Inside the Housing Crisis - In Conversation with Housing Campaigner Kwajo Tweneboa

Summary

Podcast Summary

Overview

Podcast: This is Housing
Episode: Inside the Housing Crisis - In Conversation with Housing Campaigner Kwajo Tweneboa
Date: July 21, 2026
Host: Richard Mahal & Manjinder Atwell (Duncan Lewis Housing Team)
Special Guest: Kwajo Tweneboa – Housing activist and campaigner

This episode delves into the realities and failings of the UK housing system, both in social housing and the private rented sector, through the personal and advocacy work of Kwajo Tweneboa. Kwajo shares his journey from lived experience of homelessness and poor housing to national campaigning, outlines systemic issues in housing provision, exposes the culture within local authorities, discusses the politicisation and weaponisation of housing, and shares his vision for systemic change.

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1. Kwajo's Personal Story and Path to Activism

[00:03 – 04:10]

• Early Experiences:

  • Twice homeless as a child; recalls sleeping on top of furniture in a storage unit after not receiving assistance the first time [01:51].
  • Second homelessness during A-levels; choice between relocating far from home or accepting temporary accommodation in a converted car garage in South London.
  • "We were given the choice [to] move to Luton ... or to accept a temporary accommodation in South London ... essentially a converted car garage." – Kwajo [02:11]

• Impact:

  • Lived through the same year as Grenfell Tower—realized the scale of the crisis.
  • Permanent social housing eventually obtained, but was in a state of severe disrepair: "cockroaches, mice, damp mould, a kitchen which was nearly 100 years old, a bathroom which wasn't fit for use" [03:29].
  • Father, in declining health with cancer, died after infection exacerbated by the conditions.
  • Turned to social media to highlight his family’s plight, leading to national media attention and further activism.

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2. Systemic Issues in Housing and Local Authority Culture

[04:10 – 18:40]

• Not Isolated Cases:

  • Grenfell exposed similar experiences nationwide.
  • "It is really, really debilitating. It's not just about bricks and mortar, it's about the future of people's lives ultimately." — Kwajo [05:44]

• Examples of Extreme Poor Housing:

  • Mother and son in Lambeth shared a room with no running water, infested with mice, forced to urinate in bottles. The school let the boy shower on-site; he eventually moved to decent housing and is now a signed footballer [06:24–09:03].
  • Man with stage 4 brain tumor offered only a 15th-floor flat with unreliable lifts—"all he wants is somewhere that gives him a sense of dignity whilst fighting the biggest battle of his life, and yet he's being denied of that" [09:42].

• Local Authority Culture:

  • "The hardest sort of group of people to sort of work with within the housing space … is local authorities. There is a wholly bottom culture ... they are completely devoid of [decency and compassion] at the moment." — Kwajo [11:25]
  • Acknowledges funding cuts but sees "organisational incompetence," poor communication, and top-down negative culture as key issues [16:40].
  • Describes a "stigma towards social housing" and a "firefighting manifestation of a crisis which should have never, ever existed"—blames underfunding and policies dating back to the 1980s and Thatcher era [13:22, 15:06].

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3. Stigma, Politicisation, and Weaponisation of the Housing Crisis

[18:40 – 35:23]

• Stigma and Rhetoric:

  • Media and certain politicians fuel divisiveness, focusing on "immigrants and asylum seekers taking homes," which is factually untrue; 89% of social housing goes to UK nationals [19:21].
  • Benefit Street and poverty-porn-style media blamed for furthering stigma [16:40].

• Race and Class:

  • Conversation often defaults to race, but class is crucial—"there's a huge issue with class."
  • Media narratives sensationalise and mislead; people's real stories (like an FGM survivor facing deportation) are lost in statistics [23:09].

• Political Use of Housing Crisis:

  • Politicians "weaponize" the crisis to further agendas and avoid genuine policy solutions:
    • "It's what they're taking from us ... never about what they are contributing." — Kwajo [30:10]
    • Parties refuse to invest in social housing, opting for divisive headlines [28:04, 30:10].
    • "We're seeing from some parties ... they aren't willing to admit there is a massive supply side issue" [30:10].

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4. Legal and Bureaucratic Obstacles to Housing Justice

[37:12 – 53:18]

• Systemic Failures Identified by Legal Professionals:
  • Extremely hard for solicitors to get local authorities to fulfil statutory duties—at every stage, authorities delay or obstruct [39:21–41:54].
  • Massive inefficiency and financial waste: "London we're spending 5.5 million a day on temporary accommodation" [41:54]; money that could be invested in sustainable solutions.
  • Local authorities often more focused on winning legal battles, saving face, or ticking boxes than solving human problems [45:07–50:55].
  • Example: A trans asylum seeker placed in all-male accommodation, with authorities dismissing risk as inevitable — "no matter where we put her, she'd be abused" [47:25].
  • Local authority staff "case hardened" and bureaucratic, losing sight of human impact [53:18].

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5. The Private Rented Sector and Legislative Gaps

[53:55 – 58:30]

• Private Sector Often Worse:
  • Poor conditions match or exceed social housing, yet tenants pay "absolutely ridiculous prices"—over 50% of income for inadequate homes [53:58].
  • Laws exist on paper but are unenforced; accountability is lacking and profit is prioritized over rights [53:58–56:49].
  • Government promises "affordable housing" but fails to define or deliver—"the government promising us diamonds but throwing us crumbs." — Kwajo [57:22]

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6. Policy, Politics, and Vision for Reform

[58:30 – 66:54]

• Leadership and Policy:

  • Disappointed with political lip service, calls for a Housing Secretary with lived experience and genuine empathy [58:33–61:19].
  • Labour and previous governments have "massively underwhelmed" on delivery [61:19].

• If Kwajo Were Housing Secretary:

  1. National strategy to use empty homes (over a million empty in England) [62:14].
  2. Mass council house building program to address supply and affordability [62:27].
  3. Tackle affordability crisis in private rents [62:32].
  4. Set a goal to eradicate child homelessness ("If there is any motivation for us, the country, it should be that" [65:37]).
  • Social housing must be seen as an opportunity for all, not just a "poor person's game" [63:21].

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7. Kwajo's Motivation and Principles

[66:54 – 74:22]

• Personal Drivers:

  • His late father’s experience and values: "I don't think there is any job he would rather me have right now than what I'm doing now" [67:23].
  • The legacy of Grenfell.
  • Wanting to inspire others: "If I can do it, a young boy ... then I want everyone to believe that they can do exactly the same" [68:49].

• Rejection of MBE:

  • Turned down the honour: "If instead of an MBE, they turned around and said ... we are going to deliver on this issue once and for all ... I would have walked away happily with that" [70:34–72:33].
  • Values real change and accountability over personal recognition.

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8. Closing Message and Call to Action

[74:22 – 76:08]

• Urgency:
  • "This is the biggest crisis that we are facing as a country and it's a very, very complex one."
  • "We cannot build a home from the roof down. You have to build it from its foundations up. And until we get that right, there are always going to be lessons that we need to learn." [75:16]
  • Calls for national unity and demanding accountability: "We as a country have to move forward together and it starts by us all working together and being on the same page and ultimately that's how we build upon our foundations." [75:53]

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Notable Quotes (with Timestamps)

• On Systemic Issues:

  • "It's not just about bricks and mortar, it's about the future of people's lives ultimately." — Kwajo [05:44]

• On Local Authority Culture:

  • "There is a wholly bottom culture ... completely devoid of [decency and compassion] at the moment." — Kwajo [11:25]

• On Policy and Political Lip Service:

  • "The government promising us diamonds but throwing us crumbs instead." — Kwajo [57:22]

• On Solutions:

  • "If there is any motivation for us, the country, it should be that I would set a goal to eradicate ... child homelessness." — Kwajo [65:37]

• On Motivation:

  • "For all that we have been through, for all that he [my dad] had been through and experienced, he wouldn't want that for another family. So every day that I wake up, I realize, remember everything that I've been through with him." — Kwajo [67:23]

• On Awards and Recognition:

  • "I'm not here to receive awards or celebrate something that hasn't been dealt with. I'm here because I genuinely understand what the issues are and want to improve people's lives." — Kwajo [72:25]

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Key Takeaways

• Crisis is Deep, Structural, and Cultural:
  Both social housing and the private sector are failing large numbers of people, and this is rooted in decades of policy neglect, stigma, and misaligned priorities about what housing is for.

