A (2:56)

And I'm going to throw in a plug here for those of you who are members of our hub, that a lot of these themes come up not just in the content that we post in there, but very specifically in the lessons that are part of the less awkward university course. You will see a through line where you can get some skills based learning around exactly this type of content. So if you find it interesting Pop over there and check it out.

B (3:27)

Enjoy. Julie and Hillary, we are so happy to have you here to talk about things like disgust and disappointment and anger. You know, all the like, really easy emotions we as parents experience. We're keeping it like, simple and uncomplicated today with you both. So it is one of the hardest things as a parent to recognize the really crappy things we feel about our kids in reaction to our kids. And your book, Parents have Feelings Too is like an amazing walk through all of these really complex emotions. I want to start with disgust because it's a biggie. And frankly, that was like what hooked me when I got the email about your book. I was like, oh, this is amazing because Cara and I talk endlessly about our kids grossing us out and like their rooms and how frustrating it is and how like yucky it feels and disrespectful. We actually did a whole podcast episode just on our kids gross rooms. So let's start there. Like, what are some common ways that you see that parents respond to their kids disgusting habits and send their kids the wrong message and accidentally shame them?

C (5:03)

Things that oftentimes I hear from parents and again, like, parents don't even realize maybe that they're inadvertently shaming their kids. You're so smelly. You're such a mess. I can't believe you're going to leave the house looking that way. Are you sure that, you know, there isn't a dead animal in your bedroom? It kind of stinks. You know, that's not okay to say.

B (5:26)

Yeah, I might have said that at some point.

C (5:30)

And even really little kids, right? Like, I remember when my daughter was like really young, my husband, he was just like disgusted by like baby food. It was just like he had such an aversive reaction, you know, but like, even comments like that, I mean, to a toddler like, oh, you're just such a mess, or just making a kind of a face. Disgust prompts us to make, you know, a certain face. We scrunch up our nose. We're like, so I think there are a lot of things that we say that are just commonplace and we don't even realize sometimes how they land with

B (6:01)

our kids, you know, so we're going to get to the open hearted responses that you offer up throughout the book and they're wonderful, wonderful reframes. But before we get there, I just want to like talk people off the ledge a little bit about how disgust is actually a core emotion, how it has serves value and purpose in our lives. And like, it's okay. That we feel disgusted. There's, like, a reason for it. Let's just, like, start there.

D (6:33)

Can I just back up a little bit and. You bet.

A (6:36)

Okay.

D (6:37)

And just say that. About 20 years ago, having had the best education in psychology and medicine and the body, I went to an academic lecture all about emotions. And it completely changed my life because I didn't know there was anything to learn about emotions. And I also didn't know that I was responding to myself and my children in ways that were hurtful. And I may not have even registered it. We do these things sort of without paying attention and being attuned. So the idea about disgust is that we are all wired to have this emotion. It's one of the first emotions that evolved, and it's to protect us, to let us know when something is, like, rotted or poisonous berry, you know, just something that goes in through our five senses, right? We see something disgusting, we smell something disgusting, it hits us in the middle of the brain where there's no conscious control. Then it activates the body for a survival response, which is to back away, to recoil, and to get this look of disgust. Nothing wrong with that, except when we bring in another human being, whether it's an adult or an infant or a little kid or a teenager. And the way we respond, depending on the kid, could evoke a sense of shame that if we do once, is no big deal. But if we're constantly shaming our kid, they become withdrawn. Shame is an emotion that everybody, I think, should be getting a lot of information about because it's insidious, we don't talk about it. And even talking about shame can cause the feeling of shame. People don't want to discuss it, but there's this kind of connection between showing disgust and having somebody have a shame response. And that's really what we are worried about. Kind of a repeated shaming through our disgusted look. So it's just so helpful for parents to at least have a basic understanding so they can work with disgust in themselves and also notice that if they do want to correct something, because we do want to teach our kids how to be socially acceptable so that they're not banished or humiliated out in the world unnecessarily, that we can stay attuned.

