Vanessa (2:42)

Not just crying. You were, like, sobbing, ugly crying.

Carly (2:46)

So if you need a good cry in the most beautiful of ways, listen in. Hi, Jenny. Welcome back.

Jenny Berhenni Wallace (2:55)

Oh, I love being with you guys.

Carly (2:57)

You just needed to write another book so you could come back on our podcast. I mean, honestly, we'd have you back even if you didn't Write another book. But we are here to talk about mattering. And before we get to your new book, I want to take listeners back and ground them in our previous conversation and in your first book, Never Enough, and what you learned from the experience of writing it and the messaging. Because I literally just lived a lesson from Never Enough that's going to help us move from that to today's conversation. My daughter was in an AP class and she was miserable in all caps and kept it to herself for a while, then finally told me right before she could, you know, potentially drop it. And then her college counselor didn't want her to drop it because it was removing some rigor from her schedule on the, you know, eve of applying to college. And I finally, I channeled the lessons from Never Enough. And I said to her, your well being is more important than an AP class. Your mental health is more important than the rigor on your transcript. I am making the decision for you. You are dropping this class. And she said, thank you so much, and has spent the last several weeks telling me about all the ways in which the class got even worse after she dropped it.

Vanessa (4:36)

She even told me.

Carly (4:38)

She even told Cara probably more than once when Cara was at our house. So, Jenny, with that very personal anecdote, which I imagine people can relate to as we move on to talk about mattering, can you start us off with what you learned about mattering in reporting Never Enough, how that became your touchstone in the context of the wellbeing of young people and how we're now going to expand that into a broader conversation?

Jenny Berhenni Wallace (5:06)

Well, that story of your daughter is. It resonates so much with me. What I say to my kids is, yes, I want you to achieve. Yes, I want you to reach for high goals, but not at the cost of your mental health or your physical health. And so our kids do need guardrails. And so you were the guardrail. And she will always remember that. Truth be told, I wish I had written this new book first, but I didn't know about mattering when I went out to report Never Enough. So Never Enough stemmed from my own experience as a parent of three kids. At the time, my oldest was entering high school, and I was noticing how different my children's childhood was from my own growing up. That achievement mattered to my parents, but it didn't define my childhood the way it does so many young people today. And what I found in the research, I went in search of the kids who were actually doing well despite the pressure in their environment. And it boiled down to this idea of mattering, that the kids who were doing well despite the pressure felt like they mattered for who they were deep at their core and they were relied on to add meaningful value back. So mattering acted like a kind of protective shield. It didn't mean they didn't bomb tests and get rejected by friends or not make the team. But mattering acted like a buoy that would lift them up. So they were able to bounce back from setbacks because what mattering did is it. It told them that you matter no matter what. So these setbacks were just setbacks. They weren't an indictment of their worth. But what I was hearing over and over again in my conversations with parents and for Never Enough I interviewed hundreds of parents around the country was so often they were telling me that they felt like they didn't matter. Just some of the few parents I spoke to. One was a doctor at a major medical center who talked about how he was being crushed by insurance companies and by this model where he had to get through patients quickly. And he talked about his work life as death by a thousand clicks, where he spent more time looking at his screen than in his patients eyes. It was educators who were telling me that they were burnt out, that they mattered too much, that everyone else's needs were important and prioritized over theirs. And so I heard these stories, people in finance, people in law feeling like hogs in the wheel, that they felt invisible at work and interchangeable. And what I understood from the research was that our children's resilience rests on our resilience. Their sense of mattering rests on our sense of mattering. Our kids can't sort of out cope us in that way. And so when we are made to feel like we don't matter for 8, 10, 12 hours a day in our workplaces, how can we show up and be the first responders to our kids struggles day in and day out? We can't. And so that's really what brought me to this next book. What I realized is if we want to make a dent in the youth mental health crisis, we we need to go upstream and take care of the adults in their lives because they are suffering. According to new data out of the Harvard Graduate School of Education, the parents are struggling in these dyads. In this study where they were studying teenagers who were struggling with mental health, at least one parent in the household was also struggling. And something like half of the teens that they surveyed reported that they worried about the mental health of one of their caregivers. So that's what led to the mattering book.

