E543 Dr. Ryan Martin

Summary

Podcast Summary: This Past Weekend w/ Theo Von – Episode E543 with Dr. Ryan Martin

Release Date: November 8, 2024

In this engaging episode of "This Past Weekend with Theo Von," host Theo Von delves deep into the intricate world of anger with his guest, Dr. Ryan Martin. Dr. Martin, an esteemed psychologist and Dean at the College of Arts, Humanities, and Social Sciences at the University of Wisconsin Green Bay, brings a wealth of knowledge and personal insights to the conversation. Together, they explore the roots of anger, its manifestations, and effective strategies for managing this powerful emotion.

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1. Understanding Anger: Definition and Expression

Dr. Ryan Martin begins by elucidating the fundamental nature of anger. He defines anger as the emotional desire to lash out, typically arising when an individual feels wronged, treated unfairly, or when their goals are obstructed.

Dr. Ryan Martin [06:25]: "Anger is the emotional desire to lash out. It's associated with having been wronged, treated unfairly, or having had your goals blocked."

Theo Von relates this to his personal experiences, highlighting how anger doesn't always manifest overt hostility but can stem from deeply ingrained family dynamics.

Theo Von [03:24]: "Sometimes, what shows as anger isn't hostility or lack of love, but something ingrained from growing up."

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2. Personal Triggers and Experiences: Theo's Anger Triggers and Type A Personality

Theo Von shares his struggle with anger, attributing it to unrealistic expectations placed on others and himself. He identifies with the Type A personality—characterized by ambition, competitiveness, and a relentless drive for success—which often correlates with increased frustration and impatience.

Theo Von [06:49]: "I've been noticing recently a lot of it is unrealistic expectations. I have a lot of expectations that people should know how to do things the way I would like them to be done."

Dr. Martin connects this to his own experiences, discussing how high expectations can lead to persistent frustration when others fail to meet them.

Dr. Ryan Martin [08:10]: "People who are Type A think, 'the people should,' and when others let them down, it slows them down, and they don't like it."

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3. Different Types and Spectrum of Anger

Dr. Martin outlines anger as existing on a continuum, ranging from mild frustration to extreme rage. He emphasizes that anger can stem from various sources, whether it's losing keys in the morning or witnessing severe injustices.

Dr. Ryan Martin [14:49]: "Anger exists on a spectrum—from mild frustration like losing your keys to extreme anger in response to severe injustices."

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4. Healthy vs. Unhealthy Ways to Process Anger

A significant portion of the discussion centers on effective methods to handle anger. Dr. Martin debunks the myth of catharsis—the idea that expressing anger physically (e.g., rage rooms, punching bags) alleviates it. Instead, research indicates that such methods can exacerbate anger over time.

Dr. Ryan Martin [19:38]: "All the research we have on catharsis tells us it doesn't work. It feels good at the time, but people who use that mechanism stay angry and get angrier over time."

Conversely, he advocates for strategies that promote relaxation and problem-solving, such as deep breathing, mindful walking, and channeling anger into constructive actions like activism.

Dr. Ryan Martin [13:28]: "What you need to do when you're angry is to find ways to calm down and relax. Deep breaths, mindful walking—these help de-escalate your anger."

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5. The Role of Social Media and Modern Society in Amplifying Anger

Theo and Dr. Martin explore how modern technology, particularly social media and the 24/7 news cycle, has intensified the visibility and frequency of anger. Constant exposure to negative content and divisive narratives can heighten stress and anxiety, contributing to pervasive anger in society.

Dr. Ryan Martin [48:31]: "People are only seeing a very specific sliver of others' lives and are not engaging regularly with those who are different, which fuels anger."

They discuss how algorithms prioritize content that elicits strong emotional reactions, especially anger, to maximize engagement and profitability.

Theo Von [60:50]: "The algorithm does that, you know, or the possibility to always have it at your fingertips. Because I'll find if I'd rather just chill or meditate or if I'd rather go find something to make me angry."

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6. Anger in Relationships and Parenting: Coping Strategies

The conversation delves into how anger affects personal relationships and parenting. Dr. Martin emphasizes the importance of communication and emotional intelligence, advocating for teaching children to identify and process their emotions constructively.

Dr. Ryan Martin [75:46]: "Helping kids develop the tools to identify what they're feeling and understanding the root causes is crucial for emotional resilience."

Theo shares his own experiences growing up in an environment rife with anger, underscoring the lasting impact of parental modeling on children's emotional development.

Theo Von [117:55]: "We grew up in a home where there was a lot of anger. It was probably our number one emotion that we had."

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7. Road Rage: Why It's So Prevalent and Dangerous

Road rage emerges as a focal point in the discussion, with Dr. Martin highlighting the inherent triggers within driving—such as goal obstruction and anonymity of other drivers—that make it a prime scenario for anger escalation. The lack of clear social norms and the high stakes involved can lead to dangerous confrontations.

Dr. Ryan Martin [123:51]: "Driving is the absolute perfect scenario for leading to anger. If you were an evil genius, you would create driving."

They touch upon the alarming rise in road rage incidents, emphasizing the need for better emotional regulation while driving to prevent fatal outcomes.

Theo Von [124:35]: "Road rage is a factor in more than 50% of all car crashes that end in fatality."

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8. Long-term Resolutions: Processing Anger from Childhood and Building Emotional Resilience

Dr. Martin discusses the enduring effects of unprocessed anger from childhood, asserting that it's never too late to address and heal from past grievances. He advocates for emotional resilience—the ability to understand, evaluate, and constructively channel emotions.

Dr. Ryan Martin [85:02]: "We can absolutely still have anger and resentment from childhood that we continue to be mad about forever. But it's never too late to process some of that stuff."

Theo reflects on his own journey, recognizing the importance of self-forgiveness and altering long-held perceptions to foster emotional well-being.

Theo Von [86:38]: "Sometimes it's like I'm upset at myself because I can't forgive the person. That's crazy."

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9. Final Thoughts: Lessons and Conclusions

Concluding the episode, both Theo and Dr. Martin reiterate the significance of intentional emotional management. They stress the importance of setting realistic goals, practicing self-compassion, and fostering open communication to mitigate the negative impacts of anger.

Theo Von [134:32]: "Preserving your peace is really key. Holding onto how I want this to end is good for any situation."

Dr. Martin emphasizes the role of proactive emotion management in achieving desired outcomes and maintaining personal and professional relationships.

Dr. Ryan Martin [135:50]: "Having your desired outcome in mind helps you avoid diverging into harmful directions."

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Key Takeaways

• Anger is a natural emotion rooted in perceived injustices or obstacles. Understanding its triggers is crucial for effective management.

• Unhealthy expressions of anger, such as physical venting or rage rooms, can worsen the emotion over time. Instead, adopting calming and problem-solving strategies is more beneficial.

• Modern societal factors, including social media and constant news exposure, amplify anger by perpetuating negative interactions and reducing genuine human connections.

• Effective communication and emotional education in relationships and parenting build resilience and healthier handling of anger.

• Road rage is a significant safety concern, driven by the inherent frustrations and lack of personal accountability in driving scenarios.

• Processing past anger, especially from childhood, is essential for emotional well-being, and it's never too late to address and heal from unresolved feelings.

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Notable Quotes:

• Theo Von [03:24]: "Sometimes, what shows as anger isn't hostility or lack of love, but something ingrained from growing up."

• Dr. Ryan Martin [06:25]: "Anger is the emotional desire to lash out. It's associated with having been wronged, treated unfairly, or having had your goals blocked."

• Dr. Ryan Martin [19:38]: "All the research we have on catharsis tells us it doesn't work. It feels good at the time, but people who use that mechanism stay angry and get angrier over time."

• Dr. Ryan Martin [48:31]: "People are only seeing a very specific sliver of others' lives and are not engaging regularly with those who are different, which fuels anger."

• Dr. Ryan Martin [123:51]: "Driving is the absolute perfect scenario for leading to anger. If you were an evil genius, you would create driving."

• Theo Von [124:35]: "Road rage is a factor in more than 50% of all car crashes that end in fatality."

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This episode offers a comprehensive exploration of anger, blending scientific insights with personal anecdotes. Dr. Ryan Martin provides actionable strategies for listeners to manage their anger constructively, emphasizing the importance of understanding, communication, and emotional resilience in fostering healthier interpersonal relationships and personal well-being.

Transcript

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Hi, I'm Angie Hicks, co founder of angie.

[Theo Von]

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[Dr. Ryan Martin]

And for decades, Angie's helped millions of homeowners hire skilled pros for the projects that matter. Get all your jobs done.

[Theo Von]

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[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Shine on me and I will find a song I will sing. I think the thing I was really I thought was cool is just the variety of guests you've had on over the years. I mean it was like, it was impressive. It's a cool.

[Theo Von]

Thanks, man.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Yeah, it was a cool group.

[Theo Von]

Yeah. I mean there's been some real smart people, some real perverts that have come on here, some real creeps. We've had all kinds.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Yeah. Well, good. Well, I hope I fall in that first category. I hope I'm not one of the perverts of the Creep. Yeah.

[Theo Von]

Tbd, brother.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

We'll see where we end. We'll see where we end.

[Theo Von]

Dr. Ryan Martin is here from. You're a professor at University of Wisconsin, Green Bay.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Yep. Right. That is right.

[Theo Von]

And. Yeah. And we wanted to talk with you today about anger, because that's the world you work in, right? Anger.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Yep.

[Theo Von]

Okay.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Exactly. Yeah. So I've been working at the university for the last 19 years. I've been teaching psychology for 18 of those years. I actually just started a year ago as the Dean of Arts, Humanities and Social Sciences. But most of that time, I've been researching. And actually, even before that, I was researching anger and teaching and writing about anger.

[Theo Von]

And what made you get into it? Did you have, like, some things when you was a child that got you really angry?

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Yeah, some of it was that. Some of it. You know, there's this long story about my family and what was called the Martin temper. Right. And it referred to mostly the men in my family who had. Who were, like, quick to. Quick to get mad. Oh, yeah. Starting with my dad, but not ending with him. Right. And so both my brothers, me and, you know. So it was something I was just. It's interesting because I think people assume, you know, anger is, you know, that it was, like, hostile or uncomfortable or that we didn't love each other.

[Theo Von]

Like professional wrestling or something.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Yes, exactly. But it wasn't that. It was, like. It was a really loving home. Like, I get along great with my siblings. We've got really great relationships. All of us have chilled out quite a bit since then, but so it's just something I grew up with and it's a theme. Yeah. And when I went to college, decided I was interested in studying it more, and then went to grad school and started working with a professor who studied it. His name is Dr. Eric Dahlin, and he was researching anger, and it just became something I was really passionate about and really interested in.

[Theo Von]

So, yeah, it seems like it was kind of a family affair then. Kind of. And so obviously that's. Maybe that's just a sign out of the gate that it's something for you to, like, reflect on and learn about, you know, so when people, like. Because I get angry all the time, I'm pretty angry a lot, even though maybe sometimes I don't seem like it. But when people say anger, like, what do they mean? Like what? Like, I know it's so basic, but, like, what is anger?

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Yep. Yeah. And so I think what you just said is really, really important. Like, you know, you said, I'm angry a lot of the time, but people don't realize it. And I think that's because something I think you realize that a lot of people don't is that anger is just the feeling. It's just the emotion. We can express that emotion in a gajillion different ways. And some people express that anger by yelling and screaming. Some people express that anger by suppressing it. Some people, like me, they just do a relatively good job of controlling it, of using it to problem solve and so on. To answer your question, what is it? It's the emotional desire to lash out. And it's associated with having been wronged, having been treated unfairly, or having had your goals blocked. Like, I want to do something and something's interfering with me trying to get that thing done. So it's why road rage is so common. It's because by definition, you're on your way somewhere, stuff's getting in your way and you start to get mad about it.

[Theo Von]

Yeah.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

What are your triggers? Like when you say you get angry all the time? What are some of the things that. If I can ask.

[Theo Von]

Yeah, no, thanks for asking, Ryan. For me, I've been noticing recently a lot of it is unrealistic expectations. So I have a lot of just generally unrealistic expectations that people should know how to do things the way I would like them to be done. Got it. So that out of the gate has been a big one for me.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Would you describe yourself as like, kind of type A? Do you know what that means? Like, type A personality. Have you ever like, blood or whatever? No, no, no. Like a. Like it's a personality type of being competitive, really aggressive. A lot of successful people are type A. I'm type A. Right. And even it's like, I'm really competitive, I'm really aggressive. I'm really type A.

[Theo Von]

Let me see. Right here we have it. Our personality is defined by traits like ambition, drive, and competitiveness, which can lead to a high level of success. Success. But type A personalities can also be impatient, hostile, and even have trouble relaxing. Yeah, I wouldn't go to hostile. I don't get there. But I can get like, yeah, very impatient. Have trouble relaxing. Dude, I'll notice. I will be urinating. Right. And in the middle of urinating, I will flush the toilet just because I don't want to. I want to get it off my checklist. Yeah, it's like it's already done.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

You got a to do list, right? Yeah. Right.

[Theo Von]

So it's still weird because I'll then still urinate into the toilet. But it's like, I've already. It's like, yeah, but so impatience. Yeah. Is definitely a big one for me.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

You got to learn to time that just right so that it's like, just as you're finishing, it's going down.

[Theo Von]

Yeah, yeah. I'm sure that's how I started. But then after a while, it was like, well, why do I. You know? But. But I noticed that about myself. Like, that's a real thing that I noticed that's like, that, for me was like, wow, I have a lot of impatience, you know?

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Yeah. One of the reason I ask is because what you said about, like, setting unrealistic expectations is that's really common. People who are kind of type A, Right. Who have these high. This competitive trait is that they think, hey, the people should. I want to accomplish a lot. And me accomplishing a lot relies on other people to get their stuff done and taken care of. And if they don't, if they let me down, that slows me down, and I don't like it. Right. And so it's. It's. This is something I actually deal with relatively often, too. I get an idea in my head. That idea is reliant on other people doing their job in a particular way. And I think to myself, they should be able to get that done by whatever day.

[Theo Von]

Right.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

And then they don't, you know, and it. In fairness to them, it's because they've got other stuff they're doing. Right.

[Theo Von]

I mean, yeah, totally. Yeah. It makes sense that they don't or that things don't go a certain way. It's just like, in certain moments, it's tough for me. You know, it's tough for me to notice that it's like, that's not what I'm thinking. Right. But that for sure, is a big trigger for me, I notice, is unrealistic expectations. Yeah.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

So.

[Theo Von]

And I'm sure I'm not the only person that deals with this type of thing. Yeah. So what. Why do people get mad, like. Or get angry in any given moment? Kind of like, is it. Is there a real science behind it?

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Yep. And this is the stuff I study. So.

[Theo Von]

Okay.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

So why people get angry in a particular moment is usually a confluence of, like, three things right there. So there's a trigger. There's the thing that happened. Right. And I tend to. I encourage people to be really specific about what that thing is. Right. So driving down the street, yellow light in front of you, you think you can make it. Car in front of you. Stops, though. Right. So now you've got to stop. So that's the trigger. Right. Then there is your mood at the time of that trigger. So are you stressed? Are you fatigued? Are you already angry about something? Are you anxious? Whatever? Are you too warm or too cold? Physically uncomfortable? Hungry? All those things make it more likely that you're going to respond with anger in that moment. And then there's. There's how you interpret that behavior. And this is where those expectations come in. Right. So do I interpret this person as. Do I look at this and say, oh, this is going to ruin my day now I'm going to be late to work. I'm not going to get done what I need to get done? Do you interpret it as, oh, that idiot. Why did they slow down? Right. And so do you label them in that sort of negative way. You totally could have made that, man. Yeah. Or do you interpret it as, hey, it's gonna slow me down two minutes, I'll still get to work, Everything's gonna be okay. Right?

