Ina Garten Gets Wise (Wiser Than Me with Julia Louis-Dreyfus)

Summary

Podcast Summary: "Ina Garten Gets Wise"

This Life of Mine with James Corden (Wiser Than Me with Julia Louis-Dreyfus)
Host: Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Guest: Ina Garten
Air Date: December 30, 2025
Podcast by: Lemonada Media

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Episode Overview

Julia Louis-Dreyfus sits down with culinary icon Ina Garten in a warm, layered conversation that explores aging, the joy (and anxiety) of entertaining, the science of cooking, and wisdom in relationships. From her famed roasted chicken and carrots to her aversion to cilantro, Ina Garten gets candid about the origins of her confidence, life with husband Jeffrey, not having children, and the evolution of her personal style and values. The episode is rich in anecdotes, kitchen wisdom, and laughter, providing listeners an intimate look into the mind—and kitchen—of one of America’s most beloved cooks.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Embracing Age and Life Choices

• Age and Contentment
  • Ina is comfortable sharing her age (76), expressing genuine contentment with "doing whatever I want to do" at this stage in life. (11:47)
  • “If it’s fun, I want to do it. If it’s not fun, you can’t get me to do it with a cattle prod.” – Ina Garten (13:14)
  • Both discuss how getting older brings freedom—from trying to please everyone to making more intentional, joyful choices.
• Wisdom of Experience
  • Both reflect that with age comes a more confident self, likened to "boots that are super comfortable"—the sense of stability and assurance built over decades. (12:30)
  • Small, consistent change is praised over grand resolutions.
    • “I think small changes over a long period of time make a difference. You don’t have to run a marathon. Just take a walk twice a week.” – Ina Garten (57:37)

Daily Rituals & Food Philosophy

• Ina’s Daily Meals
  • Breakfast: Toast and good French butter (“beurre de baratte with flaked sea salt”), coffee. (14:02)
  • 10:30 AM: Cup of tea with honey, “not 10:29, not 10:31.” (14:11)
  • Lunch: Always soup with Jeffrey; today’s choice—Italian wedding soup. (14:42)
  • Dinner: Out with friends or restaurant takeout, especially after a day of recipe testing. (14:46)
  • Simplicity and comfort over novelty: “People eat differently at home than in restaurants. They like really simple food.” – Ina Garten (16:40)
• Evolution of Taste
  • Ina’s style is about familiarity and flavor: “I still like roast chicken and roast carrots.” (16:39)
  • She has become more insistent on finishing recipes with things to "brighten" flavor, such as acid or salt. (17:18)
  • Her aversion to cilantro is "physiological": “It tastes like soap to me...if there’s a cilantro at the next table, I can taste it.” (18:01-18:34)
• Kitchen Tools with History
  • Ina cherishes a 55-year-old spatula from Caldor’s, illustrating the sentimental value of kitchen tools and tradition. (19:19-19:59)
  • This theme is shared by Julia, reflecting on their lasting tools and what kitchen items become tied to memory and ritual.

Entertaining, Anxiety, and Culinary Science

• Roots of Entertaining
  • Ina’s father loved parties, her mother hated them; her own style stems from freedom upon marriage: “I remember...I can do anything I want to do. And I just wanted to have parties.” (32:04)
  • She admits her first parties weren’t good! Now, after all her fame, she still feels anxious before entertaining, a sentiment Julia echoes. (34:29-35:12)
  • “Every time...I’m trying to come up with a way to cancel it.” – Julia Louis-Dreyfus (35:12)
• Recipe Development as Science
  • Ina draws a direct line from her White House work on nuclear policy to the scientific, hypothesis-driven way she crafts and tests recipes. (28:15-30:05)
  • “The way I test a recipe is absolutely scientific...I start out...with a hypothesis of what I want it to be.” – Ina Garten (29:25)
• Entertaining Made Easier
  • Ina writes cookbooks focused on simplicity to reduce host anxiety: “I want recipes to be really easy...Put the carrots on a sheet pan...hope you remember to take them out.” (35:36)
  • Both agree that the most important part is the time spent with loved ones, not perfection.

Style, Confidence, and Identity

• Personal Style
  • Ina’s signature look (button-ups, scarves) is about comfort, consistency, and machine-washability. She recounts getting the same shirt in different fabrics from Talbots. (40:36-41:04)
  • She’s not swayed by outside pressure to change: “I have this sense of who I am and that’s who I am, and I’m perfectly comfortable with it.” (42:16)
• Professional Confidence
  • Ina has stood firm with publishers and TV producers about how she wants things done, underscoring her agency and self-assurance. (41:52)
  • When asked about the origin of her confidence, she says it’s internal, rooted in a childhood of being criticized and lacking choices. (42:16-42:34)

Marriage, Motherhood, and Taking Risks

• Partnership with Jeffrey
  • The marriage is a “stake in the middle of my life,” which gives freedom. “It’s solid, supportive, positive." (43:40-44:06)
  • Their relationship pivoted from traditional roles to partnership, especially after Ina launched her Hamptons food store. (44:26-45:28)
  • When Jeffrey went to Tokyo and she stayed in East Hampton, they prioritized not resenting each other, choosing happiness and independence. (45:28-46:17)
• Decision Not to Have Children
  • “I had no interest in having children. I had a terrible childhood, and it was nothing I wanted to recreate.” (46:33)
  • The choice was unusual for the time but felt natural to Ina and, although Jeffrey would have liked kids, he respected her wishes. (46:57)
• On Taking Risks
  • Ina recognizes, especially via memoir-writing, the thread of risk-taking in her life and the surprising consistency of her certainty. (47:43-48:47)
  • If she could advise her younger self: “Don’t worry about you. I’m gonna go off a cliff. It’ll be fine. Yeah, it’s the only way you’ll get anywhere.” (56:55)

Friendship, Social Interaction, and Legacy

• Friendship as We Age
  • Ina and Jeffrey proactively build new friendships, aware that old friends may move away or pass on. (53:15)
  • Julia notes the oddity of strangers projecting humor onto her because of her TV characters. Ina shares similar experiences of "friendship" from fans. (51:01-51:43)
• Making Friends in Later Life
  • Making and maintaining friendships is intentional, and travel (notably to Paris) offers opportunities for deeper connection. (53:42)
• Language Mishaps & Learning
  • Both share stories of language fails in French, with Ina recounting a hilarious mix-up at the hair salon: “My husband’s gonna say, fuck me quick before my wife gets here.” (55:13-56:20)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Cooking and Joy:
  “It’s such a simple thing, measuring, mixing, baking. But it does take focus...It’s so meaningful to me to make something sweet and poignantly delicious for the people that I love.” – Julia Louis-Dreyfus (06:16)

• On Recipes as Science:
  “If you enjoy science, cooking is really another kind of science. In cooking, you end up with a chocolate cake. I'll take the chocolate cake any day.” – Ina Garten (28:43)

• On Kitchen Tools:
  “This is 55 years, and it’s still good.” – Ina Garten, on her favorite spatula (19:55)

• On Entertaining Anxiety:
  “Every time, if I’m having people over and I’m cooking, about an hour before, I’m trying to come up with a way to cancel it.” – Julia Louis-Dreyfus (35:12)

• On Partnership:
  “Being in a marriage is just the opposite of confining...It gives me more freedom because I know I’ll always come back to that stake. It’s solid, it’s supportive, it’s positive.” – Ina Garten (43:40)

• On Not Having Children:
  “I just had a terrible childhood, and it was nothing I wanted to recreate.” – Ina Garten (46:36)