• Combatting Stigma:
  Stigma against social tenants and immigrants is actively used to distract from systemic failures; the narrative needs to fundamentally shift.

• Local Authority Dysfunction:
  Funding shortfalls, procedural inefficiencies and deeply ingrained negative cultures degrade the quality of service and dignity offered to those in need.

• Legal Friction:
  Even with legal recourse, persistent obstruction and inefficiency puts tenants at risk and wastes public resources.

• Call for Concrete, Ambitious Action:
  Kwajo calls for real, practical, targeted policies: unlocking empty homes, mass social housebuilding, tackling affordability, and ending child homelessness.

• People First:
  Change must center lived experience, dignity, compassion, and the voices of those directly impacted.

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Suggested Listening Timestamps

• Kwajo’s personal story: [01:18–04:10]
• Systemic housing issues explained: [04:55–06:24]
• Lambeth mother and son case: [06:24–09:03]
• Man with stage 4 brain tumour case: [09:04–10:49]
• On local authority culture and funding: [11:25–16:40]
• Stigma, race, and media narrative: [18:40–23:09]
• FGM survivor’s asylum story: [23:09–26:27]
• Weaponisation of housing crisis: [28:04–30:10]
• If Kwajo were Housing Secretary: [62:14–66:54]
• On turning down the MBE: [70:27–72:33]
• Kwajo's closing thoughts: [74:22–76:08]

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This episode is an essential listen for anyone wanting to understand the realities of the UK housing crisis—from frontline experiences to policy and political failures, and most importantly, the solutions that could make true change possible.

Transcript

[A]

Hello, everyone, and welcome to season two of the this Is Housing podcast. I'm Richard Mahal, a solicitor in the Housing department at Duncan Lewis, and I'm joined by Manjinder Atwell, director and solicitor in the housing team. And I'm especially delighted to be joined today by our special guest, Kwajo Buenbower. Kwajo, for those of you don't know, is One of the UK's leading housing activists and campaigners, widely recognised for his work in exposing housing conditions, championing tenants rights and ensuring that the voices of residents are heard at both a local and a national level. Through his campaigning, media appearances and engagement with policymakers, Kwajo has played a significant role in bringing housing issues into the public spotlight and driving important conversations about accountability and reform. Kwajo, thank you very much for joining us today. We look forward to hearing about your experiences and your work advocating for tenants and your views on some of the biggest issues currently facing the housing sector. Kwajo, I'm sure some of our listeners will be familiar with you and your work, your background, but for those of our listeners who don't know you, could you just tell us a little bit about your background, your story and how you came to be doing the work

[B]

that you're doing today. It started off new lived experience. So as a child, me and my family, me and my sisters in particular, experienced homelessness twice as kids with my dad. And it had a huge impact on our childhood and upbringing. I remember taking days off to school to sit in our council homelessness department, essentially, and watch our dad go in there, sort of fighting to be listened to, heard and understood and essentially to be housed. And it was a really, really sort of long. I remember the first time we were made homeless, we weren't provided assistance and actually was having to sleep on top of furniture, sneaking at night to sleep on top of our furniture in a storage unit. And the second time was a few years later. It was whilst I was studying for my A levels. My younger sister was studying for her GCSEs. And that was a really, really difficult time too, because it was coming up to exam season and we were given the choice either move to Luton or, bearing in mind if you had asked me at that time where Luton was on the UK map, I wouldn't have been able to point it out. I had, again, born and raised in London, that's all I really knew. Or to accept a temporary accommodation in South London, which was essentially a converted car garage. Now, obviously, our school, myself, my sisters, my dad didn't want to leave. We wanted to be here, where we grew up, raised and focused on our sort of studies and education, our exams. So we made that choice and we took that accommodation and it was completely and wholly unfit for anyone to be living in. I remember the year that we were in there because it was the same year Grenville happened. And I remember waking up ready for sixth form and seeing a burning tower block and people had died at that point in time. And I remember thinking at the time, it's not just me, it's not just my family. There's so many out there who are simply not being heard, simply not being cared for. And then that progressed and we were finally offered permanent social housing in South London. So it sounded great at the time and we accepted it, we took it, but it was falling to bits. It was an old estate, I think it was built in around the 70s and we had cockroaches, mice, damp mould, a kitchen which was nearly 100 years old, a bathroom which wasn't fit for use, and we were asking, begging for work to be carried out in order for repairs to be completed, which were never listened to. And my dad developed cancer. No one in our family ever went into pee over the space of a year, declined. It turned in from stage one to stage four, living in cockroaches, living around cockroaches, mice being treated in those conditions by district nurses. And it was wholly embarrassing for us as his children. He passed away shortly after an infection which spread through his brain. So I decided to turn to social media. The national news then picked up and ever since then, people around the country have reached out to me and asked me to go into their homes to expose the conditions that they're living in.

[A]

When you were going through these personal housing issues, it was around the same time as the Grenfell Tower tragedy occurred. I think you suggested that that was really eye opening for you, that your experience was juxtaposed with what was going on with Grenville Tower and you realized that your experience wasn't necessarily unique. It was an experience that, that lots of other people are having as well. In your campaigning work, do you think now the more you've done, the more you've seen, do you think that we have a systematic problem with poor housing conditions now in this country, both in relation to social housing and the private rented sector?

[B]

I wasn't an isolated case watching Grenville happen, listening to the way in which members of the community were speaking about being treated prior to Grenfell, the way in which they were gaslit. The way in which they were treated as second class citizens very much aligned with what me and my family were going through. So I knew from that point that it wasn't a nice place to place. And I mean, when I started campaigning, I was very much gaslit in the beginning. Individuals working for organizations, especially within the housing area space, who were saying that it's unfortunate, but there are isolated incidents. And I knew that wasn't the case. And that's why I decided to travel around the country in different parts of the country, going to people's homes to prove that it was an isolated incident. And I've never stopped ever since. I am under the belief, and wholly under the belief that this is the biggest issue that the country is facing around housing at the moment, because it is our foundations, everyone, whether you're homeless or whether you live in a mansion, it affects all other areas of our lives, whether it's mental health, physical health, education, opportunities to get employment, people having to quit their jobs because they're being moved to different parts of the country because they find themselves homeless. It is really, really debilitating. It's not just about bricks and mortar, it's about the future of people's lives ultimately. And I've seen in many cases the way in which lives are destroyed as a result of this.

[C]

You mentioned you've seen a lot of people in crazy situations. Can you give us an example for what you've seen that's really stood out for you?

[B]

Yeah, I mean, there are two examples, one of which I'm dealing with now, one of which I dealt with last year. One example was a mum and son who was in temporary accommodation and it was actually a member of staff that reached out from the little boy's school and that's how I was introduced to him and his mum. And I visited a temporary accommodation which was in Lambeth and it was owned by the local authority, but it was almost, it seemed like HMO set up. They had a room and that was it. So he was in year seven at the time, I believe, and he was sharing a bed with his mum. Now, in this room or in this accommodation, let's say everyone else was sort of men with various different needs, very vulnerable individuals living there. He was the only child in this block or in this house, and they were sharing a room on the very, very top floor. They had a mouse infestation. Their belongings were still in boxes and bags when I got to the accommodation. Clothes and suitcases and I met mum and I went around the Accommodation to look. And she was in tears, explaining to me what she and her son had been put through up until that point. And she was at her wits end and she was working and she was in employment and she was working hard, really, really hard, but returning back to that accommodation. Now, what was interesting about that situation was they did have a sink in their room and she went to turn the sink on and there was no running water. So essentially that's why I first came to the property. And earlier, what happened just before that was the school was informed that water had been running because staff members from the council had been out to fix it. Obviously I went there and realised that wasn't the case and it wasn't working. And not only that, she then took me to the bathroom and there was no water coming out of the taps. There was no water to fill in the toilet either, meaning they were having to defecate and urinate in bin bags and bottles and had beef for months. The school opened up their showers for him to come in before school in order to shower because they knew of the situation at and it was affecting his behavior in school and his education too. The bar was completely broken too. There was a whole host of disrepair issues in there. Yet they had been gaslit. The school had been gaslit, believing that it had been fixed. And I remember walking into that room and just by the door, he had a timetable up on the wall and he wanted to become a professional footballer. That was his goal. So he would get up before school, he would do his sit ups, he would do his workout and whatnot. That was his motivation, that was his goal. And I managed to highlight that they were moved eventually. He got his own bedroom, which he couldn't believe. And I recently found out that he recently got signed to Brighton.

