← This is Gavin Newsom
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- [00:00]
Jodi Sweetney
This is an iHeart podcast.
- [00:02]
Podcast Sponsor Announcer
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Gavin Newsom
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Andrew Yang
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Gavin Newsom
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Gavin Newsom
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Gavin Newsom
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Gavin Newsom
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Andrew Yang
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Gavin Newsom
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Andrew Yang
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- [02:40]
Andrew Yang
that had its act together, they would already be distributing an AI dividend. The easiest people to fire are the people you haven't hired yet. And our data is getting sold and resold for hundreds of billions of dollars a year and no one's seeing a dime. This is Gavin Newsom and this is Andrew Yang.
- [02:58]
Gavin Newsom
So much to talk about, obviously all things AI. What's going on with your new party, Forward Party, your new cell company? What's going on in the world? We're living 247 with autopsies in the Democratic Party and you know, all kinds of, you know, press conferences being canceled, including one today on AI from Donald Trump, a new EO that he's about to promote. I want to get to all of that, but first I just want to check in on what is going on with and you've got the lapel right now with the Forward Party.
- [03:30]
Andrew Yang
Where to begin? Forward Party is a positive independent political movement that thinks the two party system is going to lead us. No, nowhere good. And unfortunately we're doing great in the sense that people are increasingly despondent about the direction of the two party system. So supporting positive candidates around the country of any party with a special spot in our hearts for independent candidates like Seth Bodnar who's running for U.S. senate in Montana, Mike Duggan who's running for governor of Michigan and other candidates around the country. It being an independent is the fastest growing clinical affiliation in the US for good reason. So Forward Party is growing all the time.
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Gavin Newsom
Well, let's talk about your primary when you ran and your, your primary focus that continues to this day. And I appreciate your tenacity on it and, and have a little bit of history myself with ubi, this notion of universally basic income and we can get to all things AI, but in so many ways, you know, you were way ahead of the curve in terms of calling these things out. This notion of mincome as it's been referred to and organized in other countries, it's not necessari a new idea, but it's an idea you really brought to the fore and scaled in consciousness. But it's been a Bipartisan idea. Over the course of quite literally decades and decades, conservative economists, not just progressive thinkers, have been promoting this fundamental idea of monthly checks, minimum income that is universally distributed to address the anxieties, the burdens and the stresses, particularly now in an AI induced economy.
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Andrew Yang
Yeah, and you were open to this, too, man. I remember you quoting Voltaire at an event about how work stabs off, like, the three great sins, you know?
- [05:14]
Gavin Newsom
Yeah. It solves life's three great evils, boredom, vice, and need.
- [05:19]
Andrew Yang
Yeah. And look at this. And I was like, look at. Look at Gavin quoting Voltaire. Like, I'll have to steal that, you know, since I was quoting other people. But, yeah, this is something that is now front and center because AI has arrived. And when I was running for President back in 2019 and 2020, it was still somewhat speculative or far out, but now it's here, spending $700 billion on data centers around the country, and the major tech firms are replacing coders, and soon it's going to be customer service, and then Waymo is going to replace the drivers and on and on. And so the average Californian, the average American is like, okay, what the heck's my kid going to do when they graduate from college? And in my view, and by the way, not just my view, but also no. Dariel Amade is saying, tax us. Put in a token tax. Sam Altman's, like, National Wealth Fund based on AI. Elon Musk says universal high income, which I quite enjoy the vision. And so we need to get a move on because more and more value is going to disappear into the cloud, and more and more average families are going to be looking up, being like, what the heck happened? So, to me, universal basic income is the foundational step, but you have to keep on moving in that direction. And, Gavin, thank you for pushing us down this road. One of the biggest misconceptions about universal basic income is that it somehow is anti work. I have an Asian joke here, which is, I'm Asian. I love to work. But the fact is, if you give people more money, they'll participate in the market economy. They'll start businesses at higher levels. They'll give to their congregation or religious community at higher levels, like, it's going to supercharge the things that people actually want, which will give us a lot more to do. The other major source of jobs, in my opinion, after the private sector retrenches, which it will, would be the government. And I'd much prefer communities figure out what they'd want to pursue for work than have the government come in and say, hey, I've got a bunch of jobs for you. Like, I don't think that's the vision that most Americans want.
- [07:31]
Gavin Newsom
When you were promoting UBI, you were promoting about $1,000. It was $1,000 if I recall. Specifically, yeah.
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Andrew Yang
Oh, by the way, just for fun too, I even wrote a book recently called hey, Yang, where's my Thousand Bucks? And the alternate title, which you'll enjoy, was hey, am I Racist Or Are you Andrew Yang? Both of which I have gotten. But yeah, it's 1,000 bucks a month was a freedom dividend.
- [07:59]
Gavin Newsom
And I love that you framed it as you suggest, a freedom dividend and you were going to pay for it. I mean, it's not inexpensive. I think at the time they scored it, what, $2.83 trillion or something like that?
- [08:10]
Andrew Yang
Is that accurate order of magnitude? It's a little bit lower than that if you include current programs, which in my plan would be kind of like a trade off. It's like you get one or the other and you can elect, but let's call it 2 trillion or 2 and a half trillion just for the setup.
- [08:28]
Gavin Newsom
And the idea again was just to deal with the anxiety, create at least a baseline of money that allows people, makes the end of the month a little bit less stressful, and then provides the opportunity then to stretch the mind of imagination across the spectrum of issues, including something you've been attached to for decades. And that is a very aggressive entrepreneurial construct, this notion of startups, which you invested a lot of time, energy and resources in promoting. But what about this, as you suggest, notion that UBI is charity versus this notion of ownership that interestingly, even Sam Altman came out, as you pointed to recently, suggesting maybe universal basic capital is a better approach. This notion of an ownership society, not necessarily a charitable society, that can make everybody feel a sense of not just connection, but connection to larger cause called democracy to one another.