• On Taking Risks:
  “Don’t worry about you. I’m gonna go off a cliff. It’ll be fine. Yeah, it’s the only way you’ll get anywhere.” – Ina Garten to her 21-year-old self (56:55)

• On Hating Cilantro:
  “It tastes like soap to me. If you put one leaf of cilantro on anything, that’s all I taste.” – Ina Garten (18:01)

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Important Timestamps

• Ina’s Age and Thoughts on Aging: 11:47-12:22
• Daily Food Rituals: 14:01-14:46
• Flavor Evolution & Simplicity: 16:12-16:48
• The Cilantro Gene: 17:39-18:34
• Kitchen Tools with History: 19:19-19:59
• Anxiety About Entertaining: 34:29-35:16
• Recipe Development as Science: 28:15-30:05
• Personal Style & Confidence: 40:36-42:34
• Marriage as Freedom: 43:40-44:06
• On Not Having Kids: 46:33-47:04
• Advice to Younger Self: 56:55-57:12
• On Friendship and Language Mishaps: 53:15-56:35

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Tone and Connection

The episode is conversational, friendly, and full of practical wisdom, with frank admissions of anxiety and imperfection balanced by humor and graciousness. Both Julia and Ina share their knowledge with warmth and self-deprecation, creating a sense of camaraderie that’s both inviting and instructive for listeners—food lovers or not.

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For Listeners Who Haven't Tuned In

This episode is a celebration of living—and cooking—authentically. You’ll hear why tasty food is about joy, why entertaining is about people (not perfection), and how clarity, confidence, and connection are essential recipes for a fulfilling life. Both women embrace their quirks, ritual, and resilience with refreshing honesty and humor—whether talking old spatulas, marriage, risky choices, or why, sometimes, you just need to take a walk and keep things simple.

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Transcript

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Regular listeners of this life of mine will know that really on the show often we talk about great moments in people's lives, whether that's great memories or people that they love or songs or films. But you know and I know that life isn't always full of just great moments. And we all have times when everything just kind of piles up, whether that's work or family, friendships, relationships, whatever it might be. And you think, I think I might need to speak to somebody. I had one of those stretches fairly recently actually, and I'm away from home at the moment. I'm working in New York. And I tried to find a therapist online and honestly, it was hopeless. Every therapist I found, they were either fully booked or they were out of network or they were charging prices, which made me think, sorry, does this come with a yacht? And I remember thinking, it really shouldn't be this hard. Affordable, accessible mental health care shouldn't be something that's out of reach. But too often it is. And look, if we use insurance for physical health, why shouldn't our mental health get the same treatment? And that's exactly why I love what Ruler is doing. Here's the deal with Ruler. Most online therapy platforms don't work with insurance at all, which means you'll be stuck paying out of pocket or signing up for some incredibly expensive monthly subscription. But Ruler does it differently. They partner with over 100 insurance plans, which means the average copay is just $15 a session. And Ruler doesn't just match you with the first available therapist. They actually take the time to understand your goals. And then they will give you a curated list of therapists who are in network and genuinely aligned with what it is that you need. So if you go to ruler.com lifeofmind you can get started today. That's R U L A.com lifeofmine for quality therapy that is covered by insurance. There are no wait lists, no endless emails. Ruler helps you find someone who is available as soon as tomorrow. Because finding the right therapist, well, that could be life changing. Thousands of people are already using Rula to get affordable, high quality therapy that is actually covered by insurance. So if you visit ruler.comlifeofmind you can get started straight away. And after you sign up, they're gonna ask you how you heard about them. And it would be great if you could support our show and let them know that we sent you the that's r u l a.com lifeofmine. You deserve mental healthcare that works with you, not against your budget.

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Once in our travels, when I was a little girl of about eight, I think, when my daddy Tom was a surgeon on the Hope Hospital ship, we were living in Tunisia, and I remember very vividly that I was so upset with my mom because she said I had to finish my dinner before I had dessert, which made no sense at all. And there was another couple there who were working with my dad. And the woman in the couple said, well, how about I take you out for lunch, just you and me, and then you can have dessert first. And so that was very appealing, as you can imagine. And I. I did. We went to lunch and I ordered a huge hot fudge sundae. I mean, just huge. And I just gobbled that fucker up. And then when it was time to actually order lunch, well, I couldn't really order lunch because I was too full. But I assure you of one thing, I did not learn a lesson that day. I've always been a true and deep lover of sweets and desserts. In fact, one of my earliest memories is of these peanut butter cookies that my grandma Dee Dee made for me. You know, the kind that have the fork imprint on them? I still have her handwritten index card with the cookie recipe. Well, actually, I think I have it. I don't know where it is. My mom may have it, I don't know, but I love dessert so much. I don't know exactly why, other than it's so sweet and yummy, but God, why not? It's always been like that for me. And so, you know, when our kids were little, providing for them Obviously, this is some instinctual maternal thing. You just get this incredible joy out of your kids finishing a meal that you made for them, right? The most basic kind of nurturing. And I'm also very captive to ritual, as I think we all are to a certain extent. So I put great store into birthdays and making sure that both of our kids always had memorable birthdays. And so when our first son, Henry was little, you know, just a little toddler, I was so looking forward to baking him a birthday cake. And so I asked him what kind of cake he wanted. And I mean, honestly, he was little, he was barely even talking. What does he know about cakes? But he was a fanciful kid. So I, when I said, what kind of cake do you want? Hen. And he said, orange. And this was clearly the color orange. I don't think that he had any idea that a cake could even have an orange flavor. This was just about the look of it. You know, think about it. Just a giant orange cake. So I set about looking for an orange cake that I could make for him, and I did. I found a Bundt cake made with real oranges that I then jerry rigged into a three layer cake. And then I concocted this cream cheese frosting to go with it. And I shouldn't say this because, you know, it's not very, you know, farm to table of me, but I dyed the frosting orange. Not a bright orange, more sort of of a peachy salmon color so that it was aesthetically pleasing, you know, and I covered it in mandarin oranges on top. It was gorgeous. And it was a huge hit with Henry. And I've been making that cake on his birthday ever since. And then my younger son Charlie, he requested a key lime pie. So I made him this key lime pie. Order the key lime juice from just one place these guys called the Manhattan Key Lime Juice Company. And you can look it up because that's all they sell for real key lime juice, nothing else, which is just so fabulously old school. I just love it. So I've been making that key lime pie for my Charlie for almost 25 years, and the orange cake for Henry going on 30 years now. I use fresh oranges from our own tree, so it's even better for me, this is just the quintessence of a gesture of love. It's such a simple thing, you know, measuring, mixing, baking. But it does take focus and concentration and exactness. And even then, it doesn't always go the way you want. You know, there's some luck and karma mixed into it, too. But, boy, it's just. It's so meaningful to me to make something sweet and poignantly delicious for the people that I love. And I plan on doing this for the rest of my life. This little thing, or it's actually kind of a big thing because it gives me such joy and pride. It's become a sacrament really now to me. So I guess cooking can take on a significance way beyond just being delicious and nutritious. And that's why I am so delighted today to get to talk to Ina Garten. Hi, I'm Julia Louis Dreyfus, and this is Wiser Than Me, the podcast where I get schooled by women who are wiser than me. Anybody hungry? You're gonna be. Cause our guest today has been dishing out fabulous recipes and a shit ton of charm for decades. She is the Barefoot Contessa, the queen of comfort cooking. Her signature bob and blue shirt are as iconic as her roasted chicken. But it's not just about the food. Her down to earth approach has not only transformed the culinary landscape, but has also left a real mark on how real people perce and embrace the art of home cooking. I mean, we eat roasted carrots at our house because of her. In an era full of star chefs, she claims not to be a chef, but a cook. She stands out not just for her recipes, but for her genuine connection with her audience, which has made her a cultural figure, known for her warmth and authenticity. And somehow that makes her food even more scrumptious. One iconic store, two hit TV shows, 13 bestselling cookbooks and a 55 year long marriage later, our guest feels universally cherished, especially by her husband Jeffrey, but also by me. And for me, she really pretty much is up there with fresh, salty butter on warm bread. I think it's because she makes every meal feel like a cozy get together with an old friend. Now, full disclosure, I'm really just hoping to get invited to a dinner party at her house. And I'll bring the dessert. I will. I'm so pleased to welcome the James Beard Award winner and the Hamptons most notorious resident, a woman who is so much wiser than me, Ina Garten.

