A (3:21)

That's like a. Oh, for sure. Well, do you think of yourself as country music?

B (3:28)

I do, yeah. I am a country boy. I grew up in the country, so I am very country just by. By culture. And I cannot help but write country songs. I. I grew up listening to country music and classic rock. I grew up in body shops, and it was all classic rock and country music, old school and 90s. And so that was kind of my pedigree, my listening pedigree. And then I grew up very country, very agrarian, kind of hunting for our own food. And I ate a lot of squirrels growing up, and rabbits and, yeah, we just grew up very country. Wasn't trendy at all either. It was like, just a means of survival. My dad was raising three kids and on his own, and so he just went out and killed food. It was a lot cheaper than buying it at the grocery store. Like, you know, one slug, one deer slug could feed you for, like, three months. So, like, that's the way he looked at it.

A (4:29)

Oh, there's a beautiful group right there. You guys kids, huh?

B (4:32)

That's my dad and his three little ones. And that's. That's me at that.

A (4:37)

You on the bottom left there, Kind of middle.

B (4:38)

Yeah, in the middle, yeah.

A (4:40)

And who's that dime on his lap, huh? And I mean that respectfully. I'm such a child. Who's that beautiful young lady?

B (4:47)

Yeah, that's my little sister, Lacy J. Lacey J. Lacey J. Yeah. Named after Lacy J. Dalton, another country singer. And, yeah, she's his little girl. And she is. She is beautiful, and she's a beautiful person in general. She's really kept our. Who, family. Like me and my brother right there, we're like Irish twins. We're only like, a year and a few months apart, so we, like, we were. We grew up beating the hell out of each other. We were both boxers. My dad right there in this picture, he had just won, you know, the Golden Gloves for, like, the third or fourth time in a row. And, you know, he was probably just running over to Like Owen Mills or somewhere at Walmart, grabbing this picture real quick. So just so, like, just there's proof that we existed and proof that he did this. And I always find it wild that he had time to even figure this out. Snap that picture amidst his life. It was so crazy.

A (5:46)

And for a dad to put that together that didn't, you know, that wasn't really the dad world. So he was a single dad raising you guys?

B (5:53)

Yeah, he was driving a bus in the morning and then working at a body shop and training to be a boxer. He. He was wanting to be a pro boxer, but a lot of things, you know, he had to really kind of focus on being a dad and kind of had to put his boxing career because he really had a very promising career, him. And so a lot of my dreams, I live kind of, you know, for him and myself, but because he put a lot of his dreams on the back burner to raise me, like, he also created me. So, like, he, like, he kind of had to do that if, you know, like, so. But, you know, a lot of people don't take that responsibility. And when I see that picture, I have like a. Like you said, a memory.

A (6:35)

Well, either got the day he's got great dimples, or somebody caught him with two good.

B (6:38)

No, yeah, he's got great dimples.

A (6:40)

Yeah, he does. Okay, I'm starting to get.

B (6:41)

Has the same ones and. But yeah, I see that guy right there. And about a year from that picture, he would have been curling my little sister's hair and getting her ready for kindergarten. And. And even though his eyes were swollen shut from sparring the night before, I have, like, distinct memories of him, like, getting her ready for school and being like a dad to a very young little girl. Like, and, like, you know, crimping her hair and curling it and, you know, being.

A (7:10)

Being.

B (7:10)

Being a dad. Also doing feminine things, like, because there was no one to do the feminine thing. So he was like, I gotta be dad. And he was really good, and he knew how to do the dude. The dad dude part. Like, he had me and my brother boxing every night, and we were hunting and fishing and doing all the dude things, but he had also had to be a dad to a little girl that was, like, the light of his life.

A (7:34)

Wow.

B (7:34)

That was, like, quite the responsibility. And I look back on that and I have, like, like I said, just such a distinct memory of him curling her hair, like, while morning cartoons are playing, right before we got on the school bus. And yeah, he was quite the dude.

A (7:49)

What was his name?

B (7:51)

Stephen Wilson. Oh, he was senior.

A (7:53)

Yes. You just never know. Sometimes they'll throw a junior on somebody just because they don't know what's going on.

B (7:57)

Yeah.

A (7:57)

You know, or they're just a NASCAR fan. They'll tack it onto the back of their kids.

B (8:01)

Pick that like a donkey tail. They just put it on there like a junior.

A (8:05)

Like it will pin the tail on this child.

B (8:07)

You know, I'm very much a junior. It's very much a thing in boxing especially. Like, you know, I, I joke around that, you know, my, you know, my dad, you know, he was, he was named after a martyr in the Bible. Like my grandmother named him after a guy that was. Had rocks thrown at him until he died. In the Bible, Stephen. With a ph, by the way, and which makes a lot of sense because I'm pretty sure my dad was stoned when I was born. Was he the joke?

A (8:40)

Oh, the ph level of his brain was probably weed. Probably. Then it might have been plus 40 then. Depends on if he was some. On some serious gas or not.

B (8:47)

He did like perhaps the.

A (8:50)

Oh, you had.

B (8:50)

Yeah, the country cabbage.

A (8:52)

The store. The story of Stephen from, from the Bible. Stephen, the first Christian martyr of the first Christian martyr was stoned to death outside Jerusalem for his faith as described in Acts 7 of the Bible. His executioners, including a young Saul, threw rocks at him after he testified about Jesus.

B (9:09)

Yep.

A (9:09)

Why did Saul not want him to testify him? Did he not believe him or did he just not want him sharing the truth?

B (9:14)

Well, Saul at the time, this is pre Paul because Saul turned into Paul once he saw Christ, like the spirit of Christ appeared before him and that's when he became Paul. But at that point Saul was very much a figure of the Jewish religion. Like he was a very high ranking Jewish official. So like he was kind of, you know, like a high ranking individual. And so he was really in his mind at that time, probably just doing his job.

A (9:46)

Right.

B (9:47)

Not really knowing why he was doing it. But then he, you know, he had a very much a come to Jesus moment. No, no pun intended. That's when he became Paul and he wrote literally probably 2/3 of the, the New Testament or at least a lot of it, half of it.

A (10:04)

At least. This says here, it says, and we use perplexity AI and it says before his conversion, Saul was a zealous Pharisaic Jew. Pharisee was, was a zealous Pharisee who believed followers of Jesus were dangerous heretics. So from his perspective, Stephen's preaching against their rejection of Jesus and His criticism of their misus the temple was blasphemous and deserved death under the understanding of the law. That zeal led him to participate by giving approval and overseeing the execution, which he later remembered with deep sorrow when he became the Apostle Paul. Wow.

B (10:38)

Yeah.

A (10:38)

Gosh, dude, that's. I mean, that's got to be a lot to carry, because if Stephen was the first Christian martyr and you had him stoned because your faith wasn't there yet, and then to look back through.

B (10:52)

A different perspective not much longer after that, for him to be like, oh, now I'm preaching the same gospel gospel without rocks being thrown at me. And now that's a. That has to be a quite the thing to come to terms with. And I think that's what motivated him to write, you know, so many epistles of the New Testament and became such a huge figure of the New Testament. There's a lot of books that they believe were written by Paul, like the Book of Hebrews. There's, like, no author, but they believe even he wrote, like, books that nobody has any author to like. They just. They can identify his style of writing and be like, it had to be Paul.

A (11:36)

So, yeah, people love your style of writing, man.

B (11:39)

Speaking of that, I grew up very religious. That's why I talk about. I grew up in a Pentecostal, Nazarene kind of church. A lot of holy rolling, and I read a lot of the Bible growing well.

A (11:49)

Yeah, I just started going to a Bible study. This is the first time I've ever been to a Bible study in my life. And so it's been interesting to start to just learn about different characters from the Bible and just different stories and stuff. So, yeah, I'm just glad that we even got to talk about that. And. Yeah, and that. That's how your father was named, from Stephen. I didn't know that story, and I remember it. Yeah, so that's pretty cool. What was that? Yeah, the church you went to. Because you're from the Midwest, you're from Indiana.

C (12:12)

Yeah, I'm from where.

B (12:13)

I'm from Southern Indiana, Kentuckiana. They call that area, like, just north of Louisville, Kentucky, just close to where Trevin's from. And.

A (12:20)

Okay, that's our producer.

B (12:21)

I would say that's where the Midwest and the south kind of chest bump or shake hands. It is literally a collision of two cultures. So people have Southern accents and watch nascar, but they also put noodles in their chili, which is a very Midwestern thing. So, yeah, there it is. Jackson County, Indiana, right there in this Southern Part.

A (12:41)

Oh, yeah, the Midwest, they'll starch up a protein in a second. They don't give a dang, brother. They'll put a starch right in the middle of a protein. Yeah, that's how they are there. They love that. I mean, I was.

B (12:51)

Long winters.

A (12:52)

Yes.

B (12:52)

Cold. You need them starches.

A (12:54)

Oh, yeah. I would grow. I mean, I would go. We used to go to. The AC was an apostolic Christian church with my grandparents and some of their neighbors. And it was in Illinois, like, in pretty much southern Illinois. And that was just part of the culture. Like, people would eat their dessert at the beginning of dinner sometimes. So they made sure they got their dessert in, like, it was just kind of some of that culture.

B (13:13)

Yeah, you don't want to miss that. Get too full, getting too excited on mashed potatoes, and they're like, damn, I ain't got nothing.

A (13:20)

It was almost a shame if you couldn't make. If you didn't have space available in your body for a beautiful dessert, somebody had made. You almost felt a bit ashamed in a way.

B (13:30)

Yeah, you should be. I think how much work was put into that cobbler compared to those mashed potatoes. Like you. Yeah, you ate the, like, the easy stuff.

A (13:39)

Oh, and sometimes you'd have somebody, you know, you'd have such skilled labor in there. You'd have a real cobbler making the cobbler. You'd have a damn shoelace going through a. Going through a peach. You know, you'd be in there.

B (13:50)

Bootleg cobbler, cobbler.

A (13:51)

You find. Yeah, you'd find half a soul. And, you know, you'd be like, oh, is this. Is this crust or is this a, you know, part of an eleven and a half?

B (14:01)

Yeah. What is this cobbler? Soulless.

A (14:03)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like. No, not so much. He's got real, real heels in the corner. You know, it was just. But there was so much value, I remember, in my grandmother's town on cooking and on having people over for meals. Just that Midwestern culture, you know, on hard work. And religion was a big part of it. You know, even their neighbors. If my grandparents couldn't take us to church, their neighbors would offer, we'll take them to church, you know, and we'd go in and just get to see what some of the different churches were like. And that was one of the bigger religions in the area, was Apostolic Christian over there.

B (14:34)

You see any exorcisms or any speaking in tongues or movements of the spirit?

A (14:39)

Let me think. No, they had good donuts. They braided their hair. The women did, like, One big braid. They didn't show a lot, you know, it was very kind of covered up with some of the female culture.

B (14:49)

They braided their. Their donuts.

A (14:51)

They did have those one.

B (14:53)

Yeah.

A (14:53)

What is that one? That's.

B (14:54)

I don't know. It's. It's. I don't know what it's called. I don't love it.

A (14:58)

I don't either. Yeah, it's too much bread. And I don't think there's feeling in it. You think there is when you're a kid.

B (15:02)

It's very deceiving. Twisted donut. No, there's a word for it, and it's.

A (15:09)

What is that? Creller was one that I loved, but a. I don't think this was a Creller. Well, Creller often made from show pastry, French cruller or yeasto with the distinctive twisted shape on. Maybe it was a cruller. Yeah, maybe it was, but. Yeah.

B (15:25)

Something else, though.

A (15:25)

It looked good as a kid, but it was. It was just.

B (15:28)

Yeah, it was always like, oh, I want that. And then you would eat it and you're like, man, there wasn't trash. Yeah, I should have went with that Bavarian cream.

A (15:34)

Yeah. Or I should have went with the one with the frosting on it, you know? But we had a beautiful time. Yeah. I didn't meet any. There was no seancery, really. I do remember there was a mentally handicapped fellow who said he could drive, and he was a driver's ed instructor. And he wasn't. He was just, you know, and some people believe he was mentally handicapped. Some people were like, he's possessed by the devil. I'm like, well, he's not possessed by like a devil who just, you know, is sitting around his pick in his nose and just, you know. Yeah, he was just a little bit off. This dude named Brandon. And he was awesome, actually. He was kind of this special guy between an adult and a kid. And he never left that zone, you know, so there was something kind of very approachable to him about kids because he was bigger than us, but he was just like us. And he. He. He taught me how to. He said he could drive. And we drove right into a snowbank and the police came and everything. But it was just exciting, though.

B (16:28)

He was. He was a liar.

A (16:29)

Yeah.

B (16:29)

He was a good place for him to be at church.

A (16:32)

He was a Bears fan. I think it was a tough time for everybody.

B (16:36)

That's. That's. I mean, I got to say I saw quite a few demon possessed. Brandon's where I grew up. I saw a Lot of demons. Brandon's get demons cast out of them.

A (16:45)

Really? So you would see that at your church. Yeah. And what was that kind of like? Like, because something, someplace that's a part of a culture and I believe that, I believe in that type of stuff. Do you believe in it?

B (16:56)

I do. You know, I have a, you know that I've tried to deconstruct a lot of that through because I have a science background. I've had to really try to understand a lot of that and understand what is real and what is not. But there was a lot of it that was 100 real and there was a lot of it that 100% not. And I, you know, I believe there's theatrics, but I also believe, you know, God is everywhere. And I believe God did show up in those places, just like God will show up in any place. But yeah, I did see a lot of, you know, grown ass drywall dudes get like demons cast out of them before lunch. And I'd be like sitting there with half a pop tart in my stomach watching this dude literally like throwing dudes around and like exhibiting some superhuman strength.

A (17:46)

Oh, they're popping the tart right out of that dude.

B (17:48)

Yeah, yeah.

A (17:49)

You know what I'm saying? That's the original pop tartar, dude. He's a damn exorcist.

B (17:53)

Yeah, he just, he created the original pop tart. That cherry flavored pop tart was from a demon exorcism. That's why it's red.

A (17:59)

Yeah, you just know they could have gone with a lot darker flavors, but they're like, let's make this available to children. But, dude, a pop tarts and exorcism. I'm there, dude.

B (18:08)

I'll sit on your lap speaking in tongues. I actually went. We'd, you know, some, you know, in our town, like an evangelist could like show up to your church and like a traveling evangelist and be like, we're having revival here this week. And literally the church would shut down and be like, we're having revival, y'. All. This is what we're doing. And the whole week would be a revival just because this dude showed up and said, God told me to have a revival here. And they would have a huge, like, big tent revival.

A (18:36)

No way.

B (18:37)

Absolutely, dude.

A (18:37)

It's always been my dream to be a part of something like that.

B (18:39)

No.

A (18:40)

Leap of Faith was my favorite movie growing up.

B (18:42)

Dude, that movie, nobody knows about it. It's one of the greatest movies ever made. Literally change my life. Oh, my gosh. I'M so glad you know about that movie. Like very few people I've been able to talk to about that movie because it has one of the most profound impacts on me really as a kid, just because of how I grew up and the music business and seeing performance and theatrics and, you know, where is God and where isn't God? And that movie is just brilliantly done. But I remember I went up, this dude showed up and he said, tonight everybody's getting slain in the spirit. You come up, you're getting slain. And I don't know if you know what slain means. Like you, you stand up there and the dude hits you and you fall down and you just out for however long. And oh yeah, everybody lined up and I was like, I'm getting slain tonight. I've never been.

A (19:30)

That's that freaking religious Percocet right there.

B (19:32)

I would, I wanted it bad. And he just knocking people over left and right. Boom, boom, boom. I'd seen him go down. I was like, he's coming to me.

A (19:41)

No way.

B (19:41)

He got to me and he started speaking in tongues. And I remember he tapped me right in the forehead. Boom. Like that. I was like, oh, that was, that was kind of hard. I was like training for the Golden Gloves at that time. So I was like a little bit like, what's up? Like, he just like hit me right in the forehead with his fingers.

A (19:58)

Yeah.

B (19:58)

And then he started, you know, it didn't work. Like it didn't take. And so he did it again even harder. And I was like kind of like mad about it at that point because it actually kind of hurt. I was like, is this dude trying to knock me out?

A (20:10)

Yeah.

B (20:10)

Or like he's trying to slay me in the spirit. And anyway he.

A (20:14)

Yeah, let's look at the judges car.

B (20:16)

And I'm just like getting hit in the forehead by him. And then he just moved on. It was one of the most heartbreaking things. He went to the next guy, knocked him out, Next guy down, down.

A (20:24)

Being defiant, do you think?

