And, This is Ryan Murphy On The Menendez Brothers, The Kennedys, and Kim Kardashian

Summary

This is Gavin Newsom: Episode Summary Featuring Ryan Murphy

Episode Title: And, This is Ryan Murphy On The Menendez Brothers, The Kennedys, and Kim Kardashian
Release Date: July 21, 2025
Host: Gavin Newsom
Guest: Ryan Murphy, Prolific Writer, Producer, and Director

In this engaging episode of "This is Gavin Newsom," Governor Gavin Newsom sits down with renowned television creator and producer Ryan Murphy to delve into the intricacies of his latest projects, including "The Menendez Brothers," discussions surrounding The Kennedys, and collaborations with high-profile personalities like Kim Kardashian. The conversation offers listeners a behind-the-scenes look at Murphy's creative process, the challenges of producing content that resonates with diverse audiences, and the personal growth he has experienced throughout his illustrious career.

Emmy Nominations and Industry Insights

Gavin Newsom opens the discussion by inquiring about Ryan Murphy's experiences with Emmy nominations, drawing parallels between the award ceremonies and major sporting events.

Gavin Newsom (03:07): "Where do you even hang out on an Emmy nomination day? Or are you just acting humble, saying it's the work?"

Ryan Murphy reflects on his journey from early nominations to leading a company now boasting its 350th Emmy nomination, expressing both humility and a lingering competitive spirit.

Ryan Murphy (03:31): "I found that out later, but it put it in perspective. It’s all a blessing, but I'm oddly very competitive. It is."

He likens the Emmys, Oscars, and Grammys to his personal athletic events, emphasizing the relentless drive that fuels his success.

Ryan Murphy (05:22): "The Oscars and the Emmys and the Grammys were my Super Bowl, my World Series."

Balancing Volume and Quality in Production

Gavin probes into the pressures Ryan Murphy faces in managing multiple projects simultaneously while maintaining creative quality.

Gavin Newsom (08:19): "How do you balance the creative, the artists at the same time, the commercial with everything?"

Ryan Murphy discusses the challenges of operating a volume-based business, where not every project can be a hit, and the emotional toll of seeing some endeavors fall short.

Ryan Murphy (08:19): "You can't realize everything can be a hit. Some things aren't going to work and they're going to break your heart."

Despite these challenges, Murphy highlights his strategic approach to project management, delegating certain successful franchises to trusted collaborators.

Deep Dive into "The Menendez Brothers" and The Kennedys

A significant portion of the conversation centers around "The Menendez Brothers," a project that garnered substantial global attention upon its release. Gavin Newsom and Ryan Murphy explore the complexities of portraying true crime stories with sensitivity and depth.

Ryan Murphy (27:00): "I was very surprised initially that the brothers spoke out so vociferously against it."

Murphy elaborates on the unexpected backlash and subsequent support from the Menendez brothers, illustrating the unpredictable nature of public reception.

Ryan Murphy (27:54): "I was very surprised that I flipped, that you flipped, and I really did flip."

The discussion extends to the broader implications of representing historical tragedies, with Murphy contemplating the ethical responsibilities of storytellers in shaping public perception.

Influence of Personal Beliefs and Growth

Their dialogue also touches upon Ryan Murphy's personal evolution, particularly his shift in perspective regarding the parole of the Menendez brothers. Influenced by conversations with advocates like Kim Kardashian, Murphy reveals how his views have transformed through open dialogue and increased awareness of mental health issues.

Ryan Murphy (39:26): "If they can come out of prison and actually serve some good, I think that's a powerful thing."

Gavin Newsom shares his own challenges and responsibilities as a public figure involved in the parole process, discussing the delicate balance between public sentiment and judicial criteria.

Gavin Newsom (40:48): "Why has society benefited with them being released?"

Navigating Controversies and Public Opinion

The episode delves into how Ryan Murphy handles criticism and backlash, particularly when tackling sensitive subjects. He emphasizes the importance of listening to diverse viewpoints and adapting projects based on constructive feedback.

Ryan Murphy (15:37): "I'm thankful for the criticism because if you're smart, you listen to critical voices and you say, okay, let's fix it."

Murphy reflects on the importance of authenticity and the challenges of staying true to one's vision amidst external pressures.

Future Projects and Creative Vision

Looking ahead, Ryan Murphy shares insights into his upcoming slate of projects, including the highly anticipated "Monsters Season 3" featuring Ed Gein and collaborations with Kim Kardashian on mental health advocacy. He highlights his continuous quest to explore new genres and narratives, driven by a passion for storytelling that challenges and engages audiences.

Ryan Murphy (34:04): "It's a point of view, like, trying to relax here."

Conclusion

In this thought-provoking episode, Gavin Newsom and Ryan Murphy engage in a candid conversation that not only sheds light on the complexities of producing impactful television but also underscores the importance of resilience, adaptability, and empathy in both personal and professional realms. Listeners gain a deeper appreciation for the art of storytelling and the nuanced considerations that shape meaningful narratives in today's media landscape.

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Notable Quotes:

• Ryan Murphy (03:31): "I was thrilled for people like Javier Bardem, who's a legend... it's a dopamine buzz."
• Ryan Murphy (08:19): "You can't realize everything can be a hit. Some things aren't going to work and they're going to break your heart."
• Ryan Murphy (27:54): "I was very surprised that I flipped, that you flipped, and I really did flip."
• Gavin Newsom (40:48): "Why has society benefited with them being released?"
• Ryan Murphy (15:37): "I'm thankful for the criticism because if you're smart, you listen to critical voices and you say, okay, let's fix it."

This episode offers a compelling blend of personal anecdotes, professional insights, and reflective discussions, making it a must-listen for fans interested in the intersection of politics, entertainment, and social issues.

