← This Week in Startups
This Week in Startups
Uber's leadership lessons, AI's disruption, and the power of solo founders with Josh Mohrer | E1911
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- [00:00]
Josh Moore
This whole thing is I've, I've done all of it and I have a lot of pride in that. And part of this, of thinking that this is even feasible and really why I reached out is that you have talked about this of like era of the solopreneur and it could be, you know, there are always brilliant engineer types who would then dabble in the marketing side and put together their own thing. I don't think there's a lot of examples of a marketing or like business side. Exec.
- [00:22]
Jason Calacanis
Exact. Yeah. Doing the code. No, this is, this is going to be the revolution.
- [00:27]
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- [01:18]
Jason Calacanis
All right, everybody, welcome back to this week in Startups. We have an incredible show for you today. I met Josh Moore, gosh, 15 years ago maybe, when he was the first, I believe, GM of Uber in New York City, which was in the first five cities I think Travis launched, and the team over there, he's moved on and become an angel investor, run a syndicate. And today we're going to talk about his new AI startup, which is inspired by this meme that's been going around. Who's going to build the first unicorn with one or two employees? Welcome to the program, Josh.
- [01:55]
Josh Moore
Thank you so much. It's great to be here.
- [01:57]
Jason Calacanis
Yeah. So you were the first GM of New York City, correct?
- [02:02]
Josh Moore
Yeah. So Travis expanded outside of San Francisco. New York was the first spot. And how that would typically work when they were expanding is launchers would go to a city and sort of set up the basic thing there, get the first few drivers, get the first few riders, set up some infrastructure, and then hired a gm. I was actually, I was, I was in there within the first year. There was a team of three who were brought on right before me and it didn't really work out. And all three of them left and they hired a fresh group of three at the end of 2011. And I was the GM from that point on and I heard I Don't.
- [02:38]
Jason Calacanis
Know if this is true, so I'm not trying to take any credit here, but at some point Travis had told me the Chicago, LA and New York heads had all seen him on this Week in Startups, that famous episode from 12 or 13 years ago that you can watch now. Is that true? Did you see the this Week in Startups episode and that's how you became aware?
- [02:58]
Josh Moore
My awareness of Uber was actually. So I used it when they. When they really first launched here, which was like, you know, spring, summer, 2011. I tried it out. I thought it was cool. At the time I was in an E commerce, marketing and ops role. I had a bunch of those over the years. And frankly, I just tried Uber and thought it was really neat. And actually the first time I tried using it was for an airport run at like 4am or so. And it actually didn't work. I tried to request a car. There were no vehicles available. I didn't think much of it. But later that day I got a note from them saying, hey, we saw you tried to use Uber and it didn't work. You know, here's 10 bucks for the next time. Even though that feels like a typical, like, interaction now, at the time, it did not feel typical at all. It was like sort of. Was sort of amazing. I was like, how did you. I didn't even use your. I just opened the app, I looked, I didn't see any cars. I didn't use it. So that was cool. I was like, okay, there's something interesting here. And then a friend of mine, you know, five months later, was like, hey, they're looking for a gm. The job listing was really exciting. It was like unlimited SUV rides. You'll ride around like a European diplomat. And it was just like, at that point, I think like startup equity, you know, employee equity, all that stuff was really not on my radar. Like, I wasn't really educated on that. I was more after something that I knew I would enjoy. I was very interested in an opportunity to sort of be the head of something of kind of like a startup within a startup. And it just sounded like something I would really love coming into work every day. And that is what it was. And so when I applied, I didn't know who Travis was. I knew who Ryan Graves was. When I got to San Francisco, met Travis, of course. And that night, like in the, you know, like after that experience, I looked him up and tried to learn everything I could about him. And that is when I saw, ah.
- [04:48]
Jason Calacanis
You'Re doing your due diligence. Got it.
