#584 - Retired Las Vegas Police Sgt.

Summary

Podcast Summary: "This Past Weekend w/ Theo Von" Episode #584 - Retired Las Vegas Police Sgt. Christopher Curtis

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Introduction

In Episode #584 of "This Past Weekend w/ Theo Von," host Theo Von welcomes Christopher Curtis, a retired sergeant from the Las Vegas Metropolitan Police Department (LVMPD) and a former crisis negotiator. Born and raised in Queens, New York, Curtis dedicated over two decades to law enforcement in Las Vegas, gaining extensive experience in handling a wide array of criminal activities and high-stress situations.

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Career and Retirement

Curtis shares his journey from the Marine Corps to the LVMPD, highlighting the strong influence of his father, who was also in law enforcement.

• [08:47] Christopher Curtis: "I was a Marine when I joined the force, and my father’s legacy in law enforcement deeply inspired me."

Transition to Retirement:

Curtis recounts his strategic retirement, funded by a significant payout from Tony Hsieh, the late CEO of Zappos, who was revitalizing downtown Las Vegas.

• [02:24] Christopher Curtis: "Tony Hsieh revitalized downtown Las Vegas with a $350 million investment and saw potential in the innovative policing strategies I was implementing."

• [03:05] Christopher Curtis: "On April Fool's Day 2013, I retired after Tony covered the six-figure cost to buy out my remaining service time."

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Policing in Las Vegas

Curtis delves into the unique challenges and vibrant criminal landscape of Las Vegas during the 1990s, often referred to as the "golden era of policing" in the city.

• [10:31] Christopher Curtis: "Policing in Las Vegas was phenomenal. You interacted with people from all walks of life, understanding the human psyche deeply."

Drug Scene and Prostitution:

Curtis discusses the prevalent drug issues, primarily crack and speed, and the entrenched prostitution networks managed by pimps.

• [14:33] Christopher Curtis: "The drug scene in Vegas was either crack or speed, heavily influenced by the area commands you worked in."

• [44:51] Christopher Curtis: "Prostitution in Vegas is rampant, though illegal. Many women work under pimps who control their earnings and movements."

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Personal Stories and Experiences

Curtis shares harrowing stories from his time on the force, illustrating the emotional toll and moral complexities officers face.

Encounter with Stu Ungar:

• [16:52] Theo Von: "I pulled Stu Ungar... What happened?"

• [16:53] Christopher Curtis: "Stu Ungar was high as hell, trying to play us. Such situations were common, dealing with celebrities and high-profile individuals caught in vice."

Tragic Domestic Violence Case:

• [23:05] Christopher Curtis: "Called to a residence where a mother was shot by her violent ex-husband. Her children were left traumatized, begging what they would do without her."

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Handling Death and Empathy

Curtis reflects on the profound impact witnessing death has on law enforcement officers, shaping their empathy and emotional resilience.

• [12:32] Christopher Curtis: "Taking a little girl from her struggling mother was heartbreaking. It made me realize the importance of empathy in policing."

• [21:54] Christopher Curtis: "Seeing death changes your perspective. One time, another cop was playing video poker while a man had died beside him. It was confusing and hard to reconcile."

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Crisis Negotiation

Curtis elaborates on his role as a crisis negotiator, sharing techniques and real-life scenarios that highlight the delicate balance between authority and empathy.

Negotiation Scenario Exercise:

• [132:35] Christopher Curtis: "Negotiation is about building rapport. Using minimal encouragers and paraphrasing can help de-escalate tense situations."

• [135:20] Theo Von: "How do you handle talking someone out of unaliving themselves?"

• [135:29] Christopher Curtis: "It's about humanizing the interaction. For example, addressing the person by name and showing genuine concern can make a significant difference."

Role-Playing Example:

Curtis guides Theo through a simulated negotiation with a suicidal individual named Michael Brady, emphasizing the importance of empathy and strategic communication.

• [138:57] Theo Von: "It's intense... It’s like, you have to think of your son now."

• [141:00] Christopher Curtis: "Emotional connection is crucial. Understanding their personal struggles helps in finding a peaceful resolution."

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Race and Policing

The conversation shifts to the intricate relationship between race and policing, with Curtis providing insights from his extensive experience.

• [74:53] Christopher Curtis: "In my 20-plus years, overt racial discrimination in policing was rare. Most issues stemmed from personal biases rather than institutional racism."

• [87:56] Christopher Curtis: "Race issues are complex. While statistics show higher crime rates among certain demographics, it's essential to look beyond stereotypes and address underlying societal challenges."

Addressing Bias:

Curtis emphasizes the importance of recognizing and mitigating personal biases to foster fair policing practices.

• [75:52] Theo Von: "How do you overcome societal biases in policing?"

• [75:54] Christopher Curtis: "We all have biases. Training and self-awareness are key to ensuring fair treatment of all individuals, regardless of race."

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Mental Health for Officers

Curtis discusses the significant mental health challenges faced by law enforcement officers, advocating for greater support and awareness.

• [82:18] Theo Von: "How do you manage the mental fatigue and stress of policing?"

• [82:42] Christopher Curtis: "Mental health awareness is crucial. Officers should have access to resources like counseling and stress-relief programs to maintain their well-being."

Impact of Trauma:

Curtis shares personal anecdotes highlighting the long-term psychological effects of police work.

• [90:57] Christopher Curtis: "Witnessing traumatic events, like shootings or domestic violence, takes a toll. It's vital to process these experiences to prevent burnout and PTSD."

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Communication and Empathy Techniques

The duo explores effective communication strategies that enhance interactions, both in policing and personal relationships.

Minimal Encouragers and Paraphrasing:

• [134:20] Christopher Curtis: "Using minimal encouragers like 'mm-hmm' and paraphrasing what someone says helps build trust and understanding."

• [135:09] Theo Von: "Yeah, I feel more comfortable when you reflect back what I'm saying."

Positive Language:

Curtis advocates for using positive language to reframe situations and foster constructive dialogues.

• [132:33] Christopher Curtis: "Avoid negative terms like 'problem.' Use 'challenge' instead to encourage a positive outlook."

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Closing Thoughts

In the concluding segment, Curtis and Von reflect on the complexities of policing, the importance of empathy, and the need for societal change to support both officers and communities.

• [150:34] Theo Von: "It's a huge undertaking to manage all these responsibilities and emotions as an officer."

• [150:57] Christopher Curtis: "Policing should be about serving with empathy. Expanding the officer's toolbelt with skills like negotiation and active listening can reduce conflicts and save lives."

Curtis underscores the continuous need for personal growth, empathy, and community engagement to break the cycles of violence and mistrust.

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Notable Quotes

• Christopher Curtis [12:32]: "Taking a little girl from her struggling mother was heartbreaking. It made me realize the importance of empathy in policing."

• Christopher Curtis [74:53]: "In my 20-plus years, overt racial discrimination in policing was rare. Most issues stemmed from personal biases rather than institutional racism."

• Christopher Curtis [82:42]: "Mental health awareness is crucial. Officers should have access to resources like counseling and stress-relief programs to maintain their well-being."

• Christopher Curtis [132:33]: "Avoid negative terms like 'problem.' Use 'challenge' instead to encourage a positive outlook."

• Theo Von [150:34]: "It's a huge undertaking to manage all these responsibilities and emotions as an officer."

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Conclusion

Episode #584 offers a deep dive into the life and experiences of a seasoned law enforcement officer, shedding light on the human aspect of policing. Through heartfelt stories and insightful discussions, Christopher Curtis emphasizes the critical roles of empathy, effective communication, and mental health support in fostering safer communities and healthier officers.

For those interested in understanding the intricate dynamics of modern policing and the personal challenges officers face, this episode provides valuable perspectives grounded in real-world experiences.

Transcript

[Theo]

Hablas espanol.

[Christopher Curtis]

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[Theo]

We want to let you know that today's conversation may be a bit graphic for some or gruesome. It's containing law enforcement and some of their involvement just with society. So if you don't like that sort of thing, you may not want to listen. Today's guest is a retired sergeant from the Las Vegas Metropolitan Police Department and a former crisis negotiator. He was born and raised in Queens, New York before spending 20 years on the force in Las Vegas, where he pretty much saw it all. Today's guest is LVPD's finest, Christopher Curtis. Okay, sitting here today. Retired police officer.

[Christopher Curtis]

Sergeant. Sorry, that's a, that's a thing with police?

[Theo]

Yeah, a little bit.

[Christopher Curtis]

Yeah.

[Theo]

Yes, sir. All right, sir. Yes, sir. Retired police sergeant.

[Christopher Curtis]

Yes. From the Las Vegas Metropolitan Police Department.

[Theo]

Las Vegas Metropolitan Police department. You did 25 years of service?

[Christopher Curtis]

Well, I did 21 plus and then I bought some of the time. A guy actually bought my time out to go work for him afterwards in Nevada. You can do that.

[Theo]

So you can. So if you're a police officer and you have, you still have so many years left on your lease or what.

[Christopher Curtis]

Is it, to collect your retirement.

[Theo]

Okay, right, okay. So you want to get to your.

[Christopher Curtis]

Pension, right, so you can buy it yourself. But what happened was I was one of the first people because there was a guy in the private sector. You ever heard the company Zappos?

[Theo]

Zappos. The shoes.

[Christopher Curtis]

Yeah, the shoes, yeah. So the guy, Tony Shea, who passed away some time ago, he was a.

[Theo]

Billionaire and he had one foot in the grave. That's an old Zappos anymore.

[Christopher Curtis]

He, he was revitalizing downtown Las Vegas and He was investing 350 million into it. And he heard about me doing some innovative things down there. And he, through a friend, he asked to meet me at a bar. And so we meet at this bar and I'm like, this Tony Hsieh like this. And he says, he told me off the project. And he's like, would you like to come work for me? I was like, I'm not old enough to retire and I don't have, you know, the time. And he said, can you buy. How much does it cost? And I said, I have to get back to it. But I knew it was a significant six figure number. And I got back to him with a number and he wrote the check. And so at like 21 years, on April Fool's Day of 2013, I retired.

[Theo]

So he paid your.

[Christopher Curtis]

So he bought it.

[Theo]

So at a certain.

[Christopher Curtis]

So if you want to collect a retirement, you have to do at least a certain amount of time. You get vested in the state system.

[Theo]

Got it.

[Christopher Curtis]

So to make it worthwhile, to make it a significant amount of money, to do at least 25 years. I mean, 20 years, you could do it. But at 25 years and 30 years, the money's pretty nice.

[Theo]

Yeah.

[Christopher Curtis]

And so to get to 25, at the time he wanted me to retire, needed to buy it, and it was six figures, and he wrote the check.

[Theo]

Wow. And so within like a couple days, you were done?

[Christopher Curtis]

No. What? I. I kind of was strategic about it and I planned it out and I wanted to see exactly what his process was. And he was a very, very smart guy and a very forward thinking guy. So we kind of planned behind the scenes how to work it out. And so I had enough time to set everything up. And then April Fool's Day, I retired. Wow.

[Theo]

And he paid off. How many years did he pay off?

[Christopher Curtis]

So it turned out to be like maybe like three and a half, Almost four years, basically. Four years, yeah.

[Theo]

And at that point you started working for him?

[Christopher Curtis]

At that point I started working for him, yeah. So I had my, my full police retirement and then I had a significant salary from him. So that was nice.

[Theo]

Living in Vegas still, at that time.

[Christopher Curtis]

I was still living in Vegas. I had to, because I had to be kind of working in that project downtown. Can I give you something? Actually, I brought something for you.

[Theo]

Yeah, sure.

[Christopher Curtis]

You know, I'm a, I'm a fan, man. I really like what you do, and I think you're awesome. And I figured I could give you something, A Vegas souvenir. So open that up.

[Theo]

Okay. Scoot up. A coaster. This a beverage coaster. Police Managers Supervisors Association Las Vegas Metro badge. Huh?

[Christopher Curtis]

Now, now open it up.

[Theo]

Okay.

[Christopher Curtis]

And look at the back. Ooh.

[Theo]

Gang boy. Commemorative only. Thank God.

[Christopher Curtis]

Yeah. So you don't go out and start Jacking people. Yeah. I wanted you to have a badge, man, and so then you can just put it this little thing.

[Theo]

Oh, thanks.

[Christopher Curtis]

Put in one of your places, man. You do a lot of really cool stuff, man. When I. When I came into town, man, and. And people I talked to, you know, small group of people. Everyone really thinks very, very highly of you, man. I watched your stuff. You're a good dude, man.

[Theo]

Well, thanks, Chris, man. I appreciate you saying that, dude, that's awesome. Yeah. Because we need to.

[Christopher Curtis]

You gotta put it back in the thing in order to hold it in.

[Theo]

Oh, that's fair. Yeah. God, that's. Yeah. And I worked in zoning for a little bit, so. Sorry. That should have made sense. Dude, that's awesome, man. Thank you very much. Yeah, we have a nice little collection of some neat Stu given us.

[Christopher Curtis]

Now you got a badge.

[Theo]

Yeah. That's very, very thoughtful of you. Thank you.

[Christopher Curtis]

Thank you, man.

[Theo]

Yeah, and thank you for your service, too. Right on, dude. I'll tell you a story. So one time, I'm at the University of Tennessee football game, and some guy, and he was like a drunk guy, and he was like, you know, he just kept making sounds like that, and just like he could breathe, but he wasn't great at it. You know, he put on some weight or whatever, and he was a sheriff or something, you know. And I was like, I need to go downstairs and use the restroom. He's like, oh, well, if anybody gives you any problem, just show him this. He gave me a sheriff's badge, right? In a little fan flat. It comes in like a little wallet. So I'm downstairs, dude. Right. Things start kind of like. People start getting weird down there. Like there's some stuff kind of popping off in a tunnel. And so I pull this thing out, dude, and I show it up in the air, right? And now there's other police officers come up and they're looking at each other and they're looking at me, right? And how old were you? Oh, this is probably eight months ago. And then. Yeah, and then the lady pushed me up against the wall for having a. A fake identification, being a fake police officer.

[Christopher Curtis]

But they didn't know that. Recognize you.

[Theo]

She did that. She didn't want any. I guess she recognized. I. I was not an officiant of the law.

[Christopher Curtis]

You were just the ovon with a badge.

[Theo]

Yeah. And she's like, this kind of is too much. So anyway, just be careful where you use. Where you use Badgery, you know? So. So what did you do for Tony? He.

[Christopher Curtis]

Tony Hsieh.

[Theo]

Tony Hsieh.

[Christopher Curtis]

So for Tony, he's. He was revitalizing downtown and he wanted to create like an ambassador, you know, those ambassadors that kind of give out directions or eyes for the police. And he wanted someone that knew the area. So I like hired like 60 people and they just walked around the air because it was pretty high crime rate back then. In fact, what's interesting is I had worked a double homicide on Fremont, like maybe about six months before he approached me. It was pretty bad down there at one point, for a long time. When I first hired on in 92, it was like, if you wanted a cop to learn how to be a really good street cop, you would want to work downtown on Fremont. So basically, to answer your question, it was to have these ambassador people who wore like yellow shirts, you know, and very welcoming to people who were looking for directions because there was an infrastructure of people that were working and living down there. And he was trying to build that because he had red residential businesses and all kinds of stuff. And in not having the police, he wanted to have a civilian group of people that could interact with people and make them feel safe.

[Theo]

Yeah, I guess it's like a business person and a connector like him. You think of those types of things and he starts to see the value in them. How did Tony Hsieh die?

[Christopher Curtis]

So I, you know, I'm not very comfortable speaking about specifically how he died. I know there was an incident where there was a fire and he was inside the fire. And I believed it was related to something about being inside the building with the fire once. I. Because I wasn't with the company when that happened. That was sometime after the company. And, you know, it got to a point where after I retired and I had. Throughout the years of dealing with so much death and all the craziness on the police department, I just tuned everything out. I really didn't engage with people if it wasn't a positive experience. And then it became a point where I was just like a solitary person. So I wasn't really very intimately involved in details to how he died. But that's kind of like the gist of it.

[Theo]

Got it. So we see how you finished the force. Then how did it start? Like, how did it first start that you decided to become. Join the force?

[Christopher Curtis]

I was a Marine, so When I was 17, I joined the Marine Corps. And this was way. So this was 1987 that I went into the Marine Corps.

[Theo]

Okay.

[Christopher Curtis]

Parris Island 3rd Battalion. I Company, super hardcore. And my dad was in law enforcement too. And I Cannot overstate the importance of having a strong male role model in your life. My father, I genuflect to that man. He died in 2017. And what I can say is that my dad. I wanted to do everything like my dad. So my dad was in the military. My dad was in the army, But I wanted to be a Marine, and my dad was in law enforcement. So while I was in the Marine Corps, you know, there was. I was on embassy duty. I ended up going to embassy duty, which is like one of the best, most challenging duties in the Marine Corps if you go to the right countries. And I was in Belgrade. It was actually when I was in Caracas. When I was in Caracas, there was a.

[Theo]

And that's Venezuela.

[Christopher Curtis]

Caracas, Venezuela. There was a economics officer who took a liking to me, and he knew I wanted to go into law enforcement. He said to me, he said, in the 90s, the economy in Vegas is going to explode. I got on a plane and within, like, a couple weeks flew and took the test. And then I ended up in the Academy in 92. Wow.

[Theo]

Yeah, dude, I bet the streets were hot in 92. Were they crazy?

[Christopher Curtis]

It was the wild, wild west. Vegas was the wild, wild west. If you, you know, everyone says that their department is the best, I'm gonna say that Las Vegas policing, especially in the 90s, I call it the golden era of policing, was just phenomenal. I mean, you really got to understand the psyche of the human being, because so many people come to Vegas to do whatever crazy thing they want to do, and you got to interact with people on that level, and it teaches you a lot about people.

[Theo]

Is that a more fun place to be in law enforcement? Do you feel like. I know that's a strange word probably, to use with policing, but is that a more entertaining place?

[Christopher Curtis]

It is. It is, because you deal with everything they deal with in L. A. Everything they deal with in New York. And then Vegas is just, you know, they say New York is a city that never sleeps. It kind of. I'm a New Yorker. It kind of does. Vegas never sleeps.

[Theo]

Vegas can't sleep because it's coked up.

[Christopher Curtis]

Yes, for sure. Or meth.

[Theo]

Yeah, Coco did meth. It was meth. A little bit popping.

[Christopher Curtis]

It is because, you know, the area commands that you. The area command that you work would kind of define what drug you would deal with primarily.

[Theo]

Got it.

[Christopher Curtis]

And so there was a time where I was working in the Northeast, and they used to call him. It was called Frank area. Now. They used to. Used to be David area. They call Them Frankites or Davidites, because they'd be up just tweaking out, doing stuff on trailers and everything. And, you know, there was a transition for me in my life because I was a straight edge guy and I looked down on drugs and I didn't have a lot of, I guess, empathy for people who were using drugs. And now I've completely learned the opposite, you know?

