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- [00:00]
Gavin Newsom
Foreign. This is Gavin Newsom, and this is Steve Bannon. Well, Steve, thanks so much for taking the time to be here. And. And I want to take this opportunity to sort of, you know, go back a little bit and talk about your history, a little bit about your motivations and where you see this country and for that matter, the world going. But it's impossible not to note the world that we're living in in relationship to everything happening with the markets, everything happening with the. With tariffs, everything happening with CR&A potential government.
- [00:43]
Steve Bannon
Don't, don't. Don't be giving terrorist stinker. I don't want to start off with you giving it stinkai already.
- [00:47]
Gavin Newsom
Well, we'll start with.
- [00:49]
Steve Bannon
I'm a tariff guy.
- [00:50]
Gavin Newsom
I appreciate that. And what we'll see. We'll see.
- [00:53]
Steve Bannon
Well, we'll stress the purpose I want to do this is I want to convert you to be a tariff guy also. This is. This is part of the process to. To unwind you from being a globalist, to make you a populist nationalist. It's a long journey. It's a long journey. It's a long journey, but I think you'll get there.
- [01:09]
Gavin Newsom
This is part of the deprogramming, is it? I appreciate. And by the way, for the record, I'm going down your rabbit hole right here. I'm not an absolutist as it relates to being against tariffs by any stretch of the imagination. And I thought it interesting where we. What I think Biden tripled tariffs on aluminum and steel, of which is getting a lot of attention in this country today as it relates to Canada, and Democrats weren't screaming and yelling about that.
- [01:34]
Steve Bannon
So, I mean, Fetterman, look, you've got united. By the way, thanks, Governor, for doing this. I really appreciate it. Wanted to have this conversation for a long time, you know, two of the. Of the three best economic populists in the Democratic Party who I think are kind of on an island, one of the best is Rocahona Roe's economic patriotism, which we always kid him as just ripping off Navarre. And my economic nationalism is, you know, he's an economic populist. So is Fetterman. Fetterman just announced, you know, we're here today during the cr. Fetterman just announced he would support the CR if it came in as Fetterman's a populist. And then Sherrod Brown. Sherrod Brown, I think, has been an economic populist for a long time. So there are very strong voices in the Democratic Party, I think now, unfortunately, as a populist, I think they're kind of on an island because it really hasn't been the center of the conversation with the Democratic Party. But I think those three are pretty good as far as populism goes, Steve.
- [02:36]
Gavin Newsom
I mean, in terms of populism, then it's a good segue. How do you define that then? What's, I mean, is it a principle? Right. Obviously tariff may be a component part, but how do you define populism, particularly in relationship to their reflective lens, in terms of being done populism?
- [02:51]
Steve Bannon
Obviously, we believe in subsidiarity. We believe in bringing power back to the grassroots level.
- [02:56]
Gavin Newsom
Right.
- [02:57]
Steve Bannon
We're very anti elitist. And one of the reasons is we think the elites in this country, you know, the highly educated elites, the political class, the Wall Street, Silicon Valley, Hollywood, all of it, have really forgotten the underlying kind of principles of the country and kind of left working class people, regardless of their race, gender, ethnicity, sexual preference. You know, you pick it, they've kind of forgotten. And that's why such a big push for kind of these populist economic policies to look to put the lens is not just America first, but American citizens first. And it goes with tax policy, it goes with tariffs, it goes with bringing manufacturing jobs back. It's nationalistic in the fact that, not isolationist, but understanding that we gotta make it right for American citizens and particularly for the greatest resource we've had, ever had, which is the American working man and woman. So it's to push every decision as down low as possible and to get everything back to a grassroots level. And one of the keys to populism, kind of about the sovereign will is that the use of human agency that just don't sit there and say, you know, somebody else has got congressman's got to do something, or a senator's got to do something, or governor's got to do something. You have to use your agency only. And I see this in the Democratic Party now, the people saying, do something, do something. I think that's a lesson that we learned after President Trump. And look, you know, we disagree on this, but President Trump won the 2020 election. And we were kind of shattered as a movement when he left Washington, D.C. and we had to go back to basics to say, you know, it can't be somebody else do something. You know, we had to do something. And that's where we went back to really a pure populist movement to go at the grassroots, the precinct strategy, and kind of rebuild ourselves from there.
- [04:39]
Gavin Newsom
Well, and I appreciate the notion of agency, that we're not bystanders in the world, it's decisions, not conditions, that determine our fate and future. And that, that, that fundamental notion of agency I think is important more broadly. And I think that goes to some of the issues around, you know, victimization. And I see a lot of that, respectively on the right, increasingly, even with Trump often approaching things from that sort of mindset.
- [05:02]
Steve Bannon
What do you, what do you mean? What do you mean? What do you mean for Trump?
- [05:04]
Gavin Newsom
I think there's sort of the grievance narrative that comes from Trump. This, this, this notion. Is there sort of a victim grievance?
- [05:11]
Steve Bannon
Well, they did try to, they did try, they did try to put him in prison for 300 years. Right. They did try to bankrupt him. If a guy ever had a, ever had a set of grievances, they did steal, according to us, and we're firm believers, this is the 2020 election, which I think worked out better that providentially that he was able to come back with that gap, because I think you're seeing a much more, not just new and improved, but somebody that's much more in command of these decisions and really stepping up in a way that we could have never done before. But no, I don't think it's grievances. I think it's reality. I mean, they tried to. No one in American history has the system ever come after. And I think that's one of the problems with the Democrats. You got in a position of having to defend. Remember, I come from a working class Democratic family.
- [05:56]
Gavin Newsom
Democratic family, Kennedy.
- [05:58]
Steve Bannon
I was telling some people last night, I said, we didn't know any Republicans. There were just, we were Irish Catholic, working class phone company firemen, you know, Navy enlisted people. You didn't know any Republicans. They just weren't in your, you know, we were in the south also, which is all machine Democratic politics. So you didn't know anybody, you didn't know anybody then. And so to see what President Trump had to go through and to see how we've actively changed the Republican Party to actually the working class party in this country, there was a poll done last spring that showed that we, as a Republican party of the working class party and viewed as such, and that President Trump's the leader of that working class party and the Democrats have become both not just the Wall street elitist, but also the kind of the credentialed class with a, with the poor underneath it, of which we're now trying to obviously recruit not just the working poor, but actually the poor itself to join our broadening coalition.
- [06:56]
Gavin Newsom
I appreciate it and I want to talk more about that because I think it's interesting just as one of the points of contrast with you and frankly Trump himself right now is on some of the issues of tax policy in relationship this notion of who are you for and you've been pretty critical about the proposed tax, the extension of the existing tax cuts that disproportionately favor the wealthiest. And you are making the point that it should disproportionately focus on the middle class and work.