Transcript

[Sarah Spain]

This is an iHeart podcast join iHeartradio and Sarah Spain in celebrating the one year anniversary of iHeart Women's Sports. With powerful interviews and insider analysis. Our shows have connected fans with the heart of women's Sports. In just one year, the network has launched 15 shows and built a community united by passion podcasts that amplify the voices of women in sports. Thank you for supporting iHeart women's sports and our founding sponsors E L F Beauty, Capital One and Novartis. Just open the free iHeart app and search iHeart Women's Sports to listen now. So what happened at Chappaquiddick? Well, it really depends on who you talk to. There are many versions of what happened in 1969 when a young Ted Kennedy drove a car into a pond and left a woman behind to drown. Chappaquiddick is a story of a tragic death and how the Kennedy machine took control. Every week we go behind the headlines and beyond the drama of America's royal family. Listen to United States of Kennedy on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast or wherever you get your podcast.

[Ryan Murphy]

What would you do if one bad.

[Sarah Spain]

Decision forced you to choose between a maximum security prison or the most brutal boot camp designed to be hell on Earth?

[Ryan Murphy]

Unfortunately for Mark Lombardo, this was the choice he faced.

[Gavin Newsom]

He said, you are a number, a New York State number, and we own you.

[Sarah Spain]

Listen to Shock incarceration on the iHeartRadio, Apple, Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome to Pretty Private with ebony, the podcast where silence is broken and stories are set free. I'm Ebony and every Tuesday I'll be sharing all new anonymous stories that would challenge your perceptions and give you new insight on the people around you. Every Tuesday, make sure you listen to Pretty Priority from the Black Effect Podcast Network. Tune in on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. Your entire identity has been fabricated. Your beloved brother goes missing without a trace. You discover the depths of your mother's illness. I'm Dani Shapiro and these are just a few of the powerful stories I'll be mining on our upcoming 12th season of Family Secrets. We continue to be moved and inspired by our guests and their courageously told stories. Listen to Family Secrets Season 12 on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Gavin Newsom]

This is Gavin Newsom from Gleed and Nip Tuck Monsters the Lyle and Eric Menendez Story, one of the most prolific writers, producer and directors in Hollywood today. This is Ryan Murphy so Let me get a window into your day. Okay, Speaking of windows.

[Ryan Murphy]

Ready?

[Gavin Newsom]

I mean, where do you even hang out on an Emmy nomination day? Is that. I mean, or is this old hat for you and you just, you know, it's nice. You act humble, you say, yeah, it's the work. We just put it out. If it's well received, I'm honored. Or do you sit there with your cell phone and assistants and just bated breath waiting for the Emmy stuff to come out?

[Ryan Murphy]

It's funny because I used to do that. I. I started. I had my first emmy nomination in 2003 for directing the pilot of Nip Tuck. I would say through Nip Tuck, Glee, American Horror story, even people versus O.J. like, I was. You know, they used to do it at 5:30 in the morning, and now they. They mercifully moved it to 8:30, be on the New York newscast. So I used to be up at the crack of dawn, and I would sit there and I'd pace and, you know, have my coffee and worry. The interesting thing about it is today my company received its 350th Emmy nomination, which. Which was a big number for me because I've only been doing this for, like, 21 years. So I found that out later. But that put it in perspective. No, what happened is I went to bed and I thought, I'm gonna wake up. I'm gonna wake up. And then I woke up, and then I forgot, and then I remembered, and I turned off my phone and I went to the live feed, and I just watched them come in, and I wrote down all the different ones that my company got. And, you know, for me, at this point, it's all gravy, but I was thrilled. I was thrilled for, like, people like, you know, Javier Bardem, who's a legend. I think it's his first Emmy nomination. And, you know, Cooper Koch, who plays Eric Menendez, first Emmy nomination. So for the people who are, you know, first time at bat, it's amazing. And then you call everybody. Yeah, it's a very strange feeling to go from, like, the underdog to the institution. So you say, does it. Like, it's just. It's all a blessing, you know, and I feel happy about it, but I'm oddly very competitive. Like, it is.

[Gavin Newsom]

Yeah, it matters, right?

[Ryan Murphy]

Like, for me, you're probably a sports guy. You know, sports. Like, so the Oscars and the Emmys and the Grammys were my super bowl, my World Series. So it's. It's. It's a childhood thing.

[Gavin Newsom]

And when you Say underdog. You mean you're still that guy just starting out, and that was. I mean, so you still have that person.

[Ryan Murphy]

I mean, you know, when I first started out, it was a really different time in our culture. And the stuff that I was writing was pretty boundary pushing. And I was always told it was never gonna go, you were never gonna get anywhere. So then when it would click and it would be a hit, I would always be surprised, but people would write, you know, underdog, Underdog, New, new kid, new kid in town. I'm no longer the new kid. I'm old. I have three children. And. But it is still a thrill. I'm always shocked where it's like, it's a dopamine buzz.

[Gavin Newsom]

Yeah.

[Ryan Murphy]

And also, sometimes you don't get in, like. And I also. I have those years. But to make it into the big three race, comedy, drama, limited, It's. It's a thrill.

[Gavin Newsom]

And what is. I mean, over the years, how much pressure? Because it is. It's unbelievable how many projects you're working on at the same time. How many projects have been under the belt, et cetera. And the success, obviously you've had, but I mean, how about the pressure you put on yourself to constantly. I mean, you're competing against this guy, Ryan Murphy, like, you got. You're competing against yourself. You're only as good as your next film, your next. This, your next. Or do you feel like that? Or is this just all gravy? And you're like, man, I got nothing to prove.

[Ryan Murphy]

You know, for me, I just got named into the hall of Fame and the ceremony's in the middle of August, and, like, you know, for my business, that's kind of all right. You did it. So, like, why am I still chasing the carrot? You know, I got the carrot. I don't feel that way anymore. I used to sweat every award nomination and every ratings point, and now I, you know, I really just do one new thing every quarter. Maybe one and a half every quarter. Right now I'm working on six shows. I have six shows coming out starting in September, one a month. And, you know, if you're.

[Gavin Newsom]

And that's not one in every quarter.

[Ryan Murphy]

I'm just talking about since the hall of fame.

[Gavin Newsom]

Oh, okay.