[Ina Garten]

Ina, I'm so happy to be here.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

I love you. I love you. I love you. Let's just say that from the start.

[Ina Garten]

I love that the roast carrots are. You think of me when you think of roast chicken and roast carrots? Because that's what I always say. It's about those two things.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

It is.

[Ina Garten]

It's about simplicity and delicious.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Completely 100%. You brought carrots back into my life in a very powerful way. So let me ask you something. Are you comfortable if we share your real age?

[Ina Garten]

I am.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

And what is your real age?

[Ina Garten]

My real age is 76.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

And how old do you feel, Ina?

[Ina Garten]

You know, I kind of like being 76. I get to do whatever I want to do.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah, yeah. No BS.

[Ina Garten]

No. I mean, I wouldn't mind a 25 year old body.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Right, right, right.

[Ina Garten]

But the rest of it, I'll take the 76.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

I hear that. I love that you're completely embracing it. I feel the same way about getting older. I mean, there are aspects of being younger, physical aspects that would be nice. But there is something very freeing about getting older. Right.

[Ina Garten]

Well, I feel like when we're younger we wonder what will become of us and when we're older, we know what's gonna become of us and it's turned out really great.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah, I completely hear that. And it's nice to feel. It's like boots that you've been wearing a long time, they're super comfortable and you feel confident in them.

[Ina Garten]

I think when you're younger you feel like you have to do everything just cause you know, you're just building things and you have to do everything that comes your way. And then when you get older, you start choosing and you choose because it's fun, not for any other reason. Right?

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Well, that's right. And I remember in doing research to talk with you and you were saying that Jeffrey, when you were making the decision to leave government, the White House, and you weren't sure what to do, and he said, well, just find something that's fun for you.

[Ina Garten]

Well, because he said it for me particularly, because if it's fun, I want to do it. If it's not fun, you can't get me to do it with a cattle prod.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Uh huh. I had a physics teacher when I was in High School. Mr. Coyne. Marty Coyne. And he was a wonderful teacher. He would write at the bottom of every paper that you would turn in. He would say, have fun at all costs.

[Ina Garten]

Isn't that great?

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah. And obviously that can be misunderstood, but I knew what he meant and I've certainly applied that in my own life. It's an incredible lens through which to make decisions.

[Ina Garten]

Yeah, exactly.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

So tell me, take me through a typical eating day for you. Like, you know, well, I mean, what'd you eat today? What have you had to eat?

[Ina Garten]

Well, it's pretty orderly actually.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah, I want to hear I pretty.

[Ina Garten]

Much have toast and coffee for breakfast. And the toast has to have good French butter on it. With shaved sea salt.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yes.

[Ina Garten]

It's called beurre de barat B a R a T T e with flaked sea salt. And it's just so delicious. And so that's what I have for breakfast. And then at exactly 10:30, I have to have a cup of tea with a little honey in it. And it's not 1029 and it's not 1031. At 1030, my brain goes bing. I have to have some tea.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Okay.

[Ina Garten]

And then for lunch, Jeffrey and I always have soup, which is so easy because I can make a lot of soup and leave it in the freezer.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

What'd you have today?

[Ina Garten]

I had Italian wedding soup.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yummy.

[Ina Garten]

And then for dinner, we either go out to dinner with friends or we order dinner from a restaurant. I've been testing recipes all day. The last thing I want to do is make dinner.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah, I hear that.

[Ina Garten]

And I don't like to have for dinner what I tested during the day unless it's totally done. And it's so good, I want Jeffrey to have it.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Right.

[Ina Garten]

That's work. And this is dinner.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Got it.

[Ina Garten]

And I don't want to eat something and go, I wish it had more rosemary in it. It's just not fun.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah, not fun. There we go with the fun again.

[Ina Garten]

Yeah.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

I want to show you a picture for our listeners. I'm showing a picture of what I made for me and my husband this morning for breakfast. Let me see if you can see it. Oh, wait. Shit. Oh, God. I don't know how to get that thing away. Oh, God. I'm trying to work my iPhone. Okay, wait, can you see that?

[Ina Garten]

That's smashed poached eggs on toast. Oh, smashed eggs on toast.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

The smashed eggs with the grainy mustard.

[Ina Garten]

Isn't that great?

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah.

[Ina Garten]

Oh, how fabulous was that? To get you in the mood for today.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah. And also, I was just looking. I was reviewing a bunch of your cookbooks, which, of course, I own, and I was just sort of.

[Ina Garten]

Oh, thank you.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Wanted to get. Oh, yeah. Are you kidding me? I mean, I could not live without them.

[Ina Garten]

Oh, Julia.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

I could not live without them.

[Ina Garten]

Thank you.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

How has your relationship changed to food as you've gotten older? You know, I mean, are there tastes that you have now that you didn't then or things, I mean, back in the day or things you didn't like when you were younger that you love now?

[Ina Garten]

I think my style hasn't changed at all. I think my. It might be my sophistication about things has changed, and I've learned about a few things. So, you know, I didn't know what truffle butter was. I didn't know what sriracha was. There are a few things in the 25 years I've been writing cookbooks that I've kind of acquired as part of the repertoire of things that I can use. But I think I still like roast chicken and roast carrots.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

I know you can't beat it, man.

[Ina Garten]

Just. It's one thing I learned when I had a specialty food store is that people eat differently at home than they do in a restaurant. They like really simple food.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Right.

[Ina Garten]

And that's true about me, too, actually. I like simple food in a restaurant, too, but it's. People don't want fancy, you know, ve with morels at home.

[Judith Bowles]

Yeah.

[Ina Garten]

And so I think that hasn't changed. What has changed a little bit is my insistence on flavor. That if I go back to a recipe I wrote 20 years ago, it needs a little extra something. And I think it's always something like some acid, like lemon juice or red wine vinegar.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Vinegar, yeah.

[Ina Garten]

Or something salty like parmesan cheese. Just that little thing at the end that needs to be added that kind of brings out the flavor. So I've gotten better at that.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Better at identifying that. Right?

[Ina Garten]

Yeah.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Because I think our taste buds change, you know, I mean, I think that they physically change. Don't ask me how or why that happens.

[Ina Garten]

Oh, maybe. But I didn't like cilantro when I started, and I still don't like cilantro now, so that'll never change.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah. Now, listen, you and I are gonna have a huge argument about that, because I love cilantro.

[Ina Garten]

You love it.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

I put on everything.

[Ina Garten]

Do you really?

