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This Week in Global Development
Special episode: A conversation with the Mines Advisory Group
00:24:14
In this week’s special edition of the This Week in Global Development podcast, we spotlight the https://www.devex.com/organizations/mines-advisory-group-mag-48260, or MAG, recipient of the 2025 Hilton Humanitarian Prize — the world’s largest annual...
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- [00:04]
A
Hi, everyone. I'm Rajkumar, president and editor in chief of devex. This week, we'll be breaking down the big headlines in global development and bringing in some top experts to help us do it. If you want to follow along with the stories we're talking about, check out devex.com and subscribe to our daily newsletter, the Newswire. There's a link in the description. Follow us along on Twitter, and you can see many of the stories we're talking about today. And we'd love to hear what you think this is this week in global development. Well, I'm thrilled to be here with Darren Cormack. You're the CEO of the MINDS Advisory Group. I'm Raj Kumar. And you're listening to a special episode and watching a special episode of the devex podcast. This is a sponsored episode by the Hilton foundation because we are here to talk to the latest winner of the Conrad and Hilton Humanitarian Prize. It's a big thing. Congrats.
- [01:00]
B
Thank you. Thank you. We're so honored. Really. It's a difficult year for the sector. So to be here, to be honored in this way, to be recognized for the work that we do and to try and sort of recognize the thousands of staff around the world who make communities safe from landmines, it's a humbling and galvanizing, if not occasionally tiring few days here in New York.
- [01:22]
A
My guess is if you're in the landmines business, most of the phone calls you get are not good news. And here you got a phone call. It was pretty. Pretty great news.
- [01:30]
B
It was. Yeah. I mean, interestingly, I mean, MAGA tried many times to apply for this prize because it's such a significant award in terms of recognition and obviously the opportunity it presents in terms of funding. And I was in the south of Ukraine at the time, and I get an email from our head of philanthropy, and normally we get an email from the foundation to say, thank you so much. You know, you were so close, but, you know, let's stay friends. And. And it was an email that said, hey, can we talk tomorrow? And the head of philanthropy was like, hey, Chance, we can do this tonight. I've got to put myself out of misery. And I was like, no, no, I've got to get up to Kyiv. So I looked to Kyiv. That night had seen the most devastating attack on Kyiv in months. My driver who'd driven us up to Kyiv, had his family home had been bombed. But he didn't tell us until we got out of the car. Cause he was so keen to be committed and get us where we needed to be, and then to find out that we've been recognized for this. And in recognition of those Demanors I'd spent two days with in the south of Ukraine whose lives have been completely offended and were now doing what they can to make their community safe.
- [02:39]
A
It.
- [02:40]
B
Was the right time, and it was the right moment, the right context to get a piece of news like that. That's amazing.
- [02:44]
A
I got to tell you, the first way I got connected to this issue, I was a teenager, and I had put together a little humanitarian mission to Mostar. It was right after the Dayton Accords were set, and we were a bunch of college students. We didn't really know anything, and we were transitioning, making our way over to Mozart. We were in Zagreb, and an American army colonel saw these American students and came up to us, so, what are you doing here? I explained everything, and he said, have you had training about unexploded ordinance and landmines? I said, I don't know what you're talking about. And he gave us a quick impromptu training on the side of the orb and said, this is where you can't get. And that was the first time it really opened my eyes to, wow, this is a huge effect on people's lives, and it's maybe a permanent effect if groups like yours, like Mag, don't exist. And this is what you're out there doing every day, right?
- [03:32]
B
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And it is. So of the 6,000 people killed or injured by landmines in 2023, 80% of the people killed, injured are civilians, and nearly 40% of those are children. And that's the civilian price of conflict that we're still seeing. And that's not just risk to life and limb. You know, we're seeing a landmine emergency right now in Syria. Extraordinary levels of people killed and injured. You know, over 1200 so far this year. And that's equivalent in terms of levels of impact to what we were seeing in the 90s, which brought the world's attention to the issue and galvanized efforts to get the Mine Ban Treaty. So we're seeing it again now in Syria. We have a team into Sudan this week trying to establish a program. So it's both an immediate risk to life and limb, but in places like Bosnia, it must have been a few years ago with, no offense say, you.
- [04:25]
A
Were there, but this was 1996.