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Andrew Yang
In a broader sense, I'm on board. And the fact is these models were built on our data and our data is getting sold and resold for hundreds of billions of dollars a year and no one's seeing a dime. And a dividend is what a stockholder or shareholder gets. It's one of the things I framed as like a stakeholder society where you get a dividend as a result of being a member of the richest, most advanced country in the history of the world. So there are different names you could use, but that is exactly what I was going for, which is like, look, we all have an ownership stake in the future. And then we can look at our kids and say, you have an ownership stake too. You're going to be all right. And when the AI wizards develop more innovations, you're somehow getting like a tiny, tiny slice of that.
- [10:18]
Gavin Newsom
It's interesting. I appreciate the frame in the context of that. To me, it's not even a debate for us out here in California, at least it's both. And let me give you a proof point a few years back, inspired by a lot of the work you were doing and a lot of the commentary and the critique. I just, I love stress testing. This idea of increasing the number of tries be open argument, interested in evidence. And it led to us at a state level putting out $35 million of general fund to seven large scale UBI projects. And by the way, those projects are fully functioning with the cohorts class the support on their multi year pilots. And the results of all of these pilots, they targeted pregnant women, foster families, people 65 and over. In fact, we just trued it up additional 5 million. So it's 40 million. We're going to get the results of all that in an independent analysis of what it produced and stress test literally in a matter of months. And so California will, at a scale, geographic scale and demographic scale, have the ability to kick the tires further. But we're also going to be piloting this notion of universal basic capital. At the same time. We're now rolling out working with our what we created baby bonds years ago before The Trump accounts, 5.5 million California accounts up to $1,500 for all of our kindergarteners. Everyone was eligible. We put $1.9 billion of general fund money to support this program and to use these accounts for ownership, for capital accumulation, focusing on financial literacy, the notion of compounded investments. And so I'm very appreciative of what you're doing. I'm also appreciative now we're broadening the conversation to capital, to equity, to public equity, to dividends and something broader than just income.
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Andrew Yang
I'm pumped that you've been rolling these things out in California, Gavin. I have a joke which is it only counts if money changes hands. You know what I mean? And in your case, money is changing hands because like I've run companies and if you tell everyone how great a job they're doing, that works for a little while but then eventually they're like, hey, you know, is there a bonus attached? So, so the fact that these kids are getting baby bonds, incredible. Like I'm for it when California does it, I'm for it when the Trump crew does it, you know, no matter what they name it. Like, people ask me on tv, it's like, hey, what do you think of this? And I was like, look, as far as I can tell, it's money for babies. So, you know, like, I'm on board. You could call it something even worse. I'd probably be okay with it.
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Gavin Newsom
No, and I appreciate that. And I think it's important for Democrats. By the way, we had a lot of Democrats that were supporting Cory Booker was out there for years and years. Ted Cruz as well. If it's a good idea, it's a good idea, and you gotta celebrate it. To your point, even if some of us that are a little more partisan are not happy about Trump accounts, I could call them Newsom accounts. They wouldn't be happy about it. We're gonna. We'll rise above that, though.
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Andrew Yang
Yeah, yeah. Just call it something neutral, like America accounts, or, you know, it's pretty neutral.
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Gavin Newsom
I'm going to need your help. We call it Cow Kids, which is a lousy brand, but it's another thing
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Andrew Yang
Cow Kids could have been improved upon. I got to say, by the way, I have enjoyed your entire social media Persona. And one of the things I've said to folks is that Trump is a cocktail of three communication styles. Politics, and then pro wrestling. He's kind of a pro wrestling villain. And WWE hall of Famer, and then three comedy, insult comedy. And the fact is, pro wrestling and comedy both have audiences of millions every week that ignore cable news channels. And so the fact that you are tapping into these other wavelengths, I think is very, very savvy, and it serves you well.
- [14:20]
Gavin Newsom
I appreciate that. And again, not everyone does. So I'm grateful for the recognition as we try to battle it out for attention and just to get in that space. And I couldn't agree with you more. Especially, again, my party, Democratic Party, just so often a little bit humor less.
- [14:38]
Andrew Yang
No, no.
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Gavin Newsom
Dare I say. Forgive the understatement. Forgive the understatement.
- [14:46]
Andrew Yang
It's fine. I mean, I'm just this, you know, giving someone a hard time. But, like, it's something that I personally have told people. It's like, look, I think Gavin's smart to do it. I think it's working. And when I get asked about your prospects, which I do get asked, I'm like, Gavin is very, very strong in a room. Like, the dude seems like he did just walk off a Hollywood set in a good way. I mean, this is a compliment. Like you're very handsome and like, you know, tall and sun kissed and the rest of it. But I was like, look, having been in these rooms, being good in the room matters very, very significantly. Like I think Gavin's going to travel well and people are going to gravitate towards them. So you know, just, I mean as you can imagine because like I get asked about the field all the time. I also tell people I think it's going to be a governor because I think folks are going to want that kind of background and leadership.
- [15:42]
Gavin Newsom
Well, I appreciate all that and again, I'm not going to take the bait on any of it and I want to go back to this to AI.