- [07:26]
Steve Bannon
You know Governor, I'm not so sure. Let me get there. So in, in 17 I was a big advocate of that in the first Trump tax plan of actually raising the rates on the, on the upper bracket and doing actually more to the lower bracket of corporations. And it was not just what I thought was right but also politically expedient at that time in the spring of, of of 2017, it was really Bernie Sanders and, and Pocahontas that was going to be the, the number Warren, Elizabeth Warren is going to be Pocahontas we call going to be the, the challengers coming from the populist left. And I thought it was very important to by the time and raise the brackets. Now I think history shows that they can show you the math that doing all of that actually worked in unison and got us that great 2019 today. And President Trump I think invest in a pretty upfront that this is the last chance we're going to get at a supply side cut of that $4 trillion. I think the $2.6 trillion of joint 400,000 and below of couples and I think you add another a couple of hundred billion dollars for maybe the pass throughs to the llc so the entrepreneurs get caught up. But that additional trillion dollars, unless it can be shown mathematically and I think people are working on this that they consume, you know right now I think the top 3% consume almost 50% of what's going in the country. Unless that you're concerned that that would kick you into a major recession if that went away. I am, I'm pretty adamant about that. You shouldn't, the upper bracket shouldn't get it and even some of the corporations shouldn't get it if they're just going to do stock buy. But additional tax cuts should go as President Trump promised, no tax on tips, no tax on overtime and particularly no tax on Social Security.
- [09:17]
Gavin Newsom
Yeah, but I mean his current proposal doesn't add up then in that respect blows the deficit and continues those corporate tax cuts and continues the tax cuts to the wealthiest. So it runs.
- [09:26]
Steve Bannon
And I'm not, I think, I think, I think we're not to be argumentative.
- [09:30]
Gavin Newsom
No, appreciate it.
- [09:31]
Steve Bannon
We want to have an open dialogue. I think when you look at Besson and Charlie Gasparino had a pretty good piece in the New York Post today about this. If you add in, if you look at the growth rates and it's predicated on growth, you look at a growth rate two and a half to 3%. Right. If you look at what we're trying to do on cutting federal spending, in addition Doge, which is the waste, fraud and abuse and you look at additional revenues externally from tariffs you can get to. And what Besson's trying to do is take the deficit from 6.5% of GDP down to 3.5% of GDP. So this nuts, this out of control explosion of $2 trillion in deficits which we as Republicans are about to sign off on today. Just so your audience understands this CR today the House will approve the Biden Kamala Harris spending for this year.
- [10:20]
Gavin Newsom
Locking it in.
- [10:21]
Steve Bannon
They're locking it in. And that's.
- [10:22]
Gavin Newsom
And how you can't be. I mean, how are you out there supporting that then?
- [10:26]
Steve Bannon
Well, because right now I think with everything it. And by the way, it's just, it's that plus it's a $2 trillion deficit. Okay. I think the reason we're doing it is that the House has not gotten their act together to get these single subject appropriations bills done. They are committed to do that working with Democrats in the spring and summer of this year for fiscal year 26. And I think to keep the, to keep the government open, to keep President Trump hitting on all cylinders, to keep Doge at work in federal court overnight. The federal courts are coming after Doge. This is on at least information. We expect many more lawsuits about that. But I think in the effort to do it, we're prepared and you know, we hate any cr. This one we've hated for a long time. We're prepared to go along. The President says he needs it. What I love about Johnson for the first time, they just announced they're going to vote on it this afternoon. He thinks he's got the votes in the House to do it. Then they're going on recess. They're sending it over to the Democratic Senate with a play. A play me or trade me, which.
- [11:30]
Gavin Newsom
They need seven votes on the Senate side in order to get this done. Otherwise we got a government shutdown yet another one. What is your over under on the prospects of that.
- [11:37]
Steve Bannon
I think it's interesting. I think the Democrats have to make a decision of whether they think it's better to keep it going and keep the resistance they've got in the legislative part but also in the courts or let Elon Musk, you know, the potentially unchaining with the Doge groups on who's, you know, who's, who's a necessary employee versus who's an unnecessary employee. I think it's the first time because traditionally the Democrats have always been for keeping the government open. I think they put them in a real condre. And I think this is Johnson's. It's going to be high stakes poker I think this afternoon. But people should understand this is a bitter pill to swallow for us because we have argued this is the whole reason Kevin McCarthy, a guy you know very well from California, we got turfed out as speaker. It was all over. It was the deal he cut with Biden that gave President Biden two years and unlimited no debt ceiling to spend and run up. And McCarthy then didn't deliver on the single subject appropriations bills and he got turfed out. So your audience understand these are huge fights on our side of the football all the time about spending.
- [12:49]
Gavin Newsom
So locking in the the Biden era budget or at least extending it and kicking it out. It's the last thing I expected to see coming from, you know, your side of the aisle or at least the mega movement. But also just even you saying something complimentary about Speaker Johnson, you've been pretty critical. I've been very critical.
- [13:05]
Steve Bannon
I think we're, I think we're. I've been very up until today I've been very critical about we're in this job because of over promising and underperforming. And I think you gotta in leadership I think now and I think it's a long way from him being out of the woods. Is that now because you got, you got only he's got six months now. He's got to deliver like a real budget with real cuts. Because just back for your audience, the Doge effort is waste, fraud and abuse. Okay. They're kind of like shock troops or special forces. And people can either say they're great or whatever. I would like to see a little more definition of what they've actually found. Okay.
- [13:41]
Gavin Newsom
All of us would Accountability, transparency. I agree with that.
- [13:45]
Steve Bannon
More transparency. But I think, but that doesn't to me get to the meat of it because I think you're going to have to have programmatic cuts. And I've been A big proponent that those programmatic cuts have to start in the Defense Department. I was a naval officer for eight years. My daughter went to West Point. I'm not a dove, but I think I've been a big critic of the trillion. We're at a trillion dollars now and that's one of the reasons of this post war international rules based order. We just can't continue on with NATO. We got to have allies that really pitch in here. But you got to start in the Defense Department program. You have to do programs and billets to get the budget deficit to 3 and a half percent of GDP roughly under a trillion dollars so that we can start somehow we can begin to finance this. Because right now that's the driver of inflation. You know, Biden, they just restated their numbers from the fourth quarter. And traditionally the Biden thing has always been. The labor numbers always been different.
- [14:41]
Gavin Newsom
Right.