[Theo]

Oh, yeah, I bet you. Because you're firsthand right in front of those people all the time.

[Christopher Curtis]

I got to see, like, I would go to a single wide trailer at 3am ladies completely tweaked out of her mind, and her kids are awake, all nasty, you know, crying. The neighbors have called spaghetti sauce on the walls. And I'd be pissed at the mother. And what happened throughout my career is I ended up seeing that little girl that I was trying to protect, becoming the parent of a kid in the same type of sit situation. It's just cyclical, you know, and then for the police to be judgmental, I found that to be incredibly disheartening for me. And in fact, if there's anything I think back in my life, it is if ever I treated another human being improperly or if I didn't spend time with my children when I could have spent time with my children, you know, it makes me get emotional sometimes when I can think of specific situations. I'll tell you a story, man. There was one time where I took a little girl from her mom.

[Theo]

And this is in Vegas.

[Christopher Curtis]

This is in Vegas. Oh, yeah, all my police stuff is in Vegas. One time that she was. The mom was completely too out. She was slamming speed, and she was just up and just doing all kinds of stuff. And the neighbors was at some point called.

[Theo]

Yeah, slamming speed is injecting it.

[Christopher Curtis]

Yes, he's injecting it.

[Theo]

Okay.

[Christopher Curtis]

And so I go there, and I remember I had to take the little girl from her mom. And this girl was crying in such a way I recorded this that it was almost as if someone was literally, though I wasn't pulling her heart out of her body. Now, mind you, that's a kid who loves their mom no matter what.

[Theo]

Yeah.

[Christopher Curtis]

You love your parent in spite of. Right. And I'll always remember in my mind that I have to learn to look at other people not only the way that I'd want to be treated, but through the experiences that I've had. That's how I look at people now. You know, once you get older, you can start to get emotional about just the simplest of things.

[Theo]

Oh, yeah. Hell yeah. Jesus. Most of this podcast is like that. Yeah, yeah. It's funny, the little things that'll trigger things that you didn't have or things you admire so much, or even a word sometimes that a phrase somebody will use and it'll just like, well, you up with emotion. Well, I do think it's interesting for. For people in police, fire departments, those types of jobs where, yes, you. I'm sure you develop a lot of empathy, but then also you are put under an unrealistic amount of stress. A lot of officers are, I would assume. It seems like to me, from the discussions I've had, that a lot of people get put under stress that they're not really even as a human, equipped to deal with. So then at that point, it's probably tough for you to engage your best feelings and your best empathy at moments when you're under stress. And then you also have to look out for your own survival. I'm not debating you with it. I'm just saying I'm sure it's quite a juxtaposition. You know, when you first start out in Vegas, what are some things that you saw? So anything that stands out, you know.

[Christopher Curtis]

So from a crime perspective or from just a culture of policing perspective?

[Theo]

Let's start with the crime perspective.

[Christopher Curtis]

So from the crime perspective, drugs are one of the most. I mean, drugs and alcohol, okay. Because drugs and alcohol kind of run hand in hand when it comes to the challenges that I would run into. The drug scene in Vegas was either it was crack or it was speed. And like I said before, depending on the area. Commander, you went. And I would go on Fremont, because I worked Fremont primarily the first part of my career, and I'd see these young girls hooked on crack, prostituting on Fremont Street. Then you would see guys who came into town to party in Vegas. They, you know, gamble at the casinos downtown, and then they want to come and pick up these girls, they get trick rolled. I mean, it's just this, like, incredible web of vice that occurred, and it was like Gotham City.

[Theo]

And what's trick roll? Is that that thing somebody sends you that video or whatever?

[Christopher Curtis]

No. So trick rolled is when a girl, a prostitute, ends up getting you in a hotel room, either drugs you or steals your money and rolls you. So the guy's the trick and they roll him for his money? Kind of, yeah, sometimes. If that's. Sometimes it's with. With. With. With drugs. I mean, there are a lot of different ways that that could potentially happen.

[Theo]

The act of a person commercially exchanging sex, robbing, or Stealing from their sex buying client, known as a trick. Got it. I got it. Okay. Yeah, I thought it was something at a sushi joint too. I'm like, damn, I don't know. Yes. Make sure you cook it first. Like, would you bust into some, like, wild parties? Like, would you bust in and people have been up for days? Would you bust in and people were so bummed that you were ruining the party? That ever happened?

[Christopher Curtis]

You know, the thing was not so necessarily bummed. It was that the people felt like it was in Vegas. Like, come on, cop, we should be able to do this. I mean, like, why are you bothering us right now? They wouldn't even be mad. It was almost like a joke or people who wouldn't want to try to pay you off or stuff like that. But the funny thing is that when I was talking about the girls doing the trick roles and stuff like, and everything, these people are a lot of times close to my age. So I would see these, you know, do you know there's a. The guy's name is. He was a famous poker player. I can't remember his name. I pulled him over one time and he was completely cracked out of that. He's not, he's dead now, so it's not me.

[Theo]

He was driving.

[Christopher Curtis]

He was. No, he was in the passenger seat.

[Theo]

Stu Unger.

[Christopher Curtis]

Stu Ungar?

[Theo]

Yeah, St. Unger.

[Christopher Curtis]

Stu Ungar. I pulled Stu. He was in the passenger side of a car. The driver was this dude who I knew was a dealer, completely cracked out of his mind. And Stu tried to play me as I was standing at the passenger side of the car to try to get me to let him go, knowing that the car was full of all kinds of stuff. Now in Vegas, I can tell you that without telling you that on both hands, I've run into easily 5 to.

[Theo]

10.

[Christopher Curtis]

B A list people involved in very, very compromising situations. And I know that happens in la, but the Vegas stuff is really superseding. It's almost always some kind of sex, prostitute, drug type thing. And I was like 22 years old and I was interacting with people who. I had no idea that I would be interacting with them on that type of level.

[Theo]

Like, were there times you get called to hotel rooms? Like, I'm just trying to think of like, take me on, like a specific call if you can, so. And you don't. I'm not saying name celebrities, I don't need that. But I'm just saying, like, yeah, take me on, like a call where things are like, you know, I'm Just kind of curious as to the level of like, just the things you would see because it's Vegas. Like, you know, it's the craziest place on earth.

[Christopher Curtis]

So here's a story, and it's a sad story.

[Theo]

Sorry, do I sound demanding about that?

[Christopher Curtis]

No, not at all.

[Theo]

Okay. Sorry.

[Christopher Curtis]

I mean, that's kind of why I came, right?

[Theo]

My hearing is kind of sensitive to it. Oh, is it? Yeah. I don't know why. I think I'm just tired.

[Christopher Curtis]

But so. So working downtown, I got a call once.

[Theo]

So you guys walk the beat down there? What do you guys know?

[Christopher Curtis]

That's one of the things you don't really walk as much in Vegas. You know, everyone really drives a car. And I could talk about that a little bit later because I think foot patrol is kind of important. But I remember one time going to. There was this movie theater called the Flick movie theater. It was right on Fremont Street. And I remember going in and. And going to a hotel getting. They would compass our dinner. So we get a comp and go eat dinner at one of the hotels. I remember meeting the security guard. He gave me a comp. I went, ate dinner and then I got out. You talking about foot patrol? I got out to walk my food off about an hour or so later, and I go in the Flick Motel. And it was one of those kind of triple X kind of movie theater. And the same security guard they gave me the comp was getting a blow job from a young guy in. In one of the back seats in his uniform. Wow.

[Theo]

Comp and dinner, huh? So he's just sitting in the back in a bowjob and what do you do? Do you go in there? Are you wearing like a shades and a. Like, are you hiding in the distance? What are you doing?

[Christopher Curtis]

No, no. So what? I hated having to do that because I was a rookie at the time. And. And like you walk in there and your boots are like sticky because, you know, all kind of disgusting, which is.

[Theo]

Kind of gross if I don't clean the place up. There it is right there.

[Christopher Curtis]

Oh, the Flick. You can still see the. Yep. That flicker. Yeah.

[Theo]

And were there live sex shows in there?

[Christopher Curtis]

No, they weren't. There was a movie theater, but they would want the rookies to walk through it so that stuff like that wouldn't happen. But what was weird was that this guy felt he was comfortable enough to go in. In his uniform and get a blowjob, you know, in a movie theater, like not even take his uniform off and go inside. And that was like that Wild west mentality. Vegas on that same street maybe a couple of weeks later. And this would happen frequently. I got a call of a person not answering their door at their hotel room. Go up to the hotel room with the pass key. Wow. Opens the door. They open the door. This dude was butt naked on the bed, completely bloated. He was, we say 419, which is the code for a dead body. Completely dead. He. I think rigor had. He might have started turning purple, if I recall, but he was definitely dead. And he had a picture of his family on the nightstand. So fast forward to the end of what happened was this guy came to Vegas on a. Like a conference or something like that. He has a beautiful family, picks up a hooker, tries to have sex with her heart, pops, and he dies. She leaves him, and she leaves with all of his stuff. And then that's the legacy that he leaves for his family. And it was almost like it was movie like, because on the nightstand, I. The guy carried a picture of his family and put it on the nightstand. And then I can see his dead fat body with little pee. Pee sticking out. And he's on the. And he's. And his kids with his wife's picture is right there. And you think about that kind of stuff. Like, see, when we talk about this police thing, I think that death is the recurring theme. And it gets scary, like, because you see so much. Like I would look at a dead body and I'd be like, did that guy realize that that was the last time he was gonna put on those underwear?

[Theo]

Right.

[Christopher Curtis]

That's the last time that he realized that he was gonna do that.

[Theo]

Brush his teeth, put lotion on his limbs or whatever. Yeah, yeah, dude, that's cr. Yeah. Sometimes I think, like. Like I have like a moment each day kind of where it's like sometimes it is kind of putting on your socks. You're like, what if this is the last day? You know, I think because that's one of the moments you're kind of suiting up for the day. I'll have moments like that. Yeah. What is that kind of. I guess if you see a lot of death, how does that change your perspective? Or do you think it does for officers or even just you personally?

[Christopher Curtis]

One time I was on a call where a guy hung himself, and I was second to arrive, and there was another cop in there, and the guy was there. He had cut him down, but left the ligature around his neck because they want to make sure that it was actually a suicide. And the guy was just Dead. And the cop was there playing with the guys. Because a lot of people in Vegas have those video poker, little handheld video poker things. I mean, because this was. They don't do it on their phone. And the cop was just sitting there. He was like, just talking to me, like. Yeah. And the guy was dead there. I'm talking about stuff from the beginning of my career, more so because I think that that really kind of formulated how my mind looked at death. And you know, it's evolved some, but that's. Those things stand out my mind. And I was like, dad, how's this cop sitting here playing this video game? And I was like, that's why he's playing the video game.

[Theo]

Right?

[Christopher Curtis]

That's why he's playing the video game. Because he's got to sit up here with this guy.

[Theo]

He needs an escape. Yeah. What do you want to sit here and look and keep taking the guy's pulse or. Yeah, it would be hard. It would be crazy if he's sitting there.

[Christopher Curtis]

Yeah.

[Theo]

Doing anything else besides trying to occupy his brain.

[Christopher Curtis]

You know, that same time period in my career, it also taught me a lot about what we do with our loved ones at the last moment. There was a recall. On domestics, you get a lot of recalls. There was this lady.

[Theo]

Okay. And on domestic. You mean by domestic violence. Yes, domestic violence. And there was a recall. You said it's a recall.

[Christopher Curtis]

A lot of times you end up having to go back to the same address multiple times.

[Theo]

Okay, so that's a recall. So we had recall back out to so and so.

[Christopher Curtis]

And I remember it was really, really pretty kind of. I'm guessing that because I was a. Maybe I'm in our early 20s, I'm going to guess this lady was about 30 something. Really, really pretty, light skinned black lady. And she had some kids and she got. She had recently been divorced and so she got the two. She got a son and a daughter. Daughter was about 14 and this son was about maybe 9. I'm just guessing these ages. And I remember these kids would like be so mean to their mom because the divorce caused them to pick sides because the mom ended up with the custody of the kids. And the dad was a pretty violent guy and she would always call if he was coming through. And I remember going. And the kids were just so mean to their mom. After maybe the third recall, there was a call to the residence. I was just about to get off on graveyard of gunfire and I showed up and the mom was laying on the sidewalk shot in the face by the dad. And the kids were screaming, my mom. What am I going to do without my mom? I mean, just screaming, you can feel that go through your whole body. But you have to remain professional. And in my mind, I'm saying, but you never said that to her when she was alive. I didn't say that to them because these kids are going through trauma. Why didn't you say that to them, to her, when she was alive? So when I talk to people about policing, it's nice to tell stories. But is there a lesson that I can learn from this? If someone watches. That's why I really like you, man, because people relate to you, dude. And there's some kid or someone watching this that's maybe going through something, and if they can take. Take that away, that, you know what I'm going to say, I love you, or I'm going to hold back yelling and being rude to you just because I'm having a bad day, then this, you know, to me is a win.

[Theo]

Yeah, I think it's hard for children to learn that. I think one of the things that I think. And I don't have any children. I've been a child, but I don't have any children. But I think one of the things is nobody teaches you kind of how, you know, a lot of times to interact, you know, how to express your feelings. Like, and I think a kid, you kind of feel like they just are going to know those things naturally, you know, how to talk to their. I mean, I think parents probably talk about how to speak to your mother, how to speak to your father. But I think sometimes there is this missing element sometimes of, like, how to feel what a feeling is, you know, like, kids may be confused. They may think something's anxiety for a lot, and it's really just a feeling, you know, it's like. I think some of that. I think there's a missing piece of education there, and I'm not even blaming it on parents or anything. I think it's just a part of our. Maybe our culture that could be more expanded upon and maybe even classes in school. I know it sounds crazy.

[Christopher Curtis]

No, it doesn't. It sounds real. Yeah.

[Theo]

But if somebody would have told me in school how to recognize if one of my friends might be struggling. Right. Or how to, like, you know, approach an issue if there's something, you know, some type of thing goes on, or if somebody's, you know, like, how I'm feeling about shit, I think that could have been super helpful.

[Christopher Curtis]

I agree 100%. And as we get older, I think that we learn how to do it better, but there's so many young people suffering. And, you know, I hate to use the word term bullying because it sounds kind of corny, but, like, I don't like bullying in any way, shape or form. There's someone going through something so difficult. We have no idea how, you know, that saying that says, be kind for everyone you meet is fighting a very hard battle. You know, I don't go to Vegas as much. You know, I go to Vegas a couple of times out of the year for just different things because obviously I still have some roots there. But even being a New Yorker, I spent so many years there. The last time I came to went to Vegas, or maybe it was the last time my daughter picked me up, right? My oldest daughter picked me up. She's amazing. All my kids are amazing. But my oldest daughter picked me up. And she says, we coming back from the airport and we drive by this apartment community. And without even thinking.

[Theo]

By an apartment community?

[Christopher Curtis]

Yeah, by apartment community. And without even thinking, I was like, oh. Cause when you're a cop, you're like, okay, that happened there. That happened there. That's all you think about. And I remember, I said, I'm gonna tell you. I told her the story that there was this pizza delivery guy, his girlfriend went to pick him up from work, and she rode on him on his last delivery. And these guys come out from the bushes and rob and shoot and kill him. I was the first to arrive. I get there and this girl grabs my arm and she's saying, wake him up. Wake him up. And do you know in the Bible, there's a story where this woman walks by, and I'm not saying that I'm Jesus by any shape, but where the woman touched Jesus. And he said he felt, you know, he instantly turned and knew that he was touched. There's power that goes through people when they're going through things. And, like, that's why I feel like being a cop for that long. I don't know that the human psyche is meant to be able to deal with going through that. It's like, you go to work, you're like, okay, give me a conflict. Okay, I'm done with that one. Give me another conflict. All right, I'm ready. Give me another conflict. I go to lunch, then I go home and gotta deal with my own conflict. You know what I'm saying?

[Theo]

And you have to go to lunch. Dude. What kind of lunch goes with a homicide burning? You know, like, yeah. Oh, yeah, I'll have Nuggets after a burning, like. But then at the same time, you still have to eat, right? But it's like, yeah, you see fucking Ronnie's having, you know, eight pack of nuggets and it's like, dude, calm down. You fucking had four drownings this morning. Morning. And you're out here just nuggetting up. Yeah, I can't even imagine. I would be so. It'd be crazy to see a pairing menu for crimes and then different, you know, I think if there's a couple B E's or whatever, you know. Yeah, I'll have a appetizer.

[Christopher Curtis]

You feel me being E. You mean breaking and entering?

[Theo]

Yeah. I'm trying to work back with you, dude.

[Christopher Curtis]

I got you. I got you.

[Theo]

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[Christopher Curtis]

Disgusting.

[Theo]

So now he has still has to deal with the other. He has to fill out reports. It's four hours before he even gets to think about. And the whole time he has like. You know. But yeah, I just. You guys are like the drain of society. You guys have to be this catch all in this. You have so many responsibilities.

[Christopher Curtis]

It's tough. It really is. You know, and there's a story that. That story that you just told me reminded me of. And again, it's a nexus to. About how we treat humans.

[Theo]

What's a nexus mean?

[Christopher Curtis]

Nexus is like a connection to. So. So when one thing connects to another thing. Okay, so the. This. Because the story that you told me reminded me of this story where I negotiated this guy. So I get a call. I was a sergeant actually, at the time. So I. I ended up negotiating because I was part of this crisis intervention team.

[Theo]

Okay.

[Christopher Curtis]

So I go from Southeast area Command all the way to downtown. It's Valentine's Day, February 14th. A lot of people end up attempting or committing. We'll say 405. We. Our term for them unliving themselves is 405.

[Theo]

Okay.

[Christopher Curtis]

Day 405 on these. On these holidays or at, you know, cemeteries sometimes. But this guy's on Fremont street, about 14th in Fremont, walking up and down, and he's got a gun in his hand. And so they pull me into the scene, they put me in a car, and I'm like, the guy. I mean, the guy was like about maybe about 12 or 13ft that way when we first drove by. I'm like, dag on, bro, you're gonna drive me this closer.

[Theo]

I'm so close.

[Christopher Curtis]

He was so. But they end up pulling behind this because it was really kind of a haphazard thing because the patrol officers pulled up on him. No one called. I think the guy just. The patrol officer pulls up. So the perimeter was set up kind of weird. So we pull up and I get to a safe distance behind. And so I start on the PA talking to the guy.

[Theo]

So you're the negotiator?

[Christopher Curtis]

Yeah. So I'm talking to him.

[Theo]

You're the responsible.

