And, This Is The End Of The Free Press With Don Lemon

Summary

Podcast Summary: “And, This Is The End Of The Free Press (with Don Lemon)”

Podcast: This is Gavin Newsom
Host: Gavin Newsom
Guest: Don Lemon
Date: March 20, 2026
Producer: iHeartPodcasts

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Overview

This episode features a candid and in-depth conversation between California Governor Gavin Newsom and former CNN anchor Don Lemon. The discussion covers Lemon’s unique career trajectory—from his conservative beginnings to his journalistic rise, major transitions, being let go from CNN, his experience on digital platforms (including a dramatic fallout with Elon Musk), mental health struggles post-termination, and his “Don Lemon Show” independent media venture. The conversation culminates with a hard look at threats to press freedom and democracy in the United States, especially following Lemon’s arrest while reporting. Throughout, both Newsom and Lemon share personal, emotional, and at times humorous moments, keeping a tone of urgency, resilience, and advocacy for open dialogue and journalistic integrity.

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Key Discussion Points

Don Lemon’s Early Life and Political Awakening

• Young Republican Roots
  • Lemon reveals he was briefly a Young Republican during the Reagan era, partly to fit in at LSU, drawn by “opulence and dynasty” (03:35).
  • Quote: “I was young and a Republican. There was no club. I was young and a Republican.” — Don Lemon (04:17)
• Family Influences
  • Stepfather was conservative, real father (an activist attorney) worked on civil rights in Baton Rouge: “He changed the way public transportation laws worked and where black people could sit on buses…” (05:28)
  • Mother remained liberal and skeptical of Reagan.

Journalism Origins and Formative Years

• Early Curiosity
  • From a young age, Lemon demonstrated natural inquisitiveness: “I’ve always asked questions since I can remember” (06:58)
• Early Inspirations
  • Sees news anchor Jean West on local TV, realizing journalism is possible for someone who looks like him (07:45)
• Career Beginnings
  • Failed by a professor at LSU who doubted his prospects, Lemon left for NYC, survived on low wages before landing newsroom jobs, working every role from assistant to field producer.
    • Quote: “My journalism professor told me I would never make it as a journalist… So I left LSU. I packed up my 87 Jeep Wrangler, moved to New York City…” — Don Lemon (09:57)
• First On-Air Job
  • Birmingham, Alabama, as weekend anchor (12:00)

Navigating the TV News Industry

• Role Models & Mentorship
  • Looked up to Max Robinson, Bryant Gumbel, Peter Jennings (14:42)
  • Eventually became friends with Bryant Gumbel, a surreal full-circle moment.
• Field Work vs. Anchoring
  • Lemon always wanted to be a field reporter but often cast as an anchor.
• Key Turning Point
  • At CNN, a colleague finally acknowledges: "You’re a much better reporter than you are an anchor," validating Lemon’s self-view and launching his success at CNN (15:45)

Seventeen Years at CNN: Highs, Lows, and Identity

• Network Instability & Diversity Issues
  • Recounts feeling marginalized early in his CNN career, with all anchors of color consigned to weekends (22:14)
  • Critical meeting with CNN chief Jeff Zucker, who saw Lemon's value and moved him to prime time in NYC.
    • Emotional moment: “When someone believes in you like that, it means a lot.” — Don Lemon (25:56)
• Prime Time Success & Sudden Termination
  • CNN achieves record ratings under Zucker; Lemon describes the network at its best as competitive but healthy, which changed after Zucker’s departure.
  • Fired in 2023 after leadership shift; Lemon believes he was directly targeted.
    • Quote: “I never got to say goodbye to my audience or even my coworkers.” — Don Lemon (30:23)
  • Details on rumor placement and internal sabotage, stating, “The calls are coming from inside the house” (30:49)

The Nikki Haley Comment and Reputation Fallout

• Describes infamous on-air comments about Nikki Haley and subsequent network response:
  • “They took that and used it as, you know, pretext… to destroy someone's reputation.” (32:48)

Mental Health, Introspection, and Resilience

• Personal Impact of Firing
  • Mixed relief and insult; highlights toxic CNN culture post-Zucker and lost trust: "There was a little bit of relief… But more than anything, it was insulting the way that my exit was handled.” (35:41)
  • Addresses stigma around therapy and antidepressants:
    • Quote: “Life came back in living color. Even the talk sessions with my therapist became more productive.” — Don Lemon (41:00)

Rebuilding: Digital, Independent Media, and the Musk Saga

• Navigating Noncompetes; The X/Twitter Experience
  • Constraints from CNN contract led Lemon to experiment with digital media; describes negotiations with Elon Musk and how the promise of editorial independence dissolved after one hard-hitting interview.
    • Quote: “I would have to criticize even the owner of that platform... and then the first interview, that's not what he wanted.” — Don Lemon (48:34)
• The Lightning Interview
  • On his Musk interview: “I asked him about things he’d said publicly… You should be able to answer that.” (49:43)
  • Interview touches on mental health, ketamine use, and deeply prescient cultural issues: “Everything in that interview… became huge topics almost like eight months or a year after I did the interview” (53:52)
• Aftermath: Lawsuits and Independence
  • Musk cancels their content deal after the interview; Lemon launches his own platform in earnest.

The Don Lemon Show & the Evolution of Independent Media

• Building Community
  • Transition to a more personal, accessible show: “There are fewer barriers between me and the people who are relying on me to convey the news” (59:55)
  • Creation of “Lemon Nation” community, measuring success by audience trust.
• Reflecting on Old Media
  • Expresses sorrow and concern for CNN in light of impending ownership changes and ideological interference (63:48):
    • “The best journalists in the world aren’t going to be able to be their best because someone is going to try to influence…with ideology… and that should never happen to CNN.”

The Erosion of Press Freedom and the New Reality for Journalists

• Personal Experience: Arrest and Chilling Effect
  • Recounts being arrested in LA while covering the Grammys and the recent FBI raid on a Washington Post journalist (69:26)
    • Quote: “We’re going to lose the First Amendment. We’re going to lose the freedom of the press.” — Don Lemon (01:11)
  • Observes the targeting of journalists, especially journalists of color: “If you look at all the people [indicted], a lot of them are brown, a lot of them look like me. And I think [Trump] is a racist.” (74:39)
• Lack of Sufficient Outrage
  • Humbled by public support, but strikes at the profession’s timidity: “I can’t believe that this story is not one of the major headlines almost every single day.” (77:13)
• Grave Warnings for the Future
  • “Without the First Amendment, all of the other amendments, nothing else stands. This affects everyone...” (78:34)
  • Evokes comparisons to suppression in other authoritarian states, underscores urgency and collective responsibility.

Closing Reflections: The Fate of Democracy and a Call to Action

• Will We Have a Free Press and Free Elections?
  • Newsom warns of threats to free and fair elections in 2028 if things don’t change (82:21). Raises alarm about coordinated efforts to undermine institutions (“It’s the rule of Don, not the rule of law”).
• Solidarity, Resilience, and Faith
  • Lemon and Newsom end with mutual support and black-humor, underlining faith and the need for action.
    • “As we pray, we got to move our feet, right? We ain’t holding hands, having a candlelight vigil. We got to get out there and expose all this.” — Gavin Newsom (86:08)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “My journalism professor told me I would never make it as a journalist.” — Don Lemon (09:57)
• “When someone believes in you like that, it means a lot.” — Don Lemon, on Jeff Zucker’s support (25:56)
• “I never got to say goodbye to my audience or my coworkers.” — Don Lemon, post-CNN firing (30:23)
• “The calls are coming from inside the house.” — Don Lemon, on internal sabotage at CNN (30:49)
• “They took that and used it as a pretext…” (On the Nikki Haley incident) (32:48)
• “Life came back in living color.” — Don Lemon on therapy and antidepressants (41:00)
• “Everything in that interview [with Musk]… became huge topics almost like eight months or a year after I did the interview.” (53:52)
• “There are fewer barriers between me and the people who are relying on me to convey the news to them.” — Don Lemon, on the rewards of independent media (59:55)
• “We’re going to lose the First Amendment. We’re going to lose the freedom of the press.” — Don Lemon (71:11)
• “Without the First Amendment, all of the other amendments, nothing else stands.” — Don Lemon (78:34)
• “He doesn't like it when people don't agree with him, when you're not part of his culture.” — Don Lemon, on the motivation behind his targeting (74:39)
• “It’s the rule of Don, not the rule of law.” — Gavin Newsom (86:08)

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Important Timestamps

• 03:35 — Lemon’s early days as a Young Republican
• 05:28 — Family political influences; early activism
• 06:58–09:17 — Discovery of journalism, initial role models
• 09:57 — Dropping out of LSU, determination to break into news
• 15:45 — The breakthrough moment at CNN
• 25:53 — Jeff Zucker’s pivotal support at CNN
• 30:23–32:48 — Lemon’s firing, reputational assault, and CNN’s leadership change
• 35:41–41:00 — Mental health aftermath and recovery
• 48:34–53:52 — The Elon Musk/X fallout and interview legacy
• 59:55–62:46 — The rewards and impact of independent media, “Lemon Nation”
• 63:48–66:07 — The current crisis at CNN and threats to legacy media
• 69:26–78:34 — Press freedom under threat: Lemon’s arrest, FBI raids, political intimidation
• 82:21–87:08 — Newsom and Lemon’s closing reflections and warnings for the future

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Tone and Language

• Authentic and unfiltered: Both Lemon and Newsom are frank—at times angry, mournful, hopeful, and humorous.
• Mutual respect and camaraderie: Deep empathy and support, with moments of levity to balance heavy topics.
• Urgent and advocacy-driven: Both speakers warn repeatedly about the real and present threats facing American democracy and the free press.