A (9:14)

But I want to ask, where is the line? I'll start with? Every day when I was seeing patients in the office, parents would come in with the complaint that their kids were disgusting. And sometimes it was meant in jest. In fact, I would say, like, at least half the Time it was sort of, they're kind of disgusting now. But I know it's my job to help them get over that hump so that they can be social animals who, who can circulate in this world and be accepted. And so I'm going to teach them how to take a shower or, you know, when Vanessa and I laugh about our kids rooms, it's because, you know, nine times out of 10, there is legitimately something disgusting in there. There's like a plate from breakfast three days ago and you're going, what? You know. So where is the line between shaming them and a little bit of joyful teasing, prodding to get the lesson across? Because you make the really good point that the core emotion comes from an important place. This was a safety response, right? But there's a lot of Runway between that and kind of what people. What a lot of parents will do, I will often do, which is ribbing in order to get your kid to the point where they can then learn the skill or do the thing.

D (10:44)

There's a slogan that we use in this type of therapy that I do called aedp, which is it's not what happens and it's what happens next. So it doesn't really matter what you say or decide to do. Hopefully there's a backdrop of being kind and caring, that this is another human being, no matter what the age, that has their own feelings. But you make a joke and then you as a parent, what I would say, what I've learned to do, is to notice what happens next. And you can look at the nonverbal behavior to see hurt or I get it, mom. So you're really looking for the completed interaction, what you say in your natural style and then what happens next? I would say even if the child is humiliated. I remember when I was a teenager, my mom had to call out that I needed to shower, that there was like a BO emanating from me and it was mortifying. But I could feel that it was coming from a caring place and not a desire to humiliate, which sadly happens all too much where there is sort of a lack of sensitivity, right?

B (11:52)

So, Julie, let's take a scenario for a test drive, taking Hillary's exact example, right? Because kids in puberty and adolescents, they have like a whole set of hygiene changes and routines that they need to institute. There's a million things they have to do to take care of their sweatier, oilier, stinkier body that they didn't have to do before. And like that needs scaffolding, right? They don't, like, figure it out overnight. I mean, maybe you guys had kids who figured it out overnight. My kids. It took, like, several years and many, many conversations. So if we think about that place, Hillary, that you mentioned, right. You knew your mom's comments came from a place of care. You could feel the urgency, but you could also sense it wasn't intended to shame you. So, Julie, give us some guidance. Like, what would that sound like with a. I don't know, a fifth grader who really is like just an onslaught of BO has presented itself, and you want to make sure they, you know, handle that and improve their hygiene. But you also, like, you know, it's a long road and you don't want to shame them now and then have the next decade be really tough.

C (13:07)

Yeah, I think just kind of anchoring it in connection, in compassion, even saying something and keeping it light, touch. Hey, can I let you know something? I know, like, your body's starting to change, and that just means we need to shower a little bit more frequently.

B (13:21)

And what if they're like, I hate

A (13:25)

showering, I hate showering.

C (13:27)

I would do that, like, right back at them. I'd be like, I know what? I so get it. I remember being there. And you know what? The shower doesn't even need to be a long one. And then I try to see what happens next if they're like, you know, you see the relief in their body or if they start to get activated. Oh, mom, why do you have to say this? Oh, I don't want to talk about it. Be like, yeah, I know it's uncomfortable. I so get it. And, you know, I'm just letting you know so you can go out there in the world, go in the classroom and, you know, be. I mean, I wouldn't say be acceptable in society, but you kind of get, you know, you get what I mean,

B (14:01)

you just think that, but you don't say it right.

A (14:03)

Yeah, Julie, you use the word we. I'm curious whether both or either of you find it more effective to make we statements or you statements when you're calling something out.