B (20:25)

I don't know, I thought like, man, I guess I don't believe. Am I. Did I like snap out of it? Was I, you know, was I not in the moment? I didn't, I didn't really know what to think because I was like a 19 year old kid just trying to feel God and try to get closer to God. And everybody seemed to be doing that. And what was wild is like he knocked everybody out and there was all these bodies all over the floor. People like putting modesty Cloths all over him and stuff. And. And they're just out there asleep. So I had to like walk all over all these bodies to get back to my.

A (20:59)

You're like, oh, yeah, it's kind of embarrassing. It's almost a walk of shame. It was like.

B (21:03)

It was the most shameful walk I've ever taken at church.

A (21:06)

I guess I'm not.

B (21:07)

I guess I'm not. You know what really made me laugh at least kind of help break me.

A (21:11)

Out of it in the spirit. Yes.

B (21:13)

I remember thinking like, what if I step on. Because everybody had their hands out. Just kind of like lay down, Right. What if I step on someone's hand? Will I snap them out of it and then be like, ah. And then they'll go back in. Or would they be out like, oh, you stepped on my hand and now I'm no longer slain. I was like, how did you.

A (21:28)

Or like Stephen, the sinner. You know, old Steven Wilson Jr. Who can't even get the dark arts exercised out of him. He's over here waking up people who.

B (21:36)

Are doing well, breaking fingers with his. With his steel toed boots, shamefully walking back to his pew.

A (21:42)

I never thought about the walk of shame at church. What is a. What is a modesty cloth?

B (21:49)

Well, like sometimes a lady would get slain and she's wearing a skirt, you know, it's a Pentecostal church. And they, they cover and make sure.

A (21:57)

Like, oh, that's a lot of skirt, dude. We used to call them skirtings because they were so long, you know. And some of them would be actual curtains that they had taken off of a window somewhere. Some of them you'd even see like that stick. You know, the stick that's on the edge of a curtain that you can, like, if you turn it, it'll go up. Some of them. Yeah, you're just sitting over there.

B (22:14)

But the picture all string.

A (22:15)

Yeah. If you're trying to get a pin, you got to spin that thing for.

B (22:18)

A whole blinds underneath.

A (22:20)

Yeah, they got those vertical blinds.

B (22:23)

Really? Yeah, they cure you from blindness, dude.

A (22:26)

That's pretty funny, dude. Thinking about something like that. We're thinking about something that's funny. Together with somebody is something. That's awesome, dude.

B (22:33)

Yeah, it was like. It helped me get through it like the. Because like you said, there was a shamefulness to it, but it actually was kind of funny when I.

A (22:40)

So they put that modesty blanket on them.

B (22:42)

There's a modesty clock.

A (22:43)

That's good for that. Yeah, good for that. That at least. Yeah. Because there's Some guys and lurkers that would just be up there.

B (22:50)

Yeah, you never know. And like, like I said in those churches, like nothing. You didn't even show below the knee. So like if you, if your skirt, when it started to show some knee, they better get a cloth over that. You can't be seeing that kneecap.

A (23:02)

Oh yeah, boy, those. Oh. Oh. I remember being young and just. God, I was kind of like a. I guess like a little bit of a peeping time or whatever. I was like visually stimulated I called it. And had a step stool. But I remember for Christmas one year, I wanted a ladder. My one's like, what do you want a ladder for? Like, why do you want this little ladder? And I wanted to go. I'd go watch people and just watch in their houses. And I wasn't always looking for perks, reverse stuff. I was just looking. I liked watching people live. Right. Like I think I hated being at our house. It was like, it was like, it wasn't fun. It was just painful kind of a lot. And it was like always like aggressive and defensive. Like the second you were around, you had to be defensive. And so I would go watch as other people live. Like watch somebody just be, you know, or just watch some dad sit there in a chair, some mom make something or some kid just, you know, like usually it's like the living room or something. I wasn't getting real weird, but. But I love that kind of stuff, man. I love just kind of absorbing how other people operated. Yeah, that kind of stuff was interesting.

B (24:12)

You're a OG People watcher.

A (24:14)

Yeah, I was a bit of a. Yeah.

B (24:15)

I mean that's. I mean if.

A (24:17)

Get your ladder together, you know. Yeah, but get half a pop Tartania and get over there and just see what the.

B (24:22)

I find comedians are and songwriters in general are just like, they're people watchers. And then. And they watch so much people that they end up. These narratives start to show up and so you were probably just harnessing your skills for what was to come.

A (24:41)

Yeah, I think sometimes, yeah. You look back in your life and you're like, oh. So much of that was to. Was ammo to provide something. You already know it. But you should be reminded that Prize Picks is America's number one sports picks app. The app is really easy to use to create a player lineup. All you have to do is pick more or less on a few player stats. That's it. Prize Picks will give you fifty dollars in lineups. When you play your first five dollar lineup, win or lose, you get fifty bucks in lineups. Use promo code Theo when you download the app and sign up today. And on top of making lineups, you can now also pick teams on Prize picks. Pick the winner total and spread on everything from college football playoffs to combat sports to football and basketball. Team picks are now available in 30 states including California, Texas and Florida. Lastly, Prize Picks is in the middle of their holiday Pixmas promo for seven days leading into Christmas. Look for daily discounts, boosts and even a max discount dropping on Christmas Day. Prize Picks it's good to be right Play Responsibly I want to let you in on some information here when I need more Bitcoin. Moonpay is always the first app that I open because it doesn't force you to buy a whole coin and it's super easy to use. Moonpay is one of the biggest partners on this show and I'm excited to share that I've made the decision to accept my compensation from them in Bitcoin instead of US Dollars. I'm planning to hold and save that bitcoin in my Moon Pay account. The bitcoin will sit in a digital Moonpay wallet that nobody can access except for me. The US Dollar continues to fluctuate in value, so by making this decision, I'm diversifying my portfolio and hopefully earning more from our partnership than I would have otherwise. Remember, while Moonpay makes sense buying Crypto straightforward, it's essential to do your own research and understand the risks involved. Crypto trading can be volatile and you could lose your investment. Moonpay is a tool to facilitate your transactions, not a source of financial advice. Trade responsibly One thing you said that was interesting a little bit ago is you said that your dad, like your dad was a boxer and he did these things. And then sometimes you're living out some of your dad's dreams and I, I find that to be interesting that, that we feel like that as sons or that some sons feel that way. And then also that some dads will make sacrifices. Like you're saying, like, you know, and it wasn't like it was his choice that he made. You know, it wasn't like a sacrifice. But sometimes even with choices, then come sacrifices that you don't see and then you have to make another choice then as to what do I do here? But that like by giving, by giving birth to a son, by having an offspring, you are creating something that can go the next leg. Almost like it's a one of those races where they pass the baton. What Is that.

B (27:53)

Yeah, I think a baton race.

A (27:55)

Yeah, a baton race. And.

B (27:56)

Yeah.

A (27:57)

So, yeah, it's not hard. It's not as hard as this.

B (28:00)

I'm not sure. It may not be called that. It may be something. Something way more complex. There it is, a baton. A relay race.

A (28:09)

Relay race. But it's like, I can't. This is as far as I can get. And let me put this into you with. But then it's interesting, as the next runner, as the next generation is, what do I. Like, how much do I owe to this previous generation to carry on their dream? Do I owe anything? You know, what does it mean to be a son? Like, all those things kind of were popping into my head as you were.

B (28:29)

Saying that a generational relay race is not something I've put, you know, to thought regarding all that. But that. That is very, very accurate observation there because you. When you see a relay race, like the first runner or whatever, the runner before you. The runners before you, like, dictate how fast you're going to run, and they dictate your position in the. In the race.

A (28:55)

Yeah.

B (28:56)

So, like, if they're running with everything they got, well, then you're only, like, doing a disservice to their effort by not running with everything you got. Right. And so, yeah, that. That baton becomes something bigger than just this thing you're holding in your hand. It's like the. The sum of all their efforts.

A (29:13)

Yeah.

B (29:13)

And, you know.

A (29:15)

Yeah, I think we used to hear a lot more. I think when families, and this is a hypo hypothetical, but when families seemed closer and. And we needed more entertainment from our fathers and forefathers and we got lower, passed down and family history, when there was more story. You couldn't get as much storytelling from, like, phones and television and stuff as we can in the past few generations. But when it came from, like, those. The predecessors of ours and our forefathers and mothers, that. That kind of stuff, it, like, beat inside of us like a drum, you know? Yeah. What. What kind of. Did you feel a pressure, like. And did something. Your father passed away?

B (29:54)

Yeah, he passed away seven years ago at the age of 59. And it happened. Yeah, he was very young, and it was a sudden thing, and it was.

A (30:06)

Was he sick?

B (30:07)

Yeah, well, he had, like, this pulmonary fibrosis thing that was starting, but he ended up dying of a pulmonary, like, embolism, like a blood clot in his lungs. And so, yeah, it was. It was a very sudden thing that I don't think anybody really expected. And he was Living in Indiana. He was living in Southern Indiana and he was, you know, he was, you know, doing quite well and like, you know, everything kind of changed in about six months. And then he, you know, suddenly this, the symbolism showed up and I tried to get there because he, it was his, his body was like shutting down.

A (30:47)

What do you mean? So an embolism, can you bring it up just so I know? Trevin. Sorry to interrupt you, Stephen.

B (30:51)

No, don't.

A (30:51)

I'm just like, sometimes I, I've let information fly and I don't know what it is, is an embolism. A pulmonary embolism is a blood clot that travels to and blocks an artery in the lungs, cutting off normal blood flow and oxygen exchange and creating a potentially life threatening emergency. So had this been happening for a while and then it got bad?

B (31:10)

Yeah, and so he had had some, obviously some things going on that he never knew was happening and, and then, yeah, it got to that life threatening emergency point and then there is a point where they can only do so much and you know, he was a bit of a cowboy and you know, those kind of classic dudes that don't want to go to the doctor and I'll tough it out kind of thing. I'm sure there was a lot of that mentality going into it. Also there was poor health care. You know, that's, he was a victim of the American health care system too in that regard. I won't get into all that, but. But yeah, like that was, that was a big part of it.

A (31:52)

We've talked about that a lot over the years. It's a nightmare. And the stress they put people through trying to deal with their own taking care of themselves. It's like, yeah, it's a nightmare.

B (32:00)

Especially at his age, at 59, he was starting to feel like, oh, you're just like a forgotten human. They don't, you know, like, you know, they don't really want to take care of you. They want to do everything but that. Like you gotta fight tooth and nail to take care of yourself in that, at least where he was at that time. And yeah, I got a really panicked call from my sister that morning, said, you need to get here like now. Dad is very sick and we don't know what's happening. And they rushed him to the emergency room and I jumped in my car and sped up there and I said goodbye to him in the middle of Kentucky on the side of i65 on an iPhone 8 on the side of a highway and that was pulled over to make It.

A (32:48)

Quieter.

B (32:49)

Yeah. And just so I didn't lose signal. I was so worried that because, you know, the middle of Kentucky is the middle of nowhere, and, like, what if I dropped the call? Like. Yeah. And, you know, there was. So I just pulled over. Just. I mean, it was insane. I just.

A (33:03)

The.

B (33:04)

The sound of, like, semis flying by me at, like, 90 miles an hour, but literally being in a. I felt like I was in a bubble. Like, not like the world was. Like, the world stopped around me in that little car. Like, a semi could have taken the side of that car off. I wouldn't even had known it or, you know, I would have just. I was in a state of absolute shock and. And horror. It was a very traumatizing experience, but.

A (33:30)

And you were on a FaceTime call?

B (33:32)

No, it was just on a video or a normal phone call.

A (33:36)

Was he able to speak to you?

B (33:37)

He was. And he.

A (33:39)

Did he know that it could be, like, his last moment?

B (33:41)

He knew.

A (33:42)

He knew he was bothering you by asking you this.

B (33:43)

This. No, I. I talk about it a lot on stage. I kind of relive it every night. And that's been a. A challenge for me, like, mentally kind of. But it's been. But it's also been like, the beautiful part of unpacking trauma and grief because, you know, I'm not like, our. Our music, like, really, it finds the grieving, and I think it's. It's important for me to grieve as well. Like, I go through grief every night. But, you know, he was such a gangster in that moment. He knew he had maybe 90 seconds left on this earth. He knew he was going. Not just going, but going fast. He even told me. He's like, I'm going, Stephen. And sorry. But, yeah, he was. He was so calm about it. He said, everything's gonna be okay. That was his first thing he said. Like, such a dad thing to say. And he said, write a good song for me, Stephen. And he said, I love you. I love you. I love you, I love you four times.

A (34:57)

He wanted you to know for sure.

B (34:59)

Yeah. Like, he wanted there to be no doubt. And so I say it more than once all the time now, because from that experience, I kind of realized that people are counting, and I was counting. And it was weird. Like, on that last I love you, it's almost like his voice got quieter. Like he was literally being pulled. Like God was snatching him from the universe in that last I love you. And he was gone 30 seconds later. And that was it. I was the last person he spoke to. And I'm really grateful that I got to speak to him. And in that moment in that car, I was so angry at God, I was so angry at him. Even my dad. I was like, how dare you die on me like this? It wasn't supposed to happen. None of it was supposed to happen like that. I was under the impression he was invincible, first of all. And he was just so young, and he was just such a. You know, just such a lively. Such a bright light, so it just. It didn't seem possible. And even to people in my hometown, they were in disbelief when he died. Like, it was like, because his. His life force was so big that, like, people were in denial. It's like, that's impossible. There's no way he could be dead. Oh, like. And I was like, no, he. He really is. And it was a. A tough thing to really come to terms with, but with any great reaction or any, like, chemical reaction, there is a catalyst. And I have to say everything. The reason I'm here and the reason I'm anywhere right now is because of that conversation. It was, you know, you have a product and a reactant, and then there's a catalyst. And. And that. That conversation is what catalyzed my whole career, really. And. Yeah, that. Write. Write a good song for me, Stephen.

A (37:03)

Oh, was.

B (37:07)

Was like a lifetime's worth of jet fuel for me to charge across the galaxy and. And do everything I could to try and keep him alive. Oh, to try and just tell the world about him that, you know, carry out his wish. Yeah. I mean, what. And what I found out is like. Like carrying out his wish and. And keeping him alive was keeping so many other people that. That other folks have lost, other humans have lost alive. He was resurrecting other people at the same time. And these people were coming to shows with. With this. With this bounty of love that had no place to go. And that's what grief is, essentially. And. And I gave them, you know. You know, these songs have given them a home for at least maybe three and a half or four minutes. And. Oh, yeah, and that's been. That's really been the charge of all of this. That's been the mission statement is, you know, at the very beginning was just, keep dad alive. Keep him alive at all costs. And, you know, like, kind of a psychotic denial for the first couple years that he was even gone, I was like, no, he's. He's still around. And I. And a lot of times I felt him on my shoulders like a little kid. It was really weird. It was like this weird reversal of roles.

A (38:39)

And, well, now that he's free, he kind of could do as he wants. You know, he could be on your shoulders.

B (38:43)

Yeah. He would show up like that. And the reason why I play this song, Stand By Me, it's just literally I. Two weeks after he died, I was scheduled to play this songwriter festival on Deadwood, South Dakota. And it's a. You know, it's in the Black Hills, and it's a very spiritually charged area just in general.

A (39:02)

Yeah, for sure it is.

B (39:03)

And the guy that runs it says, you don't have to play any music. I know you're in a bad, bad spot. I hadn't slept in a week. And. And he's like, just come here and, you know, see what happens. You know, just be around people like, there's nothing but love for you here, and we know you've gone through it. And at the end of the festival, they asked, you know, all the writers and stuff there if you wanted to play a cover. What's your favorite cover that you love? And they did this big finale. I'd been. For some reason, for about a year prior to my dad's death, I'd been singing this song, Stand By Me, in my living room, the exact way I play it now.

A (39:44)

It just popped in your head to come. It just kind of came in you.

B (39:46)

Yeah. And, like, for some reason, I was like, that song has haunted me my whole life because of the movie Stand By Me.

A (39:52)

Oh, that's.

B (39:52)

Sure.

A (39:53)

Yeah. That's a big part of a lot of people's. That movie was huge in people's lives for so many little moments.

B (39:58)

Yeah. Like, I very much saw myself in the. The kid on the left. The Gordy La Chance. No. Oh, what's his name? Will Wheaton. Like the writer. The writer that was trying to find a voice. The nerdy little writer kid on the left.

A (40:12)

Yeah.

B (40:12)

And that song, like, was threaded so brilliantly throughout that film, and it's obviously the title, but because of that movie, which is also a Stephen King story. That movie is based off a Stephen King novella called the Body. So, you know, it was obviously a very haunting and dark theme. But, you know, that song really haunted me because of that movie. And I just started playing it. I was, like, trying to, I don't know, kind of deconstruct it, try to process it in a different way. And when my dad died, Fast forward to Deadwood. All I could play was Stand By Me.

A (40:48)

Wow.

