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- [00:00]
Katherine Townsend
This is an I Heart Podcast. Over the years of making my true crime podcast Hell and Gone, I've learned no town is too small for murder. I'm Katherine Townsend. I've heard from hundreds of people across the country with an unsolved murder in their community. I was calling about the murder of my husband.
- [00:19]
Gavin Newsom
The murder is still out there.
- [00:21]
Katherine Townsend
Each week I investigate a new case. If there is a case we should Hear about, call 678-744-6145. Listen to Helen Gone Murderline on the iHeartRadio Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Stay informed, empowered and ahead of the curve with a Bi N News this Hour podcast updated hourly to bring you the latest stories shaping the black community. From breaking headlines to cultural milestones, the Black Information Network delivers the facts, the voices and the perspectives that matter 247 because our stories deserve to be heard. Listen to the BI N News this Hour podcast on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcast. I also want to address the Tonys. On a recent episode of Checking in with Michelle Williams, I open up about feeling snubbed by the Tony Awards. Do I? I was never mad. I was disappointed because I had high hopes to hear this. And more on disappointment and Protecting youg Peace. Listen to Checking in with Michelle Williams from the Black Effect Podcast Network on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. In our new podcast, Everybody's Business, we talk about the business news that concerns everybody. From Bloomberg Business Week, I'm Stacey Vanek Smith.
- [01:44]
Leon Panetta
And I'm Max Chavkin.
- [01:45]
Katherine Townsend
Each week we unpack what is happening on Main street and Wall street, all the streets. WrestleMania has taken over the US economy. Poetry that executives write on LinkedIn. A little actual magic in our underrated story of the week. The single greatest marketing campaign the music business has ever seen. I decided to ask people how they felt about the penny going away list. Everybody's business wherever you get your podcasts.
- [02:10]
Gavin Newsom
We are telling our scientists today we.
- [02:14]
Katherine Townsend
Have disdain for your expertise. And then you have China as an exception saying, actually, we're going to invest a trillion dollars in new science. You heard that right. While the US Is slashing science budgets, China is doubling down. This means here in the United States, less innovation, fewer breakthroughs, and falling behind on the global stage. This week on Dope Labs, Chelsea Clinton breaks down what these cuts really mean. Listen to Dope labs on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you podcasts.
- [02:49]
Gavin Newsom
This is Gavin Newsom and this is secretary Leon Panetta. Mr. Secretary, thanks for taking the time to be with us. And as a fellow Californian, it seems appropriate that I, I start here. We have so many topics to discuss. Obviously many issues going on that are radically evolving in real time overseas. But one thing that continues to evolve in a very remarkable and meaningful way here in our own state of California in Los Angeles, is the deployment of close to 5,000 military personnel. In fact, last count was 4,946 formerly National Guard, now federalized and active duty US Marines that have been deployed to the streets of Los Angeles. But Mr. Secretary, what's remarkable to me, and this is where I want to begin with you, is only a very small percentage have been mission tasked. The rest quite literally are sitting around waiting for assignments. Thousands and thousands of former National Guard men and women that were working to do drug interdiction, working on the border on behalf of the state, including many of them working for other state agencies in law enforcement have been federalized. And I'm curious your thoughts about what you've seen in Los Angeles. Your own reflection. As a former Secretary of Defense, former Chief of Staff, did you ever imagine thousands and thousands of men and women being federalized against the wills of a governor of a home state?
- [04:33]
Leon Panetta
No. First of all, thank you for having me as part of your podcast here. It's good to be with you, Gavin. Look, I have a very different approach here. As former member of Congress, former Director of the CIA, and former Secretary of Defense, I think it's very important for this country to respect the role of the military. And the role of the military is basically to defend this country from foreign adversaries. And throughout our history, we've been very clear that, that the role of the military ought not to be used for law enforcement purposes. And I believe in that because, frankly, we need the military to protect our national security. The President just used our military to conduct an attack in Iran. That's what the military is about. That's what they're trained to do. And we have to respect that role. And if we do anything to politicize the role of the military, it basically weakens our national security and weakens our national defense. So I think that there are some real concerns about the politicalization of our military and particularly the activation of our National Guard here in California. It raises real concerns about whether or not politics are being played. I really do believe that this country deeply trusts our military because they protect our national security. I hope we can stick to that role.