- [04:50]
Josh Moore
You know, what I found about Travis is that, you know, right away I got to know him. I, I've, I've probably spoken to him on the phone, you know, while I was in the role there. We probably had a hundred phone calls over the five years, maybe a little more. Zero of them were scheduled. This is a guy who is, who, who is so dialed in on the details of everything under him, you know, so there was that aspect of his leadership and also that he really encouraged me to be me and be myself and kind of lean into the way I am and kind of my intensity and the way I go about doing things. He made me feel really good about that, and so it was a really, really amazing experience. So even though he wasn't totally on my radar when I got there, he was my boss and we spoke all the time and it was a real pleasure.
- [05:39]
Jason Calacanis
A lot has been made about his management style and this distributed management style. So putting aside press nonsense, but just looking at from the inside this distributed leadership architecture that he set up, which I think most people would probably think he's doing at cloud kitchens right now, who knows, since he doesn't talk about it and it's very much under the radar, but maybe you could talk about how the edges and individuals had a lot of autonomy and then just generally what was his management style like?
- [06:10]
Josh Moore
Yeah, it was in some ways, like remote. Before there was remote because most of the employees at Uber were not in this, in the San Francisco office. You know, the New York was like a, like a hub. I mean, we had a big office by the end, but it, but it grew more slowly than Uber globally. And so it always had a tight feel. And so I think maintaining the startup feeling on the city level was part of it. And really finding a GM in each place who can be like mini CEO is the way he would talk about it at the time and really represent him and represent Uber when he couldn't be there. So a big part of the job, particularly after the first little while, was dealing with regulators, dealing with the press, a lot of kind of local things. So I think, you know, took a lot of trust. They spent a lot of time finding the right person. I would like to think that in New York they probably had a lot of options. I think in Minneapolis they probably have fewer. As we sort of went down to the smaller cities, it became harder and harder to find those people. But the GM crew, I think, because it was really the best they could find in every city, made for a pretty special group. And the Folks that I'm still in touch with from Uber. Many of them were GMs alongside me in those early days.
- [07:21]
Jason Calacanis
Yeah. So we'll get to your new app in just a moment. Want to ask one or two more questions? New York was one of the most vibrant and challenging markets, if my memory serves me correctly. And I remember one day talking to Travis because I see the headline, de Blasio is going to cap the number of Ubers. And I said, hey, dk, what are we going to do here? And he said, I'll wait for it. And he sent me, like, a screenshot of something, and it was de Blasio's phone number.
- [07:53]
Josh Moore
Yeah, the de Blasio view.
- [07:55]
Jason Calacanis
Right, the de Blasio view. So explain. And de Blasio, I think it turned out, worst mayor in New York history since Dinkins. And that's a pretty low benchmark to hit.
- [08:05]
Josh Moore
I love talking to New Yorkers.
- [08:07]
Jason Calacanis
Well, no, I mean, de Blasio was an incompetent fool. You know. You know, who talks about. Explain the de Blasio relationship and explain your reaction. And where did this idea come from? And when Travis says, hey, I'm assuming Travis came up with this idea or whoever came up with it, you are the gm. Did you come up with that idea? And then how did this go over internally, externally, take us to that moment? Yeah.