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah, I do. I made chicken salad the other day, and I just throw tons of cilantro in it. Why don't you like cilantro, by the way?

[Ina Garten]

I think it's physiological. I think what you taste is not what I taste. I really.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Oh, it may be. Oh, yeah.

[Ina Garten]

It's really physiological. It tastes like soap to me. And if you put one leaf of cilantro on anything, that's all I taste.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Oh, my God. That's incredible.

[Ina Garten]

And I like how things are layered. You know, like a flavor bubbles up with chocolate and coffee and vanilla, and they have to be layered the right way. And cilantro, once there's a leaf of cilantro, actually, if there's a cilantro at the next Table. I can taste it. It's just so bad.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Okay, so I know what not to get you for Christmas. A bunch of cilantro. Sometimes I like to think, believe it or not, this sort of calms me down. In my mind, I think about what in my kitchen is a must have. You know, like, just basic things I have. For example, I have a hand electric mixer that my mom gave me, and it says General Electric on it. It's from, like. Yeah, like the early 70s, I think. And that's a must have for me. Or a rubber spatula, you know, with a little tiny curve in it, you know, with the concave center. Are there things like that that you just tools in the kitchen that you just have a love affair with?

[Ina Garten]

I do have a spatula from when I got married. From before I got married, actually. Yeah, it was from Caldor's.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Caldor's. I remember. If anybody remembers Caldor's. I do. They had everything at Caldor's.

[Ina Garten]

Right?

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Everything. And is it a spatula that still really works well?

[Ina Garten]

It works perfectly well. And I can't replace it. I can't find the same spatula. They're either huge spatulas or tiny spatulas. And this is just the right size spatula.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

I have one of those, too, but it's not from when I was. Before I was married. But I've had it for probably 25 years. And I just. I. I love it.

[Ina Garten]

This is 55 years, and it's still good.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

I thought you were referring to your marriage. You said this is 55 years. It's still good.

[Ina Garten]

Even better than a spatula.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah, exactly. So, moving out of the kitchen for a moment. You're a gardener. You have a beautiful garden at your house in the Hamptons.

[Ina Garten]

Thank you.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

I'm in Santa Barbara, California, and I planted garlic, which I've never planted before.

[Ina Garten]

I haven't either. And the garlic scapes that grow on the top, you can grill them. They're really great.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

No way.

[Ina Garten]

Really? Yeah.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah. And I did not know. You break apart your clove of garlic and you take each individual clove and you plant it.

[Ina Garten]

Plant it? Yeah.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

And it's already poked through the earth, and I just planted it, like, nine days ago, which is kind of amazing, you know?

[Ina Garten]

Isn't that great? Yeah.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah.

[Ina Garten]

Does gardening teach you patience? I don't tend to be patient, but I like seeing something evolve in a garden.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yes, it teaches me. Certainly does teach me patience. But also, it's a thrill because you don't know. There's so much you know, if you go away for a week and then you come back to look at your garden, things will have changed. So it always feels like a miracle to me. It does.

[Ina Garten]

And also, the structure of the plant is different from the flower itself.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Right.

[Ina Garten]

When the flower dies, the plant itself is beautiful. And then the seed pods are different from the flower, so it just keeps evolving. Yeah, it's just great.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah. It's a reminder of life and the miracle of life, you know?

[Ina Garten]

And the circle.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

And the circle. Yeah. It's just gorgeous until the bunnies come and eat my roses.

[Ina Garten]

They eat your roses?

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah. Those little motherfuckers.

[Ina Garten]

But they're so adorable.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

They're so precious. But I do kind of turn into, like, Farmer McGregor or Elmer Fudd. I have learned to hate them.

[Ina Garten]

And can you garden all year round because you're in Santa Barbara?

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah.

[Ina Garten]

Oh, that's great.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

But believe it or not. Yes. But we do have seasons, so certain things look great right now, and certain things are dormant.

[Ina Garten]

And you have rosemary hedges, which we couldn't even begin to have here. Right?

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

I know. And every time my mother visits, she cuts. I mean, I have rosemary all over the place. It's like ground cover. And she just goes around cutting it. It's like she's a crazy woman and she puts it into a bag to take home to herself and to all her girlfriends.

[Ina Garten]

Like, they don't have rosemary in New York.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

I know, but it feels special, right? Coming from this garden. We have to take a break now. My conversation with Ina Garten continues in just a bit.

Regular listeners of this life of mine will know that really on the show, often we talk about great moments in people's lives, whether that's great memories or people that they love or songs or films. But you know, and I know that life isn't always full of just great moments. And we all have times when everything just kind of piles up, whether that's work or family, friendships, relationships, whatever it might be. And you think? I think I might need to speak to somebody. I had one of those stretches fairly recently, actually. And I'm away from home at the moment. I'm working in New York. And I tried to find a therapist online, and honestly, it was hopeless. Every therapist I found, they were either fully booked or they were out of network or they were charging prices, which made me think, sorry, does this come with a yacht? And I remember thinking, it really shouldn't be this hard. Affordable, accessible mental health care shouldn't be something that's out of reach. But too often, it is. And look, if we use insurance for physical health, why shouldn't our mental health get the same treatment? And that's exactly why I love what Ruler here's the deal with Ruler, Most online therapy platforms don't work with insurance at all, which means you'll be stuck paying out of pocket or signing up for some incredibly expensive monthly subscription. But Ruler does it differently. They partner with over 100 insurance plans, which means the average copay is just $15 a session. And Ruler doesn't just match you with the first available therapist, they actually take the time to understand your go. And then they will give you a curated list of therapists who are in network and genuinely aligned with what it is that you need. So if you go to ruler.com lifeofmind you can get started today. That's R U L A.com lifeofmine for quality therapy that is covered by insurance. There are no wait lists, no endless emails. Ruler helps you find someone who is available as soon as tomorrow. Because finding the right therapist, well that could be life changing. Thousands of people are already using Ruler to get affordable, high quality therapy that is actually covered by insurance. So if you visit ruler.comlifeofmind you can get started straight away and after you sign up they're gonna ask you how you heard about them and it would be great if you could support our show and let them know that we sent you. That's r u l a.com lifeofmind you deserve mental healthcare that works with you, not against your budget.

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[Ina Garten]

Yeah.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

And you worked on nuclear policy, correct?

[Ina Garten]

Right.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah. And what struck me, first of all, that's extraordinary, that this is your story in and of itself, but I was thinking about science and the overlap of science and cooking.

[Ina Garten]

Yeah, I'm totally aware of it.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Right.

[Ina Garten]

It's not an accident. Exactly.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

It's not an accident.

[Ina Garten]

I think that if you enjoy science, cooking is really another kind of science. And I always think that if you work in science, you end up with nuclear energy or you end up with gibberellic acid or whatever it is in cooking. You end up with a chocolate cake. So I'll take the chocolate cake any day.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

100%.

[Ina Garten]

Yeah. So I think they are very related. And the way I test a recipe is absolutely scientific. I'll make a recipe once and I'll analyze what the result is, and then I'll change one or two things about it and then make it again. And then change one or two things about it, make it again. And it's a very scientific process for me.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

And you're taking notes along the way, obviously, right?

[Ina Garten]

Yeah, I take notes along the way. And I start out, I think, the way you often do in science, with hypothesis of what I want it to be. If I'm doing a chocolate cake, I want to know I know what texture I'm looking for, what flavor I'm looking for, what range of flavor, you know, like what things I want to have bubble up. And if I don't know where I'm going, I'll never finish. So I have to have something in my head where I'm going, and. And I keep testing it until I kind of hear that ping that says that's what I'm looking for.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Do recipes come to you in your. I mean, like, do you conjure them in your head? Are you like improvising a recipe and then you write it down and you try it. How does that work, Ina?