- [06:35]
Gavin Newsom
Well, I certainly appreciate that, and it's interesting, just recently in Los Angeles, we had some of the most destructive wildfires in U.S. history. And we deployed roughly 3,000 of our national Guard men and women. They were there on the scene, quite literally. They had pre positioned these rattlesnake teams. They were doing some defensive work on vegetation management before the fires erupted. And thousands were deployed within hours and days to protect and support our law enforcement, obviously our firefighters, but also keep the peace. They're extraordinary young men and women. And to see them used in this way is, is remarkable as much as it is demoralizing, not just for those of us in positions that we share, but, but for them themselves. I mean, this is not what they signed up for, to be in this position.
- [07:32]
Leon Panetta
That's exactly right. Look, our National Guard has been extremely important, very important element again to our national security. During the time we were conducting the war on terror, the National Guard was actually being deployed and activated abroad to try to help in the war against Al Qaeda and terrorism. And that's what the National Guard is all about. Obviously, governors like yourself have a responsibility to be able to activate the National Guard when they're needed, as you did, certainly with regards to the fires in California, and certainly with regards to other areas where you feel it's necessary. And that is what the National Guard is for. When a president comes in and basically activates them for what I believe are more political purposes than purposes related to protecting the public's interest, then as I said, it undermines trust not just in our way of government, it undermines trust in the fundamental role of the National Guard and our military. So I'm very concerned about this. I think we have to continue to hold the line, do the right thing, make sure that we're making the right decisions, and ultimately I think we will get back to using the National Guard the way they're supposed to be used. Because that is what the men and women in the National Guard, that's why they joined, is to be able to be deployed pursuant to the law, not against the law. You're here.
- [09:30]
Gavin Newsom
Well, I appreciate that sentiment. And we're doing what we can, not only to exercise our moral authority as it relates to calling that out and trying to organize a larger consciousness. This is, by the way, not about California, the order that initiated this as a national order. The President, United States now can move freely on the basis of this action, to do the same on a whim, with any modest protest that law enforcement, local law enforcement can easily address, and now can look to weaponize the Guard. But I'm curious. You, I'm sure, saw the president's speech at Fort Bragg, so much attention a few days later was placed on the military parade. And I'm curious your thoughts on that. And I think good people can view that through very different lenses. But the Fort Bragg speech, I think, underscores Mr. Secretary, some of your comments. In this case, not the National Guard, but men and women in uniform, active military personnel, hooting and hollering, booing, former president, the current governor, California, other elected officials. At the same time, the President, United States, as he was giving a speech, was selling Trump campaign merchandise. I. I don't want to tee up a softball for you, but I imagine, again, it's a former CIA director, not just former Secretary of defense and chief of staff and former member of Congress. You ever seen anything like that?
- [11:07]
Leon Panetta
Look, obviously, we live in unique times with a president who doesn't necessarily respect all of the values that past presidents, whether they're Republican or Democrat, have always respected. When he turns, when he has that kind of speech, which is basically a political rally with our men and women in uniform, in many ways, he's demeaning their role. And you know what bothers me is that I believe the President of the United States, as commander in chief, is responsible for protecting our national security. And the way you protect our national security is by deploying our men and women where you need them in order to ensure that we protect our. Our democracy. That's why they're there. That's why we train them. That's why they go into the military. This is a volunteer force. They go in because they want to basically help defend this country. I've looked into their eyes in Iraq and Afghanistan and elsewhere, and these are young men and women who are prepared to fight and die for our country. And they will respond to the order of a commander in chief when necessary. In order to help defend this country. The President needs to respect that role. The President of the United States needs to respect the role of our men and women in uniform, not use them for political purposes, not politicize their mission, not have a political rally at a military post, but give them the respect that they're due, which is that their primary role is to defend this country from foreign adversaries and not use them as if somehow he's an autocrat who would just basically use the military to protect his power. That is a misuse of the responsibility of commander in chief.
- [13:39]
Gavin Newsom
What does feeling safe at home really mean to you? For many, it might seem that having good locks and maybe an alarm that would, you know, make a lot of noise if somebody actually broke in. True security takes more a system that works to prevent that break in, that violation of your space from ever happening in the first place. SimpliSafe is trusted to protect homes and families. It's about security that is proactive, not just reactive. Most security systems only take action after someone breaks in that's too late. SimpliSafe's new Active Guard Outdoor Protection helps stop break ins before they happen. AI powered cameras plus live monitoring agents detect suspicious activity around your property. If someone's lurking, agents talk to them in real time, turn on spotlights and can call the police proactively deterring crime before it starts. No contracts, no hidden fees. Named Best Home security system of 2025 by CNET 4 million plus Americans Trust SimpliSafe ranked number one in customer service by Newsweek and USA Today Monitoring plans start around $1 a day, 60 day money back guarantee. Visit simplisafe.com Gavin to claim 50% off a new system with a professional monitoring plan and get your first month free. That's simplisafe.com Gavin there's no safe like.