B (40:49)

And I started playing it, and I'd really never played it for anybody like that. And the whole place, like, just went crazy, like. And at that point, I was not an artist. I. I just quit my job as a scientist. I just. I've been a published writer for maybe two years at that point, just trying to get other artists to sing my songs. And I never really saw myself as an artist, even though my dad did. Like, he would always be like, why don't you just sing these songs? You sound great singing them. But I would always argue with him, like, no, I don't do that. I write them, someone else sings them. But when I went up there to sing Stand By Me, I swear to God, he was, like, on my shoulders like a little kid, and I got so addicted to that feeling again. Yeah. Like, because he.

A (41:37)

He.

B (41:37)

I mean, he was there. He showed up, and I. I truly believe he showed up at Bridgestone, at the cmas. Like, he. He did. He showed up that night and.

A (41:46)

Oh, I bet he was so proud of you. Do you feel like he's proud of you?

B (41:49)

Yeah, I think so. Yeah. He. He was so proud of me before he died, before any of this happened. And I think, yeah, he. Yeah, he would be very proud. I've been trying to make him proud my whole life, but.

A (42:05)

What did he said? Write a song for me or make us. What did he say? Sorry, I'm leaking over here.

B (42:09)

No, man, I leak all the time.

A (42:11)

I. Yeah, dude. I listen to stuff that makes me cry all the time because I think I'm just full of tears and I got to get these out, even though I'm dehydrated half the time, so I'm like. I don't even know what's going on here, dude.

B (42:21)

No, I. It's good for you. Like, I. When my dad died, I swear, all I did was cry. For two years. I. Like, it's all I did.

A (42:31)

Get it out.

B (42:31)

If you have. If you can find the tears, find them, like, right now. I. I can't find them.

A (42:36)

Yeah.

B (42:36)

I mean, even though I. I get emotional, don't get me wrong, but.

A (42:40)

Yeah, sometimes you have tears and sometimes you don't. It's like, almost like seasons, you know, it's almost like an ocean. Sometimes it comes up on the shore, and sometimes it's out to sea, you know, Even though it's. You know, it lives, right? Yeah. So it's like. And especially, I think people that have had, like, a lot of things in their life that have happened that haven't been processed, you know, it takes a long time, and I Think I've gotten grateful in my life over.

B (43:04)

Over.

A (43:04)

Over time. Where There. If I find something that helps me process, I'll sit there and process it. My brother says a lot of times he's like, yeah, getting rid of grief and like.

B (43:14)

Like.

A (43:14)

Like trauma, like that old stuff, and people use trauma as a buzzword, but getting rid of grief and stuff from the past, he's like, it's like taking pennies out of a bathtub one at a time. He's like, you know, it just. It takes a long time, and it's slow, and it's just kind of arduous work, but. But you just be grateful that. That it can kind of happen over time. What he said, make a good song for me.

B (43:36)

Write a good song.

A (43:37)

Write a good song.

B (43:37)

Yeah. Because he knew that's what I was. That's all I could think about. And that's the baton, man.

A (43:42)

That's the baton.

B (43:43)

Yeah. He used to come to my, like, all my shows. When I say shows, like, playing for seven people at Writers Round. Or like. And he came to the Bluebird Cafe. I remember, like, had his giant. When they had those giant phones that were, like, the size of laptops, you know?

A (44:00)

Oh, those T. Mobile Sidekicks. Yeah, baby. Them was beautiful.

B (44:03)

Yeah. He had one of those bad boys, and he would just hold it up and record the whole show. But he used to drive me crazy.

A (44:09)

Oh, dude. There's nothing crazier than watching, like, a boomer kind of, like, record something, or even just somebody from a generation above or just. We went to the UFC fights the other day, and some guy was recorded every single fight. I'm like, he had a front row seat and he was recording, and there was a TV right next to him playing the fights. I'm like, you can just go home and watch. Like, I just didn't understand what was going on, but the fact that he was there and that he cared so much about it and that he loved watching you do it. Yeah.

B (44:36)

There was this one song that's on the record called I'm A Song.

A (44:40)

Oh, yeah.

B (44:41)

And he. He watched me play that for the first time at Bluebird Cafe. I just written it, like, that week right over here. Yeah, Cafe. And he had his giant, gigantic phone, I'll never forget. And I was like, dad, please put your phone down. But he recorded that whole song. And then he called me, like, you know, a week later, kept talking about that song, and. And about a month before he died, it was Father's Day weekend, I came up to see him, and we Went to a tractor pool, and then we went home and watched some fights. And he goes, hey, Steven, you know that song you played, the Bluebird, like, a month ago? It's called I'm A Song. And I was like, whoa. How do you even know that? Like, I. You know, because I was in that point of, like, writing, you know, 200 songs a year. I was writing, you know, 10 songs a week. So, like, a month ago, like, that I'm A song was like, 50 songs ago. So I was like, oh, yeah, yeah, I know that. And he's like, yeah, you played at the Bluebird Cafe. And he's like, that's. That's my favorite song. I was like, oh, thank you, dad. And you're like, I thought he meant, like, it's my favorite song. His favorite song of mine. And he was like, no, you listen to me. That's my favorite song ever.

A (45:59)

Wow.

B (45:59)

And I was like, how are you even listening to it? He'd been listening to me play it on the Bluebird at the Bluebird, on his gigantic T. Mobile. T. Mobile. Whatever that thing is. And. And that's how he was.

A (46:11)

He was.

B (46:12)

He was actually my first fan. And he was the. You know, he. He would breathe so much life into me. He. He believed in me so much more than I ever believed in myself. And. And I remember him saying, you should sing that song. And when he died, I sang it at his funeral, and it was one of the hardest songs I've ever sang. But in that moment, like, that was. That was when I knew things were about to change. But, yeah, and that song has helped so many people, and it's. I don't know. It's been a bit of a thesis statement for me. And so when he said, write a good song for me, he knew I was. He knew I had already written one, at least in his eyes, because it was his favorite song ever. So he knew, at least he had proof on his phone that I was capable of writing something great. And he. I guess his last charge was to please keep going and don't stop. And as a. You know, it's got to feel good.

A (47:19)

For him to be like. Even in a moment, like. I mean, that's crazy to say this. What am I talking about? But in a moment of leaving the earth to know that you have a son or someone who can. Who, you know, you've created, that's capable. You know, you have a child that you believe is capable. I wonder what. You know what I'm saying? Or something like that.

B (47:39)

No. Yeah. And My other siblings are also very capable. He's very proud of all of us equally. But I think he knew something about me was different very young. I was a very quiet kid, a very nerdy kid. I was. I had his name and his eyes, but, you know, outside of that, we were so different. So he. He. I think he just knew I was gonna do something different.

A (48:04)

He just probably intrigued, I bet.

B (48:05)

Yeah. And I, like, picked up guitar and taught myself, and he was, like, just always mesmerized by, like, my musical ability because it seemed like magic to him because it was. It was God given it. Like, I. Nobody taught me how to do this.

A (48:20)

Really?

B (48:21)

Yeah.

A (48:21)

Oh, you just picked it up and started playing?

B (48:23)

Yeah, for the most part, yeah. I learned some tableture and. And. But, you know, I sucked real bad then. But that was you right here? Yeah. That's probably like a week after I got my first guitar. And if that even let me.

A (48:35)

A couple of days.

B (48:44)

Then. We're watching her on his family. Yep. Yeah, that's lithium.

A (48:49)

Yeah.

B (48:51)

Yeah.

A (48:52)

Who is that? Is that your dad now?

B (48:54)

No, this is some random old dude. And this is after my dad had passed away. Like, none of this stuff, like, on my whole music. None. I didn't have any music out when he was alive.

A (49:04)

Oh, okay. So they're just packaging this all up.

B (49:07)

Yeah, this is all, like, obviously VHS footage from when I was a kid. That's me getting my first guitar for my 16th birthday, even though I look like I'm 12.

A (49:14)

Look how hot. Look, go back. Look, hold on. Yeah, hold on. Right, a little more. Right there. Look how you can see, though, how happy it.

B (49:23)

Cool.

A (49:24)

Yeah, you can see for a second. See if you can catch his face a second earlier. Maybe a second later, it was you right there. You can just see how happy he is, you know? That's cool, dude.

B (49:33)

Thank you.

A (49:34)

I'm gonna be cool now. Oh, it's so fun, dude.

B (49:37)

I might actually have. Have. You know, I might actually be able to talk to a girl now.

A (49:41)

Oh, dude. Yeah. At least if you walk up with a guitar, at least you're just like, hey. At least they'll be like, hey, what do you do? You know what I'm saying? At least you have some sort of semblance instead of hiding, putting hair in your eyes and hiding behind it.

B (49:53)

I said nothing to nobody.

A (49:55)

Oh, dude, that was most of my childhood when I. But when I was growing up, I was thinking about, what do you. What are the responsibilities of a son? You know, people don't think about that a lot. I think about, what, do my parents owe me a lot as a kid? Or I have. Have probably, you know, like, my parents didn't do this or my parents didn't do that, you know, that's been, you know, or some things didn't happen and should have happened. That's fair. But when I start to harp on the other stuff and it gets into this, like, oh, woe is me or pity me type of thing, you know, that can be kind of a unsafe area to go into, but the two can be easily connected. Like things that, yes, a parent should do these things, or those things should be. A child's life should include these things, and they don't happen. And then, well, a parent. They don't owe you these things, but attaching those together. But I never think about, like, what is it? What are my responsibilities as a son, you know, or as a child, you know, I'm saying you don't think that because at a certain point, you do have some responsibility in it yourself, you know.

B (50:54)

Yeah, I mean, I've. I've had a lot of thought about that, and, you know, I grew up thinking the same thing as you, like, maybe, you know, things should have been different or. But at the same time, I tend to think about my parents as children because they had me as children. They were like, it was a shotgun wedding. My mama was six months pregnant. They were teenagers having babies. And so I also think about them like, oh, my gosh. Like, I have a lot of sympathy for them as I was older, but, you know, growing up, I had anger and resentment towards certain things that I did not understand. But I've kind of tried to, you know, understand that, you know, it's very, like, biological about, like, kind of how fathers and sons are just children and their parents in the. In the. In the beginning of your. Your father is, like, superhuman, or he's a superhero, or, like, humanize, demonize and idolize is kind of how I put it down. So in the beginning, you idolize your father, and you idolize everything they do. I remember idolizing my father, like, wanting to be a boxer, just like him, wanting to do so many things like him. And I would hide in his shadow, and I idolized him my whole childhood. And then once I got into my teen years, that's when that separation starts to begin and you start to demonize your parents, and you go through this whole demonization of your father or your parents, and it's actually very biological. This is how genetic diversity was spread, because we're a tribal species. So the young boy, your young man in his reproductive years would start to demonize the parents and get away from the tribe and go join another tribe.

A (52:58)

So he can procreate.

B (53:00)

So it can procreate and create genetic diversity.

A (53:02)

Right. Because if he procreates too close to his own tribe, he also risks like. Yeah.

B (53:06)

Inbreeding.

A (53:07)

Yeah, like the guy that taught me how to drive.

B (53:09)

Yeah, exactly.

A (53:09)

And I'm not saying no shade, Brandon. I think he was bred properly. It was just, you know, God put some odd paints in his, in his palate.

B (53:16)

We love you, Brandon.

A (53:17)

Yeah, we do. We do love you. And actually he passed away a few years ago and we do love you. He's a special guy.

B (53:21)

I'm so sorry, Brandon, but. But yeah, and then, as you know, I think, think eventually you come back home. There's always like this prodigal son kind of moment and that's where you humanize your father. Because that's what happened with me. Like, you know, you start off as a kid idolizing it. You get to teenage years, those years that I, you know, he got me that guitar. I was probably going to start demonizing him soon and he wanted to at.

A (53:43)

Least have a backbeat for it.

B (53:44)

Yeah, exactly. Something that like demonize. Put all those, those angsty lyrics.

A (53:49)

Put those, put that anger to lyrics.

B (53:51)

Yeah. You know, let's make it a bop. And then, and then I remember when I was 25, like I was sitting on the porch with my dad and I just remembered, I was like, you're just a dude.

A (54:02)

Oh, yeah.

B (54:03)

And that's when I, the humanization hit and I was like, you're just another dude doing the best you can. And, and I could see it in his eyes. And we were just kind of like, we were, you know, the father and son dynamic was still there, but he was now a friend and something bigger than a father.

A (54:19)

He's another human, like you're saying another human. And that's a tough moment. It's an interesting moment too to look at because it's almost, it almost breaks down the wars you were fighting or the whatever, you know, it breaks down like a lot.

B (54:32)

Everything.

A (54:33)

Right. It breaks down the pedestal you held this person on. In a way. In a way, some of it. But it also breaks down if you've been demonizing it. Like, well, who am I fighting? I'm not fighting against, you know, the 20, the 32 year old dad, the guy that I knew who like walked by me and didn't glance or whatever your thoughts are, whatever your whatever. Like you're envisioning that's not there anymore.

B (54:54)

Yeah.

A (54:55)

You know, and it's like, then what? Then this whole like baton that I'm still carrying of anger. It's not even real.

B (55:00)

Yeah.

A (55:01)

So what's really happening here with me? And that's like a moment you kind of have to look at yourself as well. And that's kind of painful.

B (55:07)

Yeah, it was, it's very much a self reflective moment. And you kind of start to see kind of like, man, I was a selfish little shit or I was, you know, maybe you were justified in certain areas, but. Or yeah, at the end of the day, they're just another human doing the best they can, just like you.

A (55:25)

And who am I going to be now? That's the thing too. Yeah. And sometimes I go back and I put on my old, my. Sometimes I go back and I'm the same person. But more often than not, these days I do a decent job of like, well, let me be the leader. Instead of saying, you should have led me or you should let me, let me grow up. It's like, how many times do, am I gonna fucking miss the grow up bus? You know, like, I'm on it, but still sometimes I'll stop, be there at the stop in the morning and I'll be like, nah, I'll let that go today. You know what I'm saying? I ain't getting on that today. So some of that's interesting and it's interesting to look at and you're still just a human looking at it and trying to figure it out.

B (56:04)

Yeah, yeah, well, it's, it's, I think all part of the journey. And like. Yeah, it all, it's, it's rooted in something very old. Like I always thought like that teen angst thing was like something created in the 90s or something. It's like, no, this is pre biblical. This is, this is something that's been going on for a long time. Yeah. If you study primates enough and you, you, you can really kind of see a lot of, you can learn a lot about humans by studying primates because they're also, you know, we're technically primates too. And.

A (56:35)

Yeah, there's rumors.

B (56:36)

There's rumors. Yeah. I mean we're all part of the animal kingdom, kingdom Animalia. And we are of the, you know, we were technically of the greater apes. That's what they call us.

A (56:47)

What do you think happened? Do you think, do you think we, what do you think there about evolution? Because it's so tricky, you know, it's so like, because we're the only people that are out here, it feels like suffering like this sometimes.

B (57:00)

Can I take a piss and get back to this question? Because this is gonna. This has got an answer.

A (57:04)

Yeah. Let's take a break and piss, man. Yeah.

B (57:08)

When the holidays start to feel a bit repetitive, reach for a Sprite Winter.

A (57:12)

Spiced Cr Cranberry and put your twist on tradition. A bold Cranberry and Winter Spice Flavor Fusion Sprite Winter Spice Cranberry is a.

B (57:22)

Refreshing way to shake things up.

A (57:24)

This sip and season and only for a limited time.

B (57:27)

Sprite obey your thirst.

A (57:31)

With the New year upon us, sometimes you gotta think about your new moves. How you gonna do things different? Especially if you're running an online business or considering it. Whether it's dropping new stuff or looking over how you did and strategizing from there or just figuring out why the heck those pocket T shirts sold out. Shopify is like your co founder that doesn't ask for a cut, helps you plan, keeps the whole situation rolling smooth and lets you keep building your empire without pulling your hair out over spreadsheets. Shopify makes it easy. That's why we use them. It's just less chaos, more hey, I can actually do this. You don't need to be a coder or a designer. Shopify's got templates galore. Pick what fits your vibe. Make your shop look smart. No sweat. Whether you've got an idea rattling around or you're really just about to launch your own brand, there's never been an easier way to do it. Check out shopify.com theo and see just how simple it is to get your thing out there, there. Let's see what you can build with Shopify. Riding Shotgun Is pornography causing a problem in your life? Do you find yourself watching porno for longer periods of time and having trouble stopping? Is porn affecting your relationship or dating life? Well, you're certainly not alone. Watching pornography has become so commonplace today and oftentimes men use porn to numb the pain of loneliness, boredom, anxiety and depression. Shame and stigma prevent men from talking about these issues and getting help for them. I want to introduce you to my friend Steve. Steve is the founder of Valor Recovery, a program to help men overcome porn abuse and sexual compulsivity. Steve is a long term Sexual Recovery member and has personally overcame the emotional and spiritual despair of abusing pornography and has dedicated his life to empowering men to do the same. Steve is an amazing person and he is a close friend of mine. I mean that Valor Recovery helps men to Develop the tools necessary to have a healthier sex life. Their coaches are in long term recovery and will be your partner, mentor, and spiritual guide to transcend these problematic behaviors. To learn more about valor recovery, please Visit them at www.valorrecoverycoaching.com or email them at adminallor recovery coaching.com. thank you. There you go, brother. Popping into that Celsius, brother. I'll have a little with you.