- [14:41]
Steve Bannon
It's been one thing and then, and we've criticized that for a long time. This one the shocker. And I don't think that, and I've said this, that the guys on the economic team did enough for President Trump of pushing this. The inflation number went from 2.2% to 4.2% and it really didn't even get mentioned in the business press. And I said that shows you the underlying kind of burning inflation. The reason of that is the finance. You have to finance now essentially a third of the debt every year. So you're talking, I don't know, 10, $12 trillion of government securities you have to sell at higher interest rates. That's what's driving inflation. Plus I think a two loose Federal Reserve. So you had both a fiscal overspending and a monetary loose money. We've got an inflation problem that's not going to be easily solved. The way to solve inflation is you have to cut, I believe federal spending dramatically. You have a Keynesian kind of stimulus all the time and you have to do it. And that's going to lead to painful conversations. It just is. Because if Doge doesn't find all this waste, fraud and abuse. Right. And they're saying now they think they can get a trillion dollars which would cut the deficit in half.
- [15:49]
Gavin Newsom
You can't get a trillion, back to your point, without significant programmatic cuts. And I appreciate the defense frame, which is anathema. I mean the cring increases the defense spending and locks in a higher, higher rate. But you can't get there without cuts to something that you to your credit have said, you know, you can't put a Quote unquote me I came. I came to Medicaid side.
- [16:09]
Steve Bannon
I came out of the Pentagon and this is why I was adamant about Elon Musk, what we call crossing the Potomac. There's a point in time that people are saying, well let Pete Hexith handle the Pentagon. Elon. I said no. To get if you're going to get first off waste foreign abuse. I think everybody has to get everyone's for that.
- [16:24]
Gavin Newsom
Everyone.
- [16:25]
Steve Bannon
And not just that the Pentagon's got to step up. People have to know that if the way because it's always rumored, you know, they can't pass an audit. It's $2 trillion of 2 trillion just.
- [16:36]
Gavin Newsom
For the damn F35 which is programmatically.
- [16:40]
Steve Bannon
But there's 2 trillion on the audit. I think there's true train of assets they can't put their hands on.
- [16:44]
Gavin Newsom
Yeah.
- [16:44]
Steve Bannon
Jon Stewart was just lighting up one of the undersecretaries of defense I think a couple of weeks ago about this. So you have to do that. But then programmatically and this is why I think President Trump's hemisphere the shift to hemispheric defense, which is from Greenland to the Panama Canal, more of a naval strategy in the Pacific. It's the three island chains and really the vast desert of the Pacific is really the American heartland. That's our defensive barrier. That to me should restructure the entire Pentagon and armed forces to force structure around that. I think Pete Hex has got to move immediately. I think there should be significant cuts to the Defense Department and then that would give you the political cover to then say on Medicaid we got to be sensible here right now with the economic distress. There's a lot of MAGA on Medicaid.
- [17:31]
Gavin Newsom
Yeah. A lot of overwhelming opposition to cutting.
- [17:34]
Steve Bannon
It from and I think by you know, the illegal aliens and and obviously the waste, fraud and abuse and some of the things about, you know, a block granting it back to a governor like yourself and to California to figure it out has to happen and other social programs. This is not going to be painless. We've been so out of control and so and it's both parties. The Republican Party's been controlled opposition. They have not had these tough fights.
- [17:59]
Gavin Newsom
That's right.
- [18:00]
Steve Bannon
That's the tough fights we're going to have to have.
- [18:02]
Gavin Newsom
I mean and to be fair, so people understand and it's not an indictment to your point about both parties but you know, another $8.4 trillion went to the debt under Trump administration. And to be fair, Covid had a Huge part of that. But it's 3 trillion. Even before COVID hit, to your point. And I remember talking, by the way, you'll appreciate this, Steve. I remember being in Marine One talking to Trump, President Trump about the issue of the deficit. And he literally looks at me and he goes like this with his hands and he said, printing press, printing press. And literally dismissed.
- [18:30]
Steve Bannon
He was kidding. He was kidding.
- [18:32]
Gavin Newsom
Well, I'm not. The way he governed the first four years, I'm not sure.
- [18:36]
Steve Bannon
By the way, the first couple of years. The first couple of years the deficits were under, I think, four or five hundred billion dollars. We came very close to actually trying to balance it. If we went back to pre Covid spending. I mean, Scott Besson says this all the time. We don't have a revenue problem. And this is where everybody would think about having to increase your, your taxes. We have a spending problem. I mean, post Covid, we've had explosion of some of these programs. I think you got to get your arms around them. But once again, these are going to be huge fights and they're not going to be painless. What I like about Johnson today for the first time, because I think he's tapped us along and over promise. And now we're in a situation that, you know, we have to do a cr which we hate. If you think that the MAGA base and our show, we represent the hardest core of the hardcore. If you think we like sitting here and basically not lighting up the phones and accepting Joe Biden and Kamala Harris's budget, it's a tough pill and it's.
- [19:28]
Gavin Newsom
A hell of a thing. I mean, I'm enjoying watching this in some respects.
- [19:32]
Steve Bannon
No, but what I liked about him, he's voting and going home. He's gonna put it right on the Democrats about shutting down the government or not. And I think you're gonna have a real firestorm in the Senate and I think a fascinating debate about the direction of the country. And I think we're going to see that. I think we're going to see that coming. I think you'll see voices like Fetterman and others start to step up and take a much more prominent role in Democratic Party. Because one thing I keep saying all the time, if you'd watch MSNBC and cnn, you never really see the populace on the economic side. You don't see the Rokahontas getting the time. You don't see Fetterman really getting the time. Sherrod Brown and Sherrod didn't want to do national TV but you never see really the economic populist ever really get. They kind of roll out Bernie Sanders, who I'm not a fan of, but they don't really ever get to the other guys. I think that's all going to become quite different in the, in the days and weeks ahead.
- [20:22]
Gavin Newsom
Well, I think, Steve, just, you know, listening on those of you that, that may have some familiarity to you, but never have taken the time to actually listen to you or tune into the war room. I mean, the idea that you were even talking about the corporate tax rate and the tax rate for the wealthiest among us and having, I mean, the fact that you're having this, we're having this dialogue about your different approach. I mean, in some ways it's the California tax policy as it relates to more progressive tax policy that favors the working class, that we would never take.
- [20:51]
Steve Bannon
Any, we would never take anything from California.
- [20:53]
Gavin Newsom
I understand I'm challenging you, but the California.
- [20:57]
Steve Bannon
But you're over, you're grossly overtaxed. In California, we want to cut, we.
- [21:03]
Gavin Newsom
Have, we have moderate income taxes for middle class working folks. It's the top tax tax rate, which you're arguing for a little higher tax rate, which I appreciate in the corporate tax side, I don't know if it's completely dissimilar. I don't want to get you in trouble. But on the issue of terrorists, I want to go back to that because you're a big, you know, you're a big supporter of terrorists. I mean, right now, this, you know, this tit for tat, what's going on in Ontario, we, we doubled another 25% back to aluminum steel. Up in Canada, we're already seeing, I.
- [21:32]
Steve Bannon
Think we're increasing, I think we're increasing aluminum still. I think he said today 100%. There was another truth. I think it was a true social, not that it's tit for tat, but there was a true social right before.