C (14:15)

I mean, for me, I think it really depends for each parent because it's going to depend on the connection and the relationship you have with your child. In general, though, I think a we statement, it shows kind of a joining of togetherness. I've been there, too, but without kind of like harping on your kid about, you know, oh, gosh, I had to, you know, climb five hills and walk five miles to school and, you know, yeah, exactly. To take the shower. I think you especially around sensitive topics maybe you know, especially related to kind of things that kids are sensitive to their bodies, changes that are going on. You can feel maybe a little bit like accusatory and make them kind of back up a little bit more. So I think a we statement or even an I statement can work better.

A (15:00)

Hillary, you're nodding your head like we are in agreement.

D (15:03)

Yes, we are in agreement. And I like the even addition of the I statement. And you know, I remember this when I was younger and it's just something that we have to do. You know, another thing is to be frank that people do judge out in the world for better and for worse. And why put yourself in a position of, of that kind of thing? And that's why I wanted just to let you know. And you know, I, I also think that it would be common for a kid to be annoyed about that. And so the next phase is not to take the bait, to allow because when you shame someone, it does make them angry because it hurts. And so there's that. When we were talking earlier about defenses that, you know, not to engage in a fight after that, just to walk away. You've done your, you've given your message.

A (15:55)

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B (18:12)

and what about the kid who's like, I don't care. Like, it doesn't matter to me. And you're not entirely sure if they actually don't care or if that's a defense of their own. Like, what's it? What's a sort of open way to handle that reaction when in your head you're like, dude, no one's gonna sit next to you at lunch if you smell the way you smell on a daily basis.

D (18:34)

I mean, for me, I think I would either just ignore it and see what happens again.

B (18:39)

Just see what happens next. Like, see if the behavior changes.

D (18:43)

Yeah, I think the old me might have asked more questions. The older I get and the wiser I get as a result of getting older, the more I believe in less. Less is more. Less is more. Sip and sip it, sip it and wait and see.

B (18:58)

Let's talk about disgust as it relates to our kids changing bodies, the way they appear. And I say that and it might be jarring if people haven't heard our episode with Zoe Bisping about body image. Zoe's a therapist in New York who specializes in body image and eating disorders. She has a wonderful account called My Body Positive. And she gets really real about stuff. And one of the things she talks about is disgust when you look at your kid's changing body and it's like not what you thought your kid's changing body was gonna be like, either because of weight or size or shape or acne or any of the things that happen to tweens and teens. And I would love to hear from you all and Julie, maybe You can go first. How do we manage that? Because that's really about our stuff. It's really not about our kids stuff. And so it's not about how are we in conversation with them. It's about, like, dealing with our own crap. So what's your guidance? What's your guidance there?

C (20:06)

I think that's such a great point, Vanessa. I think when that comes up for us, it's bringing up some emotion, probably even from our own adolescence, something that we went through that was uncomfortable. Maybe it was a time when we were made fun of, you know, by our peers, or maybe we were shamed by our parents, or maybe, you know, we struggled with our own body image. And usually it's because we don't want our kids to ever feel the way that we felt when something was painful. But it's so important to be in touch with that emotion so we can work through it on our own. Otherwise, it could unknowingly kind of, you know, come out sideways and, like, trying to direct our kids what they should do with their body, you know, exercise or. Not that it's wrong to eat healthy or anything, but maybe taking that, you know, kind of an or two too far. So really, maybe even asking a question, what about my child's body change is bringing up this emotion within me? Is this in some way related to a painful experience in my own past, especially my own adolescence, you know, kind of shining the light on ourselves?

A (21:14)

Hillary, let me ask you to take that coin and flip it over and go on the other side and think about the parent who doesn't really have very much baggage around this, but their kid is having a big response. That's a similar mismatch, just in a different direction. So what advice do you have for parents who don't understand why their kids see certain things as a big deal when they never did?

