#610 - Steven Rinella

Summary

This Past Weekend w/ Theo Von - Episode #610: Steven Rinella

Release Date: September 15, 2025

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Overview

In this episode, Theo Von sits down with renowned outdoorsman, hunter, author, and host of the Netflix show “MeatEater,” Steven Rinella. The conversation traverses hunting lore, wildlife conservation, American nature history, animal psychology, and prehistory, with a signature mix of humor and deep curiosity. The pair reflect on the wild turkey’s history, public perceptions of hunting ethics, the human relationship with nature and danger, as well as digressions into Neanderthal ancestry, Alaskan wilderness, and personal stories that blend wit with surprising detail. Throughout, Rinella imparts a treasure trove of ecological and historical knowledge—all in the context of playful, at times irreverent, banter.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Introduction and Icebreakers

• Fun with Amish and Energy Drinks
  • Theo shares a story about giving an Amish kid a Celsius energy drink during Rum Springa, joking about the resulting cultural collision.
    • “You put that brain petrol that is Celsius into a damn Amish, you know, he might wind up plugging something in.” (Theo, 01:24)

Wild Turkey: Anatomy, History, and Lore

• Turkey’s Reputational Misunderstandings

  • Theo describes turkeys as “unwell birds,” leading to spirited debate.
    • “They just seem like they, they got picked last for gym.” (Theo, 04:22)
  • Steve passionately defends turkeys as complex, formidable, and uniquely American birds, outlining their distinctive features (color-changing heads, spurs, beard, snood).
    • “That is the…best bird in our country.” (Steve, 06:17)
  • Historical tidbit: Ben Franklin favored the turkey over the bald eagle as America’s national bird for its virtues and beauty.
    • “Franklin said America ought to go with the wild turkey, because at least it’s a vain bird.” (Steve, 05:26)

• Turkey Behavior and Mating Rituals

  • Deep-dive into turkey courtship, vocalizations, and hunter strategies.
    • “When he’s coming in and his head gets that whitish color to it...he is fired up.” (Steve, 09:03)
    • Explanation of calls and how changes in head color signal mood.
  • Conservation history: Near-extinction and restoration in North America, led primarily by hunters and organizations like the NWTF (National Wild Turkey Federation).
    • “You can hunt turkeys now in more states than had turkeys.” (Steve, 15:18)

• Urban vs. Wild Turkeys

  • Discussion on how urban “town turkeys,” which behave differently from wild turkeys, distort public perception of their intelligence and vigilance.
    • “When I think of a turkey, I’m thinking of a persecuted turkey. Some people are thinking of a town turkey…it’s just different.” (Steve, 16:40)

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Hunting, Conservation & American Wildlife

• The “North American Model” and Hunter Impact

  • Steve elaborates on how hunting-funded organizations supplied the main financial and labor backbone for species recovery in the US.
    • “The most impactful wildlife conservation organizations…that comes from hunters, that comes from hunting-based organizations.” (Steve, 76:21)
  • Example: Hunters restored turkey and wild sheep populations, often with little personal hunting opportunity as motivation.
  • “We fund it, we do the groundwork…that’s just the reality.” (Steve, 76:43)

• Ethics and Public Perceptions

  • Theo raises controversies about posting images with big game/trophy animals and public misunderstanding of “hunting as conservation.”
    • “How can you help a species by hunting it? Wouldn’t that be…illogical?” (Theo, 72:12)
    • Steve unpacks how hunting sustains conservation funding, habitat protection, and species restoration, both in the US and places like Tanzania.

• Historical Exploitation and Recovery

  • Steve discusses cycles where hunting led species to the brink, then reversed course to become agents of recovery, using the wild buffalo, beaver, and wild sheep as examples.
    • “The practice of hunting has done a lot of damage and has done a lot of recovery—we've righted the wrongs of our fathers.” (Steve, 111:50)

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Evolution, Prehistory, and Human-Animal Connections

• Innate Fear of Snakes/Serpentine Lore

  • Anecdotes on childhood snake encounters.
  • Discussion on the possible evolutionary or genetic roots of human fear of snakes.
    • “We carry with us this innate…fear of serpents...it does you well to be like, stand off.” (Steve, 62:26)
  • Speculates about how first Americans reacted after thousands of snake-free generations upon entering lands populated with serpents.

• Neanderthal Ancestry and Human Evolution

  • Chat about DNA ancestry tests, interbreeding between modern humans, Neanderthals, Denisovans.
    • “At a certain time, you could have been in Spain...and you would have had to ask yourself, what kind of human is that?” (Steve, 84:29)
  • Steve seeks a legit, passionate Neanderthal behavioralist for his podcast guest slot.
    • “I want to find a really good Neanderthal behavioralist…a verbose, animated, Neanderthal researcher.” (Steve, 91:13)

• Ecological and Cultural Connections

  • Reflection on ancient practices (hunting, eating meat) as drivers of human development, social structure, and intellectual advances.
    • “That’s when humans became bright and developed like religion and organizational structure and language…when we discovered meat eating.” (Steve, 80:58)
  • Discussion on the prodigious presence of Eurasian-origin domesticated animals in America, with the turkey as a rare strictly North American contributor.

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Life, Danger, and Perception

• Public vs. Actual Danger in Wilderness

  • Steve and Theo muse on the psychological gap between perceived and real outdoors dangers.
    • “The most dangerous thing that’s going to happen is us driving to the airport.” (Steve, 49:57)
    • Exposure and travel pose higher risks than wildlife, but snakes/cats capture greater imagination.

• Experiences in Africa & Ancient Cultures

  • Steve describes the immersive and profound experience of meeting Maasai herders and encountering Africa’s megafauna.
    • “It immerses you in a situation and environment…doing something very ancient and base.” (Steve, 99:26)
  • Africa as the “last Ice Age,” where megafauna diversity persists.
    • “Africa is the one continent where humans and all this megafauna never changed…so the Ice Age is alive and well.” (Steve, 103:24)

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Memorable Moments & Quotes

• On Turkey Anatomy:
  • “They got a beard, which is actually a feather. When that gets so big that it drags on the ground, you know what you call them? Rope dragger.” (Steve, 08:08)
• On Conservation:
  • “Turkeys are so everywhere now that now we have town turkeys…so the mystique…it costs them some of their mystique.” (Steve, 15:42)
• On Conservation Funding:
  • “Your state’s fish and game agency gets the bulk of its funding from people buying hunting and fishing licenses.” (Steve, 73:31)
• On Human Prehistory:
  • “There’s an idea that humans’ intellectual renaissance…is when we discovered meat eating.” (Steve, 80:58)

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Notable Timestamps

• [01:13] – [02:59]: Theo and Steve icebreak, Amish & Rum Springa, segues to unique lifestyles.
• [04:07] – [16:40]: Deep-dive into wild turkey biology, history, Ben Franklin lore, and restoration.
• [16:40] – [18:58]: Wild vs. “town” turkeys and the American origin of domestic turkey.
• [71:12] – [81:43]: Conservation, funding, hunting ethics, and the restoration of American game species.
• [60:50] – [68:51]: Snake psychology, evolutionary fear, and the story of the first Americans encountering snakes.
• [91:13] – [94:33]: Neanderthal pop-sci, “Neanderthal rebranding,” seeking experts, and genes.
• [98:35] – [104:22]: Africa, Maasai, megafauna, the lasting “Ice Age” in Africa, and emotional impacts of seeing large animals.
• [110:57] – [112:52]: Steve’s books and audio originals on American wildlife, conservation, and industry history.
• [112:19] – [112:52]: The arc from exploitative to restorative hunting; relationship with nature.

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Closing & Invites

• Theo and Steve bond over mutual love of the outdoors and plan a future fishing trip in Montana.
  • “I would be honored to take you out fishing.” (Steve, 108:31)
• Steve discusses his latest work: new MeatEater season and “MeatEater’s American History” audio series.
• They encourage audience members to reach out if they’re experts or can connect to experts on topics like Neanderthals.

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Tone and Style

The conversation is a blend of irreverent comedy, earnest learning, and rich anecdotal storytelling in true Theo Von style, with Steve bringing encyclopedic ecological knowledge and passion for the outdoors. The episode is lively, genuine, and sprawling—ranging from absurd hypothetical scenarios and riffs to surprisingly thorough explorations of conservation policy, prehistory, and cultural connections to nature.

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Recommended for:
Listeners interested in wildlife, conservation, American history, quirky humor, or who are curious about the practical and philosophical sides of hunting and nature. This episode is a feast of both laughs and learning, and a showcase of the intersection between the wild and the world we shape.

Transcript

[Theo Von]

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[Steve Rinella]

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[Theo Von]

Today's guest is a renowned outdoorsman. He's a hunter, he's a survivalist. He has his own show, meat Eater, on Netflix, as well as his podcast. I had a great time learning about some of the beautiful and brutal aspects of our world. Today's guest is Mr. Steve Ranell. The final song. Oh, you're having a little, huh? You having a little bit of that?

[Steve Rinella]

I'm familiar with that product.

[Theo Von]

Oh, hell yeah, brother. We just gave some to an Amish kid the other day. Never had it. Huh?

[Steve Rinella]

Do you like it?

[Theo Von]

What? Celsius.

[Steve Rinella]

I mean, when you gave it to him, did he dig it?

[Theo Von]

I mean, he definitely. He couldn't. He couldn't bend his arms for a couple minutes. It hit him because of why? I mean, brother, just unfamiliar, I think. Yeah, something like. Something, you know, you put that brain petrol that is Celsius into a damn Amish, you know, he might wind up plugging something in. I mean, he might. I thought he's gonna get.

[Steve Rinella]

He's gonna put his finger in that. He wants to find out what it's all about. He's gonna put his finger in that socket.

[Theo Von]

Yeah, I thought he did. I thought he's gonna get court martialed right there or something. I don't know what was gonna happen.

[Steve Rinella]

What was the circumstances. You were hanging out with Amish guy.

[Theo Von]

We finally got a hold of one.

[Steve Rinella]

Woodwork. Oh, okay.

[Theo Von]

Yeah, no, no, yeah, we finally got a hold of one. We've been trying to not capture an Amish or whatever. I don't know what the terminology is, but we've been trying to wrangle one, I guess because you can't get a hold of them. You know, you can put messages out there. You can do message in a bottle or. They don't reply to a lot of that. And so finally we had a guy who was on Rum Springer. He was on their. Kind of like, it's like sp break for the Amish. And. And he Came to a comedy show. There he is right there.

[Steve Rinella]

And well, on Rome Springer, he looks young for Rome Springer.

[Theo Von]

He's young. He got out there and he brought me this hat, too. And he came. Great. Great kid, though. We learned so much about it. But he'd never seen so many things. It was unbelievable. But he never had a hit of Celsius when we got it in him, so we'll see.

[Steve Rinella]

Now he's got his Rum Springer documented.

[Theo Von]

Oh, yeah.

[Steve Rinella]

But it might make it difficult for him to integrate back in.

[Theo Von]

Oh, I'm sure, dude.

[Steve Rinella]

Yeah. Because people. Well, maybe they won't. Maybe his community won't know.

[Theo Von]

Yeah, I don't. I mean. Yeah, that's a good point. I don't even know.

[Steve Rinella]

It'd be a good honesty test if they know.

[Theo Von]

Right.

[Steve Rinella]

You'll know. They violated.

[Theo Von]

How do they know? Yeah, you know, it's a good point, actually. So we're helping out. Yeah. But it was just interesting to get to talk somebody who'd lived like, you know, it's a total different life than. Than the average American, probably.

[Steve Rinella]

Are you making your show right now or is this pre. Are we pre making the show?

[Theo Von]

Oh, this can be the show. Yeah. I mean, we can start into it. Sorry.

[Steve Rinella]

Oh, no, I don't care.

[Theo Von]

And so that's one type of person who kind of has their own, like, way of living.

[Steve Rinella]

Yep.

[Theo Von]

And you're another type of person who has had a unique life and has.

[Steve Rinella]

Like, good, good, good. Transition, was it? Yeah.

[Theo Von]

Oh, damn. I thought it was going to be. I think. I don't know what's going to happen, but. No, you have a show on Netflix called Meat Eater, and you guys are in your. You guys are.

[Steve Rinella]

We made a lot. We've been. We've been. We got. I got a 13th season of the show coming out. We've made many, many, many episodes over the years.

[Theo Von]

Yeah.

[Steve Rinella]

And they appear in a lot of different places.

[Theo Von]

Yep. We've seen some of them on YouTube. I've gotten to enjoy some of them. So thank you so much, man. It's definitely exciting to watch. It's really beautifully shot to you guys. Show.

[Steve Rinella]

You went turkey hunt with Mike Waddell, I heard.

[Theo Von]

Oh, yeah, I did. Yeah. I went down there and it was fun, but it's like, I don't know. Some of the tur. It's like they just seem like an unwell bird.

[Steve Rinella]

What do you mean? Turkeys unwell? In what way?

[Theo Von]

They just don't seem like they're like a top. Like, I don't want to Say like they on it. Like, I don't want to say uneducated. They just seem like they. Like they got picked last for Jim kind of.

[Steve Rinella]

Dude, that's the dumbest thing I've ever heard.

[Theo Von]

Really?

[Steve Rinella]

Oh, yeah. About a turkey.

[Theo Von]

Yeah. If you look at a turkey to seem like they. Like, they can't do. They just are. Yeah, they just. I don't know. They weren't doing a lot.

[Steve Rinella]

Dude, it's a big ass bird. His head changes colors from red to white to blue. He tastes good.

[Theo Von]

Yeah. He's basically the Toby walk around the.

[Steve Rinella]

Woods making insane noises. Yeah, but I mean, like, he. It's an omnivore. It can eat all kinds of. It could eat all kinds of stuff.

[Theo Von]

Okay, well, now you're selling me on it. Yeah, I mean, like.

[Steve Rinella]

Like a better name, a better bird. It's like you could be, oh, a bald eagle. He eats a bunch of rotten fish from the side, like. Like a turkey. That's America's bird, dude. Are you familiar with a gentleman named Ben Franklin?

[Theo Von]

Yeah.

[Steve Rinella]

Okay. Do you know that Franklin didn't like the bald eagle as a national bird because it was a scavenger and he threw out some. It's debated how honest you. It's bait is debated if he was trying to be a smart ass or not. Ben Franklin said America ought to go with the wild turkey because at least it's a vain bird.

[Theo Von]

What does vain bird mean?

[Steve Rinella]

It's beautiful. He puffs his feather. The male puffs his feathers all out. Yeah, he's got a snood. He's got like a. Imagine like a packer on your. Laid across your face.

[Theo Von]

Okay.

[Steve Rinella]

That changes all the time. It gets erect. Wait, it goes limp.

[Theo Von]

Turkey has that.

[Steve Rinella]

Yeah. Dude, it's like to just like, come in and like, start disparaging a turkey right off the top of the bat. You don't know me.

[Theo Von]

I'm just. Okay. I'm just.

[Steve Rinella]

It's like very. It's like, it's disrespectful. That is a. That is a. That is the. The best. That's the best bird in our. In our country.

[Theo Von]

Okay, well, look, I didn't. No one's ever, first of all, lobbied for this animal in front of me.

[Steve Rinella]

Well, Franklin. Well, not in front of you. Yeah, yeah, right. I didn't know. I. I didn't know him personally.

[Theo Von]

And you don't know how old I am. Maybe I was there.

[Steve Rinella]

I'm with you.

[Theo Von]

But no, Waddell did not. Waddell was just like, we're Killing these mfers. And he used some slurs. I'll say that straight up. He used a couple slurs. And I was like, I don't think those are for birds or animalia even. But he was like, I think I. I think I just had a unique angle into it. Tell me more about that nose wiener that they got or that nose called a snood. Okay, bring it up.

[Steve Rinella]

They got. See, you get into turkey anatomy, man, they got a lot going on for him. They got a snood. There's not many birds that have, like, basically a. So they have a cloaca. Like, birds have a cloaca, like, called, like a uni hole. All their actions. Defecating, taking a leak. Well, when they defecate and take a leak, it's kind of a single deal.

[Theo Von]

Okay, I'll do that.

[Steve Rinella]

They have sex through the uni hole when they. You can tell a male from a female by the shape of its.