[Christopher Curtis]

I'm the responsible. Right.

[Theo]

Okay.

[Christopher Curtis]

And so I'm saying to him. And then I look at the guy. He looks kind of Latino. So then I start saying. And I said, Maybe I say it in Spanish. So then in Spanish I start giving, you know, saying to him, listen, you know, giving him the whole thing, right? And he keeps starting to raise the fire. And I keep going like this because all, you know, these guys, you know, officers with their rifles on him and office. And I'm like, this guy's gonna get. And I can see him talking to him. And then one time he lifts, they light him up. So we all just run across the street and these weird things happen when, when you're in a very critical situation like that. I remember one of the first things I noticed was that his pinky was. Was shot off when I first got up to him. So we get the scene, calm down. And then I see also in his boot he had a derringer, a little small.22 derringer. The gun that he had was not real. It was a replica firearm. If I recall. It was a pellet, something like that. This is what's called suicide by cop. I don't know if you're familiar with that term.

[Theo]

Now I am. Now I totally understand it. They trick you into shooting him, right?

[Christopher Curtis]

Because they don't want to do it themselves. What? Yes, because. Well, some people. Because, remember, for religious reasons, they feel like if they kill themselves, that's the last act that they committed and they're. Or some people just don't have, I guess I don't want to say courage.

[Theo]

Because it's ballsy to unalive yourself.

[Christopher Curtis]

Yes, it is. So 405 is a serious thing. So those are some replica fires. It was a legit. I shot a guy with one of those. By the way.

[Theo]

That'S a six hour, right? I have a six hour. Oh, yeah, I kind of prefer a Glock.

[Christopher Curtis]

Yeah, it's just, it's a personal preference. You know, I have a few different guns. My favorite gun is my AR pistol, though, you know, But I mean, I'm not a big gun person, but I strongly believe in protecting mine.

[Theo]

Yeah. Oh, for sure. That's why I live in a state where you can, where you can have a weapon too, is nice. So in that instance, say you're. You're just, you're talking to somebody. It's a hostage negotiation situation, right?

[Christopher Curtis]

Yes. But you know, let me just tell you one other part of that story that I'm gonna tell you. Forgive me.

[Theo]

Yeah. No one.

[Christopher Curtis]

So what happened was we had to go to Corona inquest for that. And we all go and we get. Did he go to what it's called the coroner's inquest where everyone gives testimony about.

[Theo]

Is that the same day?

[Christopher Curtis]

No, no, no, it's sometime after. Because homicide has to collect their information and everything. And mind you, this is some weeks later. So this lady, after all the officers and everyone testify, this lady walks and no one knows who she is. And she's in this kind of like plain Jane kind of outfit. And she walks up to the front and it's almost like a movie scene because it's all quiet because I didn't know who she was. And she gets up, they swear in or whatever, and she says, I just want you to know that while you guys were on the police side, this person was my brother. I'm not here to try to defend his behavior. I just came. So officially, you know, that someone loved him. And then she got up and she left.

[Theo]

Wow.

[Christopher Curtis]

And so to me, it's like you never know what someone's going through in life when you go, you know, with the whole road rage thing or whatever, you know, like, maybe that person may let me cut them a little bit of slack, you know, let me cut them a little bit. And I mean, I'm raising my hand. I'm very, very guilty.

[Theo]

Oh, for sure. All of us are. I don't think. It doesn't sound like we're trying. Like you're trying to exclude yourself. It's just like. Yeah. It's funny. You get so active and so animated. It's hard to sometimes have that. That control, you know?

[Christopher Curtis]

Yeah.

[Theo]

And self control is such a huge thing. But God, that's powerful moment. I just wanted you to know that. That somebody loved this person.

[Christopher Curtis]

Yes. It was deep, man. Yeah.

[Theo]

Because otherwise you just see this person. A lot of times you don't even get a story. You don't even know their story. You just pull up, somebody's deceased, somebody's killed someone, somebody's tried to take their own life. What's that moment when you're negotiating, Right. And you were so. Or do you have a weapon on the person or you don't have a weapon on. You're kind of.

[Christopher Curtis]

No. So negotiation happens in a lot of different ways. That's atypical way because from the negotiation team, they set up a command center, the whole nine yards. You're very far back. I mean, sometimes you don't get on the phone for maybe an hour. You could be two hours later. That situation was a very critical situation where they needed someone who had training on the scene. So what's kind of fun that I've been able to deal with those kinds and also the kind where you're in the tactical operations center. So, you know, another one of those kind of dynamic situations was a guy who was inside had a gun. His neighbor called and I was negotiating. And it's called a face to face. But it's really. We weren't really face to face because we don't do face to face. It's like it's incredibly dangerous. But I was actually in patrol at the time and I was the first to arrive and I ended up getting a rapport with this guy and I talked to him and talked to him and we, I developed, you know, I want to say liking the guy, you know, and understanding what he was going through. He's going through and you know, usually like three things. You know, it's usually a health issue, loneliness, you know, family loss and a financial issue or a medical issue. It's any one of various things. And he was going through like maybe all of those things. And I remember talking to him and I'm like. And he says, you know what? We got to a point where he said, you know, I'm going to come out, but I want to come out and I want to talk to you. Will you walk with me to the ambulance? Because I told him he was going to go to the ambulance and get transported. And I did that. And I stayed with him at the ambulance. The ambulance people come out to me and they say, hey, officer, you might want to come see this. I go inside and inside of his drawer, stacks of kiddie porn. Stacks of it.

[Theo]

Dang.

[Christopher Curtis]

Now, mind you, I would talk this guy out of 405ing, right?

[Theo]

You talking him from out of unaliving himself. And then now you're like, look what I've done.

[Christopher Curtis]

It's really.

[Theo]

Is that the thing? It's like I kept this person alive.

[Christopher Curtis]

It's like you have this really kind of do out like this.

[Theo]

It's really like if I had my choice, if I was able to walk up on somebody in over the wild west, I would probably, you know, you, you.

[Christopher Curtis]

It's a very difficult, difficult situation to be in. And you know, when you talk to a person for extended periods of time, it's called Stockholm. And you. Have you heard of Stockholm syndrome?

[Theo]

Stockholm syndrome? Yeah. Let's bring it up. Let me read the definition of it because I always hear it and I even say it. And I thought originally it was people from Norway that got lost or whatever. I think bank, but let me think.

[Christopher Curtis]

It was a banker.

[Theo]

Stockholm syndrome is. What'd you say?

[Christopher Curtis]

It's A bank robbery thing.

[Theo]

Oh, it's a bank robbery thing. Stockholm syndrome is a psychological response where a hostage or victim develops positive feelings or emotional attachment to their captor or abuser, often as a coping mechanism during prolonged captivity or abusive situations. So it's kind of like marriage or whatever, but it's like, very severe. And that's just a joke, but yeah, so psychological. So that's interesting. Speaking of, like, that kind of thing, you hear a lot about child trafficking. You hear a lot about trafficking. That is a buzzword right now, for sure. Did you see a ton of that kind of stuff or is some of that. Because I'm not saying it doesn't happen. I know that there's a lot of things like that. But is there a lot. Is some of that just heightened? Because we hear about it every single day now. Did you see a lot of that sort of thing or what do you see?

[Christopher Curtis]

So, okay, what. Define child from your definition of child?

[Theo]

That's a great question. So I guess you would think of. Right. Did you see a lot of pedophilia? Or did you see. Did you see, like, more like people just trafficking, like prostitution, type of that, being run by pimps? Like, what did you see? Kind of like what kind of.

[Christopher Curtis]

Those things were separate. Kind of separate. Right, the pedophilia. You'd see, like, familial stuff like that. Or you would see, like, that guy that had the pictures inside the room. It wasn't a person running, you know, females. One time I was. I was actually with the Cops TV show for this. In this episode, they couldn't air because we drove into the desert because a vagrant had found a campsite and there was a person who was living there. And this guy. And I'm gonna assume it was a guy because we never caught him. But all of these pornographic magazines. This is scary, man. He cut little kids faces out of other regular magazines and pasted the little kids faces on all these explicit magazines. So this is the type of person you think would be like a serial, like kidnapper rape, like, whatever. And the cops didn't end up airing it. And I'm sure why. Because it was incredibly graphic and creatively weird and disgusting at the same time. And we never, ever caught the guy. Never caught him.

[Theo]

What was the campsite like?

[Christopher Curtis]

It was just a disgusting campsite in the desert area. Cause Vegas has a lot of desert areas. So if you. Especially if you go, like to the north northwest area and vagrants kind of hang out there kind of a little near Nellis, Air Force base, like jugs.

[Theo]

Of pee, pee, stuff like that. Like just like stuff like food, stuff sitting around. It's like somebody just exactly like that.

[Christopher Curtis]

You know, old, you know, cans, beer, you know, beer bottles, soda bottles. There was like a sleeping bag and stuff like that.

[Theo]

That's so bizarre.

[Christopher Curtis]

Yeah.

[Theo]

So that's kind of like as far as like a perverted type of thing, you see. And it's kind of crazy, like, like it's crazy what happens mentally to people that they, that, that becomes something for them, you know, like what sickness happens inside of them, you know. And a lot of that you hear too is cyclical, I think. Right?

[Christopher Curtis]

Yeah, it is. And you know, that's one of the things that I saw. Yeah. So that the one that was molested ends up molesting.

[Theo]

Yeah. Is that true? Let's look up what percentage of people that get molested end up becoming molested. And I don't know if that's the right terminology, but you always hear that. So let me see if I can get a little bit of information with that right now. Trevin, if you have something, just wonder if that's fact or fiction.

[Christopher Curtis]

I think it would probably be significant.

[Theo]

There is widespread belief in a cycle of child sexual abuse, but little empirical evidence for this belief. The aims were to identify perpetrators of such abuse who had been victims of pedophilia and or incest in order to ascertain whether subjects who had been victims become perpetrators. The results. Among 747 males, the risk of becoming a perpetrator was positively correlated with reported sexual abuse victim experiences. The overall rate of having been a victim was 35% for perpetrators and 11% for non perpetrators. Of the 96 females, 43% had been victims, but only one was a perpetrator. A high percentage of male subjects abused in childhood by a female relative became perpetrators. That's interesting. Having been a victim was a strong predictor of becoming a perpetrator, as was an index of parental loss in childhood. Wow. The data supports the notion of a victim to victim cycle in a minority of male perpetrators, but not among the female victims studied. That's interesting that some of them also having become a victim of strong index of parental loss, that sometimes you, you, you do that if you lost a parent.

[Christopher Curtis]

Yeah, that's interesting. I don't even know why that would happen.

[Theo]

Huh. Just kind of interesting because you always hear that, you know that it happens a lot in male. And then you see there it happens a lot of males, but not as much in females. What, in Vegas? Yeah. You run across, you know, everybody's there to have the craziest time.

[Christopher Curtis]

Yes.

[Theo]

Right. Everybody's there to have, you know, bonkers times. And I'm sure. And there's tons of like prostitution, sex work, girls who were just partying for money. I mean, there's everything there.

[Christopher Curtis]

The prostitution on Vegas is just off the meter. A lot of people think that it's legal in Vegas. It's not legal in Vegas. It's legal a little bit north in Nye county. You can go to the, there's a Chicken Ranch and there's other places that people can go. But in Vegas, it's illegal, it's a misdemeanor, but it's. It's still illegal. But inside the clubs, inside the casinos, I mean, there's tons of girls who are working. And most of them, not most of them, a lot of them work for pimps.

[Theo]

Oh, they do.

[Christopher Curtis]

A lot of them do.

[Theo]

What's that kind of connection? Would you see that sometimes? Like, does the pimp come and drop them off? Does the pimp put them? Does he like uber pool them or whatever? Like, how do they get the hook the women down to the strip or whatever? Is the pimp down there?

[Christopher Curtis]

So there's a thing. Well, pimps, a lot of times, from a pimp perspective, they, they have a stable of women and they'll go from place to place to place. Like they'll go to Miami and bring their girls to Miami to work. They'll bring their girls to, you know, New York or Vegas or whatever. And there's a. And these girls are called, I don't like the terminology, but they call carpet hoes or holes that actually work inside of casinos. And they'll walk inside the hole, inside the casino, on the carpet, and they'll go make their money, come back and give it to the pimp. Then you have the lower level prostitutes, which are the ones that work the tracks. And a track is a place where it's known for prostitution. And Vegas and every other major city has tracks. And lower level pimps will drop their girls off on the tracks and then they'll walk the track and make their money. Then you have the ones that are the call girls who work out of the books and they're the most high level females that a person can interact with.

[Theo]

The track, the people who drop some off of the tracks. What kind of v. What kind of vehicles do pimps drive? Do they still drive like these crazy classy cars or they drive a van?

[Christopher Curtis]

Like, so, you know, I'm still I'm retired, so now it may have changed, but I can tell you that in the time when I was working, their cars stood out. It wasn't like the 1970s pimp mobile type vehicles, but you would see the nicer Escalades or whatever types of vehicles. But we would know because, I mean, if you're on a Boulder highway, which is a really, really kind of seedy area, especially where the track is by five points.

[Theo]

Boulder highway. It's called.

[Christopher Curtis]

It's called Boulder Highway Five Points. Yeah. Because five points of the city intersect at that location. And that's a track. It's still a track.

[Theo]

Okay, let's see that. Boulder highway, five point points.

[Christopher Curtis]

Yeah. Because when. Sometimes if I go, I'll drive just to see what places are still popping.

[Theo]

Yeah, sure, brother. And a lot of the pimps, are they. What types of guys are they? Black men? Are they Asian men?

[Christopher Curtis]

Black men?

[Theo]

It is.

[Christopher Curtis]

Black males are mostly pimps.

[Theo]

So that's more. It's a black.

[Christopher Curtis]

Yes, right.

[Theo]

It's a black culture thing, huh?

[Christopher Curtis]

It is. You didn't know that?

[Theo]

I've seen. I've thought that because the pimps that I've met. The pimps that I've met, I've only maybe met three pimps, but two and a half of them, or one of them was mixed, but two of them were full or potentially full black.

[Christopher Curtis]

But even in rap culture, you can hear people talk about pimp culture.

[Theo]

Oh, yeah.

[Christopher Curtis]

So it's. Yeah, it's like very. It's very clear that that's a subculture of.

[Theo]

I just didn't know if it was also Chinese or Russian type of thing, you know. Do you see a lot of that Vietnamese stuff?

[Christopher Curtis]

No, not in my career. I didn't see that. But in New York, I know that, you know, the Russians have a lock on a lot of different vices. In New York, that didn't really translate into Vegas as much.

[Theo]

At a certain point, do you let the women trick. Do you let them do whatever they gotta do out there? Like, I mean, what do you. You just wanna make sure they're safe at a certain point, if you know the crime is gonna go on. Right. If it's a kind of a fluid crime that happens regularly, is there more of a idea like, okay, we just want this to happen safely, or is it more of an idea of like, we want to stop this?

[Christopher Curtis]

So. So it's a very good question. So there's only so much you could do. Right. So the primary responsibility for a patrol officer is to respond to Calls for service. So I'm gonna speak to. When I was a patrol officer and.

[Theo]

I'm talking about prostitution, right?

[Christopher Curtis]

For prostitution. So, I mean, you see two or three prostitutes walking up and down the street. I mean, you can only stop one. But most of the time they would. If they saw the patrol car, they would just keep walking. And if I hung out in the area long enough, they would realize that no trick is gonna stop and pick them up. So you could affect it like that. But then you get a call for service and then you gotta leave and then they're gonna be back doing exactly what they wanna do. Is it. Was it a crime that I was really super concerned about? No, it wasn't. But it looks bad when I'm part of the responsible party of keeping that area safe. And, you know, if you have a prostitution situation going on, either something else is gonna occur, you know, connected to that. There's either she's gonna get beat up or she's gonna steal his money. A lot of times they would do that to guys. Like they could take their money because they weren't. The guy wouldn't report it to the police. That would happen for low level, for people who wanted to buy drugs too. You would get these kids from the Midwest to come there, or they're in Vegas, okay, we go down on Fremont, let's go buy some. Whatever they want to buy. And I'm going to fill in the blank of whatever drug it could be. And they would just rob them, they would give them whatever and they'd say, go call the police if you. And then what are they going to do? They're not going to call the police. And then you got all of this crap going on and it looks bad. It's like, why? Why are tax dollars paying for the police if we're not going to keep the area clear? So I think to answer your question, yeah, what I would do mostly is I would leave the prostitutes alone, with the exception of interacting with them, to say, hey, time to clear out.

[Theo]

Do officers respond to in casino activities or do in casino security? Respond to those so that it's not a public thing?

[Christopher Curtis]

Right. So the casino security are pretty high level, they're pretty well trained, they handle what they can, but they can't arrest anyone. So if it's a felony, we have to come and take care of it. For most misdemeanors, a lot of times they would give a person a warning. I got called to casinos a lot of times for a lot of different things. I mean, because you Know, people get drunk, high, you know, I told you, if we have dead bodies, obviously the police have to respond to dead bodies.

[Theo]

That's crazy.

[Christopher Curtis]

Oh, yeah. But. And a lot of times people die in these casinos.

[Theo]

What do they die? Overdoses, probably.

[Christopher Curtis]

A lot of times it's overdoses, really.

[Theo]

And is it a lot of times just people doing cocaine by themselves? Is it. What is it you think?

[Christopher Curtis]

So let me speak to the things I can specifically remember. So sometimes it's been just overpartying over exertion of their heart. And it could be a combination of using drugs, trying to have some sex that they weren't capable of doing. But a lot of times it's an overexertion in trying to put too much in a weekend and thinking that Vegas is gonna be the panacea to whatever they had going on in their life back in Minnesota. And it wasn't.

[Theo]

Yeah. Was there ever, like, a murder in a casino?

[Christopher Curtis]

A murder in a casino? No, I've never ever responded to a. A murder in a casino. I've responded to a lot of different murders, but in the patrol capacity, a lot of times those murders were either a robbery. The really sad ones were obviously the domestic violence ones. But the casinos, they did a pretty decent job of the ones. The casinos that I dealt with of kind of monitoring their clientele. Vegas, because you get issues like that, and then people are not going to come back to. Casino Vegas is run by money. And most of the directors of these casinos are people who were cops before for.

[Theo]

Oh, that's true.

[Christopher Curtis]

Yeah.

[Theo]

It's just like. Yeah. People that lobby and people that work in Congress. Like, you're only so far from the other side.

[Christopher Curtis]

Yes.

[Theo]

It's like once you know so much about being an officer, at a certain point, the criminals might hire you because you know so much about being an officer. It's like there so many things are kind of simpatico like that. What about. Did. Did prostitutes offer cop stuff a lot? Does that happen or no?