D (21:44)

Yeah, it's a good question and a hard question. I don't know if there's any right answer except to hold that stance. Those seas that you read about of compassion and connection and curiosity and staying calm in ourselves. So really kind of maybe not even saying anything or reflecting on something about ourselves, how we felt when we were younger, it's so understandable, and it's temporary, and it's hard, really. Just giving a lot of empathy and anything you want to talk about and share with me as your mother, I am open to hearing. Yeah.

A (22:26)

I mean, Vanessa does this wonderful thing when we're on stage and in our curriculum, it's sprinkled throughout, where she will acknowledge that something that doesn't seem like it should be a big deal. And crushes are a perfect example of this. A first crush, right? It's a big deal to them and so sort of honoring that lived experience. But you know, that said all of the adults who care about kids, whether they're parents or family members or trusted adults, I think they're all sort of very conscious of not overstepping a line, not pushing a kid too far one way or too far another. And what I hear from both of you, and it's such a breath of fresh air, frankly, is less is more. There are ways to kind of remove yourself so they can have their own lived experience. And kind of the growing up, we just, we keep them as safe as we can, as healthy as we can. Listen to them, love them. But like, that's good, right? We're good if we sit there in that spot.

B (23:42)

So, Cara, let's take the less is more concept and translate it to another biggie for parents. It's another D word. Not the D word you just thought of when I said D word, disappointment. Because, I mean, I don't know about you all, but not a single one of my children turned out the way I expected them to. And I love them and I'm proud of them and they're amazing in their own ways and they're also disappointing in other ways because hot take. They're imperfect. And when we picture our children, who they're going to become, we have this, you know, unbelievable image of, of that, of course, like we are so deeply imperfect. God knows how we come up with that vision for ourselves, but how do we, if we, if we follow the less is more approach, if we follow the sort of open hearted, non shaming approach and we look at our kids and we're like, what? How do we handle that? Hillary, why don't you start? How do we handle disappointment with academics or athletics or friendships or a million ways in which our kids may be different than we expected?

D (24:59)

This is a bitter pill to swallow, but it really goes back to the parents really understanding this is about their expectations, their fantasies. This child didn't ask to be born, but was born a completely unique human being that if you're lucky, will be like you as a parent. And often it has.

B (25:22)

Or if you're unlucky, they'll be like

C (25:24)

you as a parent.

D (25:26)

Most parents want the familiarity of recognizing themselves and their children. It gives them some, for lack of a better word, that kind of like, it's like a, I don't want to use the word narcissism, but the narcissistic gratification, that's normal.

B (25:39)

But it's so funny because I find it harder. Like, I recognize myself in some of my kids, but also it makes it almost harder, particularly as they get older. Like, I have one kid who's so different from me and was so different from the beginning that I so early on recognized, like, oh, this is a separate human being who's, like, on his own journey. And I quickly was able to separate myself. The ones who are more like me. I feel like it's. It's harder to see them. It was harder to see them as independent human beings. And there is a narcissism in it. I mean, not to get, you know, pathological here, but I would be curious, you know, to hear from you guys what's in that, because, you know, none of us are narcissists, but we might. There might be an element of wanting to see ourselves or not see ourselves in our kids.

D (26:32)

I think there's always whatever that sticky thing is that between parent and child that you can't. You can't be objective. It's so great. My husband and I always joke that it's so great we have. We blended a family. So whenever I want to figure out how to respond to my own children, I think about how I respond to my stepchildren.

B (26:50)

That is so good. That is so good. And what are the qualities of the response that you notice that you would respond to a step kid with that you wouldn't with your own kid? Like, what are the qualities you carry over into that normal, normal response?