[Theo Von]

Wow.

[Steve Rinella]

A male throws a J shaped hooked. So there's not many birds you can sex his. Yeah, he's got a snood. They got spurs, sometimes an inch and a quarter long. For fighting.

[Theo Von]

Oh, yeah.

[Steve Rinella]

You ever been to a cockfight? Okay, they got spurs. Look at that. Some of those spurs are so big, you can hang the turkey by the spur on a branch. That's called a limb hanger. That means he's huge. Some got a. They got, like, pull up the beard. Pull up the beard.

[Theo Von]

Pull up the beard.

[Steve Rinella]

They got a beard, which is actually a feather. Look at that.

[Theo Von]

Hold on. Let me see it.

[Steve Rinella]

When he's big, when that. When that gets so big that it drags on the ground. You know what you call them? Rope dragger.

[Theo Von]

Oh, yeah.

[Steve Rinella]

So you got limb hangers. Rope draggers. Yeah. Like, it's just. You kind of.

[Theo Von]

Okay.

[Steve Rinella]

I could. You know, I could walk out of this room right now.

[Theo Von]

Okay.

[Steve Rinella]

And it'd be like. You know what I mean?

[Theo Von]

Yeah.

[Steve Rinella]

But I'm not gonna do that.

[Theo Von]

Well, first of all.

[Steve Rinella]

Yeah. Because you talk bad about the America's bird.

[Theo Von]

I appreciate that. And look, I'm glad that I'm not.

[Steve Rinella]

Gonna get up and storm out.

[Theo Von]

Dude, you might. No, but look, you won't storm out without teaching me something. I'll say that. And I didn't know any of that.

[Steve Rinella]

Turkeys are great.

[Theo Von]

Yeah.

[Steve Rinella]

Their head changes from red, white, to blue. It's kind of like they knew that they were going to be America's bird.

[Theo Von]

Oh, yeah. They're the Trace Atkins of birds.

[Steve Rinella]

When they get real excited, like when you see when he's coming in and his head gets that whitish color to it?

[Theo Von]

Huh?

[Steve Rinella]

He is fired up.

[Theo Von]

Okay, so what does that mean when their head changes to different colors? Look at this guy.

[Steve Rinella]

He's white. Like, blue and white.

[Theo Von]

He's torn between some feelings.

[Steve Rinella]

Yeah. Blue and white. He's. He's in. He's like blue and white. He's coming in. You hunt him in the spring during the breeding season.

[Theo Von]

Okay.

[Steve Rinella]

Blue and white. He's coming in and he's. He's. He's thinking. He's thinking about ass.

[Theo Von]

Okay, so he's looking for sex. But yeah, Waddell had us. We were in the offseat. They were in the locker room and we went face them. They were not even on the field. They were back there.

[Steve Rinella]

Yep.

[Theo Von]

Getting physical there. I mean, we were in some. I was like, should we even. Yeah. Some of them had their towels around their necks. They were sitting there texting their wives. Like, there was the off season.

[Steve Rinella]

He's coming in. Like, he's coming in. You see a blue head.

[Theo Von]

Okay.

[Steve Rinella]

And then all of a sudden, you know, and he's coming in, he's all puffed out. And another thing, so.

[Theo Von]

I know. I'm sorry.

[Steve Rinella]

Well, they got. So they got the big. You heard the big gobble?

[Theo Von]

Yes.

[Steve Rinella]

All right. If you're. If you're telling a turkey hunting story and you get to the part of the story where, like, picture you're telling a story has a gun in it.

[Theo Von]

Okay.

[Steve Rinella]

And we get to the part of the story where the gun goes off, you go like. And I heard bang. Right. Some of it sounds like.

[Theo Von]

Right.

[Steve Rinella]

But you go back and then. Yeah. A friend of mine's Latvian, and when they hear. When they get to a part of a story where the gun goes off, they say, blouch.

[Theo Von]

Okay.

[Steve Rinella]

So if you're telling a turkey story and he gobbles, it's hard to make the gobble noise. So in a store you'd go. Yeah, but it's like. But if you. When he's coming in, like, if he's coming in and he thinks he's coming into a hen. You're making a hen noise.

[Theo Von]

Yeah, yeah. So the noise that the man that. That, like, Michael Waddell was making, and he makes that noise really well.

[Steve Rinella]

Oh, yeah. He's. He's the best of the best.

[Theo Von]

Oh, yeah. I mean, he was calling a couple of. But I mean, even some busty chicks from the gas station.

[Steve Rinella]

He was competitive. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So he's making a hand noise and What's. What's.

[Theo Von]

Oh, dude. People were. Dudes were coming out of the closet when he was doing. I mean, he'll. He'll call. He'll. He'll get you. He'll get people going.

[Steve Rinella]

No, he's very good. And what. What. Like, what would happen and what would happen in the natural setting there is the gobbler is just cruising, okay.

[Theo Von]

And the Gobbler is that big male turkey.

[Steve Rinella]

He's a big male turkey. He's cruising, and chicks are supposed to hear him. And, like, he doesn't.

[Theo Von]

He.

[Steve Rinella]

He's kind of got his little route, and they're supposed to kind of come into him. So he's on the highway, going down the highway, and they're kind of coming on the ramps.

[Theo Von]

Okay. The on ramps to catch him. Oh, oh.

[Steve Rinella]

So what you're trying to do is you're trying to get him to be like, well, I'm gonna go over there and have a C. Like, that's not normally what I would do.

[Theo Von]

Right.

[Steve Rinella]

But what is going on over there? I need to go out of my way now to go have a C. Ah. What's happening? If. When he's coming, you see, like, a blue head and he's coming and he's going like this. You can't hear it. Like, if you hear it, he's in range. He's going. Here's what it sounds like. He's.

[Theo Von]

Okay.

[Steve Rinella]

He's doing two things. He's spitting.

[Theo Von]

Okay.

[Steve Rinella]

He's making a noise. We always goof on it and go, like. But it's like he's making a noise with his mouth.

[Theo Von]

Okay.

[Steve Rinella]

And he's taking his wings and on the ground.

[Theo Von]

Okay.

[Steve Rinella]

And that is the. That is, like, extremely exciting noise to hear.

[Theo Von]

So the first part is with their actual. They do it with their mouth. And the second part they do with their wings on the ground.

[Steve Rinella]

He's drumming.

[Theo Von]

Wow. So it's a real mating call.

[Steve Rinella]

Yeah. Like, he'll. You'll hear him. Like, you'll hear him. He's kind of like making. He's like doing a vocalization. He's doing a vocalization, but, like, he's got his. His wings you hear on the ground.

[Theo Von]

Okay.

[Steve Rinella]

And you'll even see. You'll sometimes be going down a sandy trail or something. You'll see the wing drags, and you can tell that one's been cutting it out there. And they do this little dance.

[Theo Von]

Wow.

[Steve Rinella]

Oh, yes, dude. It's the best thing in the world. But if he's coming in and all of a Sudden, his head turns red. His head turns red and lifts up. And if he goes games up.

[Theo Von]

Oh, he knows.

[Steve Rinella]

He knows that you. He knows that. He knows that it's not good. Like, when you hear that noise, he's on his way out. But what's the problem?

[Theo Von]

When you hear what noise? On the way at that.

[Steve Rinella]

When he putts.

[Theo Von]

Oh, when he puts.

[Steve Rinella]

His head goes boom. Red lifts up and putts. He's gone. But they don't do anything too quick. But that's his way of saying, like, I don't like it.

[Theo Von]

Wow.

[Steve Rinella]

This isn't about ladies anymore. Oh.

[Theo Von]

It's about dudes being secretive, pretending they're women.

[Steve Rinella]

No, they're like an absolutely fascinating bird. You know, I took.

[Theo Von]

Wow. Yeah. I didn't.

[Steve Rinella]

Years ago. Like, you've been out, you know. You know, Rogan, I turkey hunt with him years ago, and he wound up being kind of underwhelmed by turkeys. There might be something like. Like some kind of, like, offshoot of being a comedian, is that you can't appreciate turkeys.

[Theo Von]

Well, I think there's.

[Steve Rinella]

Think that there might be something to that.

[Theo Von]

That's a good question, I think. Oh, I remember watching this. He had Brian Callan, too, which was. That's hilarious.

[Steve Rinella]

Oh, yeah. They didn't appreciate turkeys. Drove me.

[Theo Von]

Yeah, I know turkey people do not like it. If you do not like Turk talking about being thinking about turkey.

[Steve Rinella]

No, you just said something bad about my three kids. I've been like, yeah, I see that. Yeah, that's fair. But like, with the turkey deal. No.

[Theo Von]

Right. It's baked. Yeah. Turkey's baked into American history. I didn't know that much about turkeys. I think if I knew some of this, and maybe I didn't even. I didn't ask enough stuff. You know, I think if I'd have asked more stuff and I'd have known a little bit more of, like, the lore, I think I probably would have been more hyped about it.

[Steve Rinella]

Yeah. With one more lore bit.

[Theo Von]

Yeah, sure. So.

[Steve Rinella]

When. At the time of, like, when Europeans arrived in North America, there were turkeys. They think there may be turkeys in, like, 34 states. And then they were extirpated from many of those states because they were good to eat everyone to eat them, people to hunt them at night, shoot them out of the trees at night. Oh, it was a popular food item.

[Theo Von]

Yeah.

[Steve Rinella]

And they nearly wiped them out. And it got to where there's only turkeys hiding out and, like, the deepest patches of swamps up in the highest Mountain woods, you know, hiding out here and there. And it got bad. Right. There's only a couple states where you're allowed to hunt them anymore. And then they started putting them back out there. You can hunt turkeys, and you can hunt turkeys now in 49 states.

[Theo Von]

Wow.

[Steve Rinella]

You can hunt turkeys now in more states than had turkeys. A cost to that of the bird is that people now take the bird for granted. Like, from a PR standpoint, I was talking about eagles earlier. From a PR standpoint, eagles are kind of everywhere now. There's still. People will see an eagle and they'll be like, oh, my God, an eagle. But, dude, you know, we have a little shack in Alaska, and you might see 13 eagles in one tree.

[Theo Von]

Yeah.

[Steve Rinella]

So from a PR standpoint, they have a little bit of. They, like, you risk overexposure as a bird. Turkeys are so everywhere now that now we have, like, town turkeys, but they're.

[Theo Von]

Just wandering around like stray animals.

[Steve Rinella]

So the mystique, it, like, it costs them some of their mystique.

[Theo Von]

Ah.

[Steve Rinella]

And then people will get a sense from town turkeys, which aren't hunted, they'll get a sense of that a turkey is whatever. That he's not cautious, that he's not careful. Right, right.

[Theo Von]

That'll just use any crosswalk or whatever.

[Steve Rinella]

Yeah. So a lot of times when people disparage the turkey, they're referring to some town turkey, but they don't know what a turkey. He's out there busting ass in the woods.

[Theo Von]

Yeah.

[Steve Rinella]

With people trying to kill them.

[Theo Von]

Yeah.

[Steve Rinella]

And coyotes trying to kill them and bobcats trying to kill them and red fox trying to kill them and possums eating their eggs and skunks eating their eggs and raccoons eating their eggs. Great horned owls blasting them out of trees. And they survive through all that. So when I think of a turkey, I'm thinking of a persecuted turkey. Some people are thinking of a town turkey.

[Theo Von]

Yeah.

[Steve Rinella]

It's just different.

[Theo Von]

Yeah. I think I was probably thinking of, like. Yeah. I mean, there's a turkey right there who's almost Town turkey. Yeah. Catching a bus to work or whatever. I mean, that's unbelievable. That that's what's. I didn't. I didn't know. I mean, I think that gives me, like, definitely a different appreciation for them. I didn't know they had so much baked in. Like, there's such a thermometer of, like, sexual activity. And so many, like, little ratings are relevant Right. On them and the way that they operate and the Sounds that they make.

[Steve Rinella]

They're a dynamic bird. Well.

[Theo Von]

And that I'll agree to 100%, man.

[Steve Rinella]

So all like, here's another thing about them. One more.

[Theo Von]

Yeah.

[Steve Rinella]

Most of the domestic animals that we utilize, okay. When you go into a store and you see what's for sale down there for domestic meats, you know, whether you buy even you buy weird, like you buy lamb, go pork, beef, okay? That's all that all winds up being like Eurasian species of Eurasian origin that became domesticated.

[Theo Von]

And when you say Eurasian, what are you talking about? You're talking about animals.

[Steve Rinella]

Animals that are indigenous animals that are endemic to Europe and Asia became like the domestics that we know today.

[Theo Von]

Wow.

[Steve Rinella]

So when you see like a horse, that's a Eurasian creature. Cattle came from a thing called the oryx. Okay. Goats came from other continents, Sheep, other continents. The turkey is uniquely North American.

[Theo Von]

Really?

[Steve Rinella]

Okay. So when the Spanish came, they took turkeys, they drew turkeys from Mesoamerica, brought them back to Europe and turned them into like the white looking butterball turkeys through selective breeding, and then brought those turkeys back to the New World. But it's like the New World's contribution. It's North America's contribution to the domesticated species that we know and love today.

[Theo Von]

Got it.

[Steve Rinella]

So if you go into a meat market and you're like, they got all the normal laid out. Turkey is one that you're like that. That's origin is here. It's a. It's a New World creature. Because the New World didn't produce. The New World didn't produce domestics. Like, they didn't. We haven't, like, effectively domesticated New World animals, but the turkey's an exception.

[Theo Von]

Wow. So that really is kind of our national animal, huh?

[Steve Rinella]

Oh, yeah, dude.

[Theo Von]

You think it's our most national animal? Not just bird.

[Steve Rinella]

I can't answer that. I haven't thought about that before.

[Theo Von]

Yeah. Damn, dude. No, thanks, bro. Yeah, I think it's interesting, like. Yeah. To learn about that kind of stuff. I. When I was growing up and stuff, I didn't have like a lot of influence, like, in that kind of world, you know?

[Steve Rinella]

Like, wow, the wildlife world.

[Theo Von]

Yeah, I think hunting or something. I mean, the first thing. I mean, I saw a buddy of mine get shot by a couple brothers at Mardi Gras once. That was like my intro to hunting, you know, like. And I was like, oh, do you live or die? Huh? He lived. Yeah.

[Steve Rinella]

Where did he get hit?

[Theo Von]

He got hit in the back kind of right here.

[Steve Rinella]

Just a stray Bullet?

[Theo Von]

Yeah. Look like a.

[Steve Rinella]

Like, aimed at him or he just.

[Theo Von]

Caught a bullet aimed at him.

[Steve Rinella]

Oh, I got it.

[Theo Von]

Yeah. Or like semi aimed, I guess. Yeah. I mean, the guy looked like he didn't know what he was doing that much, but he was shooting. Yeah, that's.

[Steve Rinella]

You know, I said I wanted to ask you a question. I wanted to, like, how many years did you spend growing up in Louisiana? When I was. I was reading up on your background a little bit, and you spent time in Illinois, but also in Louisiana.

[Theo Von]

Yeah, I spent time in Louisiana until I think I was maybe 21 or 22. And. But, yeah, we go up to Illinois in the. In the. In the summers and fish. We did a ton of fishing, and we would do a good bit of fishing in Louisiana, but I just never really got into hunting. The first time I ever went hunting was with Michael Waddell.

[Steve Rinella]

Oh, okay.

[Theo Von]

Yeah.

[Steve Rinella]

What I want with Louisiana. Have you. That was the last state I ever went to. And I mean, like, went to. Went to was Louisiana. Have you. Did you switch. Did you switch to Gulf of America?

[Theo Von]

No.

[Steve Rinella]

You didn't switch?

[Theo Von]

No, I would be. Will. I want to see how it pans out first, because Mexico. Bring it up. Let's get a look at that big puddle, brother. Because what I'm trying to see is where is most of the land around it?

[Steve Rinella]

Well, all over the place. Northern South America.

[Theo Von]

I think you do a year for each area. Like, maybe you do. Like, everybody gets a year, and then you look back and see how good that year was. You do, like. And then they get it. You know what I'm saying? You get one year to operate that m. Effort, and then you see who really owns that. That's. To me, that's, like, a fair way to do it.