[Theo Von]

That third one sounds like the healthiest one.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Yep.

[Theo Von]

But I'll even go sometimes, like, this bastard left his house just to fucking strand me here.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Yep. He's just here to ruin my life.

[Theo Von]

Yeah. Or I'll. Yeah. Sometimes a part of my brain will even go there.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

You know, we have these thoughts. There's like, there are a couple specific types of thoughts that we have when we're faced with that kind of provocation.

[Theo Von]

Okay.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

And one of them is what you just described. It's this inflammatory l. Labeling. Right. So I label this guy as a bastard, as an asshole, as a loser, whatever. Right. Another one is that demandingness that we talked about. It's like, God, why can't they just do the job the way they're supposed to? Whatever. What we call making these dictatorial demands. Things need to be done the way I want them, when I want them. There's what we call overgeneralizing. So it's. I don't know if you ever say, like, God, this always happens to me. You know, where you label things in that sort of super exaggerated way, there's catastrophizing, which is when you blow things out of proportion. You say, this is going to ruin my day, my week, my month, my year. Right. This is the. My career is over now. Right.

[Theo Von]

This ruins everything. Christmas is done.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Yeah, exactly.

[Theo Von]

Right.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Yep. And then there's the last one is what we call misattributing causation. But it's where you just blame the wrong people for Things, you know, you say or you decide they did it on purpose. Right. What you were saying before about like, this guy's just doing this to fuck with me. Right? That's you're making assumptions about now, and I know you're not really making those assumptions, but you're making assumptions about why they did a thing.

[Theo Von]

Right?

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Yeah. And blown it out. So all those things come together into like this recipe for why you get mad in a particular moment. And then even separate from that is what we do when we're mad. Right. And so for me, every now and then I'll like just have a moment where I'll like yell, not at someone, but just sort of at the heavens. I might, you know, sometimes pound my fist on the table or something like that when I'm, when I'm really mad. A lot of times though, I like, I'll sort of simmer inside a little bit. I'll get frustrated. I'll sort of take a. We do this thing in my office. We've done it for a long time where when we're feeling frustrated, we'll say, okay, let's start with an unproductive response. Meaning let's just take a minute to vent for a second about how we hate this. Right. We'll take like two minutes and then we'll stop and we'll say, okay, now let's problem solve. What do we need to do? Right. How do we work through this?

[Theo Von]

Right. Let some of the pressure off.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Yep. Yeah, exactly.

[Theo Von]

When it comes to anger, are there different types? So like we kind of have looked at like a situation that and triggers and then you end up angry. Are there different types of anger? Like, are there?

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Yeah, I mean, I think anger can come from a lot of different places and people can tend to express it in lots of different ways. I tend to think of anger as existing on a continuum. Meaning on one end you've got mild frustration like, hey, I'm leaving the house, can't find my keys. It's irritating, I misplaced something, it's a bummer.

[Theo Von]

Yeah, my shoes don't fit that good.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Right? Stuff like that. And then there's more intense frustration that comes from like, hey, now I'm really starting to run late, this dude that got my way on the road or whatever. Right. More intense all the way up to extreme anger of when you see a politician do something that you just hate, or when you're spouse treats you badly, or when your parents treat you badly or whatever, a friend takes advantage of you. Like the real extreme, cruel, terrible Things. Right. And it exists. And so it's everything from, like, mild frustration to just being livid with rage. That whole spectrum.

[Theo Von]

So there's just kind of a spectrum of anger. It's like, there's small amounts, there's larger. There's things that are really intense.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Yep.

[Theo Von]

I guess in my next thought, like, because anger gives me a sense sometimes it like an illusionary sense that I have some control over what's going on. Yeah, that's. But it. But at the same time, I feel out of control, like, because anger sometimes makes me want to take an action. So that makes me feel like I'm in control.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Yeah.

[Theo Von]

But then, like, I'll get so. Like, just sometimes just blinded by being angry that it's like, I know I'm out of control, you know?

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Yeah. This is one of the things that. So I don't know if you've ever had this experience, but have you ever been so angry that you started to cry? Is that something you can think of?

[Theo Von]

Yeah. Not as an adult, but as a child.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Yeah. Okay, interesting.

[Theo Von]

I've been sad, but that I cried, but not anger, that I've cried.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

So there are some people, and I discovered this on social media, like, there are a lot of people who sometimes when they get really angry, they'll start to cry. Like, that's their sort of go to expression. And the interesting thing is the people I've talked to hate this about themselves. They will tell me, I can't stand it. It drives me crazy because I'm really mad. And instead of, like, I just start. I start to cry. And I think a big part of what's going on, there is a pretty intense feeling of helplessness. It's like, not only am I being treated badly, not only am I being treated unfairly and having my goals blocked, but there's nothing I can do about it. I'm just stuck. And that hurts, you know, and it. It doesn't feel good and it feels scary. And so I think for a lot of people, that hopelessness and helplessness lands them in a place where they just start to tear up. Like, it sort of dovetails with sadness in this very real way. Whereas for people like me, when I'm feeling particularly sort of helpless or hopeless and angry, I tend to focus on, okay, so where are the places where I can make a difference? Where are the places where I can take a little bit of power back? Right. And try and solve this problem? Can I solve the whole big problem? Maybe not, but maybe I can make a dent, you know? And do what I can do. And then. And that at least gives me some power to, like, let things go.

[Theo Von]

Yeah. Because that's the biggest thing is the anger feels like it has to be let go. That's the thing about anger. Like, other feelings. Like, you know, anger, it feels like you have to, you know, like, happy. I've never been so happy. I then, like, went and dressed up like a clown and ran out into the street, you know?

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Yeah.

[Theo Von]

But I've been so angry that I'll kick. I will. Damn. I will kick a clown if it comes near me, you know, like, so I, you know, I. But, you know, there's. There's. Anger's the one that feels like it has to get out of your body.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Yeah.

[Theo Von]

You know, it's got that gremlin, and it just literally feels like it needs to leave you somehow.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Well, it's because it. That's a really interesting thought. And I think it's because I think you're right. Anger tends to linger in ways that other emotions don't necessarily linger.

[Theo Von]

Yeah. Dude. And loiters.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Yeah. And it's interesting because joy or happiness or excitement, that tends to dissipate relatively quickly. More quickly than I think people realize. Right. Those feelings don't last.

[Theo Von]

Yeah. Oh, the half life on joy, it's not very long, probably.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Right.

[Theo Von]

But anger, you can still, like, you'll go get in your car, you'll drive somewhere, you'll start chewing in the bottom of your. Like, I didn't even know. Somehow I started chewing on my own teeth one time. I was like, what is even. You know, sometimes you can get so angry that you turn. You turn into a chew toy for yourself almost.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Yeah.

[Theo Von]

You know, like, I've just gotten so agitated. Yeah. What happens to anger if you. If we don't process it? And then how can you process it? Like. Like, what's a legitimate way to process it that's realistic?

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Well, can we start with some of the illegitimate ways?

[Theo Von]

Okay. Yes. And I say that because that's good.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Because it connects to something you just said, which is, you know, wanting. Because people want it out of their body. Right. And it feels like. And so we've been. Literally, for thousands of years, people have been talking about catharsis as a way of ridding our body of anger and thinking of ourselves almost like pressure cookers. Like, if we don't. If we don't open up the valve and release this anger, we'll blow up. Right.

[Theo Von]

Yeah.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

And so that's where a lot of these approaches, like, if you've ever heard of a rage room or like, you know, people punching a punching bag or hitting the gym or things like that. That's where those approaches come from is this idea that we got to. We got to let that out. And now here's the. Here's the thing. And people are going to throw rocks when I say this. But all of the research that we have on catharsis tells us it doesn't work.

[Theo Von]

It doesn't work like rage actions of getting it out physically that it doesn't work.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

It doesn't. It feels good at the time. And so people think, well, because it feels good, it must be good for me, it must help. But what we find is two things. First, over time, the people who use that as their mechanism stay angry and get angrier over time. We also find that right after. Moments after they did the study, and this is like 50 years old, so we've known for a long time. They did this study where they provoked people in the lab. Then they took half of them and they put them on a bicycle and said, just ride the bike as fast as you can. Exercise. The other half had to do this really ridiculous task where they were threading coins with a needle or something like that. Something boring and tedious. Then afterwards, they assessed to see how angry and aggressive they were. And the people who worked it out on the bike were way more aggressive than the people who, you know, did the other task. Because that exercise, it doesn't do it. It keeps. It keeps the angry thoughts at the surface. It keeps the intensity going, keeps your blood pressure going. What you need to do when you're angry is to actually find ways to calm down and relax. You need to take deep breaths, stuff like that. Rage rooms don't do that. Hitting a punching bag doesn't do that.

[Theo Von]

Wow. And I guess you feel like it does because again, anger is that it's that. I mean, it almost makes you act. It's like, you know, people do things in a fit of anger, in a fit of rage. It's like it. It's like this energy that's. It's almost like it's always leaving a diving board, you know, so to get that to that even, it almost feels like inertia or whatever. So to get it to stop, I think, is, you know, some of this kind of harrowing, I feel like. Right. Rage rooms invite people to engage with their anger, but do they actually work?

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Yeah.

[Theo Von]

This is a study that came out.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

I can't see who wrote it. Marcus Biddle? I don't know Marcus, rage rooms.

[Theo Von]

They just had one for women that they opened up.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

I saw this. Did you? Yeah, it's open that up.

[Theo Von]

Rage rooms for women.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Yeah, I think. Is it a rage room or do they take them out into the woods?

[Theo Von]

If they're taking them into the woods, I'm not getting involved with it. I'll let. Look, I'll let. As many ladies say, want just go ham inside of a bed, bath and body works or whatever with a shovel. I'll join them. But I. But if we. I don't think we need to like bring anybody into the woods.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Yeah, that's probably not great.

[Theo Von]

Can you see what's going on here, though? I just want to.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

I think there's like a New York Times article or something.

[Theo Von]

This was an article about rage. Women rage. Getting it out.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Yep.

[Theo Von]

Well, because sometimes my rage, it will almost feels like it blinds me.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Right.

[Theo Von]

You know, it's like it is so overcoming. Because if you don't. Yeah. So if. So if somebody doesn't process, I mean.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

I think like probably truly the worst thing people can do is that cathartic expression. It's like breaking stuff, exercising. Those are probably the bad ways. Right.

[Theo Von]

And I guess there's a. It just feels like that because physically you're doing something.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Yep.

[Theo Von]

Like, yeah, obviously I'm taking an action.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Yep.

[Theo Von]

There's an actual physical action. Then it feels like, oh, that should be helpful.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

And it is what your body wants to do. Right. Because I mean, if we define anger as the emotional desire to lash out, well, then your body wants to lash out. And so if you give it that, you know it's going to feel good. That doesn't. Again, that doesn't make it good for you. Right. We could talk about this with other. I mean, you know, I guess some other like bad ways to deal with your anger, but these are obvious to people is like doing drugs. Right. Overeating, you know, just calling a friend and screaming at them. Like those things are. Are bad for you. They're mean. Do they. Do they make you feel better? Sometimes in the moment they do for people. Right. But that doesn't make it good for them.

[Theo Von]

But sometimes I think it feels like doing one of those things is healthier than doing something physically dangerous.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Yes. Yep. I think so. You know, I think you're right. Although, I mean, long term, those things can be physically dangerous too.

[Theo Von]

For sure.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

But. But yeah, right.

[Theo Von]

Yeah. In the moment.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Yeah.

[Theo Von]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

And that's the. That's the worry actually, is that. So what we find is that people who use, like, if, if their approach to dealing with anger is I'm going to go punch this pillow, you know, or I'm going to go punch this punching bag or I'm going to tear phone books in half or whatever. Yeah. What we find is that becomes, it's like, you know, I have a, I used to have a soccer coach who would say practice makes permanent. Right. And it's like the way you practice something is how you'll do things in life. And if you practice your anger that way, well, then someday when you're mad, you're not gonna control yourself and you're gonna hit someone, you're gonna, you're gonna punch someone, you're gonna go after them. And so it ends up having those kinds of long term harmful consequences.

[Theo Von]

Damn, dude. God. I just.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

People don't like to hear this, by the way, when I talk about this. Just a couple weeks ago, I talk about this on Instagram and wow. I mean, new research comes out. 150 plus studies. It's an article by a guy named Dr. Brad Bushman, who's a huge monster anger researcher and aggression researcher in the field. And he does this study and he looks at 154 studies over time approximately, and finds that across all these studies, what does work is when you find ways to relax, to decrease arousal in the moment. Right. Grounding, deep breaths, all that stuff. What doesn't work is when you, when you, you raise arousal. Right, Right. You break stuff. Of course. I share this on Instagram.

[Theo Von]

Nobody wants to hear.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Nobody wants to hear that.

[Theo Von]

Yeah. Well, I think arouse is a great term too, to use because that's what's going on.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Right.

[Theo Von]

You are at a heightened state of arousal.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Right.

[Theo Von]

And it feels like dangerous arousal. Right. But even then I could see maybe if you're going to work out or get it out that way, you're keeping the arousal at a high level.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Right.

[Theo Von]

Because you're keeping like at least something inside you aroused.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Every now and then someone reaches out to me and asks if I'll open a rage room. No, if I'll support theirs, like, if I'll go and like do promote their rage room. And I have to tell them, no, thank you. Obviously, I haven't paid attention to what I have to say.

[Theo Von]

These places took abandoned warehouses and vacant offices and turned them into businesses made for organized chaos. Some are also marketed as an alternative to anger management.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Yeah, the one in my town has makes itself available for gender reveals.

[Theo Von]

Oh, really?

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

I don't know what that looks like.

[Theo Von]

I see that maybe I'm trying to think if you feed a cushion hard enough, like a couple twins pop out of it or something. I don't know. That's wild.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

You fill up a printer with either blue or pink toner.

[Theo Von]

Oh, there you go.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

You trash it till it spills all over.

[Theo Von]

Yeah, I don't know if that would be. I wonder if the rage room. A lot of them I've seen. Well, a lot of rooms. I noticed this happened too. There was a business like de evolution where a lot of escape rooms went under and then they turned into rage rooms.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Oh, interesting.

[Theo Von]

And then they just went out of business completely and turned into one bedroom apartments that have like a trap door in them or whatever. Dude. I remember there used to be a place in LA downtown. They'd have a couple. It was like a Vietnamese establishment, and you would put on like a dog bite suit and these guys would literally beat the smack out of you for like 80 bucks for 15 or 20 minutes.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Wow. My brother and I used to play that game when we were kids, actually. Yeah, we really would. We played this game where we would pile up a bunch of like. We were a sports family, right. So we had like all sorts of gear. We'd pile all this gear in the middle of the room and we'd draft items. Like we'd each take a thing and then you'd put it on. And then we had these big plastic tinker toys and we just beat the crap out of each other. Yeah, so it was great.

[Theo Von]

Yeah.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

He's a lot older than me though, so I usually lost.

[Theo Von]

Well, it sounds like he was. It seems very unfair that he would do that. Yeah, he's a lot older. Like how old? Like 12 years older.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Just five.

[Theo Von]

Oh, that's kind of fair. Even that's getting a little outside of the range of able to beat my brother age.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Yeah, agreed. You know, you should tell him that. We'll let him know.