D (27:09)

No, not full of that gooey, sticky stuff of over investment and just taking things personally. It just. It's so hard. And this is just. It must be. Of course, it's wired in on purpose so that we can be glued to our children in the way that helps them survive, but just for a second to go back to disappointment. So it's really processing. We think about disappointment as a mix of sadness and anger and maybe some shame mixed in. And to really learn how to be with those feelings in a compassionate and loving way in oneself, like, really being able to recognize when you get that jolt of disappointment and like, then zipping it, that pause. Right. I'm sure you've talked about many times on the show. And then going inward and tending to yourself, which is not easy, because you have to sort of believe first that you don't have a right to your disappointment and you don't have a right to cajole and coerce your child to be what you need them to be. And that, again, goes back to narcissism in a way.

A (28:17)

Although I think it's also important to honor all the different family types. I mean, just as you did kids who are adopted, kids who are the product of sperm donors or egg donors. And what that term narcissism means in that context looks and feels very different. And this disappointment thread comes up very, very often, especially among families where there's adoption, because sometimes it gets internalized by the kids, as I am not genetically related. And that is, you know, we can laugh about it in the context of, ha, ha, ha, they don't get my bad things. But for those kids who are. Who really many of them who have existential questions about not just like, why am I here, but why am I actually here in this particular familial configuration? You know, it strikes me that there are lots of layers depending upon family structure. Julie, you're vigorously nodding. I'm wondering what your thoughts are.

C (29:23)

I could weigh in and probably talk for hours on this topic. As an adoptee myself, I think it's a unique family dynamic oftentimes, and I won't say all the time, but oftentimes in adoption, for the adoptive family and always for the adoptee, there's loss on both ends before the family ever comes to be. And in that loss are emotions. You know, in that loss sometimes are traumas. And if we don't have a space to really have those emotions witnessed and feel supported by another. It's just almost kind of in some ways human nature that an adoptive, you know, parent who doesn't share that genetic with, you know, those genes with their child might have more of an investment, even unknowingly, of wanting their child to be like them. You know, for example, like, my mom worked as a nurse and she worked in healthcare. And without even realizing it, like when I was about the age of 17, the age my daughter is now, she kept coming up with all of these careers for me. She's like, I really think, you know, you should be a pharmacist. Well, let me news alert. I am not good with math or science, and I do not think I'd be a good pharmacist. So it's like, I don't really think, you know, I'd be a good pharmacist. But that's just, like, one example of a way, you know, there's an investment maybe of wanting our kids to. To be like us. Wanting it. Yeah.

A (30:48)

Yeah. It's personal for Me too. My two older brothers were both adopted at birth and it. And I was not. And it has. On this particular topic and around disappointment. I mean, we've had 50 plus years of conversation about all of the feelings that register for them versus for me. And frankly, sometimes they feel like they're on the losing end of the conversation, and sometimes they really feel like they're on the winning end of the conversation, depending upon what it is that is being reflected in your personality or your life path. But I just say it because I think we as a society are so good at using the verb parenting, which I mean, I personally think should be banned at this point because I think there are so many better words to use that describe what you're trying to do to love and support and all the things for these kids. But these core emotions that you've identified we attribute to parenting. And yet what you write about in your book and what we're talking about here, they apply so much more broadly. Right. There are just so many. And so I just think this is a good example. I would love to move to another emotion if we can. I would love to talk about anger. Regardless of the structure of the home, kids can be really infuriating. I mean, you know, and sometimes it is in service to the job that they have. Their job is to push up against our boundaries. Right. And that, that is infuriating when it puts them in a position of unsafety. Like, it's very simple. The flip side of that is the worry that, like chronic worry. Why do we collectively have trouble handling anger or have a conflict with conflict?