[Steve Rinella]

Yeah. The reason I was asked about it is we. Once I found out about Louisiana, we filmed a couple. We filmed a number of episodes down there. I started going there with friends because we spearfished the oil rigs, and. And so right when all that was heating up. Okay. We're like, cutting an episode about that was filmed out in the Gulf. And between the time I wrote the VO and the time we recorded the vo, all this hit the fan. Okay. So I'm sitting there, and in my. In my script, it's Gulf of Mexico, but then it switches.

[Theo Von]

Yeah.

[Steve Rinella]

So we're in the studio, and I'm talking to my colleagues, and we're trying to decide what way we roll on it. We tried doing, like, a joke. We tried doing, like, the Gulf of you Know, but then we thought, that's like a dated joke. And in the end, after careful contemplation, I was like, I. I can't switch.

[Theo Von]

Yeah.

[Steve Rinella]

Like, I'm old. You know, I'm half a century old.

[Theo Von]

Yeah.

[Steve Rinella]

It's just. It's. Maybe I'll leave it to the youngers, but for me, I can't, Like, I can't do it. I can't switch.

[Theo Von]

Yeah. It just seemed kind of like. I think you got to figure out who's going to earn it. I think you got to find some way. Maybe there's a competition each year and then between Mexico and America and some of the other countries. Those are smaller countries that are touching it, I think. Like Cuba.

[Steve Rinella]

They ain't going to be the Gulf of Cuba, though.

[Theo Von]

They're probably. Yeah, they probably wouldn't let that happen. But I think you have a competition each year, and whoever wins it, they get to name it. Maybe it's a soccer game or something. And whoever wins it, they get it.

[Steve Rinella]

For the fishing contest.

[Theo Von]

Yeah, that's kind of fucking dope, actually.

[Steve Rinella]

Like, a soccer tournament isn't really applicable.

[Theo Von]

Well, I think it's applicable, Stephen. And what I'm going to tell you is this, brother. That's as far as I got with that. But I think it's. I think the soccer will be fun because a lot of people love soccer. That's what I'm thinking, you know? But, yeah, maybe it's a fishing rodeo, I think.

[Steve Rinella]

Then. Then there. Aren't they automatically going to kick our ass?

[Theo Von]

I don't know.

[Steve Rinella]

I was trying to think something we'd win better.

[Theo Von]

Maybe it's a. And this would actually be. This is actually a great idea. I think it's 10 events. Mexico and America. Yes.

[Steve Rinella]

Look. Of all the man. Yeah. Swimming in there, hunting on the edge of it.

[Theo Von]

I wonder if we could get spearfish in it. Spear fishing and just somebody singing near the edge and seeing if officials swim up. That's fishing.

[Steve Rinella]

You know, I was gonna tell you about these. I told your producer this guys I work with for Biony. Celsiuses. And I didn't know that. I didn't had. I didn't really read the. What was on there.

[Theo Von]

So.

[Steve Rinella]

I was drinking them all damn time. Like, they were. I was drinking them like. Like. Like seltzers. And I was having a hard time sleeping and someone pointed out they're like, well, you've been drinking those stupid things all day. And I was. I was like. I thought I was drinking Lacroix or something.

[Theo Von]

It is good. I know that. I'll say this straight up, baby bear. Anywhere worth going is worth going in a boot. I put my feet in some boots and I say, yeah baby girl, I love that. And I found some perfect pairs of boots with Tacovas. Tacova's crafts quality western boots for everyone from generational ranchers and lifelong cowboys to first time boot buyers to Cova's boots are handcrafted with over 200 meticulous steps for broken in comfort right out of the box. When the leaves start changing, that means it's boot season. Whether you're in the office, you're out on a date night, or you're just meeting up for a casual hang, or you're just tickling a kid in the park. Boots are great because you can dress them up or down. I love them. And right now you can get 10% [e-mail] Theo when you sign up for email and texts, that's 10% off at t e c o v a s.com Theo to cova.com Theo C site for details to Cova's point your toes west. In business, they say you can have better, cheaper or faster. But you can only pick two. What if you could have all three at the same time? That's exactly what Cohere, Thomson Reuters and Specialized bikes have since they upgraded to the next generation of the cloud. Oracle Cloud Infrastructure OCI is the blazing fast platform for your infrastructure, database, application development and AI needs where you can run any workload in a high availability, consistently high performance environment and spend less than you would with other clouds. How is it faster? OCI's block storage gives you more operations per second cheaper. OCI costs up to 50% less for compute, 70% less for storage and 80% less for networking. Better. In test after test, OCI customers report lower latency and higher bandwidth versus other clouds. This is the cloud built for AI and all your biggest workloads right now with zero commitment. Try OCI for free. Head to oracle.com theo that's oracle.com theo dude, let's listen to real quick to Michael White. I'll play that. Let's, let's, let's.

[Steve Rinella]

Yeah, he's good.

[Theo Von]

Let's listen to him.

[Steve Rinella]

He's gonna make some turkey noises. Yeah, I think that's a good idea. I like him, man. He's a fun guy.

[Theo Von]

Oh, he's so great, dude. I get to spend. We go to a summer camp together every year with him and his family and it's hilarious.

[Steve Rinella]

I would say Volume control and going from soft to aggressive, if that's what you want to call it. Or louder. It's important to find a diaphragm. If you get those tones and you can control that, it don't have to sound perfect. My opinion on turkey calling rhythm is more important than specifically the sound of it.

[Theo Von]

That's what I've been saying. That's what I've been saying, dude. I think one thing that would be cool. Wonder if he could put together almost like a animal call orchestra where it was like. You had this sort of like. Like an orchestra pit. And he. And somebody was like the conductor and they had all the animals. It'd be kind of neat.

[Steve Rinella]

We got. I was hip on this idea for a while. We didn't take as far as I wanted to, but what I wanted to do is I got a directional. We bought a directional mic. And I wanted to build a catalog of. I didn't know what I was. I never thought about what I was going to do with it. We actually bought the damn thing. I wanted to build a catalog of animal noises.

[Theo Von]

Yeah.

[Steve Rinella]

So we picked up different noises and then kind of abandoned it, I think, because I didn't know what. We didn't. Hadn't really decided what we're gonna do with them.

[Theo Von]

I could think of something.

[Steve Rinella]

I just wanted them.

[Theo Von]

Oh, yeah.

[Steve Rinella]

Like a great catalog of animal noises that people wouldn't know.

[Theo Von]

You could do a couple things with them that come into my mind. One of them is you could the orchestra. Yeah. Create to have that. A second one is people that are deceased. Put a special headset on them. It guarantees It'll play for 30 years or whatever. They get to have that. All the best animals of the world on the way out. A third idea. I think it could be neat. Would be if you created. Oh, this would be cool. You create one of those things. I shouldn't say it'd be cool. Who knows? Might be horrible. I don't think it's that great. I'm gonna say it. What it is, is it's like one of those white noise machines. But it's all the fucking animals, dude. And it's Steve. Rinella's fucking Come Sleep With Steve. It's called.

[Steve Rinella]

That sounds a great thing, man. I gotta check with my wife on that shit.

[Theo Von]

Oh, no. Every now and then. Every now and then in the distance of the. You hear Steve's wife be like, it better just be you in there. But that's what. It's a special machine. And it's all. And Then every now and then, you can go to different regions of the world and hear them. You go to Africa.

[Steve Rinella]

You go, sleep with me in Africa.

[Theo Von]

Yeah, sleep.

[Steve Rinella]

Sleep me in Asia, whatever.

[Theo Von]

Yeah, sleep with me in Alabama. And every now and then, there's just some country dude, he's like, oh, something's I'm a go fuck one of these things or whatever. You're like, whoa, whoa, buddy. But it's just like a unique way to fall asleep at night.

[Steve Rinella]

Are you hip to the. Are you hip to the app, Merlin?

[Theo Von]

I've not even heard of it.

[Steve Rinella]

Yeah, you should check it out. I've had people that design the app on.

[Theo Von]

On your podcast.

[Steve Rinella]

Yeah.

[Theo Von]

So is your podcast called Meat Eaters too?

[Steve Rinella]

It's called the Meat Eater Podcast.

[Theo Von]

Meteor podcast.

[Steve Rinella]

So when you're out in your art, your yard, and you hear birds off in the distance anywhere, and you open it up, it just listens and tells you what birds tells you what it. It's a phenomenal app. The reason I bring that up is it's what's. What is harmful to people's self esteem is when you're turkey hunting and you're making. You're mimicking the noises. So we'll open up Merlin and be like, oh, is it picking you up or not, bro? Is it. Is it throwing? Is it saying there's a turkey over there? Is it not saying there's a turkey over there? Yeah, like, I got friends that are very. That put enormous amounts of energy into learning how to mimic the call of a barred owl.

[Theo Von]

Really?

[Steve Rinella]

Yeah.

[Theo Von]

Like, you mean those. What is it?

[Steve Rinella]

They go like, I got a roll. Yeah, you do it loud as.

[Theo Von]

Okay, hold on. Just give me a second.

[Steve Rinella]

Give me. They. Yeah, like, yeah, I'm not good at it. Southerners are good at it. It's a very Southern thing. Like, yeah, there's like, Yankees that can do it, but they're not gonna do it. Like a Southerner.

[Theo Von]

The barred owl. Pull it up. I just want to get a gander at it. Sorry. You had it up.

[Steve Rinella]

Yeah, pull up Clay Nukem. Say Clay Nukem Bardow.

[Theo Von]

Or.

[Steve Rinella]

Unless you want to hear the real thing.

[Theo Von]

No, I want to start with this man.

[Steve Rinella]

Well, he's a Southerner.

[Theo Von]

Oh, yeah, he is.

[Steve Rinella]

Oh, this is me and Clay. You see Clay and the birds, right? Anyhow, definitely, dude.

[Theo Von]

You got to stay in school, brother.

[Steve Rinella]

What's.

[Theo Von]

What's the.

[Steve Rinella]

What is fun is to open up.

[Theo Von]

Merlin and see who's got it and.

[Steve Rinella]

Then get off a ways.

[Theo Von]

Yeah.

[Steve Rinella]

And so one of my buddies who is a Yankee. He's a northerner, buddy. Seth. Like, he's a real good owl caller.

[Theo Von]

Yeah.

[Steve Rinella]

And it started realizing when he realized that Merlin, like, when he realized that Merlin wasn't picking him up, wasn't putting him down as a barred owl. He, like, had, like, an emotional crisis and started redoing his and working on his. Until Merlin. He had to change his stuff until he could figure out why Merlin wasn't grabbing him.

[Theo Von]

Look, all I'm telling you is that ain't registering on Merlin. That's all. Look, I'm gonna shoot you straight. That's crazy. It's also crazy to be. I actually now this. I really understand wanting to be this animal and my being an owl. Yeah. Wanting to really get into their head. And we had. I've had a little bit of owl, actually. My sister's husband cooked two owls during Thanksgiving.

[Steve Rinella]

Well, he might want to keep. He might want to keep that more secret.

[Theo Von]

Yeah, I don't know if he did it. He. I mean, if there. I haven't seen him in a long time. That's what I'll tell you. But he. It's not a lot of meat. I'll tell you that. It's kind of like that. Like, you see those women in Little House on the Prairie. A lot of skirts, not a lot of meat under there. You know?

[Steve Rinella]

That's a good way to put it.

[Theo Von]

You think it's going to be Philadelphia under there, but it's a little more Arizona when you get under there.

[Steve Rinella]

See, I'd tell you a good story my father told me, but I don't. And he's dead, so they're not gonna do anything bad. I will tell it. I don't know why my father did this. This.

[Theo Von]

Okay.

[Steve Rinella]

I don't know why my father did this, but it talks about that like a lot of skirt, not much.

[Theo Von]

Not much meat.

[Steve Rinella]

Yeah. So obviously, my. My father was from another time. My dad was born in 19. He had me when he's old. He was born in the Great Depression.

[Theo Von]

Oh, wow. Like 1910.

[Steve Rinella]

No, not that late. He. He. He was a World War II veteran.

[Theo Von]

Oh, wow. Anyhow, thank you, Mr. Ranella, for your service.

[Steve Rinella]

He tells a story about sitting deer hunting with his bow. And somehow. Oh, there he is on the right there. He tells the story about sitting deer hunting with his bow and deciding to shoot owl with his bow. And he says he does, and he, like, feels like he hits the owl. I can't account for why he would decide to do this. Is not something I would Do I don't condone it. Shoots the owl and like hits it dead center. But he said the owl doesn't even change tune.

[Theo Von]

Wow.

[Steve Rinella]

Cuz he realized just. It's all feathers.

[Theo Von]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's all brazier, baby. No tit.

[Steve Rinella]

That was his only owl hunting story and he didn't. The owl escaped unharmed.

[Theo Von]

Yeah.

[Steve Rinella]

Look at these, bro.

[Theo Von]

What are we doing?

[Steve Rinella]

What are we doing? Oh yeah, there. Yeah, there you go.

[Theo Von]

If you don't think all of the. The world is a scop. Look at this mfer, homie. Look at this thing right here.

[Steve Rinella]

You know, you want to know a current controversy about the barred owl. The noise that Clay was just making there and the owls are making. Okay, do you remember back to. Do you remember back to the kind of culture war issue around spotted owls? Like logging in the Pacific Northwest and the spotted owl.

[Theo Von]

Well, I think they were tearing down their habitats. Right, exactly.

[Steve Rinella]

And the spotted owl became. This happens to animals now and then. Where a spotted owl stopped being an owl and kind of became like a cultural emblem.

[Theo Von]

Oh yeah. Like when they put them on Frontier Airlines, like on their wing.

[Steve Rinella]

Yeah, sure. It'd be like, like, like wolves occupy this now. Like there's wolves as flesh and blood creatures and then there's sort of the. The symbolism of the wolf.

[Theo Von]

Right.

[Steve Rinella]

So the spotted owl became a symbolism of land use, you know, like land use controversy.

[Theo Von]

Okay.

[Steve Rinella]

Meaning that yet loggers in the Pacific Northwest trying to produce, harvest, you know, harvest timber products. But there's this owl, they're trying. This endangered species, this owl that they're trying to protect. So the owl becomes this kind of like proxy symbol for whether we cut trees or not.

[Theo Von]

I remember even in Dumb and Dumber, they had the. Ben went to the bank where they were raising money for the spotted owl.

[Steve Rinella]

You know, so it became like a cultural thing. Barred owls are one of those species like Canada geese, whitetail deer crows that do really well that. That they benefit off people. Right. Like the more people there are in more places, the more beneficial it is to that owl. That owl does well in disturbed ecosystems. They like people. They'll hang out above your house, they'll hunt in your yard. Like we don't bother them. Other things hate people. But this thing is gradually happening is barred owls, which were historically more in the eastern U.S. yeah. Are colonizing the. The spotted owls range and displacing spotted owls. So there's this big push and there was even federal money. I don't know where it stands right now. I think the current administration was Rolling it back. There was a push where they were going to go kill right there. They were going to cull 470,000 barred owls in the pacific northwest to keep.

[Theo Von]

Them from migrating to. To try to save the spotted owl.

[Steve Rinella]

The spotted owl. And I think they might have pulled that money, I'm not sure. Oh, but just a little, like, you know, like wildlife politics. Like, there's always wildlife politics brewing, you know.

[Theo Von]

Yeah.

[Steve Rinella]

And so there's this kind of thing, like, does it make sense, you know, that you ask the question. And it's not like people are moving them in trucks. They're moving on their own. So if, like, if this bird is getting there on his own nature. Yeah. He's getting there on his own, under his own wing, spreading across. Is that. Can you really call it that? That's like colonization, or is it just that it's natural? Like, throughout your 45 years of life, raccoons have gone north and West. Throughout your 45 years of life, opossums have gone north and west. Barred owls have gone west all on their own. It's human in that they're sort of like our crop fields, our clearings, our developments don't bother them. They're beneficial to them.

[Theo Von]

Right. So we don't have an effect really on it.

[Steve Rinella]

Yeah. So, like, it's happening and they're talking about, you know, dusting off that many, you know, dusting off that many owls and I don't know.