[Ina Garten]

Not really. I will. I'll start with an idea of something that I might have seen in my travels, I might have seen at a restaurant, I might have read in a book. But then I'll read a lot of other people's views on that thing, whatever it is. If I'm making like an Italian soup, ribollita, I'll just read a lot about ribollita and then I'll put all the books away and I'll start cooking.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Wow.

[Ina Garten]

So it's kind of what my idea of what ribollita should be and how I can make it taste better.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

So you're an improviser as well? Yeah, to a certain extent.

[Ina Garten]

Exactly.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

My husband's brother Jim is a scientist, a very respected scientist at UC Irvine. And I remember he was at our house once and I was cooking, I loved to bake and I was baking and somebody was in the kitchen with me and they were measuring out the flour. But they were measuring it out but.

[Ina Garten]

Not leveling it off.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Leveling it off. Which I said, no, no, no, no, you must level it off. And I was showing how to do it actually for all the ingredients, particularly for baking. And I remember looking at my brother in law, Jimmy, and he had such, what can I say? Respect and adoration in his face because he was a scientist. He was appreciating the attention to the detail. The detail? Yeah, the detail.

[Ina Garten]

I follow recipes exactly. Even my own, I measure everything. And then, because once you've spent the time to make sure it's absolutely perfect, why do you want to start throwing ingredients in there?

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah, you want it to be exactly right. That's right.

[Ina Garten]

Especially as a baker.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah, especially the baker. Right, Especially. Talk about entertaining. I mean, did your family entertain growing up?

[Ina Garten]

My dad loved to have parties.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Oh, he did.

[Ina Garten]

My mother hated it. Hated it. But it was my mother that had to give the parties. So it was always a struggle. It was always. I mean, she did parties because he liked his friends, but I think it was. It was never a happy experience. And as soon as I got married, I was like. I remember being in our first house, it was a garden apartment in North Carolina. And I remember looking around Going, I can do anything I want to do. Now for the first time, I have nobody criticizing me, nobody telling me what to do. I can do whatever I want. And I just wanted to have parties. So I just started teaching myself how to cook.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

It was then.

[Ina Garten]

It was then, literally as soon as I got married.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Did you like food before then? Were you a food lover or did that really come?

[Ina Garten]

Not really, no. And I was never allowed to cook when I was a kid, really. So I really didn't. I don't think I ever connected with it. I didn't know that it was something that would be fun to do at all. Well, I mean, I think when I was a kid, I didn't even know I would do anything. So I thought, you know, I was kind of of the generation when I was in college, I thought, well, I'm going to college, and then I'll get married. And that's that. It was Jeffrey who said to me, you need to figure out what to do with your life. He said, unless you do something, you're not going to be happy. And I was like, whoa. Never even occurred to me.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Wow, that's incredible.

[Ina Garten]

Isn't that amazing?

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yes, it's amazing. And you were 20, right?

[Ina Garten]

I was 20, yeah. I was 20. So that was really the beginning of trying to figure out what I wanted to do.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Ina Garten]

And I totally credit him with that.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah. And when you started to entertain at a. At a young age, did you feel the same anxiety that your mom had or you. Or you did and you overcame it or you didn't have it?

[Ina Garten]

I gave some pretty bad parties in the beginning.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

No way. I don't believe it.

[Ina Garten]

Oh, I seriously. I remember one party in North Carolina, I decided to invite everybody for brunch, which I hate, but I invited everybody for brunch. And I thought, well, I'll make an omelet for everybody. It was like, 20 people.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

It was, oh, that's such a bad idea.

[Ina Garten]

And I don't. You know, now I know how to make an omelette. It's not easy. I don't know what the hell I made when I was 20, but I was in the kitchen the whole time.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

And I think, of course, you were.

[Ina Garten]

Like a year to. To get over that and. And give parties. I think my mother was. Had anxiety about the people as well as the food. I mean, today I have to say, I'm not a comfortable cook. If I'm giving a dinner party, I'm beside myself with anxiety that it's not gonna come out right even after all this time.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Even after all this time, are you the same way? I'm afraid so. I really. Every time, if I'm having people over and I'm cooking about an hour before, I'm trying to come up with a way to cancel it.

[Ina Garten]

That's really great. I hadn't gone that far, but that's. No, I totally understand.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

I mean, I want out of this. It's like, the table's pretty. That was fun. It was fun to set the table. Dessert I made earlier, I love to make dessert. That's okay. But the meal. Oh, fucking forget it.

[Ina Garten]

It's just the worst.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

It's the worst.

[Ina Garten]

That's one of the things that I'm aware of when I'm writing a cookbook is how hard it is to give a dinner party.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah, it's hard.

[Ina Garten]

It's so much work. It's so difficult, and it's so much anxiety for. And unless you're. I don't know, Unless you're a restaurant chef, it's so hard. That's why I want the recipes to be really easy. So you can just put the carrots on a sheet pan, olive oil, salt and pepper, throw it in the oven, and hope you remember to take them out.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah, exactly. There's a story in our family. My husband's grandmother, this was in the Deep south, and it was during the Depression, and she was having people over, and they were not. They were not well off. They were actually, you know, pretty strapped for cash back in the day. And it was a depression, and she had people over, and she was sitting at the table. Her name was Narcisse. And her daughter Charlotte brought in the roast. And all of a sudden, Charlotte tripped, and the roast fell onto the ground. And Nar. Brad's grandmother, without missing a beat, she goes, that's all right, Charlotte. Just pick that up and take it back and get the other one. There was no other one.

[Ina Garten]

It was this one washed off. Yeah, that's really. That was a really good catch.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah. Yeah, she was. That was a really good improvised moment.

[Ina Garten]

Really good improvised moment. Got.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

And you like, cook. You prefer cooking alone, though, right? That's what I heard you say. You prefer to be by yourself, cooking.

[Ina Garten]

I mean, considering that I do this professionally, I can't cook and talk at the same time.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah.

[Ina Garten]

I mean, I do it on tv, and that's okay, but if I know it has to come out perfectly. I mean, Jeffrey's always, you know, hanging out and talking to me. I'm like, jeffrey, I can't talk. I just have to. Cause I'll forget to do something. And especially if I really know the recipe, if it's something I make a lot, I'll always forget an ingredient if I'm not focusing on it. It's like my attention span isn't that good, so I have to really concentrate to get it right. Do you feel like you have to do that too?

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yes. I mean, I have a brother in law, Patrick, with whom I can cook because we can stand by each other and not talk. But honestly, I get bothered when people are around me talking or even offering to help. I'm like.

[Ina Garten]

Don'T offer to help, just get out of my way. And it's really inhospitable to say, don't touch it.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Get out of here. Go enjoy your cocktail. I'll be there in a minute anyway.

[Ina Garten]

It's fine. You know what? At the end of the day, the only thing that's really important is to have time with your friends.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Completely.

[Ina Garten]

I keep trying to remind myself, don't get obsessed about whether something's absolutely exactly the way you wanted it to be. As long as everybody's having a good time and if they feel like we are anxious about it, it's gonna. It's gonna ruin the evening.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah, it's gonna ruin the evening. So we gotta get our shit together. That's what you're saying?