- [08:30]
Josh Moore
So if I'm just going to. I just want to set the scene, I'll spend, like, less than a minute on this. But what you have to know about Uber New York, both in the beginning and still now, is that it runs actually a fundamentally different business than what Uber does now everywhere else, which I would call like, ride sharing. Ride sharing being I have excess capacity in my car a few hours a day or a few hours a week, or really whenever I want, and I'll turn on the app and it'll be great. In New York, that system doesn't actually exist. It is the black car system set up by Ed Koch, who is mayor before Dickens. And this was in the 1980s, where, you know, taxis were great for Manhattan, but they needed a system that would work both for kind of executives who wanted pickups at their office, but also folks like us who grew up in the boroughs. And so Uber has always operated within an infrastructure and a rule system that has existed for decades. It was not. It never tried to do the ride sharing, which was the true innovation of Uber. It never tried that in New York. So as a result, from the very beginning, we were kind of, you know, at least from the regulator's standpoint, we were kind of like good little kids who filled out all the forms. Right. And were kind of more responsive to them maybe than the average car base owner that was sort of operating in that system at the time. So it was never the regulators that had a problem. It was the politicians. So there was a few different attempts. De Blasio's first attempt was in, like, early 2015, to try to pass rules that said the city had a right to review app updates. Right. Like, that's a crazy one. We definitely don't want them to look at code. You know, eventually they sort of figured out the way to do it was to limit the growth of supply, so not let any new drivers join the taxi limousine system that would then join Uber. And so it was sort of saying, no more supply. And the challenge with this is that it's actually a death sentence. But it's very hard to make people out in the world understand that. So at this point, we're getting 25,000 new riders every week. We're loading a thousand new drivers every week. Like, we are really going for it. And this law comes out. This is roughly. Or a proposed law in July of 2015 saying no more new cars. And I think to the casual observer, that was like, okay, well, what's the big deal about that? You'll just sort of not at. You have a great business already. It's already quite large. We'll just. You'll just stop adding cars for a bit. The sort of nuance people didn't get, and I'll get to the thing that you asked about in a second, is that actually if you reduce supply, the system becomes unreliable and no one will want to use it anymore. Like, we have to add supply to keep up with demand. So the winning, you know, and we did a bunch of things, we tried to explain it in all different ways. The winning idea came from someone on the comms team who was stationed in New York, and her idea was to have a de Blasio view. So at this point in the app, you'd sort of have a little slider at the bottom that you would choose Uber X, Uber Black, and there is one for de Blasio. And you would go to the de Blasio view, and all the cars on the map would disappear. And it would say, ETA 15 minutes. Because we sort of decided, you know, the ETA is at that point were like two minutes. And that is actually what would happen. It would make a lot of surge pricing. The price would go up. ETAs would go down. It would make the system unreliable. And the whole premise of Uber is a reliable ride, you know, at that. Right. And so it was a big deal. And it was like, you know, 21 days in July that were probably the most intense of my, of my working life. And it was like going on CNBC every day, talking to the, like, newspapers every day, getting them on board. And it was not just me. There was like 50 people who worked really hard to get this done. And I think we just made the case and we won. Like, they pulled it back. They would end up returning in 2018 under a different type of Uber with no Travis, with no me, with no a lot of people. And then they would actually get through some version of those rules. But in the three years between those, I mean, it's a game changer. I think they probably 10x'd in those three years.
- [12:40]
Jason Calacanis
So, yeah, you know, okay, let me.
- [12:44]
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- [13:59]
Jason Calacanis
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- [14:11]
Jason Calacanis
When you look at the recent performance, the question was always, can Uber ever be profitable? Is it always going to be unprofitable? And you're smiling. I'm smiling because in the beginning people don't know the Lincoln Town Car business was wildly profitable. Uber X, well, we're going down market. We're trying to get more people to download the app. Yeah, so there were some incentives and yeah, you're in a dog fight to get drivers. So yeah, you want to give them an extra hundred bucks if they hit X number of rides. But it was very clear that once the habit was formed, it didn't matter if an Uber was 8, 9, 10 or 11 to 90, whatever percent of consumers.
- [14:52]
Josh Moore
Yeah, I think that's right. I mean, I'm obviously so happy for the folks there now and for Dara and for anyone smart enough to still be holding shares, which admittedly I am not. But yeah, I mean, I think they kind of worked it out and it's really wonderful to see. And I use Uber a lot here and it's great, it works great and I don't notice the few bucks and a lot of, you know, here the unit economics, even though we call it UberX because it's that licensed scheme that I talked about earlier and not ride share and Uber is not doing their like excess insurance umbrella because it's not rideshare and the drivers are by and large full time guys. The unit economics are very different in New York and like New York has always been a pretty good business, just like structurally, but, but in the rideshare places where the competition with Lyft and others was particularly, you know, aggressive, it wasn't making much money. I think it was always sort of like, structurally this can make money. We are choosing not to now. So I never really believed that, like it'll never be profitable. It's like there's profit on every ride. It is how Uber chooses to spend that that will change the direction.