D (32:49)

I mean, anger is my favorite emotion really, to talk about and to teach people because it gets us all into so many predicaments. I think the main reason, and this is why I just, like, I've been passionate about sharing emotions. Education for the last 20 years is if you don't understand what anger is, you make it up in your head. This is this terrible thing that can make me do bad things, so I gotta squash it or I'm entitled to my anger. But when you understand the anger from a scientific perspective, just like in high school, we learn we have a heart and a lung and a pancreas, and, you know, emotions get us into trouble every single day. It's great to learn a few things. So, you know, one of the main things that's so helpful that for me to learn is that I was not bad for having anger. It was a core emotion, sometimes used defensively. But if we just talk about it in this capacity It's a core emotion that we all need so that we know when we're being violated, attacked, abused, hurt. And like all core emotions, it's an entirely internal process. I think people confuse the core emotion of anger with the actions that anger pulls for. And anger pulls for us to be mean and nasty and aggressive and oftentimes to be physically hurtful. And if we don't know the difference and we can't work with our anger, we're really at the mercy of it and like puppets on a string. So I think that's one of the main reasons, if we all got educated, with a basic education on what anger is and these emotions in high school, we'd live in a very different world. It would completely pivot.

B (34:31)

So one of us on this podcast might have grown up in a household where anger was not an acceptable emotion. So, you know, luckily I had the self awareness to be like, yeah, no, I think I deserve to be angry. I think it's really okay. But when it comes to parenting, right, like, I'm fine with feeling angry at siblings or friends or some jerk on the, on the road who cuts me off, but when it comes to being angry at my kids, as Kara said earlier, it feels loaded. It feels not okay. It feels like that's one place we're not supposed to get angry, is at our children. Can you talk, Hillary, for a minute about why it's okay? Meaning, like, obviously, as you said, it's a core emotion, but also how we can harness our anger in constructive ways. Not in a sort of scorched earth way, but in a way that's kind of data and information for us as we go forward.

D (35:33)

Yeah, and that's the whole crux of the biscuit, is to be able to recognize and validate our anger and then use it in constructive ways. So an example of that would be to not just yell at a kid. You're, you know, this is where the cursing rule came in.

A (35:50)

So I'm not going to say that

D (35:51)

you're a stupid piece of blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

B (35:55)

Well done, Hillary. I would not have done nearly as well there. That's from a die hard New York City girl. Totally.

D (36:02)

Yeah. So like, let's say your kid, you know, calls you stupid or, you know, you're the worst parent in the world and you don't know what you're talking about, and then you feel that heat and that desire to get into a power struggle and to yell back. I would now, and this happens still all the time with my kids. I notice that I'm angry and then I want to make a decision. Once I try to know what the anger is, where do I feel it, what's it telling me to try to like in a split second. With practice you can do this. Learn a little bit about the anger and then keep in mind what's my long term goal with my children is to feel connected and have a loving relationship. So how do I want to use this anger? Maybe I won't take the bait and I'll know I'll have empathy again and I'll know that something must have happened at school and I might just move the anger aside, access those that my connection and calm and just say, you know, ouch, did something. Are you okay? You know, obviously you're in a terrible mood or I may say something. There's no right answers here, as you probably guess. You know, I get that you're angry. I just don't want you to talk to me that way. You're not exploding. Just like you said, you're not exploding the anger out. There's a thought process after you work with your anger internally. The last step is always to bring logic online and to think through the complexity of the situation. Now this may take years and years to master, but the pause or the understanding and the compassion for oneself that the anger is just being ignited and the pause to say, okay, let's not make things worse.

A (37:44)

One of the things I appreciate is that you did not suggest flipping the naming of anger into disappointment. And it's such a common thing, right? Like when someone's really angry and what are they taught to do? They're taught to say to their kid, I'm so angry.

B (38:01)

I'm not angry. I'm just disappointed.

A (38:04)

And the truth is, no, you're angry, right? And it's its own core emotion. We'll be right back, but first, a word from our sponsors.

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B (38:47)

Julie, how long should anger last? I know that's a simplistic way of asking for a friend, a complicated question, but like sometimes our kids do things and it's not like, I just need five minutes and I'll be fine. It's like I'm up all night. I wake up tomorrow, I'm still Pissed off. Like, how do we manage anger when it doesn't sort of dissipate with a little bit of. Of time and space? What information is that telling us?

