← This Life of Mine with James Corden
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- [00:00]
Podcast Host
Regular listeners of this life of mine will know that really on the show often we talk about great moments in people's lives, whether that's great memories or people that they love or songs or films. But you know and I know that life isn't always full of just great moments. And we all have times when everything just kind of piles up, whether that's work or family, friendships, relationships, whatever it might be. And you think, I think I might need to speak to somebody. I had one of those stretches fairly recently actually, and I'm away from home at the moment. I'm working in New York. And I tried to find a therapist online and honestly, it was hopeless. Every therapist I found, they were either fully booked or they were out of network or they were charging prices, which made me think, sorry, does this come with a yacht? And I remember thinking, it really shouldn't be this hard. Affordable, accessible mental health care shouldn't be something that's out of reach. But too often it is. And look, if we use insurance for physical health, why shouldn't our mental health get the same treatment? And that's exactly why I love what Ruler is doing. Here's the deal with Ruler. Most online therapy platforms don't work with insurance at all, which means you'll be stuck paying out of pocket or signing up for some incredibly expensive monthly subscription. But Ruler does it differently. They partner with over 100 insurance plans, which means the average copay is just $15 a session. And Ruler doesn't just match you with the first available therapist, they actually take the time to understand your goals. And then they will give you a curated list of therapists who are in network and genuinely aligned with what it is that you need. So if you go to ruler.com lifeofmind you can get started today. That's R U L A.com lifeofmine for quality therapy that is covered by insurance. There are no wait lists, no endless emails. Ruler helps you find someone who is available as soon as tomorrow. Because finding the right therapist, well, that could be life changing. Thousands of people are already using Rula to get affordable, high quality therapy that is actually covered by insurance. So if you visit ruler.comlifeofmind you can get started straight away. And after you sign up, they're gonna ask you how you heard about them. And it would be great if you could support our show and let them know that we sent you the that's r u l a.com lifeofmine. You deserve mental healthcare that works with you, not against your budget.
- [02:56]
Sponsor Voice
This podcast is brought to you by Wise, the app for international people using money around the globe. With Wise, you can send, spend and receive up to 40 currencies with only a few simple taps. Whether you're buying souvenirs with pesos and Puerto Vallarta or or sending Euros to a loved one in Paris, you know you're getting a fair exchange rate with no extra markups. That's what makes WISE the fast, affordable way to use your money around the globe. WISE offers 24.7live support and runs over 7 million daily checks to catch and prevent fraud, so you know your money is where it's supposed to be. Be smart Join the 15 million customers who choose Wise Wise. Download the Wise app today or visit wise.com Learn more by visiting wise.com us/compare t's and c's. Apply.
- [03:57]
Judd Apatow
Lemonada.
- [04:01]
David Duchovny
Hey, just a quick message before we get started. You can now listen to every episode of Fail Better Ad Free with Lemonada Premium on Apple Podcasts. You'll also get ad free access to and exclusive bonus content from shows like Wiser Than Me with Julia Louis Dreyfus, the Sarah Silverman Podcast, and so many more. It's just $5.99 a month and a great way to support the work we do. Go ad free and get bonus content when you hit subscribe on this show in Apple Podcasts make life Suck Less with fewer ads with Lemonada Premium Foreign. Duchovny and this is Fail Better, A show where failure, not success, shapes who we are. Judd Apatow is a director, writer and producer whose style and humor came to shape an entire generation of comedy films and TV. Judd's new book, Comedy Nerd, releases Oct. 28. We chat about humor, honesty, and of course, a whole lot of failure. Here's our conversation. Judd, thanks for talking to me.
- [05:15]
Judd Apatow
Happy to.
- [05:16]
David Duchovny
Although you once told me you're going to regret this. You once said I say yes to every podcast.
- [05:25]
Judd Apatow
Even that rule I had to change because I didn't realize how many would come at you. And you don't even have to be a good guest. Everyone just needs guests desperately.
- [05:35]
David Duchovny
It is a bit of a game. I wanted to read something from the new book.
- [05:39]
Judd Apatow
Okay.
- [05:39]
David Duchovny
Yeah, great. What's it called?
- [05:41]
Judd Apatow
It's called Comedy Nerd. Which is. It's a. It's a scrapbook autobiography. So yeah, photos and memorabilia with little essays and it's.
- [05:50]
David Duchovny
Well, one of the things I found interesting I didn't know about you was you claim to be a hoarder. You know that you.
- [05:56]
Judd Apatow
I do have some hoarding tendencies.
- [05:58]
David Duchovny
Yeah. And I. And. And that this. This book, because of all these pictures that you're using in the book of. You're exfoliating. You're trying to exfoliate your soul here.
- [06:09]
Judd Apatow
Well, I had about half a million photos.
- [06:11]
David Duchovny
Half a million photos that you had.
- [06:13]
Judd Apatow
Taken or that was just inputted at some point. And I have just saved everything since I was a kid. I have a photo in the book of my closet when I was a kid, where I have all my little autographs and memorabilia and tons of pictures of the who on the wall. And then, you know, I always say, it's not hoarding if your shit's awesome. It's just having awesome shit.
- [06:36]
David Duchovny
Well, where do you think it comes from?
- [06:38]
Judd Apatow
I don't know, because it started really young of, like, treasuring things.
- [06:43]
David Duchovny
And then it's not just like a baseball card collection.
- [06:45]
Judd Apatow
And, well, the beginning, it was like, oh, I got the autograph, Mets ball. I had, like, a Dave Kingman signed bat. And then I got some autographs. I used to write every celebrity in the world to just see who would send me something.
- [06:59]
David Duchovny
You did.
- [06:59]
Judd Apatow
And I would just spend hours alone in my room in, like, fourth, fifth grade just writing Merv Griffin and Mike Douglas letters. And I remember I got Paul Lynn's autograph. And then I just. Just thought, I'm gonna send him another letter, see if he does it again. And then suddenly, I had, like, five Paul in autographs. And people, you know, they'd auto pen you, or every once in a while, you get a real one. Like, I had, like, a really good Andy Kaufman autograph photo. And on the back, he wrote a letter, which was so weird because he signed the front and the back. He wrote, dear Judd, thank you so much for. You know, here's an autographed photo for you. Like, it was completely unnecessary.
- [07:34]
David Duchovny
It must have been early. Early in his career.
- [07:36]
Judd Apatow
Yeah. Taxi days.
- [07:37]
David Duchovny
Yeah. Because I remember at the beginning of the X Files, they used to send me fan letters, and I would sit on the weekends and I would answer, because there were. There weren't that many.
- [07:45]
Judd Apatow
Yeah.
- [07:45]
David Duchovny
You know, there were 25 or 100.
- [07:47]
Judd Apatow
Yeah.
- [07:47]
David Duchovny
And I'd sit there, and I'd actually write them back. But what I think of when somebody is not hoarding, but, like, keeping those kinds of things, there's a great bit in a book, I think a James Joyce book, where he talks about. He says, stephen Dedalus, such and such. Street. Such and such city, the earth, the universe. It feels like you're trying to place yourself. It feels like you're trying to weigh yourself down with some kind of ballast. That's what I think. And as a kid, it's very moving to think of you that way. That way.
- [08:22]
Judd Apatow
Well, you can't. You can't die if you still have magazines to read.