- [21:43]
Gavin Newsom
I came along, I think there were a hundred, literally 100 true social posts. And you know, with respect on tariff policy, it seems a little chaotic. There's no stability. The markets are reflecting that. I used to say the most powerful force in the world was Mother Nature. Now I say the markets. I mean people, there's a. Now you're seeing even, well, Trump session. You're seeing Trump's.
- [22:06]
Steve Bannon
I say a lot of the bond market. The bond market more than the stock market. The bond market has turfed out more good governments than howitzers. If you look over the last couple of years, Liz Truss in England, really, the assembly in France under Macron. The Germans. Right. The Italians are probably close to a sovereign debt crisis. Spain, England's been a couple of governments, even Starmers under real pressure. So no, the global capital markets, particularly when you have to borrow this much money, the ten year treasury is, you know, Bob Rubin used to run the country under Clinton. And this is why Carville said, I want to come back. As I come back, I want to come back as a 10 year bond or the bond market. That 10 year bond sets everybody's economic underpinnings. And so it's very important. But I think with President Trump, it's both a growth strategy and part of its tariffs. Governor, it shouldn't be lost that the tariffs have many different aspects to it. Number one, he wants to get back at least somehow back to more of the American plan from Alexander Hamilton McKinley before the early 1900s, driven by the earthquake in San Francisco and the fire, we had a massive financial panic and that led to really the Internal Revenue Service and people, people focusing more on getting off American domicile companies and American citizens. President Trump wants to go back to more external revenue. That's part of the tariffs. He looks at the US As a premium market. And so you would pay a premium to get access to here. Like you would get a skybox at a sporting event or sit in the front row of a concert. And he's got a, but he's got an out if you want an out. Because the tariffs are going to be substantial. Right. And over particularly in Mexico and Canada. So you can't game the system, manufacturing and manufacturing wise and against China. Just look over the last, you know, he's been there 40 days. I think over the last three or four weeks you've had almost a trillion dollars. I think it's $800 billion from Honda, from, from Siemens, from Apple. It was $500 billion. Taiwan Semiconductor, you know, $100 billion in four years. These are massive capital investments in top grade. This is not some sovereign wealth fund saying I'm a come in or it's not Masa San, it's softbank saying I'm going to throw $100 billion. These are companies that are relocating here. And a big part of that is the tariffs. They say, look, we want to get in the United States, we want it manufactured domestically. It's got a logistics supply chain we can control. It's got, you know, it's got the rule of law, but most importantly doesn't have tariffs and it's got lower energy Costs. That's the new economic model. And it's going to go through some choppy order to get there. So these are just not a 25% tariff on an avocado coming from Mexico or some part under the hood from, from Canada. It's much more systematic. Now I understand the way it was rolled out because of the emergency nature of it. The focus was on fentanyl and this chemical warfare.
- [24:56]
Gavin Newsom
Yeah. Which is a little, a little bs, isn't it? I mean you have a larger economic populism frame here. Let's just be honest with folks. It had nothing to do with the, you know, tyrannical nature of a prime minister or 51st governor of Cal. Of America.
- [25:16]
Steve Bannon
No, no, but, but hold it. The, the Canadians have been, the Canadians are one of the tough. This is why when you talk about reciprocity On August, on April 2nd, you're going to have reciprocity and tariffs and in India and Canada.
- [25:28]
Gavin Newsom
Is that you think that's going to go in effect in April? You think, I mean with all the uncertainty, the market uncertainty, the Trump slump, all of the stress and the anxiety that people are feeling, all the down.
- [25:38]
Steve Bannon
I don't call it, I don't call it the Trump slump.
- [25:40]
Gavin Newsom
Listen, others.
- [25:41]
Steve Bannon
No, no, hang on. Warren Buffett. Warren Buffett, who's a, who's a big Democrat and a supporter of many Democratic politicians. Cause you know him very well. Yeah, he went to cash. He's sitting on $350 billion in cash. A couple months ago. I think he realized that a lot of the market, particularly equity markets were driven by Nvidia and other. The a. All this AI first kind of stage. There was a lot of fluff in that. So I think with President Trump, I do think they're coming in because I think he's changing the geostrategic model of the United States back to a hemispheric defense away from the post war international rules based order which has really gutted the United States. It was great for a while. Right.
- [26:19]
Gavin Newsom
It was great for 80 years of relative peace and prosperity and America dominated. I mean, I mean there's a lot of.
- [26:25]
Steve Bannon
But it got it, but it got it. The middle class, remember in the working class and at the end of the day we had allies that were taking advantage of. Give me a second on this. If you take the rim of the Eurasian landmass, you got Western Europe, the, the Persian Gulf, the Gulf Emirates, Middle east, then you've got the Straits of Malacca, the South China Sea and then up to Korea and Japan, those Four nodes. We have commercial relationships, trade deals, capital markets, integration, some cultural interface, but it's underwritten. It's an American security guarantee. This is how, whether it's NATO or the Middle east or South China Sea or are up with Japan and Korea, we have combat troops there. We have 150,000 troops deployed today in I think 115 countries. This is one of the reasons people talk about foreign aid with usaid, which I'm against a lot of this stuff going on, but it pales in comparison to what we're underwriting for countries that were upside down on every trade deal. Our trade deficit in I think in January alone was a record trade deficit. I think it was $100 billion. So not just do we have budget deficits, we have trade deficits and kind of inextricably linked because we've gutted all the manufacturing jobs, we've offshored those. And I think Trump's geoeconomic strategy is a massive, reassuring process. And I think you're seeing this now, and I might note, and I don't want to take a cheap shot, but a lot of those traditionally would go back to California, but they're going to Arizona and Texas because I think they're looking at red states now as having lower regulation, lower taxes and people are going there. And I think this is going to change a massive, the demographic change in the United States as you have Trump's reshoring, come back to the United States.
- [28:07]
Gavin Newsom
And so to be fair, that's tied.
- [28:10]
Steve Bannon
To unwinding the post war international rules based order. We're going to tell people that, hey, we're not going to be everywhere. Kids from California are not going to be on carrier battle groups. You know, guys deployed from San Diego and kids that live in the Inland Empire are not going to be deployed in the Red Sea with two carrier battle groups that keep the Suez Canal open so that Europe can get, you know, can get energy resources from the Persian Gulf. I think those days are kind of over. We'll pick and choose as we, as we, as we pull back and look at hemispheric defense, not retreat from the world, not be isolationist, but kind of take care of the homeland first and particularly take care of the people in the homeland, the working class and middle class.