[Theo Von]

Yeah. Yeah. Here's one right here. The rage room.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

There we go.

[Theo Von]

Oh, somebody hit a. Oh, maybe they did hit an ink toner. Yeah, a toner cartridge. Oh, there's something that had a dangerous gas in it. They said nerve gas.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Geez.

[Theo Von]

Yep, that's what you do.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Look, you gotta be careful.

[Theo Von]

Yeah, you gotta be careful. Yeah. Rate. I guess it's. I don't know if I've ever even been to one. I don't know if it was something that really excited me. So what would be healthy ways to process anger? I mean, some of them seem kind of obvious. They don't Seem that much fun, right?

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Yeah, no, that's true. I think there's two ways of thinking about this. The first way is to think about, okay, when I am angry, what do I do to deal with that anger? And that's where that study I was just telling you about 154 articles that essentially find. You got to find ways to deescalate. So what are those different mechanisms. And there are different ones for different people, but it's the deep breathing, it's mindful walking. It is. You go for a walk and you just think about your thoughts and try and relax. You think about nature, you think about whatever's going on. Cool. Study just came out, by the way, that found that college students who go for walks versus college students who go for walks and birdwatch. That the bird watching is actually better for their mental health than just going for walks. Really, it's kind of peeping Tom.

[Theo Von]

And on nature, I feel that's true.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Yeah. No, you're right. It's voyeuristic. It's like, look, this bird's just trying to live its life.

[Theo Von]

I know.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Here I am. Yeah.

[Theo Von]

Look at this bird just feeding his children. You're sitting there, just googling in the windows. It's kind of crazy.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

But get out of that bird's business.

[Theo Von]

Yeah.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

But I think what's happening is that it forces people to get out of their head. Right. And so it doesn't have to be birds. If you want to look at something else, if you feel more comfortable leaving those birds be, you can look at. You can just be like, I'm going to identify leaves.

[Theo Von]

Like, yeah, I'm just going to absorb something out here.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Yeah. And it's. Because then you're. It gets you out of your head to look at the thing and focus on the thing. And so, like, those kinds of de Escalation approaches are some of the best things to do. The truth is, though, there's. There's like infinite things you can do with your anger. And so sometimes, you know, you can. You can channel it into problem solving. You can say, I'm going to. Because ultimately what anger gives you is energy. Right? I mean, it gives you energy to confront the injustice. And so, you know, if you experience something that is truly unfair and you want to do something about it, well, there's lots of things you can do. Right. You can protest, you can write letters to the editor, you can donate money, you can join all these causes to try and solve those problems. That's a really good, healthy way to deal with your anger.

[Theo Von]

You can hire one of those planes to write something in the sky.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Exactly. Yeah, exactly.

[Theo Von]

Stop smoking. Love, Mom. It says on.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Yeah, Nice.

[Theo Von]

I know. My mom wanted me to stop.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Is that how she got you to stop? She rented a plane and. Nice.

[Theo Von]

She did. One year. Pretty sweet of her. Kind of crazy.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

That's really kind. Yeah.

[Theo Von]

But, yeah. So you can put your anger into something.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Yep.

[Theo Von]

Is that legit? Is that a real thing you can do? Like, put that in. Well, I guess you already have. Are activated.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Yeah. You know, I. And this is the example I use. I came home. So when my kids were young. You know, when you're. When your kids are young, like, the only thing in the world you want is a little bit of time to yourself. Right. At the house. And so I came home from work one day, and I think I knew in my head I had, like, 20 minutes before everybody else got home that I was just alone. Right. And I thought, I'm going to live my best life for 20 minutes. And then I checked the mail, and there was, like, a flyer in there.

[Theo Von]

I feel you, dude. Guys have the worst, best lives. It's like, I'm going to live it off, dude. And I'll just eat, like, I'll just find an old can of peaches or something and open them and just try one.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Just like a pudding cup. Like, here we go.

[Theo Von]

And your wife comes in and be like, oh. She's like, this is so sad.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Yeah, this is for 20 minutes I had this pudding cup.

[Theo Von]

Yeah. But I'm going to check this mail while everybody's just letting me be. I feel you, bro.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Exactly.

[Theo Von]

So we're idiots.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

So I checked the mail, and there was, like, a flyer in there for some political candidate who was just saying, like, nasty stuff about this. And I got so mad. So I spent that 20 minutes. I sent an email to the guy I didn't like saying, that was B.S. what's wrong with you? I sent another email to the guy I did like and said, like, hey, thanks. And then I donated money to the guy I was supporting. And so by the time I was done, family's home, you know?

[Theo Von]

Right.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

And. But, like, that's what. Like, I was exhausted when I came home, but anger gave me the energy to do something. Like, now, did I solve all the world's problems?

[Theo Von]

No.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

But, like, I did something, and it felt better afterwards to do that.

[Theo Von]

Right. And something that's more productive than just like. Yeah, yeah. Just, like, getting some spray paint and just tagging up a. Yeah. Writing profanity on a wall. Or doing.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Right.

[Theo Von]

I'm trying to think of. Or anything. Anything that could be negative. Right. So yeah, because it was the male that made you negative. So then you're like, what am I going to do with it now? But those are, those are like safe ways. Nobody's going to get hurt, right?

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Exactly. Yep.

[Theo Von]

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[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Yeah, I mean, it's one of it. So this is true of all emotions that when we, when we feel them, it's our. One of our brain's ways of like providing us information. Right. So when you're scared, that's your brain's. One of your brain's ways of saying, hey, there's a threat. Right. There's danger around. When you're sad, it means you've lost something. And it's your brain's way of telling you that Anger is one of your brain's ways of telling you that someone's treating you badly, that you've experienced this injustice and that you got to do something about it. And then when your fight or flight system kicks in, that's your brain's way of saying, like giving you the energy to deal with that. And so one of the best ways to handle anger is to channel that energy into solving whatever that problem is.

[Theo Von]

Something positive.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Yeah, it's.

[Theo Von]

Yeah, I feel like. But if you. Some of it could go. Because what if you tell Someone like, yeah, you should get into quilting or doing something that's progress, you know, and then they just quilt like a, you know, advertisement for Saw two or whatever, because that's how angry they are, you know? Like, that would be my biggest. But I guess that would be, like, at least a nice piece of art than they could sell. Yeah. So, yeah, I guess that does kind of make sense.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

I mean, so I love the saw2quilt idea. Makes me wonder if that exists, but probably. Yeah, but we should. But I mean, channeling your anger into art is a thing people do, right? I mean, that's a good, healthy way. I mean, poetry, other forms of writing, art.

[Theo Von]

It's so hard, though.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Oh, yeah.

[Theo Von]

It's so hard when I close my car door and I'm like, to then want to draw something.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Right.

[Theo Von]

Unless I just write how I feel and just show it. Like. But it's so hard. Like, I guess that's the thing. It's like, how do you get over that? Like, how do you get over, like, convert one moment into another so that you can. Because that's really the key, huh?

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Yep. Well, and I think this is, like, what it. What it takes to be. And ultimately, like, what I want and why I'm on social media and why. Why I write things is because I want people to have sort of a healthier relationship with their emotions. And sometimes what that takes is a de. Escalation in the moment so that you can still hang on to at least the thoughts of anger in a way that is healthy, that allows you to channel them into something positive. Right. Because the truth is, even those emails that I was talking about, I couldn't write those if I was in such a fit of rage that I wasn't making any sense. Right. You've got to come down a little bit.

[Theo Von]

Yeah. Even to get correct punctuation, you have to be almost like, at a four, right, at a nine. It's all caps. It is dangerous emojis that you can get off. You have a vpn.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

This is one of the things that I think actually has made electronic communication kind of dangerous for people. I used to have a professor when I was in college who said, hey, when you get an exam back, I don't want you to come talk to me about it for 24 hours. And I just want you to call, like, just take some time to think about it. Relax. You're emoting too strongly in that first 24 hours. Takes some time. But now. And that was easier to do back then because, you know, you weren't going to see them for a couple days anyways. You didn't have access to them the way you do now via email or whatever now. You know, I think when people get mad, it's so easy to fire off a quick response, to fire off an email, to fire off a tweet or a text or whatever that it. People can do things when they're feeling most enraged or when they're feeling most upset. It.

[Theo Von]

Yeah. Yeah. And then it's really made it almost tougher in person because you don't have, like, when you're talking to somebody, you can't just like, set them down for two or three minutes while you think about your answer.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Yep.

[Theo Von]

And pee again or whatever you do.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Yeah.

[Theo Von]

Or get you a little, you know, get you a little dessert or something. But yeah, that. It's almost gets like. We want to communicate less in person in a way because online communication is kind of easier.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Yeah, yeah, I think it is. I mean, I think it is for a couple of reasons. One is you do. It is in some good ways. Right. You have more time to think about what you want to say, and that's probably a good thing. But it's also easier in some bad ways in that you don't really. Like right now you and I are talking to each other and everything I'm seeing, I can see how you're responding to it in your face. Right. But if you and I were communicating over text, I have no idea how what I'm saying is impacting you. And so it's easier for me. It might be easier in that context to say something cruel or hurtful or hopeful even. Yeah. Because I'm not confronted with what it did to you when you got the message.

[Theo Von]

So I wonder what that does to us as people over time. Right. Because it used to be like, if you wanted to, well, I guess you could write a letter, but. But it used. Yeah, you had to. There was. It used to be probably more often you had to do face to face.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Right.

[Theo Von]

More often.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Yep.

[Theo Von]

And so you had to get the real reactions. You had to get the real feelings of what was going on. Whereas if you can just message it, it's still scary, but it's not. It doesn't. It must affect us differently emotionally over time. I wonder if that's valuable or not. Is this making any sense?

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Yeah, no, absolutely. I mean, I think. I mean, I think what happens is a couple things. One, we get out of practice. Right. I mean, you get out of practice interacting with people and it becomes really easy to forget how what you're saying is impacting them in a very real and meaningful way and how you may have hurt their feelings or whatever.

[Theo Von]

Yeah, yeah. What about some other options for like, the healthy processing of anger?

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Well, so, yeah, that's one of the things we didn't get to is you can think about, like, what we've been talking about is how you handle your anger once you're feeling it. What we haven't talked about yet is how you can kind of create a life where you are more. Where you're managing it better in advance. Right. Meaning.

[Theo Von]

Yeah, that's what I need.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Yeah. So if you think about that model I described before, right. You've got your trigger, you've got your mood at the time of the trigger, and you've got your interpretation. Well, you can intervene in any of those places. Right. So you can. Like, we don't have control of every trigger we experience, but there are some we invite into our lives. Right. Either on purpose or on accident.

[Theo Von]

Tiffany or whoever you're thinking about or anybody specific it could be.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Sure. I mean, even things like. The example I always use is like, so I used to love scary movies when I was growing up, I loved them. At a certain point I realized, you know what, these are having a pretty negative effect on me. Right. I'm staying up too late afterwards, I'm getting scared, whatever. So I started watching them less often. Right. That's. We can do that with provocations. We can say, I'm not going to watch the news as often as I used to. I'm not going to watch sports as often as I used to because it's getting to me in ways that aren't good for me.

[Theo Von]

Yeah.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

We can even say, you know, I'm going to change my commute up so that I don't find myself in traffic as often as I once did. I don't know if that's possible in Nashville.

[Theo Von]

Right. But even if it's longer, it's like I'm still going to change it up. So I'm just not. Because the traffic. Yep, that's a good point. Because sometimes, though, we will recognize the things that agitate us and still continue to do them.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Yep.

[Theo Von]

What is that called?

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Yeah, I don't know if that has a name, actually, but you know what I'm talking about. Yeah. No, I mean, when people continue to sort of walk into those situations that leave them feeling frustrated.

[Theo Von]

Yeah. It's like you want the agitation, like, you know it's going to bother you. So then you know you're going to be able to be angry. Your anger almost becomes an addiction in a way.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

And the worst thing that can happen there sometimes is sometimes we so anticipate that a situation is gonna go poorly, that we actually bring it out of that situation. Like, we approach, you know, we're going to Thanksgiving dinner, and we know our uncle is gonna be racist or whatever. And so we go there and we end up sort of, first of all, we're hostile to them in advance in a way that it actually brings out their hostility back to us. And then also, we sort of unintentionally, like, goat them into things.

[Theo Von]

Yeah.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

And we bring them.

[Theo Von]

We'll even pass the black beans to them and then lose it on them for no reason or something, you know?

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Right.

[Theo Von]

Like, and they didn't do any. It's just like we're just waiting in our head, you know? Or we'll ask for the brown rice, and they'll look at us a certain way, and they just. They can't handle. Yeah. It's like. And then it's almost like. Yeah, it's like a lot of times you set things up, you know how they're going to be. God, that's such an instance, man. What do you do in that instance? Because that's a huge one, I think.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Yeah. Well, I think it's about what I like to call, like, proactive emotion management. Right. So it's saying, okay, I'm anticipating that this situation is going to go badly. What are some things that I can do now to prevent it from going the way I think it could go? And so that might be, hey, let's give people the benefit of the doubt. Right. That might be going into the situation and saying, let's not assume that they're going to do and say the worst thing. Let's go into that situation. Maybe I minimize my contact with them. Yeah, it's Thanksgiving. But I don't have to be in the same room with this person the entire entire night. And I can. I can minimize how often I talk to them. Maybe it's you and your partner who you're at the event with, you have like a. Like a safe word, right. When you're getting frustrated, that some. Some signal that you can do to send them a message saying, like, hey, get me out of this. Right. I mean, there's. There's all these things we can do. It's just we have to be thoughtful about it in advance. And I think a lot of times we're not thoughtful about it.

[Theo Von]

Yeah, yeah. I'll struggle. I know sometimes, like if I know, like. Like sometimes I can cut myself off. And I'd be like, hey, go introduce yourself in the beginning instead of keeping an air where it's like you have something in your head.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Yep.

[Theo Von]

Because I'm an. I'm in recovery, and so I'll have a lot of things, like I'll build a world in my head that's not really going on in the world around me.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Yep.

[Theo Von]

And so. So sometimes some of those things I can cut off, like, hey, go. And go say, hey, how's things going? That way, you've already created the first space of communication. It's been cool, everything's good. Then if they do say, say something sometimes that if you're expecting somebody to say a certain thing, it doesn't really land on you the same way. A lot of times for me it is. I'll keep myself away from people if I know I'm agitated. So some. So that's one of the things I think you said of just being able to prepare a little bit. But then it's like sometimes it's like that isolation builds on my own agitation because I'm always just kind of in my own world. Process and stuff.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Yeah, yeah. No, that's really interesting that, like, you know, we often do sort of create this world that may or may not be realistic. And we assume, you know, people are going to be a certain way, they're going to do a certain thing, or they're thinking. Like, we do a lot of mind reading, you know, and we assume people think the way we think they think. And then.

[Theo Von]

Yeah, it's crazy, isn't it?

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Yeah. And what you just said about going up and introducing yourself or saying hi or whatever, that's a. That's really interesting because what it does is it gives you the opportunity to realize that what you're thinking is inaccurate.

[Theo Von]

Yeah. It's funny you say that, because one thing we have learned a lot in recovery is just not believing our brain, that our perception of things is off.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

I mean, that's really important. And it's like, you want to trust yourself, but you also have to leave some room to say, you know what? Hey, my understanding of the situation could be wrong. And when I meet people, I've got to let them. I mean, yeah, I can go in and I can be cautious. Right. That's one thing, but I shouldn't assume that my understanding of them is a thousand percent accurate.