- [15:51]
Podcast Sponsor Announcer
Support for the show comes from Public, the investing platform for those who take it seriously. On Public you can build a multi asset portfolio of stocks, bonds, options, crypto and now generated assets which allow you to turn any idea into an investable index. With AI. It also starts with your prompt. From renewable energy companies with high free cash flow to semiconductor suppliers growing revenue over 20% year over year, you can literally type any prompt and put the AI to work. It screens thousands of stocks, builds a one of a kind index and lets you back test it against the S&P 500. Then you can invest in a few clicks. Generated assets are like ETFs with infinite possibilities, completely customizable and based on your thesis, not someone else's. Go to public.com podcast and earn an uncapped 1% bonus when you transfer your portfolio. That's public.com podcast paid for by Public Investing Brokerage Services by Open to the Public Investing Inc. Member FINRA and SIPC Advisory Services by Public Advisors, llc. SEC Registered Advisor Generated Assets is an interactive analysis tool. Output is for informational purposes only and is not an investment recommendation or advice. Complete disclosures available at public.com disclosures okay
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- [19:51]
Gavin Newsom
I've been listening to you on a bunch of podcasts and I appreciate you've been out on this You've been calling us out, not just been out on the road, talking about AI and what's going on, not just with gen AI, but now with what's going with agentic AI as it moves and morphs into this next iteration. And talking about compute, not just talking about data centers, but talking about tokens, talking about digital privacy and this notion of a digital dividend that can look many different forms and shapes, but this notion of AI anxiety, this notion that they're coming after my jobs. We talk about white collar workers now having so much more in common with blue collar workers. You could be talking about a 25 year old that's not getting any interviews, that just graduated a few years ago and is having a hard time and sounding a lot like the old factory work in Ohio that, you know, bucata worker white collar rhetoric is starting to come together and I think a new coalition in many respects around anxiety. And so I'm curious where you are on the spectrum, the doomer versus the utopia spectrum. Is it coming sooner than we think? The displacement is coming faster? Is it coming in different shades? Meaning the people you don't hire is a form of that displacement? Because those are the easiest people, as you suggest, to fire. The people you don't hire, is it coming first to entry level jobs, clerical jobs? Is it happening in the physical AI space? You talk about Waymo, then we could talk robots. I mean, give me a sense of where you are on the spectrum of AI and the spectrum of where we should be, what we should be thinking about.
- [21:33]
Andrew Yang
Well, first let me share a story to help set this convo up. Gavin. So I was a CNN commentator for a while and at one point the team approached me and said, hey, we were thinking of doing a TV show called the Future of with Andrew Yang. It'll be like the future of healthcare, the future of transportation. I said, all right, that sounds good. They come back 10 days later, said, hey, Andrew, we ran a focus group, bad news. Americans don't like the future. And that was kind of tough to hear. And this was a few years ago. So when you talk about the hostility towards AI and grads booing the commencement speakers, Americans don't feel great about the future because they don't think it's going to include them. They don't think they're going to be among the beneficiaries. And they are stone cold correct. You know, like I have AI, you don't. Or maybe you can, you can like use it, you can pay for it, but you're talking about the formation of multiple trillion dollar companies. You're going to have our first trillionaires. And then the average family looking up in central California or central Missouri is like, okay, like I don't think I'm going to win as a result of this. And so if you give me a chance to boo or to protest the data center, like, I'll take that. And so the question is, how do you make that person feel like they're winning? And I'm going to go back to what I said before is like, it only counts if money changes hands. So if the big winners from this, and I do think some of the AI High chieftains are getting wise to this because they know that people are turning on them so completely they've got to share the winnings as quickly and broadly as possible. Now to your question of like, where am I in terms of how bad it's going to get for workers and what sequence the rest of it? No, I look at the same data that you do, maybe a better data than I do because you're a governor and you get like some, some internal secret stuff. But, but the big companies are replacing first coders, then customer service, then various white collar functions, then slowing down entry level hires. College kids now have an underemployment rate of, let's call it 48% or something along those lines. And so it's getting sped up. I'm 51 years old and I tell people if I don't get dumber in a given month, it was a good month. So AI probably got twice as smart in the same timeframe. So then saying what we're going to do is train people and have them upskill. I mean, by the time I complete the program, AI got eight times faster. So you know, like what? That's not a real plan. So like it probably sounds pretty pessimistic, my analysis. But I sit down with CEOs the same way you do and the CEOs tell me, look, I'm going to fire 15% of my staff this year, another 20% two years from now, and another 20% two years later. And then after that, who knows now are they going to go on CNBC and say that? Probably not. But have I heard that from now a dozen different CEOs of both public and private companies? Yes, I have. And so you hear that over and over again. And by the way, even for me running Noble Mobile, our CTO came and said, hey, guess what? We're going to take down the job posting for junior engineers. Because I think I can now get it done with AI. And so that's the, you know, the easiest people to fire are the people you haven't hired yet.
- [25:03]
Gavin Newsom
So, you know, we're having the same conversations. And by the way, the people, these folks running these frontier labs are saying it out loud. I mean, as you noted, Dario's saying it out loud. And anthropic open letter, basically an essay that was written by Sam Altman in OpenAI around the anxiety. And so they see, they may not see the pitchforks coming, but they certainly see into the future and the trend lines here that are becoming headlines.
- [25:31]
Andrew Yang
I mean, Sam had a tax on his house that was a modern day pitchfork. So I think they're feeling it. And by the way, I think the lapse here, it's like the level of federal dysfunction is actually a major impediment because if you had a government that had its act together, they would already be distributing an AI dividend, in my opinion. And I think a lot of the AI companies would be forking over cash to keep the pitchforks at bay just out of enlightened self interest. There's a sense that people are greedy beyond any other measure. And I think that enlightened self interest from a lot of these tech CEOs is like, look, they know they're going to have plenty of money. And what I joke about is life is better outside the bunker than in the bunker. No matter how much money you have, that bunker is not that nice. Miss the sunlight. So I think that there is a grand bargain to be had. But our government is asleep at the switch or just cheerleading for the AI firms. And even if the AI firms are raising their hands and saying, hey, please do consider taxing me, then at the same time, they have $150 million in lobbying cash that they'll use to bomb anyone who does something they don't like. And so there are a lot of legislators who are like, okay, are you sincere about this? Or are you just trying to make yourself look good? And then if I suggest it, all of a sudden I'm going to have eight figures spent against me.
- [27:02]
Gavin Newsom
And I mean, that's played out, obviously. And I think, what is it out in your neck of the woods? Is it the 12th congressional?
- [27:08]
Andrew Yang
Alex Boris. Yeah. Who I find to be totally reasonable, passed a sensible AI safety bill as a New York state legislator, which, by
- [27:20]
Gavin Newsom
the way, full disclosure, Andrew, was modeled after the bill that we passed here in California, SB53.
- [27:27]
Andrew Yang
That's right.