- [15:03]
Leon Panetta
Simplisafe if you run an e commerce business.
- [15:05]
Katherine Townsend
You know packages don't ship themselves, but with ShipStation it almost feels like they do. But it's not magic. It's powerful automation.
- [15:14]
Leon Panetta
ShipStation is the fastest, reliable and affordable.
- [15:17]
Katherine Townsend
Way to get products to your customers. It integrates seamlessly with services and selling channels.
- [15:22]
Leon Panetta
And because it grows with your business.
- [15:24]
Katherine Townsend
You'Ll never need to upgrade. Your customers benefit, too. Automated tracking keeps them informed every step of the way. Plus, you'll both save money.
- [15:33]
Leon Panetta
A lot of money, thanks to discounts.
- [15:35]
Katherine Townsend
Of up to 88% on rates from.
- [15:36]
Leon Panetta
Ups and Downs, DHL Express and USPS.
- [15:40]
Katherine Townsend
And up to 90% off FedEx. More than 130,000 businesses already use ShipStation.
- [15:46]
Leon Panetta
To grow their e commerce operations, and.
- [15:49]
Katherine Townsend
That number is rising fast.
- [15:50]
Leon Panetta
In fact, during the time it took me to tell you this, 1400 packages.
- [15:55]
Katherine Townsend
Were shipped using ShipStation. Ready to upgrade your shipping experience? Go to shipstation.com and use code IHEART to start your free trial.
- [16:04]
Leon Panetta
No credit card or contract required and.
- [16:06]
Katherine Townsend
You can cancel anytime. That's shipstation.com code iheart this July 4th, celebrate freedom from spills, stains and overpriced furniture with Annabe, the only machine washable sofa inside and out where designer quality meets budget friendly pricing. Sofas start at just $699, making it the perfect time to upgrade your space. Annabe's Pet Friendly. Stain resistant and interchangeable slipcovers are made with high performance fabric that's built for real life. You'll love the cloud like comfort of hypoallergenic high resilience foam that never needs fluffing and a durable steel frame that stands the test of time with modular pieces you can rearrange anytime. It's a sofa that adapts to your Life. Now through July 4th, get up to 60% off site wide@washablesofas.com Every order comes with a 30 day satisfaction guarantee. If you're not in love, send it back for a full refund. No return shipping, no restocking fees. Every penny back. Declare independence from dirty outdated furniture. Shop now@washablesofas.com Offers are subject to change and certain restrictions may apply. Over the past six years of making my true crime podcast Hell and Gone, I've learned one thing. No town is too small for murder. I'm Katherine Townsend. I've received hundreds of messages from people across the country begging for help with unsolved murders. I was calling about the murder of my husband. It's a cold case. They've never found her.
- [17:31]
Gavin Newsom
And it haunts me me to this day.
- [17:33]
Katherine Townsend
The murderer is still out there. Every week on Hell and Gone Murder Line, I dig into a new case, bringing the skills I've learned as a journalist and private investigator to ask the questions no one else is asking. Police really didn't care to even try. She was still somebody's mother.
- [17:48]
Gavin Newsom
She was still somebody's daughter.
- [17:50]
Leon Panetta
She was still somebody's sister.
- [17:51]
Katherine Townsend
There's so many questions that we've never.
- [17:54]
Leon Panetta
Gotten any kind of answers for.
- [17:56]
Katherine Townsend
If you have a case you'd like me to look into, call the Hell and Gone murder line at 678-744-6145. Listen to Helen Gone Murder line on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I know a lot of cops and they get asked all the time, have you ever had to shoot your gun? Sometimes the answer is yes. But there's a company dedicated to a future where the answer will always be no.
- [18:27]
Leon Panetta
Across the country, cops call this Taser the Revolution.
- [18:31]
Katherine Townsend
But not everyone was convinced it was that simple.
- [18:33]
Leon Panetta
Cops believed everything that Taser told them.
- [18:37]
Katherine Townsend
From Lava for good and the team that brought you Bone Valley comes a story about what happened when a multi billion dollar company dedicated itself to one visionary mission. This is Absolute Season 1 Taser Incorporated. I get right back there and it's bad. It's really, really really bad. Listen to new episodes of Absolute Season 1 Taser Incorporated on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Binge episodes 1, 2 and 3 on May 21 and episodes 4, 5 and 6 on June 4 ad free at Lava for Good plus on Apple Podcasts.