[Theo Von]

Yeah. Yeah. And the more I isolate and stuff, the more that bad perception builds that's what's fascinating to me. It's like it grows its own muscles.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Yeah. And that is, I think if there's a thing that I find sort of most dangerous or worrisome about modern day America or the world is the degree to which we are isolating ourselves, especially from people that we might disagree with, and the degree to which we're not having, like, real conversations with people that. Where we can get an opportunity to learn how they think. Right. We make assumptions about what other people are doing and saying, and then we react to those assumptions more than we react to what's actually happening.

[Theo Von]

Yeah. It is interesting how much we've become kind of puppetable by like, I don't know if I just want to say mainstream media, but by bigger stories maybe that we didn't write ourselves kind of.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Yeah.

[Theo Von]

You know.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Well, and, you know, when you. When you think about what, like the social media algorithms do and how we end up seeing the content that we agree with more regularly, we interact with people who think like us more regularly. Right. We just are seeing. We're connected. I put that sort of in quotes, but connected to more people than ever before, but not really because, one, we're only seeing a very specific sliver of their lives. And we're not having this. We're not necessarily engaging with people who are different from us very regularly.

[Theo Von]

I mean, do you guys notice that we're any angrier now than we were in the past?

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Yeah. Yeah. This is. I wish we could go back in time and like, have some sort of anger thermometer. Right. That could measure anger over time. Because this is the question that I think everybody wants to know the answer to is, are we angrier now than we used to be? And in so many ways it sure seems like we are. Right. Because we see tons of examples of it. We see so much rage. I think the parts that we don't have answers to is one, is. Is a lot of that rage just more visible now than it used to be? Right. Are we seeing it more now because of social media? So we get more stuff captured on video than we ever did and that might be what's happening. That those things were happening before. We just didn't know. It could also be that particular expression styles have become normalized. Right. So yelling, screaming, those things are becoming like hostility. Those things are becoming more common. Yeah. And so maybe that anger was there, but those outward expressions are much more common now. I think there is some reason to think we're angrier now than we used to be. I mean. I mean, I think, like, we're social. The stuff we just were saying about social media is definitely bringing out with the illusion.

[Theo Von]

I think there used to be more of, I think, like, tradition we had. It felt like there was more of a sense of togetherness, maybe. I wonder if those things left people feeling more complete or safer in their country. And I do start to notice that there starts to feel a little bit of, like, what could happen in 15 years? As opposed to. That was never a thought when I was a kid. It was always like, I feel like we're going to be okay here. Right. So I wonder if some of that, like, just subconsciously starts to boil inside of you.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Oh, I absolutely think so. I mean, I think, you know, one of the things we're dealing with, and I think a lot of this is post pandemic, but not just post pandemic is, you know, so anger dovetails pretty closely with anxiety. Right. That these two emotions are pretty similar. They actually feel pretty similar physiologically. So there's a lot of overlap there. And I think it's fair to say that Americans are, and probably worldwide people are more anxious now about the future than they have been for a very long time. Right, okay.

[Theo Von]

Yeah.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

And that anxiety, it comes from a place of uncertainty about, you know, safety and financial security and all these things.

[Theo Von]

Even having jobs. I mean, as they say, like, AI is going to. Every day you hear, AI is going to take your job. You know, and the guy's like, I'm unemployed. And they're like, it'll take that job. You're like, jesus, I can't even be unemployed anymore. But I think there is a little bit of fear. Even somebody who's just sitting on their couch watching, you know, eating Fritos and is watching, you know, TV shows all day, that they're even. That job's gonna be. They're gonna be like, well, I'm gonna lose this.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Right? Yeah. I mean, I think that there is this. All of this uncertainty is leading to people. Because I think in some ways, part of what happens is it leads to some competitiveness. It leads to like, hey, look, the pie is getting smaller that we all share. And I'm worried that I'm not gonna have enough. Right. And I'm not gonna be able to make ends meet. And all of that leads to, you know, frustration with your fellow humans. Right?

[Theo Von]

Yeah. Cause your perspective is, suddenly, I've gotta take care of myself instead of, like, we have to take care of each other.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Exactly.

[Theo Von]

And that gets a little creepy.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Exactly.

[Theo Von]

What do we do with pervasive anger at society and ideology? Situation out of control?

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

I think that's another thing that happened during the pandemic is that I think people. I think a lot of people in the United States and probably globally really started to feel like they couldn't trust each other. And I think that happened in lots of ways. Right. It was sort of a sense of, hey, people aren't going to. They're more interested in themselves than they are in taking care of each other. Right. They won't, you know, do X, Y, or Z. They won't wear masks. They won't open things up. They're not worried about my finances. They're not, you know, they're only worried about their own thing. And I think that that scared people and led to a lot of animosity.

[Theo Von]

Amongst people when I think also people didn't know if their government cared anymore, which was even like a. Which was probably similar.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Yeah.

[Theo Von]

In the sense that we're like, can I trust my government? Can I trust, like, you know, you see stories like the opioid epidemic, and you're like, the fact that the family didn't even go to jail or face any time, and the amount of, you know, the amount of pain that. That caused so many families, not to mention deaths. But I think, you know, things like that, it makes you start to question. So if you don't even think, you know, if you can. I mean, you can always kind of question your government. I think that that's safe. And question society and what's going on. It's good to think curiously, but I feel like that was probably another thing that happened, is people were like, I don't know. We. Every commercial is about drugs. Like, it's just like, who can I. Where can I get valid information? And who can I trust? And it probably became scary. You. Like, I have to start with myself.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Yep. And I think that sort of uncertainty leads to feelings of frustration, leads to. And, you know, I think part of what happened, too, is that for some people, they felt like, well, the answers here are obvious. And so why don't other people see how obvious these answers are? And I don't know that the answers were necessarily obvious, but I think that people felt like, why can't people just do whatever and then we can get through this? And when other people.

[Theo Von]

You mean during COVID You mean.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Yeah, during COVID And then. And yeah, yeah, I think people.

[Theo Von]

And people had just also. Just real different views of it. It was like, in California, things were very locked down and then here things were more open.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Yep.

[Theo Von]

You know, and it was like, what's the best way to do this?

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

It was hard to learn, even. I mean, you know, I live in Green Bay and we've got, you know, there's the Green Bay public schools and there's other public school districts that are, like, connected, but. And they're all doing different things. And so there's a sense of. Of, well, here we're doing this five miles away. They're doing something different. Why? What's going on? And so then there's an anger and frustration amongst the people who live in those communities. And then people saying, well, I'm gonna take my kids and send them to that school. Cause they're doing this or I'm gonna, you know. And so all of these things started to bubble up and lead to frustration.

[Theo Von]

Yeah, a lot of frustration.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Yeah.

[Theo Von]

And really, I know how to do it. People wanted to. Yeah. The second you don't trust or believe that your society that's built kind of has a. Is looking out for you, or you can trust it, then it really. You gotta go back to yourself.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Well, and then, I mean, imagine if we're not talking about society, we're just talking about a family. Right. And what. And you as like a kid in a family, realize, wow, the other people in this family aren't necessarily gonna do the things that are best for me. It becomes real hard to continue to feel good about that. And over time. Right. People have to earn that trust back. And I think we're right now in a phase where people haven't. Where people don't feel like anyone's earning that trust back. They're just like, we still don't trust each other. They don't have my best interests in mind. They don't care about the same things as me. What am I going to do? How are we going to get through this? And I don't think anybody's got any answers to that.

[Theo Von]

Yeah. Yeah. I wonder if it's one of those things that just takes time or. I mean, that's always the thing.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Yeah, I think you're right. I mean, I think time is going to be part of it. I hope that. I hope that there are things we can rally around.

[Theo Von]

Humor is usually a good one.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Yeah, absolutely.

[Theo Von]

I know they're trying to put out, like.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

I mean, you would say that you're a comedian.

[Theo Von]

That's probably true. I would hope to say it.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Huh.

[Theo Von]

They just put out. They just had a new show, Tires on Netflix, which is really crazy.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

I'VE seen an ad for it. I haven't watched it yet.

[Theo Von]

It's, like, different than a lot of stuff they put on there. It's just like. It seems like it's from, like, totally, like, the 80s or something. You know, it's just kind of like, just humor without, like, judging that every person in the. In the show has to have certain. Like. Like, you're just letting people be. They could be characters. Like, you could have a character. You're like, oh, that guy's hilarious, but I don't agree with him.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Okay.

[Theo Von]

Whereas to be like, oh, that guy. I'm not even to see if he is hilarious because I don't agree with the character.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Right.

[Theo Von]

And it's like, dude, it's okay. You know? So, like, just things being more possible or just open their brains to, like, okay, a character could believe differently than I do.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Right. Yep.

[Theo Von]

Right. Because I think for a while it's been like, I don't even want my characters.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Right.

[Theo Von]

To have any different views, and I do. That's kind of crazy.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Yeah.

[Theo Von]

When you think about that.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Yeah.

[Theo Von]

I mean, like, I'm drowning, but I only want a superhero to show up if he feels exactly the same way I do.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Yeah. When it's tough. I mean, like, you know, I think one of the tricky things we've had to deal with is that there are. I mean, there are opinions that people can, like, sort of rally around. There are opinions that people can, like, disagree with and in an understandable, reasonable way. Right. Reasonable disagreements. But then so often those disagreements are about, like, real scary stuff. It's not me disagreeing about, like, hey, is Cats a good movie? I don't know why I picked Cats. I think it's because my son loved the movie Cats.

[Theo Von]

Oh, he did? I haven't seen it. I don't think.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Okay. I'm not gonna recommend it.

[Theo Von]

Okay.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Yeah. That's my advice to you. If you walk away with one thing from this episode, is that you probably shouldn't see Cats fair. Yeah. I mean, so it's one thing to disagree about that. Right. Totally different if we're talking about things that really do have a. Like, have real consequences for people.

[Theo Von]

Oh, for sure.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

You know, like, there are some opinions that we can just agree to disagree. And then there's other stuff that is, like, no, this is, like. This is real personal.

[Theo Von]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. We didn't used to. People didn't used to care about it that much, though. Yeah, they did. I think it is interesting how much, like, people used to never talk about politics that much you would kind of say maybe who you were going to vote for. And kind of sometimes you give a couple lines about it. But you never, I feel like would be like, oh, screw you for voting for that. Like it would never. Even the thought would never come into your head.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

I feel like, yeah, it does feel like it's taken center stage. And I wonder how much of that is. I mean, it's probably a lot of it is exacerbated by social media. I suspect the 24 hour news cycle also led to that too. Right.

[Theo Von]

It ruined a lot of stuff that created a lot of anger.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Yeah, yep.

[Theo Von]

Because we used to be able to take a day off, half the day off.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Yep.

[Theo Von]

But now they're like, oh, you need a little more anger.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Yeah, well, intentionally so. I mean, it's like, so there's plenty of research out there that says that, you know, content, news or anything else that makes people angry or scared is far more likely to go viral than other stuff. Right. And so politicians know that. And just purely from a financial perspective, if you put an ad out that makes people mad, it's going to get more clicks. It's going to get, I mean, you double the value essentially of that ad by making people mad with it. Right. So there are people who are benefiting financially from our rage. And that's not just true of politicians. That's true with Fox News, cnn, et cetera. They want to make people mad. Yeah, yeah.

[Theo Von]

Instead of just having an article though, they'll reframe the title. So it has an enemy.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Yeah, yep.

[Theo Von]

That's pretty crazy. Dealing with anxiety and stress in the age of the 24. 7 news cycle.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Interesting.

[Theo Von]

Let me see. Whether it's the coronavirus, political divisiveness, threats of terrorism or mass shootings, you might not be immediately affected by these issues, but constant exposure to 24 hour news and social media, which is often heavily skewed towards the negative, can adversely influence your mental health and overall. Well being. More than 70% of Americans believe the media blows things out of proportion, which may seem harmless, but it could lead to increased stress and anxiety. Wow. So. But the tough part is if we're addicted to it though, right?

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Yep.

[Theo Von]

That's the tough part, is that we're. If we're addicted to it.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Yeah. I mean, that's because, I mean, you know, people are drawn to this thing that ultimately causes them harm.

[Theo Von]

Right.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

You know, what is that?

[Theo Von]

Has that always been, I mean, has it just been since the apple in the Garden of Eden?

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

You know, I Mean, information is. I mean, people crave information, right? I mean, that's another emotion that I like to talk about sometimes is curiosity. Right? And people, people do crave information. It makes them feel good about themselves, especially if they can share it with other people. It's like a form of social currency. And so. And so knowing things is better than not knowing things. And so people are drawn to media, and then when that media makes them mad, they're more likely actually to share it with other people. They're more likely because it gets the reaction they want. Right. So if I came in here and told you just some sort of arbitrary fact, you'd be like, that's great. But if I came in here and told you something that made you really mad, now I'm getting a reaction, be.

[Theo Von]

Like, what the heck? Yeah, what are we going to do about it?

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Exactly.

[Theo Von]

It's pretty crazy.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

And then we problem solve.

[Theo Von]

So we've really just. We've kind of like death hacked ourselves in a way. Like there's life hacks, and then I feel like there's death hacks. And I feel like sometimes the algorithm does that, you know, or the possibility to always have it at your fingertips. Because I'll find if I'd rather just chill or meditate or if I'd rather go find something to make me angry, I sometimes would like to find something to make me angry.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Yeah, yeah, I get that. Yeah. Because I mean, it does. I think for some people that anger feels powerful. Right. I mean, it's like there's a sense, I mean, we talked earlier about it sometimes feeling helpless. But there's a piece of like the heart rate increase the blood pressure increase the muscle tension that leads to these feelings of excitement.

[Theo Von]

Yeah, yeah. Well, it feels like it activates you.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Yep, exactly.

[Theo Von]

Is there a such thing as like a healthy anger? And then what is the difference between like a healthy anger and a rage?

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Yeah.

[Theo Von]

Is that noticeable?

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Yeah. So what I would say is that when it comes to anger, I tend to think of all emotions as not having. They aren't positive or negative on their own. They're just information systems. Right. And it's good to feel things. In fact, if I had a wish for people, it would be that they felt the whole sort of range of emotions. Right. That that's what would be good for them, but in a nuanced way. Meaning that they could evaluate whether or not this thing that they're feeling is good for them or bad for them in a particular context. So when I think about healthy versus unhealthy anger. A big piece of it is, what is it doing for me or to me. Right. So am I. What kind of consequences am I experiencing? For some people, those consequences can be physical. Right. They can have, like, heart problems or muscle tension or chronic headaches or things like that. For some people, those consequences are like, relationships. They get in a lot of verbal and physical fights, online fights. For some people, those consequences are property damage. They break stuff.

[Theo Von]

Oh, yeah. Steal stuff.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Yep. So, I mean, sometimes, though, it's like other negative emotions. It's like I get mad, and then afterwards I feel guilty about something I said, and so I feel real sad later, or I get scared that, you know, my partner's gonna leave me or I'm gonna get in trouble. And so they have these other negative emotions. Talk about people like, that's me.

[Theo Von]

I'll get upset and then I will. I'll apologize quickly, usually. But when I get into moments of really being really upset, it's hard for me to manage myself.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Yeah. And then do you end up feeling sort of, like, guilty about it?

[Theo Von]

Yeah, I feel remorseful. I'm usually good at being able to apologize pretty quickly. That's good, being able to notice my space in it. But the fact that it happens at all, you know, is something that has been uncomfortable for me, I think.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Yeah. And I appreciate you saying that.