- [27:28]
Gavin Newsom
So I couldn't agree with you more. The sensibility of the bill. It was a large language model, LLM, Frontier Safety and Transparency Bill, and just the second in the country, and one, by the way, broadly embraced by tech. But he hasn't necessarily been.
- [27:47]
Andrew Yang
Yeah. And by the way, the irony of the attacks on Alex Boris Gavin are you have these ads of him looking very mean and scary and then say he worked for Palantir. You can't trust him. And meanwhile, the folks who are funding that ad are the AI companies themselves that are just trying, you know, and Alex, of course, it's like, I did work for them, and then I became a state legislator, and I'm trying to do good things. And so this goes back to the conversation around incentives is that legislators know, it's like, look, if I take on the AI industry in a way that they don't like, it's going to reduce my job security. And so if I, you know, kind of hand wave or like, walk around the block a little bit, like, you know, I mean, and I do think Republicans are more guilty of this right now because, again, they have just been reduced to cheerleaders for the industry even as their voters are turning on AI. You know, there's like a fascinating disconnect. AI has a 26% approval rating right now, and I think that's lower than ice. So it gives you a sense how bad it is. And I think it's trending negatively, not positively, even though it's already quite low.
- [28:57]
Gavin Newsom
What do you make of. I mean, you know, obviously with David Sacks, he's no longer, quote, unquote, formally there, as the crypto and AIs are. I mean, Trump came in very enthusiastically, sort of ripped off the band aid, rolled back some of the executive order, at least directionally rolled back some of the policies of the prior administration, the Biden administration. There was efforts to undermine our safety and frontier model legislation led by not just members of the Trump administration and Sachs, but people like Ted Cruz that didn't want to see any regulations. There was an effort to preempt states from taking that role and responsibility. And we're highlighting Alex and how he's the burden and beneficiary because there are tech people that are buying him as well. He's an interesting case study. There's nuance into who's going after him and then, interestingly, who's supporting him. A lot of folks out here in Silicon Valley are actually supporting Alex. I think he's getting more of his money from California than he even is from Manhattan. In an interesting twist in the saga of his election. But what do you make of, you know, where Trump is now, particularly today, where he allegedly was going to come out with a new executive order and was gonna have a press conference. He pulled back the executive order, press conference the last minute. People are speculating as to why, but it was a sense that now they've woken up in a Mythos world. Anthropic, put out mythos, they quickly pulled it back. Cybersecurity, red flags everywhere. And that may have woken these guys up a little bit. No, Trump and Bessant and others to. We got to pay a little more attention to here, the safety sides of things.
- [30:41]
Andrew Yang
Yeah. There was apparently a freak out that Mythos could be used to hack through a lot of systems and infrastructure. And so they did have, like a wake up call. I don't know what's going on with this delay, but what's interesting is that I think Trump and some of his team have realized that a lot of their people, their voters, are very, very dubious of AI and that if left unchecked, AI could rip through federal systems in a way that would be disastrous. And so they're trying to be responsive. And I think they will end up announcing some measures around having to look at frontier models before they're released. One of the jokes I have been telling is that there are more regulations to open a hot dog stand than launch a new model that's going to impact millions of people. It's like I could just use people as guinea pigs, whereas I couldn't use them as guinea pigs on my hot dogs without someone making sure that they're kosher, so to speak.
- [31:48]
Gavin Newsom
Yeah, I mean, it's nothing funny about that joke. I mean, it's fact, isn't it? I mean, it's a remarkable fact.
- [31:55]
Andrew Yang
Yeah. Man, these are strange times, but the public is heading a certain way. I think there's a big political void, and I do think people in both parties are going to move to fill it, which I applaud because to me, it's crazy that we don't have more sensible guidelines. We missed the boat on social media. Our kids paid the price. We're missing the boat on AI. And young people and workers, in my opinion, are about to pay the price. And so there's going to be a political backlash as a result.
- [32:29]
Gavin Newsom
So as we focus on safety and we focus on the intended and unintended consequences of AI in that prism, we talk about jobs and job loss and the anxiety and how it's beginning to manifest. Certainly a lot of headlines suggest it's Already taking place in shape. It's geographically dispersed. So it's a more challenging thing. It's not reflected necessarily on the factory floor. It has been automation generally, certainly, but not reflected necessarily with clerical workers that, you know, it's harder to see what's happening in terms of those job losses. But WARN act, the WARN act itself, it seems to me it's worn out its usefulness. It was designed, like our labor laws, 1930s. These things were designed for a world that no longer exists. Unemployment insurance seems to me to have worn out its benefit. What about employment insurance? What about the opportunity to really scale portable benefits? What about modernizing the Warren act and having early warning systems? What about, I mean, what are, what are the conversations we need to be having now at scale to reform our systems to prepare in real time for what's happening in real time on our watch?
- [33:45]
Andrew Yang
Yeah, tying health insurance to jobs is super dumb. I think most people realize that. And by the way, it's an impediment to entrepreneurship. There are a lot of people that would start businesses or they didn't need health insurance for their families. And health insurance now is very expensive. And so, you know, like, if I start a company, I'm like, kind of running a massive risk. So portable benefits would be, to me, like a massive step in the right direction. But like, I'm still for universal basic income or the equivalent, because I think it's going to become increasingly necessary. And one of the, the topics I think you and I both are passionate about is what's happening to men and young men where labor force participation just continues to decline. They have lower rates of both high school and college graduation, lower rates of family formation and dating. You know, they're going home. They don't think that anyone has a use for them. And on the far end, they do get radicalized by the Internet. They start blaming someone for their problems. And so to me, like, there are supports to try and help people who are in jobs, but I just think we need to be doing much more to stimulate activity and paths so that folks feel like I bring something to the table, even if what I bring to the table is just my magical AI dividend so I can come out and like, you know, buy a beer. I mean, people aren't drinking either. So maybe I should use a different example, you know, like, buy a burger with my friends. You know, like, some of the fundamental issues are to me only addressable with very, very big, dramatic actions. And one of the things I like about you, Gavin, is like, you hear this Stuff and you're like, yeah, Voltaire, let's do it. I mean, not like you actually say that, but you know, but you've got part of it might be because you're the governor of California, which I dare say is the most abundant state in the country in terms of a growth mindset.