[C]

No way.

[B]

He's playing now for him. And it just goes to show how much of an impact like having a decent, stable place really does have, especially on children not suffering at the moment. And at the moment I'm dealing with the case of a man with stage four infection, incurable brain tumor. He was homeless. I thought his case had been taken up and dealt with after the council turned around and said that they don't have a duty to him. So he was sleeping in a car, they overturned that and he was placed on HMO of recent. He was told that they've got an accommodation offer. They've got one offer. If he doesn't take it, he's making himself potentially homeless. It's a room on the 15th floor of the Tower block in Thurrock, and I immediately had concerns and questions about it, especially if the lifts don't work, whether or not, in light of Grenfell, they've carried out any form of peak assessment, occupational therapy, anything like that, to me, automatically it was wholly unsuitable, because if the lift breaks, which I know happens regularly in tower blocks in particular, and sometimes takes months or years, if they have to import parts from abroad, that means he has to climb 15 floors basically to leave and get into the property. And if he needs to go out shopping, he's going to have to go doing all of that. Not only that, his carers come in to visit him will have to do exactly the same. Now, if someone with a stage 4 incurable brain tumor is being treated like that by local authorities and no consideration really is being shown to the situation he's in and his medical needs, all he wants is somewhere that gives him a sense of dignity whilst fighting the biggest battle of his life, and yet he's being denied of that. It's an absolute horrific case. But those two will forever stay with me, I think.

[C]

Well, I know housing have a roof over your head is the most fundamental basic need, and the fact that local authorities are making children live in really rubbish conditions, knowing it will have a major impact and someone who's got cancer, I think it's absolutely ridiculous. You know, I think these decisions, they should be challenged every single time. And do you find that local authorities are quite amenable with challenges, or do they keep fighting you, or how have they?

[B]

I can, with a lot of evidence, say the hardest sort of group of people to sort of work with within the housing space in terms of getting justice for residents. Really going through that approach me all the time is local authorities. Now, there is a holy bottom culture, I would say, baked deep within local authorities, not just one in particular, across the board, where it almost seems they're doing everything to work against the needs of those that are supposed to be helping instead of actually helping them. And it's a rare. That, for me, is the dark side of my work that people don't necessarily see. That's not to say there aren't people that work within local authorities and homelessness departments with the best intention, but often it comes from direction, from the very top. And I would be the first to come out and defend local authorities and the lack of funding they have received to tackle this issue. But one thing I'm very clear about is it costs absolutely nothing, nothing to treat tenants that are approaching, whether homeless or living in poor conditions under you with decency, human respect and compassion. Yet local authorities time and time again show me and others within the sector that they are completely devoid of that at the moment. And ultimately it means tenants are left to suffer, regardless of their medical need, regardless of their situation, whether it's domestic violence, whether it's they've got kids, whether it's they're fleeing other sorts of or other forms of situations that they're dealing with in their day to day lives, they are unable to show and treat them how they would like to be treated. And that's something that we treat kids or teach kids in nursery is treat people how you would like to be treated. And for some reason it doesn't happen within the housing sector and under local authority. And I am determined to push that because that for me there is no argument with that. In terms of cost, it costs absolutely nothing to have a good culture and treat people with respect and compassion.

[C]

Why do you think that is?

[B]

Look, I've been doing this for five or six years. This has been going on far longer than I been alive. I am now 27. I started this shortly after I turned 21. I think it was so young. Yeah, but I know this is so deep rooted within local authorities, within the housing sector. It could be directly traced Back to the 1980s Government of Margaret Thatcher, the selling off of council homes, the massive increase in sort of housing benefit. Housing being seen as a commodity or an opportunity to create wealth for individuals, rather than fundamentally viewing it as what it is, that what it should be. And that's a human right for everyone and a foundation that we all need. And I think that's become massively forgotten, as well as the underfunding of local authorities, councils and housing associations in particular, and the stigma towards social housing in general, rather than seeing it as sort of, sort of safety net, an opportunity for people to save, to then go on and create a life for themselves. It's turned into this sort of firefighting manifestation of a crisis which should have never, ever existed. And you look towards other countries like Singapore or Vienna for example, where you've got a mix of people living in social housing, different occupations, different backgrounds, all living amongst each other and they genuinely value and understand what social housing is at the heart of it. That at the moment has been completely forgotten and underfunded and, and even now I would argue it is still looked down upon, but everyone would agree it's the only form of genuinely affordable housing that we have in this country. And there's so many people, especially in the private rental sector that don't have access to it, that I believe should have access to it, that should feel the benefit for it. And what we're seeing instead is costs massively spiral out of control and unfortunately consecutive governments sitting back and allowing it to happen. This isn't one sided political system. It's parties across Westminster that have allowed this to happen and manifest itself. And we're at a point now where we're fighting amongst each other rather than demanding that they do something about it and they be bold in tackling it once and for all.

[A]

I think Manjun already touched on this. She said, why you think we've reached this point where the culture within local authorities, when it comes to dealing with homelessness, I think

[B]

our experiences, our combined

[A]

experiences, are that local authorities

[C]

can be

[A]

really bad when it comes to doing the basics like interacting in a humane way with people who are approaching them for assistance. And it's no doubt funding cuts. You know, local authorities have been massively hit by austerity since 2010. They've got less money to work with and an increasing demands on their resources. But there is something that I'm not sure whether simply a lack of funding explains the reason for the culture, which you said, and I'm fascinated by why, how that culture has grown up and developed and what can actually be really done to reform that.

[B]

Just sheer, unfortunately, organisational incompetence when it comes to dealing with this issue, when it comes to actually working with tenants, actually going through it. There are a whole host of things that I've seen in my time of work dealing with cases where I think this is just clear organizational incompetence, whether it is just down to communication and poor communication, whether it's escalating cases, whether it's just simply listening to understand rather than respond with, well, our policy says X, Y and Z. Well, I'm afraid your policy is wrong and needs to be changed because you would not like to treat the way that you are going forward and treating residents. And not only that. And again, this isn't everyone that works in local authorities. I know there are people that genuinely care and would agree with what I'm saying. Often it comes from the top and decision makers and they're not the ones having to go through it, they're the going homes. They're comfortable homes. At the end of the day, it's a 9 to 5 to them. They aren't having to deal and experience and go through homelessness or living in poor conditions. But also, I think there's a culture that we are local authorities, we are housing associations. And I've dealt with this myself. I took on Europe's largest housing association, my landlord, Clarion Housing Association. When I first started, there was this belief that we are body, we are an organization. You are a tenant, and you are coming and asking us for help. We say jump. We expect you to ask how high? And if you don't, then there's a problem. I think that really underpins the issue with stigma. I've been told by people that work in the sector how they've listened to colleagues speak so horrifically and disgracefully about those living in social housing. And we had TV shows not long ago, like Benefit street, which to me was essentially poverty porn. Looking at people living in. From poorer backgrounds living in social housing as a means of entertainment over dinner, rather than looking at them and thinking there are so many people living in this country suffering now. And that's a huge part of the stigma issue, I think.

[A]

I mean, we see this increasingly, the kind of rhetoric that is being used in relation to immigration, things like that. That's obviously at the moment a hot political topic that some. That some parties want to spend a lot of time talking about. And you see, although we don't have a great deal of social housing, a lot of social housing is, you know, will be. You'll have ethnic minority groups that will perhaps disproportionately take up social housing because they're in a. They're in a lower socioeconomic group. And do you think that there is a racial component to some of this stuff or anything like that as well?

[B]

Sort of. The way people even talk about Grenville and were talking about Grenville in the days afterwards, forget that there were white British families also living in that tower block that unfortunately died too. But when you look at the majority, always often comes back to race. But more importantly, I think there's a huge issue with class. 2024, 2025, I believe it was. 89% of social housing went to UK nationals and people screaming and shouting about what about the 11% they're going to those asylum seekers coming over our phones. They're not. Because if you're an asylum applicant, you have no recourse to public funds. But often people don't know what they're hearing.