Vanessa (8:44)

I want to pedal back for a second and go to the examples that you used as you were describing, the ways in which you started to understand that people felt like they didn't matter. Because in that set of people, you also had a group and you write

Kara (9:05)

about them in your book, who felt

Vanessa (9:08)

that they mattered too much. And before we get into the data around mental health, can we talk a little bit about this concept?

Kara (9:18)

I think I came to your book

Vanessa (9:19)

thinking it was gonna be all about feeling like you don't matter. And when I hit the point in the book where I started to read about overwhelm in the other direction, I was surprised. And then I was surprised at my surprise. So I think this gets a little bit to something you talk about in the book, which is impact versus purpose. Can you explain that a little bit in the context of how you got to this overarching theory?

Kara (9:49)

And where does impact sit?

Vanessa (9:50)

Where does purpose sit? And where does that overwhelm, which is,

Kara (9:53)

I think, a little bit the third leg of that stool, where does that sit?

Jenny Berhenni Wallace (9:57)

Mattering researchers describe it as a meta need or an umbrella term after the drive for food and shelter. It is the drive to matter that shapes human behavior for better or for worse. So a meta need, just to go back to that idea, a meta need, meaning that it is a deep, fundamental human need to matter. And under it, it's like an umbrella. And under it are things like purpose, connection, mastery, self determination. You can work, like I said in those examples, as a doctor, you could work a very purposeful job and wonder if you are actually making the impact. So it could cause you to burn out. When it comes to people like educators, it is the idea of mattering too much. So feeling this lopsided sense of mattering, mattering, and this is what's really hard, particularly for me, was mattering is a balance between mattering to ourselves and mattering to others. And it is something that I wish I had known as a young mother because I put everyone else's needs, not just my kids needs, everyone else's needs, above my own. And what did that do? It wore me down. It made me less resilient for the young people in my life. And so it was learning about mattering this idea that, yes, you want to add value to others because that's how you get this rich sense of mattering, but you also need to feel valued and. And add value to yourself on a daily basis. This is oddly countercultural. In our world, right? We are told what a good mother or a good educator or a good doctor or a good nurse is always putting everybody else's needs ahead of your own. But we know from the research that that is not true. Mattering it requires balance.

Kara (11:54)

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Carly (14:42)

part of why it's so easy to feel like you're failing as a parent, because we pour so much into our kids and what we deem as the sort of value back is like the outcome, the product. I mean, they're human beings, but like, how, quote, well they're doing. And more often than not, kids are not doing great or they're not doing great in all areas. And so the sort of, like, feeling like we're adding value back, like there's a sort of our impact, it's hard to measure because often, like, it's a long game and the impact doesn't look so hot and our kids are, like, screwing up or failing or struggling or just fine. And, you know, I think all the time, Jenny, about those early days as a parent and how grueling it was and how hard it was and how rarely I felt like I was doing a good job. And it's weird because I knew I mattered. Like, I knew the survival of my children literally depended on me, like, getting up and feeding them and changing them and taking them places. But my work product is such as a parent, it's such a long time coming that it's so much easier to feel like you're failing than that you're doing well.

Jenny Berhenni Wallace (16:07)