[Ina Garten]

So no, on top of being anxious about the meal, we have to look like we're not anxious, which makes you more anxious, right?

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Of course.

[Ina Garten]

But that'll be our little secret.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

That's our secret. You never heard it from me. Never heard it. Don't go anywhere. More wisdom from Ina Garten after this quick break. This episode of Wiser Than Me is brought to you by the Cancer Guard test from the makers of the cologuard test. Nearly 70% of cancers diagnosed have no routine screening, including some of the most aggressive, like pancreatic, ovarian, liver, esophageal, stomach and lung cancers. CancerGuard helps address this unmet need and complements existing recommended screening to expand the ability to help detect more cancers earlier. Cancer Guard is a simple blood test that helps screen for over 50 cancer types and subtypes even before symptoms appear. When treatment may be more effective, the Cancer Guard test helps you take proactive steps for your health with confidence and peace of mind. Talk to your doctor about Cancer Guard to see if the test is right for you or visit cancerguard.com for more information and to connect with a telehealth provider. You can also give the Gift of peace of mind this holiday with a Cancer Guard gift [e-mail] wiser. This test is not recommended for individuals who have had cancer in the last three years or are pregnant, and it is not a replacement for recommended screening. The Cancer guard test may be HSAFSA eligible. You're known for your, your look, your signature style with the, the button up shirts and with your beautiful scarves.

Thank you.

How would you characterize that style?

[Ina Garten]

Comfortable.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah.

[Ina Garten]

That's everything goes in the washing machine.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

It does.

[Ina Garten]

I mean, I, I. Yeah, I just, I love these shirts. I got a shirt from Talbots that I just loved and I asked if they could make it for me in different fabrics and they said sure.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Wow.

[Ina Garten]

And so I have them in corduroy for the winter and I have them in denim chambray for the summer. And I know I can put it on and feel comfortable and feel like it looks put together.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

It does.

[Ina Garten]

It does. Oh, good.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah, it does. Yes. I have to say, it's funny because I went back and I started watching the first season of Barefoot Contemporary.

[Ina Garten]

Oh, did you really?

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yes.

[Ina Garten]

Oh, my God.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

And what I so admire about you in your approach and also your look is that it's classic and it's worked. It's worked from the get go and you stuck to it. You didn't try to futz with it, in my view, anyway. And that speaks to a lot of confidence, I think, in you. You have confidence in yourself.

[Ina Garten]

Thank you.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Do you agree with that?

[Ina Garten]

I mean, I wouldn't say I'm confident about everything, but I think professionally I feel very confident that I know what I want and anything less than that is not okay with me.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah.

[Ina Garten]

And I've really pushed through a lot of times where a publisher or a TV producer will disagree with me, and I'm just like, no, this is the way I'm gonna do it. And I feel that way about my clothes too. Like, I'm sure that they would like me to change my outfit all the time. I'm just not. That's not who I am.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

And where does that, where does that come from, Ina?

[Ina Garten]

I don't know. I really don't. Because when I was a kid, I was always criticized for everything. So I think it was just internal. I just, I have this sense of who I am and that's who I am, and I'm perfectly comfortable with it. And if you don't like it, that's okay.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

You know, it's not your problem.

[Ina Garten]

The tv.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Right. Exactly.

Right.

Maybe it was like a really healthy defense.

[Ina Garten]

Maybe it was, you know. Yeah. We never know whether it's in the DNA or whether it's developed. But I love to listen to everybody's opinion and then choose what I want to do. And once I've made that decision, I'm good to go. Are you the same way?

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah, I think I am. And I have my group of people that I go to for their take on things.

[Ina Garten]

Oh, I totally do. Yeah.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

But when I'm sure about something or I haven't, I would say that my instincts are usually pretty right. And the mistakes I've made in my life have been not following those instincts sometimes, you know.

[Ina Garten]

Isn't that interesting? Yeah. Well, I mean, whatever you're doing, keep doing it, because you're totally beloved.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Oh, God, that's so.

[Ina Garten]

For whatever you do.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Thank you so much. Thank you so much. And I think, well, having a healthy marriage helps, right?

[Ina Garten]

It does. You know, it's funny, I was just telling somebody recently, people think that being in a marriage is confining in some way, but I find it's just the opposite. It's like a big anchor in the. Like, a stake in the middle of my life. And it actually gives me more freedom because I know I will always come back to that stake, to that. It's solid, it's supportive, it's positive.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Absolutely. Brad and I have been married, oh, my God, 36 years now. And, you know, I could. Jesus, I could never have done any of this without him in my life.

[Ina Garten]

Well, that's how I feel, too. Yeah.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah. And has your marriage changed over the many decades you've been married?

[Ina Garten]

Well, I think it's different now. When we lived in Washington, it was much more traditional. I mean, it was the 70s, and he worked in the State Department. He worked for Kissinger and Secretary of State Vance, and I worked in omb. You know, it was always expected that I was going to cook dinner. They were kind of roles that we played. And I've increasingly dislike those roles. And so I think my move to buy a specialty food store and have my own business was really breaking out of those roles. So there was a little bit of a time where we had to figure that out. But he's so intuitive and so respectful of me and so encouraging me to do what I want to do, that it wasn't a terrible. You know, we worked it out.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Right.

[Ina Garten]

And I think he's freer and I'm freer. So it's. It's. Now it became more of a partnership rather than, like, traditional roles.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yes.

[Ina Garten]

There was a time in our life where he was offered to live in Tokyo for a year. And I had just signed a lease for a store in East Hampton. And we were like, what are we going to do? And he. He said, you know what? Let's both do what we want to do, because we can't choose. If we get to do what I want to do, you'll resent it. And if I don't get to do that and I have to stay in East Hampton, then I'll resent it. So let's just do it. Let's do it for a while and see if anybody's unhappy. We'll make a change. And it worked out fine, actually, after a year, I wrote to him and I said, you know, I think you need to come home, because it's not that I'm miserable. I'm just fine, and I think it's a bad idea. So we worked it out.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah. So you got married pretty young, which was typical back then, but it was not typical. And really, I think it was a very bold move as a woman, and particularly as a working woman in the 70s, to make the decision to not have kids.

[Ina Garten]

No, it wasn't a struggle at all. I had no interest in having children.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

None.

[Ina Garten]

I just. I had a terrible childhood, and it was nothing I wanted to recreate. I think now, looking back, I might say I see my friends with their children, and I understand what it could be.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yes.

[Ina Garten]

But when I was 20, I didn't want to have anything to do with it.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

And Jeffrey felt the same way.

[Ina Garten]

I think Jeffrey would have been a great parent. He would have really loved having children. But he wanted me to be happy, and it was okay with him.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Nowadays, to opt not to have kids, it feels more sort of almost normal. But back then, I would think.

[Ina Garten]

But then it wasn't, then it wasn't.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

And there you are being sure of yourself.

[Ina Garten]

So, yeah, I don't know where that came from. I really don't. But I just. I don't know where that certainty came from, but I was really sure of that.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

But it's the same certainty that you were referring to earlier, I think, maybe.

[Ina Garten]

Because when I was a kid, I didn't have any choices. Somebody else made all my choices.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah, right.

[Ina Garten]

So once I had the power, I really used it. Maybe. I mean, that's kind of what you said, which I hadn't thought about. It's probably very true.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Good for you. I love that.

[Ina Garten]

You know, one of the things that's happened to me over the past Years, Few years. I've been working on a memoir.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

I know you do.