B (60:27)

There you go.

A (60:27)

Stephen Wilson Jr. Right there. Yeah, I remember. I came to. And we just took a bathroom break, and Stephen put on a nice sweater.

B (60:36)

Yeah, I did. It's a. It's nice. It looks like my. My grandma's curtain. So it feels.

A (60:42)

Oh, yeah, dude. My grandmother, she. My grandfather worked at a factory in their town. It was a small town called Wyoming. Illinois is real small. And. But it was nice when we went there because it just. The world kind of made sense there a little more. It was like a safe place to be. They had a park right across the street, and they had a garden where, like, most people had gardens where they grew, like, strawberries and tomatoes. Everybody had tomato plants, cherry tomato plants. And the summers, the roads would bubble in the summer from the tar. And so it was, like, kind of crazy because every now and then, you'd somehow. You'd be an idiot at least once a year, and you would run across to the park, but you would not have your shoes on. And you would hit that road and you would literally. You would have what we called NAACP feet, you know, and it was. I don't know if that's a racially charged term or not. I don't think it is. I think it's safe. But yeah, you would get. You would just. And. But the crazy part is, once you got the naac, you'd be faster at the park. And that was the craziest part, too.

B (61:41)

Yeah, you got that extra soul now.

A (61:43)

It is. That's what it was.

B (61:44)

Yeah, you're like, you got something to grip now.

A (61:47)

Oh, you went my grandmother bio holes. Yeah. You were locked.

B (61:51)

Like you got a free pair of Nikes.

A (61:53)

Yeah, you did, bro. But there was so many fun things just about being in, like, a small midwestern community, the safety of it, the bike riding, the, like, baseball cards. Dude, we would go to this place. They had a dime.

B (62:08)

Smell of them shitty chewing gum in the pack. That was so stale.

A (62:13)

It was so gross. You'd eat it, chew it.

B (62:14)

Every time.

A (62:15)

Yes.

B (62:15)

I'm like, every time. I don't care how bad about it is.

A (62:17)

Sometimes it would just Disintegrate.

B (62:19)

Yeah. Somebody, like, break off and like, like you could. You could open a box with it and.

A (62:25)

Yeah, you could, dude. And it's. Every card was Mark Grace. I felt like every card was Mark Grace or Sean Dunston or Chris Sabo.

B (62:34)

They were all Wade Boggs.

A (62:36)

Yes.

B (62:36)

Yeah. Sabo. Gosh, man, you're dropping heat.

A (62:40)

Well, dude, I mean, your song 1994 was like. It's just one of the best pieces of nostalgia. Like, I remember. Yeah, I remember, like, when I was a kid, my mom had this rug in her room, and it was like a. I think it was a cow. I don't know where. Where she got it from or something. It was kind of like a prized possession. It was just like a cow skin rug. It could have been a damn dalmatian or something. I don't know. It looked like. Could have been a big dalmatian. It could have been. It could have been a great day. And we got swimming swindled. But anyway, she said it was a cow. And I would lay there and I would, like, put my face right, and I would inhale it. And like. Because I didn't get to spend a lot of time with my mom, but sometimes at night, like, she would put on hand cream or something, and that was like a big thing. When I was a kid, hand cream came out for women. And so women were always just put. I mean, God. God. I'd be like, mom, do you love me? And she'd be like, well, hold on, let me put this hand cream on. You know, it was. Yeah, yeah. It was just that she had. Every woman at the time had to have hand cream. It's like she. They couldn't even cook anymore because they couldn't open the, The. The cupboards because they just were too. They would slip out of their hands. I think women were just looking for an excuse to get out of the kitchen. I can't pick up a pot. Yeah, absolutely.

B (63:59)

I'll drop it.

A (63:59)

I have too much hang.

B (64:00)

Everything's cast iron back then.

A (64:02)

It was like we came paint. Yeah, we can't afford to lose any of this. But I would lay in there and I would, like, put my face on the carpet, like on the rug, and I would inhale that smell of, like, leather and. And I would just kind of pretend that, like, I lived in, like, a different world or that, like. Like we didn't have a dad around. So I don't know if I'd pretend like there was like, this manly energy or just something, you know, it would kind of like, the smell would fuel my imagination, you know, And I would just fantasize that, like, we lived on, like, a Ponderosa or that we lived out in, like, New Mexico or Texas or something, you know, or like, I don't know, just that things were different. But there was something about when you were a kid or when you were young and just putting your face on the carpet. It was like we used to do. There wasn't. You weren't on your phone all the time. And tv, you couldn't just have whatever you wanted. So you, you would just do kind of crazy things.

B (64:59)

You look under the couch just to see what was under there. Like, nobody does that anymore anymore.

A (65:03)

Yeah, like, yeah, that was exciting. That was almost like taking a vacation or whatever. Looking under there.

B (65:08)

Get a flashlight, man. Blow your mind. Like, oh, there's a whole other world under here. Like spiders. There's like, yes, you'd be curious, you.

A (65:17)

Were curious about the things you had in your own world. And you'd ask mama, what is this for? Why do we have this? There was just a lot more, like, the storytelling you needed. It was like, more prevalent, you know, and you had to tell a story. You had to have some value. Like, we created the stories. There wasn't like the Internet where you could just go and like, oh, share this link. You know, we, like, that's why the storytellers were so valuable then, because it was like, oh, you got to ask him. The only way you're going to hear this is if you ask him, you know, or her, and they're going to tell you about it. And, man, that was the best.

B (65:48)

Do you think it's maybe, maybe out of place here, but, you know, because I feel like stand up comedy and songwriting is kind of our last kind of. That's our, that's our, you know, that is our storytelling now. Because, yeah, like, you're right, people don't pass down those stories generally anymore like they used to. And I wonder if people are craving comedy and creating songwriting. Craving songwriting in the, in the same way that, you know, we, we used to. Because there maybe is a lack of that. Those stories being passed down and that. Because I feel like, you know, great comedians are great storytellers and great songwriters are great storytellers.

A (66:30)

And.

B (66:31)

And that is something that our culture is really not latching on to, is telling stories even, like a good joke. It's hard to find somebody, you know, when I was growing up, there would always be, like, somebody that would just have like a thousand jokes. Oh, and they weren't Comedians. They weren't professional comedians and they, they weren't wanting to be and. But they just had a myriad of jokes which are basically stories. Like, they would go, you know, they would infuse the jokes into the stories. Like you wouldn't know if they were telling the truth or not.

A (67:02)

Oh, yeah.

B (67:03)

And I was like, it's kind of a lost art that you don't really see, like, happening a lot anymore.

A (67:08)

And yeah, they had good storyteller. Well, storytelling was a big thing. Well, I think this is a. This is a more general way to look at it. I think we've lost some creativity.

B (67:16)

Yeah.

A (67:17)

And I think we've lost creativity in a lot of ways. I think it's one of the reasons why Los Angeles has struggled in some ways ways. Because in the beginning, Hollywood. Hollywood has kind of struggled in some ways. And I say this, like, in the sense that it started to feel super uncreative out there. Right. And I don't mean to speak bad on that, but I just think it's a note for that we've just, We've. We're missing some creativity in the world, and I think the gatekeepers of creativity are starting to fall. So I think you are like. I think we're in a desperate place for creativity and for authenticity, where creativity. You feel like it's. There's something genuine about it. Yeah, maybe. I don't know.

B (67:59)

That's a great question, man. I, you know, I think authentic is, like you said, is because it's really hard to authenticate anything anymore. It's kind of hard to find out what is real and. And what is not. And, you know, I, I tend to authenticate things with emotions and experience. Like, if I write a song, I, I kind of have to write it from. I can't write or perform anything that I cannot authenticate from my own experiences and my own emotions.

A (68:32)

So did that make it tough for you to write songs for other people?

B (68:35)

I think that was a big challenge for me trying to get other people to see the authentic authentication of my emotions and. And finding that authenticity within themselves, perhaps. And, and that alignment happening, for sure, was a difficult challenge.

A (68:52)

And, and for you, say you write a song, you. Somebody takes it or somebody accepts it, you know, as a. And they're going to cut it. And then you're like, it doesn't really fit that person. That's a nightmare too, that you don't think about. And then it's really tough as. Did it ever happen to you?

B (69:06)

You? Yeah, I did. And I mean, and but, you know, I think a lot of it is they weren't able to authentic. Authenticate the emotion that I. That. That the music had come from, that it had originated from. And that's not their fault, and it's really not mine. It was just kind of the nature of the business. But, yeah, I think, you know, it's tough. If I've had any advantage as, like, the only way I can create a song is.

A (69:33)

Is.

B (69:34)

Is I have to authenticate it in something truly real. I can't, like, I can't do fantasy music. I can't, like, I can't be, like, something. I can't be Superman. I can't be a Marvel character, and I can't play something I'm not.

A (69:49)

I think it's because there's too much of you already, who you are, that I don't even think, you know, it would fit. You're just a rare foot. You know what I'm saying? So it's like a rare foot. It's like, yeah, some feet, it can be like, oh, we'll put it in some.

B (70:01)

Something.

A (70:01)

It'll look good here. It'll look good here. But I think when you're like, no, that's. That's.

B (70:07)

Yeah. I was called different a lot as a kid. It was not a compliment most of the time. It was really. But I have to say, it has been an advantage of. As of late, and, like, being the weirdo finally helped out and.

A (70:20)

Oh, for sure. You know, for so long, you're Clark Canon. You're in there just, you know, changing clothes in a phone booth or whatever, and people like, this guy is a pervert or whatever. And then eventually you come out and think some things turn. Start to fit. I've heard you say. I've heard you say that songwriting kind of was like a survival tool for you. That's the right words. No.

B (70:41)

Yeah, it was like. It was my therapy, especially in those first couple years after my dad died. Like, I. I kind of. I used science and songwriting at the same time because I have a lot of training in science. I went and got a science degree. I worked.

A (70:58)

Would you go to Purdue?

B (70:59)

No, I went to mtsu.

A (71:01)

Oh, you did?

B (71:01)

Yeah. And I worked at Mars, the food company and R D for them as a food scientist.

A (71:08)

Mars Candies.

B (71:09)

Yeah.

A (71:09)

Research and development for them.

B (71:10)

Yeah, they're based. They're based.

A (71:12)

Snickers, huh?

B (71:13)

They do. But I actually worked in. I worked in pet food for them, which is based out here in Nashville. The Nashville area.

A (71:19)

At least you were snacking on that, huh?

B (71:22)

Yep, that's me right there.

A (71:23)

I wouldn't even go to work if that's all they had in the damn snack bar.

B (71:26)

Yeah, and they, they did. They had like buckets of Snickers. I put on like £30.

A (71:31)

Oh, I was talking about my pet food. No.

B (71:32)

Oh, yeah.

A (71:34)

I'm like, I'd wear, if I ate that much fat food, I'd wear a damn. I'd wear a damn helmet too.

B (71:38)

That's insane. People did eat pet food there. I saw it.

A (71:42)

Would they, Would some people try a little, get used to it?

B (71:43)

Yeah, I'd see some people do it. Like some. Sometimes like, you know, you'd see some high level people do it too. Like it's like, you don't need to do this, dude.

A (71:50)

Oh, that's just cracker Jack Russell.

B (71:52)

You know, they're just trying to like, you know, get down, you know, get down with us a little bit.

A (71:57)

Oh yes. Some people love animals so much they'll have a, you know, there's people that even videos of people that will snack with them and have those little treats.

B (72:04)

Yeah. I don't advise it from a microbiological perspective, really because I have a micro degree as well. I wouldn't eat raw cat, like wet cat food. I mean it does go through like a.

A (72:15)

Makes my wiener soft, brother. I'll tell you that out the gate.

B (72:18)

But I did see dudes eating it.

A (72:19)

Would you?

B (72:20)

Yeah, like with a spoon. Like wet cat food. I, I think it was a flex.

A (72:26)

No, there's a flex.

B (72:27)

Yeah.

A (72:28)

Is there one type that's the good type? Take me through some of that.

B (72:32)

No, it's all as far as like cat food to eat.

A (72:35)

Yeah. Gets a little snack.

B (72:37)

No, I don't want to try none of it because I knew what was in that and, and I knew like what was in like, like proteins and like all that that goes into those foods and, and I understood all the kill steps and stuff were there, but I also know that my digestive tract is far different from a felines or canines and we ain't made to eat what they're made to eat, so. So yeah, I didn't really, I did not partake. But yeah, you'd see a dude like take a big spoonful of cat food and then like drive off in his Lamborghini because, you know, it was usually like a high level person.

A (73:13)

Yes.

B (73:13)

Like it's a power. It was, it was a power move. Yeah, it was impressive though.

A (73:17)

I was like, damn, dude, I was just talking to my friend this morning. At breakfast about things that the powerful do and why they operate certain ways. Because it's like, yeah, what can I do? How weirder could this get if you have everything. If the. If the basic, like, I need to make money to survive, I need to feed my family. Or once you have, like, I have seven wives living in different cities, I'm gonna live in a jet or I live in a. Some people might be living on other planets now. They don't even know.

B (73:41)

Got their own islands.

A (73:42)

Yes. And it's like, then what? Yeah. At this point, yes, I'm having cat food, but I'm with the greatest cat food ever. I want cat food that cats can't even afford to eat.

B (73:50)

Yeah. And sometimes they pretend like they could discern between. Be like, they're not gonna like this. I was like, you're not a cat. Like, how do you eat?

A (74:01)

That's for cats.

B (74:02)

He's like saying, like. He's basically stating he's eaten so much this food, he can now discern between what will work and what will not.

A (74:10)

Oh, that's good.

B (74:11)

Yeah, this is.

A (74:12)

Oh, that's good, huh?

B (74:13)

Oh, that's good. They're gonna talk this.

A (74:15)

Yeah, yeah. Himalayan cats are gonna love this tilapia aftertaste. What. What was a product that you guys made while you were there? Do you remember one product that kind of came?

B (74:23)

Yeah, it's called Dentistix Fresh. It's still on the market. I see it out there.

A (74:26)

And it's for animals.

B (74:27)

Yeah, it's for dogs.

A (74:28)

It's a.

B (74:29)

It's a. Basically a teeth cleaning, dental chew. That's pretty cool. Very digestible. There it is. That's my baby right there.

A (74:37)

Oh, yeah, I've seen that before.

B (74:39)

Yeah, that was one of my products that I launched from start to finish and. Yeah, that's cool. It's cool. It's cool to see it kind of out there still. Still doing its thing.

A (74:51)

Yeah. At the end of a show, you hum, hum some of those out in the audience.

B (74:54)

Yeah. I probably need to start chucking them out there. Like, take a bite out.

A (74:58)

I'll catch one. Dude. I call on stage, catch one in my mouth.

B (75:01)

I would eat one of those if I had. Had to. But I wouldn't eat none of that cat food.

A (75:05)

That's fair.

B (75:05)

And look, I love to use mostly like, flour. That's mostly wheat flour and. And got, you know, it ain't got the same ingredients at cats.

A (75:13)

Did you ever pitch a product that they didn't like? Or are you allowed to pitch products? You did?

B (75:16)

Yeah. I did. I pitched a lot of products, but at the end of the day, I was the geeky scientist. And they're like, you need to make what you. You need to make. And they. They have a. A much higher, I think, a greater understanding of what the market requires than some of us geeky scientists do. I had my own lab, and I would come up with these new things and new designs and pitch them in my free time. And there was a lot of creativity to it. And that was. There's actually a lot more creativity to analysis than you think. And there's a lot more analysis to creativity than you think. I think the two can work very well together. And, like, back to what I was saying, but, like, when my dad died, I was able to kind of apply science and songwriting because I was, like, so devastated. But, like, I was kind of able to metaphorically put a lab coat on and go into researcher mode. And. And that's kind of where the songs came from. I just started, like, looking at my pain from another perspective, like, trying to look at it from the outside in, like, as a. An observer, and then just kind of documenting my findings as I went. Like, I spent four years making this record, Son of Dad. And like, two or three of those years were research years. Just me documenting everything I was going through.

A (76:44)

Wow.

B (76:45)

And keeping, you know, meticulous records, like scientists do. But I was channeling that into songs instead of, like, you know, a pet food product. But I was still using the same methodology, like, because I. I had to be true to it. Because that's the thing about science. It's just a truth detection tool. It's not an ideology or a paradigm. It's just. It's just a effective tool if it's used correctly.