That is so true. And what I will say is that one of the things I wish I had done when I was in that moment in time, those young early days, those sleepless days, was to spend more time connecting to my impact. The idea that your impact is in small moments, it's not necessarily, yes, you can look at it at their 18th birthday or their 16th birthday and look back, but really it's in those everyday moments that you have to slow down and force yourself to connect to your impact. And it's also helpful to have dear friends that you can confide in who can challenge you when you feel like maybe you're not making the impact that you want. Who could say, actually, and I, and I have these people in my life and I feel so lucky to have them when I doubt my impact and they say, no, actually, actually, you are the one that did this. You were the one that discovered that you were the One that supported this. There's a story I tell in the book about firefighters. Now, you would imagine that firefighters have the most purposeful work. I mean, they're saving lives, literally. They're saving people's homes, their prized possessions. And yet I spent time with firefighters who questioned their worth in the community. And that was because I don't know if you know this, but, or you read the book, but I don't know if the average person knows this, is that firefighters are often the first to arrive at the scene of an accident or a medical emergency. They perform cpr, they take, you know, victims out of. Out of cars, and then EMS takes over and takes them to the hospital. And firefighters never know what happened next, if their efforts saved a life or ease someone's suffering. And so I met a fire chief who created a system to change that for his firefighters. He wanted them to know when their efforts made a difference. So he created a system that tracked the outcomes of rescues. And what I will say is that that idea of creating a system to connect us to our impact is something all of us can do. We don't have to be firefighters, we don't have to be first responders. We don't even have to work in an office to connect to our impact. And it could be as simple as thinking about this phrase, which I love in the book is if it wasn't for you, how would your kids trajectory have changed? If it wasn't for you, who would have helped your aging parent? If it wasn't for you, who would have helped your friend through the death of a parent or job loss or a painful life transition? So really connect, connecting to our impact. And we can do this in small ways. We can every night before we go to bed. I know somebody now who does this. Someone that was introduced to the idea of mattering. And every night next to her bed, she has a little book and she writes one way, small way that she made a difference. Be as small as found this amazing spot at Costco and let somebody else have it. Let someone else have that spot.

Carly (19:03)

Related to that, Jenny, you use an example of how when you're having a bad day, you let people merge into traffic. And it's so funny that you use that example because I, whenever I can, I let people like turn in or merge in. It's like my. It's like my one good deed that I can do. Nothing is that important that I can't let somebody else. And maybe they're in a hurry. And it was so funny to read that because I was like, yes, that's my thing, too. And then when my kids are in the car, I particularly like to do it because I want to model for them that, like, there's always moments to have, as you say, impact and to show generosity. And the other day, I did it when two of my kids were in the car, and they were like, okay, mom, good deed of the day. And I had never said to them, oh, you know, I purposefully do this. It makes me feel good to help someone else out. But they noticed it. And then it was the craziest thing. I was heading to the supermarket to pick up one thing, and I run into the supermarket, and I was in a rush, and I had a loaf of bread in my hands. And there was a woman ahead of me in line with a shopping cart. And she looked at me and she said, oh, well, you only have one thing. I have a whole cart. Why don't you go ahead of me? And it was like this crazy, karmic moment of, like, I did it for someone else, and then this woman did it for me. And it was just like, really? Really. It was so beautiful. But to see you write about it in the book just cracked me up. Cause it was like I was like, oh, I thought I was the only one.

Vanessa (20:39)

I'm gonna chime in and say that not only do I relate to that anecdote, but I also have the opposite side of the coin where when everyone is taking turns and following the implicit rules of the road, like, two lanes are merging into one, and the right

Kara (20:55)

lane lets the left lane in, and

Vanessa (20:57)

then the left lane lets right lane in. And that is how it should go. And that is the most efficient. And then two cars from the right lane go, and someone, like, won't let you in. And it makes me lose my faith in humanity. Like, come on, people. Everyone is following the same rules. Everyone is trying to merge. Anyways, I want to go back to something, to the core of what you were talking about in terms of acknowledging if I hadn't done this, if sort of acknowledging your role in it in a more aggressive way, forceful way, explicit way. In a way. Explicit way, yes. That's a better word. Explicit way. And I want to say, I think if I'm being honest, when I read this thread in the book, I felt really uncomfortable. And I felt really uncomfortable because I feel like the whole concept of putting our own oxygen mask on first has been delivered to us with mixed messaging. I feel like it feels crummy to acknowledge what you do for other people in this very bizarre backwards way. It's like it's been socialized into us. And I was so aware of my discomfort while I was reading this, thinking, why? Why is this uncomfortable? Like, it feels. And then it felt very gendered to me. Only because the data on young girls versus young boys and how they engage in free play tells us that young girls create for someone and young boys create for themselves. Not always, but, you know, those are the typical sort of through lines. So a preschool girl might bake a fake cake for someone and a preschool boy might build a tower for himself. Very stereotypical.

Jenny Berhenni Wallace (23:00)

Right.

Vanessa (23:00)

But I was. All these thoughts were coming into my head about maybe that's the root of my discomfort. And I wonder if you can speak

Kara (23:09)

to that a little bit.

Vanessa (23:10)

Like, how do we get over this discomfort with acknowledging our role so that we can feel we matter?