[Theo Von]

I mean, that's interesting. Yeah. It's like, how much do you want to mess up with what mother nature is doing? You know, it says right here. Yes. Funding for the barred owl removal initiative was recently pulled. In July 2025, the Trump administration terminated three critical federal grants totaling about 1.1 million, which were essential for launching the u. S. Fish and wildlife services plan a coal barred owls across California, Oregon and Washington. Who was going to do that? Were they just going to send some? How would they go about that, do you think?

[Steve Rinella]

I applied for one of those gigs one time they were doing. I just thought it was kind of interesting. There's another animal that lives that is in more places than it was historically, the mountain goat. And there was this project one time to. To they were trying to get mountain goats out of Olympic. Was it? No, no, no. Not of olympic national park. I can't remember.

[Theo Von]

Pull up a mountain goat.

[Steve Rinella]

It's a great animal.

[Theo Von]

Now, you do not see a lot of these around here.

[Steve Rinella]

No, no, no. But they were looking for teams of people to go do this. Mountain goat, of course, they were. And so we made it.

[Theo Von]

We made, like professional wrestlers, dude.

[Steve Rinella]

We made a team to. We made a team to do the Mountain Goat Coal. And our team was not selected because a part of the thing was you. They wanted you to keep your mouth shut. And I think that they looked and they're like, this guy's not gonna keep his mouth shut about that. He's like a writer. So they're like. I think they saw through me. And I. And I had a. I had a crack commando team put together.

[Theo Von]

Yeah.

[Steve Rinella]

But didn't get the nod.

[Theo Von]

Oh.

[Steve Rinella]

Because I think that they could see that. Like. Like, let's say you're a writer and you're trying to get in the military. They're like, yeah, I got a feeling this guy's gonna. This ain't patriotism.

[Theo Von]

Yeah.

[Steve Rinella]

Do you know what I'm saying? So I didn't get the. I didn't get the job.

[Theo Von]

It's almost like Armageddon where that team gets chosen to go save the world or whatever. You guys should have got the chance, brother. That'd be a great movie.

[Steve Rinella]

I had a crack commando team put together.

[Theo Von]

Really? Who'd you get on? You get any diversity on it? How do you attack?

[Steve Rinella]

No, I didn't do. No, this was before dei. No, this is.

[Theo Von]

You didn't do all that.

[Steve Rinella]

Now that I review it in my mind, it was decidedly. It was decidedly. It was a. It was a group of guys that you could mistake for me.

[Theo Von]

Okay.

[Steve Rinella]

That was my mountain goatee. Yeah. They're gonna do the same. Like, they're fixing to do the same thing in Grand Teton.

[Theo Von]

In the Grand Teton National Park.

[Steve Rinella]

Yeah. Because mountain goats are. Mountain goats are largely in the coastal ranges, historically.

[Theo Von]

God, they're beautiful, aren't they?

[Steve Rinella]

Oh, yeah. So you got like. Like Idaho, Colorado, Utah. They all have non native mountain goat populations.

[Theo Von]

Oh, yeah.

[Steve Rinella]

South Dakota has a non native mountain goat population.

[Theo Von]

And when you say non native, that means that they just ended up there. They weren't. They were from there.

[Steve Rinella]

They were drove in. Ah, they were drove in. They were brought in. You wouldn't believe, like, if you're interested in animals, man, you wouldn't believe how much humans have reshuffled the deck of.

[Theo Von]

How animals exist, of where they're like.

[Steve Rinella]

Of distribution of animals in the world.

[Theo Von]

Or mostly in America.

[Steve Rinella]

World to. Yeah. We have a. Like, our country hosts African species in certain. I mean, totally wild feral animals. We have African species running around in our country. We have Asiatic species running around in our country. We've just completely Reshuffled the deck. Like I was saying, like, at. You know, historically, there was turkeys in 34 states. You can hunt turkeys in every state but Alaska now.

[Theo Von]

Wow.

[Steve Rinella]

Like, we're always. We, like, we've been very good at moving it around. And we used to have the ambition of moving it all around. Now we have the ambition of trying to put it back the way we found it.

[Theo Von]

Yeah.

[Steve Rinella]

But for a while, the ambition was to, like, I want more the merrier.

[Theo Von]

Spread it everywhere.

[Steve Rinella]

They just cut loose just to see what would happen. Yeah, all the time, man. Just move it around, see what happens.

[Theo Von]

That's bonkers, man. Where is Grand Teton National Park?

[Steve Rinella]

It's b. It's. I shouldn't say. It's basically Yellowstone National Park.

[Theo Von]

Do you have a place in America that you feel has the strongest connection to nature? Kind of to just pivot a little bit? Like, do you like, where you feel, like, the most, like, innately connected? Is that a weird question? Kind of.

[Steve Rinella]

No, it's not a weird question.

[Theo Von]

Because I know that, like, some of the natives had, like, the Black Hills and stuff like that in the Dakotas, like, they had places where they felt, like, extremely connected.

[Steve Rinella]

Oh, yeah. You mean, like. Like places that had that. That had a spiritual, like an aura.

[Theo Von]

Or something to them?

[Steve Rinella]

Yeah, sure.

[Theo Von]

I just wondered if it was.

[Steve Rinella]

Yeah. I can't pretend I can't. Like, I don't know what that felt like. I don't know what that looked like. I have things that mean a lot. I have places that mean a lot to me. I have places that mean a lot to me from a standpoint of personal experiences that have happened in certain places. I had a place for a long time. I told. Like, I told my kids. I was like, man, if I die. Like I had originally said, if I die, I want. I was like, this is gonna be hard to pull off. But, like, in a perfect world, I would have my body, like, dumped there.

[Theo Von]

Oh, yeah.

[Steve Rinella]

Just hidden away somewhere to be eaten and my bones strewn about by bears.

[Theo Von]

Yeah.

[Steve Rinella]

Like, I thought that seemed like a cool idea.

[Theo Von]

It is kind of neat.

[Steve Rinella]

Yeah. There's. There's a number. There's a number of people that. Crazy Horse, his friends took his body and put it somewhere. They know. They don't know where it is, really.

[Theo Von]

Has anybody gone?

[Steve Rinella]

Edward Abbey, the writer Edward Iblis.

[Theo Von]

So Crazy Horse, they hid his body.

[Steve Rinella]

His friends took his body. He was killed in Nebraska. They took his body and put it in a crevice somewhere. They don't know where it is.

[Theo Von]

And no one's found it yet at.

[Steve Rinella]

Abby's body was out.

[Theo Von]

Ed. Abby from.

[Steve Rinella]

You know. You ever hear Monkey Wrench Gang? He wrote Monkey Wrench Gang. Not from Desert Solitaire. He was an. He was an environmental odd couple, huh? No, no, he was an environmental warrior. You should read up on Ed Abbey. Yeah, he's a. He's like a bit. He's a big figure in defending the desert in a novelist. Anyways, his friends took him and they dumped him.

[Theo Von]

And they don't tell anybody where.

[Steve Rinella]

I won't tell anybody where.

[Theo Von]

That's cool. That sounds like the way to go.

[Steve Rinella]

So I wanted to have that kind of. I wanted to have a program like that and that. Where I wanted. It was a spot that had. Was a place that had, like, that I had a deep. What to me passes as a sort of spiritual connection to that place. Then there's places I just like, because there's like. I like. I love being in Alaska. I spent a month or so in Alaska. It's kind of throughout different times of the year. I spent a month or so in Alaska every year. I love Alaska. What I like about Alaska is it's, you know, it's a big place, but there's a lot of places where you can just kind of picture what time was a lot. Like, you can kind of picture what things were a long time ago.

[Theo Von]

Got it.

[Steve Rinella]

Yeah. So it's like. Because I think if you've. As a. As an outdoorsman, as someone that likes nature, oftentimes you find yourself trying to imagine, like, trying to imagine a long time ago.

[Theo Von]

Right.

[Steve Rinella]

There's. There's something like. There's some kind of continuity thing. You know, people have been out on the landscape living, hunting and fishing and living off the land for. Since the beginning of human time. And so naturally, your mind goes to, like, what. How did other people experience this? Like, how did. What. What was the experience of other people doing these activities in these places throughout time?

[Theo Von]

Yeah.

[Steve Rinella]

So I like spots where you can kind of picture it. Right. It's still. You can picture it. And there's a lot of places in Alaska. You can go there and be like. You can feel it.

[Theo Von]

Oh, yeah.

[Steve Rinella]

You know, I mean, you can feel it.

[Theo Von]

Yeah. Like, it feels so untouched by so many, like, just a lot of other energy and stuff.

[Steve Rinella]

Yeah. And it winds up being like. You can imagine. Like, you could go. There's places you go and you can imagine, like, man, some dude standing here. 10. Not 10, let's do whatever. Some dude standing here 7,000 years ago. Beheld like, however he perceived it, whatever his ideas of God were, you know, whatever his allegiances were, he. This is kind of what it looked like.

[Theo Von]

Right.

[Steve Rinella]

You know, it's what it looked like. And those places mean a lot to me to be able to be like, man. Like, you could stand here, you know, at all these points in time and be like.

[Theo Von]

It's just.

[Steve Rinella]

You can just imagine. It makes this continuity similar because a thing that I'm very interested in is and professionally and personally very interested in, like, the experiences of. Of. Of. Of other people who. Who had aspects of a lifestyle that I live today. Like, I'm always fascinated by that. That's why I could give a. About Antarctica, because there's no human history there. Right. So that's the cool thing about Alaska. My brother's a fisheries biologist in Alaska, and he had a really interesting point that he made to me. He's like, if you think about the conservation, like, conservation efforts, environmental efforts in the lower 48, we are in, like, someday what we're doing might be regarded as a recovery phase. We're trying to, like, fix things. We broke a lot of things. Late 1800s, early 1900s. For decades, you know, we broke stuff. And so for the most part now, when someone talks about conservation, oftentimes it's like fixing broken. Bringing the turkey back. Fixing broken.

[Theo Von]

Right, right. Cleaning up rivers, Cleaning out. Yeah.

[Steve Rinella]

Like, we're like, we broke a bunch of. Like, we built a bunch of dams in the Pacific Northwest and killed all these salmon runs. Now we're trying to fix all the. We broke.

[Theo Von]

Yeah.

[Steve Rinella]

And so for most of, like, most conservation work is oftentimes like, fixing that we up. He was saying his work in a lot. He's been in Alaska forever. His work in Alaska at times is like, they're still doing. They're still trying to describe what's there. Meaning there are salmon runs. They'll go look at salmon runs. People know their salmon there. They've been fishing them for thousands of years. But no one's ever went and sort of, like, scientifically described the salmon run. There are rivers where no one's gone and scientifically described what lives in the river.

[Theo Von]

Got it.

[Steve Rinella]

Right. So they're still in. They're still in a phase of just trying to, like, write down what's there.

[Theo Von]

Yeah.

[Steve Rinella]

And we're in a phase of just trying to fix all of our broken shit.

[Theo Von]

Right.

[Steve Rinella]

So in that way, Alaska's cool.

[Theo Von]

Right. Because it's still, like, in such an early process of being affected by humans.

[Steve Rinella]

Yeah. And if we Play our cards right, then we'll.

[Theo Von]

What we learn here, we won't have to go through the same thing.

[Steve Rinella]

Yeah, we play our cards right. When someone talks about building a big dam, you know, on the Yukon or whatever, you. You might look and be like, man, we're spending a lot of it down in the. What they call in Alaska what they call the outside. And the outside. We're spending a lot of time and energy trying to fix all the. We broke by doing that. Just so heads up as you think about.

[Theo Von]

Right.

[Steve Rinella]

Your plans just.

[Theo Von]

Hey, guys, do you have a part of. I know you've traveled extensively. Do you have a place that you feel like is. Like, is the most dangerous for people to go? Is that really a fair question? I mean, guess every place is dangerous, depending on what your behaviors are.

[Steve Rinella]

Yeah, there's. It's. This is something I think about, talk about a fair bit. There's a lot of, like, there's places where there's a high level of perceived danger.

[Theo Von]

Okay.

[Steve Rinella]

The thing I always try to point out, if my wife thinks I'm doing, like, my wife often thinks I'm putting a lot of risk on my kids or doing too much, too risky as shit with my kids because they're going.

[Theo Von]

To try to do it or, you.

[Steve Rinella]

Know, that I'm going to hurt them or drown them or whatever, you know.

[Theo Von]

Oh, yeah.

[Steve Rinella]

Like, she's always afraid I'm going to something like that. I. My recklessness will lead to my kids getting messed up.

[Theo Von]

Right. Why do they need safety gear for a Christmas every year if you're not trying to do something bad to them, Steve.

[Steve Rinella]

Oh, there's one of my little kids. No, that's not my little kid. That's my friend's kid.

[Theo Von]

Yeah. You don't even know whose kid it is.

[Steve Rinella]

That's my kid.

[Theo Von]

Okay.

[Steve Rinella]

Well, she's 12 now.

[Theo Von]

Daddy's future hunting buddy.

[Steve Rinella]

She has much. She has much more hair now.

[Theo Von]

I believe that. I'm just saying the shirt is lobbying for a certain type of behavior in the future.

[Steve Rinella]

She is my hunting buddy now.

[Theo Von]

Dude, that's awesome.

[Steve Rinella]

Yeah, we don't show pictures of our kids much anymore, but they're all really. Except my older one anyhow. What the hell is I talking about? Oh, she's always afraid I'm going to drown them or whatever. Oh, yeah, Reasonably so. But. But I'm always like, man, the most important like, or the most dangerous thing. This is me. Like, you're my wife, not me.

[Theo Von]

All right.

[Steve Rinella]

The most dangerous thing that's going to happen Is us driving to the airport.

[Theo Von]

Sure, Steve. Look, sign the papers, okay. Sign the papers and you can do whatever you want. Okay. That's what my attorney said.

[Steve Rinella]

It's.

[Theo Von]

Sorry, I was trying to role play.

[Steve Rinella]

A little, but that was good rope. You'd have to have more time with her, you know.

[Theo Von]

Yeah. I should have also went into it a little bit more. All right, let's try it again.

[Steve Rinella]

She just didn't meet her.

[Theo Von]

Let's try it again.

[Steve Rinella]

But she, she brings up. So there's like high levels of perceived danger, but like. But then there's like reality. Meaning driving down. Driving down a highway is hazardous.

[Theo Von]

Yeah.

[Steve Rinella]

Like highway travels hazardous. Flying in single engine. We do a lot of flying in single engine aircraft.

[Theo Von]

That's hazardous.

[Steve Rinella]

Flying in single engine aircraft is like a legitimate occupational hazard. But where people's minds go. People's minds go to getting attacked by wild animals.

[Theo Von]

Right.

[Steve Rinella]

Because you people don't want it. Like, they're not thinking about that. You're going to go in like when you go into a remote environment. Exposure. Yeah. Exposure is like far more dangerous than wild animals, but it's not falling into a hole. Sure. It's not fun to think about.

[Theo Von]

Right, right.

[Steve Rinella]

It doesn't, it doesn't occupy any. There's no intellectual energy. You can't put like intellectual or emotional energy into you thinking about exposure.

[Theo Von]

It doesn't have the same pr.

[Steve Rinella]

Instead you're like, well, there's wild animals lurking in the bushes.

[Theo Von]

Right.

[Steve Rinella]

And so people are afraid of things. See, I feel like I'm. I want to seem like I'm hacking out my, my wife, I love her.

[Theo Von]

My wife carries pepper spray.

[Steve Rinella]

My wife will sometimes carry pepper spray, of course. Because there's black bears around.

[Theo Von]

Oh, yeah. I've been in some neighborhoods.

[Steve Rinella]

But you, anyone in this country, most people in the major cities of this country, they're all within a 40 to hour drive of a black bear.

[Theo Von]

Right.

[Steve Rinella]

You're much closer to black bears right now.

[Theo Von]

Yeah.

[Steve Rinella]

Okay. But you're not sitting here with pepper spray.

[Theo Von]

Oh, I see.

[Steve Rinella]

So why would you go walk. Like, why. When you. Why does she feel I'm like, you know, like you have black bears that come into the outskirts of New York. Right. New Jersey has the densest black bear population in the country.