- [04:27]
B
96. All right.
- [04:28]
A
And you all, you won the Nobel Prize, and you and other groups working on these issues in 1997. And then here we are all these years later, you're now winning the Hilton Humanitarian Prize. And it just shows you, as you say, like the arc of the issue. It hasn't gone away by any stretch. I think it has grown and evolved.
- [04:44]
B
Though, as the issue.
- [04:44]
A
Right. What's different about it today that the Hilton foundation felt the need to elevate the issue and elevate and focus on the work that you're doing?
- [04:53]
B
I mean, I think the backdrop right now is we're seeing these rising levels of conflict, you know, highest levels of conflict since World War II, and, you know, new emergencies in terms of use of explosive weapons in populated areas. So whether that be, as I say, somewhere like Syria, Sudan, obviously the devastation in Gaza that we've all witnessed, but also in Ukraine, I think it's been. These conflicts, I think, have elevated it in terms of public consciousness. And also we're seeing challenges in respect to international humanitarian law and some of those long held norms that I think govern to some extent conflict, I think they're being eroded. And within that, disarmament treaties, including the mine ban treaty, and we've seen those be under threat as a result of how weapons are being used. And so states of position themselves. So I think all those ingredients are in there, you know, as we, as we kind of told our story, but the story we're principally telling is that the vast majority of people, as I say, are impacted as civilians. And too often that's children. And I think that deadly legacy that, you know, either we clear a landmine or somebody steps on them. They're the only two ways of dealing with this problem ultimately. And they'll stay in the ground. And they're still there in Bosnia. That road you drove on will still.
- [06:06]
A
Have exactly signs about the economic development that could happen in countries after they've resolved the conflict.
- [06:14]
B
But that won't exactly.
- [06:15]
A
Right. And you mentioned Ukraine. I interviewed Howie Buffett not long ago who's working there, trying to take tractors and retrofit them to be mind detection devices. And you know, his argument is, look, Ukraine's the breadbasket of the world. Exactly. And if these farmers can't go back to work because there's unexploded ordinance in their field, that's not just an impact on them and their families, that's a global impact. It is including on families in West Africa that might be importing, you know, agricultural products. So, you know, the landmine detection and, and dealing with unexploded ordinance, it can sound like a very niche Issue.
- [06:48]
B
Yeah.
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A
But the more I've learned about over the years, it seems like it's actually pretty fundamental in a lot of these countries.
- [06:53]
B
Yeah, yeah. Oh, it really does enable that agricultural productivity. And, you know, I spent recently, as I say, in Ukraine, and we're working with the Buffett foundation on some of that mechanical use of mechanical assets to. To find more efficient and effective ways of releasing land at, I mean, unprecedented levels of contamination in Ukraine. And what's really critical is finding the most efficient and effective way of releasing that land. Part of the issue is a lot of communities understandably, are fear. Are terrified of using their land. They might have heard of an accident, seen evidence of an accident, and large swathes of land become suspected as hazardous, when in fact, actually it might only be a proportion of that land which is confirmed as hazardous, as we would call it. And trying to use the most efficient and effective way of reducing that problem down to what is the actual problem is a big part of mine action. It's a big part of being able to say to the community, you can go on and use this land to a farmer, you can use this land and confidently use your machinery in this land to get it back into productive use. And it's also the same for smallholders as well. In someone like Lebanon, which was impacted by an enormous rise in commodity import prices because of the war in Ukraine, we. We've got studies where we're generating a 4 to 1 return on the investment because people can go in and use their land more productively. And that might be. They might be using it as individuals, but not willing to maybe get casual labor for which they're liable onto their land in larger numbers. So they might be able to use it, but not as efficiently because they don't have confidence, confidence to plant seeds or whatever. That a deeper depth. So it's really multifaceted the effect, as you're saying.
- [08:35]
A
So how do you. I mean, it's a huge responsibility on your shoulders. Right, to think that you're certifying, we've checked it, this land is safe. How do you do that? How do you feel confident? What are some of the techniques that you're actually using to identify these ordinances and remove them?