[Ryan Murphy]

This is pre hall of fame. I had something to prove. Yeah, okay. But, you know, I have something coming out in September, October, November. I have a very big slate. But moving forward, I'm just kind of. You know, my kids are young, and I'm just trying to concentrate more on my family and all the things I'm working on, I'm just fascinated by. But when you're in the volume business, you have to realize you can't, you know, not everything can be a hit. Some things aren't going to work and they're going to break your heart, but show business breaks your heart. You know, only mentally disturbed people go into people just like politics. Only if you were a usually unloved child would you go into needing that.

[Gavin Newsom]

Kind of early childhood trauma. Not enough hugs from mom.

[Ryan Murphy]

I mean, that's how I feel. With enough psychiatry. Yeah, that's why I don't go.

[Gavin Newsom]

I don't want to go to therapy. I don't want to know.

[Ryan Murphy]

I don't want to know. But I went through that like, oh, yeah, this hole's never going to be filled up, so it doesn't really matter. I just like that I'm able to. I have a very large company and just so many thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of jobs that I'm able to create like that in my dotage is the thing that I'm actually the most excited about.

[Gavin Newsom]

When you say volume business, I mean, that is the business, or it's become the business, or it's the side of the business that you want to pull back from and just focus on quality. Or is it quality and quantity? I mean, how do you balance the creative, the artists at the same time, the commercial with everything?

[Ryan Murphy]

It's funny, when I started off, I would go. I started off as a journalist, so I moved to California. And I think I told you this years ago when we first met. Like, I was paid. If I didn't do three stories a day, I would not be paid for the week. And I had to do 15 stories a week to get a paycheck. And I was young and living up coffee and cigarettes. And so I've never understood the concept of writer's block. I was lucky in that I had that journalistic training. Like, you just write through it. And when I started off, I would do like one thing, but I had so many interests and like, in my journalistic days, I would cover so much territory, you know, and you're working for the Miami Herald. You work in LA Times, Washington Times.

[Gavin Newsom]

And what was the.

[Sarah Spain]

What was the.

[Gavin Newsom]

Johnny, was it in the. In what. What was. You're not doing sports, you weren't necessarily doing daily news. What were you doing primarily, or.

[Ryan Murphy]

I started off as a crime reporter.

[Gavin Newsom]

Crime, that's it.

[Ryan Murphy]

You know, I. I started off in journalism when the purple section of USA Today came about. The Life section. So I was going to be a journalist, and there weren't a lot of people specializing in being culture reporters. So in college, I started to do that. But when I came out to la, I was covering everything from crime, the riots, to the Zsa Zsa Gabor trial. It was very bizarre. But, you know, I was just, like, in my car driving around, trying to find stories. And from that, I developed a lot of interests and my business, you know, I start my day very early and I do editing and story meetings, and then I put the kids to bed and I stay up till 1:30 or 2 in the morning preparing for the next meeting. So when I walk into a room, I'm not somebody who says, well, what do you think? I'm like, okay, well, this is what we're doing. Because I'm being paid to have a vision. And also, at this point, I have enough hours structurally to figure out. It's not that I don't take input, because I do. But my job is to have people want to be led, as you know, they want to be following a direction.

[Gavin Newsom]

Right.

[Ryan Murphy]

Um, so my business now is there's some things that are just really big commercial hits in my company that I have other people run. Like Tim Manier, my great friend, runs the 911 franchises. The only thing my older child likes that I've ever done. 911 Nashville, we're starting 911 Nashville. Comes on in September. Yep. And then I do. It's crazy, the things I do. Like, it's all over the map. I have a show on Netflix called Monsters that I love. I have other things I'm developing for fx. I'm doing this thing called the Beauty with Jeremy Pope and Evan Peters and Rebecca hall and Anthony Ramos. That's kind of a sci fi show, which I've never done before. A lot of action, which I've never done before. Then I'm doing the jfk. Carolyn Bassett.

[Gavin Newsom]

Yes, you are. And next, what?

[Ryan Murphy]

February comes out on Valentine's Day. I've been dodging a lot of heat for that.

[Gavin Newsom]

How do you. By the way? I don't even want to go down that rabbit hole, but. But, yeah, I mean.

[Sarah Spain]

Right.

[Gavin Newsom]

The family, you know, and consultant or something. How do you. How do you even. How do you process that?

[Ryan Murphy]

I tie it. I try to have some humility about it. You know, for example, on that show, and I haven't really spoken about this. You know, when you're starting a show based on a famous person, you're usually able to, for a couple days Say, well, let's try that and let's try this and let's try that. And then you look at the dailies and you adjust, Right. It used to be that you shot the first episode and then you went down and you corrected everything, and then you went back up. It was called Pilots. They don't do that anymore.

[Gavin Newsom]

Yeah, great point.

[Ryan Murphy]

So that show was the double whammy of, you know, we were shooting a couple things, and I guess it's a blessing that people went absolutely apeshit crazy about, you got the purse wrong, you got the hair wrong. So it would be stupid not to listen to that.

[Gavin Newsom]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Ryan Murphy]

You know, and I looked at it. I'm like, yeah, they're right. We should not have Carolyn Bessette. Our actress, Rebecca Pigeon had black hair. It's a lot to ask an actress with dark hair to go blonde. And so I was trying to do wigs and work around that, but finally I was like, you know, we have to. We have to. Sarah Pigeon, we have to. We have to dye your hair. So it's not going to work. So we corrected that. And then the thing that I was not prepared for was sort of the Kennedy firestorm. Right. Which I thought was very strange because nobody's read anything. It's very sympathetic, by the way. So it's a love story. It's not a takedown. It's a story about youth taken too soon and idealism, things that we need more in politics. JFK Jr. Was probably going to be on that path of his father understatement. So it's a tragedy. So then you have a member of the family speaking out. And I took it with a grain of salt. It's a younger generation. But I will say in finality about that project, There've been over 88 things, movies and television shows about the Kennedys. Not one has ever been authorized by the family. I never even thought they wanted to do that. So ours is based on a book that's very sympathetic to both people, with Paul and Sarah playing their hearts out. So that was an odd, dark moment for me where I've never.

[Gavin Newsom]

That criticism hurt.