- [19:23]
Gavin Newsom
There seems to be a lack of clarity in terms of that perspective and response, particularly from Congress. You served in Congress for well, what, 16 plus years and you revere the institution. I've heard you, Mr. Secretary, on, on previous interviews talking about of all the jobs you had from OMB director to working under the Nixon administration, remarkably and office of, of Civil Rights that your time in Congress, when it worked, it was a point of deep pride and reverence. You look at Congress today, you look at the lack of oversight, checks and balances. You look at what I would refer to as the appalling silence on issues like those we just discussed. What's your assessment, where we are and how the hell do we get out of this moment?
- [20:19]
Leon Panetta
Well, I have very deep respect for our founding Fathers and what they, what they wanted in their genius to do in creating our democracy. They made very clear at the Constitutional Convention that they did not want a centralized power in any one branch of government. They didn't want a king, they didn't want a king parliament, they didn't want a star chamber court. They had seen what that was about in those times. And so they wanted to make sure that they would limit power. And the way they did that is by creating three separate but equal branches of government, each a check and balance on the other. And for 250 years, that system of checks and balances has worked pretty well. It's been threatened, it's been challenged, but it's worked pretty well. And we are now in one of those periods where our system of checks and balances is being tested. My concern right now is that the institutions they created to provide that check and balance, they themselves are being tested. Congress, unfortunately, is not standing up and really being a check in our system right now. They're basically standing back and giving the President a free ride, a blank check with regards to everything he's doing. Rather than serving as a check, rather than having the hearings that have to be done, rather than standing up and saying, no, we cannot abuse the Constitution of the United States. We swear an oath to preserve, protect and defend the Constitution. We have to stand by that. I was a believer in that as somebody in Congress who swore that oath. And I think that's what Congress has to do. That's not happening. We understand that. So the only check that's happening right now, we certainly aren't getting a check by the executive. The only check that's happening right now that's effective are the courts. And I give them a tremendous amount of credit for their willingness to stand up and to be able to uphold the rule of law. Unfortunately, as we all know, it takes time for the courts to act, and a lot of damage can be done in the interim. So I really think it's important that our system of checks and balances work. And probably the only way that's going to happen right now is the American people, because the American people are the ultimate check in a democracy that's in the Constitution. Their ability to vote, their ability to vote for elected leaders is the fundamental check in a democracy. So I remain hopeful that ultimately we will get through this because our forefathers believed that we cannot afford to centralize power, certainly in the presidency.
- [23:37]
Gavin Newsom
I appreciate it. I'm reminded, as you share those words and thoughts, of Justice Brandeis, who said, in a democracy, the most important office is office of citizen, this notion of active, not inert, citizenship. And it's reminded everybody listening of the imperative to reconcile the fact that you're not bystanders, that we have agency, that we can shape the future. And I think in so many ways, we saw that on the same day that the President was celebrating. And I certainly appreciate celebrating with the kind of reverence they deserve. The United States military in a parade. Same time, though, millions of people showed up in a no Kings rally, sort of reinforcing the framework that our Founding Fathers tried to correct or at least counter. And I think it shows that, that, you know, democracy is still alive, bottom up, if not the moment, top down.
- [24:42]
Leon Panetta
Yeah. Gavin. I often say that in my over 50 years of public life, I've seen Washington at its best, and I've seen Washington at its worst. The good news is I've seen Washington work. When I was first elected, Tip o' Neill was Speaker of the House, Democrats, Democrat from Boston, but he had a great relationship with Bob Michael, who was the minority leader from Illinois. And the basic message, of course, they had their politics, they fought each other in election, but when it came to big issues, they worked together. The message we always got is that Republicans and Democrats have to work together in order to govern the country. And we did. We did. During the Reagan administration, a Democratic Congress passed Social Security reform. That's the third rail of politics. We passed it with a bipartisan vote. We Passed immigration reform, comprehensive immigration reform, bipartisan, bipartisan vote. We passed tax reform. We dealt with the budget. We were able to, frankly, pass agreements to help bring the deficit down and discipline the federal budget and balance the federal budget, not only balance it, but get a surplus. That was done because parties were willing to work together. Today we are at a time when there's a lot of partisanship, a lot of division, a lot of unwillingness to be able to govern together. And the result is that Washington is dysfunctional and that is hurting our democracy.