- [08:25]
David Duchovny
Is that right?
- [08:27]
Judd Apatow
So I still have a 1992 Bono interview in Rolling Stone I can get to. So I don't think God will take me before then.
- [08:33]
David Duchovny
I'm sorry I'm keeping you from that. But, yeah, it's moving to me. And that's why I found the book to be emotional in some way. And I wanted to read this bit.
- [08:48]
Judd Apatow
Okay.
- [08:49]
David Duchovny
It's probably the very end. Yes. Farewell. I've worked on this book for a few years. It's emotional getting to the end of this process. I've always been a hoarder. That's where I got it from. And I have hoped that completing this project will allow me to finally throw out a hundred boxes of stuff that I always thought essential in case I might do something like this one day. What do I think when I look through the book first? I think, man, that is a lot of stuff. What the hell is wrong with you? How insecure and needy and broken are you that the only way to deal with. With it was to create this mountain of work? So it's work in a way, too. So you knew at some point you're going to have to get through it.
- [09:25]
Judd Apatow
Yeah.
- [09:26]
David Duchovny
Was it a healthy expression of your creativity or as Gary used to say, shandling the essence of your soul? So is it evidence of a pathology or is it evidence of a creativity? I think is what you're asking.
- [09:40]
Judd Apatow
And I'm also talking about even just the projects, not just the book project, but also all the projects. Is it just an expression of the deep hole you're trying to fill? How much work do you have to do to feel better about yourself? And how much of it is pure expression and creativity and light? And how much of it is from a trauma response of some sort?
- [10:04]
David Duchovny
Well, I mean, walking through the office, it's my first time here, I was struck by the amount of work that you've done, you know, And I wonder if you. If you ever just take stock of it that way. Yeah, you've done a lot of. A lot. Not a lot of shit.
- [10:19]
Judd Apatow
Yeah.
- [10:20]
David Duchovny
You know what I'm saying?
- [10:20]
Judd Apatow
Some shit.
- [10:21]
David Duchovny
A lot of shit, Judd. But I'm struck by the energy that it takes to have done that and the wide ranging kind of interest from documentary to mentoring other people to do their Work, producing, and also your own work. So you question it as either coming from a pathology or an insecurity or as coming from some kind of light creativity. And I wonder if you can ever really make that distinction. And can you make that distinction between work. So you go, like, later you go, oh, fuck, that was the wrong place that that came from.
- [10:53]
Judd Apatow
I mean, I feel good about the fact that I always do things that I. That I assume will come out well or have the potential to. Like. I don't really do anything, like, to sell out for a job or for money. And I'm not even sure why, but that's just always been my way that if I'm not really passionate about it, I won't do it. But it is a lot of stuff, and it's almost comically too much stuff. It's comically too much stuff that you've done.
- [11:17]
Podcast Host
Yeah.
- [11:17]
Judd Apatow
And there is no way to know about the motivations, because I do think it's always both. There's always a pure motivation, and there's always a weird, insecure motivation to just keep working. And you have moments where you feel good about what you do and confident. But for the most part, the reason that you work hard is you have just enough doubt to make you continue to work really hard.
- [11:41]
David Duchovny
But isn't it also that you don't really know what that thing is that you're trying to make until you make it?
- [11:47]
Judd Apatow
Yeah, it's so weird.
- [11:48]
David Duchovny
So I just have this itch like, I'm gonna do that thing. I'm not exactly sure why. Maybe it's funny. Maybe I like that guy.
- [11:55]
Judd Apatow
Yeah.
- [11:55]
David Duchovny
But then you find out it's a different cause, a different reason.
- [11:58]
Judd Apatow
I mean, I remember Jim Carrey used to talk about that he felt like these projects would come into his life because he was needing to think about this thing. And someone else, you know, said, you know, you write the movie to figure out why you're writing the movie.
- [12:11]
David Duchovny
Yeah.
- [12:12]
Judd Apatow
And there have been movies that I've made where, like, years after they're done, it occurs to me why I wanted to do it.
- [12:19]
David Duchovny
Right.
- [12:20]
Judd Apatow
And a lot of them are, like, almost like letters to myself or letters to other people trying to explain something or work through something. And so at some point I realized, oh, that must be. That must be what's happening. And Gary Shandling was the first person that talked about any of this to you? Yeah, because when I started, I was just writing jokes. I didn't really think anything about story. But Gary talked about mining his own neuroses and his own issues for stories. And I just never heard it. I mean, I knew that. I guess on another level, I'd watched Diner, and I knew it was personal, and things were fast. Times at Ridgemont High was based on Cameron Crowe going to high school and writing a book about it. But watching Gary do it and go, oh, Gary's conflicted about being famous. And he has this TV show about this person who really wants to be a big star and the most successful host. And this conflict of, is this healthy or not healthy consumes Gary enough to make six years of a TV show.
- [13:21]
David Duchovny
About it and five years talking about it afterwards.
- [13:24]
Judd Apatow
Exactly. Yeah. And making DVDs and just going deeper into that world. Yeah, yeah. So for me, it took me a while to try to figure out, like, well, how would I do that in my work? That it would become more personal. Because in the beginning, I just wrote for other people, and I would try to think like Gary or try to think like Roseanne. And it took a long time for me to go, okay, but what would I talk about?
- [13:47]
David Duchovny
What was that first step? What was that?
- [13:50]
Judd Apatow
Probably, I mean, in a weird way, it happens in the steps. Like, Heavyweights was like a silly summer camp for overweight boys movie. But it was the beginning of talking about feeling like a weird kid and wanting respect in some way. And then when I worked with Paul Feig on Freaks and Geeks, we all kind of mined all of our childhood traumas and would just put them into different episodes, like watching Paul do it, because Paul was amazing, because he remembered every detail of childhood, every terrible thing that ever happened to him. He had total recall of it, and he would tell some story and it would be so humiliating, and it was always the same. Afterwards, we would say, and how old were you when that happened? Like, 13. And he would always go 18. He was always much older than he thought in the story. And so his courage to write about it, to see that up close, this was right after Larry Sanders was also a big inspiration because he really opened up. And then the staff started opening up about all their problems in high school.
- [14:55]
David Duchovny
And the kids, too, the actors in it.
- [14:57]
Judd Apatow
Oh, yeah, yeah, everybody.
- [14:59]
David Duchovny
I guess it's a great feeling about that set. It seems like it was a great set to be on.
- [15:03]
Judd Apatow
It was. It definitely was. I mean, because Paul was an actor, and so a lot of it was about treating everyone the way people, the way Paul wished people treated him.
- [15:13]
David Duchovny
Right.
- [15:14]
Judd Apatow
So he was, you know, a journeyman supporting actor who had a lot of experiences that were fun and not fun and So I think, like, we made a point of like, treating everyone great.
- [15:25]
David Duchovny
Had you ever been interested in acting?
- [15:28]
Judd Apatow
I, you know, I never really pursued it. I joined, like, the school play. And then my grandfather died in the middle and I had to go to California to, like, deal with it. So then I didn't do that.
- [15:41]
David Duchovny
He died in the middle of the.
- [15:42]
Judd Apatow
Actual play in California. He died while we were rehearsing this play. And then I was going to join the Groundlings.
- [15:50]
David Duchovny
You were?