[Ryan Murphy]

I thought it was an odd choice to be mad about your. Your relative that you really don't remember, I think. But you know this from being in the public eye yourself. Like, the days of civil discourse are over, no doubt. And it's very hard. And you kind of either get into the muck or you try and rise above it. Yeah, I found that hard to do, but I did it. And I just have a better attitude about it, I think, than I did before I started. And, you know, but I'm also thankful for the criticism because if you're smart, you listen to critical voices and you say, okay, let's great. And we fixed it. We, we, we rolled up our sleeves and we listened to people and corrected it. And I like doing that.

[Gavin Newsom]

What does feeling safe at home really mean to you? For many it might seem that having.

[Ryan Murphy]

Good locks and maybe an alarm that.

[Gavin Newsom]

Would, you know, make a lot of.

[Sarah Spain]

Noise if somebody actually broke in. True security takes more a system that.

[Gavin Newsom]

Works to prevent that break in, that violation of your space from ever happening.

[Ryan Murphy]

In the first place.

[Sarah Spain]

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[Gavin Newsom]

It's about security that is proactive, not just reactive.

[Sarah Spain]

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[Ryan Murphy]

Stop break ins before they happen.

[Gavin Newsom]

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[Sarah Spain]

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[Gavin Newsom]

Proactively deterring crime before it starts.

[Ryan Murphy]

No contracts, no hidden fees.

[Sarah Spain]

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[Gavin Newsom]

By Newsweek and USA Today.

[Sarah Spain]

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[Ryan Murphy]

A new system with a professional monitoring plan and get your first month free.

[Sarah Spain]

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[Ryan Murphy]

Be mad at me.

[Sarah Spain]

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[Gavin Newsom]

See, but you take on these projects that, by definition, everyone feels very attached.

[Ryan Murphy]

And connected, which I'm stupid, because I never think that, like, I'm. Like what? Like what? I'm. I'm. I always am drawn to things that I guess are naturally provocative, but I don't think of them as being that. And then I put them out, and people have huge opinions of them, and I'm always like, wait, what? I don't understand. But that's a blessing and a curse, you know?

[Gavin Newsom]

And is this. I mean, is it you? Is it a team of people said, hey, Ryan, I got this great idea. You know, it's been a few years since Jackie or this or that. I mean, Menendez, where there was a couple things that weren't, here's a new angle. Or is it you. You just, you know, you're constantly absorbing, and you're sort of picking. I mean, your ability to sort of this intersection of how you're able to pull genres and sort of connect dots that other people are seeing. Is that. Is that you or is that the team you've assembled? And is that expression as it relates to your leadership, your ability to sort of create the conditions where this kind of creativity formats?

[Ryan Murphy]

Well, first and foremost, you know, I have amazing collaborators, many of whom I've had for many years, like, you know, Brad Simpson and Nina Jacobson, who did Versace and OJ with me and Pose with me, and Ian Brennan, who does all of the monster scripts, is one of the most brilliant, if not the most brilliant writers I've ever worked with. I work with Max Winkler, who is Henry Winkler's son, who's an amazing collaborator. Many, many people. But it really kind of my world. My company starts with me saying, hey, I'm interested in that.

[Gavin Newsom]

In that.

[Ryan Murphy]

And then I assemble people and we have points of view. Sometimes I'm very hands on. Sometimes I'm more like, well, you write a script and show it to me and I'll give you thoughts. But anything that I make, I have really big opinions on because I'm passionate about it. About it.

[Gavin Newsom]

And if over the years, have you learned through trial and error the things you weren't passionate about were reflected negatively in the outcome?

[Ryan Murphy]

Oh, yeah.

[Gavin Newsom]

I mean that truly.

[Ryan Murphy]

Oh, yeah.

[Gavin Newsom]

Like, you just. That was. It showed.

[Ryan Murphy]

Well, the biggest bomb I ever had was a sitcom. I've really only had one or two misfires in my career.

[Gavin Newsom]

Just that one NBC thing. Right.

[Ryan Murphy]

You're so.

[Gavin Newsom]

Yeah, but that was it.

[Ryan Murphy]

That was it.

[Gavin Newsom]

One year, one season.

[Ryan Murphy]

Yes. The other ones, I've made the decision. Okay, that's not for me. Maybe I don't want to keep doing it because, you know, in my contract, I can make those decisions now.

[Gavin Newsom]

Right.

[Ryan Murphy]

But, yeah, I made a thing called the New Normal because I'm like, you know what? These Modern Family guys are raking in the dough with this half hour. I want to try a half hour sitcom. And I tried it, and I loved the talent, particularly Andrew Rannells, who loosely played me. You know, Ellen Barkin was amazing in it. Justin Bartha was amazing in it. And I got somebody like Max Winkler. That was the first time I worked with him. But it just was not me. It wasn't. I don't think it was dark enough or my comedy tends to be much more sardonic or sarcastic. And it's a family show, you know.

[Gavin Newsom]

Right.

[Ryan Murphy]

I learned, like, no.

[Gavin Newsom]

And was that chasing, as you say, back to the competitor in you.

[Ryan Murphy]

Yeah.

[Gavin Newsom]

You were chasing competition or was it chasing money? Success in that respect? Both. What, when you look back.

[Ryan Murphy]

Well, it was two things. Like, I mean, the big comedy of that time that was dealing with, you know, provocative issues was Modern Family. And I was a big fan of that show. And I knew those guys from award show circuits because it was always us, them versus Glee. But I wanted the money, to be honest. Like, I was like, you know, there's nothing better than to have a half hour that works, you know? Cause. But back then, is that where.

[Gavin Newsom]

That's where that was where the pre.

[Ryan Murphy]

Streaming, you could, you know, syndicate it forever.

[Gavin Newsom]

I love it.

[Ryan Murphy]

And that was always one of the holy grails of show business. This thing that Norman Lear told me.

[Gavin Newsom]

Yeah.

[Ryan Murphy]

Who I was friends with. He Said, kid, get a half hour.

[Gavin Newsom]

Get a.