- [28:58]
Gavin Newsom
Well, I appreciate how you laid all that out. I think there's risk in the context of the argument to move in a multipolar world and obviously the security umbrellas that will radically reorganize themselves. You already seen that with Mertz in Germany in the Relationship with, with obviously Britain and France, but also I worry about Japan and South Korea and that relationship. I worry about the nature of our, our broader influence. But I want to step back. There was a lot that influenced a lot of those companies you said that are coming back to the United States of America. Do you not agree that the industrial policies of the Biden administration, as it relates to the infrastructure bill, aspects of the ira, aspects of the Chips and Science act, were they not determinative from an industrial worker center policy perspective, were they not also influential in the decision for people to begin to quote, unquote, reshore?
- [29:51]
Steve Bannon
They might have been at the beginning, but it was President Trump they announced during President Trump's term. If President Trump had not won this election and he just had.
- [30:01]
Gavin Newsom
You don't think those companies. No, I mean, I do not record, but there was record investments in coming back during the Biden years.
- [30:08]
Steve Bannon
Correct me if I'm wrong, I think Biden in the entire four years was 1.7 trillion doll of, of capital investment back here from I think companies. Not just private equity.
- [30:17]
Gavin Newsom
From the private sector.
- [30:19]
Steve Bannon
From the private sector. Right. Not just, but I. Trump's almost at a trillion dollars in four weeks. And these are Apple because they understand that Trump represents a populist nationalist that's only growing and only going to expand. Right. And, and, and people are now focused on this. And that's why I think you have Honda, you have Siemens, you have, you know, the semiconductor company is huge. You know, they're the most advanced, I would say semiconductor manufacturer in the world. The other thing I think is quite interesting that traditionally our tech area in 128 in Boston, in Silicon Valley are built around great engineering schools are built around Berkeley and Stanford are built around Harvard and mit. When you start relocating to Arizona on something that's both an art and a science like advanced chip design. And you know, I love Mike Crow at Arizona State. He's a buddy of mine. University of Arizona is a great school. I love Arizona. They're not exactly MIT or Stanford. And I think it's showing you that the red states have done such a great job, Texas being the lead of actually making these amenable to people's needs as companies that they're coming back there. And I think it's going to have a huge political impact and a huge demographic. But they didn't come and Biden a Harris and if Kamala Harris won, I'm certainly they wouldn't have come because she's still a globalist that's not prepared to disrupt the global supply chains. President Trump's prepared to do that. Cuz reshoring. They're not gonna come back here unless you incentivize them to come back here. And part of that's a carrot which is what?
- [31:50]
Gavin Newsom
Well that was what the IRA was. That's what the Infrastructure Chips and Science.
- [31:53]
Steve Bannon
52 as you know Trump's, Trump's better with a stick. And you know you need a carrot and a stick but don't those same.
- [32:01]
Gavin Newsom
And I appreciate the stick but let's talk about those red states. Aren't they disproportionately the ones impacted by these tariffs? I mean there's to your point there's going to be some tears here and I appreciate the larger geopolitical and what you're trying to argue for ultimately coming out on the other side. But this transition is not overnight. The transition will come at real cost and consequence. Let's just be pragmatic. Up in Minnesota, Michigan, in New York they're looking at $100 more a month on electricity bills as it relates to retaliatory nature.
- [32:31]
Steve Bannon
That's a threat if it goes through some error.
- [32:33]
Gavin Newsom
That's just one example. I mean every economist looks at the impacts of these tariffs. Obviously California will be disproportionately impacted.
- [32:41]
Steve Bannon
We did this Governor. We did the most significant tariffs we've ever done on the Chinese Communist Party in President Trump's first term.
- [32:49]
Gavin Newsom
And Biden held the line on a lot of those.
- [32:52]
Steve Bannon
Held the line well number one because I think geopolitics he realized that, you know, you've got to stand up to the ccp. And I think although you wouldn't have remembered, you wouldn't have heard it from the media that what President Trump did was the beginning stage of something that had to be done to get the attention of the Chinese Communist Party that you just can't continue to game the system. And President Trump went out of his way. By May of 19 Lighthizer Navarro had that deal that went to every seven of the of the categories they had to resolve to really integrate with the western economy, really the world's economy, including the state owned industries. And they just tore the deal up and walked away.
- [33:27]
Gavin Newsom
Right.
- [33:27]
Steve Bannon
And said screw you. And so that's when these tariffs and the tariffs didn't increase prices. So when people say they increase prices, I don't actually think you have some economists saying theoretically but when we look at practically back to the golden year of 2019, you don't actually see it. And I think there may be Some dislocations in the short term. But in the intermediate term, I think it's really the way you get to the sunlit uplands of really having back to the American plan of remember world class industrial manufacturing that generates so many other opportunities.
- [34:01]
Gavin Newsom
I think it's a mutual goal for all of us. But industrial policy, which I think is missing a little bit from the Trump agenda with targeted tariffs, I understand, but broad tariffs without an industrial policy policy back it up. Broad start to lead.
- [34:16]
Steve Bannon
Broad, sustained. The key is broad sustain. If you have broad and sustained tariffs and people can make capital allocation decisions, particularly small and medium manufacturers. Remember in the Chicago area, I think between 1998 and 2005 we lost 5,000 small manufacturers and a couple of million jobs because we shipped it all to China. And those guys are begging all the time. These are not the apples and it's not the, the, the Taiwan manufacturing. Some of the manufacturing. These are small. You know this companies employ under 100 people which I think is the lifeblood. In fact, there's a guy in Laguna Beach, John Gardner, who's kind of the leader of this effort to bring the small manufacturing folks back to more craftsmanship type of, of of manufacturing. We have to do that. We have to become a manufacturing powerhouse again. We have to do it quickly and it's going to.
- [35:07]
Gavin Newsom
No one disagrees. I mean I.
- [35:08]
Steve Bannon
Wall Street's not going to love it because they're all neoliberal neocons. They want to be invading everywhere and they hate populism. One of the reasons people should understand is the blowback among the donor class in Wall street is not just that they perceive the economics and not to their benefit because you've concentrated wealth so dramatically here since the financial crash of 2008. But they hate the fact, and this shows you the Democratic Party, they hate the fact that they're empowering the populist. If we start to win on these tariffs, if we start to win on bringing these back, our movement is going to get bigger and bigger and bigger. Remember we got 39% of African American men. I think first time we've got majority or near majority of Hispanics because working class people see the opportunities there. And Wall street understands this and the corporatists understand this. I can't. Corporate America is my enemy. Number one. They're the leader in the WOKE movement in this country. But they're also. The greed and avarice has always been for the leaders. In fact, the tax cuts they take and one of the reasons I hate allowing them to do Stock buybacks is they game the system to drive up stock prices. The warrant package and the thing. And they don't put any capital equipment.
- [36:25]
Gavin Newsom
Thank you to me. If you put page. You got to tell your president that Steve. You got to tell your president that the president. To extend the status of the president.