- [15:51]
Judd Apatow
But I was doing stand up and they said, well, you have to be here for three months or four months to take the class. And I had been offered to go on the road at all the improvs around the country. And I thought, well, I've been working for years to get the improv to let me do this. And so I didn't do that. And then at one point, I had a commercial agent.
- [16:12]
David Duchovny
You did?
- [16:13]
Judd Apatow
And so I went out for commercials and I was such a bad actor that once I was going out for a Jack in the Box commercial and I'm supposed to do this monologue about this cheeseburger. And I just kept pointing. I'm just kept pointing the whole time. And the guy's like, okay, do it again. Don't point. And then I, halfway through, I just couldn't help but point. And then he took out a big thing of duct tape and he taped my hand to my leg so that I wouldn't point. And then I never went out on an audition ever again. Like, I laughed at the time, but I think I was like, fully just humiliated. Like, oh, you're the worst actor in the world.
- [16:51]
David Duchovny
That's a horrible experience.
- [16:53]
Judd Apatow
It was a terrible experience.
- [16:55]
David Duchovny
Have you ever duct taped an actor's hand?
- [16:57]
Judd Apatow
As a director, it works for me.
- [16:59]
David Duchovny
I'm happy that you never duct taped me. You know, looking around at all your posters, I was like, fuck. You know, we just didn't. We didn't do enough. No, honestly, I always. I had always wanted to. And then when we did the bubble, because I did TV set where I portrayed you. I don't think people know.
- [17:14]
Judd Apatow
Yeah. That you portrayed a version.
- [17:16]
David Duchovny
It's really a biopic.
- [17:19]
Judd Apatow
It might have been like a little Mike White, a little Jake in there, but there was definitely a lot of Judd.
- [17:22]
David Duchovny
Mostly Judd. But the weird thing was is that you may not remember this, but we did the table read for the TV set. And that night was the premiere of the 40 Year Old Virgin.
- [17:34]
Judd Apatow
Oh, wow.
- [17:36]
David Duchovny
So you actually. That was a pivotal day in your life. So I went from basically Playing Judd that nobody knows.
- [17:44]
Judd Apatow
Yeah.
- [17:45]
David Duchovny
To you becoming adjectival, you know, like almost overnight.
- [17:50]
Judd Apatow
Yeah.
- [17:50]
David Duchovny
And I would, I would have played it differently if I know you were gonna get well.
- [17:55]
Judd Apatow
You had the bad back.
- [17:56]
David Duchovny
I had the bad back.
- [17:57]
Judd Apatow
Justin Bateman and his wife.
- [17:59]
David Duchovny
I had a beard. I had a bad.
- [17:59]
Judd Apatow
Yeah, that movie was really good. Should hunt that down the TV set.
- [18:13]
Podcast Host
One Christmas, my house was like a holiday movie. But not a good holiday movie. Relatives were arriving. I was wrapping presents with one hand, drinking mulled wine in the other, staring at a turkey, hoping that it will cook before my mother in law passes out drunk for the rest of the day. It was absolute chaos. And that's where Cachava saved me. Now I might still be in my pajamas, but with one shake I've got whole body nutrition covered. Some mornings I throw in frozen berries and almond milk. Other days I add a bit of peanut butter or iced coffee. My current go to is chocolate but with six flavors. Chocolate, vanilla, chai, matcha, coconut, acai, strawberry, chocolate. You really can't miss you scoop blend done. You've got a superfood packed shake in under a minute. And yes, of course I'm stealing all of these recipes from the Cacava kitchen and the results I have to tell you are amazing. I have energy all day thanks to key vitamins and minerals digestion is happy with all the fiber, probiotics and enzymes. I'm strong with protein and electrolytes. My metabolism supported with B vitamins. My mind feels sharp. It's a whole body meal with 25 grams of 100% plant based protein. No artificial flavors or sweeteners, no soy, no gluten, no animal products, no preservatives. And you can try it risk free with Cachava's love it guarantee calm the holiday chaos. Go to kachava.com and use the code lifeofmine for 15% off your next order. That's Cachava. K A C H A Z. Code life of mine for 15% off. Regular listeners of this life of mine will know that really on the show often we talk about great moments in people's lives, whether that's great memories or people that they love or songs or films. But you know and I know that life isn't always full of just great moments. And we all have times when everything just kind of piles up, whether that's work or family, friendships, relationships, whatever it might be. And you think. I think I might need to speak to somebody. I had one of those stretches fairly recently actually and I'm away from home. At the moment, I'm working in New York and I tried to find a therapist online and honestly, it was hopeless. Every therapist I found, they were either fully booked or they were out of network or they were charging prices, which made me think, sorry, does this come with a yacht? And I remember thinking, it really shouldn't be this hard. Affordable, accessible mental health care shouldn't be something that's out of reach. But too often it is. And look, if we use insurance for physical health, why shouldn't our mental health get the same treatment? And that's exactly why I love what Ruler is doing. Here's the deal with Ruler. Most online therapy platforms don't work with insurance at all, which means you'll be stuck paying out of pocket or signing up for some incredibly expensive monthly subscription. But Ruler does it differently. They partner with over 100 insurance plans, which means the average copay is just $15 a session. And Ruler doesn't just match you with the first available therapist, they actually take the time to understand your go. And then they will give you a curated list of therapists who are in network and genuinely aligned with what it is that you need. So if you go to ruler.com lifeofmine you can get started today. That's R U L A.com lifeofmine for quality therapy that is covered by insurance. There are no wait lists, no endless emails. Ruler helps you find someone who is available as soon as tomorrow. Because finding the right therapist, well, that could be life changing. Thousands of people are already using Ruler to get affordable, high quality therapy that is actually covered by insurance. So if you visit ruler.comlifeofmind you can get started straight away. And after you sign up, they're gonna ask you how you heard about them. And it would be great if you could support our show and let them know that we sent you. That's r u l a.com lifeofmind you deserve mental healthcare that works with you, not against your budget.
- [23:10]
Sponsor Voice
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- [24:37]
David Duchovny
You know, you mentioned Gary, and he's a big influence in both of our lives, obviously. And there's something about the man that. That is sustaining even to this day, you know, and he was a Buddhist, I guess you'd call him. And I wonder how you both square. You know, I don't associate Buddhism with hilarity, you know, and I wonder if there was ever a fear for you as I'm going down this road with Gary, you, you know, into Buddhism. And I don't know what your. The extent of your involvement with Buddhism is or meditation or anything like that, but I wonder if there was that sense of, oh, if I get. If I get clear on this, if I start feeling good, am I going to be funny anymore?
- [25:21]
Judd Apatow
Yeah.
- [25:22]
David Duchovny
Am I gonna. Am I gonna be able to do my.
- [25:24]
Judd Apatow
I never really thought about that because I always feel so far away from that level of calm.
- [25:28]
David Duchovny
Yeah.
- [25:28]
Judd Apatow
That. It's just so far away that even if I can get, like, a moment of calm, it's a big deal. But the.
- [25:36]
David Duchovny
The baseline Buddhism doesn't work.
- [25:38]
Judd Apatow
It's basically not the way. I'm not the way I'm running it. Like, I went on my. I have, like, an app. I literally. I'll get every single app for meditation.
- [25:47]
Podcast Host
Right.