- [26:23]
Gavin Newsom
On that topic, because we've explored that on the podcast, we've had a number of interesting guests and people very familiar to you. Former Speaker Newt Gingrich was on. We had an opportunity to talk to Frank Luntz. Obviously, that's very personal to you because you referenced in that list. You have a lot of receipts on that list, as personal, as personal as it is to you, not only as a former member of Congress, some of those line items you just listed, but also you were chief of staff of Bill Clinton when we had that balanced budget. You worked with Newt Gingrich across the party lines. You proved, not just asserted that we can work together across our differences, but the question that we continuing to sort of be vexed with is what the hell happened and when did it happen and who's responsible? When did things start to collapse? I mean, at the same time, it seemed to be peak partisanship. You guys were working together in the Clinton administration. You took over, I mean, I'll say with love and respect to former President Clinton, but it was rather dysfunctional office at the time. You got shellacked in the midterms. You've described the former President Clinton as being depressed in terms about his standing. And you came in and you were part of that turnaround. And you also advanced a different frame, a closed fist talk about turnaround with an open hand to partner with a Republican speaker and produce those results. But was that the moment things were advanced or was that the moment was not a setback began?
- [28:02]
Leon Panetta
It was not an easy time. As, yeah, as you pointed out, imagine, I mean, the president, President Clinton, you know, really was, Was moving forward. He had passed a very tough budget. We were passing appropriations bills. He passed family leave. He passed nafta. He passed a number of things. And then, as you all know in politics, it can come back to bite you. And it did in the midterms. And the president lost the Congress to the Republicans. And he was depressed about where his administration was going to go. And having been through these changes in my own lifetime. I told the President, look, ultimately every crisis provides an opportunity. This is a crisis. It does provide an opportunity. You need to sit down and try to see if there are areas where we can work together. Unfortunately, at the beginning, Newt Gingrich took a position. He was going to push for his own budget, cut Medicare and cut some other vital programs. The President dug in, and what the Republicans did in response was to shut the government down. The government was shut down. This is the first time the government was shut down for almost two weeks. And it backfired on the Republicans. And Newt Gitterich then, to his credit, decided maybe the better approach would be to actually try to work with the President. The President took him up on that. They were able to work together. We did some things on the budget, we did some things on health care. We were able to get things done. But that was because there was a willingness then to try to see if we could govern together, to get back to the basics of governing together. That's what needs to happen. I mean, I think in some ways I'm really offended that the President of the United States did not give a heads up to Congress on this military strike that took place in Iran. That's a responsibility of the President to be able to inform the Congress, both Republicans and Democrats, the Gang of Eight, as to what's happening with regards to our national security. Commander in Chief is deploying our men and women into harm's way. He's got to be willing to make sure that both Republicans and Democrats on the Hill are aware of what is happening. And unfortunately, that didn't take place. And I think it's a, it's a real slap in the face to how our democracy should function.
- [30:46]
Gavin Newsom
You know, interestingly, Mr. Secretary, I can attest to that just on a personal basis, because I was speaking at an event I was with, with Minority Leader Jeffries. And why, as he was walking out of the event, we all started to see on our cell phones what had just occurred. We spent an hour and a half at that event talking about every conceivable issue. And, and here it was happening in real time. And the future speaker of the House of Representatives, to your point, was not even. They didn't have any of the courtesy of a heads up. But I'm curious on, on that and going back just briefly, and I want to move off it, but I am fascinated. I mean, we talk about this dysfunction. We talk about Tip o' Neill and all the wonderful stories of o' Neill and, and Reagan working together across Their differences. You've amplified that as it relates to even Clinton and Gingrich. But was there a moment? Was, was that moment despite the fact that you were able to. They were able to persevere. And those two personalities, remarkable personalities, historic personalities, Clinton and Gingrich were able to finally find some common ground. Was that the beginning of the end, though? I mean, do you mark that as a moment where things did radically change? The government shut down. The approach Gingrich had, initial approach in terms of his relationship with the presidency and the executive.
- [32:13]
Leon Panetta
There's no question, and I've told Newt this directly, I said that what happened was that Newt was really struggling to try to get the Republicans in power and he was willing to undermine the institution of the House of Representatives in the Congress in order to get that done. He actually basically undercut almost members in his own party in order to be able to do that. And it was kind of real cutthroat approach to politics and it created some bad feelings. And look, the Democrats made their mistakes as well. And when both sides decided that rather than working together, they would get into their own trenches and basically throw grenades at one another, that really was the beginning of the end. In terms of governing, I mean, the problem is for the last 20 years, look, I tell the students at the Panetta Institute that in a democracy we govern either by leadership or by crisis. If leadership is there and willing to make tough decisions and basically reach across and try to develop consensus and compromise, we can avoid crisis. But if that leadership isn't there, then we'll govern by crisis. And I have to tell you, for the last 20 or 25 years in Washington, they've largely been governing by crisis. And that undermines trust in our basic system of governing. And that's why, very frankly, Washington is so dysfunctional right now.