[Theo Von]

Yes.

[Steve Rinella]

And the densest human population does. Yeah. So like they don't all. When they're golfing, they don't carry pepper spray.

[Theo Von]

Right. It's not like you see Trump out there with pepper spray and a pocket.

[Steve Rinella]

Why does my wife want to have Pepper spray?

[Theo Von]

Yeah.

[Steve Rinella]

For black bears. Like, black bears don't matter. They're not dangerous, but they're perceived as dangerous. And certain environments make people feel like now they're in danger, danger. But golfers in New Jersey aren't. We're carrying pepper spray.

[Theo Von]

Right.

[Steve Rinella]

Though they have. Probably have bears. If you're golfing in. In some semi rural New Jersey environment, you're within hundreds of yards of bears.

[Theo Von]

Right.

[Steve Rinella]

But they're not giving their energy to thinking about bears. But you put someone at like a trailhead in the woods, and all of a sudden they got bears on their mind.

[Theo Von]

Yeah.

[Steve Rinella]

So dangerous would be like, I spent. I spent a month in Africa this summer, and we saw a black mamba, a snake called. You know, that's the most. That's the deadliest snake. Like, they just kill you when they get you. The guy we were with, like, you'll never see one. Then we saw one. So all we talked about was black mambas.

[Theo Von]

Yeah.

[Steve Rinella]

He didn't bite anybody.

[Theo Von]

Right.

[Steve Rinella]

But all of a sudden, like, anytime I sat down once I saw that son of a. I saw a puff adder, a black mamba and a cobra.

[Theo Von]

Damn.

[Steve Rinella]

Okay.

[Theo Von]

What is a puff adder?

[Steve Rinella]

Oh, he's a bad mother liquor man. Pull up how he gets around. Pull up how he gets around.

[Theo Von]

A puff adder.

[Steve Rinella]

Yeah. Watch how he gets around. You think of a snake doing a serpentine movement, for sure. Well, check his ass out. Pull up, Pull up. Him getting around. Oh, he just wiggles along like a. Like a centipede.

[Theo Von]

Shorty bay. Got that. He not even look at that.

[Steve Rinella]

No, he don't need to do.

[Theo Von]

He doesn't even leave a footprint.

[Steve Rinella]

You don't need.

[Theo Von]

Oh, so that's what you call cutting corners right there. That's the kind of employee that I need.

[Steve Rinella]

Dude, that dude just. He's got little. His scales just walk, man. Yeah.

[Theo Von]

That's crazy.

[Steve Rinella]

I don't know if this is true. You want to hear something? They told me about that thing this Kenyan dude told me. He told me that. I don't know if it's true, but it's just a great. It's a wonderful detail. He told me that puff adder. So he strikes so fast, we just caught one crossing the road and got out and mess with a little bit. Not up close, but distant. Mess with it. That puff adder strikes so fast. This guy was telling me this could be total lore. Don't even look it up because I don't want you to refute it because it's too Cool. He says that he can hit a balloon twice. He can hit a balloon twice before it pops, which I don't even know what that means, but doesn't it sound cool? It sounds, you know, like you can fight.

[Theo Von]

Yeah.

[Steve Rinella]

For the balloon deflates. I don't know.

[Theo Von]

Oh, yeah.

[Steve Rinella]

So he's got, he's got a bad venom. So anyways, we see one of these. We see a black mamba who can cruise around with half of his length up in the air if he's 7 foot, his head when he's cruising through the woods, when he's pissed, his head's at your navel.

[Theo Von]

Damn.

[Steve Rinella]

He's a bad, bad, bad dude.

[Theo Von]

Well, he's got some calves on him. That's what's amazing to me, you know, why do Indian people love with these things? Kill Bill.

[Steve Rinella]

It's a black mamba that kills. That kills. Michael Madsen's character.

[Theo Von]

Is it really?

[Steve Rinella]

Yeah, it's a black mom. Anyhow, so we see this, we see these different critters running around and they're like, you're not gonna get killed by a snake. It's just like, like it doesn't happen.

[Theo Von]

Right. But it feels like it's gonna happen.

[Steve Rinella]

But all of a sudden instead of me thinking like, oh, I might get like a. Some amoeba from drinking the water or like, who knows, or a mosquito born.

[Theo Von]

Pathogen, all that's out the window.

[Steve Rinella]

Instead everywhere I look, all of us, me and my other guys I was with, we didn't take a step do without being like. Because all of a sudden in our head was the perceived danger. Meanwhile, you're with all these people that are born and raised there. None of them's dead, right?

[Theo Von]

Yeah, they're doing fine. Some of them have some emotional issues or whatever, but they're overall, they're.

[Steve Rinella]

Well, they're not all dead for.

[Theo Von]

From snakes.

[Steve Rinella]

It's just that's where as humans. Oh, that's where the head. Your head goes to like whatever said.

[Theo Von]

The best advertising and probably whatever's most recently been seen, those sorts of things.

[Steve Rinella]

So when you say like the most dangerous place, like to an outsider, the Tanzanian bush felt dangerous for a reason. That's probably not true.

[Theo Von]

Right.

[Steve Rinella]

It felt dangerous because one day we.

[Theo Von]

Saw a black mama and then the Tasmanian devil too.

[Steve Rinella]

Well, he doesn't live there for sure.

[Theo Von]

Yeah, yeah.

[Steve Rinella]

Tasmanian tiger, right?

[Theo Von]

Yeah.

[Steve Rinella]

Tasmanian devils. Yeah.

[Theo Von]

I'm thinking of Tanzania, I think, or something. I don't know what I'm.

[Steve Rinella]

Oh, no, no, no, you're right. Yeah. But no, Tanzania and The Tasmanian. That's the. Nate. The island of Tasmania.

[Theo Von]

Yeah.

[Steve Rinella]

You know, Tanzania comes from tan. Comes from Zanzibar, combining with Tanganyika.

[Theo Von]

Oh, yeah.

[Steve Rinella]

When those two countries came together, they were called Tanzania.

[Theo Von]

So Tanzanica doesn't exist anymore. It's now Tanzania.

[Steve Rinella]

Tanzanica doesn't.

[Theo Von]

Zanzibar does.

[Steve Rinella]

But Zan. The Zanzibar archipelago was rolled into Tanzanica to become Tanzania. I'm subject matter expert. I spent a month there.

[Theo Von]

Did you really? A lot of women will go to Zanzibar to meet men. Kind of African men. A lot of women in their 40s and 50s.

[Steve Rinella]

Is that true?

[Theo Von]

Yeah, that's what I know about the migration or whatever it's called. But I. Or it's first. I don't want to say it's for sex, but I think it. People say it is.

[Steve Rinella]

I don't think that you're going there for that. It's pretty buttoned up there, is it? It's pretty.

[Theo Von]

But no, I don't think it's, like, illegal. I think it's. They go there and it's sort of a popular space for recording of those of African men and women who are kind of divorcees, really. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because my buddy went there and he was like, dude, it's not for me. It wasn't for him.

[Steve Rinella]

See, my subject matter expertise is crumbling. But I'll point out, I was only there one week.

[Theo Von]

Yeah.

[Steve Rinella]

So I only absorbed so much.

[Theo Von]

And you don't fit either one of the parties that were. That are mating there. So I think I brought my own.

[Steve Rinella]

Mate with me, man.

[Theo Von]

Oh, there you go. Then packages by Expedia. You were made to occasionally take the hard route to the top of the Eiffel Tower.

[Steve Rinella]

We were made to easily bundle your trip.

[Theo Von]

Expedia made to travel flight.

[Steve Rinella]

Inclusive packages are at all protected.

[Theo Von]

Look, we know that a lot of fellas enter the room. Wiener first baby. Wiener first baby. The shark fin, baby. That's how I am, baby. And bluechew is now available to put that. Put the. Put the the in your body and your shark fin boy, look out. It's landing on the beach. Blue Chew. It's a cheat code for your crotch. Stronger, harder, longer lasting. Like someone gave your downstairs a pep talk and a gym membership, and now you're upstairs. Guys, it's not just about performance, though. This is about legacy or third legacy, you know. And we've got a special deal for our listeners. As always, get your first month of bluechew free. Just use promo code. Theo at checkout and pay five bucks for shipping. That's it. Join BlueChew's mission to upgrade humanity one thrust at a time. Head to BlueChew.com for details and safety info. And big thanks to BlueChew for sponsoring the podcast. Everybody knows there are things they can do to reduce monthly costs and improve their finances. We all know it. It's just. It's just finding the time to do it. I mean, who has time to go through all their expenses and decide what to trim? Luckily, Rocket Money can relieve some of that stress and help you feel confident in the financial decisions you're making. Rocket Money. It's a personal finance app that helps you find and cancel your unwanted subscriptions, monitors your spending, and helps lower your bills so you can grow your savings. Yep, Rocket Money's 5 million members have saved a total of $500 million in canceled subscriptions, with members saving up to $740 a year when they use all of the app's premium features. Cancel your unwanted subscriptions and reach your financial goals faster with Rocket Money. Go to RocketMoney.com Theo Today, that's RocketMoney.com T H E O RocketMoney.com Theo I'll say this, dude, I remember the first time that I saw a snake. It makes me think of what, like, my perception and everything was like, we're walking. I was with my grandparents or walking, and suddenly I just kind of felt something on my. Like I had some. Just boots were fishing and something wrapped around my leg like that, and it was a snake.

[Steve Rinella]

Really?

[Theo Von]

Yeah. And I was like, oh, my God. I couldn't move. I was so scared. I'd never seen a snake outside. You know, you'd heard about snakes. And I mean, it had just fucking wrapped around just like. It was like. Like my leg was a stripper pole. And this thing had just came to.

[Steve Rinella]

Just fucking grind on you.

[Theo Von]

Just straight out of hell to grind on me, you know? And my grandmother looked at it and she's like. She goes, I remember. She's like, did you summon that? She asked me, because my grandmother was out of her fucking mind. And that's when I knew that it was just going to be a long life right there. I was like, you think? And I looked in her eyes and she thinks I fucking a child that she barely ever even welcomes into town. She finally takes me to catch some bullheads in the fucking Spoon river out.

[Steve Rinella]

Here, and you summoned a serpent.

[Theo Von]

She thinks I'm the fucking Jimmy Baker of fucking of fang.

[Steve Rinella]

What kind of snake it was.

[Theo Von]

I want to say it was. I want to say it was a water moccasin, but that may have just been the lure of me growing up in Louisiana, because I don't know if they have those in Illinois or not, you know?

[Steve Rinella]

No, I don't believe they do.

[Theo Von]

But I worked on a farm in Louisiana, and at lunch break, we would always just walk around. If they had a boat that was turned over, we'd flip it over, and there'd be a water moccasin under it. Every single time, Dude.

[Steve Rinella]

Yeah, that. That's. That's a cool snake. There is a.

[Theo Von]

They were scary, though.

[Steve Rinella]

There's like a. There's an idea, and I kind of buy it. That from. From like, an evolutionary standpoint or we carry this sort of. Like this. I want to preface this by saying I'm not a geneticist.

[Theo Von]

Okay.

[Steve Rinella]

We care. Despite about your impressions, I'm not a geneticist. But that we carry with us this innate. Let's say this sort of genetic marker or whatever, this innate fear of serpents.

[Theo Von]

Yes.

[Steve Rinella]

Do you know what I'm saying? Like, it. Like, it does you well. It. It does you well to be like, stand off. You follow me?

[Theo Von]

A hundred percent.

[Steve Rinella]

Yeah.

[Theo Von]

Oh, dude. I think anybody would be creeped out. There's nothing. Us. Yeah, there's something. So why are we so scared of snakes? Do you know? I want to look.

[Steve Rinella]

Let's look at venomous snakes. There's a.

[Theo Von]

But it feels, dude, when you see.

[Steve Rinella]

They'Re not right, man.

[Theo Von]

And it feels so foreign. Oh, I will say this. We interviewed this blind girl one time, right? And we're just learning about what it's like to be blind and some of, like, the different stuff. And she talked a lot about animals and, like, getting to spend time with animals and the feelings you get. And she says that she doesn't get any feeling from a snake. Like, there's no energy that she gets.

[Steve Rinella]

Really.

[Theo Von]

And that's when I was like, dude, if a snake. Yeah. Tanya. Milo. Milo. Vic. That's when I knew if the. If a blind. Don't even like a snake. I don't like a snake.

[Steve Rinella]

Yeah. That's a great idea to interview someone where you can just get right in, because then you can ask all the questions. You would be not. You'd ask all the questions. You remember. Remember Howard Stern? He used to have a show where he'd have a panel of black guys that white dudes could ask questions to.

[Theo Von]

Oh, that's great.

[Steve Rinella]

You know, all like. Like, it was. Like. It was. I can't remember what he called. It was like, Ask a Black Man.

[Theo Von]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And now they. Yeah, it was called Ask a Black.

[Steve Rinella]

I can't remember what this stick was. But you just have dudes volunteer to come.

[Theo Von]

That's what we need.

[Steve Rinella]

Like, idiotic white guys could be like, hey, you know. Yeah. So it's an interesting interview format to be able to have a person come and say, like, I will now entertain all your dumbass questions that you wonder but don't ask.

[Theo Von]

Yeah.

[Steve Rinella]

And that. That are like. That I get sick of, but I'm gonna sit here and indulge you for an hour, and you can be like, well, what do you see? Yeah, you know.

[Theo Von]

Yeah. She said that a lot of it was, like, memorizing patterns. Like, when you're going somewhere. Like, the more you go there, the easier it is. Like, she said a lot of times it felt like she was playing, like, a video game in her head. Like, just remembering, like, almost as if you're, like, controlling somebody through a video game, that. That's kind of how she would, like, guide herself. I thought it was pretty interesting. I should do it again soon.

[Steve Rinella]

No, that's a really good. That's a really good interview deal. Because. Because she probably, like, generally going about her life, probably can't stand people. You know, people staring at her, wondering. Ask her the same dumb over. So to be like, I'm just going to sit here and just do it.

[Theo Von]

Yeah, it was great.

[Steve Rinella]

Hit me with it. Hit me with it. You know?

[Theo Von]

Have you ever had taken a blind person on one of your hunts before?

[Steve Rinella]

I know, man, but it's the thing. It's a thing. And I've. And I've had. I had a blind hunter on my podcast one time.

[Theo Von]

Wow.

[Steve Rinella]

To talk about what the experience was. And I had a blind person on.

[Theo Von]

And what is that? Because they're just. I mean, they got to feel like there's no chance when they shoot. Right.

[Steve Rinella]

You know, they had people help. We. We had a. You know what? I'm. You know what? I'm dicking up. I actually just told you something that's not true, because we were gonna. We one time had a paralyzed. We had a paralyzed. We were gonna have a blind hunter.

[Theo Von]

We had a.

[Steve Rinella]

We didn't. Or I don't think we did. We had a fully paralyzed hunter who had to hunt with, like, an automation thing.

[Theo Von]

Wow.

[Steve Rinella]

Took a lot of assistance from his friends, but he had been a hunter, had an accident, and then paralyzed from the neck down, developed a way that he could continue hunting with the help of his friends.

[Theo Von]

Wow, that's pretty cool.

[Steve Rinella]

With a mouth control apparatus. But it took a ton of assistance that. That's who he had on. Well, a point I was going to make about that innate fear of snakes is if you could do time machine. Okay.

[Theo Von]

And you talking time travel.

[Steve Rinella]

I'm gonna. Okay, this would be like a really good question to, to have.

[Theo Von]

Okay.

[Steve Rinella]

The good use of if you had like one pass, one time pass. Here's a thing that would be on my list of. I would be curious about when human, like after the sort of African diaspora and humans started colonizing the whole world, right? The people that came, the people that became the first Americans and came in from Alaska. You always hear about the Bering Land bridge, right? But the land bridge is the size of Texas. It wasn't like a bridge, it was like a landmass. Like people. People colonizing the new world would have been born and died on the Bering Land bridge without thinking that they were going anywhere. They were just living their lives.

[Theo Von]

Got it.

[Steve Rinella]

And slowly spread down.

[Theo Von]

And those are like Inuits, like a, like kind of natives.