[Theo Von]

I didn't mean to interrupt you there.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

No, that's all right. Yeah. I think that's, you know, it connects to, like. For a lot of people, their anger leads to things like substance abuse. It leads to overeating. It leads to even, I mean, you know, substance abuse defined broadly, like alcohol, nicotine included. Right. People. People find ways of coping with their anger because they don't have better ways. And so they end up turning to drugs or alcohol.

[Theo Von]

Oh, yeah.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

And, you know, and that's. That, you know, that ends up having consequences and. Yeah.

[Theo Von]

Was there more you want to say sorry?

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

No. I mean, I think that sort of covers it, but I think the big thing is there are lots and lots of consequences to unhealthy anger. Right. There's also lots of good things we can do with it. Right. There's lots of ways that we can. We can turn our anger into those positive ways. And so when. Back to when people think about, okay, what's the impact of this on me and on those people around me, is to really sort of evaluate what the outcome is.

[Theo Von]

Right. So if you can take a moment to evaluate what the outcome is going to be, like, what's going to happen Right now I'm upset. So if I act on it, then I'm gonna have to apologize. Later I'm gonna be probably. Then I'm gonna be bummed out at myself.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Yep.

[Theo Von]

So now, right now I'm upset at somebody else and maybe even at myself. And then later I'm gonna be to apologize somebody and probably then be a little bit disheartened in myself for my actions.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Yeah.

[Theo Von]

So it's like, what do I really want? Or do I just want things to kind of be chill?

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

See, I love what you're saying right now because to me, one of the best lessons people can learn about anger or any emotion is when I'm feeling it. I need to stop for a second and think about what my goals are. What's the thing that. Where do I want this situation to end? And sometimes that is like, you know, if I get mad on my way to work because somebody cut me off right now, I could drive them off the road and get in a fight with them. But does that get me to work on time right in the way I want? Like, my goal is to get to my destination safely, and so I should focus on that. And anything else that I try and do in that moment doesn't serve me. And I mean, I use an exaggerated example, but even giving them the finger or honking at them, all those things just serve to distract me from my actual goal. And we can think about that in a gajillion different other places. Right. If I get. If I scrolling through social media and I see a post that bugs me, yeah, I can fight back, or I can argue or whatever, or I can think about, why am I here? Why am I in this space? What is the point of arguing? Maybe there's a good reason to. And I should. Or maybe there's a good reason for me to just scroll on and not care.

[Theo Von]

Yeah. And I was just thinking when you said that social media definitely kind of, it almost deflates our anger in some ways, because instead of a lot of times, it used to be maybe if enough people got angry about something, they would go protest, they would make a difference. They would boycott, they would not use a product, or they would stand up. But now it almost feels like you can comment into almost a vacuum because of how quick things disappear. And you can just say, well, I comment it, or I say, you know, or I post something. Right. I did something. But then it kind of like just satiates enough the human desire to do something where we don't end up doing things, and then we As a group get kind of further and further into this crevasse.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

I think that is a real problem. I think you're absolutely. I do. I think you're absolutely right that a big part of what happens is there's the social media. I don't want to minimize social media activism because there are forms of it that are really powerful and really meaningful, but there are also forms of it that don't do much. Right. But I think you use the word satiate. Right. They give you a sense of like, I did something and because I did something, I can now rest. Right. I had my impact.

[Theo Von]

Right. I had my human impact. But it's not. Sometimes it's. And it changes so much.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Right.

[Theo Von]

It changes so much. Whereas like every day there's a new option almost.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Yep.

[Theo Von]

So the thing you impacted is just. They've almost just replaced it with something new.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Yep. And there's a new thing to be mad about too. Right. You've got a new. I've got a new. New both outlet but also thing to focus on a new topic.

[Theo Von]

Moved right along. Here's an article that was in the Atlantic. The problem with social media protests before the Internet changes speed at which the world moves. Movements were slower growing. A year of organizing and directly advocating for change led to a 13 month long Montgomery bus boycott that began with Rosa Parks act of resistance. That's what it used to be like. By contrast, mass protests such as Occupy Wall street formed rapidly, but then lacking that underlying resilience created over time, often lost focus, direction, and most important, their potential to affect change.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Interesting. So in some ways it feels like what they're saying is when you put a lot of work into something in advance, then you want to see it through in ways that social media protests don't have. That. It's like, I've been thinking about this for a week, so I don't need to keep thinking about. I mean, I don't have as much sunk into this.

[Theo Von]

No. And if I close the app, I'm not even an activist anymore.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Right, Right. Interesting.

[Theo Von]

It's kind of interesting, huh?

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Yeah.

[Theo Von]

I grew up in a home where there was a lot of anger. Right. It was probably our number one emotion that we had.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Right.

[Theo Von]

You know, it was just farm to table there. It was like you got. It was 100% grass fed.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

All right, all right.

[Theo Von]

You know, and it was. It was just the only way that we communicated. How much of a responsibility is it of parents to like teach kids what their feelings are?

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Right. Yeah. I love this. So real quick, when you say there was a lot of anger. Was it mostly like outward expressed like yelling, screaming?

[Theo Von]

Yeah, mostly yelling, screaming, throwing things. Right. Judgment.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Okay.

[Theo Von]

Those are like the main emotions, you know, and then humor.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Okay.

[Theo Von]

So, but we, otherwise it was just always, you knew somebody was going to be angry.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Where were you in the, in the birth order?

[Theo Von]

I was number two. I have an older brother and two sisters.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Okay, and the sisters are both younger than you?

[Theo Von]

Yep, they're both younger. And everybody's alive still? Pretty much.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Okay. Pretty much, yeah.

[Theo Von]

I mean some people are, you know, got it. They're willing to risk it all, you know, but some of us are doing our best, so. But yeah, so that's where we at. And that it was just. There was a lot of anger in there.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

You know, I think that what my feeling is with kids in particular, I mean, we can think about this from the. Well, I'll start with what I consider to be sort of the golden rule of emotion and parenting, and that is that. But kids tend to express emotions the way their caregivers did. And so they tend to. And it's rooted in like age old psychology. That's called modeling. Right. And so kids tend to model what their parents did, that if mom or dad yell and scream, kids tend to yell and scream as a way of dealing with emotions. And now there's some caveats to that because simultaneously the other side is that, you know, kids sometimes get rewarded or punished for emotional expressions of particular types. Right. So a kid hits somebody and they get punished for it.

[Theo Von]

Yeah.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Now, oddly enough, sometimes they get punished for it by getting hit by the parent. Right. Getting spanked or whatever.

[Theo Von]

Right. That's kind of wild when you think about it like that.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Right. And so. Or they get in trouble for yelling by being yelled at. So there's all sorts of mixed messages there. Damn. But to me, I mean, some of the healthiest things you can do with kids when you're trying to raise emotionally wise children is to talk about feelings. Often to give them the language to have that conversation to help them identify what they're feeling. I think that's a big problem for a lot of people, for a lot of kids and continues is they don't know the difference between anger and sadness. They don't know the difference between fear and anger.

[Theo Von]

Oh yeah. I would just start vibe, you know, every night you see that kid, he's just vibrating. You don't know what's going on. You got to show them a flashcard or something, you know, and say, that's joy. That's Anger. That's. But yeah, because you don't know.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Right. And so helping kids to. I mean, one of the things I like to do with my kids and is. And liked when they were young is to, like, unpack those emotional experiences with them and not just their own, but when they see a kid, you know, melting down or a kid getting angry or sad or scared or whatever to say, so what do you think is going on? Like, what. Where did that come from? Why? You know, if we're watching TV and a kid reacts somewhere just so at.

[Theo Von]

Least that they can have their own head, like, okay, this is what happens when this happens. This is what I look like when it happens. This is where I can start to see in somebody else what's going on. And then you'll recognize it in yourself and at least have some sort of. You'll be the conductor in some way as much as you can. Maybe some of the outcomes, if not some of the origins of the feeling.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Yeah. And then you can even talk through, you know, what are some options for them now. Right. You know, this kid's.

[Theo Von]

Right.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Yeah. You know, just had this. Just. Is feeling really hurt. What can. What can he or she do to deal with those feelings of hurt? And, I mean, I think those are all. Are like, good, healthy ways. But I think it starts with wanting to make sure people are having those conversations that people are really understanding. Because part of what happens, too, is that people can realize that we like to believe. And I've even been saying, look, your feelings are one of the ways your brain tells you what's going on, what you're experiencing. That doesn't necessarily mean that they're rooted in logic or reality or that they're even really valid. Right. We can be angry over a misunderstanding. We can be scared over something that's not really dangerous. And the feelings are real. Right. And we shouldn't minimize that, but we should take some time to, like, unpack them and talk about, like, what's going on. Why are you feeling this way?

[Theo Von]

Yeah. I think that kind of stuff is important at least, because I think for myself a long time, I didn't know a lot of feelings I was even having. I didn't know. I only knew a couple. Like, I remember, like, yeah, like, certain things would go on. I wouldn't really have any feelings about it. And I was like, man, I never really had a lot of feelings. Feelings. So I think sometimes talking with your kids, like, oh, this is a feeling. That's what that is. This is what's going on because otherwise you can just think you're been bonkers as a child. You know, like, if somebody doesn't tell you kind of what's happening with you.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Well, a lot of times kids aren't really allowed to have feelings, right? I mean, that, like, that they're shamed for them, that the message is, hey, hold that in. Don't let people see that. And then, I mean, of course that's going to continue into adulthood where they don't feel like they're allowed. They don't feel like it's safe to express that stuff.

[Theo Von]

I was thinking, if you allow your kids, right. Like, space to feel their feelings. Okay. Does that create in them, like, you know, recognize they're feeling something, allow them a little space to feel it? Right. Yeah. Does that create like more of like an emotional resilience in them which would just. Then, like, then when they're angry again, it would just kind of become another emotion to them, sort of like. Does that make any sense?

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Yeah, I mean, I think what. What you really want.

[Theo Von]

So then in the future they could cope better. So if it happens to them next time, be like, okay.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Yep. Because what you really want is, I mean, you want a situation where your kids can, when they're feeling something, A, know what they're feeling, B, have a sense for where it's coming from, understand its root causes, be able to critically evaluate those root causes and then know what to do with it. Right. And I mean, and that's a level of sophistication that I don't think, frankly, most people are capable of. But it's because we haven't given them the space or the tools to do that over their lifetime. And I think we're way better at this as a society now than we were when you and I were kids. Right. Like, we're way better at trying to provide those tools to kids. But it comes with them. It comes with people being able to have those conversations to say, hey, let's talk about what you're feeling right now. Not in a like, necessarily a judgment or punishy way. Like, hey, you just got real mad. You hit your brother. Let's have a conversation about that. Let's talk about better ways to handle that. Let's make sure we make up for what we did. So it's not like it's consequence for people oftentimes accuse me of being sort of wimpy and like, hey, you're letting your kids walk all over you. They gotta get punished or whatever. It's not that. It's Consequence free. It's like, no, we're gonna deal with those feelings and try and figure out sort of the best way to handle it. And. Yeah, that helps them develop that emotional resilience going forward.

[Theo Von]

Yeah. At least having some emotional understanding of yourself. But how do you then, like, put the cap on it where you're like, it's okay if my kid is, you know, like. Like, how do we not turn into one of these societies where it's just like, oh, I don't feel like going to work today, so I'm not gonna go.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Yeah.

[Theo Von]

You know, like, that's. Nobody ever feels like on or. That's the first thing it should tell you when you ever go to school.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Yeah.

[Theo Von]

One day you're gonna go to work and nobody's gonna feel like it. That should be the first thing that they teach us.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Yeah. No, I mean, it's true. Like. Like, the message also has to be that your emotions alone aren't necessarily reason not to do something.

[Theo Von]

Yeah.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

You know, I mean, that's the. You know, I have two kids. Both of them are very, very awesome in different ways. But the, you know, the one is, he's a performer, he's a dancer, and he's in a lot of musicals and things like that. And one of the things that I can say about him is people. People often talk about how brave he is and he is. But I know him well enough to know that he gets real anxious about performing in those things. He's feeling that fear. It's not that he's not scared. It's that he knows how to do things anyways. And that's where you want people to get. You want people to get to a point of right now. You know what I'm feeling sad. And I don't feel like being able to go. I don't feel like going to work, but I also need to do it. I understand what my responsibilities are, and I can work through that. And I think there's. There's something to be said for. I mean, to me, that's a big part of what emotional resilience is. It's being able to feel things and then overcome those feelings at times.

[Theo Von]

Right. And I think if you give your kids space for that, it feels like you're gonna. That that's a armor you can create in them as well. It's like, hey, you feel sad right now or you feel a little disappointed? This is how you can manage that right now. And look, five minutes later. Wow. Look, we're right back to where we were before every, everything's good. So then when they have those things happen in their own lives when you're not around, they're going to have like some sort of. Even if it's just brief little check ins from a parent are huge.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Well, you can, I mean, that's the thing. I mean, and this isn't just about parenting. This is about being a supervisor. It's about being a human being. You can be sensitive and have expectations.

[Theo Von]

Yeah.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Right. You can, you can be sensitive to your kids emotional needs and have, have things you expect them to do. You can be sensitive to your employees and have expectations of them.

[Theo Von]

Right.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

You know, and, and frankly, you can be sensitive to yourself and you can be sort of patient and caring with yourself and still have expectations for what you want to accomplish.

[Theo Von]

That's a tough one sometimes.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Yeah.

[Theo Von]

Giving yourself some grace.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

I'm terrible at it.

[Theo Von]

Are you?

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Yeah, I am. Yeah. I'm really hard on myself.

[Theo Von]

Yeah, me too, man.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Yeah. God, that probably back. Remember when we were talking about type A at the beginning? Right. That's probably part of it. Right. Is like you're competitive, you're success driven and that means you want to accomplish certain things and that means being a certain way.

[Theo Von]

Yeah. It's interesting because I don't know when I would ever give myself the benefit of the doubt. Very often I almost have to have someone say, hey man, give yourself some grace here, like in like feel some pride, you know, I think. And then sometimes I don't blame this on my being a kid or whatever, but I think I never knew anything. I never knew any. Nobody, Like I never knew what I was feeling or what was going on. So I think even things like that with your kid, like, hey man, you can feel proud of yourself. Like, I know some of it sounds lame probably in some senses, but the cost of not doing it with your kids I think can be kind of immense. Because growing up, not knowing like having my own sense of what's okay for me leaves me at the whim of what other people think is okay for me, you know, and that can just get kind of harrowing. I'm not, you know, trying to like, woe is me. That's not fully my story, but it can. I could see it being really risky for folks, you know.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

You know, for me, one of the things that's been really helpful is to surround myself with really good people who care about me and that there are people who, you know, when I'm being hard on myself, sometimes it's nice to have a friend who can sort of step in and remind me, like, hey, you know, it's okay to not have things happen exactly as you want them. It's okay to take a break and just be proud of what you accomplished today. And it's nice to have people in your life who can support you that way. Yeah.

[Theo Von]

So, yeah, it feels like we always have to be making something better these days, too.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Yeah.

[Theo Von]

Like that never. It'd be like, if you. If you knew somebody and something was wrong with them, people would just be like, dang, something's wrong with him, you know, and then 10 years later, people would be like, dang, how's Ernie? And then people like, something is wrong with him. Like, it had escalated, you know, like he bought an empty swimming pool and he was spending time in there. And so. But now it's like, is that a real story?

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Is there a real person, you know, who bought an empty square?