Jenny Berhenni Wallace (23:20)

Right?

Vanessa (23:21)

Because if we know that mattering changes the way we operate in the world and it makes the microcosm of our home and the macrocosm of our community better, how do we let go of some of these things that are so deeply ingrained in us?

Jenny Berhenni Wallace (23:40)

So is the discomfort for you the idea that we shouldn't acknowledge our. Our efforts?

Vanessa (23:47)

The discomfort for me is we should, but I shouldn't. Does that make sense?

Jenny Berhenni Wallace (23:52)

Like, well, why shouldn't I guess I want to ask you. Right?

Vanessa (23:55)

That is the question. That is the question. I literally put the book down and I was like, why shouldn't I? But it's a socialization thing. I just feel like. And maybe it's generational maybe. I don't know. I don't. I wanted to pick up the phone and call my kids and say, how

Kara (24:10)

do you feel about this?

Vanessa (24:12)

Because I don't know if it was. If it's a me thing or a more global thing, but I just. There's a beautiful, tiny little corner of the book where you describe. I think it's your mother in law. Maybe your mom, but I think it's your mother in law who decorates her laundry room spaces. Yes, her laundry room, her coat closet. And so the way you describe it in the book is you describe taking pride and joy in these small spaces so that when she opens these little doors, it's for her. It's something that feels good for her. And I was like, okay, that I can wrap my brain around. That was. That was the bridge that got me to be like, oh, it's totally okay, because I do a version of that. I mean, by the way, that's brilliant. And I really want to do that, but I do like a version of that. That's something for me. And then it got me to feel like, okay, it's okay to acknowledge what matters to me. And, and very funny. I was reading the book while in parallel my husband and I are moving some stuff around our house and he was doing the relocation of these different pieces of furniture for me. And it was so funny to have a moment reading this book thinking, oh, it's okay to recognize it. He also knows what makes me feel seen and like I matter. But it was like, I wonder if you, as you were researching this book, came across that and had people say, this is such a relief to sort of rethink the way that we have been taught. Because it is not just okay, it is important to put yourself and your own needs and your own joys front and center.

Jenny Berhenni Wallace (26:10)

So I think there are two things going on with the discomfort. And so one of the things I think, perhaps I'm just theorizing here that maybe you see recognizing your impact as a lack of humility, that you are a trained doctor. And what I will say about humility is that humility is not about forgetting ourselves or thinking less of ourselves. It's rather thinking about ourselves in the right proportion. And so I'm not saying go around the world, me, me, me, self focused lens. Here's all the things I do, here's how I make an impact. I'm telling you to notice one thing a day in an area where you make an impact, to create that ripple effect of mattering, to fuel you, to give you energy.

Vanessa (27:01)

The butterfly effect.

Kara (27:02)

Yeah, the butterfly effect.

Vanessa (27:04)

It's so true.

Jenny Berhenni Wallace (27:05)

But you can do it. You can do it in a humble way. And the other thing is, with my mother in law, what I came to realize, particularly when I had young kids or kids who felt very needy to me and everybody's needs were important, is that was I not worthy of joy too? I think about this all the time in the holidays when everyone else's joy is prioritized. I am worthy of joy too. I am worthy and I need to model this for my kids.

Carly (27:34)

Jenny, let's jump off from there and talk about a point you make about being someone's number one. And you talk about the importance of feeling like you are someone's number one. And yet as caregivers, as parents, frankly, as mothers, we so often feel like everyone else is our number one and we are no one's number one. And then we think about our kids and we think about how important it is to them at A certain stage, not that they're our number one, but that they're a number one to one of their peers. Right. And the focus shifts from, you know, I want to make sure you have your full light on me, mom or dad. No, now I care that so and so sees me as their number one. And then you said, okay, well, maybe not number one, maybe number five or number ten. Right. Like, and I so appreciated that because there are times when I feel like number one and then often not at all. And I have watched my own kids struggle. And there's that question, who's your best friend? Do you have a best friend? What happened to your best friend? How do we frame for kids how we see ourselves in relationship to other people, mattering in relationship to other people without hanging their whole sense of self worth on how they're perceived by others or how they perceive themselves to be perceived by others?