- [36:32]
Steve Bannon
The president knows this already. His tax.
- [36:34]
Gavin Newsom
But why does he go after the carried interest? Why is he going after corporate subsidies?
- [36:40]
Steve Bannon
I'm going to break some news here. Governor, I believe that one of the leading things you're going to see in President Trump's tax bill when it comes out that he's going to take on carried interest. And President Trump has finally had a bill.
- [36:50]
Gavin Newsom
That's my kind of Doge. That's $1.3 billion small ball. But it's symbolic and subsidy. What about the $3 billion in oil gas subsidies? I mean that's the ultimate corporate welfare.
- [37:00]
Steve Bannon
What do you mean? We got it. We got a drill, baby, drill. We need.
- [37:03]
Gavin Newsom
We're already. We are 13 and a half billion barrels. Million barrels a day.
- [37:08]
Steve Bannon
We have. We need. We have to have lower energy costs. And one of the reasons all these companies are coming back. We're never. What we got to do is stop. Look, you see this In Germany, Germany had this maniacal. And you and I are not going to agree on this or even close but they had this, this fetish on the. Well, they made a mistake on the nuclear carbon zero. They've de. Industrialized themselves. On the Greta thunberg model. They're at 3.5percent pre Greta Thunberg.
- [37:33]
Gavin Newsom
She wasn't even born. But I appreciate your frame.
- [37:35]
Steve Bannon
No, but they did. They're deindustrializing Germany. We don't want that to happen here in the United States.
- [37:41]
Gavin Newsom
We're on the same page on that. It's just how we achieve the goal. And by the way, 100% aligned on industrial policy bringing manufacturing back. That's worker centered. 100% by the way. I say that as governor of the largest manufacturing state in America. A state that has more corporate headquarters, God bless, forgive me. Than any other state in America. More than we've had in over a decade. And that dominates in the innovative space in terms of scientists.
- [38:09]
Steve Bannon
But hang on a second, hang on a second. You've also allowed, and you've also allowed the oligarchy of Silicon Valley. Well, let's talk about Silicon Valley. Silicon Valley is an apartheid state. Okay. Within. Within. You're one of the most progressive leaders in this country. Right? We just, we disagree probably on everything. On the cultural side. But you're, you're one of the leaders. You're one of the leaders, elected officials of the most progressive state and you're, you know, the leader of that element.
- [38:35]
Gavin Newsom
Of the Democratic Party, techno feudalism. What do you mean by that exactly?
- [38:41]
Steve Bannon
Well, here's what I mean is that two things happen around 2008 to 2010.
- [38:52]
Gavin Newsom
By the way. That's sort of the tea. That's the wall Street. The bailout.
- [38:55]
Steve Bannon
Well, the bailout. The financial crash of 2008. And this is why I consider President Obama kind of a tragic figure, right. He came in as an anti war populist and I am opposed to the war in Iraq and every in Afghanistan. My daughter served after West Point in Iraq. And I can tell you as a parent, you realize that you have no control over anything. When your kid goes over, you know, defending their country, representing their country, it's, you understand, you know, how insignificant you are. But the financial crash, you know, Geithner and Bernanke went to a classic Wall street bailout. You know, we didn't let capitalism, you know, Goldman Sachs got bailed out a no corporate guys ever went to prison on the worst bailout. We had the greatest concentration of wealth until the pandemic happened with the 1% because the Federal Reserve's balance sheet went from $880 billion to I think four and a half, right. And all that liquidity went to bail out real assets and corporate stocks at the same time with Obama. When Obama got this heads up, I think was on Facebook at the San Francisco airport, this briefing about how social media his, his weapon to take on the Clinton mafia because he was a relatively unknown guy taking on the most embedded political apparatus in the Democratic Party in modern history. And he took it on with using social media. That was his, his first thing. And you. There was a deal kind of made a Faustian bargain that we wouldn't pursue antitrust, we wouldn't pursue FTC or the Justice Department. We would allow the, the tech oligarchs in the age of the algorithm, the algorithmic age to, to basically dominate and dominate in every one of these, these verticals, right? With no real anti antitrust. And what we allow them become the most powerful people on earth. And, and but what proved out is that both on social media with TikTok and, and then with deep seek in the AI space that the Faustian bargain that as a hegemon we said just give us the commanding heights. And that didn't happen. In fact, you say it's kind of an Utter failure. That the social media is all kind of clunky. It's very dominant. Right, but it's clunky compared to TikTok. If you look at AI and whether deep Seek, you think it's a Chinese psyop or it's a Sputnik moment, well.
- [41:08]
Gavin Newsom
It sure as hell it was a disappointment.
- [41:11]
Steve Bannon
We clearly, you know, you don't hear a lot of talking about net carbon zero when this thing needs 10 times more power on the data center side. And the thing, because it's, it's kind of brute force computer has, it has.
- [41:23]
Gavin Newsom
Resuscitated the nuclear question, which is interesting. So there's. Exactly. Because there's still a commitment they haven't completely thrown out fully the commitment to low carbon green growth. But your point direction, Governor, they'll get.
- [41:35]
Steve Bannon
There, you know, because they don't have the power, they don't have their business model. Now for that epic fail. What's the they've gotten away from. Capitalism is about markets and profits. Okay? They are now about digital platforms and rent. They're rent seekers and they don't believe in even open borders. These guys are techno feudalists that you have a digital platform, you had kind of digital serfs that, that serve that and you add it to AI and what they want to do in advanced AI of cutting out all the, you know, entry level, managerial, administrative, low tech work, we're going to have, we're going to have a massive problem about unemployment. And they're just on their merry way. And here's what, just like the lords of easy money on Wall street came to the Federal Reserve and the treasury for a bailout and no working class or middle class people, you know this in California got a bailout. They paid for the bailout through the taxes. What's the first thing Silicon Valley comes, The first thing they come for is we need a new Mercury program, we need a Marshall program, we need $500 billion and they need to turn over the Lawrence Livermore weapons lab in California. Sandia, we need to take control of all the national labs and we need a $500 billion bailout because of the Sputnik moment. So they come back to the taxpayers. This is why I think these guys are very dangerous. And it's created in the Silicon Valley. And I understand the beginning there was rationale for this, but now it's not. And it's gotta be. And I think you've gotta be one of the leaders of it.
- [43:02]
Gavin Newsom
Of course California is if we're ever.
- [43:04]
Steve Bannon
Gonna get a control of the oligarchs, you as governor and as quite frankly the leader of that wing of the party have got to work with us to say, hey, this can't go on any longer. We, first thing we need is Lina Khan and I, we, we love her.
- [43:18]
Gavin Newsom
He got rid of her. So I was going to ask you, I mean, you had someone who was actually starting to deal with some of these issues and then Trump threw them out. Threw her out.