- [15:57]
Jason Calacanis
Yeah, it was just so weird to see journalists pile on and just even CNBC talking. As I remember I was on with Deirdre Bosa or something at some point and I just, I said to her, deidre, they did a billion rides. This is when like we were at a billion rides a year or something. I said, did a billion rides, lost a billion dollars, whatever it is. Or you know, lost $4 billion. You do 2 billion rides next year, you raise the prices $2. All of a sudden, you know, this thing is going to be a money printing machine. And of course, here we are. They raise the prices, you know, whatever, 20, 30%, you get the economies of scale, and here we are. And then Lyft, of course, you know, being incompetent, you know, was always the greatest gift I think Uber ever had.
- [16:38]
Josh Moore
Yeah, I mean, they weren't always incompetent, and I don't pay attention that much, but I read, like, headlines about a speak on an earnings call. Like that sent the stock soaring and then back down to earth. Like, that's like, pretty much. And perhaps indicative of general things going on there, but I really have no idea.
- [16:52]
Jason Calacanis
Yeah, no, I just, I. And then finally, surge pricing, you see, it's coming to Wendy's.
- [16:57]
Josh Moore
I did see, finally, you can get.
- [16:59]
Jason Calacanis
A cheap sandwich for twice as much but not wait in line.
- [17:03]
Josh Moore
I mean, I don't. I don't know if you've seen, but they're like, in buses in New York, on the side of buses, it'll be like, this bus never has surge pricing. And like, in taxis, the taxi screens will say, never have surge pricing. It, like, became such a flash point, and I think, like, you know, I think we probably could have done a better job explaining it. I think what someone said to me, the problem with you Uber people is you think everyone has a degree in math and economics. And I think, like, there is some degree of that. We were talking to people the way we wanted to be spoken to. And I think, particularly in those very early years, you know, New Year's Eve, we would do like a math equation on the thing, and people are drunk, and they're like, you Uber guys, I don't know what you're talking about, but I'm going to do it. And then get charged a couple hundred bucks or something they thought would cost 20 bucks. Like, you can understand why people were pissed. And I think it took a couple of years of iterating, but I do think, particularly when it would just show you the rate in the beginning, this. This ride will cost $80. Do you want it? That's probably the end point. That's the best way to do it. Yeah, but it's a thing that people just weren't used to, but are used to it whether they realize it or not. And things like airfare and hotels and restaurants on Valentine's Day and all these sorts of things, so. And TLS, Rift tickets and StubHub generally, I don't think I bought a ticket at face value, despite my best efforts in years. So, I mean, it's perma.
- [18:22]
Jason Calacanis
It's. Right now we're on perma surge pricing for tickets. That cartel has just destroyed it all, you know.
- [18:28]
Josh Moore
Are your kids into Olivia Rodrigo?
- [18:31]
Jason Calacanis
No, they're not particularly into any specific artists, but I mean, it was impossible.
- [18:37]
Josh Moore
To get tickets for that.
- [18:38]
Jason Calacanis
Yeah, my 14 year old's really into Billy Joel. So it was like my favorite artist growing up or one of them. Dire Straits, Billy Joel.
- [18:43]
Josh Moore
About Billy, every month he's doing a gig at the Garden.
- [18:45]
Jason Calacanis
I know. And he's going to end his thing in July, I think. So I'm going to try to take her to one of the final shows and definitely should. If anybody in my audience knows Billy Joel or his non profit or something, I got to do a couple of donations a year. Anyway, somebody put me in touch with that. I would just love to introduce him to my daughter and be a hero and just say thank you to him for 30 seconds, take a quick selfie and get the hell out of there. But maybe I could, you know, donate to his. He's got to have a charity for something.
- [19:10]
Josh Moore
I bet you've gotten good dad stuff over the years, like for the kids. They probably think you're all right.
- [19:15]
Jason Calacanis
You know, My daughters think I'm cool. Yeah. They also make fun of me because of the podcast. They're like, oh, you're doing your podcast, right? And so I started doing a Daddy Daughter podcast with my 28 year olds. Yeah, it's pretty funny. If you can find the Daddy Daughter podcast, there's one episode out on Spotify right now, but I haven't tweeted it or anything. I just put it out there just.
- [19:35]
Josh Moore
To go tell my kids that. Or I'll be buying a second and third, you know, microphone pretty soon.