[C]

It's social media.

[B]

Well, it is, but when you look at that 11%, a large chunk of that is taken up by individuals from European countries who have come here and have access to housing or social housing, or we have a travel agreement, for example. With Ireland, and as part of that, access to housing and social housing and those with refugee status. That's who make up the next sort of route. But no one ever talks about that. Instead, politicians, what they will try to feed the public is that it's aside because they're coming here on boats and they're immediately handed keys once they get to the shores into social housing and they jump the queue ahead of UK nationals. It is not the case. And that is why education is so important. But that's what we're being led to believe. We have a crisis. It's the responsibility of the government who have failed time and time again to deal with this. And this crisis can be traced back to the 1980s. That's the problem here and that's what we have to focus on. We have to fix it once and for all, for everyone living here, not just the few. We need to stop demonizing social housing and the people that live within social housing.

[C]

I totally agree. I think social media and all the media platforms have such a big stage and they. I think they, they narrate and navigate what people's thoughts. So I find it astonishing when I see articles, I see posts about these people come on the boats, they're taking your housing, they're taking your benefits. And I'm like, this is what the media wants you to think, because this is what sells papers, this is what makes them money, this is what goes for clicks, but you don't know the reality of it. And they talk about they've taken your benefit, your jobs, your jobs, your everything. I'm like, but no, these people have come, obviously the criteria to get status in this country, as difficult as it is, but they've come from such poor and serious and terrible conditions that they just want to have a good, healthy life with their children or come out of being a victim of torture or trafficking. Because we work really closely with our immigration Public Law department. And as soon as they get status, they obviously, you know, with Home Office, right, you're out of this accommodation, you need to go to a local authority. The majority of the cases we take on, the local authorities say, well, you're not empowered to me because you're a single man. But they're not knowing this single man is a victim of torture, slavery, he's being raped by so many people, he's mentally unstable. But they think, well, we don't have any medical evidence. Our medical evidences suggest you're fine, you can go and find your own accommodation. But they don't know what he's gone through in his life. And I think this all then goes to this social platform. Look at these people taking your houses, taking your children's, you know, future. But they don't see that it's a really small percentage.

[B]

Well, exactly. And the big problem is a lot of people that are being fed this information have never, has never spoken to someone who has made the journey and decided to come here to UK to truly understand. They see the numbers and data and statistics and the headlines that we see in newspapers and online. I remember there was one case I dealt with during lockdown and this was a lady, she was so sweet. I was introduced to her and I had to work with her for a couple of years. Actually. She had come here and was at risk of being deported back to Kenya. The reason she had fled Kenya was because FGM was carried out on her against her will. She was forced to have fgm. It wasn't sort of in a hospital or anything, it was on her kitchen table at home and she was being abused, like really badly abused. She had kids and she fled Kenya and came here, over to the uk. I believe at the beginning of longer. When she came here, she had an infection, she had to go to hospital. They realized what happened to her and she was black and blue. I saw pictures of her. Now, her first side of application was turned down and she appealed it. So she was going for a second appeal at court and I joined her, bearing in mind before this has happened before the second appeal where I attended court with her and had to listen to a legal professional from the Home Office try to defend why in this case it was acceptable for her to be deported back, bearing in mind there was evidence and I saw the evidence that she was told, if she's returned, they are waiting for and they're going to kill her. Now, before that had happened, I watched her sister being murdered on video that was sent to her in a field by a gang of men, stripped naked and killed and also her brother was killed shortly after. Not only that, her father's house was then burnt down and they made threats to go after the kids. Now, whilst this was all going on, came the second court case and I had to stand up at the end of it and I had to tell the judge, I said, I don't know if this gets to count or anything, I'm just making you aware because it feels like it's something I need to do whilst I'm stood here before you guys make the decision, but there is a news case, Sky News case on her story and what she's been through and it is public information now in regards to her situation and her asylum, like the case was accepted after that point. Had that not been, she would have been willingly deported back to Kenya and she wouldn't be here right now. She'd be dead and God knows what would happen to her kids. She had a daughter. FGM's a massive issue out there. These issues, the issues that we have here in the uk, we often don't think much wider than just the UK and the things going on in the world which are absolutely horrific. But that isn't taken into consideration, especially by some politicians when it comes to talking about asylum seekers. And I understand it's a big issue around immigration and something has to be done about it. I'm not saying that, I'm not saying we should absolutely just open our borders to anything, absolutely everyone. But what we cannot be doing is for the simple reason these individuals have come here fleeing violence or suffering as their last resort of health, then deport them back to be killed. Yeah, because if it was us in that situation, I always say, treat people like you would like to be treated. We would be horrified if that became the norm.

[C]

Yeah, I was going to say, I

[B]

do think that just to echo what

[A]

you're more what you're saying, Claudio, there definitely is, I think, a very cynical but transparent attempt to weaponize the housing crisis. The politicians now need to acknowledge, because it's such, you know, it affects so many people. You have increasing numbers of people renting because they can't get on the housing ladder, increasing amounts of people's salary. You know, I think on average 50% of a person's take home salary is spent on just paying their landlord to rent what is in a lot of cases a substandard home. So now there has to be some recognition or acknowledgement of the housing crisis that we're in. And some politicians are weaponizing that in order to further push an extreme racist agenda. Well, I mean, I say racist, no doubt racist, but their agenda and to garner both rather than actually offering any policies to deal with the matter. It costs money to build houses the state doesn't want to. In parties that are, I think all of the mainstream parties simply don't want to invest in things like social housing because it costs money. Whether or not that's right or wrong, they don't want to do that. And I think that that crisis is now being used in order to push a particular kind of politics, which is really dangerous. It's horrible to say See, what is a genuine crisis being used for opportunistic cynical end.

[B]

It's definitely. I mean there needs to be, I say, a lot more collaboration. We're all busy firefighting. Right. So it's hard to. But there has to be in order to create a uniform, like uniformed argument and case put forward. Especially with everything that's going on at the moment. I do a lot of that now. Like, I've fallen into sort of the journalistic element of it now. Like I work with Watt Stein users and stuff. She was the first journalist to come down that. She got it straight away. So she's. And she was helping housing cases from 20 years. I was a kid when she started. Like. Yeah, she's incredible.

[A]

Have you ever spoken with Vicki Spratt? You know.

[C]

Yeah,

[B]

yeah, I saw.

[A]

I know she wrote. She's big on. Big on tenants rights and things like that. And she wrote that book Call Tenants. Yeah. You guys must have collaborated at some stage.

[B]

But I sat on a few panels with her. She's really on you with these issues. And she'd been doing housing like years before I started campaigning. But also Pete Abs. Do you know Pete Abs?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

He wrote the book Show Me the Bodies and he's got a new book now that's out like. And he's an incredible writer too. Incredible. That fits in absolutely with the work that we do.

[C]

Amazing.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Done a few panels. He great. Like whenever I do that. Go to the grandpa anniversaries or. He's very. He, he. He's very in tune with the grandpa community too. Like, he. He's actually in the documentary, the Netflix one for. On the Grandpa Fire. Yeah, that one I've after recently. Yeah, he's interviewed him that. He's an incredible, incredible guy.

[C]

He must have met some incredible people that inspirational even just enhance my thing.