- [35:46]
Gavin Newsom
Yeah, no, well, I appreciate that. And again, you just got to, I mean, an entrepreneur. Remember I started right out of college, opened my first business, grew it to about 21 small restaurants and hotels and wineries. Not to impress you to say that, but depress upon you that that entrepreneurial mindset, a willingness to try to take risks, not be reckless. Recognition that you have agency, you can shape the future. We're not victims. It's decisions, not conditions that determine our fate and future. Recognizing that businesses can't thrive in a world that's failing. So I want a customer base that is successful and thriving and recognizing Andrew, in the spirit I think that defines you and I, that you can't be pro job and anti business as well. That we should be supporting business formation and entrepreneurialism.
- [36:31]
Andrew Yang
Dude, one of the most consistent things that happened to me when I was running for president in Iowa, New Hampshire, South Carolina is I'd run into a business owner and they'd say, hey, you're running as what? I'd say a Democrat. And they really thought Democrats did not like them as small business owners. And it made me so sad because it was like I came up as a small business owner and like you guys are the backbone in life's blood of this town, of our workforce. So that was something that really stuck with me. I mean, I'm sure, you know, you get versions of it anyway. I mean, but like, just like you, I came up as a small business owner and it's still what makes me tick.
- [37:08]
Gavin Newsom
Why we, Andrew, then, as supporters and champions of small business, why do we have a tax system, particularly when productivity and wealth are now being rewarded? Robots, technology, automation. Why are we taxing then human labor? Why we have payroll taxes and yet have tax code that actually rewards automation in terms of write offs.
- [37:39]
Andrew Yang
Exactly. And I'm so glad you raised this, John Arnold. Vinod Khosla. Me. Sounds like maybe you too. Heck, even Jeff Bezos the other day, if I heard him right, where you tend to tax things you want less of. So taxing jobs via payroll taxes and other costs discourages hiring. Meanwhile, if I do automate hundreds of thousands of jobs away via AI, I get to keep virtually all that money because it's going to be Going through some mega corp and, you know, and I'm not paying a lot of taxes on that. Maybe I make it so I have no profits. We're emphasizing the vortex that is AI and capital and data as it sucks up more and more energy and jobs. And then the small business owners just trying to employ people in their community has to pay up out the nose for, you know, their Social Security taxes and payroll taxes and healthcare in many cases. I mean, we should be going line by line to what that small business owner is paying and be like, let's see if we can get rid of that.
- [38:47]
Gavin Newsom
Unpack it. What? Where are you? And we talked briefly about physical AI. You know, we're seeing it. You brought up Waymo. Anyone who's been to San Francisco, you could be seven deep at a stop sign with seven driverless cars in front of you.
- [39:02]
Andrew Yang
You must have been in them already, right, Gavin?
- [39:04]
Gavin Newsom
I mean, I remember Andrew. I'm old enough gray hairs to prove it. When I was sitting there with Larry and Sergey in the parking lot at Google in basically a golf cart that was driving itself. And just never forget that experience. The first iteration of that decade or so ago. I mean, now it's going to be Joby Aviation and Archer and others competing for the version of the flying taxis.
- [39:29]
Andrew Yang
Yeah, the first time I rode in a Waymo, just commercially was in California last summer. Whatnot. I took a little social media video and really enjoyed it. And then after I got out and thanked the driver that wasn't there, I just thought like, yeah, we're fucked up. Which I set out. But it was a great experience in the sense of I felt perfectly safe after the first 30 seconds. You don't have a driver in your case? I don't speak to myself like, I'm kind of a public figure too, so sometimes not having a driver is kind of preferable to having a driver. You know, you can, like, play the music you want if you feel like it. You can have a private embarrassment conversation you want, you know, so like, I, I got out and was like, yo, this thing is coming fast and furious. And I'm someone who, by the way, is more dubious of, like, robots performing certain types of tasks. But I have very smart friends who are like, look, the factories in China don't even have light switches anymore because, like, it's all just robots doing stuff in the dark. And they can run 24, 7, 7 days a week. So the robots are real and coming. And America, unfortunately, has ceded a lot of the robotics industry and manufacturing. And so we don't see it in the same way we don't feel it. And I will say, I think that there'll be human plumbers, human H vac repair, you know, for the foreseeable. But apparently the robots are coming, you know, so it's like AI and the cognitive work and the white collar work, of which There are about 70 million jobs, and then the robots are up next. Good times. Andrew Yang. Like, you know, I mean, it's, you know, I mean, I. People sometimes joke, Gavin, about like, you know, am I like a doomer, am I optimistic? I mean, I'm like you, I'm an entrepreneur, so I'm optimistic by nature. But I fear. I wrote an article, I said, I call this process the fuckening. It's like the fuckening of white collar workers. And then the robots will be the next wave.
- [41:27]
Gavin Newsom
A proof point of that, not to be Madden or too negative in this subject, but the proof point of that certainly manifesting now at scale here in California, Fremont, the old factory for Tesla where he was doing about half of the global production. I mean, remember, Tesla happened here first, future happens here first. And I appreciate the future is a four letter word in the context of the anxiety out there. And I appreciate you reminding me of that because future always has its, you
- [41:55]
Andrew Yang
know, California, man, you guys love it.
- [41:58]
Gavin Newsom
But Elon, converting that factory as the future first EV factory has now pulled the Y and X model off that line, is turning it over to humanoid robotics. And the idea is to generate half a million to a million units of humanoid robots off that same assembly line that's happening. Starting to convert in real time.
- [42:19]
Andrew Yang
Yeah, yeah, they're pioneers in using robots in various ways. Elon's a very big believer and you're seeing it, man. You can go over to Fremont. It's true. I mean, California is the vanguard of a lot of what the rest of the country gets to experience a little bit later. Like your Waymo Ride a decade ago where it took, you know, eight or nine years for it to reach the highways. But it is true, man, for a lot of the country, the future is a scary thing. And the next president, whoever that is, has a very, very big task trying to get people actually positive about the future. And not just via values and feeling good about things, but about reconstituting the future for their kids. Because, you know, like the kids are coming home and sometimes they're just living in the basement.