[Christopher Curtis]

Yeah, there were some cops, they've gotten in trouble for getting some of the, you know, prostitution stuff on the side. And that's another thing is that they. You ever heard the badge bunnies? So it's not just prostitutes. It's just a lot of times women in general would offer police, you know.

[Theo]

Sex or sexual activities.

[Christopher Curtis]

Yeah, activities.

[Theo]

Oh, yeah. A lot of the chicks over by. We had a foot Locker bus. A lot of chicks over there was always trying to slurp on the cops or whatever.

[Christopher Curtis]

One of my TAC officers, the guys who teach you when you're in academy, said, this badge will get you a whole bunch of coochie, but one coochie will take that badge away.

[Theo]

Damn.

[Christopher Curtis]

And it's true.

[Theo]

And would a lot of, A lot of officers still like, whatever. This is part of my.

[Christopher Curtis]

I had a cough one time. This dude was super squared away. I mean, tall, good looking, I mean, straight out of central casting. And I'm definitely not going to say his name. I had a ton of respect for this guy, for sure. In fact, I think he was good enough to almost play professional baseball, if I recall. He. I was his, I was his boss at the time. And he, he goes on a call and this girl he was supposed to take, I think a burglary report, if I recall. And he ends up hooking up with the girl and realizes that he screwed up and the girls, I guess, having feelings for him. And so he ends up going and putting a hoodie on and going and trying to buy the morning after pillow at a convenience store or whatever, or cvs, wherever you can buy the morning after pill. And he had called me and said, hey, I'm not feeling well, can I get off early? And I just. This guy was so sharp, I was like, yeah, go ahead, go home. And it. So he. And he tells the girl he wants her to take the morning after pill. And then she ends up calling the police, calling police. And then it turns and he lost his job over it. And then there's a video of him. This is like a married guy with a hoodie on going in, buying the morning after pillow. And it was that temptation story involving me. I went on a call, it was loud music call, and it was all these girls that came in drunk from a party, all really hot girls. And it was like three of us on the call and we told them to turn the music down. And this beautiful girl looks at me and she says, and they're like, oh, she got her navel pierce. She got her navel pierce. And I was like, oh, cool. And she goes like this, she goes look and pulled her dress up, no panties on, and showed me her navel pierce. Yeah, that kind of stuff happens.

[Theo]

And what do you do?

[Christopher Curtis]

I'm just kidding.

[Theo]

When you look or not, of course.

[Christopher Curtis]

I mean, she was standing right there. I wasn't, you know, I just said, no, you know, we're gonna leave. You know, you gotta be professional and you gotta go. But you're gonna get that kind of stuff all the time. I mean, there was a time, I mean, you write people Tickets. They track you down and you wanna, you know, meet up or connect or whatever. There are people who just have a thing for police.

[Theo]

Is it hard to say no to that type of thing now at some point?

[Christopher Curtis]

No, because you get off shift. I mean, you get off shift and you can, you know, know meet the person after. You don't have to try to do it on duty.

[Theo]

Oh, so you could still do it at off duty.

[Christopher Curtis]

It depends on what kind of situation. Right. There were guys, now there are cops who have banged the. The white. They were this. Stories happen more than once where a guy. A cop arrests a guy, the husband for domestic violence and hooks up with the wife. No, that's happened more than once.

[Theo]

What's that called? Is there a felony?

[Christopher Curtis]

I mean. I mean, a bad business. I mean, it's just. It's really bad business. I mean, damn.

[Theo]

Yeah. I was wondering if there's a term for that.

[Christopher Curtis]

Yeah, it's bad. It's a very, very bad thing.

[Theo]

What are some of the. I heard you talk about suicide earlier with the guy. Or maybe it was drug use. Where it was Valentine's Day, I guess.

[Christopher Curtis]

The Valentine's Day guy.

[Theo]

Is that a scary time? Like, what's like one of the most dangerous holidays?

[Christopher Curtis]

New Year's Eve, really? I didn't like working New Year's Eve because so many people shoot guns in the air and all kinds of stuff like that. And I remember I went on a.

[Theo]

Call one time, a lot of it's Mexican people out things. I'm not saying any. And whites.

[Christopher Curtis]

Well, the story that I went to is a lady, what goes up must come down. Someone shot a gun up and bullet came down and was right in her boob. Yeah. So that's a cautionary tale to people who go out and shoot on Valentine's Day. Of course, we didn't catch the guy, but. Yeah, so I didn't. I didn't. And New Year's Eve is just people getting wild and drunk and fighting. The one time a person spit in my face was on New Year's Eve. A woman.

[Theo]

What do you do then?

[Christopher Curtis]

It was tough deal. I was gonna. I was about to retire, man. And this girl was just incredibly drunk. You know, she couldn't go into the casino. We end up getting her into custody. My officers got her in custody. And I'm trying to calm her down face to face. And she just spit right in my face, man. Damn. I'm telling you, it took everything. You know, I saw my whole career mass and you know. And she ended up getting Booked on that because, you know, that's a crime, obviously. And we went to court and she was dressed up completely nice, and they offered her a deal if I would agree to her getting. And I gave her the deal, man.

[Theo]

Wow.

[Christopher Curtis]

Gave her the deal. People get drunk and do stupid things, man. It sucked getting. You know, not only does the smell and all that other stuff suck, but what sucks is being humiliated on Fremont street on New Year's Eve in front of thousands of people and seeing people laughing at you for being spit upon sucked, man. It really did. But you gotta, you know, to me, you gotta learn to forgive, man.

[Theo]

Yeah. Well, you're out there, though, in moments like. Yes, you do. It's really. It's interesting because I feel like we're at this juxtaposition sometimes in society where it's like, you know, yes, you want to treat people with respect. Yes, you want people to. You know, you want to believe that all people are good, but then it also, you. It starts to be like. It feels like the bad stuff is winning sometimes.

[Christopher Curtis]

But I don't think that all people are good. I think that we are human that are capable of doing things that we don't even know that we're capable of doing. I have this thought that we if place in the right or wrong circumstance, a person that you would think would not do a certain thing would do that certain thing. That's the thing about being human. That's the beauty of. Of free will to some degree, in my opinion. Right.

[Theo]

There's that famous case where someone was giving someone an order, like through a wall or something. Can you find it really quick?

[Christopher Curtis]

Oh, and they were asking to shock and. Yeah, I think I know which case you're talking about. And the person. Yeah, they shot.

[Theo]

Yeah. The Milgram experience there is. In 1961, a series of social psychology experiments were conducted by Yale University psychologist Stanley Milgram, who intended to measure the willingness of study participants to obey an authority figure who instructed them to perform acts conflicting with their personal conscience. Participants were led to believe that they were assisting a fictitious experiment in which they had to administer electric shocks to a learner, which was another person. These fake electric shocks gradually increased to levels that would have been fatal had they been revived.

[Christopher Curtis]

What about the McDonald's one? Did you. Are you familiar with the McDonald's case? The police case where the guy.

[Theo]

Craziest thing I've ever heard.

[Christopher Curtis]

And just because he thought it was a cop, they were willing to go to that degree.

[Theo]

This is the craziest thing that ever happened. The Strip search phone call scam was a series of incidents mostly occurring in rural areas of the US that extended over a period of at least 10 years, starting in 1994. The incidents involved a man calling a restaurant or grocery store, and oftentimes it was a McDonald's claiming to be a police officer and then convincing managers to conduct strip searches of employees and to perform other bizarre and humiliating acts on behalf of the police. I was hard to laugh, but the shit is unreal.

[Christopher Curtis]

Yes.

[Theo]

With every hoax, a male caller who identified himself as a police officer would contact a manager or supervisor and would solicit their help in detaining an employee or customer who was suspected of a crime, such as a theft or drug possession. He would then provide a generic description of the suspect, like, oh, it's a female employee, et cetera, which the manager would recognize. And then he would ask the manager to search the suspected person. So basically, he's had a guy calling up McDonald's. Eventually, the caller would have groomed the manager to the point where they would do almost anything asked by the caller.

[Christopher Curtis]

Yes.

[Theo]

Such as spanking, kissing, inappropriate touching, oral sex, and even. And even sexual assault and rape. Many of the incidents would last hours. I'm sorry, man. This is not funny. I don't know what. I think there's something about it that many of this is fucking crazy, I think. Right?

[Christopher Curtis]

It's psychological.

[Theo]

It's crazy. Okay, good. Many of the incidents would last hours before either of the participants of the strip search realized the call is a hoax or by the intervention of a bystander.

[Christopher Curtis]

Do you know, even came. Is even crazier. This became a form of porn that became super popular.

[Theo]

Really?

[Christopher Curtis]

Yes. Where they were having. It would. Look. They were just filming exactly. Like. Like that. God. Yeah. I did a deep dive on this whole thing.

[Theo]

Yeah, this thing is fascinating. Yeah. Basically, they would call. They would have the manager to get the manager on the phone, and they'd be like, yeah, I'm calling with the police. We have security camera footage that one of your employees has been stealing. They would give a description of the employee. Then the manager would bring the employee into the back room with the police, alleged police officer still on the phone, and be like, okay, yeah, I need you to have the employee take off their shirt. Right?

[Christopher Curtis]

Yes.

[Theo]

And a lot of times the person might have access to the cameras in the. In the McDonald's or in the restaurant. So they can actually watch this somewhere afar, right?

[Christopher Curtis]

Yeah.

[Theo]

So but anyway, they'd be like, yeah, now have the person lift up their arms have them take off their bra, their pants or whatever, spread their leg. And you have this. This is crazy. You have a manager in McDonald's and an employee in McDonald's. Now they're both looking at each other's private parts for something. They didn't even say what they stole. Yeah, what are they gonna like, you know?

[Christopher Curtis]

And one of them was a husband and wife. The manager, the male manager and the female is a husband's a wife.

[Theo]

That's the best. Yeah, the, the, the, the lady was like, oh my God. Because she was a manager, she's like, it's busy today, I have to get back to work. She's like, let me call my husband, who I trust.

[Christopher Curtis]

Yes. And let him do it.

[Theo]

To come down here and finish this examination of this, of this female employee. So now you have the husband of the McDonald's manager sitting there strip searching a female employee who's done nothing the whole time. There's a cop on the phone. It's been a couple hours now. And at one point they told the girl, the woman I believe, to blow job the man. So now you have somebody who allegedly stole from McDonald's blowing the boyfriend of a man. I just, sorry, this is crazy.

[Christopher Curtis]

I don't understand how they could go that far.

[Theo]

And then at a certain point, the janitor literally gets on the phone. Yeah, this is a part right here. On February 2003, a phone call is made with McDonald's and high. I'm sorry, man, this shit. In Hinesville, Georgia, the female manager who believes she was speaking to a police officer who was with the director of operations for the restaurant's upper management that she believes she was speaking to, took a female employee into the women's bathroom and strip searcher. She also brought in a 55 year old male janitor who conducted a body cavity search of the woman to uncover hidden drugs. Yeah, it's just crazy. And then the Jan. And I think it was a different instance, but the janitor got on the phone one time, was like, oh, this guy's just screwing around.

[Christopher Curtis]

Yeah. Hung up.

[Theo]

So then people are just standing there naked and like, what the just happened? God, this is crazy that this was such a huge thing that happened. Can you imagine that?

[Christopher Curtis]

And it started. I couldn't believe it was true. I could not believe it was true. And it started when you were saying about the authority, right? Like just the authoritative voice or thinking that it's a police officer, that these people would be willing to do that. It's unbelievable to me.

[Theo]

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[Christopher Curtis]

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[Theo]

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[Christopher Curtis]

This one is, is tough man. So the call comes out and, and this was a swing shift call. So it's usually right before, you know, after 3pm swing shifts. 3pm until about 1am so the night hours, about 9 to 11 are the hours of things really pop off. So this call comes out where these guys are screaming on the phone, my brother's been shot. My brother's been shot. My brother's been shot. It happened at the Circle K. So I drive up to the address of where it is and these two guys are on the sidewalk just wailing like freaked. I know that. True. That's why it's hard for me to watch TV shows. But these guys are truly in charge. Trauma and they're wailing and I could see the car where they're talking about. They're like my Brother. My brother. My brother. And I go to the car, and I get to the window, and I see this, like, this guy had a lot of hair. It was all matted and mushed. And you can tell that he wasn't moving. And I open, and his face was just. Because he had been shot in the head, his face was just mush, and there was just all this nasty purple blood and everything. So I close the door and I go in. I talk to the brothers, and they tell me that they were driving by the Circle K and that someone shot at them. And I was like, it didn't make a lot of sense to me that the entry wound was in the back of the head and there's no entry in the window of the car. What turns out is it was three brothers in the car, and the brother in the back seat was playing with the gun, and he put it to his brother's head, joking around, and he pulled the truck trigger and shot and killed his brother. And so in that short period of time, the two alive brothers have to figure out a story, because this happened very, very quickly. And I remember when I. Because the brothers ended up confessing to. This is the trauma of killing your brother and then having to make up a story about it and having to deal with that grief. One of the most. Most like, wild, crazy things, because you do have. It was an accident, but it's negligence, but. Right.

[Theo]

But the biggest crime is that he. That he has to. Almost didn't deal with this burden.

[Christopher Curtis]

Yeah.

[Theo]

Of killing his own brother. It almost sounds Shakespearean or something.

[Christopher Curtis]

It is. And, you know, that's. You know, playing with guns is another thing, because one of the first calls I ever had to translate on was because we had. We have aaa. Well, I don't say we because I don't live there anymore, but in Vegas, they have aaa. And they had this AAA team. This guy had Tommy John surgery, and Dominican guy had Tommy John. And so he was partying with his friends. They brought some girls over, and he was playing with a gun and shot this young girl in the head. She was probably, like 19 years old. Killed her. And I walk into the. I walk into the. I walk upstairs, I walk into the apartment, and the girl, her eyes were open, and she was just to the side like this. And the guy is just like. He's completely freaked out, and he's thinking about his career.

[Theo]

Career.

[Christopher Curtis]

Right. And so he didn't speak English, so I'm, you know, translating to him in Spanish, and I'm like, the stupidity again of Playing with a freaking gun. You just. This life is done, you know, I mean, you're done. Your career is what you're thinking about right now. How do you live with that? Don't even think about the legal stuff that you have to go through. Living with the fact that you took this like 18 or 19 year old girl's life because you wanted to show up and play with their guns. So that like there's another lesson. It's like, do not play with frigging guns. And they're not toys. They're really not toys. And so many people do. So many people do.

[Theo]

It's ridiculous. Dude, I would not. Yeah, we had a kid in high school and there was, I guess, kids playing poker together and he was messing with the gun and shot, shot himself. There were two brothers in our town and one of them, they were playing Russian roulette together and they were idiots, I'll be honest. They were dumb, not smart guys. And one of them shot himself. I mean, how. But what a weird moment. Then you're sitting, you're the brother. Like what even. We could have played a. No, we could have played hoops or something, you know, just like it's heartbreaking, man.

[Christopher Curtis]

Responsible gun ownership is good, but you know, when, when it comes to playing with guns or showing off with guns.

[Theo]

Yeah.

[Christopher Curtis]

I mean, it's just one of the stupidest things that you can possibly.

[Theo]

Have you ever been involved in a shooting?

[Christopher Curtis]

Yes, I have. And in fact I was mentioning earlier, I was involved in two and I was a sergeant on nine.

[Theo]

You were a sergeant on nine shootings?

[Christopher Curtis]

On nine different shootings, yeah. So I'm intimately.

[Theo]

And a shooting means somebody shot somebody or it means somebody shot an officer. It means an officer shot someone.

[Christopher Curtis]

It can mean any of those. But the ones I was involved in and the one that I was specifically referenced is this interesting story. Was a, A cop buddy of mine, this, this mom had, was taking her kids out and having one of the kids like make a commotion and then the rest of the kids would steal stuff and run out. So my buddy had a warrant for. At a grocery store at like a. More like those target type places.

[Theo]

Got it.

[Christopher Curtis]

My buddy had a warrant for one of the people in the family and he asked me to go with them to serve it. And it was, it was an arrest warrant. So we get to the apartment community and he thinks he sees one of the guys involved in this thing. And the guy I remember, he had on these red cargo shorts, a white T shirt, wife beater. And he goes, that's the guy. So there's a thing that we do is called contact cover, where one officer does all the talking and the other one covers to make sure that the person's not doing anything.

[Theo]

Oh, okay. So the guy up front can feel comfortable knowing that the guy behind him, his sole. His sole purpose is just to see if this dude tries to make a single move.

[Christopher Curtis]

Yep, it's called contact cover. And so I was the COVID officer. And as I'm looking at the guy, I see in his cargo pocket the outline of a gun. And so our code for gun is 413. So I made the fourth. I give 413 to him, to the office. Oh, my guy sees it and he's like, oh, shoot. So the guy was being. So there was yes people, no people, maybe people. And the guy was being a maybe, maybe person. Like, maybe I'll comply and that maybe people, we want to get them in custody. So I made the choice that I knew I could tell it was the gun. So I made the choice that I went and I grabbed it and this guy yanked away from me and he got away. And so the foot pursuit suit starts and he reaches into his cargo pocket and I'm running after him, gun drawn. And this was around 4:35 o' clock in Vegas. So it's still very light outside. And I'm running after him and he keeps turning around, looking at me, and I keep saying, if you pull that gun out of your pocket, I'm screaming, if you pull that gun. If you pull that. And then he pulled the gun and I lit him up. I remember after I shot that, you know, he does a somersault and everyone in this place is screaming at the target. At the apartment complex, at the apartment complex, everyone's screaming. And they were. This place was kind of anti police. They're like, oh, he shot that guy. He shot that guy. And the guy's mom came out, she was one of the first people to come out. He lived. It turned out that it was a replica gun.

[Theo]

It wasn't even a real gun.

[Christopher Curtis]

Replica. It was a replica that looked like a firearm.

[Theo]

Was not even a real weapon.

[Christopher Curtis]

It was not a fireable weapon. It was a replica. What?

[Theo]

That is even dumber than anything. Well, it actually is a blessing. Then it makes sense. It makes sense because it makes ntiy.

[Christopher Curtis]

Because a lot of those guys, they'll rob people with them.

[Theo]

Oh, I see.

[Christopher Curtis]

Or if someone, you know, and he's a gang member. And so a lot of times they'll flash those. Or if they have the inability to get something that's better than nothing. But it was just incredibly. And it became a race thing, which was really weird because I'm not white, you know, but the media portrays things a certain way and it flips.

[Theo]

Was it a black perpetrator?

[Christopher Curtis]

Yes.

[Theo]

Okay.

[Christopher Curtis]

Yes, he was. He is. He's still alive.

[Theo]

Wow. And do you choose at that point, are you trying to maim someone? Are you trying to just slow down?