- [08:52]
B
Yeah, I mean, we work very closely with national authorities in the host government with which we work and sort of broader architecture, if you like, of what we do is international mine action standards. So it's a highly kind of evolved sector in terms of standard operating procedures and a really healthy community within operators where we share best practice and make sure that we're all working to a similar standard and a similar approach. So if you get a new type of device that you might not be familiar with because recent conflicts and mass manufacturer of improvised devices like someone like ISIS did, we would share that learning. We'd be writing up technical notes to advise people. And then based on the experience of highly trained individuals who work for us internationally, but working with the vast majority of staff who are from the community, you would be approaching that problem. And basically based on the type of device that you are looking at, you know, you would approach it in a fit for purpose way. So it might be mechanical machinery that is more effective, you know, way of dealing with that problem, or you might have types of devices which are particularly sensitive and have to be handled in a very particular way. That might be no touch mines. So you might find them, but we have to then blow them up in situ. So it is really quite intricate, delicate work. But if you do what you're supposed to do, and a big part of what we have to do is ensure just that culture really of, of discipline so people don't get tired and take shortcuts, you know, we have Jeanette joining us for this dinner tonight. She's come from Mexico province in eastern Angola. It's a long way from to New York City and she's feeling a bit of a fish out of water. But in a minefield commanding a team of 14, she's great, you know, and it's all about training and discipline and following those procedures.
- [10:34]
C
Foreign if you're listening to this podcast, you're probably already working in Global Development, or maybe you're thinking about carving out a new path in the social impact space. Regardless, we all need a little help sometimes in our pursuit of a happy, fulfilling and impactful work life. Whether you're actively searching for a new role or looking for some pointers on how to strike a healthier way work life balance. I'm Justin Sablich, devex's careers editor, and each Friday in the Career Hub newsletter, I'll bring you inside the minds of leading career coaches and recruiters to help you navigate the next step of your professional journey. You'll also have access to the latest hiring and salary trends and a weekly dose of the best leads from Global Development's largest job board. Visit devex.comcareerhub to subscribe.
- [11:26]
A
Is the is the work of identifying minds and dealing with them changing with technology? We talked about the idea of, you know, how we thought of tractors and are there other things drones or AI are you doing? Are you going to change the way you actually work given the technology revolution or are some of these things sort of just core activities people have to do?
- [11:45]
B
It's both. And certainly we're receptive and open to innovation and Ukraine has really been a catalyst for new ideas and opportunities to maybe look at how you use AI to process large swathes of information from the use of drone or survey technology of a large area, particularly given the scale that we're dealing with in Ukraine. So that's one way we're certainly open to innovation, but innovation can often be associated with shiny technological developments. And as I say, we're open to that. But it's often the day to day processes that you can find ways of doing more efficiently. And over the years we found if we can work with national authorities, authorities and work with them to say, you know what, maybe clearing to a shallower depth than we currently have to clear because the type of contamination we're working with that can result in enormous improvements in efficiency or attitudes to whether something a minefield might have to be completely metal free or just mine free. You know, and some national authorities don't feel confident in handing over land that is not, that is only mind free. Because what are these other signals and how do we kind of create some of that peer learning opportunities between states within. We work to.
- [13:00]
A
So you could have shrapnel from war.
- [13:02]
B
Or Coke cans bottles by generating a signal. And we have some really interesting research and development going on with an arm of the Defense Department here in the US that we're trying to find ways to reduce the inefficiency of, of what ultimately we need to be digging as few holes as possible to find mines. So we get to mines rather than incorrect signals, if you like.
- [13:27]
A
You referred to this a little bit at the start of the discussion. It's a tough moment to be working in the humanitarian space. Funding levels are really under threat from all around the world. How do you make the case to policymakers that this is the stuff they should focus on in the sea of priorities with a diminishing budget, you know, why focus on mine action?