- [43:11]
Gavin Newsom
And as you know. Well, and I appreciate your reference to everything that's going on with men and boys, you were kind enough not even to mention the 4x higher suicide rates, deaths of despair for young men and boys, and how my party in the past at least has not focused enough attention. I think that's beginning to change. A lot of leaders now are recognizing the crisis of our men and boys.
- [43:33]
Andrew Yang
But Gavin, I was told in the Democratic primary in 2020 not to talk about it. And I was like, what are you talking about? Are these not human beings and Americans? And they were like, this is a Democratic primary, Andrew. Like you don't want to be talking about these problems. I was told this is like a dog whistle. It was like a dog whistle. I'm just talking about. I'm not trying to signal anything. I'm just talking about real life issues.
- [43:56]
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- [47:01]
Andrew Yang
That's innerbalance.com I do want to talk a little bit about what I'm building with Noble Mobile because I think you'd like it. You would do.
- [47:10]
Gavin Newsom
I want to talk about that because it's a good segue and let me introduce it a little bit because I really appreciate what I told inspired you and I want to stress test whether or not I got this right that you like. Look, any parent, you've got a couple kids, I've got four kids, we've all experienced. We just cannot compete with the damn phone. I don't care how good you are as a parent, you know, with all due respect, you know the phone's just going to kick your ass. It just will. It does. And social media is just, it's sucking these kids in the vortex. You and I are old enough. We used to go online to search for knowledge. Now everything online is searching for our kids and these algorithms and they're just wiring these guys and that's, you know, that manosphere, that boyosphere, it's really a boyosphere is, you know, created this, you know, a real toxic environment, particularly for young men. I Think it goes back to that question, but it connects to two things you said earlier that I want to just highlight and point out. You mentioned that we made the mistake on social media and let's not make it on AI. You mentioned the issue of men and boys and work that Scott Galloway has been doing in that space as well. And so you, as a response to this and the overwhelming evidence of what we've done to our kids with these devices, have come up with a really novel and interesting idea. It's called Noble Mobile. Tell us about it.
- [48:33]
Andrew Yang
Yeah, and Scott Galloway is an investor, one of the original forces behind it. So check it out. I'm well known for trying to make people less broke, which I'm grateful for. But also to your point, I've been concerned about our kids and us spending too much time on what Hasan Minhaj calls our rectangle of sadness, which if you think about the last time you got really upset, it was probably off of this guy or your kids being on this guy. And so I thought, how can we help? And I was inspired by what Mark Cuban did with Cost Plus Drugs, where he bought generic drugs in bulk. And by the way, this is the sort of thing that I know you're going to love because it's trying to solve a large scale consumer problem, but doing it in the marketplace. So then I went and looked at our costs and figured, what else can you maybe Cost plus in American life? And so the average Californian's cost structure goes. Housing, healthcare, education, food, fuel, transportation, media, and then wireless. The average American is spending $83 a month on their wireless plan. The average European is spending $35 a month on their wireless plan. That Delta Gavin comes to $100 billion a year in extra spending on wireless. And of that 100 billion, 11 billion is going to Verizon shareholders as a dividend every year. 7 billion is going to AT&T shareholders the dividend every year. So you can see all this extra spend. And so the first trick I had to pull was, can I get a better deal from any of these carriers for Americans? So I went to the carriers and T Mobile said, we're into it in part because it was me, Scott Galloway and some of our friends being like, we're going to try and do this for the American people. So, number one, we cut your wireless bill, typically in half, down to $42. But the kicker in what you described is that if you use less data, we give you the money back at the end of the month. So it's an incentive to Stop doom scrolling. When you're doom scrolling, you know, you're costing yourself money. And we're kind of simple. We don't like to cost ourselves money. So the average Noble mobile user uses 17 to 20% less screen time in month two because we realize we're being chumps when we're getting sucked down a rabbit hole because that extra 30 minutes actually might cost us some money. So that is Noble Mobile. And we're trying to solve those two problems, both the money people are spending and also how much excess time we're spending on our screens.
- [51:08]
Gavin Newsom
I love it. Well done. And look, anyway, again, anyone with kids but I love you said, it's not just our kids. I mean, we model the behavior, right? It's not what we say, it's what we do. And they're watching us on our phone, complaining about them being on theirs and wondering, you know, not even recognizing.
- [51:23]
Andrew Yang
It's like, you're in my house at my dinner table, Gavin. Because it's hard for me to lecture my boys when then I'm gonna, like, grab this thing, you know, 10 seconds later. And so imagine a phone plan that could actually boost your kids allowance if they spend a little bit less time on their phones. And then you can have like a conversation about every month to see, like, where the trends are and, like, what they're doing more of. And for yourself too. Like, you can turn it into a friendly competition, which, by the way, this competition I lose every month because I'm a heavy phone user and I'm very open about it.
- [51:58]
Gavin Newsom
I love it. Well, it's. It's part of that same trend that, you know, even it may not be at the scale, the direction you want to take it. But with flip phones now, where people are just trying to go back to, you know, what's old is new again.
- [52:11]
Andrew Yang
I'm also throwing parties around the country called offline parties, where you check your phone at the door and then it feels like a 90s college party. We even had someone give a guy their phone number on a napkin, just like used to happen back in the day, because no one has their phone and they start talking and then they're like, yeah, give me a call, but we don't have your phone. But it's a forcing function because what do we all do at a party? The moment we're awkward or alone or bored, we bust our phone out. And then that kind of like, shuts the door. So at these offline parties, people have to make eye contact, have to look at each other. They kind of have to, you know, I wouldn't say have to drink. I mean, obviously don't force anyone to drink though. We give out some drink tickets. It is funny how people, I mean, it's not funny, it's terrible how people don't party as much as they used to. Like, you see it in the nightlife districts in, I'm sure, LA and San Francisco. I've actually been to the downtown districts in LA and San Francisco hosting these events. And let's just say like I felt like I was doing a service because people would come and say like, wow, like I haven't had a night like this in a while.