[Ryan Murphy]

And I was like, okay. I tried, and I just couldn't do it. I had a great collaborator in Ali Adler, but I just could not do it. And I hated doing it. Doing it like I did was like, it wasn't me. It was just like, I had an allergy to it. And I've had other things that I've tried where I'm like, yeah, maybe I'll pick it up down the road. This wasn't the right fit for me. Right.

[Gavin Newsom]

Right. What? On the flip side, just something that just, you know, you didn't expect, but you just. That popped.

[Ryan Murphy]

That got so many things. I mean, almost all of my big hits were. And I've had a handful, more than a handful, are things that people said, this will never work.

[Gavin Newsom]

Yeah.

[Ryan Murphy]

And I had great mentors in Dana Walden, who we were talking about, and John Landgraaf and Ted Sarandos, for example. Glee was told it was a horrible show by people in that company. But Dana stuck. What stuck with that American Horror Story. Everyone is like, what? You're going to burn down the sets at the end of the year and start over? It made no sense.

[Gavin Newsom]

Right, Right.

[Ryan Murphy]

It. It. John Landgraf was with it. Nobody. You know, I tried to get the Jeffrey Dahmer story made for a decade. Couldn't get that made. I was shocked at. That was so big. I would say almost everything that I've had that is successful. I'm surprised by.

[Gavin Newsom]

Did you know Menendez would be such a huge global. I mean, it was worldwide. Just off the charts. Right. 12 million or something within that first weekend. Down the. I don't. Those are. I mean.

[Ryan Murphy]

You know, it was interesting because I realized, like, what was the thing that made Dahmer so popular? And I think it was scary.

[Gavin Newsom]

Yeah.

[Ryan Murphy]

You know, it was your secret about the guy next door who's, you know, doing dastardly things. Menendez, I always thought was smaller because it was a Rashomon story of who done it. Like, why not who done it, but why do they do it? I was very surprised that it became such a lightning rod, literally within a day. I was very surprised initially that the brothers spoke out so vociferously against it.

[Gavin Newsom]

You didn't expect that.

[Ryan Murphy]

No. And I was very surprised where two months ago, they thanked me and said, actually, you helped us. You did a good thing. I was surprised at that. I'm always surprised at success, and I always expect failure. I guess you're that guy.

[Gavin Newsom]

It's the Irish in you.

[Ryan Murphy]

Yeah. Because, like, you know, I have always lived my life as a Catholic. I was an altar boy. Right. So my motto in my life, singing.

[Gavin Newsom]

In the choir of all things.

[Ryan Murphy]

Yes. And running cross country. Don't forget I was a jock a little bit.

[Gavin Newsom]

Forgive me.

[Ryan Murphy]

My motto in my life has been, guess what happens when the Pope dies? You get a new Pope. That's always what I have been raised to think. So if something doesn't work out, roll up your sleeves and try again. You know, when I started off, I was in a writer's group of six people. I was in two writers group. The first one, they were all much more talented than me. But the problem was they just, they gave up. They got one rejection and they literally. Psychologically, you know, you're in politics. It's hard, it's devastating when you're not chosen. You know, and in politics, like in show business, you've won big. You know that feeling where you win and you also know the feeling. Well, maybe not. I don't think you've ever really publicly lost that much. But, but you know, you've, you've had a recall efforts.

[Gavin Newsom]

I mean, it's been up to the edge.

[Ryan Murphy]

But you beat it. Yeah, we beat it. There's no.

[Gavin Newsom]

No but the loss that I haven't.

[Ryan Murphy]

Had experience that and you know, I've had friends who've run for big offices and loss and it's devastating. It's personal.

[Gavin Newsom]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Ryan Murphy]

And I guess you didn't feel that way.

[Gavin Newsom]

You felt that way, but you were resilient.

[Ryan Murphy]

I just was like, what can I learn from it? And I always take to my bed for a day. You know, I always am like I have a martini and take to my bed. But then I'm like, all right, well what are you going to do here you go on. Because the next one might be a hit. And in my case, I've been blessed enough that that's exactly what happened in my career.

[Sarah Spain]

Tired of spills and stains on your sofa? WashablesOfAs.com has your back. Featuring the Annabe Collection. The only designer sofa that's machine washable inside and out. Where designer quality meets budget friendly prices. That's right. Sofas start at just $699. Enjoy a no risk experience with pet friendly stain resistant and changeable slipcovers made with performance fabric experience cloud like comfort with high resilience foam that's hypoallergenic and never needs fluffing. The sturdy steel frame ensures longevity and the modular pieces can be rearranged anytime. Check out washablesofas.com and get up to 60% off your annabe sofa backed by a 30 day satisfaction guarantee. If you're not absolutely in love, send it back for a full refund. No return, shipping or restocking fees. Every penny back. Upgrade [e-mail] Offers are subject to change and certain restrictions may apply. What's up guys? Welcome to Agusto Papa, the go to spot for everything Musica Mexicana. We're proud Mexican Americans who live and breathe this music. We started this podcast to share and discuss our views on musica Mexicana. Whether you like Peso Pluma, Los Alres del Barranco, Ariel Camacho or Ivan Cornejo, when you get in your fields, then this podcast is for you. We Deep dive into Music Reviews First I blew my show last year. Everything was a 10 out of 10. Fashion and lifestyle inspired by the roots of musica Mexicana, the craziest controversies and Cheesemans. I don't have nothing against Puerto, you know, and I don't think Joe Peach.

[Gavin Newsom]

Should be mad at me.

[Sarah Spain]

Song and artist comparisons, competition in the scene. There is competition, there is sides to this, there's special Pluma, Double P and there's J O P Mob. I think at the end of the day, it's business, it's all competition and of course, our personal stories and opinions along the way. This isn't just a podcast, it's a movement for fans who live Musica Mexicana every single day. Listen to Augusto Papa as part of the Michael Tura Podcast Network on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi everyone, it's Janae AKA Cheekies from Cheekies and Chill Podcast and I'm launching an all new mini podcast series called Since Cere Lee Janae. Sure, I'm a singer, author, businesswoman and podcaster, but at the end of the day, I am human and that's why I'm sharing my ups and downs with you guys. Hi guys. I was sitting here recording episodes of Dear Cheekies and Cheekies and Chill and I just had to take a timeout and purge my thoughts and feelings here on Sincerely Jana because I've been so emotional lately, you guys. Whether I'm in my feels, I've just had a breakthrough with my therapist or I've just had a really deep conversation with my siblings or I'm in glam getting ready for an award show. I'm sharing my most intimate thoughts with you on the podcast. You guys know I always keep it real with you guys but this time, I'm taking it to the next level. Listen to Cheekies and chill on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Ryan Murphy]

In sitcoms, when someone has a problem, they just blurt it out and move on.