[Ina Garten]

And what was interesting to me is the threads through. I never look back. The threads that are so consistent. And one of the things is taking risks. And what you're saying is really true is how sure I was along the way of what I wanted at each kind of intersection. It gave me a very different view of myself than I had, which was surprising.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

What was that characterize that?

[Ina Garten]

It gave me more confidence about who I am. I was very surprised the consistency of things through my life. And I didn't. I actually didn't realize it until I started writing. And it made me feel good.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

I'm so looking forward to reading it.

[Ina Garten]

Oh, thank you, thank you. I mean, there are things I did in my 20s and I look back and I think, my God, I was like jumping off a cliff and I had no idea what was going to happen. But I just kept doing it over and over again and anyway, so that was surprising that I started doing it so early.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah. Right. So you've kind of been this person for a long time, right?

[Ina Garten]

Yeah.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

But wait a minute. Do you ever. Do you ever like. Do you get mad? Do you lose your temper? What pisses you off?

[Ina Garten]

Pisses me off? Passive aggressive people.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Oh, right.

[Ina Garten]

Number one on my list, really. People who tell you something so that you don't have the opportunity to change it. People that lie to you basically so that you do what they want you to do. That really makes me mad.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Excise all those people from your life. That's my. Yeah, right.

[Ina Garten]

Exactly.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yes, exactly.

[Ina Garten]

I think it's one of the things that you get to do when you're older is that when you're young you think your relationships are going to go on forever. And as you get older, you realize sometimes they don't. Sometimes you have to choose your own happiness and as you said, excise people that are hurting you.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Have you had to do that a lot?

[Ina Garten]

Not a lot, but I've had to do it. And it was painful because, you know, I just. I hate hurting people. But if it's a relationship that is damaging at some point, you know, you try and fix it. You try and fix it again, you try and fix it again and sometimes you just can't. And so you have to move on.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yes, that's the benefit of getting older. Really?

[Ina Garten]

Yeah, it is.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

It's a huge benefit.

[Ina Garten]

You just have to say, this isn't working.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Right.

[Ina Garten]

This is making me unhappy and I don't deserve to be unhappy, so get.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

The fuck out of my house.

[Ina Garten]

Exactly. Yeah.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah. What draws you to other people?

[Ina Garten]

I think I like positive energy. I like people who are doing interesting things that are. That really show up. They don't come and expect to be entertained.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah.

[Ina Garten]

Do people do that with you? Do they try and tell you things that are funny to make you laugh?

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

They assume I'm gonna be funny. And I'm not a big. It's not like I'm a big joke teller. And sometimes I'm very quiet because I'm just. Cause sometimes I am. I'm just watching the. Listening.

[Ina Garten]

You're observing.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Observing. And I think. And then sometimes people think I'm being funny when I'm not trying to be funny. Do you know what I mean? You sort of. I do, yeah.

[Ina Garten]

Yeah. Because they expect it.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

They expect it. So a certain gesture or whatever. I didn't mean that to be funny, but I'll take the laugh.

[Ina Garten]

Well, also, because you play very humorous characters and you play them so brilliantly, they forget that it's a character you're playing. It's not necessarily. Julia.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Oh, my God. Yes. And they also, I think, particularly with television. Well, now everything is. I mean, who knows? With computer, I should say. I mean, everybody's watching it on all these other devices. But, you know, you're in their home.

[Ina Garten]

Yeah.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

I mean, you have that same experience with your show. No doubt.

[Ina Garten]

Yeah.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

You're in their home. So they feel relaxed with your presence.

[Ina Garten]

And they feel like you're a friend.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Correct. Which can be lovely. There is a downside to it, though. I was one time when I was giving birth to my first son, and this is kind of a gross story, but we can cut it out if it's too repulsive. But anyway, and I was. I was giving birth and I. And they. You know, when. When you're in labor, they put that monitor around your tummy?

[Ina Garten]

Yeah.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

And I was in the bathroom and I was naked and I had the thing around my tummy. I was. And I was massive, by the way. And I gained, like, you know, £50 when I was pregnant. And I was standing there and my water broke. And all of a sudden a nurse came into the room and I went. My water broke. Okay. Reminding you. Naked. And she goes, elaine.

[Ina Garten]

Oh, my God.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

It was so awful.

[Ina Garten]

Elaine. Elaine.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Isn't that crazy? I know. I know. How do you make friends as you get older? Is that an easy thing to do for you? What is the key to meeting new people? I guess you probably do in your line of work. Do you.

[Ina Garten]

You know, I think One of the things as we get older, Jeffrey and I are very conscious of, we're going to lose friends, and they're going to move to Florida or Tuscany or wherever they move. And it's important to stay connected to people, so we actually make an effort to meet new people just to make sure that we have a group of friends that we really care about.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Do you travel with friends?

[Ina Garten]

Yeah, we do. We actually spend a lot of time in Paris, so people come to Paris with us, which is just heaven.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Oh, nice.

[Ina Garten]

Yeah. So maybe one of these days, you and I should go to Paris together. We'd have a good time, go to the markets and get chicken and carrots and cook in my Paris kitchen.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Exactly. That would be very good.

[Ina Garten]

It'd be really fun. Do you speak French badly enough so I can converse with the grocer and the butcher. Yeah, yeah, I can get around.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

That's good.

[Ina Garten]

I wouldn't want to interest the un, Right?

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Exactly. I had the opportunity to meet President Macron last year. It was at a thing at the White House.

[Ina Garten]

Did you?

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah, because my grandfather was French and flew for the Free French during the.

[Ina Garten]

The war.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

He was a part of the Resistance. Yeah. And so I went over to Macron. I said something. You speak French well. Like you badly enough so that the first sentence or two sounds like, I know what I'm talking about. And the problem with that, of course, is that then they assume.

[Ina Garten]

Yeah. Understand the answer.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah. So Macron starts going, and I have no idea what the guy said to me, but I just kept shaking my head. So, anyway.

[Ina Garten]

I know that feeling.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah.

[Ina Garten]

You don't want to start it because you don't know exactly.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Totally, Completely. Oh, my God.

[Ina Garten]

My French has gotten in me a lot of trouble along the way, actually. Like, when we first had this apartment, I went to the hairdresser, and she said in French, which I understood, would you like it straight or curly? And I thought, oh, what the hell? It's Paris. Let's make it curly. So she gave me this curly hairdo, and I wanted to say to her, when my husband sees me, he's going to say, kiss me quick before my wife gets here. So I said, mon marie dit bessez moi vite Anna vasque ma familie. And she looked at me in horror, absolute horror, and I had no idea what I had said. So that night, I went out with some friends who speak perfect French, and I told them what I said, and he started to laugh, and he said, and Bess is a kiss, but Besse is something else entirely. And what you said was, my husband's gonna say, fuck me quick before my wife gets here. I never went back to that hairdresser.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

So she thought you were a brassy dame. I like it. I mean, actually, it's sort of a bet. It's almost a better expression. Fuck me quick before I get. That's great. And I love it. I'm going to remember that.

[Ina Garten]

So bad French can get you in trouble.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah, I guess so.

[Ina Garten]

Right?

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

That's really good. We have this thing at the end. I ask you a bunch of, like, quick questions, and you can choose to answer them or not, Whatever you feel like doing.

[Ina Garten]

Okay. I'm ready.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah, you're ready. Something you go back and tell yourself at 21.

[Ina Garten]

Don't worry about you. I'm gonna go off a cliff. It'll be fine. Yeah, it's the only way you'll get anywhere.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Keep jumping, keep jumping, keep jumping. Is there something you go back and say yes to?