[B]

Yeah, even his brain, like, I don't know a quarter of the stuff that he does. And same with Vicky Spratt. That's why, I mean like the legal side, the journalism side campaign inside. There's so much knowledge there. But pulling it together.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Which I know is the role of sort of journalists Negro here. But it's so important, so, so important. And I mean without sort of taking it too sort of politically in Labour's defence, I believe the stance that they really shouldn't take at the moment is recognizing and making it clear the very obvious weaponisation of the housing crisis at the moment pushing an entirely different and sort of regressive understanding of both immigration and housing and the interlink between two. What they need to do is take accountability and admit that this is a crisis that has been building for generations and actually put forward really credible solutions to tackle the supply side issue, which has been absolutely neglected for decades. That would prove that they are really serious about tackling this issue because they absolutely need to make sure that this is another subject that's fundamentally weaponized in order to push the sort of personal ambitions of politicians out there that will do absolutely anything they can just to get into power, regardless of who they turn against each other. So fundamentally, I think that's what needs to happen. But you're absolutely right. We're seeing from some parties and some individuals that they aren't willing to admit there is a massive supply side issue and solution to this crisis. I don't even necessarily know if they've considered drawing up plans for that. Instead, what we're doing is like what we did 10, 15 years ago in terms of immigrants stealing our jobs and now it's immigrants stealing our housing and going down. That sort of divisive in groups of people rather than uniting against each other and saying, well, this is the path forward, this is how we avoid disaster, being on the Titanic and hitting an iceberg, and this is how we solve this crisis once and for all. Enough of that really isn't happening and hasn't been happening for a long time. And with that, they need to be bold, they need to be radical and they need to take a chance. They need to take risks with this. But the alternative to that is leaving the conversation dictated by those who aren't serious about tackling this crisis, which ultimately is going to lead to even more people continuing to suffer. It's interesting because when we look at politicians, it's always, when we talk about immigration, it's always divisive and negative, Right? It's what they're taking from us. It's never about what they are contributing or have been contributing. Housing, education, jobs, like, it's always they're taking, taking, taking from you. But we never talk about the benefits. For example, with the Windrush community that came over and helped build our nhs, it's never the positive contributions or the fact that there are many people living in social housing, for example, who are parents or grandparents from different countries who are actively working now and massively contributing to our society, helping strengthen the backbone of this country. It's never about that. It's always about being divisive and separating. And that's where the conversation, I guess, has become dominated. And we've allowed Them to run off with this idea and they will use it. Today it's housing, tomorrow it's going to be something else. We see the same cycle time and time again. And for anyone, whether you are white, black, brown, like, you will have parents and grandparents who would have told us about this growing up, right? We see the same cycle of this generation after generation, this issue and subject of immigration, where you're from, the color of your skin dominating conversation rather than looking for solutions long term. And we keep falling at the same hurdle. And this I'm afraid and worried about is going to be another one of those hurdles. And fundamentally, I think doing this for five, six years to allow that to just happen, we have to improve people's lives. We have to get serious on this issue and this subject and talk about the benefits of immigration too, as well as people's worries. We also have to acknowledge that's a given. Like there's people, for example, that would label everyone that votes for a form right as racist bigots. Now, I have no doubt that loads of the policies that they create is sort of dominated by this idea of immigration and focusing heavily on immigrants of color. But there are a lot of people that vote for these parties that are really in desperate and dire situations and looking for a way out and are being misled. There was one saying that someone gave me and I hope I remember it now, when I was up in Mayfield ahead of the recent by election, there was this white lady and her mum that I spoke to. So, so sweet. They experienced temporary accommodation, homelessness and whatnot. The benefits of social housing too. And she was talking about for reform, for example. And what she said is reform are not racist, but racist. Vote for reform. And when she said that, there was something that resonated with me. I hadn't really thought about it, but if that's because as a result of the policies that are being created by the top, not necessarily saying everyone is of that same belief that's choosing to vote for them, then there is a problem and it's something that we all have to wake up to.

[C]

Why do you think people think. Well, in quite much racist people vote for.

[B]

Well, I think a lot of people genuinely, and we talk about white working class people, if you look outside of London, really have been in communities that have struggled for decades. Again, again, you can trace back to Margaret Thatcher. You look at the miners strike, you look at places like Manchester, you look at Liverpool, you look at Leeds and all of these forgotten areas that are around those places and they have really, really really been let down. And for the last 14 years in particular, I remember the 2010 election, that was the first election I remember. And it was. My dad was on the sofa and he said to me, depending on which politician, if it's Gordon Brown or I think it was David Cameron at the time, whoever walks out of number 10 with an agreement that is going to dictate our future. And he was hoping, I can admit this, that it wouldn't be David Cameron. And now I look back many, many years later and think, you know what? I wasn't aware as a child what it was that he was actually trying to explain. I am now. And we've seen so much suffering over the last 14 years, whether you are from. Whether you are a black brown person or whether you're a white person from working class, everyone has struggled. And I think that's the overarching theme and issue here. And not enough is being done by politicians or political parties of different stripes and colours. And now what I think they're seeing is this new party pop up, coming up with different ideas, seen it as a new opportunity, and therefore automatically are thinking, this may be our way out. But they're not sitting back, actually absorbing everything that's going on amongst them, amongst the communities. Yes. They're in dire industrial situations and actually thinking, well, is this the best thing for the country? Are their intentions actually with us or is it their own personal ambitions? I think that's what more and more people need to wake up to and ask themselves. They have to ask themselves that question.

[C]

What do you think if we get a new government, what do you think we should do to fix our homelessness situation?

[B]

Whole host of things. I told this government, I told the Conservative government under Michael Go when he was. Which I have to say, I got absolutely dragged and slagged off for when I. I was working with Conservative governments with him and I had positive things to say. Well, the fact that I have positive things to say about it, I said at the time, it doesn't matter who I vote for, and I've never ever missed who I vote for at the election. No one knows. And I did that purposely because this issue is above party politics. If there is a party, regardless of their color, that does something right, or a politician that I think actually gets it, then I think it's worth sharing that with people that support the work I do so that they are aware and vice versa. If there are politicians, regardless of strikes, not doing enough. And I've called out Labour in the past, I've called out reform. I've called out the Conservative government at the time that Michael Goad was in some of the policies they were putting forward. And I think that is the right thing to do. And I say the same with reform. If they were coming up with genuine policies that thought this may go far in fixing this, I'd admit that. But you're almost stuck between a rock and a hard place to fist, because one thing could be said, one thing, or one week, and something else is being done the next week, and it's hard for people to come up. What people are tired of and they've said over the last 14 years, is not being able to trust politicians and trust politics. It all seems like a chess game to them. And we are ultimately their chess game. People have become sick and tired of that narrative and very aware, hyper aware of that. So what politicians may not deem as transparent or they think they'll be able to get away with it. The people that vote for them and people up and down the country, ordinary individuals, they are not stupid. And I think that by them is really an issue that is underestimated. And I'm so sick and tired of seeing that happen to pay up, but it's happening on a daily basis. So from your perspectives, what would you say is the most frustrating issue that you guys have to deal with on a daily basis? When it comes to housing and tenants and what it is that they're going

[A]

through, I think the most frustrating, it's difficult to isolate or identify a single issue. That's frustrating because a lot of the work that we do can be highly frustrating. I think dealing with, I think like you, dealing with local authorities, interacting with local authorities and trying to compel local authorities to perform what are their statutory duties is probably the most frustrating and energy sapping work that I have to deal with personally. Because, you know, every turn, when it comes to dealing with. If we have a homeless client and dealing with a local authority, at every turn there is a. You're having to get the local authority or something trying to compel the local authority to acknowledge and recognise and perform their statutory duty. That might be, for instance, you have a homeless client at the very beginning. It can be difficult even simply getting the local authority to recognise or accept a homelessness application in the first instance to accept the application, rather than simply referring your client elsewhere or telling them that there's nothing that they can do. Once you've then finally got the local authority to accept the homelessness application, then you end up having a fight about the provision of interim accommodation. And then you might get eventually some interim accommodation. And then thereafter the interim accommodation might be highly, highly unsuitable. The interim accommodation might be unsuitable because they're placed at the top of a tower block and they're disabled or they might be being referred out of London if they're from London up to, you know, to a different part of the uk, then if you get some suitable interim accommodation, secure interim accommodation, eventually, after what are many threats of legal challenges and actual legal challenges, you then have struggles getting the local authority to accept the main housing duty for vulnerable clients, or to persuade the local authority that your clients in priority need. And then after that you get back into further unsuitable accommodation being provided under the main housing duty. So I find that whole process extremely exhausting, extremely frustrating and a complete waste of everyone's time, waste of money, a waste of everyone's time and a waste of what little resource we have.