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Summary Takeaway

The episode is a passionate plea for journalistic courage and public vigilance in the face of mounting threats to press freedom and democracy. Don Lemon’s journey—from high-profile network anchor to embattled independent journalist—mirrors wider industry shifts and underlines the costs and necessity of speaking truth to power. Listeners are left with a sense of gravity for the moment, but also hope in resilience, solidarity, and the enduring need for open dialogue.

Transcript

[Don Lemon]

We're gonna lose the First Amendment. We're gonna lose the freedom of the press. My opinion is that they targeted me because they have been after me for a long time. Sorry. This is Gavin Newsom and this is Don Lemon.

[Podcast Host/Announcer]

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[Don Lemon]

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[Gavin Newsom]

Don Lemon, My friend, Governor Newsom, the Young Republican. The Young Republican. Tell me that's true. Is that true? You were a Young Republican?

[Don Lemon]

That was years ago. I was, yeah. I think it was a freshman in college. It was around the. It was the 80s. Everybody was doing it. Governor, I was a Young Republican. I thought it was cool. You know, I like the clothes. I like, you know, I went to LSU and there was lots of khakis and blue jackets and, you know, I wanted to fit in. But it was the Reagan days and opulence and dynasty and, you know, and I don't know, I just, you know, I have some conservative leanings and I still, I mean, I had some and I still do now, but I've matured and I've grown a bit. So, yeah, I was a Young Republican. It's true.

[Gavin Newsom]

And you were like, member of the Young Republican club. Were you out there, like, advocating?

[Don Lemon]

No, I was young and a Republican. I was. There was no club. I was young and a Republican. But my mom. Look, respectfully, Gavin, when I was, I liked Ronald Reagan. It was weird. And my. I wrote a letter to the White House, to the President, and then they wrote back. I think it was maybe an auto pen. But anyway, he signed it and they wrote a letter to me. And I have it somewhere in my memorabilia. And I got a lot. I remember coming home one day and my mom said, you got a piece of mail. And I Said, where? And she said, the White House. And she goes, why is the White House writing you? And then I opened it up and I said, oh, it's from the president. She said, you are out of your damn mind, because she did not like Ronald Reagan. And then quickly I became. I came to realize, like, you know, what he was, you know, around the AIDS crisis and, you know, all the. The hysteria and hypocrisy around that. I just. That's when I, you know, fell out of favor with Ronald Reagan and with the Republican Party.

[Gavin Newsom]

Was your. Were your parents politically active in any way, shape or form? Did they get you agitated early on in terms of just what's going on in the world, or did that come naturally for you?

[Don Lemon]

Well, my dad, interestingly enough, my dad retired, I think around 1980 or so. Around that same time he retired. He worked at Exxon for 30 some years. He's my stepdad. And he became one of those people who started listening to radio all day. And it was Rush Limbaugh back in the 80s, right? He would hear Rush Limbaugh, and my. And my mom would come home from work and said, have you been sitting in your workshop all day working on stuff and listening to Rush Limbaugh? So my dad would, you know, talk about all this conservative stuff. And then my mom was always liberal and. But. So we didn't really talk about it that much. But my real dad, who was an attorney, was involved in a civil rights action in Baton Rouge. He changed the way public transportation laws worked and where black people could sit on buses and public transportation. So my dad, who is an attorney, my real father, who died, you know, when my mom remarried, but remarried my stepdad, but he was more of an activist than anybody else. But I didn't get to know him. I was 7 when he died.

[Gavin Newsom]

You were? Yeah, just 7. God bless.

[Don Lemon]

Yeah.

[Gavin Newsom]

Was your. I mean, you and your. Your foray into journalism, was it, you know, was. Was it as a student? I mean, how young did you really start looking through the prism of trying to tell stories and, and, and. And to communicate them or, you know, what was that evolution like?

[Don Lemon]

Well, I was a journalist before I even knew what the word was. And according to my mother, I would, when I was a kid, you know, just old enough to walk and talk. She said I would go over to people, you know, if we were on vacation or if we were in a restaurant, and I would just wander over to someone's table or just go talk to people and say, where are you from? What are you doing? And My mom would say, come back. And my dad would say to my mom, according to my mother, don't teach that boy to be afraid of people. Just let him do his thing. And if, you know, if he goes too far or if they don't want him over there or whatever, then we'll take care of it, but just let him go and do his thing. And so I was. I've always been curious. I've always asked questions since I can remember. I've always wanted to know. But it wasn't until around high school, maybe early in college, there was a woman in. On my local news station. Her name was Jean west, and she was this black woman, and she was, you know, articulate. I hate that word. But she, you know, spoke the. The King's English. She dressed to the nines. And, you know, nothing against Good Times or J.J. walker or any of those things, because those people were doing what they. They had to do in order to survive. But those were the only role models we had on television pretty much in the 70s was like, dynamite and that kind of thing. And so I turned on the TV and I was like, oh, look, this person looks and sounds like my family. And I said, that's what I want to do. And ever since then, you know, I started pursuing it. So you.

[Gavin Newsom]

How. And so you were how old at the time when you really. I mean. I mean, was it that indelible that you said, that's what I want to do? Or ultimately you sort of look back and realize there was sort of subtext that had influenced you? Or did you really just sort of have that magical moment where you just one night were watching her and said, boy, boom, That's. That's me.

[Don Lemon]

I think it. I think it was a combination of both, but it didn't really solidify or cement until I had a friend who was a local weatherman. And this was. So this was probably my freshman or sophomore year at lsu, and he was a local weatherman, this handsome dude. He was in the closet then. Now he's not anymore. And I was like, oh, I want

[Gavin Newsom]

to be on tv.

[Don Lemon]

That's what I want to do. But it was a combination of those two people, I think, who were the woman who I really admired from afar, and I did not know her then. And then my friend who is a local weatherman who, you know, I would go visit him at the station and. And so I kind of got the bug for it. So I think that's when I fell in love with. With it, and then I started pursuing it. Because initially I wanted to be an attorney. I studied like, economics and I was going to do pre law, and then I hated it and wasn't doing well. And the moment I started doing, you know, the journalism things, the tv, radio things, the writing, I was like, this is it. It clicked for me.

[Gavin Newsom]

You remember that first job, first paycheck in journalism? What was it?

[Don Lemon]

Oh, yeah, yeah. The first job I got in journalism. I dropped out of lsu, by the way, because my journalism professor told me I would never make it as a journalist. And I did not understand why he was saying that. He said, well, we had to do. We had to, you know, our exams, we had to take exams. And so the writing and the on camera and all that, I was really great. But I never could edit videotape. It was just like. It's something that I was just like, God, this is just way too much, too complicated for me. And so, you know, A's and everything, like. And I find I found myself performing better than anyone in the class. And I never understood why he would not embrace me. And then when he told me that, that's when it clicked for me. Because I wasn't getting into the business to be an editor. I did not want to be a technician. I wanted to be the person who was reporting the story. And. And So I left LSU. I packed up my 87 Jeep Wrangler, moved to New York City, and then took a job as holiday relief Christmas and New Year's help at Macy's Herald Square, and then eventually got a job at the local Fox station in New York City, WNYW, 205 East 67th street, on the Upper east side. And I became a news trainee, which was $5 an hour below the poverty level. And for six months. And then I was like, I gotta make this work. And I worked my butt off to impress everyone. And then I got a job as a production assistant, and then a desk assistant, satellite fee coordinator, writer, field producer, and then I became the assignment editor. And then I started sending my tape out and got a job and left.

[Gavin Newsom]

And what was that first job you got after you sent those tapes out?

[Don Lemon]

The. The first on air job? Because I worked in that newsroom for five years. I worked in that newsroom. It was like graduate school for journalism at Channel 5. And this was Gavin. This was pre Fox News. This was a Fox O and O, which is an owned and operated station. And it was one of the main ones. And there was this thing called the Fox News Exchange, which was all of the owned and operated stations would Put their things on a feed and they'd send it out for the rest of the country. So it was like their little mini network. This was before Fox News. And then the FOX News exchange eventually became Fox News, which is with Shepard Smith and all those guys. And I, you know, they were all on the FOX News Exchange. And then the people who were there became anchors and talent on Fox News. But so I worked there for five years just behind the scenes doing everything I could. I learned every job in the newsroom. And then finally I sent my tape out. My news director helped me to get an agent. And my first job was in Birmingham, Alabama at the Fox station in Birmingham, Alabama. And I never looked back as a weekend anchor and then reporter during the week and then fill in anchor during the week. And then that was. Yeah, I never looked back.