[Christopher Curtis]

No, no, we shoot to impact incapacitate. You're taught to shoot center mass. But again, do you. Are you. Do you train running at full speed through an apartment? There's a whole bunch of different dynamic that come into play.

[Theo]

Yeah. That's got to be kind of fascinating with a lot of ra. Yeah. There's so much racial stuff surrounding police and policing. What does that look like from the inside? What's that? Because if you were. If it was a black group and you got accused and you're Dominican.

[Christopher Curtis]

No, I'm half black, half white.

[Theo]

Oh, you are. Okay, so you're black and white.

[Christopher Curtis]

Well, actually, both my parents are kind of mixed, so I guess I'm. But I'm consider myself black.

[Theo]

Yeah.

[Christopher Curtis]

But I speak Spanish because I learned to speak Spanish as an adult. That was an intent of mine. I respect cultures. I think that. And I lived in another country that spoke Spanish, so I felt that if you go into another country and learn.

[Theo]

Their language, I think that makes good sense. It just helps you probably too, 100%. Yeah. And probably help you so much in your service, in your. And you know. Because immediately you can relate with somebody else.

[Christopher Curtis]

Yes.

[Theo]

On a level that a lot of people wouldn't be able to. Yeah. What is ra? What is that profile? What is that like? There's so much racial stuff that revolves around the police all the time. Does that get uncomfortable out there in the streets? What is it like?

[Christopher Curtis]

It's really interesting because, you know, a lot of people being a white cop is really, really difficult. A white male cop. Because so often the default is that you did it because I'm this race and you're white. And I was around cops for 20 plus years, and I can only think of one instance, one instance where there was an overtly racial thing that occurred and it was a comment that was made in a briefing room. And. But as far as the treating of a person because they were a certain race, I've never seen that. And I'm hypersensitive to that kind of stuff. Like, I study that. In fact, I taught it for a while.

[Theo]

What is that Called.

[Christopher Curtis]

So some people call it diversity. My class was called human, and I called it the soul search warrant. And I think that we all have biases. All of us have biases.

[Theo]

Oh, for sure.

[Christopher Curtis]

And I think that you, as a comedian, know that part of those biases is what makes a lot of comedy funny. And most black comedians, the first thing that they talk about is how black people are a certain way and white people are a certain way. I mean, that's just kind of how we are, but we get along and it works. But in policing, to default that because one person is one color and another person is another color is the wrong way to look at it. I mean, this whole thing that happened with George Floyd, I mean, we're talking billions of dollars and people who were the cities that were destroyed and all this stuff. I have yet to see a piece of evidence that Derek Chauvin did that because George Floyd is black. I haven't seen that. Now, can I speak to the tactics? I can, of course, speak to the tactics.

[Theo]

Right. But. Right. Was race involved or was just a guy maybe, who didn't use the best tactics in the moment, who was probably also scared, who knows what was going on? I don't know exactly what he testified.

[Christopher Curtis]

I studied that case. You did? I did.

[Theo]

What did he.

[Christopher Curtis]

What.

[Theo]

What did Chauvin say?

[Christopher Curtis]

So looked at that. So I can tell you that. So here were the factors. And this is a big can of worms for us to open up. But I'll speak to some specifics because, you know, there. Now there's a push that he should be released. Right.

[Theo]

I've seen that.

[Christopher Curtis]

I've seen that.

[Theo]

But you're a police officer, are you? You've been a sergeant.

[Christopher Curtis]

Yes.

[Theo]

You know, so I'll tell you.

[Christopher Curtis]

I'll tell you my thoughts on it. You want to talk to that about that?

[Theo]

For sure. And you're black and white.

[Christopher Curtis]

Yeah, exactly, exactly.

[Theo]

So we can help.

[Christopher Curtis]

All right, so I'll tell you, here's my take on it, because I have cops who say, oh, yeah, that he was wrongly convicted. He was wrongly convicted. I say, okay, let's just set that aside for a second. You roll up on that scene and Chauvin has his knee on Floyd's neck. Tell me what you're going to do at that point. And he's not moving. What are you going to do?

[Theo]

Do?

[Christopher Curtis]

And every one of them says, of course I'm gonna tell him to get off. So I said, then we need to start from that point about the sanctity of a person's. Life. Let's forget about the fact that George Floyd was likely on a very high levels of fentanyl, which was proven and all that other stuff. But we're the professionals, right? We're the professionals, right?

[Theo]

Like, at what point do you not. Does the governor inside of you not activate or trigger that? It's like, okay, I have to go here from policing to person, from. To being human, you know, or. I don't know.

[Christopher Curtis]

Why can't policing be. Be human? You know what I'm saying?

[Theo]

That's.

[Christopher Curtis]

Yeah, I'll give you an example. Theo, check this out, right? Judge me on this really quickly, okay? This is a typical car stop. I pull you over. Sergeant Curtis Vaughan, Police Department. Reason I pulled you over is because you were speeding. License, registration, and proof of insurance. Please grade me on that abcd.

[Theo]

I would say B.

[Christopher Curtis]

Okay, you give me a B on that.

[Theo]

A to B.

[Christopher Curtis]

A to B. A to B. Okay. So now you go to a restaurant, I come up to your table, I'm like, hello, Mr. Vaughn, my name's Christopher. I'd like to tell you about our specials today. We got a chicken, we have a fish, and we have tiramisu. Grade me on that as your server.

[Theo]

A to B.

[Christopher Curtis]

So I'll tell you, you, I would not give that server an A to B. And most servers are going to come to you and be a lot more congenial than I was to you.

[Theo]

Yeah, probably a little more energetic.

[Christopher Curtis]

A little more energetic, A little more congenial. Shouldn't policing be even better? How about this? How you doing, sir? Sergeant Curtis Vaughan, Police department. I know this is probably not what you want to be doing right now, but I just want to explain something to you. We had a little kid almost got hit the other day, and we're pulling people over just to warn them to slow down and bit. If you give me a license, registration, proof, insurance, I try to get you out here as quickly as possible. I'm sure that you probably have something else more important to do. I just wanted to let you know that I'm here to help. That was maybe, what, 30 more seconds of words?

[Theo]

Yeah, I'm on a date now. But it changes the whole. It changes.

[Christopher Curtis]

It changes the whole thing. But this mechanics has changed. So what happened with this? Let's go back to what we were talking about with Chauvin and George Floyd. Right? When I watched the video, you definitely can see that George Floyd was having some issue with being claustrophobic and getting inside the vehicle. Okay. Now we're not Saying that it's made for comfort and if you get arrested, it's not going to be a fun experience, but can we be a little bit different? One cop said, I'll put the window down. I'll put the window down. And you can even see Floyd saying, I'll do the countdown. Let me count down before I get inside the car. Is it possible, Is it possible for us because especially if the person's handcuffed, to reach down into a degree of humanity to another human being and say, you know what, take a deep breath, I'll count with you. Can we get you in the car then? Let me tell you my name. My name is sergeant Curtis. I don't want to hurt you. Look at me in my face. Look at me. Take a deep breath, my man. Okay, I see you're breathing a little bit better now. You're gonna be going to jail and you gotta get in the car, but you gotta work with me now. Granted, I'm talking in an air conditioned place. I slept in a great hotel last night. And it's a lot easier than being in the field. But I've been in the field, you know, I've been in the field and I've made mistakes. But we gotta be better than kneeling on a person's neck for that period of time. So the specifics of what he was convicted for, I know that we could pull it up and look at it. One of the charges I believe he was convicted for was involuntary second degree murder. Right. I don't believe it was in. I don't believe he violent. I don't believe he was trying to kill George Floyd. I don't believe he's trying to kill him. But could his behavior have contributed to it? Possibly. You still kneeling on a person's neck for that period of time?

[Theo]

Yeah. You know, that's interesting. And then you're like thinking of what all is going around, around the environment at that moment. If people are you. Do you get caught in a. Almost in. Because you're a human, you're still a human. Right. And if you, if you're. Do you get caught in some weird flight or freeze thing?

[Christopher Curtis]

100%. You're 100% right. Because if you listen to the tape, there's a guy on the side that's yelling at Chovin. He said, look what you're doing. Get off that mask. And then what happens is then it becomes a battle between the officer and this other person. I'm standing my ground and you're yelling at me and I'm the officer here and nine minutes or six minutes or whatever minutes it was is really a mirror. Mere seconds because I'm locked into this as opposed to focusing on this person. That's why bystanders, to me, if you want to be a bystander, stand back, record, but don't be yelling. You're not helping the situation.

[Theo]

That ruins a lot of things. I think it does. But then also it's like you wouldn't have, you know, it's just, it's so, it's fascinating all the things that go on in that moment and how equipped are police officers, how equipped are human beings to deal with all of that at once? So now you're being recorded. You're in control. You're scared for your own safety. Safety. You're should be scared for the safety of your perpetrator or the person that you're putting under arrest. You know, it just, it's. I don't know how a human system even figures all that out.

[Christopher Curtis]

Sometimes you don't and we see what happens when you don't. That's why mental health awareness is so important for police. It's, it's, it's so, so important and not to be stuck in that, that, that just police ecosystem and have other things to do because that's what happened with that. In my opinion. That's what happened with that choke is what that he got locked into. I'm the officer because police have this thing called ask, tell, make ask tell make. You ask them to do it, they don't do it, you tell them to do it, then you make them do it.

[Theo]

Got it.

[Christopher Curtis]

But that model only works sometimes there is a model. So the father of modern day policing is a guy named Sir Robert Peel. Back in the 1800s, he created the first modern policing in England.

[Theo]

Sir Robert Peel, known as the father of modern policing, for establishing the first modern police force in London.

[Christopher Curtis]

That's why they call police bobbies, because of. After him.

[Theo]

Oh, Robert. Yeah. Bobby Peel, known as bobbies or peelers. How did Peel perform policing? Go ahead.

[Christopher Curtis]

So what he did was really interesting. He created this thing where it was the principles of policing that really the policing should be modeled after. I think that you could probably pull those up. The nine principles, principles of policing. But one of them that I find interesting and that I've always held, he talks about persuasion, advice and warning. I remember because of paw. Persuasion, advice and warning. So while modern day police have asked how make Peel talked of this thing called persuasion, advice and warning. So is there possible I could persuade this person. And obviously, if it's a dynamic situation and I gotta take care of business, then I have asset on make always in my pocket. Right. I got a big tool belt. But is persuasion, advice, warning something else I can put in my belt? Can I potentially persuade this person? Because time is often on the police officer's side. Persuasion. Can I give him some advice? Listen to me, sir. Listen. If you don't, the other officers are going to come here and they're going to make it more difficult. Don't you see that I'm working with you? And we can work together and get this thing done. We can do this together. Warning, if the other officers come and I step back, then they're going to be a lot different than I am. This is just another tool that the police can put in their belt so that we don't have to get into this situation. I bet you if Derek was to be able to go back and think back, I bet you he would have done things differently, in my opinion.

[Theo]

Yeah, I'm sure you kind of. What did he say? Did he. What was his testimony? What were the key points from his testimony, from Derek Chauvin's. Did he have. Did he take the stand? He decided not to testify in his own defense, exercising his Fifth Amendment right. Hmm. Wonder why they made that choice. Because you would think, oh, I don't know.

[Christopher Curtis]

But he's got the federal case. The federal case, and he's got the state stuff. And I think he's run. Has another case running concurrently for tax evasion as well. So he had a whole bunch of different things going. And I'm not saying that he was guilty of any of those things.

[Theo]

No, I think you're just looking at what happened. But it is fascinating how that turned into a racial thing, though, as well.

[Christopher Curtis]

And I say that all the time.

[Theo]

Yeah.

[Christopher Curtis]

Which. Which. Which case hat that? Can we definitely say that was race? Which one? It's very difficult to find that case.

[Theo]

And just. Because if you call. Well, what percentage of officers. I thought this. I thought that, well, each police department should have five different races at it. And you call and then that you get that race to come. Right. Then that way nobody could ever say that again.

[Christopher Curtis]

Yeah.

[Theo]

But, you know, I mean, that would be absolutely ridiculous. But it's like, is that what we should. That is that.

[Christopher Curtis]

You know, I think it's that because I don't agree with that model, because I think that that that separates us more and more. But you go to any bar in downtown Nashville and you're gonna find People of all different races sitting around and you might engage with a person. It takes us back away from the content of one's character. I don't. You know what people call racism? I think that it's more biased because I agree. It's much more biased than it is racism. I'll give you an example. I was in the Vegas airport. This guy's walking in front of me. His pants are. Are, like, sagging down. And you could see his underwear. What was really interesting was it was, like, this really interesting floral print, and his socks matched his underwear. And I had a beer or two, so I messed with the guy I was walking by. I said, oh, man. I said, dang, them underwear, nice. They look good with the. And he turned around, and he was like, who you talking to? Like, I mean, going off. And then a TSA agent comes up and is like, what's the matter? And he said, dang, he's talking about my. And I was. This is me in civilian clothes. He said, he's talking about my underwear nowhere. And the agent. The TSA agent says, well, they do match your socks. And the guy gets pissed off and walks away. Now, you can picture this situation happening right now. When you picture the situation happening, did you think it was a black guy?

[Theo]

I don't know. At first, when you said pants sagging, I did.

[Christopher Curtis]

There you go.

[Theo]

But then when you said matching with the. And black people like to match. So I thought that as well. Floral print. Then I started to think maybe it was, like, a white guy from maybe Milwaukee or something, or Toledo or something, trying to celebrate.

[Christopher Curtis]

But the point in the story. And it was a black dude. But the point in the story is that we have biases to behavior. It wasn't because of the person's skin color. And then what happens is, if we create a squad of police that says just because you're black, that means you're gonna respond to black people. What if that doesn't. It doesn't necessarily. What if you don't.

[Theo]

Oh, I don't think it'll work. I'm just trying to think, how do you get the racial issues out of it? Because, yeah, at a certain point, you do get to, like. I don't know. I don't see as much racism. Like, I grew up in the South. You know, when you'd hear some people's dad, they were just sit there and just say the N word or. And call people or whatever, and just, like, they would say a lot of racist jokes. That was it. You know, that was a Lot of what you'd hear, but I don't even hear that anymore, dude. Like, I'm not saying it doesn't exist.

[Christopher Curtis]

Because people are scared to say it. It's because they're scared they're gonna be true.

[Theo]

But I think people. I think more people now, I don't think that there's more racism than there used to be. I think sometimes there is a fear of some black cultures in areas because I think people probably want to be safe and they fear that some of those areas don't have a lot of safety. But I don't know that that's true. And I also don't know it kind of. That. That kind of bums me out sometimes because it's like, well, I would like to go support probably more like black owned businesses and see them in certain areas probably. But I think there's sometimes where I'm just probably afraid. It's like, I don't want to risk my safety today to do that in.

[Christopher Curtis]

A predominantly black neighborhood.

[Theo]

Right?

[Christopher Curtis]

Yes.

[Theo]

And that maybe. And that may sound racist. Saying that doesn't sound right.

[Christopher Curtis]

Well, I don't know why you. Why would that sound racist? Yeah, why would that sound right? Racist. Okay, name me three major cities where you think there's a lot of crime. Three, three major cities.

[Theo]

Oh, yeah. Memphis.

[Christopher Curtis]

Okay.

[Theo]

New Orleans, probably Los Angeles.

[Christopher Curtis]

Okay.

[Theo]

Cities have more crime.

[Christopher Curtis]

Yes, they do have more crime. Okay, how about. What about Chicago?

[Theo]

Chicago?

[Christopher Curtis]

Chicago. Now when you think about that crime, do you think of it as black crime?

[Theo]

I think maybe in some areas. So you probably do because you hear a lot about Chicago black crime. You hear that term a lot.

[Christopher Curtis]

I'll show you some. Something. Can you pull up heyjackass.com? have you heard of this? Heyjackass.com this is a guy who tracks every single shooting that occurs in Chicago by the minute where it occurs by race and time.

[Theo]

So how would he do it?

[Christopher Curtis]

I was gonna.

[Theo]

He's like the Santa of bullets or whatever. How does he get it all done?

[Christopher Curtis]

Santa of bullets or like, how's he.

[Theo]

Doing it all in one? Hold on.

[Christopher Curtis]

Before you look, before you look, before you look, you look. How many people do you think have been shot? Just shot.

[Theo]

Shot in Chicago? I'm going to get this right. I bet. I would say 41 people.

[Christopher Curtis]

41 people shot in Chicago until March, right?

[Theo]

Deceased or just shot?

[Christopher Curtis]

Just shot.

[Theo]

Oh, just shot. I would say 71.

[Christopher Curtis]

71. All right, take a look.

[Theo]

This is cool. Oh, total shot. 87.

[Christopher Curtis]

So for. For year. Total. Look at year.

[Theo]

Total year to date. 80, 330 total shots.

[Christopher Curtis]

So that means 330 people have been shot and we're not even. How does, how does a mayor have a job if that many people get shot? Now, look at it by race.

[Theo]

75% black, 18.8% Hispanic, 6.4% white or other. So it's. So there's more shootings between, with blacks and Hispanics than whites or of the three black leads, 75%.

[Christopher Curtis]

And this is only Chicago.

[Theo]

But do you. So why do you think this is? Right? Because you've seen, you've been on the streets. I mean, this was Las Vegas, which probably has more of a Latino population as well. Huh?

[Christopher Curtis]

It does.

[Theo]

Why do you think this is? Is it just a financial thing? Is it a culture thing? Is it because you start to think that. So, like, the weird thing about crime is it starts to become part of a culture.

[Christopher Curtis]

So you're saying a lot of very, very interesting things. And I'll speak to the first one first. Why do I think it is? I think it's because. Okay, let me speak to the specific question. Why is it that it happens in black culture?

[Theo]

Yeah, I mean, I think about. It's like, yeah, it start. Well, it starts to seem like, well, that's become part of the culture and so it's just too risky. It's like I want to.

[Christopher Curtis]

Okay. I think it's part of the subculture.

[Theo]

Oh, that's a better term.

[Christopher Curtis]

I think it's part of the subculture.

[Theo]

Yeah, that's what I mean. That's a better term. Yeah. Sometimes I don't know the words. It's part of the subculture.

[Christopher Curtis]

It's part of the subculture. And so I'll tell you why it happens is because not enough people call it out. It's okay for rappers to come and be in places and celebrate it when, when rap culture has become so openly violent, not only towards each other in gangs, gang versus gang, but towards women. And that is not called out. That's where people who have a voice need to stand up and say, no, young man, that's not appropriate. That doesn't work. When I spoke to you in the beginning, I said, I cannot overstate the importance of my father being in my life. But for that fact, fact, I was able to reach the degree of just basic, you know, and I'm not going to say success. I'm content with what I have. But for me, having both of my parents in my life for such a significant time, a lot of these kids don't. A lot of Them do not. And the fact that that's not called out and that, you know, and I don't want to turn this into a political conversation, but I have very strong feelings about the fact that there's so many people in a certain group. Group that don't say that is not acceptable behavior. We. We're not going to condone that. You must act and behave differently, otherwise we can't hang here.