- [25:47]
Judd Apatow
I'll have the Calm app and the 10 Happier app and the Waking up app. I mean, I have so many of them. And I went on one of the apps and it like, you could hit a button. It'll tell you, like, all the times you've used it.
- [25:56]
David Duchovny
Yeah.
- [25:57]
Judd Apatow
To meditate. And it was literally like three times in the last six years on this one app. I'm like, yeah, I'm really not walking the. Yeah. Walking the walk.
- [26:05]
David Duchovny
I've kind of. I've kind of been delinquent recently because I'll. I'll save my meditation for when I'm lying down to go to sleep.
- [26:11]
Judd Apatow
Yeah.
- [26:13]
David Duchovny
It's actually my sleep app.
- [26:14]
Judd Apatow
It's not my meditation straight up Focused. But yeah, I don't. I do have that fear of not being funny because I think the thing about not being funny is when you become unfunny, you don't know it really. And that to me, like, when you think of like the scariest thoughts you can have, that's like a really scary thought.
- [26:32]
David Duchovny
What would cause you to be unfunny? Would culture changed or something like that? Do you see yourself as, do you see funny as being tied to any kind of decade or culture, cultural moment?
- [26:41]
Judd Apatow
Well, you could look at it as like a youthful thing or like the perspective of like, what's it like to be 20 right now versus 57 and maybe you're just not picking up on some sort of sea change of culture.
- [26:53]
David Duchovny
Well, sure, but do you want to write what's funny for 20 year olds or do you want to write what's funny for 57 year olds at this.
- [26:59]
Judd Apatow
Point in their life? Yeah, I guess I try not to think about it too much because I still want to work with people who are much younger than me.
- [27:07]
David Duchovny
Sorry for the question.
- [27:09]
Judd Apatow
In Stand up, I've been doing this joke where I say this is a worse age to be a comedian because you can only talk about decay. So all your jokes are, you know, don't you hate it when your girlfriends from high school start dying of natural causes? You know, like, it's like the most unfun age to write about. So you want to still have younger people to collaborate with.
- [27:31]
David Duchovny
Yeah, yeah. But in terms of like your soul questions, the kind of impulses that you mentioned drive you to certain things, I would think that that changes. I mean, I understand wanting an audience, but I also think like your concerns change and your, your, your self conception changes and what, your, what your soul needs and the work changes. So there's got to be some kind of a give and take.
- [27:55]
Judd Apatow
Well, no matter what happens, you slowly start writing like old Bob Dylan, you know, like, like you don't want to. But before you know it all your. Everything you're thinking about is like, I'm walking through streets that are dead. You just start, you know, you're headed into like your, your old guy writing. You have to kind of like push against it. You know, I always laugh about Loud Wainwright, who, you know, he was undeclared and he scored knocked up and genius folk singer, but he's been writing songs about dying since he was like 45 years old. It's like it's been so long he's been in that period of obsessing on Mortality. So you do want to not just feel like, okay, I wrote about high school. I wrote about college. I wrote about young marriage. I wrote about longer marriage. That you can go back and visit different periods.
- [28:41]
David Duchovny
Well, I mean, you can see it in, like, musicians when they. When they kind of mature their. Their work. Like.
- [28:49]
Judd Apatow
Yeah.
- [28:50]
David Duchovny
The Stones are never. They're always going to write about making out in a car.
- [28:53]
Judd Apatow
Yeah.
- [28:54]
David Duchovny
And they're 85.
- [28:55]
Judd Apatow
Yeah.
- [28:55]
David Duchovny
But somebody like Springsteen and I think the people that you gravitate towards musically, which is a big part of your life, I think you do. You don't ask them to stay in the same spot.
- [29:06]
Judd Apatow
Yeah. Like, that's you.
- [29:07]
David Duchovny
Like, when they're changing.
- [29:08]
Judd Apatow
I love that Springsteen wrote about, you know, his first band and that everyone in his first band had died. He realized he was the last man standing, and he wrote an album about that.
- [29:19]
David Duchovny
So that was his joke. Doesn't it suck when your bandmates start dying of natural cause?
- [29:24]
Judd Apatow
We can't help but do it. Although I remember Norman Lear used to always say to me, I feel like I'm the age of the person I'm with. And I always thought that that was a great way to look at it.
- [29:35]
David Duchovny
Yeah. Delusional, but great.
- [29:37]
Judd Apatow
Exactly.
- [29:38]
David Duchovny
Yeah.
- [29:38]
Judd Apatow
It kept his spirit hot.
- [29:40]
David Duchovny
Yeah. I want to finish this quote, though.
- [29:42]
Judd Apatow
Okay.
- [29:43]
David Duchovny
Where is it? Where was I?
- [29:47]
Judd Apatow
You were.
- [29:48]
David Duchovny
Or was it a desperate cry for help from a person that never feels whole, whose pain and trauma never eases, and who needs to numb himself with busyness and accomplishment? Well, I think we covered that.
- [29:58]
Judd Apatow
Yeah.
- [30:00]
David Duchovny
I think it is all of that. And does the answer to that question really matter? I never felt like I had another choice. I still don't. Because underneath all the healthy and unhealthy reasons for working and expressing myself is a love for comedy and the people who make it. I feel blessed that I got to create and have fun with so many amazing people. And I hope that continues going forward, at least in a slightly less neurotic way. What would that mean, a slightly less neurotic way?
- [30:25]
Judd Apatow
Well, I'm always interested. Can I access my creativity without all the stages of, oh, here we go. We gotta. We gotta write down. Right. So, like, it might take me a while to, like, sit down to write, because there's that part of your brain that's like, what if it's not there today? What if it never comes back? Like, to have less of that kind of anxiety and neuroses around it where you could just kind of plug in and just kind of get there and. And not really think about the stakes, because the stakes are all in your head and it's all kind of probably just some misfiring.
- [31:00]
David Duchovny
What are the stakes?
- [31:01]
Judd Apatow
I mean, the stakes are.
- [31:02]
David Duchovny
People aren't going to laugh.
- [31:03]
Judd Apatow
Yeah, I mean, the stakes are whatever. It doesn't work. People don't like it. Public humiliation. You cost someone a lot of money that invested in you, maybe they won't let you make the next one at some point. But I always had that theory that you need three really bad bombs in a row to be kicked out of the business. You need the first bomb, then they give you another one, and then if that bombs, they might give you another one with a lower budget.
- [31:23]
David Duchovny
Three in a row?
- [31:24]
Judd Apatow
Yeah, three in a row. I think you need three big ones in a row, and then you're probably. Probably done. Although every once in a while, someone has a movie that's bad in such a weird way that people lose complete faith in that person. And they sometimes just work.
- [31:38]
David Duchovny
They just got one.
- [31:38]
Judd Apatow
Just one. But it's. It's so weird that they don't believe you'll ever get back on the track. Right. You know, so I don't have an example of a person that had that. But I have seen.
- [31:48]
David Duchovny
Because they've been forgotten.
- [31:50]
Judd Apatow
Yeah, they have their. They're gone, they're raised, or whatever it is that people go, like, how did he ever even think that could work? You know, but you have to do things that are risky or you're, you know, you're doing the same thing every time. So that's a weird thing with old comedy is nothing about it. Nothing about working has a better chance of succeeding because the last one succeeded. Each one.
- [32:13]
David Duchovny
Say that again.