Jenny Berhenni Wallace (29:02)

Here's one way that I've talked about it with my kids that I have. I have so many friends that are really like top 10 for me and that I am top 10 for them. And it's very disorienting for me. My sort of number one was my friend Katie, who passed away two years ago and she was my number one for 30 years. And I will say that with grief, losing your number one friend, it is really unsettling and I'm still coping with it. It's still not. It's two years later and I'm still struggling with it. I think the idea of instead of being someone's number one is the idea that there are people in your life who prioritize you in small ways. To me, that's more important than being someone's number one and to giving people grace and giving friends grace and giving our busy friends grace, that we can't always be top of mind. We can't always be a priority to them. But there are ways that our kids can do this and that we can do this. That we can let the important people in our life know that they matter to us. And that is mattering is in the details. And so it is, you know when you're out walking and you see a cute dog that you think your friend would love, you take a quick picture and you say, made me think of you. Or you are, you know, in an airport and their favorite snack is in the store, made me think of you. So these little moments where we say, you are top of mind and we can keep people, we can keep many people top of mind. And just in these small little Moments. I'll give you one little example. So I was giving a keynote at a National Teachers association conference and a teacher was being presented the award by his colleagues. But what made him tear up was the present that his colleagues gave him alongside the award, which was a gigantic jar of M&Ms. Because that is his favorite snack. That's his 3:30 snack. He gets cranky when there aren't any M and Ms. Left. And so they gave it to him. And it was, I see you, I know you. Your interests, your tastes, your cravings, your quirks are worth remembering to me. And so we can do that with many friends. It doesn't have to be just one friend.

Vanessa (31:24)

Can we talk a little bit about trusted adults with each other? Sort of along these same lines? You write a lot about the importance of adult friendship and trusted relationships. And Vanessa just described sort of this moment with kids where, you know, you move down the rung with them. Can you talk a little bit about how it is important, why it is important for adults to matter with each other and how they can accomplish that, how they can achieve that when maybe they're being pulled in all these different directions.

Jenny Berhenni Wallace (32:01)

So all of the research on resilience points to the fact that yes, our kids need a sturdy adult to thrive, but sturdy adults need sturdy adults too to keep them sturdy. And I knew this intuitively as a young mother. I have many friends who didn't have children, some friends who didn't get married. And I prioritized them, you know, and I was living in London with my first two, but we had conversations twice a week on the phone. We kept in touch. To me, that is what gave me the energy and the mental bandwidth to be that support system for my kids. When we were living in London and we had no other family or friends around, we were sort of doing it on our own. I understand when people are working and have children and are being pulled in a million directions, why friendships go on the back of burner. But I'm here to tell you, take them off the back burner. If there's anything you get out of this conversation, it's that you need them not just for your own mental health, but for the well being of the people in your home. And it doesn't require tons of together time to build these kind of strong nourishing relationships. Research out of the Mayo Clinic that looked at busy physician mothers, so busy physicians at the Mayo Clinic who were also parents, they found that they only needed one hour a week of deliberate time with friends to feel seen and heard and supported. That was enough to give them the resilience they needed to be the doctors at work and to come home and be the first responder to their kids. And what is it about that one hour a week? What it was, I believe, about the one hour a week was not just feeling seen and heard like we do for our kids, which is important. It was being prioritized. It was that despite how busy we are, you are going to be my priority. You and these five other women for one hour a week.

Vanessa (34:00)

And I'll just chime in and say, when I read about that study, the thing that struck me is physicians know they matter, right? So they matter to their patients. And in the generic context of mattering, this is not an issue for them. And yet that data was amazing because what it showed is there are different kinds of mattering, right? And just because everyone needs you and depends upon you doesn't mean it fills your cup, that your cup gets filled other ways, which was just. It's really, really powerful. I'll also add, as the one empty nester on this podcast, that building those bonds with people who are important to you, if when your family and your household structure shifts and you haven't done that, that's okay, but you're about to do it big time. And my college roommates and I were pretty good about connecting with each other over the years, but not great. As we have all moved into this new stage of life, we have become acutely better at it. And the other day I called one of my college roommates and I was driving in la, which can be an endless activity, and I called her for 15 minutes, and after 15 minutes, she was in the middle of a story, and I was like, okay, just full disclosure. I was calling you on my drive, and now I'm here and I have to get off the phone. And she was like, I get to be your drive person. And she said, I do this with my sister and I need more people to do this with. And so make me your drive person. Like, call me and talk to me for 15 minutes about tiny little things, because that's going to reconnect us in a way that if we don't have an hour. And I was like, oh, it's a whole new world of mattering.