- [19:39]
Jason Calacanis
You know what my philosophy of the debt for the Daddy Daughter podcast was to just take out my phone, put on the voice recorder and then ask them about one topic, school, being twins, food, whatever. And then I just hold the iPhone towards whoever's talking and I'm like training them to not over talk over each other. And Great. All right, listen. You are watching this AI craziness happen. You've worked at one of the great startups in history and you decide, I want to create my own startup, but I want to do it with this. I want to actually write the code or be the developer and you email me. And I was like, well, that's rad. Yeah, build the product yourself. Cool. So why don't you tell us a little bit about your philosophy of building this startup wave and AI note taking app and then just showed us.
- [20:25]
Josh Moore
Yeah, sure. I mean, you know, I've always been developer adjacent, no one's ever paid me to code before. But working at startups, particularly in like E commerce, not like a little bit at Uber, but mostly the other jobs that I've kind of done over the years, I've been near engineers and I think I've always had a bit of a like edge envy. And the reason for that is I always felt like they are the ones with their hands on the thing, doing the thing. And particularly in startups and there's not that many people and everyone is rather self driven, there's decision making there about what to build, how to build it that I always have kind of envied. Like I can weigh in, I can write a memo, whatever, but actually doing it, you know, is a different thing. And so I've taken a bunch of like, you know, udemy classes, like YouTube things over the years and I've had little like little increments of getting somewhere but really never actually getting there. It's a cliche, but when ChatGPT, the very first one, this original in November 2022 came out, the first thing I started doing is asking questions about the code. Like, hey, I'm trying to make a website in NextJS, how does this work? And found that it really worked well for me as a question and answer, how does this work? How do I do it? And it'll answer right away a bunch of questions I was probably asking to engineers that I worked with. You know, maybe one a day or one a week. Now I can do like one a minute and just start like really mainlining information. And not only that, but I also found that it actually could help me write the code itself. Like not just teach me, but actually pair with me and I can kind of guide it. You know, like engineering is taking a problem and breaking it up into the tiniest increments and solving each increment and putting it together and Right. And so it was sort of like, okay, this thing can help me like build magical things. And so I'll put a pin in that, you know, for one second like around this time, you know, AI, it's a big AI moment. I was kind of like into deep learning and learning about that five or 10 years ago and I always sort of thought it would like they'll never actually call this AI. It's Deep. But anyway, like AI is the thing in this AI era, I found there's sort of all these demos coming out all the time, very cool demos, but there's many of them, or most of them are either web based or they're sort of demo ish in nature. Like install this docker container and then run this like python script and then it'll do the magic thing. There's like all these ways to like very sort of artificially generate the like magic in an environment. But like I believe that life's most important moments happen away from your desk and that most normals are not at a computer all day and they're not on Twitter and reading about AI and trying the demos and it's like, what is the AI that my 70 year old dad is going to use? You know? And so there is no. And similarly, there's no shortage of ways even then, but especially now, there's no shortage of ways to record your zoom and record your meet and record your, you know, hangout and teams and all this. But like just very little for the real world. That's more than just a demo, a proof of concept. Like, what would it look like if I made a, an audio recording app and just like got feedback and just started adding features that people say and sort of intuiting things like, huh, it seems like if I do all the like transcription on the phone, it'll take too long. Like what do I do? Like, oh, servers. Like, didn't really know about that. Like I knew the word but I didn't really know how it worked. Oh, cloud functions. I'll learn how to do that. And so it's sort of been like a walkabout of trying to figure stuff out with brute force. I have two kids, I have like a semi busy life with them. I love working remotely. And so the idea was like, okay, like, wouldn't it be fun to just see how far can I get this on my own before, you know, without, without hiring, you know, I, I could easily drive this off the rails, hire a bunch of people, maybe raise money, maybe not like do a whole thing, but like what about just like tying my hands and like just saying I'll only do what I can do personally. And so I made a few different little like mini apps and this is the one that people were interested in. I think the real clicking point for me was when my dad brought it to a doctor's appointment and recorded it and then got a summary of what was discussed and