Guest (3:03)

The weather is also slightly better, I think. It's not as rainy, sort of cold, but you also have the same. You also don't have as many castles and things like that. It's not very sort of fort heavy. It's actually quite. And actually not very conflict heavy as well.

Historian (3:17)

But you do have fantastic art and monumental architecture which reflects the power of the aristocracy at this time. So I'd say, yeah, power aristocracy, same. But climate, probably the bit where you'd.

Guest (3:28)

Be like, spicer, that's a bit better.

Host (3:31)

Better climate, not as many castles. So swings and roundabouts. Well, that's interesting. So how would you charact that difference in thinking between medieval Muslims and Christians?

Historian (3:40)

You know, one thing that's interesting about especially Islam in Mali is that the different sects and different ways in which people can relate to it. Either it can be sort of quite martial, depending on the character not only of the monarch, but also of the society, or it can take a completely different character. So actually, in Mali, for instance, it's like Musa and the elite are officially Muslim, but they don't launch any wars in the name of it, for example. And they think of it as a religion of peace, trade and prosperity. And that's how they market it, and that's how they relate to it. And actually, it's something that Musa finds it hard to actually get a lot of his population on board with. So it's not something that actually he, you know, imposes. And then I think also, especially in, you know, an African context, that it blends with the traditional beliefs and practices of the people as well. And I think also Mali, I mean, Musa as well, although being officially Muslim, because a lot of the Mandinga people, just the ethnic group of the Mali Empire, are loyal to their traditional practices and their traditional religion and want to maintain that either in whole or in part, and means that Musa, as well as doing these Muslim religious practices, also has to take part in the traditional ones as well, and also is always trying to square that culture with Islam. So I think there's an aspect where it blends with the traditional culture. It's a little bit more syncretic. It's not as potent and especially culturally potent as it is in a lot of Western Europe at the time as well. So I think Those are the ways in which it differs and I think is also particular to Musa himself. And Mali at this time.

Host (5:11)

Fascinating. Any contact at all between West Africa and Europe at this time?

Guest (5:16)

Yeah, indirect contact.

Historian (5:17)

I mean, so the West Africans obviously engage in a lot of trade and actually Mali at this time is one of the biggest, if not the biggest gold exporter and you know, gold producer in the world at the time. So there's actually a minor Mali where 50% of the world's gold is coming from. And that gold is taken by traders, either indigenous Saharan traders or sometimes the West African traders cross the Sahara to North Africa and they're taken from traders who come from the. Into North Africa back to the Mediterranean and actually makes its way up to Western Europe. So actually Malian gold is being used in things like the paintings of medieval Western European royalty and stuff like that. So there's indirect contact, but direct contact comes sort of in the next century. The next century or two is when we actually have that. Yeah. A more direct contact, but would have been aware of each other.

Host (6:03)

What is it about this particular story about Mansa Musa and his pilgrimage from Mali to Mecca and Dinah that really gets you going?

Historian (6:11)

Well, I think it's just the scale of it. I mean, it's definitely, I would say the biggest and most epic pilgrimage to Mecca. But probably, I mean, you know, we could. Something we could discuss. But actually pilgrimages in the world, I mean, it's tens of thousands of people that he takes across from Mali to West Africa, all the way to Mecca and brings also with him tens of millions of pounds worth of gold. And he's spending the money, he's crashing economies and he's, you know, building mosques and he's transforming areas of the desert into, you know, swimming pools and his own personal playgrounds. So he is just, it's a journey on a scale that, you know, has not seen before. And it, you know, mix, it's so big and spectacular mix and world famous. So I'm really excited to be telling that story and sharing some of the power, talking about the power of Mali and of Mansa Musa in particular.

Host (6:57)

Getting a little bit of an inferiority complex here because at the time you're talking about, we've got Edward II kind of running around sort of this cold rainy island at the end of the world, his nobles and getting a red hot poker waved dangerously near his rectum. And there we have, we have Mansa Musa kind of transforming entire continents geographically, politically and economically. Let's get to know you. I know you, but Maybe our listeners know less about you. Let's get to know you a little bit with some quick fire questions, if you don't mind. What's your favourite moment in history? Could be anything.