Kara (35:57)

We'll be right back. But first, a word from our sponsors.

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Vanessa (36:32)

Your planet is now marked for death.

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Jenny Berhenni Wallace (36:40)

We will pick as a family.

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Jenny Berhenni Wallace (36:58)

What time has it been?

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It's clobber time,

Carly (37:04)

so let's borrow that car. I want to take that. Because those are people who at certain points of your life, have been your touchstones and then in moments have not. And I want to tie that, Jenny, to a term you use in the book that circles back to what Kara just said, which is that we need cornermen. And can you describe what a cornerman is for those of us not into boxing lingo? And then let's talk about why they're so important, right? Why Kara felt it was so important. In the book, you use the example of an extraordinary young man and his journey, but it gets at the. At the point that these people can come in and out of our lives, right? That, like, we get prioritized and we prioritize them. So talk a little bit about what a. What a cornerman is.

Jenny Berhenni Wallace (37:52)

So a cornerman. And I don't watch boxing either. I learned about it through this gentleman that I interviewed for the chapter. He was a boxer. And he talked about when you're in the ring, right, the spotlight is on the boxer, but there's also someone in the corner who is there to encourage you through setbacks, who sees your weaknesses, who has the courage to call them out to hold you accountable, to stitch you up when your eye is getting beaten in. And that cornermen are critical for our own growth. But here's the other thing. Being a cornerman is just as critical for our own growth. So one of the essential ingredients for. For mattering. There are a few ingredients that kind of build up the sense of mattering in us. One of them that is about the corner man is called ego extension. And I love this idea. It's, like, very wonky. But think about it. It's extending your ego so that it can. Like right now, you can't see me because we're on a podcast, but I'm extending my Ego. Physically, I'm pulling my arms out so that I can encompass the ego of the people I care mean by this, that when they experience a joy, I can feel their joy too. When they experience a setback, I can feel their setback too. I'm not telling people to become despondent and to feel other people's pain. Most people who are going through something hard do not actually want you to feel their pain. What they want is for you to help them through it. And this idea of ego extension, this interdependence is really what it is, is beaten out of us. In our zero sum cult, we are often conditioned, particularly as women, to be told that somebody else's gain is your loss. That's such bs it's just not true. There is enough success and joy to go around. And what I try to teach my kids is that if you want to double your joy, you feel the joy of the people that you care about. And in order for you to really feel that joy, you need to be investing in those people. You need to be saying, tell me about that interview. Do you want to prep? Do you want to go through it? Tell me about that goal. Tell me about how you're training for the marathon. Do you want me to run with you on Saturday? So really taking the time to invest emotionally, sometimes physically, in our friendships is how we can build that kind of ego extension, that investment.

Carly (40:28)

I mean, what's funny, Jenny, is listeners will not know this, but you and me and Kara and Eliza Pressman. Actually, I didn't even think about it until you started saying that. Have a little club of. It started when we all wrote our last books and we each had books, Cara. And ours came out in the middle and yours was first and Eliza's was last. And we sort of passed along wisdom and contacts, lists and support, and we were each other's cornermen. And then, you know, we've been doing it now again along with this book and God willing, if I ever write my book, and we'll convince Kara to write another book and Eliza's writing another book. So it's like, I mean, we always say, you know, we're all boats rise kind of people, which we do because it's the right thing to do. But also we didn't think about the sort of, like what we gain from it. We always think about what we give. But in our sort of little. Our little club, it's been really amazing. And your success is our joy, and we know vice versa. And it's an incredible. It's an incredible thing. And for people listening who think, oh, I don't know, we consciously did it. We made time. We have to set zooms. We have to send calendar invites. It doesn't always happen organically. Sometimes this work takes work. Like, you have to deliberately do it, and then it gets easier. But in busy lives, sometimes you have to prioritize it and make it happen.