[Gavin Newsom]

Well, I lost my job and my parakeet is missing.

[Sarah Spain]

How was your day? But the real world is different.

[Ryan Murphy]

Managing life's challenges can be overwhelming. So what do we do?

[Gavin Newsom]

We get support.

[Ryan Murphy]

The Huntsman Mental Health Institute and the Ad Council have mental health resources available for you at loveyourmindtoday.org that's loveyourmindtoday.org See how much further you can go when you take care of your mental health.

[Gavin Newsom]

Hello, this is Ruthie Rogers, host of Ruthie's Table Four. Ali called me the stray dog because I would always turn up at my mate's house at mealtime.

[Ryan Murphy]

This week, I'm talking to Bono.

[Gavin Newsom]

All of my ideas about social justice, or rather the lack of it, came from my father, too.

[Ryan Murphy]

People have to have health, housing, and.

[Gavin Newsom]

Education drilled into me and his values. Listen to Ruthie's Table 4 on the.

[Ryan Murphy]

Iheartradio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Gavin Newsom]

Honestly, do you just write a list down of all these crazy ideas? You're on a trip, taking a vacation, and then you see, you know, I don't know, you see a statue of someone, you're like, I'm gonna do a movie on Marcus Aurelius or something, or Da Vinci. No one's talked about Da Vinci. And he's, you know, he's an interesting character and cat. And then 10 years later, you go back to the diary and you go, oh, yeah, what about that Da Vinci idea?

[Ryan Murphy]

I do have a little black book that it always starts off. What about? Right. I have that. I've been writing ideas down for, you know, 22 years. The motto of my career is always do the opposite of what you just did. So, for example, if you look at my fall in September, I have 911 Nashville, which is very straight up the middle. Americana. Good guys solving problems. You root for them. Heroes, right? And then I did the complete opposite of that, which then in October comes Monster Season 3, which is about Ed Gein.

[Gavin Newsom]

Yeah.

[Ryan Murphy]

Do you know I'd gain?

[Gavin Newsom]

No.

[Ryan Murphy]

Okay. Psycho was based on Ed Geen. The Lambs was based on Jesus.

[Gavin Newsom]

I don't want to watch it. Why do you want to watch all this negative stuff?

[Ryan Murphy]

I know that it's negative.

[Gavin Newsom]

You like. See, you love all that stuff. I remember by the Way the Menendez. We were having full disclosure.

[Ryan Murphy]

I think it was a lunch we did.

[Gavin Newsom]

And you start talking to me about this and you all but said, I'm sorry. You said you're sorry. And I was like, I didn't fully appreciate how right you were.

[Ryan Murphy]

I think I'm sorry. I. I'm not sure what people are going to say, but I think. I think, well, this. This is what I knew from the Menendez thing. You know, I have all. I moved to LA in 1989, so that was when you're new to a city and that double, you know. Yeah. Homicide happened soon after you felt. I was, you know, when I would see Dominique Dunne at the Chateau Marmont. And, you know.

[Gavin Newsom]

Yeah.

[Ryan Murphy]

What I was aware of is that during COVID a lot of young people on TikTok had made it a thing. And I kind of, you know, I like to be aware of what people are saying culturally. Listen, it hadn't even aired, but I think what I said to you.

[Gavin Newsom]

That's right, it hadn't even aired.

[Ryan Murphy]

If TikTok is any indication. I think people will be very interested in this. But again, I don't know. It could be a bomb.

[Gavin Newsom]

Yeah. And the reason.

[Ryan Murphy]

And I said, we'll talk, and here we are.

[Gavin Newsom]

We'll talk only because you knew cause and effect. Great. It will bring this back. There'll be conversations about their sentencing.

[Ryan Murphy]

Yeah.

[Gavin Newsom]

Ultimately led to their re sentencing.

[Ryan Murphy]

Yeah.

[Gavin Newsom]

And we're just a few weeks away. August 21st and 2nd, or I think where the pro board is going to make a decision and make a recommendation that lands on my desk.

[Ryan Murphy]

Right. Mr. Murphy, that's heavy stuff.

[Gavin Newsom]

Heavy stuff. And you know what? Intentionally. And I remember that conversation with you. I remember going back and I kept having a temptation to want to see it, but with the recognition always in the back of my mind that this thing may land on my desk. I don't want to be persuaded by something that's not in the files.

[Ryan Murphy]

Yeah, I get that. But also, I think it's interesting because when I was writing it, you know, we had an interesting writer's room where I was the one person in the room who kept saying, I'm not so sure. I don't think they should get out. I was the voice of, like, I don't know. I don't.

[Gavin Newsom]

You told me this at the lunch.

[Ryan Murphy]

I remember you saying this to me. And you know what I think that was, is I think generationally young people have a much different way of identifying and talking about and navigating abuse than we did. It's just like, I remember that trial, too. It wasn't even something you could imagine or, you know, people our age.

[Sarah Spain]

Are.

[Ryan Murphy]

Very different than younger people in terms of what they see as abuse and can talk about it. We did not.

[Gavin Newsom]

Yeah.

[Ryan Murphy]

So in a weird way, what has happened through the show is I was really, really educated a lot by the other people in the writers room and by the actors. I was astonished at how I went into something with such a predetermined point of view and came out of it at the end of it thinking, you know, where I am today is I really do think they should be released. I do think they should be paroled. And I did not think that when I started.

[Gavin Newsom]

Has that evolved very recently? Has it evolved over the course of just that discourse with friends, people observing, people that watched? Is it me? Tell me, what's been your journey in terms of coming to that conclusion?