[Theo]

Yeah.

[Christopher Curtis]

And until that happens, that's going to just be a continuous cycle.

[Theo]

Yeah. The media, I mean, you couldn't say that there's a black crime problem. You know, it's like the media is very.

[Christopher Curtis]

There is a black prime crime problem.

[Theo]

There is, but you can't. Yeah. The media seems like the. They never would say that, you know, in the media is kind of what people absorb, you know. But I think now you're able to have people who have come out of black culture and are. I think there's. I think there are good leaders out there who are saying it, you know, I think that hopefully it's going to change too, you know, subculture. Because the shitty part is it's like, yeah, I. I had a friend and she had the. She had like a hat store and she wanted me to come by and I was like, I say it's just. That's too. I don't want to be in that area. I don't want to be in there.

[Christopher Curtis]

Don't blame me.

[Theo]

But to be like, I don't want to shot, you know, it just kind of sucks, you know, like. Like that kind of sucks.

[Christopher Curtis]

Self preservation is a thing, right?

[Theo]

That's the first thing and it's the best thing. It's like, I'm not gonna risk my life to get a fitted, you know.

[Christopher Curtis]

Yeah.

[Theo]

But at the same time it would be nice, you know, it's like. And that's not everywhere and that's. But it's like, yeah, that kind of sucks, dude. You wish that would go away because it sucks. And it makes sitting city's bad, man. Like New Orleans has a lot of that murder over there. A lot of black on black murder. And it makes you not want to be around certain. Like it makes you just not be able to relax and enjoy yourself at.

[Christopher Curtis]

300 and some people have been shot and there's a mayor who still has a job.

[Theo]

So being an officer and being a sergeant, what, what effect can the mayor really have on the crime in an area?

[Christopher Curtis]

So the mayor. So we, we didn't have a unique situation last Vegas where we didn't Report to the mayor. Our sheriff was an elected official, so the police in Las Vegas didn't have to worry about politics with the mayor. The sheriff was almost every single time a police officer before. And in fact, the former sheriff who was the governor now was one of my sergeants. He understood policing, so the top ranking law enforcement person understood policing. And I think that that became a very effective model where you don't have to report to a mayor. That meant mayor is dealing with politics and the police chief has to report to that mayor. So how do we affect this situation happen? It's not the police that are gonna fix. I mean, in immediate. They can put a band aid on it and put cops on dots and corners and do stuff like that. But we have to say fathers have to be in households, they have to raise their kids. I can tell you in the beginning when we started speaking, I said if I was. One of the other things I said that affected me is the times that I didn't spend with my children when I could have where I was either working or being selfish and doing something on my own. What, whatever. Fathers have to be involved in those lives. Otherwise those young men are going to continue to do the same exact thing in New Orleans, in Memphis, in Chicago, every one of those cities. We should be screaming at the top of our lungs when we see that 300 something people were shot in one city. And that's okay. How is that okay? It's not. But then you'll see people protesting about this or protesting about that and claim to really care about humanity. But before we're done with this podcast, there is going to be at least two or three and maybe 10 people that are going to shot across all these different cities. But you know what? We don't. You know, there's a saying that says all men are hypocrites. Most deny it. I myself admit it, and I do. I admit I'm a hypocrite. My life is good, Theo. If I really, really cared, if I really, really cared, and this is an honest submission, then maybe I would, as a retiree, with all the time I have, have maybe find one of these Chicago kids and spend time with them and do something. And maybe at some point in my life I will. But I think that we have to call out our own hypocrisy in life and say that we as Americans love our lives the way they are. These people protest in all these places. They getting a latte at Starbucks right afterwards, getting on TikTok and sending out videos and claiming that they're revolutionaries. They're not revolutionaries. There are no real revolutionaries right now.

[Theo]

And thanks for sharing, dude. I know that, you know, I appreciate you sharing.

[Christopher Curtis]

Forgive me for preaching, man.

[Theo]

Now I don't know if we sound preachy, you know, I, I think it's okay, you know, like. Like two of my black friends got killed in drive by shootings in New Orleans like in the past eight years and they didn't catch the guys that did it. Actually, one of the guys, they did. One of them, they did catch the guy that did it, but just like it was like just in the city just shooting, you know, know. And it starts to get sad. It starts to get like, I don't know, like people ask me now what should I do when I'm in New Orleans. And I, you know, I say, you know, these are places to go, but don't go in these areas. You know, it's kind of sucks. It's like. But what I was thinking was we had a guy name Richard Reeves on and he said, well, one of the problems these days is there's not a lot of young male role models. Yes, there's not a lot of young male role models. And he said a lot of men used to be teachers. I don't have a lot of male teachers anymore. He said a lot of men were Boy scouting, Cub Scout leaders, troop leaders. There was more, I guess more young men used to be involved in the church. Right. So you had. And obviously some of this got haywire and some of those people got molested or whatever. But outside of that there's just not a lot of, a lot of male role models. And so it's like, how do we start to become male role models in our community? Right.

[Christopher Curtis]

Did you, you, did you mean just male role models or did you mean black male role models?

[Theo]

I just meant male, I think male role models. His, his work is just looking at. It's the. The founding president of the American Institute for Boys and Men. He's the author of several books including A Boys and Men why the Modern Male is Struggling, why It Matters and what to do about it. His was just saying that, yeah, it used to be like, so to become, if you have spare time to become a baseball coach, to do the Big Brother program, if you can commit the time to it, like. Cuz it takes, takes like a lot of real time to do those things. And it really kind of just put me on notice, like. Yeah, how do I create something that's. Or just give back to like, you know, since I don't have any children yet. How do you be a part of that, you know? Because I think some of our men too. This is something that I believe has happened is our men are still being really young. It's like, we don't have to grow up.

[Christopher Curtis]

It's true. It's very true.

[Theo]

And look, I'm. I'm still trying to not be grown up, but I gotta grow up, dude. Because suppose if they're coming after me or whatever, you know, who's coming after? Nobody is, but my mom's like, what are we doing? You know? Like, are we getting. Are you gonna get a family or what's gonna go on?

[Christopher Curtis]

Do you want a family?

[Theo]

I think so, dude. Because I think I would miss out on it, you know, I'd like to have a son, be a good dad, make my wife happy or whatever until she gets all.

[Christopher Curtis]

What? Stop. What's stopping you, huh? What's stopping you?

[Theo]

Dude? I haven't even met my wife yet, first of all, and I'm gonna be. I got some to tell her when I do meet her, I'll tell you.

[Christopher Curtis]

Do you pray for her?

[Theo]

Huh?

[Christopher Curtis]

Do you pray?

[Theo]

Yeah, I do pray about it.

[Christopher Curtis]

Do you pray for her specifically?

[Theo]

No, I haven't prayed for her specifically, but I do pray. It's a good point.

[Christopher Curtis]

I guess she's alive. So if she's alive, maybe a good prayer would be, you know what? Because just think she's doing something right this second. Just think if you started to fervently pray for that specific person, you'd be building her before she even gets to you, bro.

[Theo]

Wow. Yeah. It's like creating when you get to make your own person on. On NBA 2K or whatever.

[Christopher Curtis]

You know what I'm talking about the spiritual side, though.

[Theo]

Yeah, yeah, totally.

[Christopher Curtis]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I got you. Yeah, I got you.

[Theo]

But yeah, I made a list of like, you know, things I would like, but then it's like, I don't want to get too locked in, but I. That's a good call, man.

[Christopher Curtis]

Yeah.

[Theo]

And just pray that God, you know, I have been praying that God gives me the. Just the ability to lean more into becoming who I need to be, to be in that situation, you know?

[Christopher Curtis]

May I ask you a semi personal question?

[Theo]

Yeah.

[Christopher Curtis]

Is the reason why maybe holding you back a little bit, the fact that you still, like David dating multiple women or like being. You don't want to go into lockdown, you kind of really want to experience more?

[Theo]

Well, I think, you know, I've thought about that. I, like, I don't know, it's been hard with work. It's like work is my biggest relationship. I mean, when I have a free moment, I'm working, I just, I like it, you know, where I'm planning or I'm thinking, what could I do? And not even just work, but like, how could I start to do, like, work that is more giving back to the community? Like, you know, but you start to think of like, okay, well, what, like, what can I create now that could really be part of something cool or help people? And I think we all think like that. But. But yeah. So just any facet of like, what can I create while I'm still have some creativity in me, you know? And then as far as dating, like, I try to put myself out there, you know, I'm not on the apps, but I'll meet girls, go on dates. You know, I'm pretty brave to be like, oh, let's meet up for a coffee or let's grab a dinner or something like that. That I feel like I'm kind of tired of running around, to be honest. I think it's kind of leaves out of your system a little bit. It does, yeah. So that's kind of where I feel like I'm at.

[Christopher Curtis]

Cool.

[Theo]

And then it's like you get into an age range where you're like, okay, well, you know, it's kind of tough sometimes. Some people have children, so. But then you goes. But once you realize that, you're like, okay, well, I never thought about it if I would date somebody with children, you know, so then you start to think about the that and learn different little things and stuff.

[Christopher Curtis]

With sleeping in the same bed with a person, does that bother you?

[Theo]

Yeah, that bothers me. A lot of times I don't like it that much, but so maybe that's.

[Christopher Curtis]

Something that you could find in common with a person. And maybe your intimacy comes together at a certain space and you still have enough space to be apart from each other. And if they have if on the at the jump, if they're cool with that, maybe that's something that you can start off from that point. Because some people don't like to sleep together. You heard her. Sleep divorce. Divorce. You never heard of sleep divorce?

[Theo]

No, but I would love if my wife had her own room.

[Christopher Curtis]

Yeah. Sleep divorce is where people don't sleep in the same bed, but they maintain an intimate relationship and then their relationships actually flourish. And I don't like to call it sleep divorce. I like to call it like solitary intimacy, like where you're cool Being by yourself and you're cool. Being by yourself when we come together, whenever. Just some stuff to throw.

[Theo]

No, I think it's neat. I think there's stuff like that relationships are kind of evolving and stuff too. I think people are figuring out kind of what works for them. I think sometimes I've been afraid to maybe even say what I feel like. If I was like, hey, I'd love it if my. If I could have a separate bedroom than my wife, you know, and if we wanted, you know, like, then we could have our own rooms.

[Christopher Curtis]

I think that that's the most awesome.

[Theo]

Thing possible, and that would be fine. Yeah. So. But I think for. For years you get caught in this idea, like, oh, that's going to be crazy to say to somebody, you know, but then I think as time goes on, you're like, oh, nothing's really that crazy. You just have to say it and see if somebody else is okay with it. You know, you've talked a lot about, like, policing and, like, how to police. That seems like, to be something that you care about.

[Christopher Curtis]

Yes.

[Theo]

Has policing changed a lot over the years? Do you feel like.

[Christopher Curtis]

Yes, because of, you know, technology and the advent of cameras and everyone, you know, when I came on the police department, people defaulted to the police being right now. People default a lot of times to the police. Police having questions about the police behavior. And it's fair because a lot of things have occurred that would make people question that. So it's changed in the sense that people always have the cameras out. Obviously, police now all have body cams. So things are documented and memorialized in a digital format that we didn't necessarily have before. And I think it's essential when a person can take away a person's freedom or take away a person's life, that it's documented. I got a ticket. I got a ticket. First ticket in my life. I got a. In July.

[Theo]

Oh, really?

[Christopher Curtis]

It was the trippiest story, and it made me realize what people have to go through. And so check this out. So in Florida, I have a house in Florida. And I was riding my E bike on the beach, just pedaling. There was a plastic cup. I pick up the plastic cup and I ride my E bike over to throw it away. And I turn around and I use my throttle to go back. All of a sudden, this buggy with lights and siren comes screeching up on me on the beach. And this cop jumps out. First thing he says to me is, I need you to get off the bike and I need to see Your license. Those are his words as soon as he stops me. And I don't know if he was intimidated by me or what. And I was like, oh, you're not gonna get any problems out of me. I said, listen. I said, I'm a retired cop. I'm cool. I'm not gonna do anything to you.

[Theo]

Oh, there you guys are right there.

[Christopher Curtis]

That's the cop.

[Theo]

Is that Sean Kingston?

[Christopher Curtis]

He does look like Sean. An older version of Sean Kingston.

[Theo]

Yeah.

[Christopher Curtis]

I mean, he was sweating. I mean, he really. I mean, he was. Looked like. I just can't even explain how stressed out he was over me riding my electric bike on the beach. And he wrote me a ticket. And so I was like, you know what? I'm gonna ride this whole thing out, because I want to see what it feels like from the side of. Cause I gave out a lot of tickets. I want to see what. I went to court and everything. I had to go before a judge. There were people in there for, like, felonies and everything else. And I went through the whole process and paid my take. And it was disappointing to me that at this day and age that there are still police that don't. That the first thing they say to you out of their mouth is, get off the bike. I need to see your license. It goes back to what I was saying to you before about when I just, you know, told you how I interact. I prefer a person to interact.

[Theo]

Yeah.

[Christopher Curtis]

Why not do that?

[Theo]

Well, I think. But now in some instances, things are manic and the situation is escalating already. Right. Like, sometimes it's already. Things are insane. Like if a guy's shooting or something. Sure.

[Christopher Curtis]

I mean, you're gonna be. Yeah, of course.

[Theo]

I'm saying, just walking up person to person. What is the daily interaction like?

[Christopher Curtis]

Yeah, every single interaction from the police should be something that should be friendly. And almost as I'm the servant, because we are. We're supposed to be serving. Even if a person makes a mistake. Come on, bro.

[Theo]

Oh, I. Look, I. I love that idea. I love, love the idea that that's what keeps it. What keeps that from happening then. Because then you would almost want to be able to check each day, okay, how is this officer doing today? Are they going to be able to manage to be out there in this field or do. Are they getting paid enough to be able to take care of themselves, to get massages or ice packs, Things that people need, though, that to de. Stress them? Dude, I go get a massage, It'll change the way.

[Christopher Curtis]

I agree.

[Theo]

I talk to my mother on the phone. Phone. It's like, I love that concept, you know, but it's like, yeah, it seems like we would be able to take care of these people more who are the. Really the sieves of our society that are like, drain. You know, they're the capture, they're the catch of the drain. You know, I like that analogy.

[Christopher Curtis]

You know, to me, I think it would actually make policing less stressful if the police interaction from the police side is that entree into being so kind and polite from the very beginning of the stop. Because you're not going to get into that many arguments with people, because most people like, dag on it. I've written tickets to people that are like, thank you. You know, because. And I'm not saying that I was great at doing. There were a lot of cops who know how to talk and act that way. And it's usually when you get older, it's just that there's. If you look. If, you know, if everything looks like a nail. Well, if you have a hammer, everything looks like a nail or whatever. If the hammer is your only tool, then everything looks like a nail. And that's the only way that you deal with things, is hammering it in as opposed to trying other methods. Make that tool belt bigger.

[Theo]

Yeah, I mean, I've learned that in my own life, man. I've really showed up with a hammer a lot of times. Times I'm trying to have less of it, and it's been getting better, oddly. I just find little moments where I'm like, I've tried that so many times. Waiting or wait. Waiting for somebody to act a certain way towards me instead of just acting that way. Yes, that's a fucking. I've spent a lot of my life waiting. Oh, I'm. I'm just. I'm just gonna wait for you to act this way towards me because I deserve that. That's the way it's supposed to be or something. And not in like a way of, like, praise or anything like that, but just even something simple like a relationship, work relationship, or even with family. I'm gonna wait, you know, instead of like. I'm gonna wait for you to hold my hand instead of me just holding your hand type. You know that.

[Christopher Curtis]

And that's deep, man. You know, the way that you adjust, evolve and treat people. And I learned this very interesting story when I first heard on Police Department and it's race incident here. I was coming on Graveyard. This is downtown. There's a foot pursuit, swing shift. Gets the guy in Custody. The sergeant, I was an officer at the time. The sergeant calls me over and asks me to transport the guy. I get there, and the guy's leaking, and a black dude, he's pissed. Two officers that took him into custody, white. One of the officers was a guy who was a senior field training officer. And he was about to go to swat. And I'm this rookie, rookie. I come over and the black dude, his eye is lit, leaking. And they call medical. And medical comes while I'm sitting there. And the sergeant says, hey, you take them. Because, you know, he figured he, the guy would feel more comfortable with me because the guy was saying, oh, they, they just roughed me up. So I get the guy. I. So this is the important part. The FTO has his handcuffs on the suspect. What you're supposed to do is conduct a pat down, go through the whole process, put your handcuffs on the person, and then transfer them the car. I didn't want to offend the FTO by making it seem like I didn't trust his pat down. So I put my cuffs on the guy. I take the guy, and I'm getting ready to put him in my car. And the ambulance lady says, he can't go straight to jail. You got to take him over to umc, which is the hospital, because they got to sew that up. Take him over to umc. We go there, the doctor says I got to uncuff his hand, cuff him to the gurney. And I'm talking to this dude and I'm just like, vibing with him. And like, I just, I felt kind of bad for him, right? Like, he just was like, you know, you look at a person that just dejected, like their life sucked. And he was being booked for running. You know, they were trying to stop him. He was running, right?

[Theo]

Yeah.

[Christopher Curtis]

And he's, he's leaking. He's like, just. It was just like his life was sucked. So we get down to the hospital, they sew him up. I recuff him, bring him to the, to the jail. Ccdc, the detention center, County Detention Center. I get him inside. Before we, before we get the guy said he was John Doe at that point. So if the person doesn't tell us their name, we book him as John Doe.

[Theo]

Oh, yeah.

[Christopher Curtis]

The dude says to me, he goes, you know what, man? You've been cool to me. I'm going to tell you my name. He tells me his name. I put it into the computer. My computer starts going crazy. All this information pops up. And his warrant pops up. Dispatcher says, Ask me if I'm clear for the information and says, he's wanted by the FBI. Murder by burn. Burning. I get him down to. To the jail.

[Theo]

Yes, Chef. That's crazy.

[Christopher Curtis]

The CO is one of my boys and he goes screaming. He's like, chris, what the. After he's yelling, he comes back, this big, huge knife the guy had on him the whole time. Big, big knife.

[Theo]

You didn't check him?

[Christopher Curtis]

I didn't check him because I didn't want to offend the fto. And the dude says to me as he walks by when they brought him out because he got booked an additional charge, he says. He said, you know, if you weren't kind to me the way that you were, I could have done you in the hospital and I would have done you. Me being kind and polite to that guy saved my life from that stupid rookie mistake that I made.