[Gavin Newsom]

I love it. Was your mom, was this. The parents were cheering you on? Are they scared as to hell at five bucks an hour, Five years of your life and what the hell is he doing? And why does he come back home? Law school, Damn it.

[Don Lemon]

Yeah, yeah, there was some of that. But then, you know, my mom would say that, and then my dad would say, let him do what he wants. And, and then my mom would secretly send me money because I couldn't pay rent. I mean, I had a, you know, after, after the, the news trainee job, which was, you know, solid pay for a certain amount of time. For a limited amount of time, I had to, as a production assistant. I worked freelance. I was per diem, so there weren't always hours for me to work. And so when there weren't any hours, I'd have to go and back to the Macy's and say, can you give me a couple of hours? And then eventually I got a job in a sign company as kind of the office manager. And then finally, you know, WNYW said, we're going to hire you as a permanent employee. And then I could quit that. But that was, that was back in the day. Do you remember Mari Povich and A Current Affair and all those things? Yeah, it was shot in that building.

[Gavin Newsom]

And I was just going that bill. Remember O'Reilly was doing that kind of stuff before he was on the O'Reilly Factor.

[Don Lemon]

I think O'Reilly was hard copy.

[Gavin Newsom]

Yeah, yeah. The version of that. Yeah. Crazy. What, so was that, what were you trying. Did you want to be the guy reading the script or you were a journalist. You were doing investigative reports too, right? I mean, you, you kind of, you got into every aspect of journalism.

[Don Lemon]

No, I wanted to Be, look, my, my, my mentors, the people I loved were Max Robinson and, and Brian Gumbel and, and Peter Jennings. And it's interesting, you know, fast forward, you know, Brian and I have become great friends. And so the people that I grew up admiring on television have become people I know and my, that are in my real life. And it's just kind of weird to be in that position. I'm very grateful that I, that I'm in that position, but I always wanted to be the guy out reporting the news. I didn't necessarily have to be the anchor if I wanted, if I was going to anchor, I said I would like to do field anchoring. Because back in the day, I don't know if you remember, Peter Jennings was always out like in some war zone or whatever, and then sometimes they returned to the studio or whatever. So that's what I wanted to do. But everyone, all of my news directors, everybody saw me as an anchor. And I was like, God, why are these people seeing me as an anchor? Because I'm a much better reporter. And finally, you know, I went to work. Eventually I went to work for, I got my lucky break and went to work for NBC News very early on in my career and, you know, and got my writing and reporting stripes from going to correspondent school in New York City. That's what they did. They would set you up with a producer that had been at the network for a long time. And basically it was like correspondent academy that you went to and you learned how to write and how to pitch every show. This is how you pitch nightly. This is how you pitch the Today show. This is how you pitch this other show. MSNBC was going to want you to do live all the time. So it was just like I was, like I was going to school. But they didn't just call you and say, we need a report. You had to pitch a story to get yourself on. And so, yeah, and it wasn't until I got to CNN and I went out on, I think it was a bridge collapse for my first big assignment in the field. And someone said, damn it, you're a much better reporter than you are an anchor. And I said, yeah, I've been trying to tell people that for like 10, 15 years and nobody will listen to me. That's when they realized and my career started to take off at CNN.

[Gavin Newsom]

I love it. You, you started what in 2006 at CNN?

[Don Lemon]

Right? I started CNN at 2006 after leaving, after going through the NBC system. I went to network first and then see that how they keep pushing me into being an anchor. The anchor was sick in Chicago. The main anchor, this guy's name is Warner Saunders, he had cancer and they weren't sure what was going to happen and they needed a replacement. And so they brought me in to anchor the 5:00 from the network in New York. And so I went to Chicago for three years and then I was. I hated doing local news. Chicago was great, but I just didn't want to be in local news anymore. And so I fax in my resignation in the middle of the night fax machines and then moved on to cnn.

[Gavin Newsom]

Do you remember your first. Do you remember the story for you even before CNN perhaps, where you just knew that you got the kind of recognition or even recognized in yourself that I could be great at this? Do you remember the story you mentioned, obviously, the bridge as an example, and that moment where it was that you may have been discovered, but when did you discover yourself in this role? Was there something that broke in your mind where you're like, man, I'm going to be good at this build confidence story that's more indelible in that journalistic journey.

[Don Lemon]

I don't know if there was one story, governor, but I just remember when I gained my confidence and, and I. And that confidence didn't come through, you know, someone putting me in a position to be able to do something. It came through hard work. And so when I was in Philadelphia at the NBC station, I'm skipping over a lot of my career because when I worked at the Fox station in Birmingham and then I eventually went to St. Louis and then NBC discovered me and pulled me away and said, we're going to send you to Philadelphia for a year and let you train there. And then we're going to bring you the network. And I'm like, bullshit, you're not going to do that. And then surely after three years, they called me up and said, we want you to come to the network. But when I was working in Philadelphia, we would have a breaking news like so. So the assignment desk would assign you a story at night. And I was always a nighttime reporter. I was always the, like primetime reporter. And so the assignment desk would assign stories and then they would leave one reporter to do just breaking. And so I. That meant you went and got in a satellite truck with those vans and you would just drive around the city and look for breaking news and so on. The assignment desk would say, all right, look, there's a fire at 57th and wherever in Tinley, go check it out. Or police are chasing some guy at such and such. Go check it out. Or, or one night, Dikembe Mutombo's truck SUV was stolen and police are looking for it. Guess who found it on a street in South Philadelphia. Yours truly, riding around in a NBC 5 satellite microwave van. It wasn't a satellite truck. Sorry. It was a microwave van. Microwave truck. And so I just remember because I would be thrown into those situations. What, you know, and, and it wasn't, you know, years before I'd be frightened as like if you said, if they said, oh my gosh, you got to go out and do this story, it's breaking that my heart would be racing. And finally I got to a point where it was just like sitting in my, in my living room. And so I remember showing up at scenes 30 seconds or, or a couple minutes before the show would start and then we didn't have the satellite and the microwave or whatever the signal set until like 30 seconds before the newscast. And they would say, don, are you set? This is my hairbrush. Right? They'd say, don, are you set? And I would say, I guess so. I don't know what I'm going to talk about. And then they'd say, oh, we're going to go to the break on the scene. Don Lemon now. And I'd say, that's right, Renee and Larry, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And I would talk for like. And they would go rap. And I was like, why'd you guys wrap me so early? They say you talked for three minutes. We wanted a two minute report. And so, and I realized, like, okay, I can do this. So it wasn't, I don't know if it was one single story, but then I realized I had the confidence to do it. And once that confidence came, I very quickly went to the network and then I just again, never really looked back.

[Gavin Newsom]

And you were what, at CNN, that career from 06, that was 17 years

[Don Lemon]

at CNN, almost 17 years. From 06 to 23. Close to 17 years. Yeah.

[Sponsor/Advertisement Voice]

Yeah.

[Gavin Newsom]

What was that in that journey? I mean, what did you. I mean, sort of the fits and starts cable, the competition in cable, CNN being, you know, with that such, you know, I mean, iconic CNN International Audience. MSNBC's now starting here, Obviously Fox begins to dominate. What was your, you know, those sort of fits and what was your experience? The tensions in the context of what was happening surrounding CNN and everyone trying to take CNN down, be more competitive. I mean, what was that, what was that journey like over those 17 years? Were there any Sort of trend lines that would, you would look back sort of that broad strokes would sort of define those 17 years.

[Don Lemon]

Well, I feel like I kind of

[Gavin Newsom]

rode

[Don Lemon]

a wave, you know, what is it, ebbs and flows or whatever. I felt like I kind of high tides and low tides at cnn. And when I came in, I think CNN was at a sort of a low tide period. And I was stationed in Atlanta

[Gavin Newsom]

and

[Don Lemon]

doing the afternoon CNN newsroom with Don Lemon and Kira Phillips. And I would do, you know, the afternoon news. And then I went to, I did. And then I started doing weekend prime time. But, you know, it was, CNN was then not. It was sort of in dissent when I first started, the ratings were very low. The shows were not very interesting. People were sort of throwing things against the wall and a lot of it was not working. And, and the, you know, the prime time anchors and times kept changing and the only constant was, I think at that time and he hadn't been, I don't think they're, you know, for a very long time was Anderson. And that was about it. It was Anderson. And then, gosh, what was his name? Aaron Brown, I don't remember. Aaron Brown was there. And so there was this sort of tug of war about what CNN should be and what its identity should be. And you know, I had this great respect for CNN and, and, and just, just the facts. And so I, I sat there for a while, you know, in that Atlanta newsroom doing the weekend news for a long time. And then I came to the conclusion that this is not what I wanted my career to be. I did not want to be the weekend anchor. I didn't want to be in the weekend ghetto, which is where they put. Seriously, at one point, all of the anchors of color were on the weekend and there were no black anchors in prime time. And yeah, in prime time and all, every single anchor on the weekend was either black or maybe Asian. And so I said, this is not what I wanted to do. And so they hired Jess Ucher to become the head of cnn. And I took a trip to New York to meet him. And I said, he said, why did you want to meet with me? And I said, because I really admire and respect you, but I, so I wanted to tell you in person that I don't want to work here anymore. And he said, why not? I said, because I don't want to waste away on the weekends. And I am, I can't live in Atlanta anymore. It's just not for me. And I said, so, you know, thank you for the opportunity. I hope that you do do well here. And he said, well, you don't have to live in Atlanta. And I said, yeah, I know that. And he goes, no, no, no. I mean, you don't have to live in Atlanta. You can still work for cnn. Sorry, I didn't know I would do this. Moved to New York. And I said, what? Because no one had ever spoken to me that way. And he said, you know, I really believe in you. And I've been watching your coverage. This was during Newtown. And he said you were the best correspondent that we had, an anchor in the field because you, you stationed yourself right in front of the, the memorial, and you're the best thing that we have. And he said, and during the Whitney Houston coverage, you're the best reporter in the country. And he said, I really want you to stay here and I promise you, you'll have opportunities. I moved and I became the 10pm acre for eight years, almost nine years. So, yeah, sorry.