- [53:22]
Gavin Newsom
Andrew, you're talking to, trust me, the right guy here. Remember, I'm in the wine business, in the restaurant and bar business. So I'm living this. So you are.
- [53:30]
Andrew Yang
That's actually where you and I first met. It was like, you know, I think you were already governor, but it was in San Francisco and it was like in a, like in a bar restaurant. And you talked about how that's how you came up. And I'm sure it pains you the same way it pains me because we spent all these evenings out in our young adult years.
- [53:47]
Gavin Newsom
Well, and it's socializing, it's connecting, it's a sense of community, it's not just the drink. And I get that. You know, I mean, I love what Scott, your partner's been saying on this. He actually is going further. He wants to lower the drinking age. But because he's that sincere about this, the desperate need to go people to get off, you know, you know, get back and connect again. I mean, young boys aren't even asking girls out on dates. They're scared to death.
- [54:13]
Andrew Yang
My 13 year old Gavin said to me and my wife quite recently, I think I'm going to have an AI girlfriend. And then we were both shocked and appalled. And we asked him why and he said, I think it's going to be a lot easier than getting a human girlfriend. And he's not wrong on that side because getting a human girlfriend is not easy. And so I then said, hey, Christopher, this is what making out with your AI girlfriend is going to be like. And then I pretended it was not pleasant at all. And I was like, this is what making out with your human girlfriend's like. And I took his mom and started kissing. I was like, which is better? Which is better. You got to go for the human, even if it's harder.
- [54:49]
Gavin Newsom
Well done.
- [54:50]
Andrew Yang
But this is what our kids are experiencing where they're living in a Friction free digital world. And we all know that real relationships actually come with a level of friction. But that's the stuff of life, it's the stuff of humanity.
- [55:03]
Gavin Newsom
What do you make of it? You know, there was a headline this weekend that, this last weekend that China, quite literally the headline was around China making sure people don't have online girlfriends and how they're restricting access social media, how their version of TikTok is radically different than ours and what content you can actually access and the hours you can actually access it. You saw in China, and I'm curious your thoughts on this, where they actually find a court fined a company that fired a worker under the basis, under the auspices that that worker was replaced, quote unquote, by AI and that worker was actually awarded tens of thousands of dollars. What'd you make of that and what do you make of their approach to some of this?
- [55:52]
Andrew Yang
You know, I think it's fascinating. I read that same book you did probably about how China's run by engineers and we're run by lawyers. And so their approach to problems very, very different than ours and their advantages and disadvantages to both. You would, you would say, I can't imagine in America like trying to identify who got fired due to AI and who didn't because you know, it's going to happen in such a, a broad way. I mean, our challenge in my view, is trying to get people excited about the innovation and progress that's going on and like to feel included. And right now, you know, like, I think that's a really tough bar in terms of China's moderating its own social media and banning AI girlfriends. I mean, the fact is we all know what's going to happen in America. Our kids are going to date less, fall in love less, get married less, have fewer kids. Schools are going to close around the country, colleges are going to close. You're going to have increasing demographic challenges because you have an aging population. This is all written clear as day. China saw something similar going on. It's like, you know what? AI girlfriends at the margin are going to actually reduce the oomph inside of our kids to go out and meet each other. So let's get rid of them. You know, you can see the rationale very, very clearly. And I do think we can borrow some pages from their book in terms of actually figuring out what's happening with our young people in particular and trying to get in front of it, trying to help in real ways.
- [57:30]
Gavin Newsom
Well, let's, I want to close on a beat of optimism there's a lot of punditry, obviously, more broadly in compare and contrast, certainly in terms of the approach that China is taking in the competition. That marks, I think, a lot of the conversation we're having as well with China as it relates to superintelligence and cybersecurity and national security more broadly defined and how we have an advantage, the issues around chips and American stack, all those debates that we didn't even get into. But. But there's also a school of thought that, that you and I may be a little too pessimistic about where AI is taking us. That, you know, I was reading an Andreessen associated blog the other day, was pretty damn convincing that, you know, sure, there'll be some, you know, there'll be a moment in time, there'll certainly be categories of jobs and transitions, but we always mind those transitions and that the doomers, or at least those that are expressing so much alarm, that are feeding the anxiety that they're just boneheaded, once again, they're wrong and that we're gonna come out with augmentation jobs that we couldn't even conceive of. We're already experiencing those jobs today in some respects, maybe not at the scale and consciousness most people imagine. And a lot of the judgery, what gets repeated gets replaced. That's a good thing. We move away from that and we can find some of the things that you're looking for with your ubi. What do you say to that train of thought? And I imagine you may identify a little bit with it. What's a more positive picture you can paint here?
- [59:07]
Andrew Yang
The positive opportunity is flipping from a scarcity economy to an abundance economy, where right now GDP might be $84,000 ahead in America, which is significant. It's more even than it was when I was running for president in 2020. And AI is going to push that past $100,000 per head. So we're getting to a point where you could meaningfully situate people, where people are actually living better and more fulfilled, happier, healthier. It's just, how do you take this value that's being created and translate it to the average American family or household? And I think that's what the Andreessen blog misses. It's like, do I think they're going to be fantastic innovations? Yeah, 100%. Like, do I think that that kid down the street who right now is kind of listless and directionless, is going to be dragged into all these fantastic new opportunities? I do not. You know, who else doesn't Think so the kid himself or their parents. So like that's the burden. I think the Andresen school has to try and figure out how to bridge that gap. But if we're ending on an optimistic note, the top line growth will be there, the opportunities will be there for us to really address poverty and a lot of other large scale problems in a way that have not been possible before. A mindset of scarcity made sense in this country when our, I mean, not mine because I mean, actually Gavin, I don't know if you know this, my parents met as immigrant students at UC Berkeley in the 60s. My brother was named after the Lawrence hall of Science and was born in San Francisco. So there's a lot of California in my DNA. But when Americans first showed up to these shores, if they didn't grow or hunt their food, they died. So there was like this mindset of scarcity that kind of made sense, like if you don't work, you die. Now fast forward AI is about to switch us to a zone where we're going to have trillion dollar firms and trillionaires and there's going to be more than enough to go around, especially when the robots come where if we can get our acts together, we can actually solve societal problems in a way that was not possible at any other point in human history. So that's the hope. That's a very California message, I dare say, because you guys have been walking this walk before much of the rest of the country.