[B]

And I talk about efficiency a lot and the efficiency of spending. And I say how financially illiterate local authorities and housing associations can be. Because if we look at legal fees, for example, that local authorities in legal costs as a result of losing cases, money of which they argue and will argue they do not have, because many of them are on the verge of bankruptcy, but are willing to, they wouldn't have to pay out if they were doing their jobs right, first and foremost, foremost right. And that's why there are so many legal cases, so many legal challenges. This is why they're having to spend so much money is because of that inefficiency and illiteracy. But also you look at the amount of money spent on temporary accommodation, for example, in London we're spending 5.5 million a day on temporary accommodation. Again, these councils saying that they don't have money. In terms of government, we're spending about 30 billion on housing benefit, majority of which would be important private rental sector to private landlords or private organisations to house those that are homeless, rather than investing into long term solutions. So these are like examples of local authorities consistently being illiterate with the funding and money that they do have at their disposal. Is there something there that needs to be done alongside more funding for them? Because of course that is what is needed. But looking at the way in which money is being spent currently, I suppose

[A]

the thing is though, although, although local authorities will take a financial hit when, when matters proceed through, through court and they might end up with a big cost order. I mean, I don't know how successful, how successful local authorities are actually in turning away people you know, there'll be a lot of people who are actually turned away and are prevented from making a successful approach to the local authority. In order to be able to bring a successful challenge against the local authority, you really need a solicitor and most of the time it will be a legal aid solicitor and there's very little provision, legal aid provision when it comes to housing generally, but especially when it comes to housing. Looks like local authorities are, are making really stupid, irrational decisions, financially speaking. You know, it'd be better if they just spent money on housing, on, you know, finding suitable accommodation for people rather than having, rather than like fighting legal challenges.

[B]

Obviously, with my work I had to deal with local authorities. I had to deal with cases. There are some cases where there are. There is legal involvement and on behalf of local authorities to deter sort of fight on behalf of those legal authorities. They've got solicitors and lawyers and whatnot, barristers, and they're looking at it as potentially maybe going to court and it's really, really hard. I think there is a ruthlessness when it comes to legal representatives for them and sometimes makes it difficult to actually interact with local authorities in regards to finding solutions for those cases. Do you guys. How do you guys view it, individuals that worked in the legal sort of framework and background, do you guys find that side of things hard to the

[C]

issues we find difficult? I think the most difficult situation we deal with is probably lawyers who want to just argue for the sake of arguing. Richard and I have both come to a situation where we work for certain people, but they just want to make a name for themselves. And I think for us it's quite obvious this is the law, this is how it works, this is how the judge would want to present the case, this is the order that we should draft. But they want to argue the most trivial and minuscule issues. And I think we find it so time consuming as lawyers that for us it's like you're going to pay, you're going to end up paying for this. But then it's still the private purse because there's still a fulfilling the private purse. It might not be claiming from the legal aid agency, be claiming from. From the council, but I feel like some of them have like a personal vendetta against lawyers and they take it quite personally when we went against them. And I think that is an issue between the lawyers and not us, because we're here at the day to make sure our client is safe. They've got a roof over their head, they're living in suitable accommodation for Them and their household. But for them, for some reason, it's like a tick box. Yeah, it's like a tick box exercise. We won this case, we've got cost, we've done this, we've done that. And I think if they had dealt with everything at pre shoe, but we told them, your decision is unmoved because of A, B and C, here's the evidence. But they've continued to use evidence that they wish to rely on. For example, now medical, where they've not assessed our client, they've not seen our client, but the local authority review officer have decided to take more, put more weight on their medical evidence than our client's GP or their assessment. When our clients been personally assessed, looked at, gp, knowing them for years, but the local authorities decided to take their medical evidence into account rather than our clients. And it becomes a situation when you're like, how is that?

[A]

Why?

[C]

Why did you make that decision? When our client's gp, our client's side financials, our client's medical advisors, seeing our client assessed in, made assessments, but yet you want to rely on your medical advisor who's never seen a client, never assessed it. But just look at the document. To us, that doesn't make sense, but they will continue arguing their position until it goes to trial. And then I think 90%, which, if agree 90% of the time, just a day before the trial, they would say, okay, let's just consent, we withdraw our decision and make a fresh decision. So they've decided to go all that way until they've got a bounce of advice. And the bouncers then said, looked at the documents and said, well, maybe we should settle because their medical evidence is so strong compared to your medical evidence. And I think we should try to settle. But they will continue doing this because, number one, they've got the funding to do it because they may have a budget. This is your budget, use this budget. Because if they don't utilise that whole budget, the next budget, they won't get as much. And so previous years, because they haven't used it as much as last year. So I sometimes feel it's commercially for them, makes sense to challenge certain decisions because some of the decisions they challenge were like, are you serious? We had a case, Richard and I had a case where there was a local authority, a London local authority, and I'm not even joking. So Klein had fled Saudi Arabia for the transition. So she was, she was, she came to the uk, got asylum because she was transgender and she was still going through the transition. Process and she approached the local authority homelessness because she's got elder stay, she got her status and the local authority turned around and put her in accommodation full of men and she hadn't properly transitioned. She's from Saudi Arabia, so they put her in a. In accommodation full of men and she was abused by these men as a result. And we challenged it, saying it's not suitable for her because she'd been abused because of her sexual occasion, her transition. She had a transition fully. The local authority promises what they say, no matter where we put her, she'd be abused. So where she is sued. And then as soon as we got that decision, me and Richard, we both spoke to each other, we go, are you kidding me? A London local authority made a decision to say, wherever you put this person, this transgender, she's going to be abused. No matter where I put her in the country, it is what it is, it's suitable. You can't be an accident. So we obviously challenged that and it got to a point when our Scanton argument was like 50 pages of why their decision was so wrong. And as soon as we. We've done all that process and it's obviously the local given to a barrister who's looking at it and thought, great, need to settle this because this is really bad DNA. And then they tried to settle it and they said to us, can you sign an NDA non disclosure agreement to say you won't release who we are? And we said, no, we would agree to the consent. You move our client because our interest was for our client in get her out of this congregation that she's being abused. So with that, we're not going to sign this non disclosure. But then it took them. Richard, how many months were there that good? Six, seven months.

[A]

There is a degree of, you know, people just being. People, lazy people just being lazy. Oh, well, you know, we don't, we don't have to do anything immediately because we haven't got, we haven't got an appeal hearing for many months. So we won't bother looking at the matter again.

[B]

Sorry.

[A]

Yeah, But I think that, you know, people who often work in local authorities are very happy to just do their job as if it were a 95 Tesco shift job. I think that's the reality. They log off at 5:30 and they're like, what? You know, I don't care. This matter is going to get dealt with. This matter will get dealt with in six months time when the hearing is. It's like an artificial deadline. Is, is. Is.

[B]

I Think it's, it's absolutely true what you're saying. Like what people fail to realize is how complex some of these situations really are. And it's that granular detail which is absolutely missing. And there's this holistic view of, well, this is wrong and shouldn't be happening because this is all the information that we've been given about these places. Right. But when you work in the industry, when you see what is happening, you realize just how complex it becomes. The amount of bureaucracy and red tape and you know what, local authorities may argue it gets in the way of what they do too. But fundamentally it comes back to the people that you are serving and ultimately they are the ones left to suffer in these situations. And it's a sort of repeated situation, like court cases being drawn out longer than they need to. It comes down to the interests of those involved, I guess. And that ultimately needs to be questioned because it needs to be made efficiently. Councils need to be made be working more efficiently when it comes to cases and tenants they're dealing with. But even legally we know the issue with court backlogs, for example, and how long it takes for rest things. That process needs to be made more efficient. It's not about what individuals are being paid or what's in their best interest career wise, it's delivery when it comes to individual cases. And that often is the important point which is forgotten when we're dealing with people's lives and we have to remember it's people's lives ultimately that is the item line

[A]

because there are a lot of homeless people, people and homelessness is an increasing problem. There is a strong element of people, people on the front line within local authorities who are dealing with these homelessness cases becoming case hardened. That's why you tend to find housing officers, for instance, being quite unsympathetic to individuals. You've got exactly the same health conditions as everyone else, as everyone else has. So I think there is a strong element of people becoming kind of case hardened when it comes to dealing with homelessness. Okay.

[C]

Is things just as bad in this private sector?