that that was much deeper just in the moment. Things happen, and it's good to record. And so, yeah, it was like, okay, like, let me do audio recording. And then I added phone call. So you can kind of like make a phone call through the app and it records the phone call. Or maybe I'll import podcasts. I could import you into the app and get a summary there. Like, okay, people want to share out of the app. How should we do it? We'll share to Notion and we'll share to, like, a web URL. And it just sort of like, really just kind of having a good time and it. And I like to say, like, skyscrapers look like holes in the ground for a very long time, and then suddenly they start to shoot up. And not that this will be a skyscraper, but I have found, like, it started really small, and people in my life were like, oh, it's Josh's little, like, retirement project. I was like, well, actually, like, I'm taking this really seriously and I'm working full time on it. And people who live with me know that I'm, like, going Josh Moore style on this. Like, I'm just turning it up to 12 and, like, hammering on this until it's good enough. And found some friends who would humor me and, like, try it and just sort of polish and polish and, you know, rebuild and rebuild and rebuild until it kind of. It kind of works. And now it's. The subscriber volume is, like, roughly doubling every month. It's really kind of insane. And the most exciting thing I think I've ever done, even more than Uber, because it's like, it's just me. It's like me versus the world. And I have all these customers, and if they chat in the app, it goes to my phone. It's just like a very. There is, for the first time, nothing standing between me and consumers of the thing that I'm building. And that is, for me, at this point in my life, a very good feeling and something that I'm really enjoying.
- [26:15]
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- [26:56]
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- [27:10]
Jason Calacanis
Let's demo it. Let's take a look at what you built here.
- [27:12]
Josh Moore
Yeah, and if you're listening at home and not seeing the video, basically you're looking at a screen that says all recordings, all waves. And each row is sort of like in a traditional Apple style with summary. So I'll just start to record and this could be I am doing a brain dump or I'm in a meeting. I actually, in preparation for this podcast, I was taking a walk somewhere and I recorded about 10 minutes of myself giving my bio and then at the end got a summary of that and sent it over to you guys. So I've been speaking for about. It'll be almost about 30 seconds. If you're watching the video, you see like a, like an indicator wave that there is sound coming out. And when I'm done, I'll just press stop and it'll transcribe this in the cloud rather quickly and then it will summarize it. And so there is the transcription right there. And then we'll probably have a summary in about 10 or 15 seconds. This will be like GPT4 style. So it's up. The speaker discusses their use of recording feature, possibly within an app or device or capture their thoughts or conduct a brain dump. The summary goes on a bit. It's on the screen now if you want to check out the video. But you know, that was a 22nd. And I can listen to it. I can share it either in a URL or a notion or I can do some changes to the format or I could even change the language. Let's say I want to send this to someone and you know, in Italian it'll reprocess the summary and transcription in a, you know, in Italian. So, you know, what are people using this for? It is a lot of meetings. Meetings not on Zoom, but sort of in their office. I have a guy recording all his sermons at church. So here is the summary that I just did a second ago in. It's in Italian now, if that's useful. So that's it and basically just to.
- [29:06]
Jason Calacanis
Give you some phone call idea seems like the killer one. Is that what people are buying it for? Because I know sometimes you want to record a call and you know, you just want to make a quick phone call, record it and share it and then obviously depending on the state you're in, could be two party consent, could be one party consent. I remember in New York, as a journalist, I believe it was one party consent so we could record calls without a problem. We're talking to people.
- [29:30]
Josh Moore
Yeah. And look, it should go without saying that anyone using this anywhere should be be aware of the local laws. And it is not intended to be a secret. So for recording phone calls, you know, you can't actually like in the phone app, if you're using the phone app on your iPhone, there isn't actually a way to record a phone call. So what this does is it's a redirect. First you basically verify your phone number so that we know that it's you. And then you make a call through the app. And what that does is it calls you first, you pick up and it says now connecting and a call the other recipient with, with your phone number as the id. So to them it feels like a normal phone call and to you they redirect. The phone feature is, is a big one. It's not most of the, of the action. I think it's poorly marketed and frankly a bit clunky. People will make a phone call and then press the red button. Like, and why not? Like the red button is right there. So there's like.