C (39:18)

I think that's such a great question. I think when anger is kind of lingering, it's like, is it coming up because we're actually also upset about something else from our own past that was angering or hurt, you know, that got triggered in whatever interaction we were having with our kid or is, you know, if we're still kind of stewing, you know, on whatever it is, what is it about that interaction with our kid? What's making it hard to kind of move through that? And it's just helpful then even to just ground in the body. I think, you know, come back to the. The four C's with the calm ground in the body and see if we can release the energy of that anger, you know, so it kind of has its release and doesn't maybe then grip at us so tightly.

B (40:06)

And if it's an ongoing issue, I'm thinking about, we hear from parents all the time about one sibling treating each other really unkindly on an ongoing basis. And yes, there could be, you know, oh, well, my brother was a jerk to me, and it could be bringing that up. But, like, when the behavior is sort of ongoing and the anger kind of gets reignited. So, like, you got an older kid who's just like, just dismissing or even cruel to a younger sibling, and it happens at dinner on a weekly basis, and you're sort of continually activated and angry because you've told this kid, hey, that's not okay, or that's unkind, or that's not how we speak to each other in this family. And it's like, it keeps going. And you guys will probably say, hey, there's probably something underneath that kid's behavior that you need to deal with. It's actually not about your anger. It's about what's going on with them. So feel free to give that answer. But I'm curious about sort of like perpetuating dynamics that make us angry.

C (41:06)

Yeah, I think if there's a perpetuating dynamic and it seems like it's a continual pain point, maybe that's a time also to kind of explore whether or not kind of some other types of support can be helpful. You know, I don't know, talking with your child's teacher or school counselor to see if this is coming up at school, is it connected with something else that's upsetting to them? And then it's Coming out in this aggressive behavior towards their sibling as maybe then a defense.

B (41:33)

Right.

C (41:33)

You know, is it time maybe to maybe talk with a therapist, seek out some family therapy?

A (41:39)

I mean, on a related note, these are core emotions that we've walked through. What's the best way to help kids learn? Right. We're talking about the adults in the situation. What's the best way to help kids learn to identify the naming and the value of these core emotions? And you know, the mantra that we will quote almost every podcast at this point because it's so good, is Eliza Pressman saying all feelings are welcome, all behaviors are not. Which goes to sort of the core emotions versus the actions. But like, how, how do we take these learnings that you've passed along so beautifully to adults and help them translate them down to kids?

D (42:22)

What I would say, I just have to laugh because so many people come, they, they read my first book on the change triangle, and they say, oh, I can't wait, I'm going to teach this to my kid. And I'm like, no, no, no, don't do that, don't do that. At best, your child is older. Leave it on the coffee table and with any luck, they'll pick it up.

B (42:42)

The. The reason we're laughing is because it's an amazing conceptual framework for understanding behavior and change. And Hillary and Julie get into it in this book as well. But it's highly conceptual and not for your fifth grader to understand why they're losing it at the dinner table. But I love the desire that those parents have to teach it to their kids. So, yeah, Hillary, I think your translation, your kids Cliff Notes notes version of it would be awesome here.

D (43:19)