[Gavin Newsom]

But when someone believes, you know, it's.

[Don Lemon]

Someone believes in you like that. It's just, it means a lot.

[Gavin Newsom]

I love that. I love that.

[Don Lemon]

Sorry, How.

[Gavin Newsom]

And you. Jeff, Jeff was there for how many years? When did that, when did that shift?

[Don Lemon]

I think Jeff started in 13, and he was there till 22. 21. 22, yeah. 22, yeah.

[Gavin Newsom]

And you, you lasted another year or so at cnn and, you know, and we don't need to tread over that,

[Don Lemon]

but, you know, you can ask me whatever you want. Gavin.

[Gavin Newsom]

No, man, because, I mean, you know, but so much reporting, you've talked about it in so many occasions, but I mean, you know, just reinforcing for that for you, that, that, I mean, that was a big surprise, right? I mean, you objectively didn't see that necessarily coming.

[Don Lemon]

No, I didn't see it coming.

[Gavin Newsom]

He.

[Don Lemon]

He tried to give me. Jeff and I became very close and. But I think he tried to give me a hint that something was stirring, and I didn't pick up on it. I remember having a conversation with him about something. I wanted some advice and I said, I just need to know about this. And he said, well, there's something that has caused me some trouble lately, and I just wasn't paying attention to it. And then, you know, within a week or two, he resigned. And, you know, and, you know, the first call, I, I'm not sure if he called me, if I called him. And I said, you know, nothing changes. I still love you. And he said, yes, same here. And that was that. And they told me, I was told not to say anything about it on the air. And so you know me, right? You told me not to do something. So the person who has. Look, when I said I rode the, the ups and downs of cnn, by the time Jeff left cnn, we had had the highest ratings we'd ever had in the history of the network and the biggest profits that we'd had in the history of the network. And it was because it was through his leadership. And so because he had what he had done for me and what the, what he had created at that network where people are extremely, usually in te. Are extremely competitive, it's very political and, you know, this person doesn't like that person and whatever. We all had our own thing. Like, don, you do 10 to midnight, Anderson, you do eight or eight to 10 or whatever. And we had our own thing and nobody, I didn't, you know, I wasn't jealous of Anderson. I didn't want his spot, he didn't want my spot, or, you know, none of that. We all had our own lane and we all liked working with each other and it's just a great working environment. And I had been at FOX and NBC and I knew, like, this was something that was unusual and people did not. If you had not been through a sort of traditional background where you went from station to station to station to, you know, work your way up, then you wouldn't know this. You would just think that it's like this all the time. And, and so when, when they said don't say anything, I didn't, I, I didn't write it in the teleprompter. But, you know, before the show, 10 seconds before the show, I hit click enter and I put it in the teleprompter. And it was my goodbye to Jeff. And I said that we lost the heart of this network and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And then I said, now we'll do what Jeff wants us to do, and that is go on and tell the news without fear or favor or however I worded it. And then I went on to do the news and. Because I just, I'm a very loyal person. And I think that especially if someone dedicates their life and to a company, that they deserve to get credit for it because nobody is perfect. And Jeff had looked out for so many people and to have someone, to have no one stand up for him or say anything about him, just have him disappear, I just think it was untoward, unprofessional, inhumane, and just lacking of any heart or any integrity. And. And then, you know, a Year or so later, the same thing happened to me. They just said, okay, goodbye. And I didn't even get to say goodbye. I didn't. I never got to say goodbye to my audience or anything. Even my coworkers.

[Gavin Newsom]

Do you think, I mean, was it, do you think that night. And the reason you're highlighting it, besides the loyalty, is that was the seed that, you know, ultimately was planted in terms of just the distrust perhaps the new leadership had ultimately in you. Or did. Or did you. Or did that they were already in that mindset of transition beyond just Jeff, looking at the talent, even you earlier.

[Don Lemon]

Yeah, I think that they, I don't think they wanted me there from the beginning. And as a matter of fact, you know, I think for a while they were okay, they were going to try to figure out what to do with me, but I, I know for a fact that, that they did not want me. And there were other people at the network that they weren't happy with. And so I did know that. But I think it was harder to get rid of me than anyone else because how do you get rid of the gay black guy without getting all kinds of, you know, criticism? So what you have to do then is, is destroy someone's reputation. And I think that. And not that I think I know that's what they did because reporters would call me and saying, we're getting all these news store negative news stories about you that we have never heard about you in all the years that you've been at cnn. And the calls are coming from inside the house. And so these people were, you know, leaking stuff to reporters, false information. And the reporters would call me up and say, hey, don't. Heads up. I'm not going to tell you who it is, but. Because that would, you know, wouldn't be, it would go against journalistic integrity or just being a good journalist. But you better watch your back because the calls are coming from inside the house. And I'd say thank you very much for that. And they, you know, again, I can't tell you who, but yeah. And then, and then later after I left, I found out that it was true. Like 100 true from the source, one of the sources who was inside the house.

[Gavin Newsom]

And so they were just looking for that moment, whatever it might be. And obviously the Nikki Haley comment became that moment. Or do you feel it was that? Or. I mean, obviously they wanted you to move on, but did you? Were you. I mean that when you made that comment, which, you know, you didn't even think twice about it, right? Did you?

[Don Lemon]

No, no. When I made the comment, I didn't think twice about it because I said, if you actually go back and look at the video and read the transcript, I said, I'm not saying I believe that. And so what I was trying to say in that moment, I could have been clearer about it, but, you know, it's on tv and everything was, you know, you're going. And they're like, oh, you got to get to the break, or whatever. But what I was saying is that is how society treats women.

[Gavin Newsom]

Right.

[Don Lemon]

But that's not what I believe. And so they took that and used it as, you know, pretext. And I told. I explained to them what I meant, and, you know, they wanted to write an apology. I said, why am I apologizing for something that I didn't really say? And then. But, you know, hey, it is what it is. And it was a blessing in disguise, I believe. But what I. What the. The most disheartening thing about it was that I knew Nikki Haley and we had a pretty good relationship, and she immediately fundraised off of it rather than saying, don, what did you say? What did you mean? And so she used it for political expediency, which was, to me, it was like, wow, does she have any integrity at all? Because if Nikki Haley or someone that I knew even just sort of tangentially had said something about me, I would call them up and say, what do you mean by that? And. But she never did that.

[Gavin Newsom]

Yeah, well, I mean, I don't want to fast forward. I'm just thinking about the fundraising we've seen with Donald Trump off the death of an American soldier in this Iranian war and the lengths to which, dare I say, politicians will go to exploit those things. Don, when you.

[Don Lemon]

When you also, I mean, look at the. Look at how the. Over the death of Charlie Kirk, there were a lot of people who grifted off of his death. I do. I believe in the Republican Party. A lot of people made money and fundraising off of his death. Yeah. Sorry to interrupt.

[Gavin Newsom]

No, hardly. And I want to get to all that, but I want to go back to, you know, I love this, you know, notion of confidence and, you know, and shaping on your journey and how every sort of level and every sort of relationship to newsrooms, journalism, local, state, national, on the field in, you know, running your own shows, different. Different moments in different times and networks. But so you're all of a sudden now, man, you're out after all these years, sort of midstream, your career sort of peak Don Lemon, everybody knows you. You've branded yourself in pretty remarkable and iconic ways. And now you're out in those moments, you know, not having a chance, as you say, to even talk to your audience and, you know, say goodbye. I mean, so how just on a personal level, I mean, was that. I mean, how shattering was that to your confidence? Forget your brand, forget your professional life, but just to you as a person, you're like, was there a lot of introspection? Was there, you know, what any. Were you moments of real doubt? Did you feel you weren't declined personally in terms of just, you know, feeling depressed, anxious, What I mean. Or, you know, tell us a little bit about that journey in the immediate aftermath. Aftermath.