[Ryan Murphy]

It was just a lot of things. It was. It was learning about. Listen, what happened between the Menendez brothers was between them and their two parents. And nobody else will ever know what happened. Right.

[Gavin Newsom]

Yeah.

[Ryan Murphy]

What happened to me was there was a lot of very interesting voices in my path along the way. You know, for example, one of my good friends who's the star of one of my shows coming up, Kim Kardashian. You may have heard of her, arguably the most famous woman on the face of the earth. You know, she's a very big victims rights advocate, and she's very, very smart. And she's. You know, I can't even get her on the phone to talk about our show right now because she's practicing for.

[Gavin Newsom]

The bar, and she's constantly reaching out, talking about cases, advocating for. For our fire crews that are part of our state prison. I mean, a lot of substance there.

[Ryan Murphy]

Yeah, she's an amazing person and very, very educated about this topic. And so she went. She watched the show. I sent it to her early. Cause she said, can I see this? And I sent it to her early. And she was really obsessed with it. And then went to visit them and then called me up and said, I really feel like they deserve to be paroled. And I said, why? And she talked a lot about a really interesting points of view that I had not really thought about, which is, you know, they were under 25, you know, which I think is an interesting point of view. Yeah, there's many studies that shows, you know, the prefrontal cortex for men do not fully develop until about 26. So there's that argument also. They've been modeled prisoners also. I was very moved by their family recently and how the family is so unified. And I guess it just begs the question, like, if not now, when. Like what. What benefit to society do we have by keeping them there? If they can come out of prison and actually serve some good, I think that's a powerful thing.

[Gavin Newsom]

Yeah, it's interesting. The flip side is I've had people say, what good can come from sending a message that you can kill both of your parents and be released?

[Ryan Murphy]

Sure.

[Gavin Newsom]

Why has the society benefited with them being released? Which is. I mean, it's interesting. The parole process is a much more limited process. You can't even get it. The conversation there is, have they exercised a process to rehabilitate themselves and through an independent psych evaluation and risk assessment, are they, quote, unquote, suitable for parole on the basis of in prison behavior and a series of other criteria that's well established and laid out? And so it's an almost separate. It's not almost, but it is a separate question than the broader feeling of whether or not it's the right or wrong thing. So it's an interesting. For these things. That's why for me, I didn't want to be colored or don't want to be colored by sort of the atmospheric. So I had to deal with this with Sir. Ah, Sauron.

[Ryan Murphy]

Yeah.

[Gavin Newsom]

Which was. That was. I mean, that's a whole nother. One of these days. We'll see your efforts. I want to see what you pulled together.

[Ryan Murphy]

I think the Kennedys have had enough of me, by the way.

[Gavin Newsom]

They've had enough of me.

[Ryan Murphy]

But why don't I ask you about, like, what about, you know, one of the recent Mansons, girls, Miss Pearl.

[Gavin Newsom]

Tough.

[Ryan Murphy]

How did you make that decision?

[Gavin Newsom]

Brutal. I mean, I've had multiple opportunities, and the burden opportunities, the gift depending on one's perspective to make judgments on that. There's a number of. Of the Manson folks that have been rejected by the last three governors that I rejected a few times. The last rejection was overturned by the court that felt we were. We were abusing our discretionary in our parole office. And they're tough. I mean, and it's notoriety works in both ways, right? It works absolutely for you, but it is a sword used against you at the same time. And I think that's what the Menendez, what, what, what your series did is it really elevated that conversation as well, because there are a lot of other people in prison that don't get any attention, that don't even get in front of the parole board that don't have advocates, that don't have Kim Kardashian making phone calls, that don't have their day in court, so to speak, at least the court of the parole board. And. And so it's, you know, it's trying to balance all that same time. You've got people that are releasing that have done equivalent or worse, that have spent less time.

[Ryan Murphy]

Right.

[Gavin Newsom]

Less time.

[Ryan Murphy]

It's a very. It's a very slippery slope, and it's a really hard road, and I feel for you. But, you know, I don't know, it's sort of like the penal system in this country operates differently than any other country on earth, and you have to question why. And, like, I mean, my God, if they could get out and help two people, like, isn't that worth it in some way? I don't know. Maybe I'm being too Catholic about it all, but it's. But I was astonished that I flipped, that you flipped, and I really did flip and I flipped.

[Gavin Newsom]

I don't. I don't remember how long ago that lunch was, but you were. You were definitely not there.

[Ryan Murphy]

I was not, because you asked me point blank and I said, I don't know. Well, I was very on the fence about it. And. Yeah. And also, I just think listening to people younger than you is part of the job for me at this point.

[Gavin Newsom]

Yeah.

[Ryan Murphy]

It reminds me of the General. There's a big generational shift happening in, like, Hollywood in particular, and. And also, maybe I'm just that age, but I tried to listen with an open heart and educate myself about abuse and victims, and it was an interesting process for me. And of course, I love the show so much because you asked me, why are you making this gross thing all the time?

[Gavin Newsom]

No, I backed it. Yeah. Back to. We'll get back to the Hannibal Lecter and this stuff. Like.

[Ryan Murphy]

Well, like, it's a. It's a. A. It's a point of view, like, trying to relax here.

[Gavin Newsom]

And you're making me watch this stuff. I'm trying to go to bed.

[Ryan Murphy]

I got a beautiful buzzy law show coming up with Kim Kardashian.

[Gavin Newsom]

That's what I need to be relaxed. I got enough stress in my life.

[Ryan Murphy]

Okay.

[Gavin Newsom]

And you're introducing all this additional anxiety.

[Ryan Murphy]

I know.

[Gavin Newsom]

Murder Dahmer. Seriously.

[Ryan Murphy]

See, maybe you can now with. With. You get this, what, the 21st, 22nd.

[Gavin Newsom]

Yeah.

[Ryan Murphy]

Then you can watch the Meninge Brothers over your Labor Day.

[Gavin Newsom]

I may. I'm gonna do. See if I made the right decision.

[Ryan Murphy]

You to Watch it, actually, because the thing about that show that I love, is it asked the question, are monsters made or are they born?