A (77:09)

It's like a metal detector, you know?

B (77:10)

Yeah, exactly. Or a chainsaw, even. If you use it great, it can be great. But if you use it right, it can be great. If you use it wrong, it might, like, cut your damn hand off. Like, science created the atomic bomb. It's also created cures for incurable diseases that we thought it's a beautiful thing, but at the end of the day, it's just a tool for detecting truth. And I used it like that. So I would have this question, and I'd have my observations, and then I would create a hypothesis, as you would say, which would basically be a song, a song title, an idea, and I would go. Go out and test it in the world. I'd play in front of seven people here, 10 people there, seven people here. Seven people there. And I would get instant data, like feedback. Feedback, which is data that in the scientific field, we can spend six months before we. It can be six months before you get your first result from an experiment. So I was getting instant results. So I love that part of it, you know?

A (78:09)

Yeah, I think that instant feedback is.

B (78:11)

Is.

A (78:11)

I mean. Yeah, it helps, you know, what's going on. It's even like working with jokes, you know, and getting them out there.

B (78:15)

Absolutely.

A (78:15)

It's pretty fascinating how, like, the parts of your life, like to be a scientist, to have, like, a methodology, to then use it to channel your emotions and look at them. You look at your emotions, look at your life, look at the path of things, you know, to put like, to almost like take a template of science and apply it to something as emotional as music.

B (78:38)

Music, yeah, that kind of joke around calling myself a song scientist. But that's essentially what it is. I mean, because, you know, user bias is. Is like, it can so easily contaminate your results and contaminate your entire experience, Experiment and experience. And so I really was trying to use user bias because I was trying to authenticate something in one of my own emotions and experiences. But also. So take user bias out of it, because at the end of the day, you gotta find the truth. And just because you don't like the results doesn't mean they're not true. And that's where user bias gets in the way, because you want the results to be different. Maybe you really like this song, but you're not getting the results that you thought it was gonna get. So you start adjusting your formula. And then before you know it, you got conclusive results. Either. Either conclusively, this is not the truth, or conclusively this is the truth. And then you run with the truth, whether it's good for you or bad for you. And that's.

A (79:43)

Yeah, I was just looking at this right here. It says user bias refers to cognitive tendencies that distort how individuals perceive, interpret, or respond during research. What are examples of user bias?

B (79:55)

For example, you think that this is going to. To work for whatever reason you have a hunch, like, that this whatever thing is going to work. And you've now attached an emotion to it because you almost need it to work. Now, now, now it's more about you than it is about the truth. Like, so when you go into, like an experiment, it doesn't need to work out for you. Like, your feelings have to be completely separate. Separate from that if you're doing true. But research, if you're going to be a true researcher and using the scientific method the proper way. So you know, that's, I guess when you get into a song, especially a song about your dad or a song about loss, it's easy to be like, well it needs to be like this, it needs to say this or it needs to say that because that's what's going to make me feel good. But that's may not be the truth.

A (80:50)

Yeah, I think your songs don't really take me on like a. They don't take me on a typical journey of like a beginning, middle and end, I guess. And some of them are different than others, of course. But yeah, I guess sometimes you think of a song, especially if it's a country song, I think of having like a beginning, middle and end almost like a journey. Whereas yours sometimes sort of like take me on a, A ride down, a ride past something or through something.

B (81:16)

Yeah.

A (81:16)

And it's not as much of like you're giving me this story as much as you are providing some things and I'm the store. I'm remembering the story of mine that pertain, that associates with it sometimes maybe. And I'm not trying to like what the do I know, but some of that happens with your music. That's what I'm saying.

B (81:38)

Well, that's if, if there's any goal I've ever had as a songwriter is to basically do that because I, I, I remember I heard this song called Don't Take the Girl on a School Bus when I was a kid. It made a mess out of me and yeah.

A (81:52)

Cuz everything it's like. And this is now he's 20 years older and then now it's the end of the time.

B (81:57)

But I was able in the weirdest way because my mama was, you know, my mom and dad divorced when I was really young and she was with some abusive men and, and she lived in Tennessee when I was a kid and, and I was always, I spent most of my childhood very worried about her. Like really very worried about her getting killed or hurt really badly.

A (82:18)

Why did she like abusive men, do you think?

B (82:22)

I think probably a lot. Her childhood was very, very hard.

A (82:27)

Oh, so maybe something happened and then.

B (82:28)

She replaced, I think, I think.

A (82:30)

Oh, she's a beautiful lady. What's her name?

B (82:31)

Kathy. Kathy Lynn.

A (82:33)

Kathy Lynn. There she is.

B (82:35)

Yep. And you know, she was just a baby having a baby and you know, trying to. And my dad was, you know, a great, a great man. But they were also teenagers and they were kind of like forced to Wed because of religion. You know, like she was six months pregnant when they got married with me. There's no way they were gonna have a child out of wedlock.

A (82:56)

Right. That was in.

B (82:58)

Not gonna happen.

A (82:58)

Not cool.

B (82:59)

And then they ended up having two more kids and before they know it, they're 22 years old and they got three kids and it's like crazy. And so that, you know, I have to, to, you know, give her a lot of, you know, a lot of grace because of, you know, her life was very hard and she was very young and I don't understand a lot of the, you know, some of those choices she made. But I remember, you know, spending most of my childhood and in fear. In fear of her, of getting that call that she was, she was gone. Yeah.

A (83:30)

Is she. Your mother's still alive?

B (83:31)

Yes, she is.

A (83:32)

Oh, beautiful.

B (83:33)

Yeah. And she's had a wild year and she's, she's very much with us and.

A (83:39)

She'S had a wild year.

B (83:41)

Yeah, she almost got killed this year on an ATV accident. It's wild that you brought that picture up. But she literally, yeah, she, she had a very much a near death experience. She spent two months in the icu. And yeah, it was, it was. It's been a wild year for all of us, especially her.

A (83:59)

ATV deaths happen to so many people.

B (84:01)

Yeah, I don't.

A (84:02)

People don't realize how, how popular it is.

B (84:03)

I don't want one of them damn things anywhere around.

A (84:05)

I'm not saying we're getting you one this year.

B (84:07)

No, please don't. I'm just saying, yeah, I'll sell it on ebay.

A (84:10)

We are not. Yeah, we can. Yeah, yeah, Skip, go with that one. You know, that one can go on to the next. In United States, ATV related desk typically range from 300, 900 annually. But yeah, it's. I don't know why we're even talking about this. And I'm sorry, but I'm glad to know that she's doing well. What. When you guys were young, what kind of stuff was she struggling with? Stuff tough or.

B (84:31)

Yeah, yeah, she had a lot of.

A (84:33)

Struggles and a young age is so tough. Can you imagine that when your mother. Can you imagine? Like when I was 22, I was just concerned if I had enough, you know, time am I to day to jerk off without somebody bothering me. And here there were people feeding children like.

B (84:50)

I mean, she had no business having children and. But yeah, they had these, you know, they very much had these children and. And she was going through some really tough stuff. And you Know, like my dad got custody of us, which was kind of rare at the time. And. But I remember hearing that song and I was able to put her in that song, Yanni's daddy. And it was like. And it didn't make no sense that, you know, like, why is my mom in this song? She shouldn't be like, it doesn't follow the storyline over your head.

A (85:22)

Put her in there.

B (85:22)

My head. Put her in there. And I was able to copy and paste all of my emotions into that song. And three and a half minutes later I was a wreck. Not because of the song, but because of my mom being in the song. And I was like, okay, that's like, to me, that's what the wizardry of songwriting is like. Craig Martin and Larry Johnson wrote that song. Not knowing that some Southern Indiana boy was gonna be like, you know, be ballin on a school bus with. Around a bunch of FFA kids. Wasn't a good look. And so. So yeah, I mean, that's really what I mean. I would say that was the moment that I really got bitten by or like song bit, so to speak. Because I realized that music was more than just beats and sounds and making words rhyme. It was literally taking a. Like taking someone's life and making it part of a piece of art.

A (86:25)

And wow.

B (86:26)

And that's, that's really what a great song does. And I think the real great songs out there and me as a songwriter, the only thing I've tried to pay forward was that. So when you said that like I was. You're able to put yourself in those songs, that's really all I've ever hoped to achieve. Not so much to put. Just put myself in those songs. I want to put other people in those songs and let them be the star of it. Not me.

A (86:56)

Got it.

B (86:56)

And I feel like that's. If it's. If it's anything, that's what. How people respond to the music, it's about them. It's. It has nothing to do with me up there. I'm just a vessel.

A (87:10)

Yeah. No, I think. And I think there's a lot of guys that are trying to feel. I think especially for a lot of young men, it's been like. There's a lot of feeling and processing that. That we've missed somehow or we haven't found a way to. To do it. I think it's the same thing that I noticed with some of Red Clay Strays music. And it's different. You guys stuff is totally different. But if you go to their show They're. They're great. Their show. It's a lot of men, probably kind of adult men who are. Process. Who are trying to find ways to process stuff. That's what I believe, anyway. And it's. It's just. It's interesting to see that. It's interesting to see, like, where do we go to process stuff and how do we do it. It. And. Yeah, I think your music does a lot of that for people. Yeah. And. And that's why I was saying that, yeah, it would be hard for you to write for somebody, which makes it a little bit tougher to have a career in some ways, because you don't have, like, you're you and you can write some songs and. But, man, that with your stuff is so personal. It feels like, to your brain and perspective and attitude that. That it'd be hard for a regular foot to fit into it, you know?

B (88:22)

Yeah, that was the. That was the challenge, you know, like, there's. There's. You know, this sounds so much like you. That was right. And, you know, but at the same.

A (88:31)

Hurts at the time because you're like, well, I'm just trying to do this. But then in the end, it's like, oh, well, I'm the. I'm the instrument.

B (88:39)

Yeah.

A (88:40)

And that just takes. Yeah. And then that's a. It's a. That's a gift that you are. Because if you'd have got. Found this other avenue that was for songwriting, and I know you've had some success. Success in it, but if you found this other avenue that was hugely successful, then you may not have continued to nurture, or the energy may not have been on the seed that was you. You know, the sunlight might have not focused on you to keep that.

B (89:01)

Honestly, if my dad was still alive, I mean, none of this would have happened. I mean, really, if, you know, I'd probably be just writing songs, trying to get cuts and probably still. Still failing at it. And.

A (89:13)

Yeah, your dad would be selling merch for you. Be nice, though.

B (89:16)

Yeah, he might. He would be. He would still be there with his giant phone pro, recording every bit of it. Proud as hell, man.

A (89:24)

My. My. I was just thinking about my dad. So my dad was very old when I was born, and so I remember, like, I was ashamed of my dad, so I had a lot of shame about him, you know, But I grew up in a lot of fear, too, in our household. Like, my sister was real sick, and so I was always scared that she was going to pass away. And then my dad was old, so he was in his 70s when I got to know him. And so I was always afraid he was going to pass away. So it was like this constant thing of, like, you know, it just felt like somebody was just going to dang d. You know?

B (89:53)

Yeah.

A (89:53)

So it made everything kind of dour. Yeah, I think. Or. I don't know. It made it like the perspective was dim. That's what it was. And my brother would mess with me. He'd come in the room, and he'd be like, dude, dad's dead. I'm like, what? He like, go in there, dude. Go in there right now. And my dad would fall asleep all the time because he was, like, 76 or 77. Heaven. And those people like to sleep a decent amount during the day. And I don't know if he'd be asleep Readers. He'd lay in there with his eyes closed. You know what I'm saying a lot to old people. Like, I'm awake. I'm at work, you know? Yeah. Yeah. I'm married. You know that It's. They're not forgetting the things that are important, you know? But I would go up, and I would have to go, like. And he would be alive, and I would be like, you. You're full of. So then it got to this weird part where my brother would come through, and he'd be like, dude, Dad's day dead. And like, dude, he better be dead when I go in there, or I'm gonna beat your ass. So it became. And it flipped this whole perspective of, like, what was normal in the world. So my friends would be like, dude, what do you mean, he better be dead? Are you gonna fight your brother? You know, but no, he does this all the time, dude. He's not freaking dead.

B (91:02)

You were like. I don't know. You were combating the dark arts with other dark arts.

A (91:07)

Yeah. Or my mom would be like, go spend time with your dad, because he's probably gonna die soon. He like, all right. You know? But she was just doing us to get us out of the room so she could tidy up or something, you know, some trick. But it was just weird, you know? And so were you. And it was true, too. He probably was gonna die soon. So I was like, we'll get in there and spend some time with him or draw a picture of him. We probably have, like, 70 pictures of him. We drove crayons. But if she'd, like, go in there and draw a picture of him, you know, you're gonna want it, you know, and it's horrible pictures, you Know, and sometimes we draw them, like, as a black goddess, like, you know, just, like. Because it would seem more exciting or whatever. But.

B (91:38)

But were you. Were you quiet as a kid?

A (91:42)

No, I don't think that I was. I think I was, like, kind of curious.

B (91:46)

Yeah.

A (91:46)

And I like to make excitement somehow. Like, I like to create ambiance for things. But I think I was probably. I don't know. My mom says she didn't tend to me that much because it seemed like I was doing fine.

B (92:01)

Yeah.

A (92:01)

So she didn't think I needed, like, a lot of attention because she felt like I was doing okay, you know, because we've had, like, some conversations about that stuff. But. Yeah, I think that was a big regret I had, was that I had, like, a lot of shame about my dad's age. And so I didn't even embrace him really that much, you know, because I just. I was ashamed of it.

B (92:21)

Wow.

A (92:22)

But it's just. Life's just harrowing like that.

B (92:24)

You. You and I had, like, polar opposite dads. My dad was like a baby, and I was like. I guess I was kind of. I wouldn't say I was a. I was. Yeah, it was. Yeah. They were just kind of totally different perspectives to think about. Like, my dad was like a child. Like, honestly, like a big brother, really, a lot of ways, because he was only 18 years older than me. Oh.

A (92:46)

Yeah. That's pretty normal.

B (92:47)

I mean, I was like, there's actually. There's actually siblings out there that are like 15. 15 years older than their siblings, you know? Yeah. So. Yeah, I mean, that. That had to be. That had to be tough. I find people that are. That's why I asked, you know, people that are spend a. I know I've. I spent my whole childhood in a state of fear of loss. Fear of losing someone really unlosable at that time.

A (93:14)

Like, what would make that happen? It is such a. Oh, because your mom being my mom.

B (93:17)

Yeah. I was like. Like losing her was not, like, something I was willing to. To bear, but it seemed like it was inevitable and, like, something that was, like, just around the corner too. So, like, it made me, like, retreat as a kid. It made me, like, really quiet and observe it. Like, observe everything.

A (93:36)

You gotta make sure everything's okay.

B (93:37)

Yeah. And keep my mouth shut because, like, I didn't want to say something or, you know, like, you know, that could cost me her. Yeah. It could cost me her or, you know, I. I didn't want to draw any attention. Draw attention to it or speak anything into existence about it. And, and I didn't want anybody to know about it either. So it was like my own little, you know, my own little thing.

A (94:03)

Yeah.

B (94:03)

My dad didn't know about a lot of her, what she was going through with her other husbands. Like, I. That was something that I knew about. Yeah. And that was a tough secret to carry because, you know, it was. You know, he would have never. He wouldn't have wanted me around that. And God knows what he would have done too, those dudes. And he probably would have killed them or something. And so I was, I was always worried. I was always trying to protect my dad from himself and I was trying to protect my mom from herself. It made me grow up real quick. And I bet your dad's situation probably made you grow up quicker.

A (94:43)

Makes you aware. That's the thing. The worst thing to be is as a young kid. And in some ways it's just so aware because you're living on this different timeline. You're living on this other thing.

B (94:52)

It's good to be oblivious in those years. Like.

A (94:54)

Yeah.

B (94:55)

And. And really ignorant to like, the pain and the, you know, the magnitude of that is the weight of loss as a kid, like, we, we insulate and protect. We protect children from that.

A (95:05)

Yes.

B (95:06)

We don't even bring them to funerals because we don't want them to see that. That's something. My dad, I gotta say, I could give him a lot of credit because I been. I've seen people die from a young age, from grandparents, the family members. He would bring me to funerals probably because he couldn't find a babysitter. Like, what's he going to do? Like get a babysitter.

A (95:24)

So.

B (95:24)

Or have us wait in the car. He's like, no, you're going to come and look at this body. You're going to see this dead person. Because one day it could be me.

A (95:33)

My dad used to would drop us off at funerals in our town if there was in order to take. Get time away from. He dropped me off at two funerals in our town that I didn't know any. Know anybody at. And he would take us to leave us at Burger King for eight hours, like they were a babysitter. They had no. I'm like. And every time we're like, dad, they do not want us there anymore. Like, we ate like 11 french toast sticks that people gave us and they don't even have a play place. He like, he enjoyed the play place. And he'd be like, it's the wrong one. Burger King doesn't have it.

