Podcast Summary

Podcast: This is Gavin Newsom

Episode: "And, This Is What The Founding Fathers Were Worried About" (with Jon Meacham)

Date: February 13, 2026

Host: Gavin Newsom

Guest: Jon Meacham (historian, biographer, author)

Overview

This episode features a candid, incisive conversation between Governor Gavin Newsom and renowned historian Jon Meacham, focusing on the state of American democracy in the age of Trump, the tension between foundational ideals and current realities, and the lessons history offers for moments of crisis. Touching on culture, polarization, the role of “myth” in national identity, and the ongoing struggle to form a “more perfect union," Newsom and Meacham examine parallels between today’s political turmoil and previous moments of American fracture, always returning to the question: can the American experiment endure, and who will ensure it does?

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Politics, Culture, and the State of Democracy

• The Blurring of Lines: Meacham observes how politics and culture are more intertwined than ever, noting that public debates now rage even over events like the Super Bowl halftime show.
  • “The notion that we would have had a debate about the halftime show in the Reagan years is a little crazy.” (02:18)
• Trump’s Strategy: Trump’s constant media presence is part of his strategy: ubiquity and exhaustion, a Hobbesian “war of all against all.”
  • “His reality show is our reality.” (01:00, 12:54)
• Reason vs. Force: The founding struggle, Meacham says, was for “reason and deliberation [to] have a chance against force and accident.” (00:11, 03:46)

2. Is This “Who We Are”? American Historical Self-Examination

• Messy Democracy: Meacham criticizes the frequent claim that current division is “not who we are,” arguing American democracy has always been messy and disputatious.
  • “What matters is what is 51% of us. And that’s where I think our tension has to be.” (03:59)
• A Multiracial Democracy—Barely: The US has “only really been a multiracial democracy since 1965," he says, emphasizing that for many, the full promise of America is much younger than 250 years old. (06:57)

3. Historical Precedent & Unprecedented Dangers

• Trump and January 6th: Meacham draws a firm line between Trump’s post-election actions and previous, even close, contested American elections:
  • “That is a difference, not of degree, but of kind.” (11:31)
  • He warns against the new, viral distrust in elections: “If you don’t accept losing, you break the social covenant.” (11:21)
• Comparisons to the Past: Throughout history, even bitter electoral rivals conceded; the break in 2020 is significant and dangerous. (11:25–12:40)

4. Objectivity, Biography, and Perspective

• The Historian’s Dilemma: Meacham acknowledges all historians are shaped by their times and subjectivity, especially in an era as fraught as the Trump years.
  • “When you paint a portrait, you do it according to the light that’s streaming in the window.” (13:38)
• On Perspective: He warns against “pundantry” and rash opinion: “Just because you have the means to express an opinion quickly does not mean you have an opinion worth expressing quickly.” (17:24)

5. The Story America Tells Itself—And Must Keep Telling

• Narrative Power: Trump told a resonant story, attracting new voters. Meacham argues for the need to tell a better, more inclusive story about America.
  • “The central work of someone like me is to tell a story that can compete with a narrative... about exclusion and walls as opposed to bridges.” (19:36)
• The Challenge of Generational Experience: For younger Americans, the story is harder—they lack tactile connections to historic triumphs, instead growing up with “September 11, [the] Great Recession, Covid, Trump, January 6th.” (25:04)

6. Populism, Discontent, and Institutional Failure

• Rise of Trump (and Left Populism): Newsom and Meacham agree Trump did not emerge in a vacuum; frustration with American institutions is deeply justified. (29:03)
• Democracy Must Deliver: The middle class’ faith in progress is essential. If democracy and capitalism don’t provide opportunities, people lose faith in the system.
  • “Democracy has to deliver or democracy doesn’t survive.” (34:21)

7. History, Myth, and the Meaning of the Declaration

• The Enduring Mission Statement: Meacham reflects on his new book and how the Declaration of Independence, more than the Constitution, serves as “scripture” for the American project.
  • “The Declaration is elevated in a way that continues to shape who we are.” (38:48)
• Myth as Necessary Fiction: Myths, in the best sense, are stories that bind and inspire collective action, not lies. (41:49–42:25)