- [13:47]
B
Well, I mean it's. I break it down to three arguments and this is always one of the tensions of the international landscape. Different donors are focusing on it for different reasons based on their foreign policy priorities, development policy priorities. But for me, I outlined kind of three reasons typically. One, and I think, you know, for us organizationally, that moral imperative to help people whose, you know, life and limb is in danger, it's that humanitarian imperative to do what we do because of the numbers of people, you know, civilians and children. The second is the development argument is the fact that we enable wider activity. That might be humanitarian assistance in conflict zones, but it's also about, if we talked about, it's about enabling agricultural productivity, access to schools. I was talking the other night at a conference about a school in northeast Syria that we local community were unable to use because it been an ISIS prison camp. And for many years after the conflict, it was still booby trapped, it was still suspect as hazardous. We were able to finally release that school. It took a couple of months to clear it. And now 700 children are going to that school. And I think if communities can feel that their roots are deepening, that connection to place, to home, that sense of opportunity and renewal as we see so many people return to Syria now, I think is a contribution to that stability in fragile context. And certainly for some of the pressures that Europe's feeling around migration from that region, but other states, there's a development and stabilization agenda. But thirdly is also this piece around how you're linking sort of diplomacy, defense and development. And so many of the countries in which we work in. It's got, it's a diplomatic lever because it builds confidence. What we do is tangible. You know, a senior general, we might be working with seized land that's cleared. You can show to your community, your citizens that this land is now safe. It's a very tangible expression of aid. It becomes a diplomatic lever for ambassadors to pull as a result of that, that relationship. But you know, there's also a domestic dividend, you know, partly because it's an issue that resonates with the public. And the public, I think need to.
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A
Feel any voter is even in donor.
- [15:55]
B
Exactly. Because I think the public need to feel that their tax is being well spent. And there are obviously enormous pressures on state budgets and skepticism towards aid. And I think when you feel like that this is a tangible delivery of aid and there's high profile public figures who've been associated with the issues, it generates good media coverage. I think that lineage of humanitarian impact, enabling development, but also that contribution to wider diplomacy and that public dividend. I think there are three reasons that we constantly try and cite as the contribution that we make to saving lives and enabling safer futures.
- [16:34]
A
I think people listening to this are familiar with the Hilton Prize and the fact that it's not just $3 million, which is a significant sum, but it's also totally unrestricted. And I imagine that's Unusual for an organization like yours. Give people a sense of what does it mean? Practically it's a great honor, it's a great recognition. But practically, what does this mean for you at mag?
- [16:55]
B
Yeah, well, we're still processing that, I must admit. For 30 odd years we've been very much based on making sure that the sum of all the contracts that we deliver stacks up. And that was typically how action has been funded by a handful of government donors and some generous public and philanthropic support, but nothing at the scale that we're seeing now. I mean, for me, we're exploring areas I think right now. I think the funding challenges that the sector at large has experienced this year and is dealing with as we go forward. The humanitarian system's overwhelmed, no question. And I think we need to leverage and attract new forms of finance generally, and that includes mags. So we'll be investing and continuing to champion the needs of communities and engage with new forms of philanthropy finance initiatives that we hope can make a further contribution to the needs that we're seeing. But we also want to find a way of developing some innovation. I think everybody likes innovation and everybody wants to pay for innovation. We've got some fantastic work with the Buffett foundation going on, but if we can scale up some of those ideas to improve efficiency and effectiveness, the rest of the money that we get is well spent. That's going to be vital for communities so we can do more with less or less ultimately. But thirdly, you know, I, I took over as CEO about five years ago and it's been, you know, kind of went straight into Covid and then the war in Ukraine, Gaza and now this. It's been a bit, it's been bumpy, but. And interesting. But I've really always wanted to put our staff and that culture of the organization at the heart of it. So I really want to try and find a way that staff feel a degree of engagement and ownership. You know, we can't, we can't run the organization with $3 million. You know, it's, it's, it's about how do we kind of create opportunities for staff to feel, you know, one good idea. Like, you know, bring me that one good idea. What would make you.
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A
What?
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B
Do not. Do I not feel as a CEO because I'm slightly sheltered from it. That is really causing you a headache. It might be something in the field like a clearance technique, but it might be the pain of filling in timesheets once a month that need to automate and just trying to listen to staff to sort of make somebody's life a bit easier with some of this. And that's a really big. So I want to find a way of stuff to feel like they're part of this and how we use this. So. But we're exploring what that might look like as we go forward.