[Don Lemon]

God, that's so much. That's a lot. How much time do you have? I. Look, I, I know that nothing lasts forever. I mean, you know, you think you have term limits. We have term limits. And when we, when we hold jobs, as. I never thought that the CNN job would be forever, but I thought that I would be treated with way more respect and kindness after dedicating so much of my life and career. And, you know, there were years and years where I did not take vacations. I don't think I took a vacation for 10 years. And finally they said, don, you got to take a vacation. Like, you have to take a couple days off. And so I just thought that I would, you know, I did not like my exit from cnn. But I gotta be honest with you, when my agent, Jay Souras, called me and there was a little bit of relief, I gotta be honest, because I did not like the direction the network was going, and it did not feel the same, and people were not happy working there, and people were afraid to even say things. And, you know, like, I don't know, we may be being bugged. And it was just really weird. It was a weird time to be there, seriously. And so there was a little bit of a relief. But then, but also, you know, I was like, you know, what the. The, like, guys, you know, I've been a big part of this network, and there are people there who I really love and who really love me. And what about all the people who, you know, dedicated night after night watching me, like, I don't get to say goodbye and, you know, and you don't trust me enough to go on air live and, and be like, you know, and. And what do you expect me to say? Like, you expect me to tell the. You're worried that I'm going to tell the truth about what you were doing? Is that and, and how you want it? You railroaded me. Is that what you wanted? Is that what you were afraid of? So look, but afterwards I never felt diminished because my mama raised me right. And you know, I've never seen a righteous forsaken nor his seed begging bread. So I never thought that, I never thought that I was diminished. And every single day I was reminded of and I am now, in the beginning it was, we miss you on cnn. I can't believe that you're gone. Oh gosh, we miss you. And I still hear that now. But more so I hear, oh my God, I love what you're doing. I love what you're doing now. This is so great. I love you even more than when you were on cnn. So some things are a blessing in disguise. And so it was, for a while it was, it felt weird not being at the matrix of every big story that happens in the world as I always was. And so that part was a little disconcerting. And then like what am I going to do with my day? Because I had so many responsibilities. And then I said, just said I'm going to take a year off and then in that year I'm going to decide what I want to do. And at the end of that year if I, if there is no passion to do anything, then I'll take some more time off. But I had the luxury to do that because, you know, I got fired without cause. So they had to pay me and I had three and a half more years left on my contract. So I was like,

[Gavin Newsom]

nice.

[Don Lemon]

I didn't, I want to sit here with my feet up for a long time. I can do it. So. Yeah, but more than anything it was insulting the way that they, that, that my exit was insulting. And many of the people I respected who were in leadership positions at the network showed their true colors and their, their lack of the backbone in any sort of morals. They were everybody's, is pretty much a survivor. I just, you know, I just got to keep my job. I can't speak up and I say, oh God. So that part, you know, was a little bit tough. And the other part is too that the only thing that there's one other thing that really gets to me and that is people believing some of the things that they read about me that are not true, that I am a misogynist or anti woman. And that really hurts. Especially growing up in a family of all women, being the only boy and having my mom and my grandmother and my sisters and you know, all the Women in my neighborhood raise me. It's like. And then having every, like every single opportunity pretty much for a young woman, talent or correspondent came through my show, my show, and my showrunner, executive producer Maria Spinella, woman. We would look for those opportunities to invite new people on. And many of those new people were women starting at the network. And we were like, we need more women. If you want to get something done, you hire a woman. So we would bring them on. And so a number of the people that I gave opportunities to, you know, this kind of disappointing, but other than that, I don't look back. And I just had to figure out what was next in my life. And. And I figured that out.

[Gavin Newsom]

And you figured it out, though, first by.

[Don Lemon]

With therapy, too. Don't forget that part is very important. Therapy and some good antidepressants.

[Gavin Newsom]

Wow, look at that. Appreciate. Yeah, I appreciate the, the honesty.

[Don Lemon]

I don't. I don't believe I like to take the stigma off of mental health. And I did not want to do antidepressants for a long time when I left cnn. But I did have a therapist. And I knew, you know, I'm smart enough and I'd been around enough to know that you need to talk about those things and even if you don't get on antidepressants or whatever it is, you need to discuss it. And finally my therapist said, I said, you know, I don't think I need it right now. I don't think I really need. Need it. And he says, you know, the Lord helps those who help themselves. And I said, okay, send me a prescription. And it's weird because, you know, I was. I was okay. But then all of a sudden, life came back in, like, in living color. Vivid. Wow. Yeah. And even the. The sessions, the talk sessions with my therapist, I got more out of it. They became more productive. And I started to enjoy being at home and spending time, like, you know, with my husband and cooking for him, like, hey, I made a great dish. When you get home, wait, you're going to see this. And then. And spending time with my dogs, I was like, this is really an opportunity that I may not get until finally one day when I retire. And so, yeah, that after all that, did I go through all of those things? Yes. But I want everybody out there to know I went through it. Not alone. I had help. I had friends around me, I had therapists. And I also went through. Was open to, you know, if I needed a little help from an antidepressant, I did it.

[Gavin Newsom]

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[Gavin Newsom]

That journey, though, you took a call from Twitter, Took a call from X. Took a call first. Let's, let's not forget a little bit of Elon Musk. Don Lemon, come on. What was that? So you landed on the Lemon Drop. We'll get to all this. You know, Don Lemon, show your network and everything you're doing now and how you're crushing it. But you took a little bit of a detour hoping, you know, to, to build a network platform or at least platform on, on their network, right? Did Elon Musk call you? You called him?

[Don Lemon]

I. Well, it was, it was basic. It was basically the only thing that I could do because I was still contractually obligated to cnn, right? I had contractual obligations so I couldn't take a job in cable unless I just wanted to lose all or get sued. So I couldn't do that and broadcast. There were stipulations on any, anything that I did, there were stipulations on it. And so I had to renegotiate my exit with cnn and I finally got them to agree to digital and, and which was I smart at the time? I didn't realize how smart it was because that's where everything was going. So as all this was happening, I started to realize like, why, why do I want to go back to traditional television because it's on the decline. And, you know, Elon Musk had put out there that he wanted to, you know, I should bring my show there like Tucker did. And. And then I got a call from Ari Emanuel, who said, wait, which one? I forget. All right, yeah, Ari. Ari, yeah. Rom is the bro in Chicago and saying, you know, yeah, you should. You should try this with. And Ari was not my agent. He was friends with Elon Musk. And I said, okay, well, I'll take his phone call. You know, I'll take his phone call. And we talked for a little bit, and then I talked to him one or two times, and once it was a long conversation. They were in Paris, he and his mom. His mom was sitting at the table. And as we were talking, it was a nice conversation. And then. But I decided that I wanted to wait. I knew that Elon was kind of an erratic person. Like, you know, and I don't mean that in a derogatory way, but, you know. Right. And so I said, they were going to hire this woman from NBC. God, I can't even remember her name now. And who had to run.

[Gavin Newsom]

To run their new platform.

[Don Lemon]

To run their new platform. And I said, I'll wait till, you know, another adult comes on board and someone who's, you know, who knows how to deal with these things. And then the. The conversations picked back up, and eventually she convinced me to do it under the. With the agreement that I would have complete editorial control and that I would have to, at sometimes at some points, criticize even the owner of that platform. And she said, yes, that's great. We love it. That's what he wants. That's what we want. And then, you know, the first interview, that's not what he wanted.

[Gavin Newsom]

Or with Elon Musk, for those that don't know. You, you. You. You sat down and you interviewed your boss, Elon Musk, and that was a hell of an interview. I mean, you came in, you know, what'd you. Let me ask you, would you. What'd you make of the interview? You thought.

[Don Lemon]

No,

[Gavin Newsom]

were you. I mean, clearly he wasn't prepared for your line of questioning. Were you prepared for his response? You knew what you were doing. I mean, you knew what you were doing. Of course you knew what you were doing.

[Don Lemon]

I was. I prepared for his response. Look, I never know what someone's going to say, and I never assume, but, yes, I'm prepared in the sense that I can just sit there and listen to it or. And. Or I can, you know, challenge or question or follow up on certain things because that's what journalists do. And so, but during the interview I asked him about Most of the things 90s some percent of the time of that interview, I asked him about things that he had said publicly or things that he had done publicly. And so I didn't, you know, you should be able to answer that. And I didn't think that I, you know, attacked him in any way. I, I, that wasn't the intent at all. And I was, the intent was to. One is just to be a journalist, to ask him questions and in, in a way to show people that, that, that two people who come from different backgrounds and who have different sort of political beliefs and ideologies that we could actually sit and have a conversation and disagree with each other and it would be good for the platform, which is exactly what he wanted, to sort of moderate the platform so that it wasn't so far right and it wasn't so extreme. And that was it. That was the only goal was to have a great conversation with him and say, hey, see, this is what I'm trying to do here. I'm not going to change what I, who I am or what I believe because I'm going on a, you know, I'm doing business with Elon Musk and you see him as a sort of right wing radical or whatever it is. I'm still going to be Don, but I'm going to go on that platform and try to do what he said, what he wanted. And what I wanted is to try to moderate it a little bit. That was it. But didn't work out that way, did it?