- [61:30]
Gavin Newsom
No, and I appreciate it. I mean the promise is not there. It's not just peril as it relates to what could happen in the healthcare space in particular. And we're already seen some real progress promoted earlier screenings and detections and things as complicated as pancreatic cancer and the like. And you know, the sort of super MRI and the opportunities in drug development. Of course the flip side of drug development biology is the downside of that in terms of the security risks. But that abundance mindset is I think also part of this broader conversation. But your point is, I think, spot on and I think it's a good place to land because I think it is the bridge between the two. It's about growth and inclusion. It cannot be. And we will have, as you suggested, you said it three times, we're going to have the first trillionaires this year. And maybe I think it's plural. It's not just singular. I mean certainly Elon will be on that list after SpaceX XAI slash Starlink goes public. And right behind him is what's going to happen. Will be interesting to see what happens with Sam's shop and OpenAI and their IPO. In just a matter of weeks, months here, all of this is going to take shape and anthropic. And that abundance is going to create more anxiety and that concentration of wealth is going to create more, I think, insecurity for even those that are the wealth creators themselves. And so this notion of sharing that abundance and having a society where everybody sees themselves as participating and fully, you know, fully, as you suggest, considered they see themselves in the future is foundational.
- [63:09]
Andrew Yang
Yeah, I'm pro innovation and pro success. I don't begrudge anyone their wealth, like as long as their neighbors aren't falling into the abyss, you know, at scale. And I mean like that, that's. And the thing I say to some of my very wealthy friends and they non agree is that everyone is less happy in a vastly unequal society. You know, like no one wants to have bulletproof cars and private security for their kids and all this stuff. Like it's miserable. And so the enlightened self interest thing to do is like, look, I can be successful and let's solve some problems. So that's my school of thought. Since you probably know some of these people, you probably naturally fall someplace similar. And that to me is something that even many of them will get behind. The caricature of some of these people is like they need every last dollar. It's like, look, sure, they probably like their money and they don't necessarily want to port it over to the government in various ways because they might not have the highest confidence. But I think many of them can be drawn into a meaningful conversation about keeping society whole.
- [64:23]
Gavin Newsom
I agree. And that's where I think we're missing that national leadership right now. And that opportunity presents itself particularly in light of these IPOs. The situational moment demands of that. And look, if we quoted Voltaire, let's quote Aristotle, and he said it as well, or better than we ever could, you can't live a good life. You can't live a good life in an unjust society. And that kind of wealth disparity, that kind of imbalance between the rich and the poor is the oldest, as Plutarch said, and most fatal ailment of all republics. So this society is just simply going to fray. And so I think this lightened self interest, there's a real opportunity in shot to bridge that. So I appreciate that and thank you for giving me a shot of adrenaline reconnecting with you, talking in more entrepreneurial terms about the future and how we can accelerate it, but steer it with the kind of guardrails and values that all of us deserve.
- [65:22]
Andrew Yang
Thanks, Gavin. Thanks for having me on.
- [65:29]
Jodi Sweetney
This is Sophia Donner from OK Storytime this Summer. Find your next obsession on Prime Video. And listen, we're not saying you need another obsession, but there could be a lot worse ones. Steamy romance, addictive love stories, and the book to screen favorites you've already read twice, so why not watch them a third time off campus? L the Love Hypothesis and more Slow Burns Second Chances chemistry you can feel through the screen and it makes you wish you were actually in that movie. We've got binge worthy series can't miss movies perfect for when you're ignoring your own problems or procrastinating as one does. Your next obsession is waiting. Watch only on Prime. Okay, Real Talk I am very much a different pair for every mood kind of girl. And that's exactly why I love Diff Iowa wear. Like some days I want something sleek and put together and other days I want to throw on a bold pair and just feel like that girl, you know? Diff makes stylish sunglasses and prescription frames and the range is so good. They get that you're not just one vibe, you're like 12 vibes and depending on the day and the playlist and honestly the weather. And here's the part that actually makes you feel good about it. Every Diff purchase gives back. So you look amazing and you're doing something meaningful. That's the combo right there. So go check them out. It's diff eyewear.com define your style. Seriously, go look right now because you will not leave empty handed. I'm just warning you. That's diff eyewear.com again. Diff eyewear.com this is Jodi Sweetie and
- [67:03]
Andrea Barber
this is Andrea Barber from How Rude Tanneritos Chewy has over a hundred thousand products. Food, treats, toys, beds and everything ships fast. And it's not just for dogs, cats, birds, fish, reptiles. I mean they got everybody covered. Plus prescriptions, pet insurance and telehealth. Vet visits and vet clinics are rolling out now, which I love. So many great things. And if your pet doesn't love something, return it within a year. For life with pets, the answer is chewy. Save $20 on your first order with free shipping at chupanions.chewy.com how rude.
- [67:40]
Oestra Inner Balance Advertiser
If you're feeling off fatigue, mood changes, skin shifts, yet your labs say everything's normal. You're not alone. Meet Oestra from Inner balance. The first all in one prescription Strength Bioidentical Hormone cream that's natural and effective and only takes one drop 10 seconds a day. Oester replaces five to six products women typically use to treat symptoms and is third party tested to ensure the highest quality. Visit innerbalance.com today to start feeling like yourself again. That's innerbalance.com this is an I Heart podcast.
- [68:14]
Andrew Yang
Guaranteed human.