[Steve Rinella]

They became native who? The people that became the Inuits. By our understanding, the people that became the Inuits came much later.

[Theo Von]

Got it, okay.

[Steve Rinella]

They came from the Japan and the Aleutians and whatnot. But these like Siberians came into the new world. So by this point you have hundreds of generations, hundreds of generations of people had lived in a snake free environment because they'd lived in the Arctic. Hundreds of generations. And then they're, they're. They slowly, generation to generation to generation, they slowly move down the North American continent. There's two theories that like Alaska, you know, they don't have a snake, right? There's two theories. There's one that they came through the mid continent and maybe emerged down around Edmonton, Alberta, onto the Great Plains. That was a fashionable idea for a long time. The currently fashionable ideas that came down the coast. Okay? So now you've had, you have hundreds of generations of people that would never have seen or experienced a snake.

[Theo Von]

Yeah. And you got snakes down there.

[Steve Rinella]

But all of a sudden they spread southward.

[Theo Von]

Yeah.

[Steve Rinella]

And at some point one of those sons of bitches is out just right. He's out cruising around doing his deal. And there's one laying there that happened like that happened. That happened. If you could take your time machine and go see that guy? See that snake? Did he go or did he jump down and grab it? That was some good time machine shit right there.

[Theo Von]

Well, say this. If he was with someone else when it happened. You have to cut that person's throat immediately, I think, because you would think they have something to do with this. Like they're in on it. Like, that's what I would do.

[Steve Rinella]

You're like, who the summoned this?

[Theo Von]

Yes.

[Steve Rinella]

Yeah.

[Theo Von]

Like, yeah.

[Steve Rinella]

Your distant ancestor.

[Theo Von]

Yeah.

[Steve Rinella]

Summon that snake.

[Theo Von]

Yeah. You would think it was like other. I don't know. But you've probably seen fish, but I don't know. Do you just get that energy?

[Steve Rinella]

Yeah. Like then you would be able to answer the question. That's the way. The one way you'd be able to answer the question. Do humans have some baked in or is it not that?

[Theo Von]

Right. Yeah. You'd have to go all the way back.

[Steve Rinella]

There's probably another way too. You could take a child at birth, buy one, sequester it somewhere.

[Theo Von]

Well, they do that all the time. There's Indian babies playing with snake.

[Steve Rinella]

Yeah. But take one and sequester it so it doesn't get any information from any human beings.

[Theo Von]

Oh, yeah.

[Steve Rinella]

Let it become an old person and throw a snake in that room. Do they jump back? That'd be easier and less expensive than time travel. But it wouldn't be as authentic. And you'd run into like, you'd run into legal.

[Theo Von]

And if they. If they've been alive so long, are they going to not care anymore? Like, I don't.

[Steve Rinella]

Damaged them psychologically and stuff by locking them up in that room. And you know. Yeah.

[Theo Von]

They're like, I don't give a.

[Steve Rinella]

The detractors would be like, yeah, but he was so destroyed psychologically that this is not telling us anything.

[Theo Von]

Right. Yeah.

[Steve Rinella]

I think he's with a. With a. With a.

[Theo Von]

With a. Yeah.

[Steve Rinella]

A person you victimized.

[Theo Von]

Yeah.

[Steve Rinella]

Out of this whimsical scientific study.

[Theo Von]

Oh, yeah. I think at that point you're really looking at the Elizabeth Smart of reptiles kind of vibes, you know, And I don't think that's what we want.

[Steve Rinella]

No, it is going to be a time travel problem.

[Theo Von]

Yeah, we'll go time travel. Well, let's talk about a topic that some people think is kind of controversial. Like, you see a lot of people who will post photos with like, big game. Right. They go and kill like a woolly. Not a woolly mammoth or whatever, but like a.

[Steve Rinella]

A deer.

[Theo Von]

A big, huge deer.

[Steve Rinella]

Big old turkey.

[Theo Von]

Yeah. Yes.

[Steve Rinella]

Rope.

[Theo Von]

Dragon limb hanger. You know, one that's just singing, you know, one in an Allen Iverson jersey. You know what I'm saying? Like a real boss.

[Steve Rinella]

Now I'm getting excited. But they put a Picture of it up.

[Theo Von]

Right. Are there or somebody.

[Steve Rinella]

It's a deer. Some. With eyelashes.

[Theo Von]

Okay, okay, okay.

[Steve Rinella]

Because that's what. That's what.

[Theo Von]

Or lions and stuff like that.

[Steve Rinella]

It's got an eyelash. It's gonna. It. It's emotional for people.

[Theo Von]

Okay, so that's fair. So, yeah, I think I just want to know about some of that. But then also you hear that people put up these, like that some of these animals, they're going to die in the places that they're in. And so for conservation that they kind of sell off kind of tags or lottery for. So anyway, take me into some of that world kind of. If. If you don't mind.

[Steve Rinella]

I thought you were going to get into the ethics of that. You. Of you posing with a dead animal in a picture. But you're talking about like the sort of. The conservation font, like the kind of. There's a perceived conflict or like a incongruity around the notion that. How can you help a species.

[Theo Von]

Yeah.

[Steve Rinella]

By hunting it. Right. How do you help a species by hunting it? Wouldn't that be like that. That's. That would appear to people to be quite illogical. Right. How does killing it help it?

[Theo Von]

Right.

[Steve Rinella]

Is that. Is that.

[Theo Von]

Yeah, I think that's fair. That really kind of boils it down. Yeah.

[Steve Rinella]

Yeah. It's a phenomenal question. I can see why it puzzles people. But you can point to case after case after case of ways in which it. It has worked. We began our conversation around turkeys. Okay. There's a. There's a saying that I like quite a bit. It's not mine, but it's. Success has many fathers, but failure is a bastard's child. Okay. The success in restoring the wild turkey, many people claim parentage of that success, and there was many people that attributed efforts to that success. All these different. Like wherever state you live in, your state has a fish and game agency. Okay. I'll point out that your state's fish and game agency gets the bulk of its funding from people buying hunting and fishing licenses. That's how we fund the agencies that take care of wildlife in the states. So does that. But when they were restoring the wild turkey from nearly being wiped off the continent, okay, The. The main player. The main player that was involved in that nationally is an organization that happens to have their annual convention in Nashville called the National Wild Turkey Federation. Okay. The National Wild Turkey Federation was kind of a through line of the efforts to restore turkeys to North America, to recover the wild turkey, to put the wild turkey back on the ground and all the places where it had been wiped out. The National Wild Turkey Federation is a hunting organization. Okay? So if you went and looked and you said, here's these guys that put enormous amounts of expertise, scientific expertise, enormous amounts of funding, enormous amounts of physical, ex. Physical effort into restoring the wild turkey to where they exceed historic levels, is it fair to go like you just did that so you could hunt turkeys? You'd be like, guilty is charged, right? Guilty is charged.

[Theo Von]

Right?

[Steve Rinella]

There are other. Because like, turkeys are so widely available now.

[Theo Von]

But is that a bad thing? It's not a bad thing.

[Steve Rinella]

It's not. But it's not always even that way. Because for instance, if you look at, there's an organization called the Wild Sheep foundation, it's an American based conservation organization that works to restore, recover, protect wild sheep species, okay? Desert bighorns, Rocky Mountain bighorns, Dall sheep, stone sheep, okay? They work on behalf of wild sheep. I have been hunting my whole life. I apply every year to get a bighorn sheep tag in a half dozen states every year. I have never drawn a bighorn sheep tag. I have never hunted bighorn sheep. It is likely, it is likely that I will die. Okay?

[Theo Von]

Right.

[Steve Rinella]

There's a likelihood I will die and have never had the opportunity to hunt a bighorn sheep. Yet on occasion, I do things to support the Wild Sheep Foundation. So what am I guilty of? Like, I aspire to hunt a bighorn sheep.

[Theo Von]

Yeah.

[Steve Rinella]

I recognize them as like an integral part of the western landscape. I want to see more of them around. I'm a hunter. I would hunt one if I could. I probably can't, but I want to see them back in their place. There are many, many conservation organizations, the most impactful, like wildlife conservation organizations that do real work on the ground. Not talking about lobbying, okay. I'm not talking about like, you know, I'm talking about like the kind of work where you're like putting effort on the ground, you're putting animals on the ground, you're proving habitat on the ground, right? You're helping migratory animals, whatever. That comes from hunters, that comes from hunting based organizations.

[Theo Von]

So you're saying that in this country, most of the wildlife and the preservation of wildlife here comes from hunters.

[Steve Rinella]

That's like, we fund it, we do the groundwork. People that come out of that world of hunting move into conservation. There are like environmental orgs, there are lobbying orgs, There are orgs that work in all these different ways that aren't, but like they're really effective on the ground. Stuff comes from hunters and anglers.

[Theo Von]

Wow.

[Steve Rinella]

It's just. This isn't like. This is like, this is settled science. I mean, this is me giving you some spin. I'm not giving you like a. A novel way to look at something. It's just like the, it's just the reality. Well, yeah, I. I mean, you're a fishing game agency. What city do you rep? It doesn't matter what the hell you answer me. You're resident in Tennessee. Your fish and game agency gets the bulk of its funding. So your fish and game agency handles like, disease, work, access, work, enforcement of game laws. They get their money from hunting and fishing licenses, the bulk of it. Or they get money from excise taxes on sporting goods, equipment, guns, ammo, whatever. It's just like we pay for it. You know, there's guys that are. There's people that want to deny that reality. But like I said, it's like it's settled science. You can't debate the nuts and bolts of it.

[Theo Von]

Mm.

[Steve Rinella]

So this plays out in other ways that draw a lot of attention. Like something like let's. Let's talk about Tanzania for a minute. Totally different system than what we have in America, but in Tanzania, the most effective way that they're able to. The most effective way that they're able to protect large tracts of wilderness habitat is drawing revenue from them by allowing hunting to occur on those places.

[Theo Von]

Got it.

[Steve Rinella]

It's like productive for them. It's either that or it's slash and burn agriculture. So it's like you're able to go into an area and, and by having people like Westerners, Europeans, Americans, whatever, come there to have an experience of going there and hunting and paying a big amount of money to hunt there warrants them being able to set aside large chunks of ground, the government, and monetize it and monitor it, and then pay for anti poaching efforts and other things that protect it. You might, you might look at it and hate it. You might look at it and be like, I don't think that humans have a right to harm animals. And like, I'm not going to argue that perspective. So you might look at it and be like, it sucks that that has to be true. And I'll be like, okay, it's fine. Maybe in your opinion, it sucks that that has to be true. But what I can't debate with you is, does it have to be true? It's just true.

[Theo Von]

Yeah.

[Steve Rinella]

You know, you might hate that that's the way. But that's the way it is.

[Theo Von]

That's the way it is. Did humans always eat animals, do you think?

[Steve Rinella]

Yeah, since they could be hard not to.

[Theo Von]

I think if you saw, I'm trying to think if I went back in time that would be cool too. You go back, some guy, the first.

[Steve Rinella]

Dude to eat me, he's been, you have to go back some far ass, you'd have to go back.

[Theo Von]

That's fine. We can go back that far.

[Steve Rinella]

There's an idea that like there's, there's a, in anthropology, there's a debate about what time, at what point in time did you have behaviorally and anatomically modern humans. This is, this is not, we're getting way outside of biblical understanding, but we're talking about like from the non biblical science world. Okay, okay. So, so a stepping outside of like, like the biblical confines and going into like purely scientific world. Some people think that you could have grabbed a dude 75, 000 years ago, put him in, grabbed him at birth and he could have, he could learn to fly an airplane, he could go to college, do well, blend in. You'd see him going down the street, wouldn't think anything of it.

[Theo Von]

Yeah. Be a pie cap or whatever.

[Steve Rinella]

Absolutely, absolutely. That was a hunting, that was a hunting consumer of large quantities of animal flesh. That was.

[Theo Von]

Yeah, so, so there's no doubt at that time period that people were really snacking on animals.

[Steve Rinella]

Oh yeah. And then there's this other idea and you know how you, you wind up liking the ideas that, that confirm your own for sure. There's this other idea that the great, in, in a scientific understanding that, that when we had, when humans had this kind of renaissance, like, like we seem to have suddenly kind of figured a bunch of out. And some people correlate that to us becoming predominantly to eating huge amounts of animal flesh. It's so efficient and so full of energy. That was our intellectual renaissance like that, that's when humans became bright and developed like religion and organizational structure and language and all that is when we discovered meat eating.

[Theo Von]

Right. Because we had enough energy not only to satiate our bodies, but then also for the rest of us to maybe flourish some because we finally had a new source that was really replenishing us constantly.

[Steve Rinella]

We were broken from, we were broken from a cycle of needing to eat low grade, low, low, low, low grade, low calorie food all the time.

[Theo Von]

Yeah, right. So then you're constantly just sitting there snacking, whereas otherwise you can have a nice meal, then you sit back and kick it and think of something creative.

[Steve Rinella]

Like a deer is On a really strict schedule of like eating a bunch of low grade food, sitting, ruminating, eating low grade, you know, so deer's always. So there's this idea. Yeah, that's the idea that like. And, and of course I like it because it reinforces like that, that's what I, I like to eat deer meat and stuff. So when I hear that, I'm like, yeah bro, that's right.

[Theo Von]

That's the truth.

[Steve Rinella]

Because we just like the stuff that.

[Theo Von]

Oh yeah. We want to support our own ideas and causes or our own truths. What about pull up like a Neanderthal? What was that called? Like a man. That was 75000 years ago. Was that Neanderthals?

[Steve Rinella]

Well, it would have been, it would have been Homo sapien.

[Theo Von]

Oh God, that must have been.

[Steve Rinella]

Well, no, it'd been like, they would have been. Oh, did you, have you ever had your. Have you ever done like a, you know, the late 23andMe organization?

[Theo Von]

I've done 23andMe. Yeah, they sold all my information.

[Steve Rinella]

Mine.

[Theo Von]

Oh yeah.

[Steve Rinella]

Just the other day my.

[Theo Von]

I'm getting.

[Steve Rinella]

You still delete your.

[Theo Von]

Really? Yeah, I'm getting a bunch because I.

[Steve Rinella]

Would go, I would say like, hey, I want to buy his. See what he's got going on. And I, you know, so I had mine deleted. You can have deleted.

[Theo Von]

I'm getting emails from like you're related to this guy, you know, and it's like a Japanese guy.

[Steve Rinella]

I'm like this, hey, they recently, they're lying where I live. They recently solved a 30 year old murder case from. Because so many people doing 23andMe filling up these, these filling up databases. And so all of a sudden now also now they're like, also now they're like, hey, we got a little ping, a little ping on the map.

[Theo Von]

Yeah.

[Steve Rinella]

Of like a family that seems because they had a biological specimen, we're gonna.

[Theo Von]

Solve all those old crimes.

[Steve Rinella]

They had a biological specimen, right. And so just from people willfully going and doing this kind of work, all of a sudden you start popping all these like markers and then you gotta, you gotta buy a hair, a sperm or whatever.

[Theo Von]

Oh yeah.

[Steve Rinella]

And all of a sudden you're able to be like, well it's not him, but there's some, some dudes them that live in this town. I'd be, let's go have a look around that town. When you do it, they tell you what percent Neanderthal you are. Yeah, yeah, I was lower than average Neanderthal.

[Theo Von]

Huh? Did it upset you?

[Steve Rinella]

No, I wasn't Surprised. I just don't, like. I don't have that vibe, you know? I remember. I feel like. I feel like Joe was telling me Rogan was telling me that he was high up.

[Theo Von]

I could see that guy. I could definitely see.

[Steve Rinella]

I swear. I hope I'm not making that up. I swear he told me.

[Theo Von]

I don't think he would deny that at all. He's definitely like in the Enderthal guy that got struck by some cool ass lightning.

[Steve Rinella]

I swear that's what he was saying. But anyways, I was lower than normal. But the point being. Oh, yeah, there he goes. More than regular people.

[Theo Von]

57. More Neanderthal. Yeah, that's classic.

[Steve Rinella]

So, you know, an understanding is that, you know, they were. Here's a weird deal. I. I wrote this one time and one. I wrote this in the. In a forward to one of my cookbooks. I was writing it. You could have been, like, at a certain time, you could have been in Spain.