- [32:14]
Judd Apatow
Each one. Each thing you do is such an experiment that the last one working has absolutely nothing to do in helping you make this one work.
- [32:20]
David Duchovny
This is some kind of an illusion. I mean, to get back to, like, what we talk about on this podcast all the time is like, success is the worst thing that can happen to you in many ways.
- [32:29]
Judd Apatow
Yeah, yeah, yeah. In terms of just being creativity loose, you have to make a real conscious choice to be like Neil Young and go, I don't give a shit. I'm gonna go. I'm doing electronic right now. Or I'm not gonna let you define me. I'm gonna keep going where my imagination.
- [32:44]
David Duchovny
Takes yourself at that point. Have you ever done something in that vein?
- [32:49]
Judd Apatow
No, I don't think so. I mean, I think I'm really careful about. All right, do you really want to think about this for Two, three years. Because every time you do it, it's a multi year commitment. So I usually, if anything, I'm not doing things because I'm afraid it's going to be like something that I've done before or too easy. Not easy and just like a premise I think might work. It has to be something deeper, wants to be talked about. Even the bubble, which is like, silly. But during COVID me and my friend Brent Foster, we would take walks in Malibu and we were like, let's just outline movies just for the hell of it, because we're bored, really. And it kept coming up this like the nervous breakdown everyone was going to have from COVID about their success and their egos and what do you do? And like, all the things that make you feel like you have value are just gone and no one cares at all about them. So even that, which was like a silly movie meant to be watched, like when you're just high or something, that was like the thing below it, like, oh, everyone's ego is being messed with because they're just like stuck in this building.
- [33:59]
David Duchovny
Yeah. Do you have a kind of personal criteria about success and failure? Is it just your gut? Oh, I'm watching this movie and I'm laughing at it. This movie that I made.
- [34:10]
Judd Apatow
Well, I remember a long time ago, I read an interview with Alec Baldwin and he was saying, you have to have your own personal compass on whether or not a project was successful. And that was the first time I ever really heard someone explain it in that way. And once I remember Warren Beatty was with Shandling and he said to me, you really don't know if what you've done is good for about 10 years after, where you see if it survived in the culture and did anyone care about it and just how is it holding up? And that's really revealed itself to be true where there were things in the moment where we would take a beating, like the cable guy or something, and then suddenly it would be, you know, 30 years later and like people are still talking about it and you realize, like, people really like it. But those few reviewers or the box office that devastated you, where you really took a year to recover from it was just wrong that, that. Oh, we did pull that off at least, you know, for a certain amount of people who appreciated it. And that's happened a bunch of times where, you know, something like the movie Walk Hard or like Parody of Ray and Walk the Line, where, I mean, it made like 2.9 million opening weekend. So it was like you didn't Even know that was possible.
- [35:20]
David Duchovny
Right.
- [35:20]
Judd Apatow
And then.
- [35:21]
David Duchovny
Oh, I know that.
- [35:24]
Judd Apatow
And then suddenly it's like 10, 15 years later, and like, oh, people watch that all the time. People are always walking up to me. They still write articles about it. And so now, as a result of that. But I don't get as affected when things come out because I understand they have a weird life where they kind of bop around the world and they develop some kind of reputation or not.
- [35:47]
David Duchovny
Well, it happened with Zoolander for sure.
- [35:49]
Judd Apatow
Yeah.
- [35:49]
David Duchovny
Yeah. I mean, it just didn't do well when it came out.
- [35:53]
Judd Apatow
That was a few weeks after 9, 11.
- [35:55]
David Duchovny
Yeah.
- [35:55]
Judd Apatow
It was not tough spot. It was, like, weird for a comedy to come out. Even that there was a comedy. And it was like, can you, like, are we ready to, like, laugh at all at anything?
- [36:06]
David Duchovny
Apparently not.
- [36:07]
Judd Apatow
Well, your scene's held up. You had the hand, the whole thing.
- [36:11]
David Duchovny
The serious scene.
- [36:12]
Judd Apatow
Yeah, but, like, people talk about Zoolander now as part of the canon of great things and.
- [36:18]
David Duchovny
The canon of great things. I like that. I like that. Should be your next book. The canon of great things.
- [36:22]
Judd Apatow
And you see that now. Like, you'd look at whatever the last, you know, whatever 30, 40 years where we've been doing things like, oh, here are the ones that people care about.
- [36:30]
David Duchovny
Right.
- [36:30]
Judd Apatow
And it doesn't even matter if Zoolander opened. It's like, people watch it now, like, it was made this week and love it, and it holds up. And I always say they become like the wizard of Oz. They're just these things that, like, oh, those are the survivors.
- [36:43]
David Duchovny
Has any criticism ever cut you in a way that was longstanding to you, or did you ever learn anything from a perceived failure or a perceived criticism?
- [36:54]
Judd Apatow
I was so mad at Siskel and Ebert for not liking heavyweights. My first bad reviews were. You're like, oh, God. And then the cable guy reviews. I really thought they would be raves because I thought, oh, they're gonna be so psyched. Jim's doing something different, taking a risk. And then as I was, like, getting in the car to go to the premiere, someone handed me two faxes.
- [37:13]
David Duchovny
Yeah, thank you.
- [37:14]
Judd Apatow
Who's that person with the Time and Newsweek reviews? And they were both brutal. I'm like, what? Like, I thought it was gonna be, like, amazing.
- [37:24]
David Duchovny
Where were you going?
- [37:25]
Judd Apatow
To the premiere. And then I was just, like, in a fog the whole premiere, like, right. Oh, no, this is all gonna go really badly.
- [37:32]
David Duchovny
Totally bifurcated.
- [37:34]
Judd Apatow
And every time, every once while someone writes something in a review that just, like, they just find the thing that Hurts you the most.
- [37:40]
David Duchovny
Yeah.
- [37:42]
Judd Apatow
When we did this is 40, I remember there's a review in, like, one of the trades, and they were just mad that they lived in a nice house, you know? And I was like, oh, we'll do, like, a Nancy Myers house. People love when people have, like, kind of, like a pretty house. And it's like the problems of a couple in a family. And they were just so offended. It was the beginning of, like, white people problems. Problems? Yeah, of, like, entitlements. Like, we don't.
- [38:03]
Podcast Host
Like.
- [38:03]
Judd Apatow
Like. Like, they're not allowed to have problems.
- [38:05]
David Duchovny
You're in the vanguard.
- [38:06]
Judd Apatow
I was. I was like. I was the first person.
- [38:08]
David Duchovny
Yeah, you're exposing it.
- [38:11]
Judd Apatow
And I was, like, shocked by. Because I never really even considered it. Like, yeah. Oh, if you live in that house.
- [38:16]
David Duchovny
Because you have white people problems, you.
- [38:18]
Judd Apatow
Shouldn'T care about the people in that house.
- [38:20]
David Duchovny
Yeah.
- [38:21]
Judd Apatow
And I was just really thrown by it. Like, well, what do I do? Because I kind of live in a house like that. So can I not write about, like, what happens today?
- [38:28]
David Duchovny
Yeah. I remember I got this review for Playing God, which was one of the first movies I did after the X Files, where it said that I was, like, the tofu of actors and that.
- [38:41]
Judd Apatow
What's that mean?
- [38:43]
David Duchovny
I could fill up space, but tofu.