Vanessa (42:07)

Vanessa, can I just chime in and say I thought about it the entire time I read this book?

Kara (42:11)

Oh, did you?

Vanessa (42:13)

Because, Jenny, I don't know if you even remember this, but the last one we did, we all got on Zoom together, and you kicked it off and you said, guys, I need help. And then you laid out what you needed, and I was so impressed. I was like, oh, we have leveled up. Like, this is how a person asks for help. And then I read this book, and then I was like, now I know why. She's a, like, ninja level. She has this ability, so mattering and understanding. Mattering, I believe, actually gives you the ability to also recognize what you need.

Jenny Berhenni Wallace (42:54)

So I used to think before researching mattering for the last seven years that asking for help was an imposition, that asking for help was a burden. It was selfish. You don't need to ask for help. We are helpers as women. We are helpers. We are not help seekers. And what I realized in the research is that asking for help actually can be seen as an act of generosity. And let me explain why. Because when I don't reach out for help, not only do I deny myself the help I need, I also deny my friend the chance of being a helper, sending the signal that I trust your guidance, I trust your wisdom. I depend on you. You matter to me enough for me to overcome any shyness and sort of embrace the courage of asking for help. So that has not always been true of me. That came true. I came to that realization through the research of mattering.

Carly (43:55)

Right. You literally built the skill of learning how to employ mannering. One thing I was thinking about is sometimes people seek attunement connection in ways that are less appealing or less obvious. Right? So our kids sometimes will behave. They might be annoying, they might act out, they might be aggressive. And underneath it, it's them seeking affirmation or connection to feel like they matter. The same with colleagues or friends who may be having a tough time, who may not feel the right to say, I need help. I need support. I'm struggling here. And so it shows up in other ways. How do we cut through the surface, Jenny? How do we get past that sort of initial to be able to see what's underneath, what people are really asking for.

Jenny Berhenni Wallace (44:48)

I will tell you, once you see the world through the lens of mattering, you can't unsee it. So even strangers I see on the street, incivility on the road, rudeness, people acting out. What I've come to see it is that they are not necessarily acting out. They're reaching out. They are asking in their own confused way, do you see me? Do you hear me? Do I matter? And what I've tried to do. And I don't live this every day, but this is certainly a goal of mine, since researching this book is to see everyone I meet, friends, even strangers, imagine them wearing an invisible sign that says, tell me, do I matter? And we all have the opportunity to answer that silent question with kindness and understanding. And even when they are acting out, being able to see the person behind the behavior. I mean, when you know that mattering is what drives all of human behavior. So when you feel like you matter, you show up to the world in positive ways. You want to contribute, you want to engage, you. When you are made to feel like you don't matter, you can withdraw, become anxious and depressed, or you can lash out in anger in an effort to assert your mattering. That when you understand that it is a fundamental human need, not a nice, to have that when it goes unmet, people suffer and will do extreme things to show the world they matter. So I think this is a little controversial, what I'm about to say, and I say this in the book, that people who go on to commit heinous crimes are not necessarily born that way. They are going through the world feeling invisible, unseen, unheard, like they don't matter. And they act desperately. So people will act in desperate ways. And I think as a society, we are courting dangerous behavior when we let people go through life feeling like they don't matter.

Kara (46:57)

Yeah.

Vanessa (46:58)

And you know, some of it is that we lack the tools in the toolbox to show people. It feels like to show someone they matter is going to take such a heavy lift. And what you have done is laid out a hundred light lift paths. It does not take an hour, it can take 30 seconds. It's what you described at the top, the snap of a picture. This makes me think of you, right, Grabbing something extra when you're at the market and bringing it home because you know someone likes it. Like, whatever. The thing is, there's so many easy ways to show someone.

Jenny Berhenni Wallace (47:41)

Here's one way that I think the world would be so much better if we did this. And it's small. When you ask someone for advice, when you ask for their help, close the loop. Listen to their advice. If you take it, circle back and say, because of you, I did this, your advice was great. Or if it didn't work out, still circle back. Just close the loop. We are so busy in this world. I don't know if it's that we're hyper independent and we don't wanna feel like we' relying on other people or if it's just that we're too busy and we forget to close the loop. But that loop is what lets someone know they matter.