- [43:26]
Steve Bannon
Correct me if I'm wrong, Governor, I don't think Kamala Harris, I don't think Lena Khan's name ever crossed the lips of Kamala Harris.
- [43:32]
Gavin Newsom
I don't recall.
- [43:33]
Steve Bannon
But they never had her back. She's the first one to say that they never had her back. She's a neo Brandeisian after Louis Brandeis, which always warned against the concentration of private power.
- [43:44]
Gavin Newsom
He also celebrated citizenship, which I appreciate. Active, non inert citizenship.
- [43:48]
Steve Bannon
Exactly.
- [43:49]
Gavin Newsom
Powerful office.
- [43:51]
Steve Bannon
He was a big believer in human agency. And with Gil Slater, Gil Slater's deputy with, with Andrew Ferguson, also Mike Davis and Rachel on Bovard. On the outside, we are the most. We want to break up. In fact, you see the suits right now in Northern Virginia and D.C. against Google. I mean, the hardcore populist wing of the MAGA movement really wants to target Silicon Valley, break them up.
- [44:17]
Gavin Newsom
And look, I appreciate that and you've been consistent on that for years and obviously goes to, I imagine some of your issues with Elon and we haven't even gotten to that. And I know that's all you called them evil. You called him a racist. You have a parasitic illegal alien, I think was your exact phrase. Your phrase, not mine. Though we may share some commonality in terms of concern about what he's doing. But that said, let me hold it.
- [44:48]
Steve Bannon
Hang on, hang on. Concern. You guys love. See you loved all the oligarchs in particularly Elon until they flip. And remember, all the rest of these oligarchs were all Progressive Democrats until 11pm they're progressive.
- [45:03]
Gavin Newsom
I would, I refer to him as libertarian. And I know these guys intimately, known him for decades.
- [45:09]
Steve Bannon
So you know the danger we're dealing with.
- [45:10]
Gavin Newsom
You know, look, but what, why doesn't Donald Trump, why doesn't President Trump, the leader of the movement, Trumpism without Trump? I mean, maybe, maybe it's maga, it's the work you're doing in that populist base. But why isn't he pushing back? He brings someone in from treasury, puts a Commerce Secretary that only reinforces.
- [45:30]
Steve Bannon
First off, at Treasury. I think you're seeing A very smart analysis about M and A and about the oligarchs. I think, look, with Gil Slater, Andrew Ferguson, I mean, these are one notch down and maybe not as well known as Lina Khan, but they're in the same. They're in the same. They're in the same school of thought, of Neo Brandeisian, of this concern about the concentration, the tremendous concentration of private power in President Trump's work through this. Right now, look, all these guys just became. Their Damascene moment was 11pm Eastern Standard Time on 5 November, when Pennsylvania was called for Trump. Once that. All of them, Zuckerberg, they became maga. You know, Zuckerberg. Zuckerberg started growing the hair, working out, doing well.
- [46:14]
Gavin Newsom
Elon was there a little bit before, it seemed. Elon was there before. After he dumped DeSantis.
- [46:19]
Steve Bannon
Elon, I think, very smartly. This goes back to the precinct, and I give him, Trent, his credit. He saw the math of what we were doing as grassroots of this precinct strategy, canvassing. He backed the play. I mean, and look, no one's ever written a $250 million check when they know.
- [46:35]
Gavin Newsom
I think it's more, but I. But that's just my humble opinion.
- [46:38]
Steve Bannon
It may be more eventually. I think it's up to 280. But he backed it on the least sexy aspect, which is backing grassroots going door to door. And particularly he would go up and campaign in Pennsylvania, Michigan and Wisconsin.
- [46:52]
Gavin Newsom
And forgive me, but what's his end game? I mean, you know, I know you. I. Look, he wants to be the first trillionaire in the world. I mean, what's his end game here?
- [46:59]
Steve Bannon
Well, you know, it. You guys, you created a governor. I mean, you guys, by the way.
- [47:03]
Gavin Newsom
In many respects, California did. It was our regulatory process and our subsidies to create this market. You're 100% right. I think you're right about that.
- [47:11]
Steve Bannon
He left Canada to come to California. That was his, you know, and then.
- [47:17]
Gavin Newsom
A big check from the federal government from everybody watching that backed his play early on when he was in deep need. He paid it back relatively quickly, but he's been the beneficiary of billions and billions and billions of dollars.
- [47:29]
Steve Bannon
38 loans. 30. 38 loans, I think. 38.
- [47:34]
Gavin Newsom
What do you. You seriously want him to take over the Starlink? To take over the FAA and the air traffic control system?
- [47:40]
Steve Bannon
Here's that. Here's what, Listen, I laid out this concept at CPAC in 17, that, that it was going to be, you know, populist economics and the economic nationalism, America first, national security and the third was a deconstruction of the administrative state. What Elon Musk has done and I think this is the engineer, you know, the, the better angels of Elon. That engineer's brain, I think it kicked in when he saw the strategy of how we actually win in building a coalition of working class people. He supported that. And President Trump I think now, and this is why I think he jumped on it, he sees that we have an apparatus and I think you'd be the first to admit the administrative state, that's kind of anti democratic. It's there and I don't care if AOC or Gavin Newsom or Bernie Sanders walks into the Oval Office. President United States, the, the deep state and the apparatus is going to do what they're going to do. They're going to look at you as just passing through.
- [48:32]
Gavin Newsom
No, we refer to it in, in, you know, in non pejorative but there's a clay layer of bureaucracy and you're right. Unaccountable folks making a lot of decisions and I don't think that's wrong. But, but yours is a much more.
- [48:42]
Steve Bannon
Then you know what, I just had an idea. We should invite Elon because you know these guys better, your personal friends, these guys. Elon ought to take a California doge sit down with you so you can get the ground.
- [48:52]
Gavin Newsom
We've been doing it for years. But our approach, Steve, is more like rego. We already did this $140 billion of savings on a $1.4 trillion budget. That was real savings and we did it the right way. Not to people with people. 400,000 positions under the Clinton administration.
- [49:12]
Steve Bannon
Let Elon come out. Let Elon come out and verify that. I think for the nation to be good and be good.
- [49:17]
Gavin Newsom
He hasn't done that. There's a recklessness to what he's doing.
- [49:19]
Steve Bannon
Let's go back to Darren. What he's trying to do is get the waste, fraud and abuse and identify. He has identified USAID which people have been working on for years, but he's done a good job there. The others is $20 billion in Citicorp. You know where it went. I think people are going to, you know, eventually need more details. I think he said he's going to provide more details. They just went to federal court last night. A judge ruled that.
- [49:42]
Gavin Newsom
Steve, I love that you're defending him now by the way. He's been. No, no, no, I'm telling you.
- [49:46]
Steve Bannon
Hang on, hang on.