- [38:46]
Judd Apatow
Is really good for you. See, that's all interpretation. That's what you put in.
- [38:50]
David Duchovny
So you make me was like, I could fill up space, but I needed, like, the flavorings of other vegetables and spices.
- [38:58]
Judd Apatow
Can't have it alone.
- [38:59]
David Duchovny
I was just bland on my own. And obviously that. That stays with me in some weird way. And.
- [39:05]
Judd Apatow
Yeah, they all do.
- [39:07]
David Duchovny
They do.
- [39:07]
Judd Apatow
And, yeah.
- [39:08]
David Duchovny
I don't know if you remember any of the good ones.
- [39:12]
Judd Apatow
I mean, I don't.
- [39:13]
David Duchovny
I don't believe them.
- [39:14]
Judd Apatow
Anyway, every time there's been, like, a good thing, like, I remember there's, like, an article in, like, Time magazine. It was, like, the best. It was like, I wrote it about myself. And I remember afterwards it was really long. It was like six pages in Time magazine.
- [39:26]
David Duchovny
Was it on you or was on a movie?
- [39:27]
Judd Apatow
It was just about me.
- [39:28]
David Duchovny
Yeah. You weren't involved in the making of the article?
- [39:32]
Judd Apatow
No, I did an interview for it, and I think I was supposed to be on the COVID And at the last second, they switched it to Obamacare. And so there's a picture of Obama, like, dressed as a daughter.
- [39:44]
David Duchovny
White paper problem.
- [39:46]
Judd Apatow
And then the article came out, and I was like, oh, this is great. I have never met one person who's ever Read that article. And then I realized, like, oh, no one reads almost any of this. Or all the things that, like, you're so bothered by. Except like back in the day, if you got just filleted by the New York Times, people were like, hey, sorry, man. That was like really, really rough. When they would go hard at you.
- [40:12]
David Duchovny
Oh, I remember the newspaper hitting the door because often I'd be like, somewhere else in a hotel and okay, there's the Times. Just hit the door. Do I get out of bed?
- [40:23]
Judd Apatow
Oh, going down to the newsstand to see. Now no one cares about any of it. No one. It's not the same.
- [40:30]
David Duchovny
Not only that, but you can go online and really get filleted in ways that are pretty interesting and powerful.
- [40:36]
Judd Apatow
You could have a 14 year old destroy you on letterbox. You never recover the rest of your life. And, you know, we talk about this like I talk about with my kids. Like, how do you do your creative work? Be bold and take chances.
- [40:49]
David Duchovny
Keep your own counsel.
- [40:51]
Judd Apatow
And even in the best of times, there's a 20, 30% that's going to hate all of it. Even if you completely nailed it. Certain people just don't like it. Just like, you know, ever have like something when the Oscar for best picture and you just go, I hate that movie. Right. So there's always people who hate everything. And so you have to develop these, these weird blinders where you let in some stuff. You kind of want to learn some stuff, but if you, if you want to dip in and destroy yourself, it's there.
- [41:15]
David Duchovny
Yeah.
- [41:15]
Judd Apatow
Like, it takes me five minutes to, to find something that'll keep me in bed for a month if I would let it.
- [41:20]
David Duchovny
What. What would you, what would you type in for, like the most pain? Apatow Suck.
- [41:27]
Judd Apatow
Jewish schlub.
- [41:31]
David Duchovny
That's not going to go for the movies.
- [41:33]
Judd Apatow
Yeah.
- [41:34]
David Duchovny
That's not what you really care about.
- [41:35]
Judd Apatow
I mean, it could be. I mean, it could be anything. And you can you. Sometimes you stumble into it like you're looking at something else. Oh, and like your name is bro. Like, why are you talking about me?
- [41:43]
David Duchovny
Yeah.
- [41:43]
Judd Apatow
All of a sudden.
- [41:44]
David Duchovny
Yeah. Why did Duchovny stop acting? What? What? It's like it's like third on the list. It's like, how the did that happen?
- [41:53]
Judd Apatow
I mean, I went on YouTube once and it was like, like a video. It was like, why the Judd Apatow era ended. Someone made a documentary about it. I was too scared to click on it.
- [42:06]
David Duchovny
They didn't ask you to be in the doc.
- [42:08]
Judd Apatow
Exactly. Where did it all go wrong. The movie with, like, an AI Judd face.
- [42:42]
David Duchovny
Since you're not on set acting, I'm wondering about the consciousness of the writer because it took me. And even sometimes still that voice will get into my head when I'm on set.
- [42:54]
Judd Apatow
Yeah.
- [42:54]
David Duchovny
Tofu. Tofu. Tofu.
- [42:57]
Judd Apatow
Yeah.
- [42:57]
David Duchovny
Not really. I haven't thought of it till just this moment, so I. I don't think of it that often. But I wonder. And it's not a. It's not a good thing. It's not like. It's not like, hey, yeah, Michael Jordan, I'm gonna take that.
- [43:08]
Judd Apatow
I need the anger to play well.
- [43:10]
David Duchovny
Yeah. No, I don't. I shrivel. So I wonder, like, as a writer, which obviously, the. The moment is extended. You don't have to deliver. Like when they say action. But I wonder, do you ever get inhibited that way for any. Any period of time by perceived negativity or remembered negativity or failures and things like that?
- [43:30]
Judd Apatow
I mean, you could just get a general. Like, why do I think I know anything? Like, just a. Almost just like a. Still a blanket over your whole thing of, like, do I know what's good?
- [43:40]
David Duchovny
So much of your life is acting like, you know a lot.
- [43:43]
Judd Apatow
Yeah. You. You. And. But you also know that you're saying your life. Yeah. You're pretending that you know what you're doing because you've had that in your career, right. Where you, like, you've told a studio or someone, like, this is going to be big and it's going to work because of this. And then, like, you're in a preview and everything you said over the last two years has been proven wrong in 90 minutes.
- [44:03]
David Duchovny
Right.
- [44:03]
Judd Apatow
And then you just feel ridiculous. And the good executives go, yeah, because in movies, if somebody has one hit out of three, it's like a baseball player. They're doing great. I mean, most people look at Scorsese's movies like, how many of them work? How many of them don't? Like, you can't succeed every time, but you have to believe in yourself every time to have any. Any shot.
- [44:27]
David Duchovny
It's hard work to make a bad movie. It's hard work. It's just as hard to make a bad one as a good one. But one thing about you that I respect is that. And I don't know this for a fact, but I think I. I think I know this about you is that when you're at that point, at that screening, when this sucks, you don't give up on it. You. You'll go and reshoot and you'll go, you'll.
- [44:51]
Judd Apatow
I'll grind hard.
- [44:52]
David Duchovny
Well, you'll adjust.
- [44:54]
Judd Apatow
Yeah.
- [44:55]
David Duchovny
And me, sometimes I think I'll just curl up and say, ah, it. I hate all of you anyway. You know, it's like I'm. I'm done. I. I tried whatever. But I. That's commendable, I think, for you to be that kind of a person, that would just go. That keeps grinding at it.
- [45:11]
Judd Apatow
Yeah.
- [45:11]
David Duchovny
And it also is. It shows that you believed in that original vision or whatever, or you're smart enough to pivot. I don't know which it is.