[Gavin Newsom]

Did you, did you feel the pressure? I mean, I imagine you got a lot of input. People saying, what the hell you doing over there, Don? You're, don't sell out. Oh yeah, etc. So you, I mean, you must have then, I mean, I'm just curious. Did you, I mean, you must have then come in, you came in that interview with a little bit of, you know, you're going to have to overcompensate for that, right? You're gonna have to demonstrate that in that interview. No, I mean, did you feel like you didn't feel that you just.

[Don Lemon]

I don't feel that kind of pressure.

[Gavin Newsom]

You never felt that?

[Don Lemon]

No, you can't, no, you can't feel that pressure when you, if you're a journalist, you can't feel that pressure because I know you.

[Gavin Newsom]

Truth is, I, I know you, but

[Don Lemon]

I don't, I'm asking, I did not feel that pressure. My North Star is my North Star number one. Facts. And, and I live in reality. And I, in a way, I wanted people to understand him and I wanted to understand him because I didn't, you know, I, I don't, I'm not a tech reporter. I don't sit down and study Elon Musk. So these were just honest questions about him and what he said. And I was like, and I thought it was, as I mentioned to you in this interview, you know, about mental health and all of that. And when he said that he took ketamine because it helped him, I was like, that's great. People should know about that. And perhaps it could help someone else. And I had been doing stories on drug therapy which included there, which included ketamine, where it was where members of our military had had PSD and they started doing drug guided drug therapy. And boom, it got rid of it faster than talk therapy and it changed their lives. So I thought that was important. But, but I guess he or some people thought that I was digging into things that were personal, but he's the one who talked about it. And so I was just trying to illuminate the situation and, you know, broaden it so that people could understand him more and perhaps he would make a difference. So, no, I did not feel that pressure. I feel that. I don't think that I've been around long enough to know that from one interview that you should not feel pressured to sort of make your bones in one interview. You make your bones over time with the body of your work and not necessarily one single thing. So I wasn't really trying to prove a point there, There was no, there was no need for me to prove a point because I feel like after 17 years at CNN and however long I was at NBC that I think people know that I'm a journalist and they know what my beliefs are.

[Gavin Newsom]

And they certainly knew it after watching that interview, which would talk about.

[Don Lemon]

But that interview was prescient, Governor. Everything in that interview that came out of that interview about the great replacement theory.

[Gavin Newsom]

Yeah.

[Don Lemon]

About donating money to candidates, about diversity, equity and inclusion. Every single one of those things.

[Gavin Newsom]

Yeah.

[Don Lemon]

Became huge topics almost like eight months or a year after I did the interview. So I was sort of like looking around the corner, trying to show people what might happen. And if that is not an indication of good journalism, then I don't know what is.

[Gavin Newsom]

Look at you. Well done. I like the spike in spiking that, that spiking the mic in that respect. Yeah. No, I mean, no argument from me. What. What. In that context, though, what. Say, what. Did you get the call 10 minutes later saying, you're out of here, man? What. I mean, what happened?

[Don Lemon]

No, after that, I got a call.

[Gavin Newsom]

Were there other interviews that we never saw that were canned? I mean, what happened?

[Don Lemon]

No, another call from Jay, my agent.

[Gavin Newsom]

Oh, Jesus. Poor Jay.

[Don Lemon]

It was a. It was a rainy night. It was a rainy night in Georgia. That was a rainy night at Newark Airport. We had just landed from Austin where we interviewed him. I think we interviewed him on a Friday. And then. Or. And then we had a Saturday off or something like that. Or we interviewed him on a Saturday. I forget. And then Sunday night, when we landed, I got a call. I. I think I got a call from Jay, and he said, elon just called or something. He canceled the. The contract. And I said, okay, I'm taxing. I'm gonna have to call you back. And so as soon as we, you know, as soon as we could use the phone, my. My executive producer, Jonathan, was sitting with me, and we took the call and we were like, okay. I don't know why there was just an interview, but it was tough. We've had tougher interviews. You know, I've interviewed politicians, and as you know, you guys don't always like the questions that we ask, and it can be very contentious.

[Gavin Newsom]

That's why I like this, Don. That's why I like it on this side. This is more like it. Keep going.

[Don Lemon]

Yes, yes. And so we didn't think that there was anything that unusual. And so. But he did. And so that was that. And then we've dealt with it. It, you know, ever since. I mean, we've dealt with it. And as you know, I'm still in active litigation with him because. So I can't say much, but I think, you know, except all of this is public knowledge. Everyone knows we've already talked about this. Everything that I've shared with you. But I mean, in that back. But you know, that back and forth is something that adults I believe understand. I mean, I'm gonna share. I'm gonna, you know, share a little bit. You know, I have those conversations with you over text, like, like, man, you interviewed this person. And, ah, you know, I.

[Gavin Newsom]

You should have.

[Don Lemon]

You should have pushed him more on this and more on that and right on this. And then you can go, well, that's not. I was trying to do something else, whatever. And it's like, okay, that. All right, great. But we're still friendly. We still. We're still friends. It doesn't, you know, we don't have to fight or hate each other because we disagree with something the other person has done. I don't agree. I love my, my mom and my husband the most in the world, and I don't agree with them 100 of the time, especially being in a marriage. You know, there are very few times that we agree on, so.

[Gavin Newsom]

Well, I, I look you. So that was so. But that's the journey you talked about. You know, just, you know, the, the worst of times, the best of times, things reveal themselves, opportunities present themselves. And so you then went from that to this or did you try something in between in terms of.

[Don Lemon]

No, I went from that.

[Gavin Newsom]

You went right to this.

[Don Lemon]

So I went from. Yeah, this was. Well, this was part. That was part of this. That was supposed to be the start of this. That was going to be the, you know, my sort of seed money or first client was this. This, you know, and that. That was the agreement that we had. And so I was like, well, just because that happened, it doesn't mean that I'm gonna give up. I mean, come on, I'm Don Lemon. I'm not doing that. And so I just leaned into it and I did what where I, I did what I did best, and that was to be a journalist, to be an on air person, to go out and talk to people or invite them in in an environment or situation like this, and to discuss and to have interesting conversations and, and to serve, you know, the public. And in many ways, I'm serving my constituents in the similar. Similarly to what you do. So. Yeah, and that I just said, I, I was just dogged about in my pursuit of doing this. And so that's where the Don Lemon show has taken me to, to right where we are now.

[Gavin Newsom]

How many years now is the Don Lemon Show? I mean, this current format, I mean, you keep iterating, you know, the hot takes and lemon drops and, you know, you're doing the five, five o' clock every day hit. You're doing, I mean, this in the current format. How long you been.

[Don Lemon]

It's a lot of work.

[Gavin Newsom]

It's.

[Don Lemon]

It is a lot of work. I think the. I, I'm trying to find out the exact date of our show. Let me see. The Don Lemon Show. I'm actually googling it around right now. I think it will be two years. I think it was like two years. What is today? It may be two years today. Our first show may have dropped.

[Gavin Newsom]

Come on. On St. Patrick's Day two years ago.

[Don Lemon]

I think it may have been like March 17th, I forget somewhere around, but this is the two year mark of the Don Lemon Show. And has it been right around?

[Gavin Newsom]

What's been the most. What's been the most. I mean, for you, the most interesting part of it, what's been the biggest surprise, is it. I mean, has it been harder? Has it been easier? Has it been more rewarding? Less rewarding, you say It's a grind. I mean, it's a lot of work. What, what's, you know, what's been that journey last two years, it's.

[Don Lemon]

It's more rewarding, Gavin, in. In a real human sense, you know. You know, having someone do your makeup every day and, you know, fancy clothes and all that stuff, it. I mean, that has its, you know, perks or whatever, but it has been more rewarding in, as I say, in a real way because it's me and there's very little artifice about it. There are fewer barriers between me and the people who are relying on me to convey the news to them. Them. They. It, you know, I'm sitting in my home right now, and so they. People feel like they know me, and if they feel like they know me, they feel like it's easier for them to trust me. Right. And so I started off in a studio in midtown that I was spending way too much money on, and it was doing okay, but there was no connection there. And the audience kept saying to me, you know, you're doing cable news lite. They didn't put it that way, but that's what it felt like. And I, and I, I decided, like, I was sitting one day and I said, you know, I'm doing the same thing I did at cnn, except just a bit different. Why am I doing this? I'm going to sit in my living room every day and I'm going to do a show called live at 5 and steal it from Chuck Scarborough and Sue Simmons here in New York back in the day. And I said, I'm just going to go and I'm going to build a community. Not just going to, like a station. This is a community. And I sat here every day and sometimes there would be hundreds watching, and then a thousand would watch. In 2000 watching 3000 and 4000, then now we're up to, like, if we get below, you know, 15,000 or so, we're like, oh, we're not doing 20, you know, we're not doing great. And so that every day. And then eventually, on the total watches and views, hundreds of thousands, thousands of people watch over time, and, and, and I have created, quite honestly, the Lemon Nation. And so the, the thing that's been the most rewarding.

[Gavin Newsom]

Would you steal that from Michael Savage? Didn't he do Savage Nation back in the day?

[Don Lemon]

Oh, no, I didn't even. I never thought about that. No.

[Gavin Newsom]

Savage Nation.