- [34:03]
Katherine Townsend
This July 4th, celebrate freedom from spills, stains and overpriced furniture with Annabe, the only machine washable sofa inside and out where designer quality meets budget friendly pricing. Sofas start at just $699, making it the perfect time to upgrade your space. Annabe's pet friendly stain resistant and interchangeable slipcovers are made with high performance fabric that's built for real life. You'll love the cloud like comfort of hypoallergenic high resilience foam that never needs fluffing and a durable steel frame that stands the test of time with modular pieces you can rearrange anytime. It's a sofa that adapts to your Life. Now through July 4th, get up to 60% off site wide. @washablesofas.com Every order comes with a 30 day satisfaction guarantee. If you're not in love, send it back for a full refund. No return shipping, no restocking fees. Every penny back. Declare independence from dirty outdated furniture. Shop now@washablesofas.com Offers are subject to change and certain returns restrictions may apply. Over the past six years of making my true crime podcast Hell and Gone, I've learned one thing. No town is too small for murder. I'm Katherine Townsend. I've received hundreds of messages from people across the country begging for help with unsolved murders. I was calling about the murder of my husband. It's a cold case. They've never found her.
- [35:23]
Gavin Newsom
And it haunts me to this day.
- [35:25]
Katherine Townsend
The murderer is still out there. Every week on Helen Gone Murder line, I dig into a new case, bringing the skills I've learned as a journalist and private investigator to ask the questions no one else is asking. Police really didn't care to even try. She was still somebody's mother.
- [35:40]
Gavin Newsom
She was still somebody's daughter.
- [35:42]
Leon Panetta
She was still somebody's sister.
- [35:44]
Katherine Townsend
There's so many questions that we've never.
- [35:46]
Leon Panetta
Gotten any kind of answers for.
- [35:48]
Katherine Townsend
If you have a case you'd like me to look into, call the Helen Gone murder line at 678-744. Listen to Helen Gone Murderline on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I know a lot of cops and they get asked all the time, have you ever had to shoot your gun? Sometimes the answer is yes. But there's a company dedicated to a future where the answer will always be no.
- [36:19]
Leon Panetta
Across the country, cops call this Taser the Revolution.
- [36:23]
Katherine Townsend
But not everyone was convinced it was that simple.
- [36:25]
Leon Panetta
Cops believed everything that Taser told them.
- [36:29]
Katherine Townsend
From Lava for good and the team that brought you Bone Valley comes a story about what happened when a multi billion dollar company dedicated itself to one visionary mission. This is Absolute Season one, Taser Incorporated. I get right back there and it's bad. It's really, really, really, really bad. Listen to new episodes of Absolute Season 1, Taser Incorporated on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Binge episodes 1, 2 and 3 on May 21 and episodes 4, 5 and 6 on June 4 ad free at Lava for Good plus on Apple Podcasts. The summer of 1993 was one of the best of my life.
- [37:16]
Gavin Newsom
I'm journalist Jeff Pearlman and this is Rick Jervis. We were interns at the Nashville Tennessean. But the most unforgettable part, our roommate, Reggie Payne from Oakland, sports editor and aspiring rapper and his stage name, Sexy Sweat. In 2020, I had a simple idea. Let's find Reggie. We searched everywhere, but Reggie was gone. In February 2020, Reggie was having a diabetic episode. His mom called 911. Police cuffed him face down. He slipped into a coma and died. I'm like thanking you, but then I.
- [37:54]
Leon Panetta
See my son's not moving.
- [37:56]
Gavin Newsom
No headlines, no outrage, just silence.
- [38:01]
Leon Panetta
So we started digging and uncovered city.
- [38:03]
Gavin Newsom
Officials bent on protecting their own. Listen to finding Sexy Sweat on the.
- [38:07]
Katherine Townsend
Iheartradio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [38:13]
Gavin Newsom
What happens when we come face to face with death?
- [38:16]
Leon Panetta
My truck was blown up by a.
- [38:17]
Gavin Newsom
20 pound anti tank mine.
- [38:19]
Katherine Townsend
My parachute did not deploy. I was kidnapped by a drug cartel. I just remember everything getting dark. I'm dying.
- [38:29]
Gavin Newsom
When we step beyond the edge of.
- [38:31]
Leon Panetta
What we know, to open our consciousness.