- [45:18]
Judd Apatow
Well, it's just. I'm just so terrified of, at the end of it going, oh, that wasn't good. Like, I can't even tolerate it. So, like, my worst fear is I'm just going down directv scrolling like we did in the old days before streaming, and I'll just see one of my movies and be really ashamed that anyone's watching it.
- [45:38]
David Duchovny
It.
- [45:39]
Judd Apatow
Like, that's the worst feeling in the world. Like, oh, no, that thing's still around. I never want that to happen. I mean, when I shoot, you know, as, you know, like, I shoot so much footage and so I usually don't do reshoots because I've literally shot what I think the reshoot would be while I'm shooting the movie.
- [45:57]
David Duchovny
I mean, it's not just. I mean, I worked with Ivan Reitman and he shot. He said, I cover like a tent. That was his line. So. But that's not you. You're not covering like a tent. But you, you're shooting a lot of footage because that footage is often different.
- [46:11]
Judd Apatow
Yeah.
- [46:11]
David Duchovny
Because you're, you're, you're auditioning lines, you're throwing out, you're improvising. So it's not, it's not that you're shooting from all different sides.
- [46:19]
Judd Apatow
Yeah.
- [46:20]
David Duchovny
And. And because you don't know how you're going to cut it.
- [46:22]
Judd Apatow
Yeah.
- [46:22]
David Duchovny
But you don't know what's going to be in it. So I imagine when you have a screening that doesn't go well, you've got like five more jokes that, you know that you had on that day that you're going to come back to.
- [46:33]
Judd Apatow
Yeah. That in editing, if one joke doesn't work, there is something to try. Because my fear is I'm going to find out my joke didn't work. And then I'll go, is there another joke in the footage to try? And they'll go, no. And then you're just writing jokes in.
- [46:47]
David Duchovny
The back of People's heads. True, though. I don't think you've ever gotten to there, have you?
- [46:51]
Judd Apatow
Sometimes you get to the place where you have to do an ADR joke, like just audio on the back of someone's hand.
- [46:55]
David Duchovny
ADR jokes. I don't. They do work.
- [46:57]
Judd Apatow
They do.
- [46:57]
David Duchovny
Really? Wow.
- [47:00]
Judd Apatow
Watch Bottle Rocket. There's a lot of great ADR jokes at West Anderson and Owen wrote.
- [47:04]
David Duchovny
Yeah.
- [47:04]
Judd Apatow
That you notice that if you really watch it, like, oh, they really grinded some fun.
- [47:07]
David Duchovny
You know what a is?
- [47:08]
Judd Apatow
Yeah, yeah.
- [47:09]
David Duchovny
But it's a. It's an interesting way that. That you work, because obviously you. You work hard. You're seven months out. You just told me when we sat down, you're. You're. You're punching up a script.
- [47:20]
Judd Apatow
Yeah.
- [47:21]
David Duchovny
But when you get there, how many times are you going to go through that script before you go to new lines?
- [47:27]
Judd Apatow
And I'll. Yeah. And. But I rehearse it.
- [47:30]
David Duchovny
How many times you think?
- [47:31]
Judd Apatow
I mean, just a gazillion. And a lot of times, like, on the day the whole thing gets tossed, you just think of something better on the day. So you're kind of preparing a script and you're trying to make it perfect, but then on the day you're willing to shoot it once or twice and go, all right, now that we're here, it feels completely different than what was in my head. But I always feel like the actors are going to do something that I would never think of. The way they speak, the way they're reacting to each other. And that I learned from Gary, because I would watch the rehearsals. Gary would rehearse for three days, then shoot Larry Sanders show in two days. And he kept her.
- [48:05]
David Duchovny
He would rehearse for three days. Yeah.
- [48:06]
Judd Apatow
And he would keep. Well, you do a table. Yeah. Sometimes a table read on Monday. And then he would let the rehearsals be loose. And that's where if anyone wanted to change anything, they could experiment. And I just thought, yeah, that's where he's letting some magic happen. And then he had to lock it back down. But I thought, oh, I could just shoot what's. Basically the rehearsals and see what people will do. Right.
- [48:29]
David Duchovny
And that's. You found that out early, or you just found. You found that out by watching Gary.
- [48:34]
Judd Apatow
I found that out. I'm trying to think. The first time I saw someone do it was Stiller on the Ben Stiller show when we would do sketches. And I remember Ben was playing Tony Robbins, and he just talked like Tony Robbins for, like, 45 minutes. Like, we needed, like a three minute sketch. And he just was laughing and we were throwing up lines and he was just improvising. And he would do that in every situation. He just knew because he had edited some short films and he had his MTV show before our show, and he just knew, oh, it's all for the editing room.
- [49:04]
David Duchovny
Let's just talk about documentaries for a minute. I don't want to take up too much of your time.
- [49:08]
Judd Apatow
I've got nothing to do.
- [49:09]
David Duchovny
Okay, so we'll keep going. We talked a little bit before when, you know, you asked me how the podcast is going, and I said, well, I thought I was interested in people, but it turns out I'm not that interested in people because it's. And one of the things I found is like, I want to ask stupid questions because I'm tired of asking smart questions, because smart questions have an answer implicit in them.
- [49:39]
Judd Apatow
You want to shake it up to get to a new thing.
- [49:42]
David Duchovny
And I'm wondering, because you've done documentaries and you've done podcasts, but mostly the documentaries, you have an idea of what your documentary is about, maybe, or you're making the documentary to find out what it's about. How do you go about figuring out the kind of questioner you want to be? Because you're on that side, the other guy's on camera and you're directing him with your questions, but you also don't want to direct too hard because you want to get the truth.
- [50:11]
Judd Apatow
Well, it's. Yeah, I mean, it's very instinctual. I just am finishing up a documentary that I'm directing with Michael Bonfiglio, who did the George Carlin documentary with me. And so I had to do 10 hours with Mel Brooks. And so I thought, I've seen a lot of documentaries with him, but the thing that I haven't seen too much is him talking about his emotional life. So I've seen a lot of the funny stories and all that classic stuff, but how can I get him to just tell me how it felt like, what did it feel like to fight in World War II? How did it feel to be on your show of shows and be the young guy in that staff of all these geniuses? And so I had an intention with him. How much can we see Mel Brooks heart as a way of showing him be reflective?
- [51:02]
David Duchovny
Did you tell him that?
- [51:04]
Judd Apatow
I don't think that I did that explicitly, but I think I did tell him I wanted to tell his story and to have it be a more personal documentary. But I felt like he's 99 now. He has a lot of wisdom. I mean, he's lived through so many different eras. He's had to deal with the loss of his wife and Ann Bancroft and Carl Reiner and that there's a lot to learn from his experience. And so I approached it like. Like, I'm basically a copycat of Mel Brooks. And so the documentary is me asking him things.
- [51:39]
David Duchovny
You feel you're.
- [51:40]
Judd Apatow
That I want to know.
- [51:41]
David Duchovny
Like you're a copycat of Mel Brooks?
- [51:42]
Judd Apatow
Of course, because when I was a kid, it was just Mel Brooks and Woody Allen and Blake Edwards or, like, a few people that made comedies. And, you know, you would see Mel Brooks and it was just like kind of like this odd little genius who was crazy confident.
- [51:55]
David Duchovny
Yeah, he was.