[Theo Von]

There was some men in our neighborhood that would kind of like, meet up or whatever in, like, this empty swimming pool at night and smoke weed or whatever.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Whenever I hear you drop an example like that, part of me was like, did that just come from his brain or is that like a real thing?

[Theo Von]

Oh, no, that was a real thing, dude. We grew up in a very shirtless area, if you will. It was very. A lot of people. Just a lot of people whistling and no shirts. Just a lot of just.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

I like that.

[Theo Von]

They're doing their best.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

That was a good description. I like that. Yeah, I can imagine what this area was like.

[Theo Von]

We grew up in the stray animal belt, brother. So there was just a lot of.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Yeah, a lot of shirtless people and.

[Theo Von]

Shirtless people and no collars on these animals either. You know what I'm saying? Everybody was just risking it all. This episode is brought to you by Netflix. From the co director of Shrek and the visionary behind Toy Story comes Spellbound, a magical new animated adventure adventure. Starring Rachel Zegler, John Lithgow, Jennifer Lewis, Nathan Lane and Titus Burgess. With Javier Bardem and Nicole Kidman. When a powerful spell turns her parents into monsters, Princess Elian must journey into the wild to reverse the curse before it's too late. Watch Spellbound only on Netflix November 22nd. Can we still have childhood anger as adults? What happens to anger from our childhood that that isn't processed? Or what happens to unprocessed anger?

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Yeah, you know, I think two things can be true here, right? I think on the one hand, yeah, we can absolutely still have, you know, anger and resentment and stuff that happened when we were a Kid that we continue to be mad about forever. I also think that it's sort of never too late to process some of that stuff. Right. I mean, you know, in that there's no reason why in your 40s or 50s you can't start to deal with some of the stuff that you're. You were mad about still from childhood. It might be harder. And I also think we have to be honest about what the. What the outcome is going to be. Right. I mean, I mean we have to recognize that some of those things, I guess think about what dealing with it looks like, because I can't.

[Theo Von]

It's a good point. You brought it up earlier with the other topic is like follow think it. What outcome you want to have. What was the other one?

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Yeah, no, it's like what are your goals here? And I think the thing is when you're. I'm 48 years old, right. When you're 48, you might not be able to make to fix the bad stuff that happen that you're still frustrated by. So that can't be the goal. But maybe it is to forgive. Maybe it's to better understand where if it is a person who wronged you, where that person was coming from. I mean, those are all things that we can try and process, ways we can try and deal with. Maybe it's just to forgive ourselves for not handling it in a different way.

[Theo Von]

Man. Forgive ourselves for not being able to forgive people. Even that sounds crazy.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Right? Right.

[Theo Von]

Because that sometimes it's like that's crazy. I never thought about that. Sometimes it's not even that I'm upset anymore as much that I can't forgive the person. It's like I start to get upset at myself because I can't forgive the person. So I'm not upset at the person anymore. I'm just upset at me because I'm having trouble forgiven. Is that crazy?

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Yeah. No, I mean, not crazy. That's really interesting and insightful. Right. I'm still mad at this person. I feel like I shouldn't be. And I'm struggling.

[Theo Von]

Not mad at me because I can't forgive them. Yeah. I mean, yeah, sometimes that. Yeah, I would just notice it can hop from one thing like that and I don't even know exactly what I'm mad about. You know, that's what.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

You know, I was thinking about it earlier, like. So I was once a really bad student.

[Theo Von]

Really?

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Yeah, I know that's surprising to people. Yeah, I really, really struggled in high school and I actually failed out of my first university and my God, I know it was. And a lot of it came. I mean, it came from a lot of different places. Like, one of them was. So I was a die hard soccer player and soccer fan at the time, and I had a hard time, like, not being more interested in that than in school.

[Theo Von]

Okay, but you just loved soccer so much.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Yep. And same thing. I drank too much My first year in college, too. That was relevant. Not in high school at all, but in college. That was a problem. But also, I just hadn't developed a lot of, like, the study skills necessary to be successful. And so I still, like, years later, I still find myself sort of struggling with that. Like, mad at myself for not having done better, mad at myself for not having made more of my college experience. Because what happened is I took a. I. I took a break, like, six months off. I traveled a little bit. I was very, very fortunate that, like, I had a safety net, you know, it didn't mean I was, like, homeless. I could.

[Theo Von]

Right, you could afford to go somewhere and travel.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Yep. And I. And I had. I could live with my mom for a little while while I sort of figured things out in ways that a lot of my students can't, you know? And so having that, I went back to college and I kind of got it together right after taking a little break. Break. But. But I'm mad at myself still for not having a different kind of college experience, you know?

[Theo Von]

Wow. Yeah, man. That's funny. I'll get upset at myself with, like, yeah. That I didn't have a blast in college. Sometimes. Like, that's just this general term that's in my head, man. I'm upset that I didn't have a blast in college.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Yeah.

[Theo Von]

But if I went and looked through a calendar and people be like, dude, you had a great time.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Right.

[Theo Von]

It's like sometimes I don't even remember things correctly. It's like my perspective of them isn't even clean. And then. Or clear. And then I'll get upset at a. Unreal. And then I'll be like, man, I got a. Or I'll be like, dang, man, I got to enroll somewhere.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Yep. Yep.

[Theo Von]

You know, I could still be a mascot. I can't play, but I could still be a mascot. You know, you just start going. And then it's like I'm in this weird anger against myself. And it's. Maybe the perspective wasn't clear, you know, or.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Well, yeah, Well, a lot of times our emotions, our memories of emotional experiences aren't accurate.

[Theo Von]

Dude, why?

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

And so part of it is that we hit the highlights or the lowlights. And so if you think about. Actually somebody did a study on this where they had people monitor their emotions over the course of a week long vacation. And then when they came back, they took a survey. Did you enjoy the vacation? And what they found is that there was very little correlation between those two things. Because when people are at the end of a trip when they're saying, how did you feel? They're reflecting on the high points or the low points. Right. And they're just thinking and like the overall experience was super rad. I was in Jamaica. It was great. I loved it. What they forget is, you know, how long it took to get their luggage. What they forget, like getting stuck in traffic for hours and hours and hours or whatever, all that stuff.

[Theo Von]

And so violence or whatever.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Yep. And so they forget all that stuff and they just focus on those other things or. And I think the same thing can be true of college. Right. It's like you think about sort of the high points or the low points. You don't think about the, like, you know, the other sort of elements, the things that happen, the day in and day out stuff.

[Theo Von]

Yeah.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

And. Or sort of we think about like an overall theme of what it was like instead of, you know, those day in and day out experiences.

[Theo Von]

Yeah. I think it's called chunking or something. I'm not sure how our. Why our brain, our memory does that. I've been reading this book by this guy, Dr. Sangorath, but it's about our memories and stuff. It's really. It's pretty interesting.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Yeah.

[Theo Von]

Dude. Sometimes when it comes to my anger and stuff, I will even like. I think I remember being so angry as a kid. I almost like, I enjoy my anger in a way because it's like I had such a relationship with it. I don't know if that sounds crazy or not.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

No, it doesn't. I mean, I think I don't enjoy.

[Theo Von]

It as in I want to like act it out or something or vandalize a shelter or whatever. But like that I want to like, if I. There's a part of me still that when I get angry, it connects to that kid part of me that was angry. And it's like, this is. It's ours, you know?

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Well, I think all of us, like, you know, we've been talking about anger as an emotion and it is. But it's also sometimes a personality trait, right?

[Theo Von]

Oh, really?

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Yeah, I mean, it's a characteristic. There are some people who are just angrier than others. Or some people express their anger more outwardly or experience more consequences. And because of that, I think with any personality trait, sometimes as human beings, we cling to things that we sort of, like, as defining characteristics. Right. And so. And we cling to those as things that, like, make us proud of ourselves or that we enjoy or whatever. So maybe a person says, well, hey, like, I'm kind. That's. That's. That's just who I am. And I lean into that. Maybe someone leans into the idea that they're an angry person and that it's, you know, that's kind of how they identify. I think that's true, especially because. So. And this. I'm not advocating for this, but anger is how a lot of successful people get things done. Right. Did you ever watch the show Entourage?

[Theo Von]

Yeah.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Okay, so Ari Gold, that character, you know, that's rooted in a real life person, and he who I think had, like, used those kinds of tactics. Yeah, tactics. And used angry, aggressive approach to manipulate people and to get people to do what he wanted. Right. And so, like, that's someone who I think, probably, like, appreciates that he identifies as an angry person. Right.

[Theo Von]

You know, he appreciates that he identifies that way.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Yeah. I mean, I think it's like, this is just part of who I am, and it's part of what makes me successful.

[Theo Von]

Oh, I see. But then is that just a cop out of somebody that doesn't want to deal with their anger, though?

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Probably. I mean, I think for a lot of people, that's them. I think they're scared to change. It's like, I mean, if this is the thing that I've identified as making me successful, well, then dealing with it might mean that I'm no longer going to be successful, be good at what I do.

[Theo Von]

But if it's a trait, then so it can be a real thing that some people are just. Are.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Yeah, I mean, I think, like, any.

[Theo Von]

Trait, like, without any provocate. Like, without any.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Yeah, I think there's still provocations. I just think that they're quick. It doesn't take as much. Right. And so it doesn't take as much of a provocation to make someone mad.

[Theo Von]

Okay.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

And it's still. I mean, it still comes from a combination of upbringing, probably some genetics, you know, that people are more likely to be angry much of the time, you know, and so it still comes from that place.

[Theo Von]

What are parenting strategies to assist kids with coping with anger? Yeah, like, not feeling anger very often or. Yeah. Like, what are some of those do you feel?

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Yeah, I mean, I think for what I would say is when it comes to kids, one of the, probably the most important things to do is help them develop the tools that allow them to sort of find ways to decrease their anger in the moment. Right. And that's oftentimes for kids going to be deep breathing, it's going to be distraction is actually a really good one. So find something else you can do for a little while. Maybe it's. We talked about drawing earlier. Maybe it's playing with Legos, maybe it's petting your dog, whatever, things like that that allow you to sort of de. Escalate.

[Theo Von]

Yeah.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

The other side of it is helping kids identify where they have some control. And this is harder with kids because I think they have a little less control in their day to day life. Where can kids have control? In their surroundings, in their environment. How can they sort of do less of the things that. That might provoke anger. Right. My son is a, My other son is a die hard basketball fan and he's a player and fan and so we've been watching the NBA quite a bit. I'm from Minnesota originally, so.

[Theo Von]

Okay, so you guys are in, huh?

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Yeah. So we're Timberwolves fans but you know, and he handles, you know, they won last night. That was great. But they've been, you know, they're down a couple games. Yeah. And he handles it well. But you know, it takes a toll on him. Like he gets sacked, he's 12 years old. He gets sad when they, when they lose. And so that's the kind of thing that like over time, you know, you want to think about what kind of impact that's having. You want to think about how much it's influencing you. You want to think about whether or not you as a parent, you mean.

[Theo Von]

Yeah, like a kid doing something. If it's something that. Like what they're engaged, what they're absorbing. You mean?

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Yeah, I mean as a parent you want them to be thinking about how much time they're spending and this thing that ends up having. Taking an emotional toll on them. Yeah.

[Theo Von]

Is it good to let your children feel anger? Is it?

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Yeah, I think so. I mean, I think like anything, I mean up to a point, you know, I think it's good to let them because that's how they're going to deal with the. I mean, I think the art of dealing with emotions is. I liken it to exercise. I saw a poster yours working out the other day. Right. You were on a run or something like that.

[Theo Von]

Oh, yeah, Yeah, I like to run.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Yeah, me too. Every day.

[Theo Von]

You do?

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

I do, yeah. Oh, wow. I think it's great. Great for my mental health, Great for everything. But the thing about. I think it's similar. Dealing with emotions is similar to exercise in that, you know, when you exercise, you push yourself to a place of discomfort, but never so uncomfortable that it's actually harmful. Right. And I think you can do the same thing with emotions. You can push yourself into a zone where this emotion is uncomfortable with me for me, but it's not so uncomfortable that I'm suffering. Right. And so it's like I want to feel some fear because I want to get used to dealing with that discomfort and I want to sort of learn to cope with it, but I don't want to feel so much fear that I'm like on the floor shaking or anything like that. And with kids, I want them to feel. I want them to feel some anxiety and learn that they can just do the thing anyways. I want them to feel some fear, some anger, and learn that they can do the thing anyway ways and work through it. That's a good, healthy way to be.

[Theo Von]

Yeah. It's just interesting when you think about like, that it's a parent's responsibility to do all of that, like how many little things that they learn because of how the parents let them absorb it or.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

And that's. I think one of the challenges is I imagine that, you know, you know, our parents, Our parents age, didn't. It wasn't on the radar to be thinking about stuff like this.

[Theo Von]

No.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

You know, that they just didn't know. And so they weren't necessarily attuned to, like, what kids might need or benefit from an emotional perspective.

[Theo Von]

Yeah. It was a different time. Another thing that really I'll get angry is if I expect people to. It's kind of unrealistic expectations, but it's thinking people should know what I want, even if I haven't explained it.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Yeah. It's. There's a name for this and it's escaping me right now, but there is that sort of like. It's like the opposite of mind reading. It's like they should be able to read your mind. Right. And know. Exactly. Yeah. And so it's like, hey, why don't they know exactly the way I want this thing done? And then why aren't they doing it that way? Yeah. And for people who are ambitious and people who are success driven, then that becomes a. A sticking point. It's part of that type a thing that I mentioned before. Right. It becomes a sticking point, leads to that frustration. Why isn't it happening the way I want it to?

[Theo Von]

What other personality types and what types of angers do they have? Do they have all of specific angers or. Not really. You just find that type A has more.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Yeah, I mean, type A is. I mean, originally part of how it was sort of identified was that it was that people with type A, with that. That behavior pattern they called it at the time, they were. That they were angrier, more aggressive.

[Theo Von]

Because one of the things you mentioned was goals being blocked. And I guess if you have. If you're driven like that, or have that extra, like, drive, which can be a blessing and a curse sometimes, then you would have more goals just even generally floating around in your head.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Yeah. Another strategy, not that. Not like the disorder obsessive compulsive disorder, but sort of an obsessive compulsive personality type is also associated with anger for similar reasons. It's like, I want things the way I want them, and because I want them this way, when other people don't live up to that expectation, it makes me mad.

[Theo Von]

Right.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

You know, I want my home a certain way. And if people don't set it up that way, if they don't. If they won't do the things I want, I get angry or. Yeah. And so it's like, you know, people who are really kind of rule driven or have want things in a specific way are just more likely to get angry. That's why if we think about some of those, what we call the big five personality traits, one of them, people who are a little bit more open, a little bit more flexible are less likely to experience anger.

[Theo Von]

Gosh.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Yeah.

[Theo Von]

Gosh, those people are good. Oh, I almost feel like I would drink their blood. Is that crazy to say that? Because I'll just. I wish I could have some more of that.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Yeah, No, I get it. I mean, it's. Yeah. I mean, that's the thing we know is that I think there's a real drive right now in sort of modern, sort of pop psychology to be really accepting of all personality traits. And I think. I mean, I get why we should be accepting and be supportive, but I think we should also acknowledge that there are some ways of being. That might end up being a little healthier than other ways. Right. And openness is a great quality. Right. And conscientiousness is a great quality. Those things, agreeableness. Right. Those things are the kinds of things that help people be successful in a lot of Ways and help them be likable and help them be happy.

[Theo Von]

Yeah. What about in relationships? You guys talk a lot about that. Like, how do you deal with. If you have a spouse that you feel like has some anger issues?