- [38:33]
Katherine Townsend
To something more than just what's in that western box. And we turn. I clinically died. The heart stopped beating, which I was.
- [38:41]
Gavin Newsom
Dead for 11.5 minutes. My name is Dan Bush.
- [38:44]
Katherine Townsend
My mission is simple.
- [38:45]
Gavin Newsom
To find, explore and share these stories.
- [38:48]
Leon Panetta
I'm not a victim.
- [38:49]
Gavin Newsom
I'm a survivor.
- [38:50]
Leon Panetta
You're strongest when you're the most vulnerable.
- [38:52]
Katherine Townsend
To remind us what it means to be alive.
- [38:54]
Leon Panetta
Not just that I was the guy.
- [38:55]
Gavin Newsom
That cut his arm off, but I'm the guy who was smiling when he cut his arm off.
- [38:59]
Katherine Townsend
Alive Again, a podcast about the fragility of life, life, the strength of the.
- [39:04]
Gavin Newsom
Human spirit and what it means to truly live. Listen to Alive Again on the iHeartRadio.
- [39:08]
Katherine Townsend
App, Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
- [39:15]
Gavin Newsom
You know, in your remarkable career spans quite literally over half a century and continues to this day at the Panetta Institute. You know, you, you served in many different roles. Of course we reflect on the last time we had a balanced budget, even a surplus under your tutelage and ste as chief of staff in the Clinton administration. But you went on to serve in other roles and as I've referenced a moment ago, from OMB to obviously Secretary of State of Defense and CIA director. I'm curious your reflection. You know, there's been, it seems to me, an assault on knowledge, particularly at West Point. Recently there was reports, not specific, that books are being banned. Baldwin, you know, other books, well known authors, historic facts that appear to be being censored. West Point, my gosh, these are, these are the best of the best. These remarkable young cadets. And I'm just curious, you know, you were part of the sort of pulling back and don't ask, don't tell women in the military. And being able to lead, you moved in a very different direction in your leadership roles. What's your reflection of where we are now in this sort of assault on all things, quote, unquote, wokeness or DEI or even on historic facts?
- [40:40]
Leon Panetta
Well, you know, Gavin, I'm. I'm. I'm the son of immigrants, Italian immigrants, who came to this country like millions of others, and. And I can remember asking my dad, why did he come all of that distance to come to a strange land? And I never forgot his answer, which was that my mother and he believed they could give our children a better life in this country. I think that's the American dream, and that's what we want for our children. And I think to get there, we have to embrace our freedoms, not destroy our freedoms, not destroy our openness, not destroy our ability to learn from one another. We may not like what others say, but the ability to listen, the ability to have a say, the ability to enjoy different points of view is what our freedom, what the American dream is all about. I had young people who wanted to serve in the military. That's a good thing. We ought to give them that opportunity to serve. And that's what I tried to do as secretary. Regardless of their race or color or creed or sexual preference, the fact is they wanted to serve this country. And you know what? They did a damn good job serving this country. That's true for our men and women in our academies, whether it's West Point or Annapolis or others. Their ability to embrace everyone who wants to serve, to embrace our freedom, to embrace openness, to embrace what our society is all about, to embrace what democracy is all about. These are. Young people are going to put their lives on the line to basically protect our country. They need to know the importance of why they're going to fight and die for their country. And that's why they. They need to be exposed to all kinds of views. And that's what the academy has done in the past. I regret that they're getting all worked up about their approach now with regards to books and what have you. I mean, this is a throwback to, you know, the Age of Witches in Salem, for God's sakes. So it really is. It really is important. Important. And listen, we'll get beyond this. I do not consider this any kind of permanent face that's going to take place. I think this is just a moment in time, and we've seen many of those in 250 years. This is a moment in time. But ultimately we are going to get back to the values of our democracy that made us strong. There is no other way that this country can survive.
- [43:42]
Gavin Newsom
And I, I appreciate that optimism. I imagine others listening are, are that. That warms their heart. But what I mean, and, and I don't mean to be modeling. I just let me stress test it a little bit, you know, challenge you on that. I mean, it's been an extraordinary few months, this administration and I, you know, you, you served it as an OMB director. You've got a new one in there now. That, boy, these guys were. They wound up. They were ready to go. This 2025 project, there was a plan, they're executing a plan. I mean, I don't imagine. I appreciate all the work you did as OMB director, but I'm not sure you had an agenda that was this thick and this prescriptive and laid out that goes to assault these institutions. Assaults are norms and traditions. Why, why do you remain so confident that we can withstand. We acknowledge there's only one other branch of government left, the courts at the moment, and obviously the court of public opinion. Perhaps that may be the answer.