B (96:01)

We don't have it everywhere.

A (96:02)

No. So this lady named Ms. Wanda, she was always, like, the lady that would take care of us in there. And we would just drink those syrups when people left them in there. But we'd be at the Burger King for, like, eight hours talking to people. People. Me and my sisters. And it would just be bizarre. But you'd end up in bizarre. Like that, you know, my dad would take. He'd be like. Drive me over to the post office because I was kind of tall when I was 10 or 11, maybe 12. So I'd drive him over there, but I didn't have a driver's license or anything. And there'd be no parking spots. He'd be like, we'll just do a couple laps around the block while I'm in here. And I'd be like. And there was this huge Cutlass, this Delta 88. And so I was like, I can't drive this and didn't have power steering, dude. I would hit. And the car was so banged up, I would. I. I hit probably seven cars going around that block.

B (96:42)

Totaling cars with that.

A (96:43)

Oh, dude. Just hitting all kinds of. Because.

B (96:45)

Yeah, because those things are solid.

A (96:46)

There was no, like, mirrors or there.

B (96:48)

Was no house around.

A (96:50)

There was no mirrors for sure after I hit the street. But there was no cameras. Nobody knew what had happened, you know, And I would just be in there, and if dad had to wait to buy stamps, I'd be out there. I'd hit 50 cars, dude. But, dude, it was just. You would be in crazy scenarios. Goes odd environments, put you in crazy scenarios that other people couldn't fathom. And then it would just kind of get your brain to, like, a different place. Yeah. So your brain was kind of operating in some wild territory. One of the things you said. Yeah. Yeah. I wonder how many kids are quiet because they're a. They. They're worried if they just tall. If they affect the world in some way that it could alter that they could, you know, because when you're a child, things are very balanced in your head. Like, I remember I would swallow on both sides of my mouth. I would be careful how I stepped. If I counted one, I had to count one. On the other side of my brain. I always had, like, these two sides inside of me. And I'm like, one over here, one over here. Like, these little things I had to do. Right?

B (97:47)

And I did the same thing.

A (97:49)

Yeah.

B (97:49)

Ticks.

A (97:50)

Little ticks. And it was because I had to keep things even. Everything had to be even. And so I wonder how many times kids operate in this space where it's like I just can't affect anything too much because things as far as I recognize them are already like kind of on a, on a uncertain fulcrum, on a one footed fulcrum. And it's going to get weird, you know.

B (98:11)

No, I think you, you just hit, you hit the nail on the head right there.

A (98:16)

It's interesting.

B (98:17)

Yeah, I think that was, I think you articulated it far better than I did or could have. Yeah. You're afraid to affect the world because. Yes, you might change it for the worse. So, like I'm gonna stay Switzerland and keep my mouth shut.

A (98:34)

Yeah.

B (98:34)

And I did that for most of my childhood. And then.

A (98:39)

But then a lot of the world happens inside of you, then if it's not happening inside of you, a lot of the conversations and stuff, they happen inside of you, which is interesting. And it's. I think it can be painful and scary, but also kind of fascinating.

B (98:53)

It allows you to be by yourself a lot and it, it teaches you and trains you to be alone and thrive in loneliness. And if there's anything like with boxing, songwriting, I'm assuming comedy, there's a lot of loneliness to it. You got to be inside your own head a lot in order to do it properly. Like, it's not like, you know, you just go up and play a baseball game and hit a homer and then, you know, it's, it's this, it's this thing you got to stay in all the time.

A (99:25)

Yeah.

B (99:26)

It's not event based. It's. It's just kind of this state of mentality.

A (99:32)

That's a good point. Especially with boxing, because boxing, most of it is the training. Yeah, the fights are very rare.

B (99:37)

Yeah, the fights are rare and short compared to the training.

A (99:41)

So your father was a boxer. How did he get into to it? Do you know how?

B (99:47)

Yeah, well, he started probably a year before I was born. He saw Muhammad Ali fight. Muhammad Ali was like his hero. He's from Louisville, Kentucky, so very almost like, Almost like a local dude too. Yeah, my dad just idolized him. He just watched all his fights, loved everything about him in and out of the ring. And I think, yeah, he was just really inspired by Ali's story and he literally just wanted to start boxing. And I, I think the movie Rocky probably just came out around that time too. I bet that probably had something to do with it.

A (100:30)

A lot of whites got caught up in that.

B (100:32)

Yep. And. But I think with the combination of Muhammad Ali and Rocky Balboa Yeah. My dad. Dad said, hey, I want to put on some gloves. And before he knew it, he was. He was fighting. And he started on his own, just like, literally fighting anybody, like, signing up for tough man competitions. And then he ended up finding this great gym up in Indianapolis and fighting under this coach named Champ Chaney is what that was his name.

A (101:02)

Champ Chaney. Bring him up. Let's get a gander at him. Like, to see this, man, the in day.

B (101:06)

I can still smell the cigar smoke. That's him, dude. There you go.

A (101:10)

Champ.

B (101:10)

Oh, dude, I haven't seen him in forever. Let him have that second picture right there. That's exactly how I remember. He'd have that same sweater on every time I'd see him.

A (101:20)

Oh, yeah, yeah.

B (101:21)

Police Athletic League. That was the. The pal clubs. We'd fight at. Like, we would open up for our dad's fights. Like, when he got into, like, Champs tutelage, that's when he started, like, really doing well.

A (101:33)

Okay.

B (101:33)

Because he didn't have any really good training. And very much like how Apollo trained Rocky, Champ trained. My dad got it. He. He, like, reformatted his whole style. He taught him footwork. He taught him head movement. He taught him all the things that he lacked, fundamentally, because my dad was just a tough guy with a mean punch and. And a heart of a lion, and he could just train, train, train. Love to train. He loved to train. He loved to work, and Champ loved that about him, his work ethic. He'd show up to Indianapolis, he'd spar anybody. I remember him getting up in the morning and literally having to peel his eyes open to see us because of. Just sparring. Not from a fight, just barring those dudes in Champs gym.

A (102:17)

Dude, my. Go ahead.

B (102:18)

And I was just gonna say, I mean, he had a lot of guys that didn't care for him. And I remember, you know, him talking about that, like, he really had to fight for his spot at that gym.

A (102:28)

Your dad did.

B (102:28)

He did.

A (102:29)

And what reasons would they have not to care for about him or care for care for him?

B (102:33)

I think, you know, he just. I think Champ maybe favored him because he really put in a lot of work, and he. I think Champ saw what he was going through. He was bringing his kids to the gym, and, you know, and he was very much out of sorts there culturally, and he was. He was fighting an uphill battle, and he was. And the wind was in his face, and he just still kept going forward. And I feel like that's what Champs saw in him. Him and so when we started boxing as a kid, I mean my first memories are the sounds of these fights. Like I. That right there, like I can smell that picture. Like I can smell the room. I can. It's cigar smoke and isopropyl alcohol with menthol in it. And it's, it's all this and a lot of sweat and leather and the sound of like cops under the table, gambling, screaming, red and blue. Cuz that's where you, you'd be like red and blue. They, they'd have like red headgear. Like this was an exhibition fight. Me and my brother were fighting each other in this one. So we, we didn't have an opponent. So they just have us fight each other. So that was one of the fights we, that was one of the fights we opened up for my dad.

A (103:43)

They gave both y' all a trophy too, which is.

B (103:45)

Sounds like a participation because it's an exhibition fight.

A (103:48)

But if you both, both get one. Yeah, I could see that. Just tell them both are the winner.

B (103:52)

There's exhibition fights and then there's competition. These are exhibitions. So in an exhibition fight you both get a trophy.

A (103:57)

Got it.

B (103:58)

You're just exhibiting the sport of boxing. Not really. It's not going, nothing's going on your amateur record or anything like that. But then we ended up fighting other kids and when we, they could find a boy our size to fight, we'd fight him. And so we would open up. Like the first two or three fights on the card would be kid fights.

A (104:16)

Oh, that's fun.

B (104:17)

So I've, I joke around. I've been an opener for a long time and so yeah, I really have.

A (104:22)

There's nothing fun of them watching a kid smoke cigarettes or fight another kid, a little kid.

B (104:27)

I did both of those things.

A (104:28)

Hell yeah. Yeah, there's something about that. I think they should have a zoo where you get to watch people do unique.

B (104:34)

Yeah.

A (104:34)

If they had a section where a couple kids are sitting there smoking, like don't have them smoke all day because I know it's bad for him. But they get two cigarettes a day each. And it's like at a certain time they smoke and you all get to.

B (104:45)

Watch it, like 15 minutes a day, you know, come and watch it.

A (104:48)

And you can stream it too. If you didn't want to go in person, you could stream it. But you're telling me some kid smoking it on my lunch break at 12:15pm today, you know, Gary or Robert or whatever is going to smoke and you.

B (104:59)

Find a little Gary, let me know yeah, Bubble wrap him, protect him. We own. That's a. That's that precious. That's a g breed right there.

A (105:06)

Oh, that's. Yeah. Gary, Indiana. It. Gary, Indiana is a wild place, I've heard. Oh, yeah. But, yeah, I would watch a kid. I would love to watch a kid smoke, you know?

B (105:16)

Yeah.

A (105:17)

So. And that's maybe that sounds very Russian. I mean, I don't know. I've been online a lot.

B (105:23)

No, I think smoking's a very American thing too.

A (105:26)

But yeah, I just love, like. I don't know, I love nostalgia too. That's something that I love. Dude. I remember the first. Yeah. Going to funeral. Like, I just. I love the first of everything because after the first time of everything, everything lost a lot of luster for me in life, I think, a lot of times. And I don't know why that is. And I don't mean it like super negatively. Like, I'm not down in the dumps or anything.

B (105:49)

Yeah.

A (105:49)

But I just. It's the first. It's like there's something fascinating about the first time of everything.

B (105:56)

Yeah. Yeah. Nostalgia is a. It's a really effective tool as far as, you know, making people go back to memories. Like, whether it's.

A (106:08)

When you get in your own memory, you're attached.

B (106:10)

Yeah.

A (106:10)

You know, it's like. Yeah, there's just something that attaches you there.

B (106:16)

Yeah. And you can use senses to like a. Like as a. An appendage to nostalgia, like a sense of smell, a sense of sight or sound and touch, all that. And I think if you kind of use those senses and appendage them to a certain type of nostalgia, you can unlock a memory within any human. Yeah. Like all humans. It doesn't have to be your memory. You can. You suddenly have a key to so many memories and so many minds and. And yeah, you open up these memories that people have had vaulted for years, and when they come out, it's like. It's almost like seeing that toy that, that you got for Christmas when you were 7 years old that you were so excited about. But seeing it again for the first time when you're in your 30s or 40 and you kind of relive that excitement for at least a second. Like, oh, man, I remember that feeling. I haven't seen that in 30 years. And when you can unleash that memory, it's such a beautiful thing. You see it on people's eyes. You see them traveling through time and. Yeah, it's.

A (107:27)

Yeah, it's like the first time you hear a song kind of that really touches you, you know, like it's a human thing. Why? I got a new complaint.

B (107:35)

Yeah.

A (107:36)

Whoever who sang that song.

B (107:38)

Yeah, Nirvana. It's heart shaped box.

A (107:40)

God, that song was good.

B (107:42)

Oh, it's incredible. Yeah.

A (107:43)

Staying home from school to listen to that song, dude.

B (107:47)

And watch the video. Video. Like, I remember watching the video and just like, oh, I, I, I remember like Kurt rocking back and forth in that chair. Just everything about it. Like that whole record in utero was just like life changing for me. That was huge. Apprentice. Oh, my God. Yeah. This is the video.

A (108:05)

Oh, I do remember some of this now. Dude. I've been locked inside your heart shape. Oh, dude. When Sound garden came, bro. Bro.

B (108:17)

Soundgarden changed my life.

A (108:19)

Stone Temple Pilot.

B (108:20)

I actually learned how to play guitar from Soundgarden people. If they're like, if I could like, give anybody like, who taught you how to play guitar? It literally, like, if I could credit anybody, it would be the band Soundgarden.

A (108:32)

And I feel is that Soundgarden. When the Dog Temple Pilots, they were also good. What was Soundgard? Soundgarden. What's a Soundgarden song?

B (108:40)

There's so many, like, as far as hits, you got like, Black hole Sun fell on black days I blow up the outside world One of my favorites. The outside Rusty Cage. Pretty news. The day I tried to live. 4th of July is heavy as hell. I love 4th of July. Limo wreck. Oh, that slaps super heavy. Well, that's Fourth of July, dude.

A (109:09)

Dude.

B (109:10)

One of the greatest rock and roll vocal performances ever is Blow up the Outside World. World. Like, listen to that Chris Cornell vocal and just talk to me after. It is like a. A clinic.

A (109:22)

Is it pretty good? Put these on. Let's play it real quick. We gotta get. You're gonna play a couple songs for us today. What do you think, Stephen?

B (109:28)

Yeah, let's do it. Come on. I ain't scared.

A (109:30)

I wanna. Let's listen to this together if we can.

B (109:35)

There's so much like John Lennon influence in this song. You can really. Oh.

A (110:08)

Remember how videos were so much too then? Oh, riding a dude riding somewhere just listening to a song by yourself. There was nothing like it. Used to. My buddy would smoke cigarettes in his car and he just threw him in the back seat. When he was done smoking them whole back seated, it burnt up like 70 times. The back of his car. He would just. He'd have a little water bottle from his mom's hair salon and he zap it out.

B (110:50)

Zap it. Everything.

A (111:04)

Bro. His voice was like, nobody's.

B (111:06)

Oh, it's insane. I mean. I mean, it didn't even seem human that he was doing this.

A (111:12)

No.

B (111:16)

Very few people had, like, that range of being able to go that high, but also, like, go low and make it meaningful and then go back down to this world.

A (111:27)

Yeah.

B (111:28)

Oh. And take you there. A lot of. A lot of those high singers would lose you when they go down like that. Yeah.

A (111:35)

It's all it. I mean, just so enveloped, like, you just like you wanted to be in their world. Smashing Pumpkins together. There was a lot of good. And I always. One thing I've never liked. I don't like music where you can't hear the words.

B (111:49)

Right. Yeah.

A (111:50)

Sometimes the way they do mix or something, it loses me if I can't hear the words. That's the part that I need the most. Right. Because I need to feel something. Like, the beat and stuff helps. It's cool for me, but for me, I've always been like, what are the words telling us? You know what?

B (112:05)

I know the story.

A (112:06)

Yes. I want to feel something from it.

B (112:07)

Yeah.

A (112:08)

You know.

B (112:11)

Now I'm with you.

A (112:12)

That.

B (112:12)

I mean, that's. I'm a word nerd, so. Yeah, I'm assuming you are, too.

A (112:17)

Oh, I love to write. That was, like, my favorite thing. I think, like, one of my goals maybe the next couple years would be to, like, finally get a book done. Like, I've written a lot of stuff, and I've written probably half of maybe two books, but I would like to finally get it done. But once video became so popular, it was just like. And once podcasting became busier, it was hard to focus on that. Is there anything good in the news right now that we want to check out? Dude, I did. Will you look up an article? Trevin? I saw something about Facebook. It did research, and then they canceled it after it started to find. Find beliefs that they didn't want. We were talking about. That. We're talking about a few minutes ago. About research.

B (112:54)

Yeah. What kind of user bias?

A (112:57)

Oh, about user bias on boxing. You.

B (113:00)

Have you done any boxing? Because you.

A (113:01)

No. You've never done.

B (113:02)

You've.

A (113:03)

I've go to a lot of mma. I go to a lot of MMA stuff. I love it. As soon I. You know what? I wouldn't mind getting into something more. The past year has been tough for me. I didn't invest in a lot. Like, the past couple years with touring. I kind of should have invested more of, like, having a trainer with me on the road or things like that that I kind of took some of that for granted, and I think in the future that I'll do it differently, but this year, I'd like to get more into focusing more on my health and stuff like that. I've really burned myself out pretty good, but I used to take MMA classes, and I have a feeling that I'll get back into it. I've also had traveled. I was moving a lot, too, but now I'm going to be here more, and so I need to put some roots more in some places like that, so it's like, I'll be able to have more of a system, like a pattern. And so it's been tough for me to have that.

B (113:50)

It's so hard to find that. I mean, I. I box a lot here in town. Well, a lot. I. When I'm in town, I try to as much as I can, but it's. It's helped me so much. Just try to. Even if it's two days a week. I. I only brought it up. I went to the UFC Performance Institute in Las Vegas. Oh, that's what I heard last week and. Cause we played in Vegas last week, and they invited me in. It was so.

A (114:13)

We had to fight.