[B]

Well, I mean the data shows that it's worse and things are already absolutely horrific in the total housing sector, but I guess the difference is people are paying absolutely ridiculous prices in the private rental sector just to suffer. And I know we've got had changes in legislation from the Labour government, I have to point out, and you have to put dues where dues are deserved, a lot of it drawn up under the Conservative government and mention of those changes needs to happen. Obviously, the Conservative government failed to deliver it in the time in which they promised. And obviously we've had a change in government and Labour have come forward and made changes to try and improve things in the private rental sector. But the big issue for me comes down to enforcement. What I've learned, and learned very quickly, is you can draft bits of information down onto a piece of paper and sign it into law, but if it's not enforced in the way that it needs to be, and I talk about Auerbish act in the same way, if it's written down in a piece of paper and signed into law but it's not enforced, it's not worth the paper it is written on, unfortunately, because it's not improving people's lives. And people talk about the private rental sector and forget that we have had laws in place for a very long time in order to try and mitigate the issues that we're seeing now. They weren't enforced. And that's why we have been seeing things get progressively worse, really bad in the private rental sector, coupled with this idea that housing is an opportunity to accumulate wealth and improve your financial prospects, rather than seen as a human right. We've also got players in the sort of industry that profit off that fact. Right? And things are and have been easy for a very, very long time, but more and more tenants suffering, not just with the physical and emotional and mental impact of having to rent in the private rental sector, but financially too. We've got more and more paid people paying more than 50% of their monthly income on rent, yet are having to fight too. Fine. Able to be heard and get issues in their homes dealt with. And that fundamentally, I think is wrong. And it's as a result of poor reinforcement powers when it comes to the laws that exist. And you have got people living in damp mould, the same sort of situations that people in social housing are having to live in. At the moment, it's just under a different landlord. Which to me shows that there is a common thread, a common issue around sort of accountability when it comes to the conditions people are living in, when it comes to homelessness, who you decide to accept into your property or not. And that all needs to. We have to go back to the drawing board, really change that. Really look at it. It's the culture, it's the stigma. It's again, we say jump and you're expected to say or ask how high. It's very much that that underpins things. And there are a lot of people in the Private rental sector at the moment suffering, and there are some that live in quite decent housing. Right. But the affordability issue is a huge problem and we've got a government now that are talking about building exit. They're not giving us, and I know why, they're not giving us the detail of what those affordable homes look like and who they're going to be affordable to. Often I've called for a number to be given or a target in regards to the amount of council and social housing that they're going to build, because we all know as a country that that is the only genuinely affordable type of housing option, especially for renters out there at the moment. Yet we've not been given that number because they're dressing it up as affordable housing. They want affordable housing, but they fail to explain what affordable means because it sounds good on their ear. But that isn't going to solve the housing crisis, that isn't going to solve social housing. That's not going to solve the state of unaffordability when it comes to the private rented sector. That's not going to solve the conditions people are living in in the private rental sector. And I just want more and more people to wake up to that fact and actually really question things. Don't just listen for the sake of listening, and listen to a tagline or a headline and think, oh, this is great, look for the detail. You need to ask them for the detail so you truly understand what is being opposed. So it's a mixture between laws not being enforced and what we're being promised sounding good. And I have to describe it as the government promising us diamonds but throwing us crumbs instead. And ultimately, that's what needs to change. We as voters, we as the members of the public, need to wake up to that and truly understand what it is that we're being told and demand the changes that we really feel is necessary in exchange for our votes.

[C]

How do you feel about Keir Starmer leaving?

[B]

How do I feel about Kiya Starmer leaving? On a personal note, I feel like I'm a very sort of empathetic person. And it's not just Keir Starmer where this has happened, but there have been resignations from other prime ministers, Theresa May being one, where obviously during their speeches they do get emotional. And I do think that is genuine because at the end of the day, you are in the job. As much as you think you have a team around you, you are isolated and it's, I guess, hard when you're faced with the reality that people no longer want you in power, they want change and they're demanding change. So on a human level, feel somewhat empathetic with that speech. But then in reality I'm also thinking, okay, quajo, but what have you had to deal with whilst he has been in power? What is it that they promised before the election and actually in comparison when they got into government delivered? And it has been massively underwhelming. In regards to Housing, I do think that I would like to see a new Housing Secretary and I've said this many a times since doing this work, I want to see a Housing Secretary that genuinely gets it and cares. I perhaps was a bit more disappointed when it was Angela Rayner and obviously the tax issue that she faced and as a result resigned from Housing Secretary. I felt there was more that she could have done while she was Housing Secretary, but obviously didn't have enough time, let's say, or that issue cropped up and therefore had to resign. I want to see someone that gets it, someone that cares, someone that experienced it, someone that sees this issue as more than just a physical stepping stone onto another career or just further in their career, someone that genuinely cares, wants to improve people's lives and understands that housing is our foundation. And none of the issues, whether it help, whether it be health, education, justice, none of these issues can be solved without first and foremost focusing on that, treating it as the solution to tackling all the wider issues that we're facing. Do I feel like we've got that yet? No. So I'm hoping with the new government and I personally sat on panels with Andy Burnham, I've met him in person, we've spoken about this. Having been on those panels, I do believe that he cares. But I'm also not naive. As an individual that has worked in and amongst politics for the last few years, from an outside perspective, I get that it's good enough saying something and I'm tired of lip service. It's very different actually delivering action. But I am hopeful. I think there's light at the end of the tunnel. That tunnel is getting much, much smaller the closer and closer we get to the next general election. And quite rightly, the Labour government should be questioned on their sort of record over the last will be five years, hopefully, of them having the opportunity to deliver on housing. But if they have failed, they absolutely deserve to be called out for it, because I would have called for the exact same had it been a Conservative or reform government. They have an opportunity here, they need to take that opportunity. I Am hopeful, but time is running out and they cannot forget that. Sometimes I think they become somewhat complacent around it and how much of an impact housing or poor housing or a lack of housing has on ordinary people's lives. And they are separate from that. They have to acknowledge that they are in a very different position to the ordinary working person at the moment. But they have to go far and beyond to understand those communities, understand what it is that they need and what it is, what it is that they want. And it first and foremost starts with having a safe, decent and affordable route over their head. They should never, I don't believe, forget it. Because that's the mistakes previous governments have made and they've ultimately had to pay for it.

[C]

If someone said, right, you're the Housing Secretary, what first thing you check, I

[B]

would create a national strategy policy when it comes to Edmonton homes. And I say that because as a government that's promised to build 1.5 million homes and us being about two years in now, I think, or thereabouts, we don't have time on our hands. But what we do know is we've got this opportunity here of homes, over a million in England being sat empty. Why are we not using it during the second biggest house or the biggest house crisis, housing crisis we have faced since the Second World War? It is economic illiteracy. Second thing I would do is a National council house building strategy as a priority. I have to pick a third point and that would be tackling the affordability crisis in the private rented sector, because that is driving homelessness and more and more people will suffer and have to turn to councils that don't have the homes as a result of that. The reason I pick that or those three is because I feel like they are solutions that work within each other. If we can build more council housing and council housing since the 80s has been seen as a poor person's game. It's been seen as an opportunity only for those suffering. And I completely understand because we were selling off, we were reducing the social housing stock that we had. Of course we need to protect those that are most vulnerable in the country. But if you look to other countries, that is not protected case. And social housing is seen as something for all that everyone can access. What social housing gives you is affordability, security and in other countries, safety. Right. And in order for people to save. And governments time and time again talk about home ownership. Home ownership, home ownership. What they forget is the ordinary working person at the moment, it's a pipe dream for them. If you allow them for access social housing, especially young people, they will be given the opportunity to save because they can afford it. Not pay more than 50% of their income on rent to a private landlord or in the private rental sector. They will have the opportunity to save. They will have a quality of life. They will be putting that money back into our economy, not accommodation economy, and stimulating that economy. And they will be given the opportunity, if they wish to save so that one day, if they want to, they can climb the property ladder and they have that opportunity. Right now we do not have that. And our safety net, our foundation of where it starts and something that we can build upon is investing in mass council house building in order to get the numbers up. And people are stuck on waiting lists into those homes to give them those opportunities, whether it be work, whether it be education or whether it just be to live a company life where they are able to save and they are able to spend back into our economy. But so many people don't have that at the moment. So those would be my three policies. There's so much more around stigma, attitudes towards social housing that I think that's our starting point. It needs to be our foundation. But those are the three big ones. And also, sorry, I picked a four. I would set a target. I don't think it's fair whatsoever for kids have to grow up homeless and living in temporary accommodation. If there is any motivation for us, the country, it should be that I would set a goal to eradicate. Whether it's my government, whether it's the next government to completely eradicate child homelessness. Because kids are being born now, right? And stuck in temporary accommodation through no fault of their own. Just by chance. They're not asked to be born into the lives they are born into, but they are. What they are being or what is being done to them is they are being condemned to a cycle of poverty through no choosing of their own. And I think that is the biggest disgrace when it comes to housing in this country that we as the growing adults and decision makers should be making for future generations. We shouldn't wait for things to get worse for them. They are our future labor force, they are our future decision makers, they are our future country. But after we are gone and we are no longer here, they are going to have to rely on themselves and the next generation. We should set an example for them. But ultimately it starts with housing. It starts with being bold and setting those policies in stone. And you know what, if they can't meet in five years time at least they set those policies out. At least they set themselves ambitions, goals. They can show us that they were willing to be bold. It might be left because we've been waiting so long. It could be left to another government or two governments from now. But if there is consensus to work towards that, then they have delivered what I believe should be our priority as a country.