- [30:27]
Jason Calacanis
And then they'll stop the call by hitting the red button.
- [30:30]
Josh Moore
That's right. It all kind of screwed up. So, you know, I'm doing roughly at this point about 15,000 minutes a day. And I'd say, you know, 500 of them are phone minutes. And that's. So it's still pretty small, but it is growing as a segment faster than the, than the overall thing. So it's sort of like when we started UberX like, you know, we're still, we still love the main Uber, but we introduced something new because people might want to try that. And then, you know, you could put it into folders and there's all sorts of settings you can do and all this and that's it.
- [30:59]
Jason Calacanis
And you got 200 people to pay for this already and you're at 100,000 in ARR already.
- [31:04]
Josh Moore
Yeah, that's when I pinged you last week. So I'm actually at 130arr now. And I have about 500 paid subscribers. It is roughly doubling every month. So the numbers are feeling fun and silly.
- [31:18]
Jason Calacanis
Almost able to cover your salary. I mean a couple more doublings and you hired a developer or if you are using, you know, non US developers, you've already hired two or three.
- [31:29]
Josh Moore
So congratulations, you know, to be honest, of all the parts of it. And again, I came up in a marketing and ops background. I started selling on eBay in 1998 from a computer at my high school in a computer science seminar that I wasn't paying attention to. So I sort of like right turned when I was on the computer engineer path and sort of right turned into marketing. But I think this actually might be where I'm going to be for the long haul. So I don't know that I'm going to hire someone. I have so far every bit of code like this whole thing is I've, I've done all of it and I have a lot of pride in that. And part of this, of thinking that this is even feasible and really why I reached out is that you have.
- [32:09]
Jason Calacanis
Talked about this of like yeah, many times.
- [32:12]
Josh Moore
Era of the solopreneur and it could be, you know, there are always brilliant engineered types who would then dabble in the marketing side and put together their own thing. I don't think there's a lot of examples of a marketing or like business side exec.
- [32:25]
Jason Calacanis
Yeah, doing the code. No, this is going to be the revolution is if a business person doesn't have to find the developer, they can. And this did happen with Figma, Envision, Balsamiq. Before that you'd have a business person learn how to make mockups, then they learned to make clickable mockups, then they did webflow or bubble, whatever and they learned how to do a no code solution. And now, hey, here we are dipping into actual code. And in your estimation, how many months have you been coding with this?
- [32:58]
Josh Moore
So I started, I showed the first demo to someone who gave me real positive feedback I'll never forget at the end of April.
- [33:04]
Jason Calacanis
Perfect. So you're 10 months in. In the 10 months, how have the co pilots advanced, if at all? And what do you see in terms of, you know, things you tried to do 10 months ago that maybe did or didn't work and they might be working now or just how refined they are? I don't know if you're using Replit or GitHub, Copilot, what are you, what are you using as a stack and then how has it advanced?
- [33:25]
Josh Moore
Yeah, so I mean I Think there's this idea that like I will flow like electricity. And that metaphor did not resonate with me until the last couple of years because it really, that that is actually the perfect metaphor and it does flow like electricity. So it's in the chat apps, but it's also now wired into your VS code. There's a GitHub version, there's the, just the standard LLM from OpenAI that kind of feeds in. There's all these good ways to do it. So I think one big change is both the models have gotten better. I started doing this on GPT 3.5 and there have been a few different iterations of GPT 4. The longer windows, like you being able to put more information into the chat or into whatever you're using is a big one that actually makes this app possible. I could drop two hours or three hours or four hours of spoken audio as language into the thing and it'll work. Whereas before I'd have to like chunk it up. So there have been a bunch of improvements on the models themselves and as you pointed out, you know, it's, it's better the, the electricity is flowing more now. So it's in your VS code, it's in your, it's, it's really everywhere. It's in my email, it's in the app. So now it's starting to get to all the places and you know, it's, it does make things easier, but I think that's sort of the vision. It's, it's not like you're going to wake up and the robot is going to make you eggs for breakfast. It's more that AI can touch your life in a hundred different ways and make it marginally easier. And really that is how computers have been for years and decades. But it's the next step of that if it's just like it being everywhere, it guessing the next word. It's spell checking you now it's summarizing your email. And I don't know if you saw.