B (114:13)

Fights? No, no, it was after the fights. But I saw Sean Strickland there. It was.

A (114:18)

Oh, you did? Yeah, like, oh, dude, he's a really amazing guy. He's an interesting guy.

B (114:22)

Incredible.

A (114:23)

He's a deep soul.

B (114:24)

He is a deep soul and. And just such a nice guy. Everybody there was so nice.

A (114:29)

They're so great. Did you get to work out there or train there at all?

B (114:32)

Yeah, no. Yeah, I did. I trained with Brandon Jenkins there, and.

A (114:36)

You did? Yeah, dude, bring up Brandon Jenkins. I went to. I. I tried to.

B (114:41)

Yeah. Forest Griffin basically gave me the tour, and, like, he met me there, and I was like, holy hell, there he is.

A (114:49)

Nice, dude.

B (114:50)

Yep. Yeah, he. He put some work on me, and that's awesome. I was really out of shape, but it was cool. I got to learn some new things. Like, he. You know, because I. I only trained with boxing guys, and he's an MMA guy, so, like, it was just. There was a lot of different angles, a lot of new things I had to learn and take. Take it, you know, kind of slow and kind of start from scratch. It was. It was. It was humbling, and. And I was like, four weeks on the road and very, like, four weeks having not trained is too much time off to, like, go back. I felt like a total piece of crap.

A (115:23)

Yeah.

B (115:24)

Like, I looked real bad, and I felt like I looked real bad.

A (115:27)

That's the tough thing as you get older too. It's like you got to catch me. Give me a couple days to prepare for anything. I can do it. But do not catch me if I've had four or five Diet cokes and you want me to box or whatever, bitch, I'm stay the car. You know what I'm saying?

B (115:40)

Like, way too much aspiration.

A (115:42)

Yeah, that's what it is, dude. It's like I look like a damn teddy bear or something, you know, because also my body style, my God given body style is I'm built kind of like a gingerbread cookie a little bit, you know, Like I'm sturdy. Bring up a good G bread on me, daddy. It's seasonal anyway, I bet you can throw. You know what? I can survive, dude. I'll do okay. Put me. Give me a couple weeks of. Of that's how I'm built right there now. Sturdy. I got a sturdy base on me.

B (116:09)

Yeah, like that. Well, I think those bow legged like that.

A (116:13)

No, they're. This one, this one had a bad. This one might have been in a bad oven, but yeah, I think I got a little bit more frosting on me than that one. But yes. Anyway, maybe the one. They don't really make a perfect cookie, dude. But we should do you know what would be interesting? What if we made. Made cookies of like people that have been on this show and we sold. It was like a fun. Like we could do part of it as like a fundraiser or something for moms or something. Good.

B (116:41)

We eat each other's cookies and you.

A (116:42)

Just get a batch of them or something. Yeah, you can get a batch of the Stephen Wilsons.

B (116:46)

Bite my head off.

A (116:49)

If you're angry at your husband, get you a batch of them. Stephen Wilson and chew his head off. So that's pretty crazy. So Brandon Jing has met you out there. There. And Forest Griffin met you out there.

B (117:01)

Yeah. And they gave me a tour of the whole facility and we cleaned. Oh man, it was like I was a kid at a candy shop.

A (117:07)

Did they take you through like not just the gym part, but also the UFC building and stuff?

B (117:11)

Yeah, yeah, I got to go into like the lunchroom. And everything.

A (117:14)

Yeah, dude, it's nice.

B (117:15)

Yeah, I was like, this is so nice. And yeah, like you don't. This is like the most dangerous lunchroom you'll ever walk into. Like, seriously, like, like everybody was so nice and so friendly, but it was like you'll never walk into a cafeteria that could hurt you so bad.

A (117:31)

Yeah. Oh, even the line cooks will have like cauliflower. He's like, you want cauliflower?

B (117:34)

You're like, I'm good.

A (117:38)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, dude. Even like, yeah, I think like the head chef in there last week was like, Brandon Roy Valor. So I'm like, they got some gangsters in here. I'm being careful what I asked for in here. Yeah, that's hilarious, dude. Meta buried casual evidence of social Media haunts harm U.S. court filings allege oh yeah, this was it. This was about information about somebody this Meta shut down internal research into the mental health effects of Facebook after finding causal evidence that its products harmed users mental health, according to unredacted filings in a lawsuit by US School districts against Meta and other social media platforms. So, so would that be information bias?

B (118:14)

Turn on research in the middle of.

A (118:17)

In a 2020 research project codenamed Project Mercury, scientists worked with survey film survey firm Nielsen to gauge the effects of deactivating Facebook, according to Meta documents obtained via discovery. To the company's disappointment, people who stopped using Facebook for a week reported lower feelings of depression, anxiety, loneliness and social comparison. Rather than publishing those findings or pursuing additional research, the filing states, Meta called off further work and internally declared that the negative study findings were tainted by the existing media narrative around the company. Privately, however, a staffer insisted the conclusions of the research were valid, according to the filing. Is that user bias?

B (119:00)

I'd say it definitely could be user bias, but I would actually have to see the research. There's so many other variables. You want to know how many participants were involved? What's your statistical N meaning how many participants were there? Their or you know, your bell curve is going to be a lot more, I guess, a lot more valid. You're going to have more statistical significance. The higher number of participants are involved in the research. For all we know, there's 20 people that they did research on on Facebook.

A (119:34)

Right?

B (119:34)

But if they said like, no, we did research on 200,000 people. Okay, now you got statistical validity. But I need to see this research paper. And because one person's saying that there's user bias and then there's another person saying, no, the results are actually scient valid. So that person may actually have bias because they're like emotionally attached to all the research they did. Who knows?

A (119:56)

I see what you're saying.

B (119:56)

This could be like a user bias on top of user bias. A user bias sandwich. Yeah. Oh, bias sandwich. User bias.

A (120:04)

It's the new bond Me, dude. Bring it back up. I want to see a little bit more information on. Let Me see if it tells us because it is interesting to think though that I noticed after only a week people were getting better. This is allegedly the full record will show that for over a decade we have listened to parents research issues that matter most and made real changes to protect teens. Go further, see. Okay. The allegation of Meta Burying evidence on social media harms is just one of the many in late Friday filing by Motley Rice, a law firm suing Meta, Google, TikTok and Snapchat on behalf of school districts around the country. Wonder if we get in touch with them. That sounds like kind of an interesting lawsuit, doesn't it? Just to see, like, what are they learning and what information have they learned? Broadly, the plaintiffs argue the companies have intentionally hidden the internally recognized risks of their products from users, parents and teachers.

B (120:54)

I want to see the research and I want to see if they conducted it or if it was conducted by a second party or third party. That's going to be a huge part of it. And I mean, Australia just recently did a social media ban. I saw that kids under ages 16, I mean, believe.

A (121:12)

Why is the Australian government banning social media for under 16s? The government says it will reduce the negative impact of social media's design features that encourage young people to spend more time on screens. 10 platforms are currently included in the ban. Facebook, Instagram, Snapchat threads, TikTok X, YouTube, Reddit, and streaming platforms like Kick and Twitch. A study it commissioned earlier in 2025 found that 96% of children aged 10 to 15 use social media and that 7 out of 10 of them have been exposed to harmful content. This includes misogynistic and violent material, as well as content promoting eating disorders and suicide. One in seven also reported experiencing grooming type behavior from adults or other children, and more than half said they've been the victim of cyber bullying. I think I'm not even a child and all that's happened to me on there. Yeah, I'm a damn adult. Some of that hurt.

B (122:04)

Hurts, yeah.

A (122:06)

What do we say? How will it work? Or when they're imposing it. I just want to get that information out in this dude. Go back up. It takes Meta about an hour and 52 minutes to make a. To make $50 million in revenue. That's Australian revenue. That's crazy.

B (122:23)

Wow.

A (122:24)

Australia's social media ban for children under 16 officially started on December 10th. So they're in it.

B (122:30)

In it.

A (122:31)

If you're an Australian kid, I don't think this is legal to have kids. Call, but call and tell me Honestly, what do you think? Do you think it's good? Are you pissed about it? What are the feelings right now? Yeah, hit me with a couple. Hit the hotline 985664 9503. And just let. Drop. Drop. And don't be some fake weirdo pretending with an Australian accent.

B (122:50)

Yeah.

A (122:51)

Who's obviously a pervert or whatever. We want. We want real kids to call in. Okay.

B (122:56)

No, I mean, Australia, when it comes to science and research, they. They are very thorough. I went to school there for a year.

A (123:03)

You did?

B (123:03)

I did my junior year. And, like, they have, like. I went there for their science programs. Their research programs are some of the best in the world. So if they've actually done proper research to back this up, I. I believe that it's probably valid science.

A (123:17)

And was that in Sydney?

B (123:18)

It was in Brisbane.

A (123:19)

Oh, yeah.

B (123:20)

Brizzy and. Yeah, dude.

A (123:23)

The Brisbane Lions, dude.

B (123:24)

Yeah, yeah.

A (123:27)

Yeah.

B (123:28)

I love the Lions, dude.

A (123:29)

The Brisbane Lions. Bring them up.

B (123:30)

And the Wallabies.

A (123:31)

Oh, yeah, The Brizzy Lions, dude.

B (123:33)

Legends, dude.

A (123:35)

Bring up Mitch. There he is. Boys class.

B (123:40)

Yeah, dude.

A (123:42)

Yeah. I love the Brisbane Lions, dude. I went over there one night with Mitch. Had a good time. I love Australia, brother.

B (123:47)

It's great. I miss it. I'm gonna go back some, hopefully next year.

A (123:52)

Did you find. Are you married?

B (123:54)

Yes.

A (123:55)

Okay.

B (123:55)

Yeah.

A (123:56)

Is there a Stephen Wilson iii?

B (123:58)

No, there isn't. No.

A (123:59)

There is.

B (124:00)

No. I don't have any biological children. I have a stepson named Henry.

A (124:04)

Okay.

B (124:05)

I've been helping raise since he was about 4 years old, and.

A (124:10)

Oh, nice.

B (124:11)

He's my boy. And. Yeah.

A (124:14)

Pretty cool kid.

B (124:15)

Incredibly cool kid. He's such a great kid. I'm very, very blessed.

A (124:20)

What do you admire about him?

B (124:22)

He's. Well, he's so different from me in. In the best ways. He's. He's very, very intelligent and very collected and calm and very. I. I would say he's more ordered than I am in a lot of ways. He's got, I think, this incredible constitution about him, and he's got a very calm constitution, which is not what I grew up around. I grew up around a lot of noise and a lot of chaos and a lot of energy, and he's like a rock and a raging river that will not move, you know? And I just. I love that about him. And he's. He's a very strong and smart young man. Very much into Muay Thai kickboxing, and we started in boxing. And. Yeah, he's. He's my dude and my dad was a stepfather. Not just a father. He had. He remarried after my mother, and a couple times he didn't have the best luck with the ladies, but a couple of his wives had stepchildren.

A (125:33)

And a.

B (125:34)

And he really taught me how to be a good stepfather, I gotta say. Well, not by teaching me, but just by example. Like, his faith was led by his works, not his words.

A (125:44)

What's one of the toughest things about being a stepfather? Kind of that people don't really see or that they may see and you may have your own. That you may have some specific thoughts about.

B (125:54)

Well, I mean, I was not just a step. I'm not just a stepfather. I was a stepchildren. So I remember the perspective as a stepchild. So I go into my step parenthood as a stepchild.

A (126:06)

Oh, okay.

B (126:07)

So I have something that a lot of step parents don't have. I have, like, a really unique perspective of what it was like to grow.

A (126:14)

Up with step R D. You've done the R D?

B (126:17)

Yeah, I've done the R D. I've had the experience. I've had multiple step parents. I didn't just have. I didn't just have one set. I have a trial sample and like. Yeah. Had a lot of variability variables.

A (126:27)

Yeah. Okay, there we go.

B (126:28)

So I got some good data there. And. And one thing I just remember, and this was never a conversation. My dad just loved his stepchildren like us. There was never, like, I feel like a lot of step parents, if they have biological children and stepchildren, they will be like, well, I love you. Just like I love you him. And they'll say that. He never said that. That I can remember. He just did that. That was what his. That's the lesson that I learned, is that it has nothing to do with words, has everything to do with your actions. And so I've really just tried to be the best stepfather. I can not talk about being a stepfather or talk about anything.

A (127:16)

Just.

B (127:17)

Just be. And yeah, I think it's.

A (127:20)

I think it's tough. It's like. It's sometimes easier for me to love a stranger than it is, like, somebody close to me. I feel like, in a weird way.

B (127:27)

Yeah, Yeah. I mean, there's, you know, familiarity breeds contempt. That's an old saying. And, you know, the more familiar you become with somebody, the more contemptuous you can become.

A (127:40)

Oh, yes.

B (127:42)

Yeah. So like, a stranger is. Is without contempt because there's no familiarity there. And, you know, that's, I guess, the kind of the. The battle of love because the more you love somebody, the more familiar you become with them. And, and like I guess that is. I know, like how do you balance contempt and love? Because contempt is gonna kind of creep its way in or some.

A (128:06)

Somehow resentment, something will get in there.

B (128:09)

Something negative will come in there there. The more and more you love somebody and, and you know, maybe that's just, you know, the darkness balancing out the light. But you know, I, I think just acknowledging it and knowing that it's there is, is really the big part of it because like the fear or the, the panic behind it is the lack of understanding behind it.

A (128:30)

Really.

B (128:30)

Fear is most of the time just a lack of understanding and, and fear.

A (128:35)

Sometimes they're standing there and you don't. It's like if you really looked at it for a bit. Bit. But sometimes I'll just feel a fear and react. I'll do that for decades without really looking at what's going on here.

B (128:47)

Yeah.

A (128:47)

What's really got me here? What am I, you know, and sometimes just you could figure it out and you. And you're free of it, you know, you can at least have a see when it's standing there, you know, But I'll let a damn thing Michael Myers me out there forever and I won't even go out there and realize, oh, this is just a damn cardboard cutout of some old bullshit. Yeah, it's ain't even. Nothing's even in this costume anymore. And I've still been acting this way because part of me, I get something out of pretending that that's still real too. Yeah, I get an excuse, you know, I get to keep living my life a certain way when I pretend that that old boogeyman is still new, you know. Not saying that that happens a lot, but I'm just saying that that that has not been a part of my story at times probably. And sometimes I didn't realize closet.

B (129:34)

It's wild what the mind can do. Like my dad took me deer hunting and I think that was the best thing he could have done for me. Not. It's just the boxing, you know, you, you can't. You deal with a lot of fear in boxing because you don't understand certain things. But I remember like, you know, when you go deer hunting, you go out. Especially if you, if you morning hunt, you, you go out about an hour before sunrise, guys, into a pitch black woods and you'll walk a quarter mile into a pitch black woods. And my dad would post me up against a tree with a shotgun in my hand. Not even a tree stand or anything. Post me up against a tree, and then he would go off about 500 yards other way, because he'd have to be far away, because I could shoot him or he could shoot me. Like, you gotta be. You can't be in range of each other's shot because we're shooting slow bugs. And. But I just remember, like, okay, getting out there an hour before sunrise. It would be pitch black, and he would walk me out to this tree, and you couldn't see nothing. And, like, I remember thinking, like, he would walk out here by himself all the time, and I was like, man, that's crazy. And. And he would sit me up against a tree in the pitch black, and it would just be pitch black. And then he would go off into his tree, and I would be there for at least 45 minutes in the darkest woods you can imagine. Yeah. Hearing everything crick and crackle and, you know, move around, shuffle through leaves. Is that a. A wild boar? Is that.

A (131:05)

Is that.

B (131:06)

You know, is it a. Is that a hooker? Is that a cougar?

A (131:10)

You'd hope it was a hooker, but it never was, dude. It was like a boar.

B (131:13)

Yeah. Or just a squirrel.

A (131:15)

Yeah. Or a raccoon. Like, it had gotten shoes somewhere. Like a.

B (131:19)

A rabid raccoon. Yeah. But no, I just remember then. Then the. The sun would slowly start to come up, and the light. You would start to understand the woods that you didn't have understanding of, like, 45 minutes ago. And you'd start to see it, and then it was like, okay. It become literally, as the more and more light crept into the woods, the more understanding you. You got of the woods and what it looked like, what it was made of, what kind of trees, what kind of animals. Animals that were making all these sounds and by. You know, by the time the sun was up, there was nothing in that woods that was scaring you anymore. So it was really, you know, your fear was what you didn't understand and what you couldn't see. The woods did not change in the presence of light, the lack thereof. It was the exact same woods that it was 45 minutes ago. Because the squirrels don't care about dark and light. You know, they just. They live, you know.

A (132:13)

Oh, yeah. They're always up to some or whatever.

B (132:18)

I ain't afraid of the dark.