[Theo]

Yeah, I'm sure. Like. Yeah. I mean, I. I don't know what it's like. I don't know what it's like. How do you make sure that an officer, when they leave out for the day, each day, is in the best state that they can be in to be these liaisons between right and wrong in the world, you know? And that's what it's like. How best can we take care of these people? These. You know, I feel like if we can afford to give money to other places, we should give it poured into these people. It should be expensive, it should be a well paid job. And I'm not saying that it isn't, but it should be. You know, I feel like these are the. A lot of other shit's easy, dude.

[Christopher Curtis]

You shouldn't also incentivize officers with more than 10 years to go back to patrol. One of the challenges that happens is you get cops, they want to go through the ranks, they get work, Go work in specialized units and then never go back to patrol. And then patrol.

[Theo]

Oh, so they get disconnected.

[Christopher Curtis]

They get disconnected from patrol. And then you have young guys teaching young guys, and it's usually the older wisdom that is what helps policing. Because I remember I was in Knucklehead when I was young. I know I made a lot of mistakes.

[Theo]

Oh, yeah. Oh, God. Yeah, dude. So how do you get it to become a hostage negotiator? Because that's one. What you're.

[Christopher Curtis]

You became so. Because. So. Right. So that's a special specialized unit, specialized training. You can keep your primary responsibility because what happens is you end up being on call, and that sucked because you would be in the middle of something, and you'd get a call out.

[Theo]

And you have to go. And you have to go because there's not many of you.

[Christopher Curtis]

No. And, you know, you need the team to assemble. On rare occasions, you can call out. So they'll put out an opening. And in every department is different, but they'll put out an. You know, there's an open opening, and then you interview for it. And then you. How well you do in the interview, you get selected. And I was the young. At the time, I was the youngest ever to be selected on the team. And that was a phenomenal experience. And so once you're on the team, you get your phones, but then you had pagers too, and you get your gear, your jacket and everything, and you just start responding to calls. You know, obviously after training, you start responding to call. And if anything on the department weighs on you, it's talking to a person for a significant amount of time or listening to a person talk to for a significant amount of time, being part of the team. And then the person does themselves. Because hostage negotiation isn't really a good term for it. It's more of a crisis negotiator. Because most of the time that we do it, it would be from a person in crisis, a person at once.

[Theo]

To 405, as we said earlier, who's considering unaliving themselves. Yeah, yeah. Take me through a scenario like that.

[Christopher Curtis]

Okay, so an actual situation or. Okay, so this is. This one is. Was deep. And I wasn't the primary on this one. And this is a story that resonates and they even tell us in the class now a guy who just. Life was horrific. He had a terminal illness. He had a. And I wasn't. When I was younger, I didn't realize how many people have back issues and their back pain is just suffering and they don't want to live anymore. And so I think what he had was cancer. He had a back issue that was just causing him severe, severe pain. And his wife left him because it was a whole bunch of issues and he had financial issues for all these things that he was going through. So what happens is you assemble a team. There's a primary, there's a secondary. The primary is a person that talks to the person. And they're on the phone. Their sole focus is to talk to the person.

[Theo]

Talk to the person that's in crisis.

[Christopher Curtis]

That's in crisis.

[Theo]

Okay.

[Christopher Curtis]

The secondary is the person that is monitoring the primary and getting information from the rest of the team. And the team can vary, but two Positions that are really important is the intel liaison, which is the person that tells the background of the person. The person's this age, they were married this amount of time, all the intel that you can possibly get on the person, right? Then you have the tactical liaison person, because you have a SWAT team that's assembled as well, because you have to potentially breach or go inside of the residence. So tactically, you have to know, have this place been evacuated? Have you. Is it does. Are there weapons inside? Has this person done this before? So the TAC and the intel person feed this information to the secondary. The secondary can write notes and feed it. Then you have a scribe who scribes all this information. So the case that I was talking to you about was this person who had gone through this thing. He was going through this thing, and it was a newer negotiator that was on as the primary. And after all this time of talking to this guy and getting to know him, the guy says, I know exactly what you're doing, and you really suck at it. And then shot himself in the head. He said, you really suck at it. That was the last thing that he said.

[Theo]

It would kind of suck, though, if that you're considering unaliving yourself himself. You get on with the negotiator, and he's just horrible at it. You're like, oh, God. Like, yeah, dude, that's crazy. That's a mic drop, bro.

[Christopher Curtis]

Yeah, it is. And that's. That person had to live with that. You know that they're. That's their. Their record on the department is that.

[Theo]

Were they really good at it, though, and the person just didn't know and that. Because anybody could say that that could be an move.

[Christopher Curtis]

It can be. And part of it was that because. Because, I mean, how is it and what is good, right? How is it and what is good? Because, I mean, I actually brought a scenario that I was going to work through with you if you wanted to try to be a negotiator. So basically, this is pretty cool, man, because I put this together, which is a composite of a few different negotiator things. And I'm going to tell you, you're going to be the primary.

[Theo]

Okay?

[Christopher Curtis]

And so here's the situation. I can read it or you can read it on what the situation. And actually, I'll read it to you like, as if you just showed up at the scene that you just rolled up.

[Theo]

All right? Okay, great.

[Christopher Curtis]

All right, Theo, you're gonna be the primary on this one. Okay?

[Theo]

You got it.

[Christopher Curtis]

The subject's Name is Michael Brady. He goes by Mike. The background intel we have is he's a middle school biology teacher for the last 14 years. He's a youth pastor at a local Christian church for the last seven years. He's 47 years old and he's a white male. He's been married for 18 years. His wife's name is Carol Brady. She's 46 years old. They have one son. His name is Bobby Brady. He's nine years old. Today. Michael was put on administrative leave for school when sexual assault detectives came to the school. In an anonymous tip, he allegedly impregnated a 14 year old student. Her name is Pamela Phillips. Mike Brady is currently barricaded inside the residence. We got the call because Mike came home, told his wife to get out of the house as she entered. And as he entered an upstairs bedroom and shut the door, he appeared to be holding a firearm. He is currently barricaded inside the residence. Your personal observation, Theo, is that as you pulled up to the scene, you see a young boy in a baseball uniform talking to detectives and he's crying hysterically. Presumably this is the son, Bobby. Okay, Tactical intel. There are two known firearms. There's a shotgun inside,45 caliber automatic pistol. SWAT has arrived and they set up the inner perimeter. Neighboring houses have been evacuated. You can ask me three questions and then I'm going to begin as though I'm Mike and you're going to talk to me.

[Theo]

Okay, I asked you three questions.

[Christopher Curtis]

You can ask me three questions to get some information to get started about the case. Yep.

[Theo]

Okay. Is it based on the Brady Bunch at all?

[Christopher Curtis]

A little bit. I used that because I knew I'd remember those names.

[Theo]

Oh, very fair. Okay. Damn. That's one of my questions. Let me think.

[Christopher Curtis]

That one. You can throw us out. You can ask me three questions that pertain to. Because you're going to go online and when you go online, it's going to be pretty intense.

[Theo]

Okay. So I'm going to go online, meet you.

[Christopher Curtis]

You're going to be talking to me, and I'm Mike Brady.

[Theo]

Okay.

[Christopher Curtis]

You're the primary.

[Theo]

Has Mike ever committed any priors?

[Christopher Curtis]

Prior crimes or with.

[Theo]

With young women, Prior, like, assault charges?

[Christopher Curtis]

Nope. He has. His record is completely clean.

[Theo]

Okay. How tall is he?

[Christopher Curtis]

Interesting question. He's six foot even.

[Theo]

Okay. And is he on any medication?

[Christopher Curtis]

Very good question. He is. He takes a sleeping pill to sleep. He has a sleeping issue.

[Theo]

O. Okay. Sir.

[Christopher Curtis]

Hello?

[Theo]

Hey, Mike.

[Christopher Curtis]

Yeah. Who's this?

[Theo]

This is Theo. Actually, I'm the. I'm working. I'M here today, man. Just.

[Christopher Curtis]

I really screwed up, didn't I, man?

[Theo]

I think it seems like you've had a tough day.

[Christopher Curtis]

I have had a tough day, but I mean, I screwed up this time, didn't I?

[Theo]

I think you're probably gonna have to answer some questions, you know, But I think everything's going to be okay, man.

[Christopher Curtis]

How's it going to be okay? This girl, like, this girl's pregnant, man. I mean, how am I going to face anyone after this?

[Theo]

Well, I think you're going to have to. Her dad's going to be pissed. Yeah. I mean, yeah, people are going to be upset.

[Christopher Curtis]

I'm not thinking about her dad. I'm thinking about my family.

[Theo]

Okay. People are going to. Yeah, it's going to be. Yeah, man, it sucks.

[Christopher Curtis]

Okay.

[Theo]

It does suck. It sucks. But here we are.

[Christopher Curtis]

Yeah. I mean, how am I going to face my son?

[Theo]

Your son's pretty upset right now.

[Christopher Curtis]

Yeah, he is. Of course he is. I knocked up a 14 year old girl. I'm a youth pastor in a church. I teach at a school. My life is over. Give me a good reason why I shouldn't just put this thing to my head and blow my brains out.

[Theo]

Because your son's life is still around and that's not what he needs right now.

[Christopher Curtis]

Probably right about that, but you know, how can I face him, man?

[Theo]

Man. I think you call him first.

[Christopher Curtis]

Call him and say what? What would you say in that situation?

[Theo]

I don't know. I don't know. I would say. I would tell him the truth. I would say I messed up.

[Christopher Curtis]

And you think that's the answer? To tell him I messed up? I know I messed up.

[Theo]

I think it's part of it. I know. You know you did. But he probably doesn't know what's going on. Owen.

[Christopher Curtis]

He doesn't. Is he out there right now?

[Theo]

Yeah. You want me to put him on?

[Christopher Curtis]

Would you?

[Theo]

Yeah.

[Christopher Curtis]

Okay. How do you feel? How do you think you did? Was that intense?

[Theo]

It is intense.

[Christopher Curtis]

It is intense.

[Theo]

It's intense. Cuz you're like is now if. Even if you get to that part, is he just going to tell the son goodbye?

[Christopher Curtis]

Exactly. See you, Theo. You are super wise, brother. That's exactly why we wouldn't put the son on the phone. Because that's exactly what he would likely do. He would try. He would likely. And so this is why we train. This is why we train. So a couple of other things. Right when we said son, that was a good opportunity for you to do what? Identify his son by Name Bobby. Because isn't Bobby different than saying son? Yeah, it's different, right?

[Theo]

Yeah.

[Christopher Curtis]

My wife. That was opportunity. And I knew that, you know, look, instructional.

[Theo]

Use it instructional. It's very interesting.

[Christopher Curtis]

But that's when you say Carol, right? Yeah, Carol. Yeah. And. But what I like is that you humanize the situation, right? Like you, you. That's the thing again. It's where you get the Theo, where like, he's talking to a person that he could potentially relate to. And. And you. You create that kind of that air about the. The situation where you would get other costs and be just completely freaked out or completely militaristic, you know? And. And I like that you kind of humanized the whole situation. And this is obviously super condense.

[Theo]

The fascinating thing to me is. Yeah. When you realize the gravitas of this, like, you think it's easy, and then even this is a placebo, even in that you're like, I don't have the answer right now. And if I don't get this right, what happens? And then I'm starting to learn as I think about it too. I'm like, well, it's not about you anymore. It's about your son. And then that kind of makes me sad. Then it's like, now suddenly I feel more feelings because I'm like, well, shit, now I'm doing this really for the sun. And I didn't even realize that until that moment, you know, Even though, like, you could be trained for that. It's like, until that's said and it's a real moment and you can picture the sun and you, God, dude. It's like. It's just scary. And then at some points you might agree that the guy. It might be best if he lets. God just. I don't know. Is that crazy to say that? I don't know. I don't think it is crazy. I think. Think it's normal.

[Christopher Curtis]

There are so. There are a lot of people who, if not from. Obviously from. Not from official police, but there are people even in their own mind would say, I wouldn't want to live if that was the case. Right, Right. So I. So I'll tell you a situation that I dealt with and I sent a. Some audio for it. It was a guy named Michael Chevalier. This was a big case in Vegas. So here's what happened. So the call comes out. I'm a sergeant at the time, right. Swinging shift. So it's still light outside. The call comes out that a lady is talking on the phone to her friend. And the Friend hears the struggle and then all of a sudden the line goes dead. She calls 911. And obviously we get dispatched and sergeants, when we hear certain calls, we're like, that's something I should roll to. We don't have to, but that's a call I should roll to. I happen to be close enough to where the two office. So it's one of those apartment communities where it's one floor, two floor floors, and then there's top floor and then there's an apartment all the way down here. So the officers I see, I pull in the parking lot and I see my officers walking to the door. Then all of a sudden I see the door open and the officers pull out their gun and fall back, like to try to get away from whatever was going on at the door. And I hear them on the radio. 413, subject has a 413. So he, the subject came to the door with his arm around the female and the firearm to the female email. I have my car in the parking lot and then obviously Code red. That means only emergency traffic. All the officers come, we get to the. We get into the front of my car and I have a dry race and I'm on the hood of my car pointing out where I want my officers to go and how we're going to deal with the situation. One of my officers at the time is really sharp guy. He says, hey, Sarge, I got my rifle in case he comes out. Let me go over to this pizzeria right here and I can engage him if he comes out with the. The gun. Great lesson. If one of your subordinates has a great idea, be very quick to listen and learn from them. Because it was a great idea because the second that he gets over there, Chevalier comes out and starts shooting at us. We all go down. My guy engages Chevalier at the door and he hits the door frame and all this wood and everything hits Chevalier and Chevalier goes back inside the house. I'm like, I gotta call in. There was no time, no negotiators had not been around, nothing. And so I said, if I call him, he's not going to be shooting, he's not going to be hurting. So I get in and I start having a conversation with Chevalier and we develop a rapport. Interestingly, I was able to record a segment of this conversation. I'll play this, we'll play the conversation, and then I will tell you the nuances of the conversation that occurred, the aftermath of it, and how deep negotiations can be.

[Theo]

Okay, cool. Yeah, tee that up. There, Trev.

[Christopher Curtis]

I like to keep my word, and I know you do. And I remember that you said that once you get back on the phone with me that you and I can work this out. Can we? If. If we can come to some type of agreement, and I'm a man of.

[Theo]

My word, I think the agreement they will come to would be released as a hostage and perfectly. She will be unharmed. But.

[Christopher Curtis]

I like what you're about talking. Yes, I like what you're talking about. And that peaceful agreement is the route that we got to go now.

[Theo]

Oh, SWAT team is here. Christopher, I want you to tell the squat team to move away from the front of the door. Just tell them. Move them now, would you? Tell them to move them now.

[Christopher Curtis]

Can m. Michael, can I tell you what's happening?

[Theo]

Want to tell them to move away from the door?

[Christopher Curtis]

Okay. Michael, can I tell you something?

[Theo]

Tell them that.

[Christopher Curtis]

All right, listen, give me a second. Yes, Michael, that's absolutely. Come listen to me. Let me just tell you what's going on. Remember before I remember before I explained.

[Theo]

To you what was going on.

[Christopher Curtis]

Remember?

[Theo]

I tell you what, Michael.

[Christopher Curtis]

Michael, remember before I explained to you what was going on.

[Theo]

I tell you what, we're going to call 911.

[Christopher Curtis]

Okay? So let me. Let me give you some background on this, okay? I still get, like, really amped when just listening to that again, because it takes me right back there. So Michael and I had been speaking for a while, and situation seemed like it was pretty much calm. Negotiators were arriving. SWAT team had arrived, and they were setting up in their position. At that point, Michael freaked out when he saw the SWAT team, because you see the SWAT team and their greens and their rifles, and you know that at some point, if you have a hotel, that something's likely going to happen. It's not going to be good for you. Ultimately, the decision was made to go to condition two. Condition two is when my job is to talk Michael in front of a window so they can shoot and kill him. So there is this interesting element to talking to a person that you are talking into their own demise.

[Theo]

Wow.

[Christopher Curtis]

Talking to a dead person to say that ended up not happening. What happened was through electronic means, we were able to find out that Michael was doing things to the female. The decision was made to do an explosive breach into the apartment and then take Michael out because Michael had been raping her. And now I'm condensing this because this is a very long, drawn out process.

[Theo]

Got it. And he kidnapped the woman.

[Christopher Curtis]

Yeah, he did. She had her door open. She was out talking to her friend, and he grabbed her and pulled her inside.

[Theo]

Got it.

[Christopher Curtis]

Pulled her inside. Yeah, ladies just out there talking.

[Theo]

Unreal.

[Christopher Curtis]

So ultimately, after SWAT goes in and kills him, she's laying right there. Talk about PTSD or what a person has to go through. Absolutely horrific. But let me talk about the nuance of language. If you watch what Michael was saying, mind you, the team is listening and watching every single word that a person says. There's one very, very interesting part of his conversation where he says, the hostage. Now, again, we would always want to change that to back to saying the person's name, but I didn't get a chance to do that, and I did at other points in it. But what he says is, she will believe them perfectly. And he stops at perfect. Perfectly, and she will be released unharmed. So why did he stop it perfectly? He stopped it perfectly because he knew that he was doing things that she was not perfect. Our minds and our language are so intimately connected. And when you get to understand. See where he says, release of the.

[Theo]

Hostage, he says, play that again. That part is. Back it up a second or two. Release of the hostage, and perfectly, she will be unharmed.

[Christopher Curtis]

But you see, he stopped and he flipped it because he knew that she wasn't perfect. He knew he was doing horrific things to her. And we listen to these types of things because we have to make a decision. How long do we wait before we go inside? Like, is he just sitting there, or is he actually doing that? Horrific.

[Theo]

Could she lose her life? Yeah. You have to make choices.

[Christopher Curtis]

And in becoming a negotiator, even in your own life, you're very, very careful with your own word choice. And often I'll find myself, when I speak to people, there are certain words that I don't use. I just have excised them from my vocabulary. And it's about positivity is also. Like when I said sleep divorce, I've caught myself because I don't like to attribute divorce to something that could potentially be positive. I almost. I don't almost. I commit myself to utilizing the positive form, form of speech whenever I possibly can. And it's incredibly important. It changes a lot of things, really.

[Theo]

Give me an example of that.

[Christopher Curtis]

So I don't use the word problem. Like, I say challenge, because then you look at things as a problem. Who wants to see a problem? I'd like to see a challenge because if you overcome it, then it's just a challenge. You can almost always. If there's a negative connotation to Something. Even when you go out with your mom, if you think about and listen to the words that you speak, you can almost always a positive way that you could flip it. Back in the day, I. Wow. It really is. It's fun, too, when you think about taking that much.

[Theo]

Yeah, it does seem fun, because then it kind of adds a little bit of a challenge to your own how you're communicating. And the crazy thing is, you know, who hears us the most? Us.