Yeah, I think it's the parents modeling what it means to feel a feeling and channel it for good, to make space for it to take a breath even in front of your kid, to take a pause. Look, I'm really upset right now. I'm just gonna calm down, I'm gonna sleep on it and we'll talk about it in the morning. You're demonstrating not acting fast, not acting on emotions without a thoughtfulness. But I think if you allow these feelings in your children, that's what you do. So like so many families, let's say a child is sad. Let's talk about little boys who show sadness. And right away they're taught that that's not okay. And it may not be through a verbal lesson. It's not okay to feel sad. It may just be through the non verbal of kind of shutting it down, distracting Maybe the two parents talking within earshot, where the kid picks up the messages. So the message would be that you can't really be okay with other people's emotions until you're okay with your own. There's a direct correlation. So for parents to really get with the program that emotions are not weak, they're human. And to make space for emotions and to be patient and let someone not just sit there as somebody expresses and cries, there's usually like a two minute arc and then they feel better and then maybe the kid will talk more or want to play or something like that. So I think it's modeling what it is, how you want your kids to be. And the best thing in life is for them to be able to. I'm now defining mental health as the ability to experience the seven core emotions with minimal amounts of inhibition and defensiveness so that you can make use of them. And that doesn't mean it's an excuse. I think people get frightened of emotions education because they think that means it's an excuse to use emotions in destructive ways. It's not. We always want to have a balance between thinking and feeling. They're both data sets for how to meet the challenges of life. But if we push down emotions, you know, it doesn't work out well because makes us anxious and depressed or are defensive in ways that are harmful.

B (45:35)

I love. I keep coming back to what you said at the beginning, Hillary, which is like paying attention to what happens next. I think so often we end up sitting in the event itself, the reaction itself, the kid's initial behavior, and we forget. It's like I focus on shaking someone's hand when I meet them and I don't listen well to what their name is. So I then have to go back and say, I'm so sorry. And I was so busy shaking her hand that I forgot to actually listen to what your name is. Can you tell me your name? And it's like that with kids, right?

A (46:09)

It's like, do you remember it after that? Is it really the.

B (46:12)

I do, actually, because then I repeat it. Because then I repeat it and I say, oh, it's so nice to meet you, Hillary. It's so nice to meet you, Julie. But it's. I never remember to do it the first time. I always have to do it the second time. But with kids, I love the idea of paying attention. I don't want to call it the aftermath because that sounds so enormous and sort of epic and tragic. But like the ripples in the water after the initial event I love the idea of kind of watching and observing because to do that, we actually kind of have to shut our mouths too. Like, we can't be the one talking. We can't be the one reacting. We actually have to be a little quieter and a little more observant and paying attention, which is like, I don't wanna say a muzzle. Cause, you know, I don't know. That has weird connotations. But like, it does. It keeps us from talking too much. So I love that. It's so helpful. This book is really fascinating with like many, many layers and complexity. And I feel like. Cara, wouldn't you say it sort of like breaks down stuff that you sort of intuitively think about but never totally understood? Like, it makes sense of what feels like is.

A (47:27)

Sometimes I think what you all do is that you take people down a path that is both very academic in many ways and totally accessible. It's very unusual to be able to straddle both of those in a book. So, I mean, and the COVID is just so disarming. It's just, you know, these faces with red light, green light, yellow light, it's. It tells you what you're getting into. It's wonderful read. We only got to three core emotions, but it's a set of conversations that deserve time and thoughtfulness. And frankly, they get really interesting when you start going there with people. It gets really, really interesting because at the end of the day, these are things that all human beings share. That's why they're core. And so to. To really be able to understand how someone experiences them, understand how it manifests in their body, how it shifts their relationships and what they want to change about these core emotions and their reactions to it. That, Vanessa, is really what hooked me and I found so interesting. And I think our listeners will too.

D (48:47)

Thank you. I just have to say that the stuff that we share, I think, changed both of our lives in dramatic ways, shifted trajectories to healing and connection.

B (48:58)

That's beautiful. Thank you guys for joining us and for putting language to some of the trickier stuff we face as parents and giving people a pathway forward. I know it will help so many people listening.

D (49:14)

Thank you so much.

C (49:14)

So much.

B (49:16)

Thank you so much for listening. You can email us with questions, feedback or Episode requests@podcast.com if you want to

A (49:26)

learn more about what we do to make this whole stage of life less awkward for everyone involved. Our parent membership, our school health ed curriculum, our keynote tag talks, and more are all at Less awkward. Com.

B (49:42)

And if you want products that make puberty so much more comfortable, visit myumla.

D (49:49)

Com.