- [44:50]
Leon Panetta
Yeah, you know, look, there's no question there's a lot of damage being done. I think we're seeing that every day. What's happening with immigrants, what's happening with the rule of law, what's happening with funding, with what's happening with federal civil servants. There's just an awful lot of damage that is being done. But, you know, I really believe. I guess this goes to the heart of why I feel the way I do, because, you know, in my 50 years, I've witnessed a lot of different people come into office, a lot of different views brought in. But there were, you know, for 80 years, going back to World War II, whether a president was Republican or Democrat, there were some fundamental values that every one of them had and shared. And that was not only, you know, American world leadership. They also respected the values of our democracy. They also made very clear that this country was going to respect the rule of law in our Constitution. They also made very clear that we would work through our democracy in order to make change. Every president wants to make change, but most presidents make change by working through our Constitution and through our democracy. Look, Bill Clinton, when he became president of the United States, made the decision that we were going to try to achieve almost 500 billion in deficit reduction. But we did that through the budget. I sat down with the president, we walked through the budget. He made decisions about what programs ought to be funded, what programs ought to be cut. And we put that into a budget, sent it to the Congress. That's the way you're supposed to do it. And we were successful. We passed that budget. And yes, we were able to achieve 500 billion in deficit reduction, but we did it pursuant to the law and pursuant to the Constitution. Why this president comes in and throws all of that out the window, gets Doge, gets Elon Musk, gets whoever else to suddenly engage in this kind of vigilante approach to democracy basically undermines our democracy. Doesn't strengthen our democracy, it undermines it. You undermine the power of the Congress, which has the power of the purse. Under our Constitution, it's the Congress that decides what is funded and what programs are protected, not a group of vigilantes. So, look, the courts have been finding that that is the case time and time again. I really do believe that ultimately the American people do not want a king as president. They want a president who understands that his oath to the Constitution has to come first. That's where the American people are at. And, yeah, you know, presidents can say or do whatever the hell they want, but ultimately, it's the American people who rule in this country. And I honestly believe that whether they're living in a red state or a blue state, they believe in American values and they believe in the rule of law and they believe in the Constitution. That's why this country is going to survive.
- [48:42]
Gavin Newsom
I love it. I love it. I'm going to bookmark that. That's a point of optimism.
- [48:51]
Katherine Townsend
Over the years of making my true crime podcast Hell and Gone, I've learned no town is too small for murder. I'm Katherine Townsend. I've heard from hundreds of people across the country with an unsolved murder in their community. I was calling about the murder of my husband.
- [49:06]
Gavin Newsom
The murder is still out there.
- [49:08]
Katherine Townsend
Each week I investigate a new case. If there is a case we should Hear about, call 678-744-6145. Listen to Helen Gone Murderline on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Stay informed, empowered, and ahead of the curve with a Bin News this Hour podcast updated hourly to bring you the latest stories shaping the black community. From breaking headlines to cultural milestones, the Black Information Network delivers the facts, the voices, and the perspectives that matter 247 because our stories deserve to be heard. Listen to the BI N News this Hour podcast on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. I also wanna address the Tonys on a recent episode of Checking in with Michelle. Will I open up about feeling snubbed by the Tony Awards? Do I? I was never mad. I was disappointed because I had high hopes. To hear this and more on disappointment and protecting your peace, listen to Checking in with Michelle Williams from the Black Effect Podcast Network on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. In our new podcast, Everybody's Business, we talk about the business news that concerns everybody. From Bloomberg businessweek, I'm Stacey Vanek Smith.
- [50:30]
Leon Panetta
And I'm Max Chavkin.
- [50:32]
Katherine Townsend
Each week we unpack what is happening on Main street and Wall street, all the streets. WrestleMania has taken over the US economy. Poetry that executives write on LinkedIn. A little actual magic in our underrated story of the week, single greatest marketing campaign the music business has ever seen. I decided to ask people how they felt about the penny going away. Listen to Everybody's business Wherever you get your podcasts.
- [50:57]
Gavin Newsom
We are telling our scientists today we.
- [51:00]
Katherine Townsend
Have disdain for your expertise. And then you have China as an exception saying, actually, we're going to invest a trillion dollars in new science. You heard that right. While the US Is slashing science budgets, China is doubling down. This means here in the United States, less innovation, fewer breakthroughs, and falling behind on the global stage. This week on Dope Labs, Chelsea Clinton breaks down what these cuts really mean. Listen to Dope labs on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. This is an iHeart podcast.