[Gavin Newsom]

And you're. And what is your ultimate.

[Ryan Murphy]

I think, ultimately, in the case of these two brothers, I think they were made. Made, yeah.

[Gavin Newsom]

And you think that's always the case?

[Ryan Murphy]

I think that's what I love about the show. Like, if it's very complicated, like, you can be. You know, if you think about season three, which is coming up, where Charlie Hunnam plays Ed Gein, which is not, you know, for the squeamish, but really what it is about is this was an. This was a person who was mentally ill, who was an undiagnosed schizophrenic his entire life, and not until it was too late, till he was in prison, I believe in his 50s, was he diagnosed. So it really is sort of a story about mental health and awareness.

[Gavin Newsom]

Right.

[Ryan Murphy]

That's what I love about telling those stories. I'm not in it for the blood.

[Gavin Newsom]

No, no.

[Ryan Murphy]

I'm not in it for the gore. I'm in it for, like, well, what is it? Was he made or was he born that way? Yeah, I think that that story of Ed Gein is both. He was born that way and made that way. Yeah.

[Gavin Newsom]

And are you. Do you do. I mean, so you have a team doing that research, but you're writing. I mean, you're. I mean, as you're writing this, is it coming from your own research?

[Ryan Murphy]

Yeah.

[Gavin Newsom]

Is it? I mean.

[Ryan Murphy]

I mean, on all of my shows that are, you know, true stories.

[Gavin Newsom]

Yeah.

[Ryan Murphy]

I would say based on my research. Like, I have a very large amount of. Of researchers who spin years before we write something. Like, if you look @ Ed Gein, JFK, Carolyn Bessette, we spend a lot of time, you know, because those things. What you try and do with the biopic, right, is you don't want to do a Wikipedia thing, Right. You want to find, like, the most bizarre factoids. Then you're like, oh, that. Like, yeah, yeah. You know, I remember when we were doing Dahmer, I was astonished by the fact that he and I had never heard this before, that he, in prison, would play whale noises to fall asleep. Like, you can't make that up.

[Gavin Newsom]

No.

[Ryan Murphy]

You cannot make that up.

[Gavin Newsom]

No.

[Ryan Murphy]

So I was like, well, we have to put that in. And that launched the sound of the score. Like, it's fascinating. You should watch it. You would like it. I told you, I can handle Glee. What is your favorite show on TV right now? As a pop culture guy, you Watch stuff.

[Gavin Newsom]

I watch a little stuff. Not a lot of stuff. You. You called me to say you got to watch the politician. Remember?

[Ryan Murphy]

You did that. Okay.

[Gavin Newsom]

So, yeah, you said you're gonna watch that. So I watched that.

[Ryan Murphy]

You're a Ted Lasso guy, right?

[Gavin Newsom]

I. I want. I love that. Makes me feel good, man. Like a little tear in my eye.

[Sarah Spain]

I need a lot.

[Ryan Murphy]

I appreciate that. I love that show.

[Gavin Newsom]

Yeah, right. Lasso is great.

[Ryan Murphy]

Life is. So here's the thing.

[Gavin Newsom]

It's hard, right?

[Ryan Murphy]

Well, this is my business. Does this. Right. Life is hard.

[Gavin Newsom]

Yeah.

[Ryan Murphy]

Everybody's struggling. So I think you either want to watch something that makes you forget it.

[Gavin Newsom]

Yeah.

[Ryan Murphy]

And makes you laugh and it's light, or you want something that is dark where you can put your anxiety into.

[Gavin Newsom]

I did that with O.J. i mean, that was level. Was fantastic. That was. Come on.

[Ryan Murphy]

Yeah, that was a good one.

[Gavin Newsom]

What?

[Ryan Murphy]

Not good?

[Gavin Newsom]

Was great.

[Ryan Murphy]

I love doing.

[Gavin Newsom]

Wasn't good. That was off the charts good.

[Ryan Murphy]

But again, that was like, that had been kicking around. Nobody wanted to make that. It's funny about. You think now, like, well, yeah, home run. But it's always interesting to me about what. Because when we were making it, so many people said, why are you making this to me? And I was like, I don't know. I like the story, you know?

[Sarah Spain]

Join iHeartRadio and Sarah Spain in celebrating the one year anniversary of iHeart Women's Sports. With powerful interviews and insider analysis, our shows have connected fans with the heart of women's Sports. In just one year, the network has launched 15 shows and built a community united by passion podcasts that amplify the voices of women in sports. Thank you for supporting iHeart women's sports and our founding sponsors, E L F Beauty, Capital One and Novartis. Just open the free iHeart app and search iHeart Women's Sports to listen now. So what happened to Chappaquiddick? Well, it really depends on who you talk to. There are many versions of what happened in 1969 when a young Ted Kennedy drove a car into a pond and left a woman behind to drown. Chappaquiddick is a story of a tragic death and how the Kennedy machine took control. Every week we go behind the headlines and beyond the drama of America's royal family. Listen to United States of Kennedy on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast.

[Ryan Murphy]

What would you do if one bad.

[Sarah Spain]

Decision forced you to choose between a maximum security prison or the most brutal boot camp designed to be hell on earth?

[Ryan Murphy]

Unfortunately, For Mark Lombardo, this was the choice he faced.

[Gavin Newsom]

He said, you are a number, a New York State number, and we own you.

[Sarah Spain]

Listen to Shock incarceration on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome to Pretty Private with ebony, the podcast where silence is broken and stories are set free. I'm Ebony and every Tuesday I'll be sharing all new anonymous stories that will challenge your perceptions and give you new insight on the people around you. Every Tuesday, make sure you listen to Pretty Private from the Black Effect Podcast Network. Tune in on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. I'm Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford, host of the Therapy for Black Girls podcast. I know how overwhelming it can feel if flying makes you anxious. In session 418 of the Therapy for Black Girls podcast, Dr. Angela Neal Barnett and I discuss flight anxiety. What is not normal is to allow it to prevent you from doing the things that you want to do, the things that you were meant to do. Listen to Therapy for Black Girls on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. This is an I Heart podcast.