[Don Lemon]

Oh, my God. Michael Savage.

[Gavin Newsom]

I'm just saying. No. Interesting.

[Don Lemon]

No, I just. I don't know how I got elimination. It just sort of came out. Elimination at first. And then I was saying, how am I going to do it? Is it going to be two ends or one? Is it le? And then N a t I o n, there's an L e M o n a T I o n. So anyways, I digress, but it has been. Look, when I left cnn, I didn't know if anybody would care if I'd ever be back on a major platform or have the voice that I had before. And. But then the moment I let that go. Yeah, it just came and.

[Gavin Newsom]

Right.

[Don Lemon]

I feel like I'm more popular now than when I was on cnn. I get recognized more on the streets now than when I was on cnn. People show up to my events more now and my speaking engagements more than when I was on cnn. It's an. It's an. It's a really odd thing that's happened

[Gavin Newsom]

and rewarding and rewarding and, and so just, you know, as you now start, you know, new media, old media, legacy media, however we want to call it, fake news, you know, as others pejoratively may frame it, this notion of independent, you know, you're being your own boss, you can, you know, your own routines, your own opportunities to continue to iterate in terms of you're building this network and this platform. I mean, what do you make just jumping right into the sort of anxiety that I imagine must be just, you know, universal over at CNN today with the changes that are about to take shape when this merger is advanced, what, you know, what. What do you think's going to become of your old, you know, stomping grounds?

[Don Lemon]

That is a very good question. I'm afraid for them. You know, I know this is going to sound weird and condescending, but in a way, I feel. I feel bad for them because they're in a tough position. When I saw it, I laughed. When I saw that they were gonna buy it, and I laughed, but I didn't mean it to, like, I'm laughing at them. I laughed because I was thinking what a blessing in disguise this was for me. And then at the same time, I felt like, man, the best journalists in the world aren't going to be able to be their best because someone is going to try to influence a news network politically with ideology and that should never happen to cnn. And so I, I, I know that there's a lot of freaking out going on at CNN right now, people not knowing what's going to happen. I do know as well, I mean, we're not, neither of us is stupid and nobody watching this is stupid. They're going to be layoffs. A lot of journalists are going to lose their jobs. They're going to end up having to do, you know, something very similar to what I'm doing. And they are in for a very rude awakening about just how easy or how hard this is to make happen. But mostly I just felt bad for journalism and for freedom of the press after that happened because the consolidation of media right now is troubling, but the consolidation of conservative media is even more troubling than that. If you look at, you know, the Ellisons now control, you know, some of TikTok in the algorithm. They have cbs, they're soon going to have cnn. Rupert Murdoch has Fox News. The, the folks at the other networks are a little bit neutered because they're afraid of Donald Trump. You know, Donald Trump has sued abc. He often talks crap about, you know, NBC and he insults reporters and all those things. So I can't imagine, well, I can imagine the consternation that's happening at CNN and I'm lucky not to be a part of it, but I feel bad that it's happening to them.

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[Bethany Frankel]

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[Gavin Newsom]

did. You anticipate, I mean, a scenario, honestly, you know, you're looking back in your career. Did it ever even enter your mind, the prospects that you'd be arrested for doing your job honestly?

[Don Lemon]

I mean, like, no.

[Gavin Newsom]

I mean, in passing, you just were like, you know, there's a scenario, you know, you made a joke, you know, a late night dinner or something. You know, did you ever really believe that possible?

[Don Lemon]

No, I didn't think it would be possible. I thought the only time that anything like that was possible is if you are, which is a very similar scenario to what happened. But, you know, if you're at a protest, right, and. And the powers that be, authorities or police or whatever it is, are trying to push people back and you get caught up in a scrum or something, you know, I thought it was possible that could happen. I've seen my colleagues get arrested on television. It almost happened to me in Ferguson, if it had not been for another officer. I was on with Wolf Blitzer and they were moving us back and I was trying to move. And the cop was going to push me and he tried to grab me. And I. I forget the. It's been a while ago, 2014 or so, and. And so I, you know, I thought that that sort of thing, possibly it could happen. But then I had a giant network behind me. It would just be like, okay, we'll. We'll take care of this. You'll be out by the time your show, whatever, blah, blah, blah. But this is a whole different sort of thing that's happened now. And so the answer to your question is in an emphatic no, never, never.

[Gavin Newsom]

When you saw what happened, the Washington Post, the FBI going in, I mean, was that. What. What was your first reaction to that?

[Don Lemon]

That the attack on institutions that we need in this country in order for this democracy to work, in order for this republic to work, that those institutions, the attacks on them are chipping, are starting to diminish those institutions. I thought that the very people who love to tout the Constitution all the time didn't. Doesn't believe in the Constitution, nor the Bill of Rights, nor the. The first Amendment. The free speech absolutists somehow don't believe in free speech absolutism. And especially as it relates to the press. It's only if people are saying favorable things about you. I mean, look at what Pete Hexeth said about, you know, this is how the headlines should be written. And I can't wait for David Ellison to take over cnn, which was.

[Gavin Newsom]

Yep.

[Don Lemon]

Than any other time. That would have been outrage. A non stop top story headlines. Right, Correct. And then for Donald Trump to tweet out, look at how I changed the media and all the people. He got fired and he sued and all. It's like, it's crazy times. And then arresting reporters. I'm just saying. Wait, give me your question again. What was that? Did I answer your question?

[Gavin Newsom]

Yeah. No, I mean, in, in just, you know, the seed that was planted as it relates to the FBI raid at the Washington Post. But, but this notion.

[Don Lemon]

Yes. With Ms. N. Nathanson, the reporter. I mean, look, she's still fighting for her phone. I still don't have a phone at this point. But she still. I don't have my phone. Yeah, they took my phone. They still have it. I mean that's, that's public knowledge. And that came out in the, in the court proceedings. The first one, my first court appearance. And they took her phone as well. And her attorneys are fighting for that. You know, there's, there's, reporters have privilege, you know, for, it's like an attorney. And so you have to be very careful about those things. And we cannot lose those things. Otherwise we are going to lose the, we're going to lose the, the First Amendment. We're going to lose the freedom of the press. Because part of that is having sources and, and being able to be trusted by those sources that you're not going to give any information away that they, they, they give you reporters go to jail over. They have, over refusing to give up a source. And then usually it ends up working out for them, saying they don't have to and they get out. But still. So we cannot lose those norms and, and those traditions because otherwise we're no better than a country that we're at war with right now. And we're saying, you know, that Iran shoots protesters. Well, so do we. And you know, we're over there because Iran, you know, jails reporters or, you know, doesn't have free speech. And that makes us no better than them. If we are acting and doing the very same things that they're doing, then what sort of moral authority do we have to be able to be there and you know, in a war and quite frankly, killing people.

[Gavin Newsom]

You, you arrested in Los Angeles, you were covering the Grammys. Why do you think they targeted you? Why you?

[Don Lemon]

I think they thought that they. I was gonna make a joke. Sorry. That I was a fashion crime, that they sent the fashion police. It was the Grammys. I'm joking. It's a red carpet joke. Why do you think they. I think they targeted me. I can't. You'll have to ask them that. But my, my opinion is that they targeted me because they have been after me for a long time. I mean, Donald Trump has been tweeting about me and talking about me for quite some time. And I, you know, from. From one day to the other, I would rather not think about Donald Trump. And when I was at cnn, I said, I asked him, do I have to cover Donald Trump every night because I'm tired of talking about him him. I'm not interested in anything that he says or does because none of it makes sense. So I think it's because, number one, you know, I worked for cnn and I was very outspoken about how I felt about him and the administration and what this MAGA movement meant and what they were doing and how they were trampling on our Constitution. And also, you know, I'm black. If you look at all the people, most of the indictments of the people who have been indicted, and a lot of them are brown, a lot of them look like me. And I think he's a racist. And, and I think that also, quite frankly, part of it is that I was the biggest name, you know, in that whole sort of church arrest thing. And perhaps if I was not there, maybe none of this would be happening to the other people. I feel a little guilt about that. So that's it? Yeah. Yeah. So why? Well, I think it's why, because he's going. The same reason that he's going after, you know, Tish James or Lisa Cook or James Comey or any of. I mean, because he can and because he doesn't like that. He doesn't like it when people don't agree with him, when you're not part of his culture.

[Gavin Newsom]

Were you done? Were you humbled, grateful by the outrage that came out of your arrest, or did you feel like folks even in your profession were a little bit timid? Didn't you know, some, you know, I'm talking in the aggregate. Did you feel was sufficient the level of outrage that came from that arrest, or are people a little too complicit this moment?

[Don Lemon]

Well, it's a combination. I was very humbled by the support that I got and, and surprised, especially in the beginning, but because there's so much going on in the world as it relates to the Trump administration. Pardon me. I think people are a bit worn, worn down. And I think that journalists now in, in at many organizations are nervous and worried about Keeping their jobs, especially now that, you know, broadcast and cable are diminishing and there aren't really any jobs, many jobs left, if any. And people are getting laid off. I think they're worried about that. So they don't want to speak up and they don't want to say anything. So. But I, I can't believe that this story is not on, you know, not one of the major headlines almost every single day because, you know, they arrested me, they arrested the other reporter. Then Pete Hegsus says, I can't wait for someone to take over. And then Donald Trump says this thing, and then they're, you know, the, the.