Historian (7:28)

Well, one of my favourite moments, actually is the time that an East African. So specifically Swahili, this is in, like, the early 15th century. A Swahili diplomatic fleet essentially sails from what's now Kenya and basically to China. And that's a moment which I think is really interesting because I think it demonstrates the technological capability, the reach and the power of medieval African societies. And they go there and they bring gifts, including live animals, like, you know, giraffes and all this sort of thing. And the Chinese are actually absolutely floored by how exotic these animals are. So it establishes strong diplomatic contact between these nations, which are completely, you know, completely different and so far away. And more importantly, what it demonstrates to me is that Africans were in China even before Europeans were in. Were in Africa.

Guest (8:16)

Well, it sort of flips the world history on its head as well.

Historian (8:19)

So I quite like that, like an.

Host (8:21)

Epic journey as well. If you could have dinner with anyone.

Guest (8:25)

Oh, Anya from history.

Host (8:26)

Okay, you don't have to say me. Who would it be?

Guest (8:29)

Well, as well as my history, I also actually love my literature as well.

Historian (8:34)

And so historical figure that I know a lot about and would love to meet is Alessandre Dumas, one of my favorite authors and also author of Three Musketeers, Count of Monte Cristo. He was actually a quarter African, so his father was half African, was a general in Napoleon's army. But Alexandre Dumas was absolutely fascinating, as well as being a great storyteller, was apparently man who has just so much joie de vivre. Like, he just lived large, did a ton of writing. He loved food, he loved partying, apparently had like, up to 40 mistresses as well, and apparently just loved to talk. Like, someone described his tongue, I think, as a windmill, just like, kept going. So he had a lot of stories, was a great storyteller, not only in.

Guest (9:09)

Writing, but also, you know, in person.

Historian (9:10)

And I think it would just be.

Guest (9:12)

So entertaining to be opposite him.

Host (9:13)

Is there any overlap between Dumas Cande, Monte Cristo and Mansa Musa?

Guest (9:18)

There's no direct overlap, but actually some of the stories do have similar overtones, actually.

Historian (9:23)

So, I mean, Duma is hugely influenced by the Arabian Nights, incidentally, which a lot of people compare Mansa Musa to. You know, these stories of almost mythical wealth and splendor and hidden treasure and especially spectacular wealth is something that infuses those stories of the Arabian Nights. And I mean, another interesting link is that actually at the time the Arabian Nights are sort of being written and compiled as we know them, that's actually around the time Musa is living. That's 14th century. And one of the places you go to, which is Cairo under the Mamluks, it's actually in Mamluk, Egypt and during the Mamnik period that actually some of these stories are being written.

Guest (9:56)

So for example, the Count of Monte.

Historian (9:58)

Cristo, he's a man basically who's imprisoned wrongly. He basically escapes the prison, finds treasure, and he uses the wealth to build himself up as this Byronic count. And he uses the money and the wealth and his position to basically wreak revenge on his enemy. So I think that use and you know, sort of with Musa in order to achieve certain ends, you know, using these kind of fantastic resources at your disposal. Those are definitely the similarities between them. And actually not minding. Cause this is something that is part of Musa's character is that he doesn't mind spending whatever he has at disposal if it comes to achieving certain ends. And actually there's a similarity between that and Edmond Dante's in the count.

Host (10:39)

So it's cash rules everything around me, as the Wu Tang Clan once said. So thank you very much for that, Luke. I'm really looking forward to hearing this whole story. Don't forget, listeners, after every one of Luke's episodes, I'll be back to ask Luke plenty of questions and dive even deeper into the story. Over on this is History. Plus, if you want to get a free trial, go to thisishistorypod.com or go to Apple Podcasts and click Try Free. I will see you all next week.