[Theo Von]

Okay.

[Steve Rinella]

Okay. You could have been in Spain. You could have been the Iberian Peninsula. You could have been in northern Israel and see a campfire often burning in the distance. And you would have had to have asked yourself, what kind of. What kind of human is that? Do you follow me?

[Theo Von]

Like, you. You mean you would. Had to be like, what race or class or something like that kind.

[Steve Rinella]

What species of human?

[Theo Von]

Oh, like, is that a somebody who's like, kind of like the Neanderthal dudes? Somebody's a little more monkey?

[Steve Rinella]

Yeah. Is it like Neanderthal dudes? Is it like. Like the same way that we talk.

[Theo Von]

About somebody eating a. Somebody eating a banana. Somebody who has a. Sandals at least.

[Steve Rinella]

Eating one of me?

[Theo Von]

Yeah.

[Steve Rinella]

Like, the same way you got like whitetail deer and mute. Like, where I live, we have whitetail deer and murder. They're so similar. Like, it takes. I don't want to say a trained eye to tell them apart, but, you know, someone from another country would look and it might take them a few days for like, oh, they're different.

[Theo Von]

Yeah.

[Steve Rinella]

They're just gonna see and be like, whatever, you know, deer, Deer. But at a time, it'd be that. At a time, it'd be that you'd be like, oh, no, there's the one kind of human and there's these other kinds of humans.

[Theo Von]

Like, that guy's about 2, 000 years back.

[Steve Rinella]

Yeah. And they don't. They don't mix together or they kidnap each other, whatever.

[Theo Von]

Breath, all that.

[Steve Rinella]

Yeah. But when you see that, you're like Joe having that, like, as high as 57% more Neanderthals. Because it's. It's like. It's. It's, you know, we under duress. Was it like an act of passion that made you. No, I'm saying that that drove humans and Neanderthals to interbreed. Was it coercion?

[Theo Von]

You think they're separate beings? Or you think there's one more advance in the Neanderthals?

[Steve Rinella]

Neanderthals were far more successful species than we are. Like, Neanderthals were in Europe far longer than our ancestors were in Europe.

[Theo Von]

But aren't Neanderthals our ancestors, though?

[Steve Rinella]

No, I wouldn't. You can't really. I wouldn't really. Yes. In that it seems like direct human ancestors.

[Theo Von]

Yeah.

[Steve Rinella]

Like Homo sapien.

[Theo Von]

Yeah.

[Steve Rinella]

Okay. It seems like at times they were able to have viable offspring. That at times Neanderthal. Neanderthal people that were in Europe far longer. They were in Europe long, long hundreds of thousands of years before modern humans made the scene.

[Theo Von]

Got it.

[Steve Rinella]

And because of everyone having a little bit of introgression from Neanderthals. This is not my field of study. I'm just saying. No, I'm just a curious onlooker.

[Theo Von]

Let's take a look right here. Ancient human species, including Homo sapiens. Neanderthals.

[Steve Rinella]

Yeah. Denisovans.

[Theo Von]

Denisovans and others did interbreed as they encountered one another during the middle and upper Paleolithic periods. Living detectable genetic legacies in modern populations. Dude, I didn't even know this. I thought, have you seen that chart where it's one man like that, and.

[Steve Rinella]

Then he has deceptive chart.

[Theo Von]

He has a briefcase and then he has Nikes on or whatever.

[Steve Rinella]

That's a deceptive chart, dude.

[Theo Von]

That's fucking. I can't even believe that.

[Steve Rinella]

This is one of the main things I talk about my kids.

[Theo Von]

Wow.

[Steve Rinella]

Trying to explain like. Like, what do you mean? We came from monkeys? I'm like, it's. That's not. Don't look at it that way.

[Theo Von]

Yeah.

[Steve Rinella]

So.

[Theo Von]

Oh, and I want to start talking about my next hour. Comedy is about the middle monkeys. Like, why don't you ever see that middle monkey? Like, you know, I'm saying, like, you'll see a monkey and then you'll see a dude, you know, who's a mechanic. Right. But you never see that middle motherfucker. You know what I'm saying to them?

[Steve Rinella]

All right?

[Theo Von]

The dude who's just scratching under one arm, wrench in the other, just. They don't allow him work to register because he's Just like, you know, but he can change a tire and a. Just with his lips. You know what I'm saying? You don't see that chimp, that chimp man, that middleman.

[Steve Rinella]

So I'm just locked away somewhere.

[Theo Von]

Yeah, but, dude, I never thought that you'd be sitting there and you'd be like, oh, yeah.

[Steve Rinella]

You'd be like, oh, you and your.

[Theo Von]

Buddy, like, dog, let's go, let's go. Let's go do a laugh.

[Steve Rinella]

You better go figure out what kind of dudes it is. But the fact that they. The fact that they enter. The fact that they.

[Theo Von]

Why didn't they tell us this?

[Steve Rinella]

Well, I think that. Well, you might have missed that part.

[Theo Von]

Oh, I wouldn't know that.

[Steve Rinella]

Let me get to my point, though. The fact that they enter bread unreal leads to this question of, was it a Roman. Was it a romantic bonding? Was it like a romantic. Right. Was it something that was like under coercion?

[Theo Von]

It was coercion.

[Steve Rinella]

Do you know what I mean?

[Theo Von]

Yeah.

[Steve Rinella]

Like, was it like a. Like a sort of like conquerors choice kind of.

[Theo Von]

Yeah, it was like when.

[Steve Rinella]

I mean, there wasn't that they would like me in. In over, like, like the Capulets and, you know, from like Romeo and Juliet's family.

[Theo Von]

Stephen. It was not me.

[Steve Rinella]

And come together despite family condemnations and no previous offspring.

[Theo Von]

No. It was like when those nurses that don't treat people well at those hospitals take advantage of. Of them. That's what I think it was.

[Steve Rinella]

I do wonder. That'd be another good time machine burner up right there.

[Theo Von]

And it's a. But here's the tough thing. If a person who was more mentally advanced, hypothetically a Homo sapien, if they tried to. If they tried, like, oh, here's just a Neanderthal. Let's get a little bit of love, you know?

[Steve Rinella]

But they're easy to trick, right?

[Theo Von]

Yeah, but they're not easy to just pin down and make love to. I bet.

[Steve Rinella]

Yeah. Trick them. But even if you trick shells and stuff, right?

[Theo Von]

Even if you trick them with a little wind chime or something, get their attention. I bet. You can't. You're gonna have to. How quick can you make love and still enjoy it and get away from them? I. I wouldn't. That's not a risk I'm taking.

[Steve Rinella]

No, it's time machine questions.

[Theo Von]

I'm not. That's not a risk. I'm someone that hasn't brushed their hair in 70, 000 years. I'm gonna try to them.

[Steve Rinella]

I'm out you know what? I want to put out a call to you. Don't mind me doing a call for a guest. I'm trying. I've been trying to find. No, like a church, but I want to find them. So it's like I'm, like, using your. I'm using, like, your audience to find someone that I might not find on my own.

[Theo Von]

Okay.

[Steve Rinella]

What I've been trying to do for years.

[Theo Von]

Yeah.

[Steve Rinella]

Is I've been trying to find a really, really good. A really good Neanderthal. You can say Neanderthal or tall. You sound a little bit smarter. I understand. My understanding is you sound a little better to see a Neanderthal. It's a valley in Germany.

[Theo Von]

It is.

[Steve Rinella]

Yeah.

[Theo Von]

It's a valley in Germany.

[Steve Rinella]

And you sound a little more like. I'm more likely to get a good guest by saying Neanderthal because they're like, this dude knows his.

[Theo Von]

Yeah.

[Steve Rinella]

I want to find a really good Neanderthal behavioralist. Hard R. Neanderthal researcher.

[Theo Von]

Okay.

[Steve Rinella]

Come on the show and talk about what they know. But it can't be just like a writer who spent a month researching. It's because our audience doesn't like those kinds.

[Theo Von]

Right.

[Steve Rinella]

It's got to be someone that, like, it's got to be someone that lives and breathes. It can't be like an interloper.

[Theo Von]

Yeah.

[Steve Rinella]

Like, I need, like, a legit, a verbose, animated.

[Theo Von]

Yeah.

[Steve Rinella]

Neanderthal research.

[Theo Von]

I don't want some halfway house. I want a trap house that people have been shooting up in for 50 years with information.

[Steve Rinella]

Yeah.

[Theo Von]

About who would just like, who could digest a stone if they need to.

[Steve Rinella]

Yeah. Like that. Like a really good Neanderthal person to come on the show and. And you just reach out to us, and I want to interview you.

[Theo Von]

Okay. There you go, guys. For Steve. They would like that. And here's what.

[Steve Rinella]

You have a lot of Neanderthal researchers that listen to the show.

[Theo Von]

I mean, I bet we have some consumers who would rank high on a Neander scale or whatever. But I'll say this. I want somebody who has a high amount on their 23andMe an extreme.

[Steve Rinella]

I don't want. They don't need to have that.

[Theo Von]

I know you want to.

[Steve Rinella]

I want the highest.

[Theo Von]

I want somebody who's 80.

[Steve Rinella]

Good idea.

[Theo Von]

80% Neanderthal.

[Steve Rinella]

Yeah. But find the highest guy.

[Theo Von]

And when I get them, I'm just going to send them over to you too, Steve, because I think you would do well and because you might be able to notice some patterns that they have or behaviors yeah. Who.

[Steve Rinella]

If. Whatever I had low. Who. Who's the highest?

[Theo Von]

Who's the highest? Somebody has to have the highest Neanderthal amount.

[Steve Rinella]

I know that there is a. I was reading a book. I read a lot of anthropology books. I can't remember if it was the Seven Daughters of Eve. I was reading a book about human history, and in it, they were pointing to some controversy around this question.

[Theo Von]

Okay.

[Steve Rinella]

It's not always. People don't always look upon this. This is not something that everybody likes to talk about, really. Where you see, like, as much as I'd be, whatever. Proud of it or whatever, there are places. There are places in the world where these geneticists see more intels. Yeah. More Neanderthal in certain areas. And it's. It's a sensitive subject. It winds up being a sensitive subject. So you might wind up having not only a fascinating show, but you might have a show that courts a certain level of controversy.

[Theo Von]

I like that.

[Steve Rinella]

Yeah. But what I've found, because I. Because I am interested in this subject, I found that there's a sort of trend in academics to. That. Where there's a trend in academics of being. That we're, like, rebranding Neanderthals. So it wants to be like, oh, they had art. Oh, they, like, wore jewelry. Oh, they were free divers.

[Theo Von]

Right.

[Steve Rinella]

They. Jimmy, like, every.

[Theo Von]

Like, why do you think we're doing that, do you think?

[Steve Rinella]

I don't know why. It's like, because there's this side. There's used to be this idea that there are these, like, thuggish brutes.

[Theo Von]

Right.

[Steve Rinella]

You know, but there's, like, when you look. When you. If you kind of follow Neanderthal news, like I do, there's a Twitter. Yeah. There's like a theme of. Of this kind of, like this delight. Like this kind of delighted realization about how come, like, how complex their culture was, how complex their society was. It'd be like. Like, you don't find, like, man, turns out they were dumber than we thought.

[Theo Von]

Right.

[Steve Rinella]

That's not like a news story. It would be like, oh, they appreciated the finer things in life.

[Theo Von]

Well, it's like the branding. It's like, even when it goes back to, like, you were talking about the bald eagle. It's like just that pr. That spin.

[Steve Rinella]

I wonder if they have a very, very good PR agency.

[Theo Von]

Wow.

[Steve Rinella]

Neanderthals right now. Or. I have a good one on retainer, and they're getting a lot of good ink about that. They liked art and movies, you know, and it's like they're Just getting cooler. They're getting cooler.

[Theo Von]

Oh, yeah, These. They love stamps by me. You're like, that's insane, dude.

[Steve Rinella]

I'm telling you, dude, start paying attention to Neanderthal news and you'll see what I'm talking about. When I get my guest on, he'll tell you all about it. Oh, I love the episode.

[Theo Von]

I love that you're gonna have that, man. Dude, listening to. Dude, what would be better? Listening.

[Steve Rinella]

Of course, I could talk about humans all day long, bro. But, you know, so listening to two.

[Theo Von]

Neanderthals talk about themselves, they wouldn't know a lot, but they would try pretty hard. Yeah, that could be us, dude. That's awesome. That's really awesome, dude. People say you look like Harry Connick Jr. Sometimes.

[Steve Rinella]

No, I've gotten. I used to get Kevin Bacon.

[Theo Von]

That's who it is.

[Steve Rinella]

I used to get a dude from the. A dude from. Remember the show where they would, like, do all the crazy stunts to each other? Oh, Johnny Knoxville.

[Theo Von]

Oh, yeah. Johnny Knoxville. I could see that song.

[Steve Rinella]

Get that.

[Theo Von]

Those are good. Those are good ones.

[Steve Rinella]

Yeah. I don't see that one too clear. Because I don't never get. I never do clever with my hair.

[Theo Von]

Yeah, yeah. Johnny's hair is always kind of stylish and stuff.

[Steve Rinella]

Yeah. So I think that Kevin Bacon, like, he doesn't get too clever with his hair.

[Theo Von]

I saw that he was kicking ass.

[Steve Rinella]

When I was a kid in the movie making business, man, you know?

[Theo Von]

Oh, he's such a talented guy. I saw the guy who was in Fight Club the other night.

[Steve Rinella]

Brad Pitt.

[Theo Von]

Nope. I saw Edward Norton the other night.

[Steve Rinella]

Oh.

[Theo Von]

With some friends. It was, like, at our little restaurant. And I was like, is that Edward Norton, man? It was him.

[Steve Rinella]

I don't look like him?

[Theo Von]

No, you don't. I'd love to look like him. Edward Norton. I'm trying to think, if you had to look like a woman, who do you think he'd look like?

[Steve Rinella]

That's a great question. I don't know out there.

[Theo Von]

No, I'm sure. But look, if we get to pick, that's why we're having this conversation, dude. I didn't want to talk about it, but let's talk about it. What I'm saying is, if you got to look like a woman, who would you look like? It's kind of a good question. Trying to think who.

[Steve Rinella]

I could see you. I'm not even, like, like, equipped, man. I can't really think of what you're getting. I mean, like, I'm not getting anything. If I Was a woman. What woman would I want to look like? Or if I had to be a dude that looked like a woman?

[Theo Von]

Oh, no, dude, what are you talking about?

[Steve Rinella]

I don't know.

[Theo Von]

I'm not talking about some chop shop, aftermarket woman. I'm talking about some. I'm talking about a certified bone in woman. Like your woman from the jump.

[Steve Rinella]

Yeah. But what I'm getting at is there's two ways of looking at it. You're saying that I remain a dude, I remain a guy.

[Theo Von]

No.

[Steve Rinella]

Oh, I become a woman.

[Theo Von]

No.

[Steve Rinella]

What? What wound up.

[Theo Von]

You're a woman from the start. Say somebody.

[Steve Rinella]

Oh, like going back. I was born a woman.

[Theo Von]

Yes.

[Steve Rinella]

And then I wanted to pick which of these women I wanted to look like.

[Theo Von]

Which woman would you be good at? Which one would you be? I wonder? It's a great question, actually. I'm trying to think who you would be.

[Steve Rinella]

Let me think about it for just a second, man. For some reason, the name Naomi Watts keeps coming to my head. But I don't know why it's just popping in my head.

[Theo Von]

Little pervert.

[Steve Rinella]

I know it's just popping in my head. I don't mean it to bring her up. Oh, yeah, it just popped in my head. I don't want to be held to it. It popped in my head, dude.

[Theo Von]

It's not a bad choice. She's great. Naomi Watts, I like.

[Steve Rinella]

It just popped in my head. I don't know.

[Theo Von]

Thousand one.

[Steve Rinella]

Yeah, I look exactly like that.

[Theo Von]

Anyways, I'm in. Dude.

[Steve Rinella]

Oh, look, I look. That's what I look like.

[Theo Von]

Yeah, that's why. Dude, there were some cuties in our neighborhood. And that's why people started doing Peep and Tom. And I'll tell you this, if you grew up around busted women, nobody's getting that step stool out. You know that.