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Yeah. That is really tough. Especially because anger issues in families can look lots of different ways. Right. Because there's. There's the kind that is really scary and potentially bordering on abuse, where the anger is driven at the particular person. Right. It's the angry husband yelling at the angry wife or vice versa. And that's one way it can look. The other way is just a person who's just angry at the world doesn't necessarily take it out on the family. And that's actually the way my dad was. He was an angry guy. He didn't. I can count on one hand the number of times he yelled at me. I wasn't the victim. It was usually the waiter or the gas station attendant or some other driver, you know, and so those. But that still has consequences. Right. It still scared me as a kid. Right. I mean, yeah, it would have scared me if he were yelling at me, but it also scared me when he's yelling at a stranger.

[Theo Von]

Right.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

And those moments can really sort of take a toll. I mean, I think relationships are obviously tricky. I think a lot of times with relationships, it's gotta be about communication. It's gotta be about a person being willing to do the work, to try and change.

[Theo Von]

Yeah. And what kind of help do people need that have severe anger problems?

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

That's the thing, I think, you know, there are lots of things that people can do on their own without a professional. But ultimately, when the situation is bad enough, people need to talk to a therapist. Right.

[Theo Von]

And how do they recognize when it's bad enough, do you think? Sorry, I keep stacking questions on you.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

No, that's all right. Those are great questions. I mean. I mean, I think usually it should be driven by the consequences. And to me, for me, if a partner came to me and said, hey, your anger is making me uncomfortable. Your anger scaring me, or it's making. Like, to me, that's enough for me to want to say, okay, I gotta do something about it. And if I can't on my own, well, then I'm gonna go get some help. Get some help somehow.

[Theo Von]

Yeah.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

If it's not in a relationship, if it's just, you know, I find myself getting so angry, I'm, like, uncomfortable with it, or I don't like living with myself, or I'm, you know, drinking too much or Whatever. As a way of coping with it. Well, then those are all ways that I can. Those are all signs that I need to meet with someone if I can't fix it on my own.

[Theo Von]

Yeah. Yeah. Because most of my anger usually just comes out about work stuff.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Right.

[Theo Von]

You know, in personal and regular life, I'm usually pretty chill.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Yeah.

[Theo Von]

But, yeah, I think when it comes to work and wanting to get things done. Yeah. And wanting to be, like, efficient or. Yeah. A lot of just unrealistic expectations.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Well, it sounds like it's motivated like that. There's an undercurrent of stress there. Right there. There's an undercurrent of like, hey, if. If I don't. If I don't meet these expectations, if I don't accomplish these things, something bad's gonna happen. Right. And so I'm. I'm. I'm anxious because I have these goals or I'm stressed because I have these goals, and I get mad when things get in the way of them.

[Theo Von]

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I think sometimes the motivate. It's like, I think sometimes they come from an unrealistic base overall because sometimes I think I just have unrealistic expectations of myself. Right. So that I'll never be able to achieve them. So I'll always be at a loss.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Right.

[Theo Von]

And so then it'll couple with some. Some, like, core belief I've always had that I'm not enough. Right. That sort of. Right. To me, that's how I've been able to kind of see that what some of that makeup is like. And I'm not trying to look at it as like, a woe is me. I'm just looking at it.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Yeah, no, that. That's great. And I would. I bet I don't know this, but. But tell me. You know, I bet sometimes those unreasonable expectations, the way that they matter, like boots on the ground in a particular week or day, is that you end up planning too much or trying to do too much, you know, and it's like, you know, you think to yourself, well, hey, for me to achieve X, I've got to get a B and C done this week. And it's impossible to get a B and C done in a single week. So you set yourself up for failure that way.

[Theo Von]

Oh, yeah. A lot of times I won't give things a lot of breathing room. And that kind of is a bummer. I know sometimes you'll have a meeting with a friend and like, oh, I wish this meeting could be another 45 minutes, but I only set Up a certain amount of time because I'm too focused on the work aspect of it and not focused on the human aspect of it. Sometimes that happens.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

I do this all the time. I set goals for myself. I do this every semester intentionally. I say, these are the things I want to do this semester, this year, whatever. And then what that translates into is, well, that means that this month I've got to get X, Y and Z done. I got to do these things. And then that means I over plan for a particular week or day. And then I get frustrated with myself. And then it connects back to that core belief that you're talking about of, well, I'm not good enough. Right.

[Theo Von]

Or I ruin everything. I can't do this. What the F? Yep, you F. You loser.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Too often the solution to that is that we, instead of giving ourselves grace and being patient with ourselves and saying, hey, we set impossible goals for ourself, is we just say, well, we just need to work harder.

[Theo Von]

Yeah.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Right. And then we feel crappy when we don't achieve it.

[Theo Von]

Man. It's just a lot of my life is I just have to work hard, harder.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Yeah.

[Theo Von]

I couldn't. Yeah, it was tough sometimes to have fun. I would tell my friends, I've said this before, but my friends like, let's go do this thing. And I'm like, I can't go. I have to write a book. And that's where my mind always was. Kind of. It was like, you can't go do that.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Yep.

[Theo Von]

You have all this to do.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Yeah.

[Theo Von]

Don't you know you have all this to do? And I would never even look at exactly what the stuff was. It was just this gin. And I didn't realize that's a reason. Like, well, what do I have to do? Like, I never even. I just. Just assumed I had to do all these things. It was like this to do list that was. Something was always being added onto.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Yeah.

[Theo Von]

And sometimes it was like the worst part of my brain was. Was just going to add things on there no matter what. Like unrealistic things.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Yep.

[Theo Von]

Like, look better.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Right.

[Theo Von]

Like, all right. By 8pm or whatever, you're like, this is cr. We can't do, you know, just like. Or just, you know, you should be different. Like, that's. But that would be like the kind of just like vague thing that would be on this.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Yeah. Well. Yeah. And then. And ultimately, you know that to do list never ends.

[Theo Von]

Right.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

I mean, you just keep adding to it because there's always more you can do. And so I. That's the problem. I mean I've been, I've been thinking about this a lot lately with work is that part of what happens is that we fill up the cracks. Like we fill up all the time with just more work. And this is particularly true of ambitious people is that they say, well, I can just, I can just keep going, right? There's no end, there's no end to the amount of work that I can, that I can find to fill in. And if I want to be successful in the ways I want to be successful, then that's what I've got to do. And then that's. That hurts, right? We suffer in the long run.

[Theo Von]

And it makes me think when you're talking about that, do we have like just such un. Like how do we temper or how do we perspectivize our goals for success? How do we look at. Can you help me say what I'm trying to say?

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

When is it enough? Right? I mean, yeah, like, and how can.

[Theo Von]

We even frame it for ourselves so that we're not just have this blind thing.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Yeah.

[Theo Von]

Like you need to be successful, right. So that it's actually specific and realistic and. Yeah. And then when is enough?

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Right? Well, I mean, because in some way, I mean, you said before you like running. I don't know if you do, if you do races, like if you've ever, if you ever run on, you know, whatever. But I mean, it'd be like, I don't do races.

[Theo Von]

I would do them, okay, but I don't do them yet.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

But it's like, it's like if every race you did, the finish line just kept moving, right. Because we move it on ourselves.

[Theo Von]

And.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

We don't accept that we've accomplished a thing. I do, I mean, one of the things I do to sort of keep myself happy, even though I have this personality style too, right. Where I'm just constantly adding to do's. One of the ways I keep myself happy is by really marking those achievements. Like when I've finished a thing, I treat it like an accomplishment. I don't just add to it. I stop and I say, we did a thing. Let's be happy about that. Let's be excited. Now we can take a day before we move on to the next thing. So the next thing's still going to be there for me. And I admit I think there's something about me that I need that next thing. I don't know what I do. Like, you know, if you want to get to the root of like what scares me most it's retirement, right?

[Theo Von]

Really?

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Oh, yeah. I don't.

[Theo Von]

Retirement in the sense of having too much time then, or retirement in the sense of just not having, like, a specific goal?

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Maybe it's that. I don't know what my brain would do. I don't know how it would operate without a thing. Without a thing to think about or, like, without work to think about. I don't know what it would.

[Theo Von]

Yeah, we gotta find out. Yeah, yeah, dude, we got it. Just. Just. Just torch your calendar and get a little weird. I feel like you just got, like, a little weird. I mean, you know, just to see what God wants, but it's like. Yeah. Oh, I can't imagine. Dude, if somebody said, you can't do that, like, yeah, you can't work tomorrow.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Yeah.

[Theo Von]

I literally, something would crawl out of me and go like this.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Yep. No, I have. I've been. We got furlough days this year. You know what a furlough is?

[Theo Von]

Like, for disease or something?

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

No, we had to take unpaid days, like forced to take unpaid days to save the university money. And we're literally not.

[Theo Von]

We're gonna do that.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Yeah.

[Theo Von]

Everybody know right now Dr. Ryan Martin has brought in.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Yeah. Yeah. So we're literally not allowed to work. Right. And so. And I mean, I shouldn't say this because I'll get in trouble, but I've been working on those days. I just don't use my computer because I'm not allowed to, because I'm just, like, on my phone, like, doing stuff. I'm on a different computer, just still working. So.

[Theo Von]

Yeah, I work sometimes to keep me away from having to deal with my own personal life, I think, sometimes.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Okay.

[Theo Von]

Do people do that?

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Oh, yeah, absolutely. I mean, that's a. That's a real distraction for. I mean, that. That's part of. Part of what happens is. Yeah.

[Theo Von]

Yeah. Because I think it feels manageable, you know, it just feels like I can control what's going to happen, you know?

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Yeah, absolutely. I get that.

[Theo Von]

But that's okay. That doesn't mean necessarily a bad thing.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

No, I don't think so either. I mean, I think, like, there are lots of things in people's lives that can be fulfilling. And. Yeah, personal relationships are absolutely one of those things. And people should. They're good for us in a gajillion different ways. But people can be fulfilled by their work. Especially, I mean, especially when they identify ways that their work is really meaningful and not just to them, but to the world around them. And if they can see that and then. Yeah. It's really fulfilling to do that work. I think what would make me sad is if I hit a point where I thought, hey, I've been doing all of this and none of it really mattered. Right.

[Theo Von]

To you.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Yeah. Or to people in the world. Right. It all sort of went away. I don't think that's true of the job I do. I don't think it's true of the job you do. I think it matters to people, and it matters to me. But it would be, you know, for someone whose job was to do whatever.

[Theo Von]

Yeah. You know, they could see that happening. I could see especially, like, as we get more technologically advanced and we take away jobs, you know, that people start to lose their purpose. You have to have some purpose.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Right.

[Theo Von]

Or you just. You won't have any. You won't care about yourself or anything. Everything has to have a purpose.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Yep. And then. And then for people, it's about, well, where do they find that? Right. Because maybe it's not work, and it's okay if it's not work. Right. It could be. It could be your hobbies. It could be your family. It could be seeing the world. It could be a billion things.

[Theo Von]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I do think, though, that sometimes with, like. Like. Like, I wish there was just something that was like, hey, no more technology.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Yep. Yeah. Yeah.

[Theo Von]

You know, like, we're. We're doing fine. We don't need, like, a robot sheriff and six Uber drivers hiding from him all, you know, like. And everything. You know, it's like, that's what it just. Yeah. I don't know. I think about that sometimes, like, why we wouldn't stop technology because it doesn't feel like it serves us sometimes at a certain point.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Right. Yeah. Well, especially the way in which we have reacted to it. I mean, in so many ways, technology, I think, almost by definition, is supposed to make our lives better and supposed to make our lives easier. Right.

[Theo Von]

Yeah.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

And I don't necessarily see that happening. Right. It makes specific tasks easier, but then we fill up that space with other work. Right. You know, it. Like, have you ever tried to do some task that's really easy now, but have you ever thought about, like, what it used to be, like, when we were young to, like.

[Theo Von]

Oh, yeah, dude. Like, I even. Just Even writing a sentence the other day, it was like, way, where are we?

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Yeah.

[Theo Von]

I was like, what happened, dude? Is this. Are we in, like, the. Is this a war treaty or something? I was like, what are we even? And then I was watching. It was a pencil. Right. And I was watching the leg come out of it. I was like, this is crazy. This just happened. I cannot even believe it.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Yeah, it's. I mean, when I think about how. I think. Honestly, it was like it was getting my tickets for this flight, and I was, like, thinking about how there was a time when, like, you ordered paper tickets and they came in the mail and you had to, like, carry them.

[Theo Von]

With you, and you were all excited. Yeah, yeah.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Versus having fun.

[Theo Von]

Yeah. You got a ticket to a concert. Like, there were certainly things that added this. Like, there was more of a. When there was more paper in the world, things that. I don't know, things felt a little bit more connected. Even when there was, like, a local newspaper and stuff, and you got your name in it for something or you got to see what was happening in your community, it was a big deal. Like, they don't have a lot of those anymore. And so a lot of just like, the value of being a community that's not just like a national community feels like it's dilapidating some.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

I think that's true. I mean, I think that's the. There's definitely a degree to which people have sort of, like, locked themselves into their homes in ways that they're like. And they think they're interacting with people. Right. Because they are online, but they're not necessarily coming out and talking to their neighbors regularly.

[Theo Von]

No, they're not even talking to their spouses or kids. They're all just in their room on their devices, just ordering doordash or whatever. Like exotic pistachios or whatever. Like, people are ordering just a lot of weird stuff. And then it just. At Christmas, they all meet up in the living room, and everybody's like, wow, mom grew a mustache. You know, and it's just. Yeah, it's just. I don't know, it's a different time.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Exotic pistachios?

[Theo Von]

Yeah, they're good. Some of them are good.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Are they?

[Theo Von]

I'm trying to think. Any other things you found that you've gotten yourself. That you get angry at yourself for? Dr. Martin?

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

I think some things that, like, the things that tend to jump out of me, a lot of them are things we talked about. Like, it's. I. I get angry at myself when I don't achieve whatever I set my mind to, whatever I've decided. And that's true not just with work, but it's true with, like, personal or fitness goals or things like that. You know, when I. Like I said, I map out pretty specific goals, and then when I Don't achieve those things. I tend to get disappointed with myself, I think. I tend to. I've become much more relaxed over time. Not necessarily at work, but much more relaxed about just the. My interactions with other people that I meet. Every. I've sort of embraced that philosophy of, hey, everybody's dealing with something. And just, you know, I was going through security yesterday at the airport and I. For whatever reason. I think you'll appreciate this. For whatever reason, I got flagged by their, like, system.

[Theo Von]

Yeah, hit him. I was angry.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

You know the system where you go in and you have to stand there with your arms up and then it like, smells you or something?

[Theo Von]

I don't know.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

I don't know what it does, really.

[Theo Von]

Yeah. So somebody said it is. They take the smell of you and just email it to Satan or whatever. That scares me.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Well, I walked out and it, like, it lit up both my crotch and my ass, like, on their, like, little monitor. And the guy was like, sorry, man, we gotta. We gotta. We gotta pat you down. And he took me aside and I think I got a trainee. And he was. And he. He was a little rough with me, man.

[Theo Von]

Was he?

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Yeah. And it was like. It was a rough pat down and it was.

[Theo Von]

Was he using more palms? You think palms are denser?

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

No, he told me, he walked me through this. Here's what I think happened. I think because he was a trainee, he felt the need to, like, do a real good job.