A (132:19)

Yeah, they ain't afraid of other men either. Apparently. Some of these young bucks. I've seen a lot of squirrels, gerbils.

B (132:26)

Gosh.

A (132:26)

Oh, you catch me a little craziest.

B (132:29)

Richard Gearbox, baby.

A (132:30)

Oh, those are the Old days, dude, remember how those crazy rumors.

B (132:34)

Yeah, I know. We were just talking about that Richard.

A (132:36)

Gears gaze to put some squirrels up his butt or whatever. And people like, what? But somehow that made it around society.

B (132:43)

Now I know. Yeah, I don't know. Yeah, that was. That made it to my tiny little small town in southern Indiana.

A (132:50)

We were just like, what are we talking about?

B (132:52)

I guess maybe that is the downside of social media, is that those old bullshit rumors don't come up anymore because someone would eventually, they would shoot him down immediately. It would. It'd be all over TikTok in a day. And then someone would be like, yeah, someone, Bill, this is a bunch of.

A (133:07)

Yeah.

B (133:08)

And then be like.

A (133:09)

Used to be with a lot of people.

B (133:10)

Yeah, my dad's a skydiver.

A (133:12)

Yeah, like, like, oh, he'll be home any minute. Lie to people all the time. You'd be like, I'm a lawyer. They're like, you're in seventh grade. What are you talking about? You're like, yeah, whatever. The defense rests was good, huh?

B (133:26)

You could become a doctor at like age 12.

A (133:29)

Yeah.

B (133:29)

Like, man, the world is wild. They just did whatever they want to in the 90s, Richard. Gear, gerbils, children, doctors, Doogie Howser.

A (133:40)

To be young, huh?

B (133:41)

Yeah. Say by the bell.

A (133:42)

Oh, I saw. I was at the UFC fights the other day and I saw Mario Lopez.

B (133:48)

Oh, wow.

A (133:49)

Crazy. Every time he seems.

B (133:50)

Looks.

A (133:50)

He looks younger than when he was on, when he was original.

B (133:52)

He's got like his mullet back look.

A (133:56)

What grade are you? Like in seventh grade, eighth grade now.

B (133:58)

Still wearing like those leotards and stuff.

A (134:00)

The unitard?

B (134:01)

Yeah, the unitard.

A (134:02)

Yeah, bro, he looks even better than that now. I don't even know what happened.

B (134:04)

It was incredible.

A (134:05)

Yeah, he was like, yeah, he's every ethnicity too.

B (134:08)

Looks like he's still captain of the wrestling team.

A (134:11)

Oh, dude. Dude. Oh, God.

B (134:13)

Yeah.

A (134:13)

Oh, geez. Sorry. But yeah, guy looks healthy. What I'm saying is this. Whatever, dude. I like women. But what I'm. What I'm telling you is, will you have. Will you have a kids? You're on your third think.

B (134:26)

I don't know.

C (134:27)

I'm.

B (134:27)

I'm pretty good, I think. You know, we've talked about it. We've also talked about adopting kids, but. But you know, I don't know. I've. I got a lot going on. I got Henry, I've. I've ra. I mean, I know what it's like to raise a child. I know what it's like to love a child. I know what it's like for a child to love me. I'm not missing anything, so. But you never know. You never know. We could have a child. But right now my life is very, very busy and I think I have other things that I'm supposed to be doing right now rather than raising a baby at this particular moment in my life. And I have a lot of work to do right now. And, man, maybe. Maybe a child will be in the future.

A (135:19)

That's fair.

B (135:20)

But. But you asked about nieces and nephews. Yes, I do. I have quite a. Like, all my siblings have children and. Yep, I'm wild Uncle Stephen that goes around the world singing his songs. They're a little bit. I'm sure they're like, what the hell is this, dude? Because all my family, like, are still in my hometown. They work on cars and, and they're very. It's very much a small town life. And then my weird ass does what he does. But they, they love it, though.

A (135:51)

Oh, I bet they're so proud of you. It's cool.

B (135:53)

Oh, yeah, they, they. I don't think they know what to think about any of it because they've seen me kind of live multiple lives in front of them. That's been one wild thing to see because my siblings had their children very young, just like my. My parents did. And so my niece. A lot of my nieces and nephews are older now, so that they remember me when I was a scientist and that's all I was doing. And then they remember when I quit my science job and I was waiting tables and bartending and just trying to get a publishing deal. And then they remember the guy that got a publishing deal and was writing songs for other people and my dad recording them on the big phone and all that. And now there's this chapter, so they've kind of got to see their uncle go through multiple identities. So. And if anything, I hope that it's been, you know, helpful for them to see that you're not stuck in any particular life. Like, you can live multiple lives, you can do all kinds of things, you know.

A (136:49)

Amen, man.

B (136:50)

And I think it's important for them to see that, you know, you know, life has chapters. It's not one chapter, you know, and you, you're writing your own book and you can make the chapters as long as you want, but there are only so many pages and.

A (137:07)

Amen.

B (137:09)

Amen, indeed.

A (137:10)

Well, thank you for helping us think about stuff, man, for giving us some of your music over the years. Dude, I'd love to get together and we could talk again sometime. I feel like there's other avenues of things we could talk about, and sometimes I. I realize it's better, you know, to just get together and talk again sometime.

B (137:24)

Yeah.

A (137:24)

So that way we could go down different roads and think about other stuff. I think today it's been nice to Just to talk about. About, like. Yeah, relate, like familiar relationships and how some things can influence you and. Yeah. What it's like living like your father's dream out. We never talked about the theory of evolution. We can get to that next time maybe.

B (137:43)

Yeah, we can. I'll put a whole presentation for you together.

A (137:47)

Well, I'll do the more IND while you're gone. I think I might hit a pet and zoo or something while you're gone and see if I can get a little bit more.

B (137:54)

Come on. Re.

A (137:55)

Research done, dude.

B (137:56)

Well, I gotta say, I. I probably owe you money because I feel like I could have paid a therapist a lot of money. I've never had therapy in my life, but really probably do need it. Haven't. But you said something that was so, like, insane earlier about the quiet part, you know, about. Do you think, you know, you were quiet because you didn't want to affect the world around you to you? Yeah, I think, like, like I said, that really rocked my world, so to speak. I'll be thinking about that for a long time. There's certain things that we as songwriters say to some, sometimes to somebody, and it. It kind of flips a switch or it makes them think about something they've thought about for a long time totally differently. And that. That was a paradigm shift. And I thank you for it. So if anything, I walked away with. With a. An incredible piece of knowledge that I. Like I said I could have. Could have never even found in therapy, and if I had, it would have cost a lot of money. So. Thank you. Oh, you won't.

A (139:02)

You're welcome, man. No, you've all. You've already. You've paid me. You paid in advance, dude, so many times I've listened to your songs in moments where I needed something or to process something or just to remember my father, you know? Like, I like, you know, one thing about my dad. I remember he liked to whisk and he had change in his pockets all the time. So if I hear change. You don't hear change in people's pockets anymore. They used to be a thing, you know, like a older man, he'd have change in his keys in his pockets. And now like a Lot of car doors are just auto entry, and it's hooked to your phone, and people don't have change anymore. But that, like, when I want to think about my dad, I'll, like, that's one of the first things I'll lay there and think about is the sound of change in somebody's pocket kind of, you know?

B (139:40)

But that was his song. Song.

A (139:42)

Yeah. Yeah, that was his song.

B (139:44)

That was like, my dad always whistled. He always had a song in his head. He was always whistling a song or humming a song or singing a song. He, like, he was a song like, you know, he was either riding a song wave or. Or just, you know, being a song without being one. Yeah, but, you know, like, you know, but yeah, there. There was always, like, a sound to him. It sounds like your dad had the same sound.

A (140:07)

Oh, yeah. He was in Joyous Hench Instrument. But yeah, if we think of ourselves as a song, it's like, what song am I when I go into the room with people? And, you know, and you can be different songs. Sometimes you're a separate song. Maybe when it's just you by yourself or. Or your music's kind of off and you're just sort of listening. But, yeah, it's like, what kind of song do I bring into the world? You know? And then do I just play the same song over and over again? And maybe I do that because I just. It's therapeutic to myself, you know?

B (140:30)

Yeah.

A (140:31)

I don't know. It's. But it's been fascinating, man. It's been fascinating to be a fan of yours. It's been fascinating to get to share your music with other people. I've done that a bunch to connect with them.

B (140:40)

Thank you.

A (140:41)

You know, tell my brother, like, hey, man, I love this song, you know, and. And then he can call me back and like, oh, I see why you like it. You know, and just things like that, that. That can bring people closer together.

B (140:51)

So.

A (140:51)

Thank you so much, man.

B (140:52)

Thank you. You shared this m. Our music. My music a lot on your show, and you talked about it a lot.

A (140:58)

I remember Miranda Lambert was in, and we both loved him. Yeah, well, everybody loves to talk about you behind your back, Stephen, so I figured we would do it in front of you.

B (141:05)

Well, I'm. I'm grateful either way that anybody is talking about this music. And you've. You've been a. An early champion, Theo.

A (141:12)

Oh, well, I don't know if that's true, but thank you, dude. And Evan Bartels is another great guy. If you're listening to his music. God. I mean, there's just some people that can just make me feel something, you know? And so thank you, dude. Thank you for helping us feel if. Would you honor us and play a song or two before you leave?

B (141:29)

Do it.

A (141:29)

Let's go. All right.

B (141:31)

Let's do it. Let play some Gary.

A (141:33)

Let's do it, man. Ladies and gentlemen, Steven Wilson, Jr.

B (141:40)

Thank you, sir.

C (141:51)

Gary these days Been lying in his bed, man Working on the same car Going on a decade Scribbles on junk mail don't draw attention I never really noticed but now that I mention it Ain't a lot of boys named Gary these days. Born with a cigarette glued to their face Fixing about anything a hammer can't handle Saving on the money Cause a Gary dawn gamble. Ain't a lot of girls gone by Debbie anymore. They got the same nicotine pouring out their pores Time leaves town but the minute hand stays.

B (142:39)

There ain't a lot.

C (142:40)

Of boys named Gary these days. A Gary these days Been worried about the bad news There ain't a lot of teenagers filling up the church pe. No burning bush lights don't talk to his brother the people even still say grace before supper. There ain't a lot of boys named Gary these days Born with a cigarette glued to their face Fixing bound anything a hammer can't handle Saving on the money cause of Gary don't gamble. Ain't a lot of girls going by Debbie anymore. But they got the same nicotine pouring out their pores. Time leaves town but the minute hand stays. There ain't a lot of boys named yet eerie these days. He believes in God Believes in a little black panties. I had a weird suspicion with the light out on the front.

B (144:27)

Poor.

C (144:31)

Hard medication poured down where the drain pours. He holds his left arm while his parakeet prays. Has anybody seen much of Gary these days? Does anybody seen much of Gary these days? No, there ain't a lot of boys ain't a lot of boys ain't. A lot of boys ain't.

B (145:10)

Yeah, yeah.

A (145:16)

Yeah.

B (145:19)

Sam.

A (146:03)

What are you doing? Like that. It's just fun, huh? It's almost like the door closes on it or something.

B (146:10)

It's like the. You know, Gary dies, and it's almost like the door closes on Gary.

A (146:16)

It's. Gary said it is, and there's enough Gary's out there.

B (146:19)

There's not. I mean, they're a gay breed, dude.

A (146:21)

Well, they should have a. They should have a. A museum that has Gary's in it.

B (146:28)

I agree. You know, I always Thought there would be a. A great idea for a Gary Busey museum called. The Gary Busey Museum.

A (146:36)

Oh, I like that. Yeah, the museum. Yeah. Yeah, he should have that.

B (146:40)

I think so. And you go in, and it's just, like, a bunch of Point Break memorabilia.

A (146:45)

Yeah.

B (146:45)

And, like, just.

A (146:48)

Yeah, a lot of good beauty stuff. He was in Make It Too Count. Yeah. A lot of movies and some of his cameos. Even does now.

B (146:56)

Could be okay.

A (146:57)

Yeah.

B (146:57)

He, like, breaks the fourth wall. I love that about him.

A (147:00)

He.

B (147:00)

He looks at the camera.

A (147:01)

Camera.

B (147:02)

You notice that, like in movies, like, he, like, looks at the camera, but.

A (147:07)

Now that you say it, he breaks the fourth orders of existence of being human.

B (147:09)

He does. Yeah.

A (147:10)

He shatters right through it.

B (147:11)

He speaks in acronyms.

A (147:13)

And it reminds me of a rare name, dude, that they. Or Debbie we had. Was that Debbie in the song Debbie? Yeah, we had. What was our Ms. Robin? That was our lady at our kindergarten. And I would not sleep. I couldn't. Nap time or whatever. So she started to notice it, and she let me go outside and watch her son smoke when we're kids. And her hair, she goes, if you can't sleep, you can come watch me smoke. And sometimes that was your.

B (147:38)

That was your Debbie.

A (147:39)

And sometimes I would need some sleep, so I'd be like, I'm gonna sleep today, or whatever. But then probably two days out of.

B (147:44)

The week, I'd go out there, watch Robin smoke.

A (147:46)

Tell me about her husband and stuff like that. And her hair was kind of like this feathered sort of. Kind of.

B (147:51)

That's a total robin.

A (147:52)

She, like. I think she looked exactly like a man. But she was beautiful, though. To me, she was probably one of the hottest. She was a woman that was. Would talk to me, so. She was stunning.

B (148:00)

It was incredible.

A (148:01)

God, there was something like that.

B (148:02)

Just to watch her Robin smoke. Not the bird. Yeah, the human. A human robin.

A (148:09)

We talk a lot about your. Your quote. I know it's not your quote, but grief is only love that's got no place to go. We talk a lot about that man on here. We've mentioned it a few times. You think you could play that for us?

B (148:19)

I could, yeah. I'd be happy to.

A (148:20)

Would you mind?

B (148:21)

It take just a second for me to tune up for it.

A (148:23)

Okay.

C (148:40)

Life is a battlefield and it'll drag you right through hell that's like a rattlesnake the kind that you just don't see on the trail I miss my.

B (148:56)

Father.

C (149:00)

The kind of pain I pray don't fade away for the ones guide me Down a road, yeah Grief is There's only love that's got no place to go from my great granddad in the ground all the ghosts in my hometown yeah they're the ones that find me down the road, yeah Grief is only love that's got no place to go if yeah Grief is only love. The world is a cannonball so deal with the feelings you can't hide God gave us alcohol when we need to leave I'm all inside I don't feel.

B (150:05)

Like I crying.

C (150:09)

That I just keep.

B (150:12)

Crying.

C (150:15)

For the ones above to guide me down a road, yeah Grief is only love that's got no place to go but my great granddad in the ground all the ghosts in my hometown yeah they're the ones that find me down our road, yeah Grief is only love that got no place to go yeah Grief is only love. Grief is only love. Grief is only love.

B (151:16)

I.

C (151:18)

Don'T feel like crying.

B (151:23)

I.

A (151:25)

Just.

B (151:26)

Keep crying.

C (151:29)

For the ones above to guide me down a road yeah Grief is only lonely Got no place to go so hang on to the and let it grab on and the only thing for certain is it's out of my control and grief is only love that's got no place to go yeah Grief is only love that's got no place to go yeah Grief is only love. Grief is only love. Grief is only love. Grief is only love.

A (152:42)

Yeah. That's awesome, man. Thank you.

B (152:55)

How we feel sound okay?

A (152:57)

It sounds great, dude. Yeah. Just. Thank you. Yeah, it's just nice.

B (153:00)

Thank you, Theo, for everything, man. Thank you. Trevin, was that okay?

A (153:05)

Awesome, dude. He's never used profanity in here, so he's gonna get.

B (153:11)

Kristen is alive.

A (153:12)

Hey, that's what's going on, dude.

B (153:15)

Thank you so much.

A (153:16)

Thank you so much, dude.

B (153:17)

Thank you. You're awesome. Thank you.

A (153:18)

And I love it. And thank you for sharing and helping us feel and making it okay for people to. To. To feel stuff and. Yeah.

B (153:25)

Yeah, I think. Yeah, It's. It's. It's time to feel things because what else do we have if we ain't got feelings? I think it's the only thing that separates us from the rest robots at this point.

A (153:37)

Yeah.

B (153:37)

So let's lean into what we got.

A (153:39)

Amen. Lean in what makes us real.

B (153:40)

Yes, Sir.

A (153:41)

Stephen Wilson Jr. Thank you so much, brother.

B (153:44)

Thank you. God bless you.

A (153:45)

You too.

B (153:45)

Thank you.

A (153:46)

Amen.

C (153:47)

Now I'm just floating on the breeze and I feel I'm falling like these leaves I must be cornerstone.

B (153:58)

Oh but.

C (153:59)

When I reach that ground I'LL share this peace of mind I found I can feel it in my bones but it's gonna take.