[C]

Last few questions. Wakes you up and do what you do on a daily basis. I know you've been through so much and I can only imagine what you've gone through. But what wakes you up and says, you know what I've got. I stopped him do this.

[B]

There's three things here and one obviously is dad. And talk about him quite a bit. Have made it clear that like had that not happened, had I not had to deal with that, I wouldn't have had the motivation to be doing what I'm doing now. I would have known no different. I just wouldn't be here doing it, quite frankly. And I know the individual he was, his job, his background, the fact that he cared that we've all. I don't think there is any job he would rather me have right now than what I'm doing now. Knowing how stressful it is, knowing how difficult it is, knowing that I can't get back to absolutely everyone. I think he would have grasped how important this is and recognize that for all that we have been through, for all that he had been through and experienced, he wouldn't want that for another family. So every day that I wake up, I realize, remember everything that I've been through with him. And although that like he is not here no more. I take that with everything that I do. Regardless of if it's difficult, regardless of if it's easy at times and I feel it's successful and it's working. That's what keeps me going. The next thing is Grenfell. And I know dad was a part of that too. He was still here. He didn't see the aftermath or as much of the aftermath as I have. He would have hated the fact that we are nine years on now. Very little has happened. I was with him on the day that we woke and watched that. And that for me was the light bulb moment. And I always think about it because I always say if I can play a small role in trying to make sure something like that, whether it's on a mass level or individual level, where someone passes away when things could have been changed, then at least I want to try and play a role in that. I remember starting out and thinking that I couldn't just help my neighbor, then I'm happy, because job well done. And luckily for me, it's gone far beyond that over the last few years. But also I think about the next generation and the kids that I work with. I'm much older than them, although sometimes I feel like a child. Kids and their stories take me back to when I was a kid. I recognise that I'm not. But I also realize how backwards we have gone since my situation and how many more young people and kids are suffering as a result of that. And if I can try and make an impact and use my voice and force accountability where I can, then it's necessary. And I want to be able to inspire not just young people, but people of all ages to feel like actually their voices do matter. Just because they're an ordinary individual doesn't mean they deserve to be ignored. If I can do it, a young boy at the time of a council estate in South London, and do what I've been able to do, which I'm so, so lucky and blessed and grateful to have been able to do up until this point, then I want everyone to believe that they can do exactly the same. I am no different to the next person. I know that I. That I know I can talk about these issues now because I've learned. I was never academic in school, I was never the smartest person in the room, but I'm someone that gets it. And when you do, especially from lived experience, I do think it's. It's the most powerful tool anyone can possess. So for me, those are the three really important things. And I, quite frankly, like being a pain in the ass. Hey. Yeah. I enjoy it. I can't lie.

[C]

I read somewhere that you were offered an MBE and you turned it down.

[B]

Yes.

[C]

Why did you turn that? Because, you know, anyone else would be like, you know, I'll take that.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Why did you turn it?

[B]

It's interesting. I still don't know who nominated me for that.

[C]

You deserved it.

[B]

Well, I remember putting out a statement and I was really grateful, like, to whoever that was, because I got that they recognized my work and they wanted me to be recognized for the work I was doing. And I do genuinely believe whoever it was, it was with the best intention. And maybe one day I might find out, I might not. But for me, I suspected something like that could happen before it happened. And normally people would be like, oh, my days. Like, I want it to happen. When is it going to happen? I've met people that want MBE someone would be sick. But for me, I was dreading it. And I was dreading it because I already knew what my answer would be and it was what it was. And I have been someone that's like, I've never been into. I obviously know of the Royal Family. I've never been a sort of royalist or anything. I get. People love it. People come internationally to the UK because they enjoy it, respect the Royal Family and what. They're a huge part of the world, right? Just like any other celebrity, really, or icon that people might respect. But for me, that was never me. I love Beyonce, like, she is my thing, like, and it's always been the case, but it's never really been that with the Royal Family. And since then, I have done some work with Prince William and Homewoods, I have spoken to Swim, I've spoken to his team, and it's all been really, really positive, I have to say. Like, people have their own views and say, why are you saying this? And different background, different views and whatnot. But I think it's fair to be honest about my experiences. And the same thing with Michael, go, like, it's the rooms that you sit in, the conversation that you have, regardless of whether people believe that's the case or should be the case, it's facts. And I think that's all that I can do. But the reason I turned it down was, at the time, on a daily basis, as I am now, I'm dealing with cases, I'm seeing people suffer in the same way my family was suffering. I know what that feels like, I know what it looks like. I was there sleeping on top of furniture in a storage unit, living in infested accommodation, not being listened to by your house provider. I know what that is like. And I thought to myself, I don't want a medal, I don't want a title. Yes, I might get upgraded on a flight to God knows where, whenever I get a flight. But to me, that isn't why I have chosen to do what I am doing. If instead of an mp, they turned around and said, we really respect your work, and for that, we are going to deliver on this issue once and for all. We are going to sort the housing prices, we are going to prioritize it, I would have walked away happily with that. But to just receive medals, to receive trophies, to receive awards, like, it's nice, but it's not why I'm here. And it's always been the case and it will always be the case. Some people were saying at the time, well, Are you sure you don't want to take it? Because it will open so many doors and opportunities for you. But just like I would tell the next person coming up and the next campaigner, the next person on this date with an issue that they want to voice and speak about, I am not here to receive awards or celebrate something that isn't or hasn't been dealt with. I'm here because I genuinely understand what the issues are and want to improve people's lives. So if it's that they can offer, I'm happy to accept that. But titles and all of those sorts of things, it doesn't. I can't take that in my brain with me. I can't take that to the next life or whatever happens afterwards. I won't look back at the end of my life and think, you know what, I'm filled because of that. What I will be fulfilled thou just thinking, you know what, you've used your one life and your opportunity to try and create as much change as possible and you've done that well so you can rest peacefully. And I know it's so like I guess depressing talking about the end of someone's life and whatnot, but that's what I want. Yeah, that's why, that's how I see it.

[C]

So you will make a change and there'll be circle.

[B]

Oh, we'll see. We'll see. I might be a bit of a too much of a pain in the ass for that. This is the biggest crisis that we are facing as a country and it's a very, very complex one. But it's one that I fundamentally believe that we can't ignore longer than we already have. We do not have the opportunity to do so. And unless we tackle this once and for all, what we do know is more and more people are just going to continue suffering in their day to day lives. And a part of that is division that is caused as a result of it. And we will see more and more of it. But what we all have to recognise, regardless of background and where we're from, is shelter is our number one foundation. It's the foundation of which we build upon. And I always say you cannot build a home from the roof down. You have to build it from its foundations up. And until we get that right, there are always going to be lessons that we need to learn. So we have to draw a line and recognize that if we're going to do it, we have to do it once and for all and we have to direct as a group together our asks at those responsible which is government and recognise that this is an issue that we no longer just recognize but one that we demand to be fixed and we have to do it together. So if there's one message that I think I believe on it would be that we have to think wider than just ourselves as individuals in our day to day lives. We have to think about those around us. We don't move forward just as individuals. I think as a country we have to move forward together and it starts by us all working together and being on the same page and ultimately that's how we build upon our foundations.

[A]

Thank you so much Kwajo for coming in and giving us some of your time this afternoon. We really enjoyed having you on and these are obviously really important topics to be discussing and no doubt we'll have you again on the podcast to discuss matters further and as, as as as as things develop. Thank you everyone for listening to this episode of this is Housing Po.