- [49:47]
Gavin Newsom
He's been. He hasn't attacked you back, which is interesting. To me, he's marginally attacked you back. You must you be, I'm curious your private thoughts on that. Why do you think he, he, he's a little scared of you, isn't he?
- [49:59]
Steve Bannon
No, I don't think Elon's, I think.
- [50:01]
Gavin Newsom
He is, I don't think that's my personal opinion.
- [50:03]
Steve Bannon
I, I, I'm just, I'm into a microphone. But Governor, no, here's, I think it's important and this is why I think let's get back to why President Trump won again. You have basically working class people, middle class and particularly lower down the chains. They've seen the bailouts on Wall street, they've seen the oligarchs be made. They don't think they have agency in a global, you know, global supply chain. They think they're just a cog in the machine, that their voice is not heard right. They're kind of dismissed culturally, they're considered and I don't care if you're black, Hispanic or white working class, it's not a race thing, it's ethnicity. You're just dismissed as not being important. Now with AI coming up, they see that even their children that went to college in that important 10 years that you get out of school, administrative, tech, managerial, are probably not going to be there or be there in some dramatically different way than you came up and your dad came up and my dad and myself. So I think they see that in the institutions that were supposed to be there to be protective people question and the polling shows this categorical and that's why a guy like Trump, Trump comes up and he says, look in D.C. not in the room, not in the deal and I'm going to put you in the room. And people feel comfortable. That's why they love this kind of days of thunder and every day flood the zone. What President Trump is doing and President Trump and you know, because you know him very well, he has a visceral connection with working class people that people in politics haven't had, you know, for generations. He just has his working class and middle class. They trust him and they believe in him and he's designated Elon. I've got a lot of problems with Elon and you know that Elon knows it. But what I do admire is that he is trying to get this situation to get the waste, fraud and abuse out. I hope it gets to a trillion dollars. I'm his biggest supporter of that. I don't think we're going to get there.
- [51:51]
Gavin Newsom
No, back to your point, that's deep.
- [51:53]
Steve Bannon
Programmatic cuts and people this summer, and I keep telling people like all these corporate CEOs that come to Mar A Lago and the Tech Bros. And the bologarchs and all of them came to the, all of them came to the inauguration. They're all partying their tuxedos. I said this is all great celebratory, but we're going to go through a firestorm. And I think part of this firestorm is not this cr. I think the CR gets kicked down. But this summer when you start to go through the programmatic changes that you have to have. We have to get control of federal spending. If we don't, we're never going to get rid of inflation. That is going to be the acid test. When you talk about defense, you're going to have the hawks and a lot of other people in the neocons in your grill. When you talk about what has to happen to Medicaid, you know, when you talk about the social programs, you talk about snap, you talk about these. We are about to have a national conversation that we've never had. We've never. And there's no easy alternatives. All the easy alternatives we left, you know, a decade or a couple decades ago. This is going to get down to say, hey, we need to get the deficit it to under trillion dollars or like three and a half percent. We're never going to. People in this. Your audience should understand something. We will never pay off one penny of the face amount of the debt as we increase this now about every hundred days of another trillion dollars. It's just the interest right now. It's a, the gross interest charge I think is a trillion four, which is the way it's got to be looked. Not net because they kind of take the, they take the interest on the bonds we sell ourselves and they net it out, which I think is unfair accounting. You got to look at the gross right now. It's significantly over the Defense Department. And I would tell people too, as we kind of wrap up or get close to wrap up in the history of countries, no country's ever come back economically that its debts above its gdp. And we are now at that, at that space. In additional, no nation on national security has ever survived as a major power when the interest payments on their debt go above what they pay for national security. A trillion dollars. We are now over. Our national security right now is $1 trillion. And we are I think at about a trillion two to a trillion four in interest payments alone.
- [54:04]
Gavin Newsom
Yeah, but Steve, that's why this tax Cuts. Extending the tax cuts is reckless in this respect.
- [54:11]
Steve Bannon
I don't agree with that. I think if you want to have.
- [54:14]
Gavin Newsom
Governor, where by definition that substantially increases the problem increase.
- [54:19]
Steve Bannon
If you want to have a shot, if you want to have a shot to get the three and a half, four percent growth, you got to have a supply side tax cuts. You just, and by the way, for people, it's just keeping the tax cut they have today for, for people.
- [54:30]
Gavin Newsom
That's the frame though. You want to see it increased on corporations in the 1%.
- [54:34]
Steve Bannon
I want to see corporations stay. I don't want to see a cut. But on the upper, on the upper brackets, I don't want to, I don't want to see extension. I want them to go back to the old rates and they have to pay the old rates. And then additionally, if they can't help us get this under control, I'm all for increasing taxes on the, they will have a tax increase if President Trump doesn't extend it. But then I think we'll have another, have another tax increase. The 1%, the top 3%. Unless they, because they control Washington D.C. unless they work together with working class and middle class people to get this spending out of control and get all the corporate welfare out of this. Because we hate crony capitalism and corporate.
- [55:13]
Gavin Newsom
Welfare except for oil and gas, apparently. Steve, come on. Three billion right there, there.
- [55:18]
Steve Bannon
You've got to generate, you've got to generate lower energy costs.
- [55:22]
Gavin Newsom
There are exceptions apparently to the rule.
- [55:24]
Steve Bannon
First off, you finally admitted for the first time the net carbon fetish is admitted.
- [55:30]
Gavin Newsom
I've been, I've been pretty clear on, on this whole frame, but I'm not naive about it. But also, by the way, we're not, we're. I don't know what more evidence you guys need of Mother Nature's fury than we've had in the last year, but that's another conversation for another day. And that's not fanaticism, that's called pragmatism.
- [55:48]
Steve Bannon
Eventually you work with Rokahana and Fetterman, you'll become more of a populist nationalist and then you'll probably have a bright future.
- [55:59]
Gavin Newsom
Hey, Steve, I really enjoy this conversation. I think it's incredibly valuable and I appreciate the spirit to which we were able to engage and I hope we could continue the conversation and I hope we get out of this week without any further disruptions. It's been a hell of a, hell of a beginning of administration and I appreciate your advocacy. I also appreciate that you call balls and strikes as it relates to what you're seeing with the administration.
- [56:25]
Steve Bannon
I also think that for your audience, there's a saying that there are decades in which nothing happens, and there are weeks in which decades happen. We're living in that time right now. So whatever happens this week, next week, it's going to be quite intense. We have economy to turn around geostrategically. The beginning of the kinetic part of the Third World War has got to be stopped. So it's we're we're living history every day. And I'm just honored you had me on here. And, you know, we were able to conduct this in some level of, of decency.
- [56:55]
Gavin Newsom
I appreciate. Steve, thanks for joining us.
- [56:57]
Steve Bannon
Thank you, Governor. Appreciate.