[Steve Rinella]

Oh, there we are right there.

[Theo Von]

There's you and Joe right there.

[Steve Rinella]

No, no, that's something. I'd be more like if you'd have to be one of those dudes and Naomi Watts.

[Theo Von]

Yeah. Neither one of those is us. I saw. What were you talking about? I saw something. You were talking about going on a safari in Africa. Oh, did you notice this?

[Steve Rinella]

So I did do that.

[Theo Von]

But yeah, but either way, I noticed that.

[Steve Rinella]

Like, I was talking about the. The snakes and. Yeah.

[Theo Von]

When I went to Africa, Right. So I went there like a couple times for some different safaris and stuff like that. I felt like some of the people, when you look in their eyes, there it goes further back in time. Does that make sense? Make Any sense to you at all?

[Steve Rinella]

I think that it may have, but I believe that that would be your perception of that. That would be your perception, right?

[Theo Von]

Dude, I talked to this one guy and I was like, this guy, he's just got. Damn. Just, just back through. I mean you could. It just felt like it went back to the, like just to where the fingers of existence first snapped right there at the damn sound. You've gone hunting in Africa?

[Steve Rinella]

I did. For the first time ever this summer.

[Theo Von]

You did, did you enjoy it? Were you?

[Steve Rinella]

I, I, I, I, I.

[Theo Von]

Were you. Life changing experience, like in what way?

[Steve Rinella]

I hadn't been to that, I hadn't been to that continent. It wasn't like the going hunting there was life changing. But one of the things I like about hunting is it immerses you and it immerses you in a situation and immerses you in an environment in a deeper way than you would be immersed otherwise. Because you're doing something very, like very ancient and base, you know. So it wasn't the experience of being there hunting, but just the. I hadn't been, that was like I hadn't visited that continent and so I got to go to a couple places and it was just, it was, it just scrambled up my head about, you know, when you see different ways of living, you know. So in that way it was, it was profound to me. It was profound.

[Theo Von]

Did you guys visit some like innate cultures there and stuff like that?

[Steve Rinella]

Yeah, like some very, yeah, like some really ancient cultures. I spent a little bit of time in this place called Masai Land and met dudes, met Masai dudes that are herders. You know, they'll live in, they'll live in structures they make themselves from native material and herd cattle and been herding cattle since, you know, from our perspective, since the beginning of time on this place.

[Theo Von]

Did it feel like traveling back in time a little?

[Steve Rinella]

Yeah, it did for me for sure. Just, just like those glimpses into, like those glimpses into. Into cultures that have. Those glimpses into cultures that have, have remained relative to our own, that have remained very constant. Okay, so like that was, that was. Yeah. Here's some photos of Maasai folks. That was very eye opening.

[Theo Von]

The dark Amish right there being out.

[Steve Rinella]

They're herders, you know, they're like beautiful. Oh, dude. Stunning. Stunning.

[Theo Von]

Do you think they have such a different relationship with existence than we do?

[Steve Rinella]

Yes.

[Theo Von]

Yeah, me too.

[Steve Rinella]

Oh, 100. Yeah. Like they send their, they send like the kids bust their ass. They'll spend, they'll send Little kids out, like when they'll send their kids out to watch the goat herds. Man, those kids don't drink water and eat until they come home at night. They, they raise them to be tough, tough, tough. You kick it more as a grown up. Like kids will work real hard, you know, and as you get older you get, you kind of get more of like you get to kick it a little bit more. But when you're a kid you bust ass. That was fascinating. A lot about it was fascinating. And I also liked like the animals a thing that I've been, there's a thing that I've like lamented in, in, in conversations with my friends, in my writing and all kinds of things. I've, I often, I spend a lot of time thinking about, studying, talking about writing about Ice Age America. So our continent, what it was like in the, at the, the Pleistocene Holocene trans transition. So like humans that were here during the tail end of the Ice Age, the first people that came here, what was their, what were their lives like? And they lived amongst this, this great abundance and diversity of wildlife that we don't have now. Yeah, mammoths, Macedon short faced bears. Right. All this kind of. They had a, they had a, they had a giant like a beaver that was the size of a black bear. There was an American lion.

[Theo Von]

Man, there was like multiple market.

[Steve Rinella]

Oh, we don't have so going there like that was the one continent, that was the one continent where all the big did Bichons. Yeah, that's the. Africa is the one continent where humans and all this megafauna never changed. They for whatever reason, it's the one continent where all the big didn't vanish. So you still have that great diversity of wildlife. So you can sit in the US like if you're a guy like me who's really interested in history, you can sit in the US and lament that our elephants are gone. Like we don't have like 9, 10, 11, 12, 20 species of ungulates running around at any given time.

[Theo Von]

Antelopes.

[Steve Rinella]

Yeah, like whatever. But you go to after you're like, oh, that's what they were talking about. Like the Ice Age. Yeah, you're like the Ice Age is alive and well. Like there is an elephant, there's a hippo. There's stuff that weighs thousands of pounds. Like thousands of pounds. There's stuff that weighs tons, you know. And so it didn't, what happened everywhere else didn't happen there. So that was to, to go like, oh, it's not gone, it's somewhere else. But you can go and be like, this is what it would be like. I wrote down a list. I kept a list on my notes function in my phone. I kept a list of like, large mammals. Large mammals. Species that we encountered. And I can't remember, man. By the time we were done, we had like 27. I. I could pull up my phone and show you. Maybe I have it. Anyways. I had like 27 large mammal species that I personally laid eyes on.

[Theo Von]

Wow, that's cool.

[Steve Rinella]

And that would be like. That's the. We're talking about like an ice age America and so life changing in those kind of ways.

[Theo Von]

Yeah. You know, I wonder if you had a brain scan whenever you see those types of things. Right. As a human, I wonder if there's a different reaction that happens in your brain as opposed to when you see different animals. Like, does it take us back to a part of us that, like, knew those animals well or knew that they existed?

[Steve Rinella]

Like, I wonder theory about that that, like, why do you that that, you know, when you take babies and make a mobile, the animal things. There's this kind of seems to be kind of a Mamie theory. But there's this idea that. And this is kind of like ancestral Africa thing that. That those animals resonate with babies because it's drawing back to some deep, deep memory. Oh, the animals that are on a mobile megafauna.

[Theo Von]

Oh, yeah. It's always a giraffe.

[Steve Rinella]

I don't buy that. But I like. I think it's. Like I said, I think it's a little goofy, but there is that.

[Theo Von]

I think bluey resonates with. You know what I'm saying? That's crazy. You think Thomas the train resonates like from prehistoria or whatever?

[Steve Rinella]

Well, it's just. It's just an idea. But there is a thing that is that I do think about when I think about animals and deep history. And that's gone. Is as bummed as you can get. As bummed as you can get about animals that used to be around that aren't anymore. Like the way little kids trip out about dinosaurs being gone. As bummed as you might get about all that. The biggest animal to ever live. The largest animal to ever live on the face of the earth is here right now.

[Theo Von]

And it is a blue whale.

[Steve Rinella]

Yeah. Biggest animal ever live on the face of the earth. So when little kids are like, golly, those dinosaurs, like.

[Theo Von]

The big bosses.

[Steve Rinella]

Biggest animal to ever live is here.

[Theo Von]

Yeah, that's the dmx.

[Steve Rinella]

If you put your Effort into it. You go see the biggest animal that ever lived on the face of the Earth.

[Theo Von]

Dude, that is crazy. And it gives you hope that. That. That if he wants, he'll bring those other ones back. That they can do it with science. If they can do it, dude, it's gonna happen soon.

[Steve Rinella]

Yeah. I don't. I disagree, but that's a different time, really.

[Theo Von]

We'll talk about that another time, though. But, dude, one thing. I will say this. I went on a safari and were there, right? So the guy. It was like an ambassador somewhere. I think we were in maybe in Kenya, and the guy.

[Steve Rinella]

You're on a photo safari?

[Theo Von]

Yeah, we were just, like, in. Yeah, we didn't get. We got out, but only near the place we were staying. Otherwise, we were just kind of in.

[Steve Rinella]

Cruising in trucks.

[Theo Von]

Cruising in trucks? Yeah. Oh, there was a pride alliance that kind of came around us at one point, and they were just laying down, like they weren't bothering us or anything. And the guy is like, do not stand up in here. Everybody just stay. I'm gonna start the engine up in a little bit. I'm just gonna back out of here. And they were like, someone like six or seven feet away. Like, it was definitely pretty gnarly. It was probably like seven or eight of them. And this one woman's phone goes off, right? And it was a. Like a. It was like an icarly ringtone or something. It was like some.

[Steve Rinella]

I don't know what that means.

[Theo Von]

It was some tv, some children's show in world. It was just like, we're gonna die. And she immediately kind of just like. I don't know. It's just funny.

[Steve Rinella]

You thought it would have startled the cat, and the cat might have done something.

[Theo Von]

Oh, for sure. The guy just said, do not make any sharp moves. Do not stand up. And this lady's camera, like, phone went off, and she kind of went like that, and then I just turned around. But it's just, like, in a moment's notice, like, you can be wiped out because of ignorant human ignorance. You know, human error.

[Steve Rinella]

So, again, it takes up psychological space. Big old cats.

[Theo Von]

Yeah.

[Steve Rinella]

Yeah.

[Theo Von]

But, man. Yeah, I appreciate you coming and talking, man. This is a lot of fun.

[Steve Rinella]

No, I enjoyed it.

[Theo Von]

Yeah, it was a lot of fun, man. I gotta come over there and go on one of your journeys sometimes.

[Steve Rinella]

If you guys, I'll take you out to do something.

[Theo Von]

Yeah. Do you guys go to Montana?

[Steve Rinella]

Yeah, that's where I live.

[Theo Von]

Yeah, it is.

[Steve Rinella]

Yeah.

[Theo Von]

Dude, I love to fish.

[Steve Rinella]

What do you like to catch?

[Theo Von]

Catfish.

[Steve Rinella]

You like catfishing?

[Theo Von]

I like catfish, but I would be. Well, I'm willing to catch other fish as well.

[Steve Rinella]

What's the kind of fish you'd most like to catch?

[Theo Von]

I would like to catch probably one of those big long trout.

[Steve Rinella]

Big long trout.

[Theo Von]

Like the ones you see in. That Brad Pitt and his brother caught, remember?

[Steve Rinella]

Sure.

[Theo Von]

Those. Those are awesome, dude.

[Steve Rinella]

We can arrange that, man. I would be. I would be honored to take you out fishing.

[Theo Von]

I'm going to be in Montana in the beginning of. At the. I think the first week of October. I don't know if you're going to be over there or not.

[Steve Rinella]

I'm proud. Yeah, I might be. What are you doing there?

[Theo Von]

I'm supposed to go to some, like, seminar kind of thing or something.

[Steve Rinella]

Seminar?

[Theo Von]

Yeah. I don't know what.

[Steve Rinella]

It's Neanderthals.

[Theo Von]

I wish. I hope so. Dude, if it is. And I. And I can bring somebody.

[Steve Rinella]

Can you? Yeah, please ask around.

[Theo Von]

I'm gonna be like. I'll be like, hey, look, if it is. I'll make sure to do some recon.

[Steve Rinella]

Please. Yeah, I'd appreciate it. No, yeah, it'll be fun.

[Theo Von]

It'd be fun, dude. To go fish, you know, I think. Yeah. Like, you wanna.

[Steve Rinella]

Do you ever do. Have you ever done a float? Like you want to float down a river and catch trout?

[Theo Von]

I've never done that before. Yeah, I've done whatever. The one. Not the cr. Like fishing. Oh, yeah.

[Steve Rinella]

You've done fly fishing. Do you like that?

[Theo Von]

I did like it. It was cool, man. I only. I only got to do it one time, but I think you like.

[Steve Rinella]

Did you like. Do you like the water? Have you ever. You never spearfished?

[Theo Von]

I've never spear fished.

[Steve Rinella]

Okay.

[Theo Von]

I love to fish, though.

[Steve Rinella]

Well, I would. I would be honored to take you fishing, man. That'd be fun.

[Theo Von]

Cool.

[Steve Rinella]

All right, we'll do it. Yeah, that'd be great.

[Theo Von]

It'd be awesome, man. Thanks for all your contributions to just helping people learn about the outdoors and the history of the outdoors. I know you have a book out that's. Or it might be your newest book about when people are looking for beaver pellets and stuff across North America.

[Steve Rinella]

Yeah, so I.

[Theo Von]

It's about mountain man, right?

[Steve Rinella]

Yeah. I have a new. There's a new meat eater season coming out. And then we have. I've been working on these things, these meat eaters. American history series. We did one on the long hunters. So, like, Daniel Boone was a family. He used to hunt this country. Daniel in the deer skin trade. So the late colonial deer skin trade did one on the mountain men and the beaver trade. And then our new one coming out now is called the Hide Hunters and it's about the people that wiped out the last 15 million buffalo off the Great Plains at the end of the Civil War, you know, so it's these things about the mark. It's about market hunting history. That's, that's, that's, that's pre sale. It's not. That's available. That's available for pre sale right now, but we just finished that. The Hide Hunters. So the Meat Eaters American History series, that, that's a lot of the. We taught like, like what you and I have been talking about. It's a lot of. That's kind of a home for a lot of that information.

[Theo Von]

Cool.

[Steve Rinella]

Yeah. Like a lot of like human history.

[Theo Von]

Yeah.

[Steve Rinella]

Wildlife. Like how resources get exploited, overexploited, recovered those, those, those series, their audio originals. Right. I do print books too, but those are like audio. They're audio stories. Like I, that me and a researcher, we like put them together, I narrate them and they kind of tell that story of America through, like American history, American movement through these kind of like keystone wildlife species that supported a lot of industry and economic activity at different times. Because for a long time that's what American economies were driven by was leather.

[Theo Von]

Yeah.

[Steve Rinella]

Fur and leather.

[Theo Von]

Wow.

[Steve Rinella]

Yeah.

[Theo Von]

Is it interesting to see that, like, hunting has, like, taken away species? Like, I mean, it's kind of takes.

[Steve Rinella]

Them away and puts them back.

[Theo Von]

I know.

[Steve Rinella]

Yeah.

[Theo Von]

Dude.

[Steve Rinella]

We've done. We like speaking collectively, hunters, as much as I hesitate to speak collectively, like the practice of hunting has done a lot of damage and has done a lot of recovery. We've righted, like we collectively, historically hunters, have done a lot in the last century, done an extraordinary amount in the last century to right the wrongs of our fathers. Yeah.

[Theo Von]

Well, I think it does feel like in the end, like the general feeling of a lot of hunters, it's not just about going out and killing something. It's about having a relationship with nature. Yeah.

[Steve Rinella]

Anyone who's serious about it, that's what drives it.

[Theo Von]

Yeah.

[Steve Rinella]

That desire, like if you just have a desire to go out and kill something, it doesn't last long.

[Theo Von]

Yeah. You can do that in Memphis. Steve Ro, thank you so much, dude. And thanks for putting up with me today.

[Steve Rinella]

And I appreciate, I appreciate the opportunity. I look forward to us going fishing to go to. That'll be a great time.

[Theo Von]

It was fun.

[Steve Rinella]

I got a bunch of friends gonna be jealous.

[Theo Von]

Really?

[Steve Rinella]

I might bring one of them. Bring very good friend of mine, Seth. He's a huge fan of yours.

[Theo Von]

Oh, really?

[Steve Rinella]

In his pants when I told him I was coming on your show.

[Theo Von]

Oh, that's cool, dude. Yeah, dude. Yeah.

[Steve Rinella]

Maybe he'll fish with us.

[Theo Von]

Oh, yeah. If he wants to come though.

[Steve Rinella]

He doesn't. He won't say anything weird. He probably won't say much at all.

[Theo Von]

It already seems weird. But it's okay, man. It would be an honor, man. Thank you so much. I appreciate it, Steve. Now I'm just floating on the breeze and I feel I'm falling like these leaves I must be cornerstone oh, but when I reach that ground I'll share this peace of mind I found I can feel it in my bones but.

[Steve Rinella]

It'S gonna take a little.