[Ina Garten]

No. I think I've done everything I wanted to do.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

You said all the yeses that needed to be said.

[Ina Garten]

Yeah, I think so.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

This is good.

[Ina Garten]

Ina can't think of anything I said no to that I wish I'd said yes to. No.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Is there something you wanna tell me about aging? I mean, not that we're that far apart in age, but is there something you would. Is there some little tidbit that you could tell me about aging?

[Ina Garten]

Go for a walk twice a week. It'd be good for you.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Good. I like that.

[Ina Garten]

I think small changes over a long period of time makes a difference.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

What do you mean, small changes?

[Ina Garten]

You don't have to run a marathon. I think if you just take a walk twice a week, you'll be better off.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah, right.

[Ina Garten]

What are you looking forward to, going to Paris?

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah.

[Ina Garten]

Actually, Jeffrey and I decided, what are we waiting for? And we booked two trips that we've never done before.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Which ones?

[Ina Garten]

We're going to the Arctic and we're going to go on. I've gone on a safari, but not gone out. Out into the. You know, with the animals. So we booked a safari. So that's going to be fun.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

That'll be amazing. That's a life changer. I've been. I've done that. And it's.

[Ina Garten]

What did you see?

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Kind of everything.

[Ina Garten]

Everything. Wow.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah. And I do remember, though, at the time, speaking of having kids, we went when our kids were younger. I want to say they were like maybe 8 and 13. And we went. And our first night there and we're out in the plains there. And we were actually in tents, and our leader guy was saying, okay, now a couple rules around camp. There is no running. Nobody can run. And I thought to myself, oh, my God, what have we done? I have two rambunctious boys, and I have to. Now, for the next two weeks, they've got to sit the hell down. I thought, they're prey. These kids are prey.

[Ina Garten]

Oh, yes.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

The whole time I was in a panic. I mean, I had a good time, but it was still. I was, like, on the edge of my seat the whole time. Well, this has been such a treat to talk with you.

[Ina Garten]

And for me, too. Thank you so much, Julia.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

I'm such an admirer of yours and.

[Ina Garten]

An eye of yours. Thank you.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Wonderful.

[Ina Garten]

I hope to see you soon.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Me, too.

[Ina Garten]

Thanks.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Thank you. Okay, time to get my mom on this zoom call. I gotta tell her about this conversation. Hi, Mama.

[Ina Garten]

Hi, sweet.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

I just spoke with Ina Garten.

[Judith Bowles]

What a huge treat and a treasure to have time with her.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

I know, I know.

[Judith Bowles]

Why is she called the Barefoot Contessa?

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Because she worked in the White House and she was writing nuclear policy during the Carter administration. And her husband Jeffrey was also, I believe, in government. And anyway, at a certain point, she became uninterested in that work and she needed something to do. And Jeffrey said, you need to find something to do that's fun. And so she found this store in the Hamptons, a food specialty store called the Barefoot Contessa. And it was for sale and she bought it. She bought it.

[Judith Bowles]

Oh, my God. I thought, because it's such a great name.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

I know.

[Judith Bowles]

And you always think, oh, my God, this woman is. You know, she said she's a countess, but. But on the other hand, she doesn't. I mean, she's not at all like a royal, you know, she'.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

No, not at all. Except she has. There is something about her that's quite, I think, rarefied in terms of her approach to food and making it accessible for everybody that is unusual what she's done. But something I found really interesting, Mommy, is that she got married when she was 20. She's been married for 55 years. And she made a decision when she got married that she was not going to have kids. And this was based on the fact that she had a very difficult childhood. She did not have a lot of joy as a child. She didn't have much agency, and she couldn't really make decisions for herself. And so she made the choice not to have kids, which really strikes me as Something to remark on. Because nowadays to make that decision is one thing, but to make that decision in the late 60s, early 70s is extraordinary. Right? Yeah. I mean, like for you, mom, in the period of time when you were having kids, did it ever occur to you not to have kids?

[Judith Bowles]

Never. Never. It's almost like, did the sun come up, you had kids? I mean, it was just like that. I mean, it never occurred to me. But I remember one couple that we knew who didn't have children and what they did, they got into rose gardening. And so they, they spent a tremendous amount of time on the rose garden and studying roses and all kinds. So they, they plowed themselves into the world in a certain way. And I always thought to myself, that's that, that's their, their compensation. And actually, when you girls all left home, that's when I started really gardening with a passion. And I thinking that it's a. There's something maternal in the nurturing and nature that is a compensation for having children to take care of. But for her, she found a way to be a mother through food and through nurturing the world. And that's a great gift.

[Ina Garten]

Right?

[Judith Bowles]

Right. Yeah.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah. It's exciting to know where she came from and how she's taken what was a hardship and turned it into an enormous strength. Hey, speaking of recipes, there's one food that Ina Garten hates and it's cilantro.

[Judith Bowles]

Some people hate cilantro. And I mean, I would say like, like 12% of America hates cilantro. Explain that to me.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

You explained to me where you got that statistic from.

[Judith Bowles]

Well, I made it up. But, but, but you know what I'm.

[Ina Garten]

Saying about it is that, that, you.

[Judith Bowles]

Know, you have to check with people about cilantro because some people hate it.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah, that's right. And she says that if there's even a tiny leaf, it really, really bothers her. And I personally cannot get enough cilantro.

[Judith Bowles]

Same, same for me. But people absolutely say I can't eat it.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

When we have Ina and Jeffrey over, we won't be making things with cilantro.

[Judith Bowles]

We will pretend it doesn't exist.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Oh, well, wait a minute. Actually, we just looked this up and there's actually a genetic reason that some people think cilantro tastes like soap. These particular people have a variation in a group of. We just looked this up. Olfactory receptor genes that allows them to strongly produce. Perceive the soapy flavored aldehydes in cilantro leaves. So Ina must have that gene. And it turns out, mom, that it's present in about 4 to 14% of the U.S. population. So your made up bullshit statistic was spot on.

[Judith Bowles]

Okay, where did I come up with 12%? That's hysterical.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

I don't know. You pulled that out of your ass and you were right. Okay, okay.

[Judith Bowles]

Love you, honey.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Love you, Mommy. I'll see you tomorrow, okay?

[Judith Bowles]

Oh, yeah.

[Ina Garten]

Exactly.

[Judith Bowles]

Travel safely.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Goodbye. Love you. There's More Wiser Than Me with Lemonada Premium subscribers get exclusive access to bonus content from each episode of the show. Subscribe now in Apple Podcasts. Make sure you're following Wiser Than Me on social media. We're on Instagram and TikTok at wiser than Me and we're on Facebook at Wiser Than Me podcast. Wiser Than Me is a production of Lemonada Media, created and hosted by me, Julia Louis Dreyfus. This show is produced by Chrissy Pull, Jamila, Zarah Williams, Alex McGowan and Oha Lopez. Brad hall is a consulting producer, Rachel Neal is VP of New content, and our SVP of weekly content and production is Steve Nelson. Executive producers are Paula Kaplan, Stephanie Whittles, Wax, Jessica Cordova, Kramer and me. The show is mixed by Johnny Vince Evans with engineering help from James Sparber and our music was written by by Henry hall, who you can also find on Spotify or wherever you listen to your music. Special thanks to Will Schlegel and of course my mother, Judith Bowles. Follow Wiser Than Me wherever you get your podcasts. And if there's a wise old lady in your life, listen up.