- [51:56]
Judd Apatow
And I think, you know, I have got Stiller and. And Sandler in the movie. We all looked at him like, oh, could you do that? Is that a job? It seemed like the coolest, most amazing, hilarious guy in the world. But now me being older and him being older, to go, oh, tell me about your ride. What was it like?
- [52:19]
David Duchovny
Do you feel like this is part of you coming out as well? Are you reaching for more? Not that your movies aren't emotional, but are you finding yourself responding to that more as you get older?
- [52:31]
Judd Apatow
I think so. That's why I like documentaries, because I like that there's just a lot there with any human experience. If you go deep with anybody, it's so rich and emotional, and it's almost too powerful to talk about. What was this life that this person had? How do you sum up Garry Chandling's life? His joys, his creativity, his struggles, his pain, and to try to figure out, can you get it across, that it's in the universe of accurate to something and to feel him. I like the Garry Shandling documentary Zendiaries of Garry Shandling on HBO Max, because I think at the end, you did get to know Garry and you do get to feel Gary.
- [53:22]
David Duchovny
I agree.
- [53:22]
Judd Apatow
And so that part is, you know, it's moving. And I like the idea of Gary being known. You know, I hate the idea that, like, Gary's gone and is he just going to be forgotten? And he was so special and so fascinating, and so now there's, like, a way for people to access it in some way.
- [53:41]
David Duchovny
Were you surprised by anything in the making of that documentary about Gary?
- [53:45]
Judd Apatow
I mean, I was very surprised that. But Gary had no photographs in his house that were personal. He didn't have pictures of his family, of his brother, his childhood, of his career. He just kind of had nothing out. He had a lot of Buddhist statues and things like that. And then I opened up a closet and he had saved everything. And how interesting that is.
- [54:15]
David Duchovny
The closet again for you.
- [54:16]
Judd Apatow
Yeah, that he's in the closet and he has everything in there. And that he was sentimental in some way because he kept it all. And there was a real story in those photos. They were videos from his childhood. And that there was this really sad story about a kid whose brother was very sick with cystic fibrosis and he died. And then no one would talk about him. And Gary was not able to process that loss and that it just seemed to affect his relationship throughout his life. And then at the very end of the doc, I found this letter he had written to his brother near the end of Gary's life. I don't know if a therapist told him to do it, to process it. And it really was everything that I thought it was. So, like, my guess of what had affected him so much. Gary had fully written out that the loss was so profound for him and that this was like his best friend in the world and that he never liked, like, fully recovered from it.
- [55:20]
David Duchovny
Yes. I remember. I remember that in the dock. Yeah. Where he was. He didn't go to the funeral. Right. He wasn't allowed to go.
- [55:27]
Judd Apatow
Yeah.
- [55:28]
David Duchovny
They didn't acknowledge it. Yeah, they didn't acknowledge the loss.
- [55:32]
Judd Apatow
Yeah. They didn't bring him to the funeral because his mom didn't want Gary to see her cry. And then they just didn't talk about him. And it's funny because, like, Gary never talked about it. I mean, maybe like, once and all the time I. I knew him.
- [55:46]
David Duchovny
Yeah. I'm going to finish up by reading the end of this letter.
- [55:51]
Judd Apatow
Okay. They better close strong if you want to close her.
- [55:56]
David Duchovny
You feel blessed. Life is so wonderful, but also so mysterious, dark and strange. We all need a language to try to understand and get through it. This is mine. This being filmmaking or comedy?
- [56:10]
Judd Apatow
Comedy, I think.
- [56:11]
David Duchovny
Yeah. Okay. Last year I took ayahuasca.
- [56:16]
Judd Apatow
We all have at this point.
- [56:18]
David Duchovny
And at the end of a long trip, I saw an image of Jesus on the cross, which was strange since I am Jewish. Instantly I understood what it meant. We were all supposed to be there for each other. Love, brotherhood, sacrifice. It's as simple as that. I'm not converting, but I did feel the need to buy the New Testament. Did you?
- [56:36]
Judd Apatow
Well, I got it on audible. Johnny Cash was reading it.
- [56:39]
David Duchovny
Johnny Cash reads it. I haven't listened yet. No, you haven't listened yet. I've Got to finish this book first.
- [56:43]
Judd Apatow
It's so boring. I mean, it's just so boring. But I'm going to try. But, man, is the Old Testament boring?
- [56:50]
David Duchovny
Well, the Old Testament's pretty violent. The New Testament's a little boring.
- [56:52]
Judd Apatow
I know. I got.
- [56:53]
David Duchovny
It's the same story four times.
- [56:55]
Judd Apatow
See, I still don't even know the difference between the two. But I will get to it. I'm going to get to it, or at least I'll have chatgpt explain it to me.
- [57:04]
David Duchovny
But I think it's. It's admirable your. Your sincerity there, even though you're joking again, you know, But I feel you reaching for a sincerity, and I feel you reaching for it, you know, more and more. And I look forward to seeing more of. Of how you stitch that together with being so funny as well. All right, man. Thank you so much.
- [57:29]
Podcast Host
Right?
- [57:29]
Judd Apatow
Thank you. And that was fun.
- [57:32]
David Duchovny
That's all I got.
- [57:33]
Judd Apatow
Yeah. That's all you needed to give.
- [57:35]
David Duchovny
That's a kneeling thing. That's all I got. That's all I got.
- [57:37]
Judd Apatow
You gave all you had.
- [57:38]
David Duchovny
Thanks, guys. Just a memo about sitting down with Judd Apatow. I didn't bring up. What I'd wanted to bring up is he told me that or he didn't tell me. But in his book, he had written early on, I think in his early 20s, he wrote a script for the symptoms. Symptoms. The symptoms. The Simpsons. And they repurposed it or they rewrote it recently or within the last five or ten years. And Judd speaks about it as. It's like a dream come true. You know, his childhood dream or early career dream of writing a Simpsons episode comes true 30 years later, and it's quite amazing. And talk about stairway thoughts. The. The French no word for ponce. Descalier. Escalator thoughts. I wish that I'd brought it up.
- [58:51]
Judd Apatow
But I didn't bring it up.
- [59:00]
David Duchovny
Thanks so much for listening to Fail Better. If you haven't subscribed to Lemonada Premium yet, now's the perfect time because guess what? You can listen completely ad free. Plus you'll unlock exclusive bonus content like the full version of my post interview thoughts that you won't hear anywhere else. That's more of my recaps on interviews with guests like Chris Carter and Emily Deschanel. Just tap that subscribe button on Apple podcasts or head to lemonade premium.com to subscribe on any other app. That's lemonadapremium.com. don't miss out. Fail Better is production of Lemonada Media in coordination with King Baby. It is produced by Keegan Zema, Aria Brachi and Donnie Matias. Our engineer is Brian Castillo. Our SVP of weekly is Steve Nelson. Special thanks to Carl Ackerman, Tom Krupinski and Brad Davidson. The show is executive produced by Stephanie Whittles, Wax, Jessica Cordova, Kramer and me, David Duchovny. The music is also by me and my band, the lovely Colin Lee, Pat McCusker, Mitch Stewart, Davis Rowan and Sebastian Modak. Back you can find us online at Lemonada Media and you can find me at David Duchovny. Follow Fail Better wherever you get your podcasts or listen ad free on Amazon Music with your prime membership.