Vanessa (48:18)

It's so interesting. It's your firefighter example, right?

Jenny Berhenni Wallace (48:22)

It's.

Vanessa (48:23)

That's what changed everything for the firefighters. And when, you know, when you described it, there are so many people along the chain who help other people who never know. The firefighters didn't know when they took the person and handed them off to the, to the paramedics. The paramedics drop the person at the er, then they don't know. The ER doctors send the patient upstairs to the floor. Then they don't know. There are so many steps in that chain where closing the loop would, you know, you can view it as a learning, like, oh, what could I have done better or differently to make the outcome different. Or you can view it through the lens of mattering. And I think it's beautiful, beautiful thing to talk about it through that lens of mattering. Can we talk a little bit about grieving and mattering? Circle back to that a little bit. You talk about it in the book. You talk about the loss of your dad. And it was as you were finishing the book itself, talk about the intersection of grief and mattering. And what did you learn about mattering from grieving? What did you learn about grieving from mattering?

Jenny Berhenni Wallace (49:37)

Yeah. The last two years have been a woozy. I lost my best friend, I lost my mother in law. Suddenly perfect health, died suddenly and my dad died suddenly. He was declining with Parkinson's, but it was still very sudden. What I learned about mattering, well, first from my dad and I would say my mother in law and Katie, all three of these people lived a life of mattering, very much so my dad, there's a little story that I tell at the, which is just such a funny thing, but it just makes me smile. When he retired, he made a really conscious choice to continue to matter in the world. He had worked at Exxon for, I don't know, 40 or 50 years and he retired and he. Everywhere he went, he would make a point to create a kind of little mattering space. So there was this place that he went every week for lunch. And he got to know the servers. It was a casual restaurant. He got to know the servers. Really, everywhere he went, he got to know people. He would ask them about their. He would ask them about school, if they were going, you know, taking classes at college. And there was a period of time where he wasn't going in on a weekly basis because my grand. His mother in law was sick and he and my mother were helping. And when he went back and told them about it, they presented him the next day with a card saying, you know, we are so sorry about the loss of your mother in law. And they. Each person in this fashion casual restaurant, took the time to sign it, to write a personalized note. I just was so amazed that you could make someone feel like they matter in a short exchange once a week, by following up, by learning their name, by smiling at them, by seeing their humanity. And my dad was able to do this in all areas of his life. And when he died, friends from high school reached out and talked about advice he once gave them. I read the online obituary with people from high school saying they wish they had stayed in touch, that he was always so kind and the person to always include somebody at a table. Never one to make someone feel left out. My dad did know he mattered in his life, my sister and I. And I feel grateful for this. And I will say to anyone else who has aging parents to tell them while they are alive why they matter to you. And if you feel uncomfortable saying it out loud, put it in a card. My dad saved every card I ever sent him over the years, and my mother gave them to me. It was next to his bedside. So even if you're not saying it out loud all the time, make points to tell people why they matter to you. So what I learned is tell people while they're alive why they matter. And guess what? That sense of mattering, it is part of their legacy. It's part of all of our legacies. Mattering doesn't end when we die. The ripples continue. They continue to ripple out in my dad's grandchildren and the people that he has met. And so mattering outlives us.

Carly (52:42)

That's so beautiful, Jenny. It really is. The book is incredibly moving. And I found myself ugly crying on an airplane in close proximity to other people who probably thought I was having a really bad day. But actually, I was having a great day. I was having a great day reading your work. And I will say on behalf of me and Cara that we are so proud of the work you are doing and so happy to get to be cornermen in your life and so grateful to have you as a cornerman in our lives. And and we've learned a lot from you. From collaborating with you and reading your work and watching you walk the walk, not just talk the talk. So grateful we know this book will bring lots of meaning to many, many people and so happy to be a tiny part of that.

Jenny Berhenni Wallace (53:41)

Well, thank you both so much. I am so grateful to have you both in my life.

Carly (53:45)

Thank you so much for the listening. You can email us with questions, feedback or Episode requests@podcast.com if you want to

Vanessa (53:56)

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Kara (54:05)

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Carly (54:09)

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