[Theo Von]

And so he told me, you're gonna know.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Yeah. He's like. Cause my supervisor's watching. I gotta. So this is where. Why I'm telling the story is because, like, I'm gonna grant this guy some grace and just say, he's doing his best. He's got a new job. He's trying. He's trying really hard. Maybe too hard. Yeah. But he did the thing where he put his hands like this and he patted me and he walked me through in advance. He told me what was going to happen. He also had to go up and down my legs.

[Theo Von]

Oh, yeah. That's a big one. Kind of.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Yeah.

[Theo Von]

It's like, if you just ask me if something's on my legs, I'll tell you. Honestly.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Yeah.

[Theo Von]

That's who I am.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Yeah. At one point he said, do you want to. Would you like me to take you someplace private? And I was like, no, I really don't. I want to be out here.

[Theo Von]

You met online?

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Yeah. Yeah, Craigslist. It was great. Yeah, we met out in the woods. He wanted to.

[Theo Von]

Dude, there used to be A Strange Encounters on Craigslist. Casual encounters.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Oh, yeah.

[Theo Von]

Yeah. You could go on there and just meet strangers in the middle of nowhere if you wanted to.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

No, thanks.

[Theo Von]

I did it.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Did you? Yeah.

[Theo Von]

I wish I wouldn't have probably, but there was definitely some different times. You just didn't know, you know?

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Huh?

[Theo Von]

Just.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Gosh, I. I've only used Craigslist to sell stuff. And we didn't meet in the woods. We just met at my house.

[Theo Von]

Tbd, brother. You know, there's more to be. There's more to know. I'm sure. These are your books right here. Why We Get Mad.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Those are for you. Oh, thank you. You can give them away, but you gotta find someone named Theo to give them to.

[Theo Von]

Okay. Oh, thank you.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Now they're worthless.

[Theo Von]

Yeah, that's super cool. How to Deal with Angry People. Yeah. What do you tell people in this?

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Yeah. So that book, it's broken into two sections. It's got one that really explains where anger comes from, where, why people get angry, some of those angry personality types we were talking about. And then it goes through, like, 10 specific suggestions for how you can deal with angry people when you interact with them. Some of it's like, how do you deal with people that you run into online? Some of it's, how do you stay calm? Part of it's, do you consider whether or not you really screwed up? Maybe the problem is that you blew it and you need to find ways to make amends. So it's things like that.

[Theo Von]

Is apologizing ever a bad idea, do you think.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

What I usually say about apologizing is that I don't think people should do it if they don't meet. I mean, I think you should mean your apology. Yeah. And I think a lot of times we, you know, So I think that one of the things we've done is by. Especially with kids, a lot of times we force them to apologize and say, like, you gotta go say you're sorry. And, you know, I think that actually sends a message of, well, apologizing is what you do to get out of trouble. And that isn't necessarily why we should apologize.

[Theo Von]

Right.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

We should apologize if we're really sorry. I actually don't want people to apologize to me if they're not actually sorry. Sorry. Right. Then it's just a meaningless gesture.

[Theo Von]

And it's weird, too. They're still calling you names, but they're apologizing.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Right, Right. And so, like, I'm sorry I called.

[Theo Von]

You a name, you little.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Yes.

[Theo Von]

And then you're like, Jesus. God.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

And it. Because. So if it doesn't lead to changed behavior, then what's the. What's the point? Yeah, so I think. So I think. But the flip side of that is when a person is sorry, they should apologize and they should do it well, you know, like they should. They should do it effectively. They should, you know, tell people what they're sorry for, and they should. They should make amends in a way that suggests that it won't happen again. And I think that's where a lot of people fall short, is that it's always a I'm sorry if or I'm sorry, but instead of just I'm sorry.

[Theo Von]

Yeah. What can I do to make it up to you? That sort of thing. Before you go, I wanted to. I wanted to ask you. Why do people. Why is road rage such a thing? Why does that.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Yeah. Driving is just the absolute perfect scenario for leading to anger. Everything about it. I mean, truly, if you were an evil genius and you wanted to create a situation that was going to make people mad, you would create one that. That looked like driving.

[Theo Von]

Right. I got to get from here to here.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Yep. I got goals, and there's people in the way of those goals. Those people who are blocking them are anonymous to me. So I can think or say whatever I want.

[Theo Von]

Right.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

I can call them a total fucking idiot, and I don't know, they might be a genius, and I'll have no idea. There's all these unwritten rules of the road. I mean, there's written rules, but then there's also, like, what speed should you be going? Right. I mean.

[Theo Von]

Right. So there's vagueness in there, too, which can.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Yeah. So it's the thing I often ask my students is what speed should you go on the interstate? And because nobody says the speed limit, it's always 5 over, 10 over, 15 over. Right. And so if you and I are on the road and we have different. What's your answer to that?

[Theo Von]

My answer, probably 11 miles over.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Okay. So I'm pretty close to that. I'm like nine, Right. I tend to set the crews at nine over. So if you and I encounter each other on the road and you're behind me, well, you get mad because I'm not obeying your arbitrary rule. Right. And I get mad because you're a hazard. Right. You're riding my bumper or whatever, because, hey, I'm already going fast enough.

[Theo Von]

Yeah.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

So these arbitrary rules set people off. All of that ends up. And then on top of that, it's kind of a Nerve wracking situation. We don't actually think of it. We've been driving long enough that we forget how anxiety provoking it actually is. But it's dangerous. Right. And so real harm can happen. And so all of that tends to exacerbate that likelihood of getting angry when, when people slow us down or get in the way. And then add to it that the consequences are so significant of people running people off the road when they get mad. People.

[Theo Von]

Oh, I see.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Yeah. Just things like that. Like that. Those consequences. We see those. Right. I mean, they're very visible. In fact, we have seen more road rage related shootings in the last two years than ever before. That people are, are, are getting aggressive.

[Theo Von]

Oh yeah. If I'm aggressive, dude. And. And I have a gun.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Yep.

[Theo Von]

It's anybody's ball game, dude.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

There we go.

[Theo Von]

Very unfortunate. Very senseless. Visitors witnessed deadly Myrtle beach road rage shooting. Oh yeah. They call it murder beach now. I think.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Geez.

[Theo Von]

Every place is starting to be called like murder something. But yeah, people are just shooting. They just. I had a friend in New Orleans that died in a road rage. It. Yeah, it's crazy. It's really crazy. But it is. It's that intense moment. But as a driver, if you can play it out in your head like you were saying earlier, how do I want this to play out?

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Yep.

[Theo Von]

The truth is you probably want that guy to get a flat tire sometime the next day or whatever, that's fine. But right now you want to get to where you're going.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

And honestly, most of the time in those situations, I want to get as far from that person as possible. Yeah. Like I don't. I don't want to interact with them.

[Theo Von]

Yeah, you can't be. Yeah. Following them. What is this? Somebody road raging. Oh, this guy punched open a back window. That's hard to do.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Yes, that is hard to do. Oh.

[Theo Von]

Oh, this seems like a. Oh, she just popped the trunk. Boy. Dang, bro. She's carrying. Oh, she got a hatchet.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

What?

[Theo Von]

Oh, and he hit her. And those are children.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

That's wild.

[Theo Von]

But it is crazy. That one guy, he acted like they were crazy for coming after him after he went and hit their window.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Broker.

[Theo Von]

Yeah, but it's crazy. You would think you just leave if somebody broke your window. That dude. Yeah, that guy or whatever.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

These incidents are everywhere now. I mean, you, you scroll through. I mean, that's the part of it. So I had a weird interaction right outside my kid's school one day where I was parked waiting for pickup. And this Woman came and she parked her car in front of me and she was backing up, and I got a little anxious that she didn't realize how close she was. And so I honked, but it wasn't. I mean, to me, this is what a horn is for, actually. Right. It's like to alert someone, like, hey, you're. You might hit me. Not because I was mad. I wasn't. But, wow, it made her mad. She was really mad that I'd honked at her. But what was interesting is that she got out of the car and she came over to talk to me, and she immediately started recording. She took her phone out and started videoing the situation, I think, thinking that we might.

[Theo Von]

Things might escalate.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Things might escalate and wanting it captured if it did. I think that, like, which I do wonder sometimes, what is. Do phones. And I don't have an answer to this. Do phones de. Escalate situations or do they escalate? You know, like, if.

[Theo Von]

Right. Once the show is on now, do I have to perform?

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Right. I had a soccer coach come yell at me one day. Not just me, like, yell at the fans at a game. And I've often. I mean, he was out of control. I've often wondered what would have happened if I just taken my phone out and started recording. Would he have been like, oh, I should back away or what?

[Theo Von]

Right. Or if that was just exacerbated.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Yeah.

[Theo Von]

And I don't know, dude.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Yeah.

[Theo Von]

Wow. Yeah. Because that's interesting. It's almost like art imitates life or whatever. It's like we're just like. If we're watching something violent happen and then we get involved in something violent, the first thing to do, then a lot of times wouldn't even be to help. It would be to record.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Right, Right.

[Theo Von]

Because that's what we just saw. If we just saw something recorded.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Right. Right. It makes me. I mean, I truly wonder is that. I mean, there must be circumstances where that's the smart thing to do. Where that is going to deescalate.

[Theo Von]

Right.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

You know, where people are going to start to sort of say, like, oh, I don't want to be. I don't want to be famous.

[Theo Von]

Yeah. I think if someone is probably urinating in your yard or something, then you definitely. I'm going to record you. And then like, oh, I'm not going to be doing this on that camera. On the right camera. I'm going put my pants up or whatever. But I think if it's somebody who's just like, I don't know. That's a good question.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

I think part of the question is how rational are they in that moment? Right. You know, I mean, if they're right.

[Theo Von]

They might be doing it as a safety mechanism.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Yep.

[Theo Von]

I'm going to make sure things don't get out of control.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Right, right. Yep.

[Theo Von]

But yeah. Road rage, commonly characterized by aggressive driving, is a factor in more than 50% of all car crashes that end in fatality according to triple S. In fact, in a separate years long study, road raid episodes resulted in about 30 deaths and 1800 injuries per year.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

You know, it's funny, one of the things that I oftentimes talk to people about, it's like it's the. So I did a TED talk on anger. If you haven't seen it back a while ago. And so like the premise of that talk is that anger is good for you. There it is. That anger's like good for you in all these different ways. One circumstance that I would not advocate. Anger is behind the wheel. Right. It's just, it feels like there's no good outcome, that it just puts you in a dangerous spot and better to. Better to just back away and let it go. Yeah, let it go.

[Theo Von]

Yeah. What are good ways at anger? When is anger healthy?

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Yeah, I mean, I think a lot of it is. If you grant the premise that unfairness exists in the world, that there are injustices in the world, and I do grant that premise, then feeling anger is totally natural and healthy. And it's what we do with it that is most recent. Anger, like any emotion, it exists in us because of our evolutionary history. It exists in us because it, it encouraged our ancestors to fight back. And so it was a survival mechanism. And so from that perspective, it's still valuable. So the same way I get thirsty and I get a sip of water, anger motivates me to confront injustice.

[Theo Von]

Right. And you're gonna need it too. I mean, if they didn't, if we got rid of anger completely, then what if there were tyranny or something, we'd never be able to stand up to it, you know, or what if there were?

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Yeah, I mean, anger is behind all these social movements in really meaningful ways. Right. And now we were talking earlier about protests and social media that. But anger is what's motivating most of those in oftentimes in healthy ways.

[Theo Von]

Yeah, yeah. Dr. Ryan Martin. I'm trying to think of anything else we can cover. I think we got a pretty good.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Yeah, we went from flushing the toilet before you. Before you're done, peeing all the way to getting padded down at the. By a TSA agent. By an overly aggressive TSA agent.

[Theo Von]

I think we've covered a lot.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

That's a lot of ground.

[Theo Von]

Dr. Ryan Martin, thank you so much, man, for coming in.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Yeah, thank you, man. This has been a absolute treat. It's been great talking to you and it's been fun being, being here.

[Theo Von]

Yeah, appreciate it, man. It's been interesting to just learn more a little bit about anger. And the thing that has helped me at times, times is that moment of thinking, how do I want this to play out?

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Yep, that's good.

[Theo Von]

If I can let that get me at that moment when you're about to open the card or whatever, you know, you're about to go in the other room and say something. How do I want this evening to play out this afternoon, this next hour, this next week?

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Yep. Yeah, I, yeah, I agree. I mean I think that like that has to be thinking about that outcome you want. What is your desired outcome in any situation.

[Theo Von]

Yeah.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Is so important. And then. Because the next question is, well then how do I get there? Right. What is the thing I have to do to accomplish this? And you know, and now the second piece is having the presence of mind to de, escalate yourself in order to have that thought and be intentional about that. Right.

[Theo Von]

Yeah. If you can get to that thought, you're probably going to be okay.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Right.

[Theo Von]

I've noticed that for myself, if I can get to that thought, I'm probably going to be okay because most of the time I'm going to choose. Let's find a way to get this. Let's find a way to just get through this.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Yep. And I think for people who have real genuine anger problems, they're not able to get to that thought, you know, that they're so escalated in the moment. It's this righteous anger that is driving everything they're thinking about and they're not able to get to the place of. Okay, what's the rational healthy thing to do right now?

[Theo Von]

Yeah. Because I think preserving your peace is really key. I mean there's just everything is loud everywhere. There's just everything is like signaling or letting you know, notifications never ending now I think just holding onto your peace and if you can remember that how do I want this to. How do I really want this to end? It's really good for any situation, honestly.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

It's good for, it's good for the small day to day interactions. It's good for big life goals.

[Theo Von]

Yeah. Business. It's like if you're calling to make a deal with somebody, maybe they don't want the deal or maybe it's not. But do you want to do deals with them for the next 10 years? How do you want things to look long term? Do you need to be. Does the price need to be that? Can it be a different price over five years and. And you still have a great business relationship, you know?

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Yep.

[Theo Von]

Yeah. Do you have to win this argument? Do you have to defeat that Pontiac Firebird that just flipped you off, dude.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Right.

[Theo Von]

You probably don't.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Probably not. It probably doesn't matter in the long run that you win that.

[Theo Von]

But how do you get through it today? How do you reach out to your spouse if you're angry? How do you reach out to your spouse and just say something nice just because you know it's going to make it better when you guys get home or when you see each other again so that they're not going to have a tough day, you know, how do you, even, if you're mad at your girlfriend or something, say, look, everything will be okay, you know?

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Yep. Thinking through to those long term goals, what do you. How do you want this situation to be and then. And then charting the path to get there. I think honestly for a lot of people, the challenges that they have, they aren't able necessarily or haven't spent enough time thinking about that destination and being really intentional about. This is the outcome I want. This is the outcome I want today, this is the outcome I want next week. And so this is the outcome I want for this drive to work is to get there safely. Once you start having that thought, then it helps you to stop diverging into stupid, stupid directions.

[Theo Von]

Yeah, yeah. Sometimes I don't have that. And so then I'm at the whims or whatever.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Right.

[Theo Von]

You know, sometimes I'm just a little bit aimless, which is okay. But. But, but it can be risky. Dr. Ryan Martin, thank you so much for coming in, man.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

You bet. Thanks so much for having me. This has been a treat. I appreciate it.

[Theo Von]

Yeah. Been dealing with some anger and so just excited to get to talk about and just think about it. So thank you for sharing your knowledge.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

Yeah, you bet. Thanks, man.

[Theo Von]

Now I'm just floating on the breeze.

[Dr. Ryan Martin]

And I feel I'm falling like these leaves I must be cornerstone oh but when I reach that ground I'll share this piece of my life found I can feel it in my bones but it's gonna take.