[Gavin Newsom]

Well, how about Brendan Carr, how about Brendan Carr saying, basically not going to renew broadcasting licenses unless you do the, our war bidding and quote, unquote, whatever the propagandists want to. Yeah, I mean, that, that's a hell of a statement, huh?

[Don Lemon]

Yes. And we, we're all in the same fight and, and we should all be on the same team. And this should be. They, the folks, the journalists, the news organizations, they have the ability to, to prioritize this. And right now they're not. They just say, you know, they'll do a couple segments on it and then they forget about it. But this has repercussions for almost everything we do. Without the First Amendment, Governor, all of the other amendments, nothing else, nothing else stands. And so this affects journalists, it affects hosts on television shows, late night hosts. Look at what happened to Jimmy Kimmel, look at what's happening with Stephen Colbert, all of it. This affects everyone, the publishing industry, books. This is long reaching ramifications. And I think, think people need to start really thinking about it, especially the news organizations who are really, in a way, hastening their own demise by bending the knee to this administration. Because if they stood up to him, more people would watch, the ratings would be better because they would say, well, yeah, damn it, they are standing up to him. But now they are being bullied by Donald Trump who's threatening to take them off the air and threatening to snatch their licenses. And then the people at home are going, I'm not gonna watch you. So, like, wake up, people. But it's hard when you have people who own the networks who believe in the same ideology and Donald Trump is their, you know, their God king. So it's, you know, what do you do?

[Gavin Newsom]

Well, I'm trying to sell those knee pads you see behind me, the signature series, these Trump knee pads. By the way, as you know, the old ones sold out. Just like a lot of the folks you just mentioned and sold out. But these, these just came in fresh batch, so they're available in pairs.

[Don Lemon]

You can, you can sell them, you can sell them to some and in bulk. Well, you should sell them to some of the parent companies of the news organization because they might not, because they need them.

[Gavin Newsom]

Oh, amen. Look, I, I could spend hours with you, Don. I, I just think, think. I hope it's not in everybody, what, what we're up against. I mean, this is code red, what you've gone through, and I appreciate your levity around all this and how you've been able to personally deal with this because you, you're, you're in litigation, you've got lawyer. I mean, this thing, this is a financial toll. This is serious. He's sending a message. It wasn't just coming after you. It was sending a message to everybody else. It's time for all of you to shut up and self censor. And we cannot afford that. We'll lose this country as you suggest. We'll lose our republic. We will, we will lose it, it in real time. This is exactly what Putin did. It's what Orban did. Erdogan. This, it's real. It's happening. It's happening a faster clip than on those other countries and it could happen here in the United States unless we call it out. And so the fact that you're not giving up and you're continuing to punch back, man, is an inspiration. I just personally want to thank you about my kids also on behalf of, you know, you know, why the damn founding fathers lived and died. And we're celebrating 250th anniversary, at least that declaration. And, you know, this is what it was all about. This is what they lived and died for. And so it's so important that we call this out and, and you continue to do that on an hourly basis, not just a daily basis.

[Don Lemon]

Thank you. May I, as a journalist, ask you a question that I really want?

[Gavin Newsom]

I don't know. It's not a curveball. Right out, since it's my podcast, it's not a curveball.

[Don Lemon]

So having said what you said and having heard Donald Trump talk about nationalizing the elections, having Republicans take over the election, are you confident that we'll have a free and fair election in 2026 for the midterms?

[Gavin Newsom]

That's an open ended question. One thing I'm absolutely confident of, we won't, will not have a fair and free election in 2028 unless we take back the House of Representatives in 2026. This guy's not screwing around. Look, you saw what happened in la. He sent out BORTAC teams the day of the election in Los Angeles on election day, on Prop 50 in order to chill free expression. Sent out a tweet that morning on Truth Social saying the election was rigged. Sent out his Department of Justice monitors, and then ultimately tried to litigate and get to the Supreme Court to say the election was fraudulently decided. He's not screwing around. You saw what happened in Fulton county, and now he's taking over that board in Fulton county that's still active, and it's happening. He talked about the nationalization of the election. Then he said, no, just 15 blue states. Save Act. It's next level. What the SAVE act is all about. That's about deciding who can vote. It's not about voter IDs trying to purge the voting rolls. And we are in litigation on that here. He's been doing that in other states. This guy is not screwing around. So our state of mind has to be, I think, very mindful that we are hardly out of the woods. Even if we're, you know, successful in neutralizing the election rigging that he tried to do with the midterm redistricting, we are getting. These fights are happening, these battles, these fronts are continuing to expand all across the United States, and. And the media cannot be complicit in that respect. Corporate leaders can't be complicit in that respect. Lawyers can't be complicit in law firms anymore. Universities need to call it back to these. Damn. Forgive me, you're triggering me, but to why I have these knee pads. And. And we can't be complicit. What the hell happened to you? You got arrested, Don. This is madness, man. That's insane. That happened in the United States. America. They detained you. FBI in the morning, handcuffed you. It's sick. This is a cancer, and we got to call it out. So, anyway, I. Yeah, I worry about it. And that's why we're fighting. We're litigation. We're winning more than. We're the court. But it's about the court of public opinion. It's about waking people up. It's about people continuing to show up for each other and for this country and for you and others that, you know, are these targets. And, yeah, I'll end on this. You know, you mentioned five or six people. I'm there. I couldn't believe the phone call I got from my friend, Governor of Minnesota. And, you know, Wallace calls And he says, look, pal, he goes, need a little bit of help? I said, whatever you need. I'm happy to be there on this. He goes, oh, no, I. I need some to help me with my litigation fund because he's trying to criminally prosecute me, and I have to raise personal money.

[Don Lemon]

The hell is that don't. I know.

[Gavin Newsom]

Happening? You intimately know.

[Don Lemon]

Yeah, I know. I mean, look, fighting. Getting a good lawyer costs money. Fighting the Department of Justice costs a lot of money, because the government never runs out of money.

[Gavin Newsom]

Nope.

[Don Lemon]

Right. They don't have to worry about the. The billable hours. And here's the sad thing. The billable hours from whatever law firm, whatever. Guess who's paying for that? The taxpayers? Yeah, we are. I'm paying for my own prosecution. So, you know, it's. It's a bizarre place to be in. And so you're right about that. I just. Thank you for answering that question, because I'm not so sure. I saw, you know, the honorable Nancy Pelosi, and she. She said that she's confident. I spoke with Hakeem Jeffries, and, you know, this was before all the talk about a. The. The. Well, actually, Nancy Pelosi was. But this is. And after was Hakeem Jeffries, and he said he was confident, but I. I just. I think that they will try anything. Anything, anything. I would not put anything past this administration. And that's why I'm nervous about it.

[Gavin Newsom]

You better be nervous, and you should be nervous, and I'm nervous about as well. But it's like. I mean, you. You. You were quoting a lot of scripture earlier in this conversation. I'll say my piece. It's faith and works as we pray. We got to move our feet, right? So I'm not. It's not. I. We ain't holding hands, having a candlelight vigil. We got to get out there, and we got to expose all this. We got to make people conscious that it's not one thing. It's all of these things stacked together. And again, no shame. It's the rule of dawn, not the rule of law. And we have no co. Equal branch of government. These guys are supine. They're complicit it. And so, yeah, you're right. All those things stacked against US and AI and Ms. And disinformation, all these relationships with. Overseas, you know, with. With antagonistic governments, that can also be. You know, I just don't trust any of these guys. And. And the great grift, the great corruption story, and, you know, how everybody sort of, you know, I. Anyway, we can unpack all that. That's a whole nother damn podcast.

[Don Lemon]

When you come on my show, know you gotta go tell your team. Tell your team that you should come on my. I think they're afraid of me. I'm like, come on.

[Gavin Newsom]

Well, after that Elon Musk interview. Jesus, no. No one's ever coming.

[Don Lemon]

I don't do. I'm not gonna do.

[Gavin Newsom]

I'm joking.

[Don Lemon]

Jesus.

[Gavin Newsom]

Just don't be sensitive about that. I'm looking forward to coming on your show and all Right. And by the way, I appreciate you coming on the this is Gavin Newsom show. So I appreciate you and, and appreciate everything you're doing and the. Your good fight and I'm sorry you have to deal with this stuff on such a personal, professional level with this administration. That ain't right.

[Don Lemon]

Thank you. Thank you, President. I mean, Governor. I appreciate it.

[Gavin Newsom]

That's what they're good. The president himself called me president yesterday. The hell is that? No resident news comes.

[Don Lemon]

I'm just saying. I'm just. I'm not going to ask you the question. I'll wait till you're on my show to ask you all those other questions. But I appreciate you having me on. Thank you. And say hello to the first lady, please.

[Gavin Newsom]

I appreciate that. Take care.

[Don Lemon]

Thanks.

[Gavin Newsom]

Thank you, bro.

[Don Lemon]

Thank you.

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