8. Rule of Law, Agency, and the Role of Citizens

• The Social Covenant: American democracy endures only so long as the majority believe in and uphold rules—even when not in their favor.
• The Power of Individual Action: From election officials to historic figures like Frederick Douglass and John Lewis, collective progress is shaped by those who choose to honor their responsibility.
  • “Despair is a sin. Cynicism is a sin.” (48:55)

9. Reflections on Presidential Legacies and the Future

• Judging Biden’s Place in History: Meacham says Biden’s legacy depends on whether “the MAGA moment” proves brief or enduring.
  • “If this becomes a 12-year chapter, Biden's a sane island. If MAGA is ratified in 2028, it's a harder case to make for Biden." (54:52)
• Institutions Are People: The fate of democracy is decided not by abstract structures, but by the conduct of the individuals within them. (59:02–61:15)
• The Absence of Saviors: Meacham cautions against waiting for a hero: “It’s up to us. No one’s going to save us.” (51:16)

10. Crisis, Resilience, and the Lessons of the 1960s

• America’s Immune System: Surviving the crises of the 1960s required government and citizens acting together, resilience in the face of division and loss. (62:57)
• The Central Lesson: Meacham and Newsom agree: while the moment is dire, America has weathered similar storms before, and individual agency remains central.
  • “We’re not bystanders. That’s, to me, the most significant lesson.” (67:15)

Notable Quotes and Memorable Moments

• On Trump’s Reality Show Politics:
  • “His reality show is our reality.” — Jon Meacham (00:00, 12:54)
• On Democracy’s Messiness:
  • “If I do the right thing 51% of the time, that’s a hell of a good day. And a democracy is the fullest manifestation of all of us.” — Jon Meacham (06:57)
• On Conceding Elections:
  • “That is a difference, not of degree, but of kind. It is about the social covenant... You accept rules and you accept when you lose.” — Jon Meacham (11:31)
• On Despair and Cynicism:
  • “Despair is a sin. Cynicism is a sin.” — Jon Meacham (48:55)
• On Myth:
  • “A myth is a story we tell... We can either be we the people or I the powerful. That’s it.” — Jon Meacham (42:05, 43:46)
• On American Agency:
  • “In a democracy, the most important office is the office of citizen.” — Louis Brandeis, cited by Newsom (46:16)
• On January 6th and the Rule of Law:
  • “He had a sense of shame. And a lot of the reason things didn’t end in a more serious way was that Nixon, for all his faults, believed fundamentally... in we the people.” — Jon Meacham (64:59)
• On Biden’s Legacy:
  • “If this becomes a 12-year chapter, President Biden becomes the sane island between the two Trump terms.” — Jon Meacham (54:52)
• On Individual Impact:
  • “You will be honored beyond the grave if you do the right thing, and the grave is certain. Donald Trump’s approval is not.” — Jon Meacham (61:53)

Timestamps for Important Segments

• Politics and Culture Collide: (01:05–04:57)
• America’s Messy Democratic Tradition: (06:25–09:09)
• The Unprecedented Risks of Trumpism: (09:40–12:57)
• Objectivity vs. Subjectivity in History: (13:35–17:27)
• The Challenge of Generational Narrative: (25:03–27:02)
• Populism and the Failure of Institutions: (29:19–31:24)
• The Power (and Necessity) of Storytelling: (35:55–40:10)
• Rule of Law Under Siege: (41:42–44:01)
• Role of Citizens and Agency: (46:14–50:00)
• Reflections on the Civil Rights Era and Today: (46:56–52:52)
• Judging Presidential Legacy (Biden/Trump): (54:52–57:43)
• Institutions Are People, Not Structures: (59:02–61:16)
• 1960s Crisis and American Resilience: (62:59–66:11)
• Final Reflections on Agency, Optimism, and Books: (67:15–68:46)

Takeaway

Through historical analogies and sharp contemporary insight, Newsom and Meacham argue that while the current threats to American democracy are grave and perhaps unprecedented in some ways, the United States has always been a messy, contentious experiment, held together by common stories, shared ideals, and the commitment of just enough people to do the right thing. The future is unwritten—but it’s up to all of us to ensure that “we the people” remains more than just a phrase.