[Christopher Curtis]

Yes. Yes. And it means you care about what comes out of your mouth. You know, back in the day, I wrote a dating book called Mac Tactics.

[Theo]

Really?

[Christopher Curtis]

I did. It was called Mac Tactics the Art the Science of Seduction Meets the Art of hostage negotiation. In 2005, I wrote this book, and it was about utilizing the language. Yeah, there it is. It's about utilizing language in the day.

[Theo]

Ooh.

[Christopher Curtis]

Yeah.

[Theo]

Is it helpful? Yeah. How would a hostile negotiator. What do you tell me if I'm talking to a lady?

[Christopher Curtis]

So it's interesting because it was more about. So Mac. I changed Mac from what most people think Mac is, and I changed it to Method, Action, Confidence, and knowledge. I co wrote it with my boy, Rob Weiser. Rob is, like, really the. I mean, Rob is the NYU dude. Super smart. He's my boy. Like, I. I was the content guy. And so method, action, confidence, knowledge, and all of those were what we call the pillars of power. And conversation was incredibly important as far as method was concerned. And minimal encouragers. So you know what a minimal encourager is. And so minimal encourager and paraphrasing are two things that negotiators learn to master. So a minimal encourager, like, when I'm looking at you, like, how you're, like, minimally, like, shaking your head like that, you're naturally encouraging me to continue on with my speech.

[Theo]

Okay.

[Christopher Curtis]

We have verbal minimal encouragers as well. Like, when a person's speaking, you're like, mm, okay. Yeah, yeah. So when you learn to naturally incorporate those things into your speech, it really encourages a person to open up. And if you're a good listener, you can hear everything that a person wants to say to you. And paraphrasing is when you listen to what a person says, and then you say it back to them in a slightly different format, adding positives if necessary, which really shows them that you're listening.

[Theo]

Listening.

[Christopher Curtis]

And in dating, that's an incredibly effective method of building a bond between two people.

[Theo]

Really?

[Christopher Curtis]

100%.

[Theo]

Let's try it. Okay. So if you. So how do we do it?

[Christopher Curtis]

So here's how we do it. Like, tell me about your. What your day was like yesterday. A small segment of your day.

[Theo]

Yeah, yesterday I went to. Yeah, I went to watch some music and I was pretty tired. Probably stayed up a little later than I should have, but had a pretty good time, you know, so.

[Christopher Curtis]

So when you were going out yesterday, did. Is it tired because you were having fun or was it because you just didn't have enough rest?

[Theo]

Oh, I see what you're doing. So you're saying the same thing I'm.

[Christopher Curtis]

Saying back to you. Kind of like the shows that I'm listening and that I care about what the outcome was. Usually minimal. Encourages. I mean.

[Theo]

Right. Cause then I feel a little bit more okay, this is nice. This is fun. This is worth our time. Time.

[Christopher Curtis]

Yeah. And it gives you time to just kind of build a person's trust in sharing with you. Conversation and listening are two very, very important things. Not to be overbearing in your conversation and listening to the other person and showing that you're listening. Negotiators are very good listeners. So me. And me doing that exercise with you, I had an idea that you were going to be kind of good at it. Most people don't even get. First of all, they don't have the confidence to even try it. I was very pleased that you were willing to. To try, but I had this thing about it because you're like, very, very relatable. I have a thing that. I think that you would be a good negotiator. I think that you have at your core the ability to be a really good negotiator. I thought about this movie where they call you Mr. Relatable, the primary, where like, it was not even really you. It's like a person who was like a younger you that was like a person who was a standup comic. And a guy goes to the show and. And decides he wants the 405 because he's just done with life. But you. He just related with you and that you negotiate him out of doing it. And the police see you doing it. And then you. Your arc is that you realize that in negotiating with people that how much it relates to things that you've been through in your own life.

[Theo]

Do they have. That almost sounds like a movie that I bet somebody would. Not exactly, but I bet, yeah, a negotiator. And they're. And it's. They're really channeling things that are going on in their own lives or what it happens to.

[Christopher Curtis]

To us. It does it 100% happens to us. But most of us don't have the natural relatability that you have. Like, I mean, no, I don't have any need to blow smoke. Right. Like, I really like you, I think you're dope, but I'm just saying. Yeah, I love you, but your relatability level is off the meter with all races of people, with all genders of people. I don't know if you related to yourself as well as you relate to other people, which might be an interesting element for you, that might be even part of the element of Mr. Relatable. The primary. Primary. But there's something there and I think that, you know, you could definitely be a negotiator.

[Theo]

Primary.

[Christopher Curtis]

The primary.

[Theo]

That's a cool name for something.

[Christopher Curtis]

The primary. There you go, man. Imagine that, you know, you talk the guy out, someone gets it on video that you did it, and the police are reaching out to you to handle these high level negotiations and you're trying to make your career work. Could do it, man.

[Theo]

Thanks, man. That's some nice thoughts. And just so, so, so that's a nice thing you can do if you're talking with a woman. Pay attention and show air stuff that they said back to them to create comfortability.

[Christopher Curtis]

Yeah. Because a lot of times as guys, we don't necessarily listen. Like sometimes, no, in the beginning especially.

[Theo]

You'Re just doing your best. It's like you're trying to survive. It's almost like you're treading water. It's like, I know I'm swimming, but I'm really just, you know, trying to stay alive at this moment.

[Christopher Curtis]

And open ended questions, you know, this is an excellent open ended question. And how did that make you feel? That's an excellent question. And be sincere about it. Like this, the stuff that I'm selling is not, I'm not trying to sell it. This is the stuff that I'm sharing that really matters. Matters. Asking up and like, how did that make you feel? Like if the girl that you go on a date with, she's like, oh my goodness, it took me forever to get here. The Uber driver kept looking at me. It looked like my boob was popping up. I get it. But how did that make you feel?

[Theo]

Yeah, how do you feel about it? Yeah, like I'm okay with it actually. Just kind of a tactic because sometimes you need somebody to put you. You get all soiled, you need somebody to put you back in the pot, you know?

[Christopher Curtis]

Yeah.

[Theo]

Like sometimes I'll be frantic, but everything's fine. You're like yeah, everything's fine. It's like, you know, I'll get caught down. You know, I'll get caught. Caught going upstream when I really don't need to. You know, what else was I thinking about? Oh, there's that famous case in Las Vegas of the shooter. Right in the. Yeah, you know, there's a lot of conspiracy theories about that. Was that a real thing?

[Christopher Curtis]

Oh, yeah, it was real. I know some of the cops that enter and one of my cop buddies got. Pulled a guy off the street and drove him to the hospital and dropped him off. I mean, one of my closest cop buddies did that. And I actually got a recording of him telling me about that because I used it in a training class that I had. But that situation, that 100% happened.

[Theo]

Wow.

[Christopher Curtis]

Yeah. That was real. Yeah.

[Theo]

That's unbelievable, huh?

[Christopher Curtis]

Yeah, that was. Wow, man. Just to show you, you know, I wear this thing. It says momento Mori, which means you remember you will die because you don't know when you're going to die. Can happen at any time, man. And that's the messed up thing about cop work, is that it's always at either the forefront of the back of your mind that, you know, you think about it. Like when. You know what's crazy? When the driver picked me up today and black vehicle and it's his, cops think like this. I was like, is this really this guy not setting me up? Right. This is legit. Like, you know, you have this like a paranoia thing that goes around in your mind about, like if a person walks into a restaurant, we always sit with our back to the door. It becomes uncomfortable sometimes. Yeah, we're not with our back to the door, facing the door, so.

[Theo]

But yeah, because I guess you develop. It's not really a paranoia as much as it is a preservation, really.

[Christopher Curtis]

It is self preservation because seeing death on all those levels, it's a trip.

[Theo]

Does doing police work, sergeant work, a negotiation work? Does it wear down your compassion or does it build it over time?

[Christopher Curtis]

Do you think, oh, that's such a good question. For me, in the immediate, you kind of build up this thick skin where you don't like. For me, showing emotion is still a challenge for me in life. I get emotional and you sometimes will see that there'll be tears that come well up in my eye, but I don't want to let them fall down.

[Theo]

Oh, yeah.

[Christopher Curtis]

So it's tough. But to answer your question, I think that while you're doing it, thick skin, as you get older, you become more like that, you know, I really feel what you're going through. You know, I wish that I could, and I don't like to say I wish there's a way that I could help you. My goal is to figure out how I can do that. One of my lieutenants, I think you guys have the audio on this. One of my lieutenants, 405 and there's audio of it. This is horrific. Horrific story.

[Theo]

Las Vegas cop, shot wife and 5 year old son before taking his own, before unaliving himself.

[Christopher Curtis]

Okay. Yes. So this guy was my lieutenant. And you can play the audio if you want. And he tells everything right here. And I'll give you a little background afterwards.

[Theo]

Okay.

[Christopher Curtis]

91 1.

[C]

What's the address of your emergency? Hi. And what's the problem? Tell me exactly what happened. My name is Hans Walters. I work for Las Vegas Metropolitan Police Department. I just shot and killed my son Max and my wife Michelle. And I killed her because she's in such chronic pain from her neck and back and on more medicines and she's not going to survive. And we were both seeing therapists and psychologists in Boulder City. His name is. And I feel terrible for doing it. Okay, and out. Please don't, please don't interrupt me. Please.

[Theo]

Okay.

[C]

I also set the house on fire. And if the fire department comes to my house because there's a fire hydrant right in front of my house, I'm gonna open fire on them. So I have to wait till the house is burning and then I'm gonna shoot myself. Okay.

[Theo]

So, okay.

[C]

I don't, I don't ask me any questions. This is, this is real. This is a joke. The fire alarms in the background ground is because I set the garage and the bedroom on fire. My wife's in the bedroom. I shot her in the head. My son unfortunately is a moving room watching Oswald. And I shot him in the head too. And forgive me for my sins. Please don't call back. Thank you.

[Theo]

Oh my God.

[Christopher Curtis]

So Hands was my lieutenant. And really for a period of time. Yeah, it was him for a period of time. And he was one of the most soft spoken, polite. Every time he would talk to you, he would say please and thank you. Total family man. Wasn't a go out after work drinker type guy. Everything in the time that I knew him was about his wife and his son Max. I remember there was a time that's him right there and that's his wife. She was a cop at one time. And I remember there was, when he was my lieutenant, he would go take time off to go take care of her. And he would put me to take care of the lieutenant paperwork. And he was always just very pleased and thank you. And he was just. I mean, it's so weird for me to be able to say that. One of the most kind, soft spoken people to me and to the other people that he interacted with, which was so wild. So his wife had some significant medical challenges. And when I was younger, as I said before, I didn't understand how suffering from pain can be so debilitating for a person. Now, this is what's really interesting in this situation. Hans walked outside after he shot his wife and his son. And he didn't get shot. The police didn't shoot him. And I believe that he wanted it to be a suicide by cop. And that's the only reason I can muster as to why he would walk outside. But they didn't shoot him. And he went inside, and then he 405'd what's interesting, as I told you, as I listened to the conversation, I listened to the language, what he says is he says, please forgive me. What would a person normally say? Would you just say, please forgive me, or would you say, God forgive me? But in my mind, I feel like potentially, why you, Theo? You're a negotiator. Now, why did he not use the word God?

[Theo]

Because he'd done some things that were bad that what God wouldn't forgive him for.

[Christopher Curtis]

There you go, brother. See, you get this stuff, man. You really get this stuff. And that's why that word did not come out of his mouth. What a horrific situation. But let me tell you something, man. There are some people under those circumstances who don't want anyone else to raise their kids.

[Theo]

Did.

[Christopher Curtis]

Can I speak to why he did that? I don't know. But I can tell you that I do have experience with a person who does something like that. And I sent you. There's no audio of this, but I did send a file of this case. Timothy Blackburn. I was a negotiator on the team at this time, and my team got the call out for Blackburn. I did not negotiate on an FBI agent who was connected with Blackburn. Negotiated. Quick story of what Blackburn did. Blackburn committed a robbery of a vault. They. Vegas. A million plus dollars.

[Theo]

Wow.

[Christopher Curtis]

A million plus dollars he got away with. But he got caught. So Blackburn. That's Blackburn right there.

[Theo]

Ooh, he's Asian.

[Christopher Curtis]

Yeah. Blackburn got caught. Yeah, Blackburn got. What'd you think he was?

[Theo]

Blackburn.

[Christopher Curtis]

Yeah.

[Theo]

Probably white or black.

[Christopher Curtis]

Yeah. Well, he. So he got. So he got caught. He's in the North Las Vegas. One of the North Las Vegas detention, whatever, because it was a federal crime. And his wife breaks him out of the jail. He escapes. She put a screwdriver in her hair. They unlit it. He escape.

[Theo]

Dude, I love them.

[Christopher Curtis]

There's a manhunt for them, okay? It was like the. One of the biggest manhunts in Vegas. And they kept telling us that we're gonna get. We're gonna catch him at some point and catch him. There's a reward. They find him barricaded in one of those daily suite hotels, okay? The story's trippy. He doesn't want to talk to anyone on my negotiation team. He wants to talk to the FBI agent who arrested him. This FBI agent said. When Blackburn said, am I looking at much time? He said, your probation officer hasn't been born yet. And so. So Blackburn is in there, and they're talking, you know, the. The. The. The FBI agent can, you know, hear the kids in the background. And Blackburn, it's like he was with his family. You know, he was. He was a family guy. So SWAT is set up on the house, and they're figuring out, you know, whether or when to breach. Time is on our side. But here's what happens. A cop I know is on the outer perimeter patrol officer. He's got his shotgun. He's moved from one position to the other, slinging his shotgun. His shotgun goes off. Blackburn thinks that SWAT is making an entry. It was just the guy had a negligent discharge. Blackburn then summarily shoot his wife, kid, and himself. SWAT goes in just as he's doing that and shoot Blackburn as he's fallen to the ground. And even in the testimony, the SWAT officer says, I shot a dead man because he killed him. Because Blackburn was saying stuff like, I don't want to visit my kid through a Plexiglas. And he was of the mindset that no one else is gonna raise my kid or be with my woman. And knowing that there are people like that, and that is a very. I have to walk very carefully when I say these things because this is very sensitive information. I'm only speaking from my perspective and the information that I have in hopes that it could help someone else in the future, that if you find yourself in a situation, God forbid, where there's a degree of you feel like you can't go on without a person, you can, and everyone has a sanctity life and should be able to go on one. It's just, in my opinion, not the way to go.

[Theo]

Yeah, it's. I mean, it's crazy to think of all the little pieces of all the little avenues of things you would never think need to be information or that you would glean from an officer, a sergeant, a detective, a hostage negotiator. But the simple fact that you're saying, based on my information, if you are unaliving yourself, you shouldn't un. Alive other people with you, because it's not. That's not the way to go. It's just. I don't even know who else even. Yeah, I mean, that's an easy thing just to say, but you're saying it based on information that you've seen, you know?

[Christopher Curtis]

Yeah.

[Theo]

Yeah. I think we talk, man. Thank you so much today, Chris, for joining. Man, I think a lot. It's like, it's just interesting. You start to get even more of a scope of like, like just what fills up the minds and the histories and the timelines of, of officers, of people that are there to serve, you know, people that are there to protect. And how do they manage all that?

[Christopher Curtis]

Cut people slack, too. Cut people slack. You're driving on the road when you're in a restaurant, you know, Cut people slack. You could just really avoid so much stuff by taking a deep breath and making a different decision and not bullying people, man. All of that stuff can lead to a person doing some bull crap. Like some of the stuff that we see when people barricade and want to 405 them.

[Theo]

Yeah. Because once somebody goes over the edge, they're over the edge.

[Christopher Curtis]

They're over the edge.

[Theo]

At that point, the original plateau doesn't matter to them anymore. The original gradient of things doesn't matter.

[Christopher Curtis]

You know, when I drive, I. I carry something in my center console that will address a road rage situation. And it's not what you think. I carry a clown nose, a red clown nose. And if I see a person driving crazy, I really, I really do this deal. I really do this. I put the clown nose on myself. And my only rule is I cannot take the clown nose off because I know that I'm not going to yell and scream, scream at a person while I have the clown nose on. And if I take the clown nose off, I'm being a clown. You will not believe how many times that has stopped me from acting like an idiot. And it's just such a stupid, basic, simple way to avoid road rage. Because I tell you, the thing that will get the average citizen in trouble. Two things. One is a domestic violence situation. And the number two Thing is something that they do. Driving, drinking, or acting like an idiot in a road rage. Those are the two things.

[Theo]

Those are the top two. Say them one more time.

[Christopher Curtis]

So domestic. Domestic. Get into a situation because, you know, domestic is brother to brother. I've been to so many calls. One time I went to a call, a brother got out of the military. He's on leave from the military. They got drunk, they got into a fight. That's domestic. You know, it's a mandatory arrest. So that's an average citizen. And, you know, you lose your right to carry a firearm, then that's a misdemeanor. And then the other thing is some kind of driving, road rage, battery situation that a person gets to. Or drinking and driving.

[Theo]

There's the top. Top.

[Christopher Curtis]

So you called three, because if you want to say drinking and driving or road raging and getting into a situation where you end up, you know, getting into a. A fight with someone, those things, three things are the civilian, the civilian things that happen all the time. If you can control those things, plummet.

[Theo]

Odds are you're going to be super safe.

[Christopher Curtis]

Yes.

[Theo]

Man. Christopher Curtis, thanks so much for hanging out, dude. I got to take my mom to eat or I would chat a little more.

[Christopher Curtis]

No, I'm down, brother. I mean, I really appreciate, appreciate. It was an awesome experience. Great hotel. Your team is phenomenal, brother. You got a really cool team, man.

[Theo]

Oh, thank you, dude. Yeah, I feel really lucky. You know, I think we did a good job today of like, kind of learning about some stuff. And also some of it is just like getting into the psyche of seeing what it's like to go through the minds of someone who's gone through your life and then. Yeah, how do you best try to manage it? And then what can we even expect out of people, you know, know who aren't able to manage their. Their emotions and mental. The fatigue wears on them, you know, and they're not able to manage it, but they're still required to be at work, you know, it's like, it's a huge asking. It's a huge fucking undertaking.

[Christopher Curtis]

It is. But this is good stuff, and I hope that it helps officers and civilians alike.

[Theo]

Yeah. Well, it's just great to have this conversation, man, and we learn more as we go. Christopher Curtis, thank you so much, dude. And yeah, I appreciate. I love that hat, dude. Miserote mi gente papa Now I'm just floating on the breeze and I feel I'm falling like these leaves I must.

[Christopher Curtis]

Be cornerstone oh but when I reach.

[Theo]

That ground I'll share this piece of my life found I can can feel.

[Christopher Curtis]

It in my bones but it's gonna take.