- [19:05]
A
And I think that's the whole intent, is that this is catalytic capital. Right. I mean, they see it's now 30 years of the surprise. So they've seen it at the Hilton foundation across so many different kinds of organizations. And I think the concept is, you know. Yeah, depending on the size of the organization, 3 million might be massive or might be relatively small. But the unrestricted nature lets you pick things that can be truly catalytic organizations. But it's a tough question to answer as a CEO in your seat. It's a good question. It is a problem to have to deal with. But you've got to think about innovation. On the one hand, just more delivery of what you do, your core services. But then also the fact that, as you said at the start, norms have been shifting and the policy and advocacy side of this has huge potential and is kind of backsliding at the moment.
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B
Right.
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A
Maybe give people a sense of what is that context, this backsliding that you're. That you're up against as an organization today.
- [19:58]
B
Yeah, I mean, I think generally we're seeing many of the norms that have long characterized, you know, humanitarian assistance and even more widely being undermined. You know, you look at the. Some humanitarian law that, you know, generally governs our work, the need for humanitarian principles throughout, the ability to kind of do so in those ways has really been tested in our world. In particular, humanitarian disarmament, the use of minds in contexts such as Russia's invasion of Ukraine and elsewhere really are creating serious challenges, I think, to the treaty. We've seen several states express an intention to withdraw from the mine ban Treaty, one state from the Cluster Munitions Treaty. And that's concerning for us. Mag was Co Laurier of the 1997 Nobel Peace Prize for efforts to ban landmines under the Ottawa Treaty. And we've seen an enormous reduction and stigmatization in the use of landmines since the late 90s. And that is being challenged. But equally, it's something that we will fundamentally continue to uphold. And we work pragmatically with states who party or not party to the convention to help communities, but ultimately civilians too often pay the price. And adhering to IHL is something that we, as an organization will stand with.
- [21:06]
A
Right. You can't Just be trying to remove mines. You want to make sure they're not being placed there to begin with given the human costs. And you're right, the norms have been there for some time now. It feels like there was real progress for a period and now we're in a very different world. And some of these actors have said, hey, you know, we have the right to use these kinds of weapons that we know really don't discriminate.
- [21:29]
B
Genius civilians and soldiers. Yeah.
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A
And kind of have to get back to that, to that earlier, you know, global conversation that you and others were so successful at generating in the late 90s.
- [21:40]
B
100%. And I think so much of it is just continuing to tell the story of the communities that we interact with who tend. I mean we work in Vietnam, you know, 50 years since the end of conflict. Most of the people who, the 800 staff who worked for us were never alive when the bombs start dropping. And that long term deadly legacy is something that we'll continue to make sure is at the forefront of those debates. Of course there are immediate and understandable pressures that states are facing when it comes to issues of national security and defence. We recognize that. But our lens of looking at this will always be through that civilian protection, gender and. And we'll continue to uphold those, but work practically with states to clear landmines before a child finds them ultimately.
- [22:20]
A
Right. Well, I think the Hilton we're always, you know, in the media and here at Demics we're always looking at the Hilton prize as kind of a sense of where are things going. And I think, because I think the juror, the jury is always looking at what is the zeitgeist and they need to helping to form that. And the fact that they've selected you and that they've put forward this issue I think is a timely question for the world to really pay attention to. Hopefully that spotlight helps you to generate a real discussion and debate on this topic this year.
- [22:47]
B
I hope so. I hope we can use it really responsibly and effectively to highlight those needs. It's important time. Serious, you know, serious discussions obviously, as we just talked about happening and enormous need in communities. So if we can use this platform in any way to protect more civilians, then that's our responsibility to do not just use the money effectively for mag. But as you say, uphold, uphold those, those needs of communities, you know, who are still desperately in need and don't need to be worrying about sending their children to school and that whether they'll get blown up, you know, children are curious. I worry about my children playing on the street and the worst they're going to get is a gray is neat. This is a different, very different set of concerns to so many millions of people around the world and that's what we'll continue to use this, this platform to shine a light on.
- [23:29]
A
Yeah, well congratulations on winning this prize on all the attention it's going to give to you and to the issue importantly and the chance to really think big. Hopefully with this unrestricted prize money. It's been great to learn about the issue and congratulations.
- [23:42]
B
Thank you for having me. Thanks so much.
- [23:48]
A
This has been this week in Global Development. If you enjoyed this episode, don't forget to subscribe using the link in the description to get even more coverage and analysis on the most pressing development issues of the day. Become a Devex Pro member by going to devex.com membership and signing up. Thank you for listening and see you next week.