- [35:02]
Jason Calacanis
Raoul from Superhuman, what he released yesterday, but now he's got Superhuman pre writing replies to your emails as they come in. So when you open your email box, it says, oh, hey Josh, we'd love for you to do a keynote at, you know, whatever conference, Web Developer Conference 2424. And it has interested, not interested, tell me more or something. And so you hit like interested. It's like, oh, that sounds great. And it, but it's doing it based on how you've responded to those previous emails before. So it's now created an LLM. So if you frequently say, you know what, I only do paid speaking gigs, please talk to Jamie Kalacanis, my brother, who manages that for me. You know, he cc'd above it. We'll do that.
- [35:48]
Josh Moore
Right? It's awesome.
- [35:49]
Jason Calacanis
So here we go. And did you see the note yesterday about which company was it that did a Klarna? Oh yeah, it was Klarna. Explain that.
- [35:59]
Josh Moore
I mean, you know, I think that. So one of the original ideas that I didn't do because I wanted to do Wave was to try to. So it's pretty obvious, like customer support is such a. It's been an obvious use case since the beginning. But you would expect big companies to work it out before small ones. One idea was like do an agent on top of Shopify. And I had something working where you could like chat with it, like, where's my order? It's like, which of these orders that are you talking about? Like that, you know, that you placed over the last year. Like just, you know, giving it enough information that it could do that. And then I just sort of like doing this instead. But I think the customer support one totally, like it's going to be so many questions are just repeats. Like is just the art of answering the same 30 things again and again but with fresh energy. And I think, you know, that's a layup for this stuff.
- [36:51]
Jason Calacanis
I think according to the statistics it was getting, the AI based customer support was getting higher ratings than the humans and the calls went from like 11 minutes to three. So not only was it replacing the humans, it was doing a better job and solving people's problems in less time.
- [37:12]
Josh Moore
It's like it always spells right, it's, it's, it's awake all the time. So I'm going to be moved like wave right now. If you chat support in the app, it goes to me, it push notification on my phone or it like rings on my computer. And that's been invaluable because talking to people is how I know about bugs and about what they want. But there will be a point where the system that I use has an AI version where it looks at everything you've ever said and it starts to generate answers. And you could build out some actions like reprocess a recording. I could give it that sort of, that ability. But I'm going to do that because I would much rather pay, you know, Intercom a dollar a ticket than hire someone. Not just because the quality might be better, but because it's just low drama. You know, like, it's just. It's. It's a simpler thing. I don't. I think part of the moment for me in my life and the itch that I'm. That I'm scratching, and I know most people don't operate this way, but it's like there is something truly liberating about depending on no one.
- [38:07]
Jason Calacanis
Yeah, totally.
- [38:09]
Josh Moore
I love the teams that I've built. I've loved. I've, like, loved working with folks, and I know I'll do that again. But for this moment in my life, it's a. It's a perfect fit to just go solo. And that even means support. So it'll be me or the robots. I think for a while.
- [38:23]
Jason Calacanis
I think that was Joe Rogan's, like, original thing. He loved about doing his podcast. He said, I do my podcast with one person. I just turn on the cameras, I record it, I don't edit it. So he specifically was like, we're just not going to edit this thing. We're just going to publish it as is. You like it, you don't. I'm going to read the ads live. Done. I mean, now, of course, it's gotten more sophisticated since then.
- [38:41]
Josh Moore
Yeah. And I think, you know, to your point, you know, this is not a big trend yet, but I. I do kind of think you'll see more artisanship on the Internet. You know, I think you need big companies for certain things, but I think the ability to kind of home grow something, put it out into the world with a small group of people, it's just never been easier. And not just AI, but all the tooling for building things is better. Like, it's easier to make apps. This wasn't the first time in my life I thought, boy, I'd like to learn how to make apps. Like, I tried in 2009. Way too hard, way too hard. I tried in 2015, getting better, but still couldn't do it. And now I'm doing it now. And part of that, it's not just the AI, it's that the frameworks and the tooling and the languages and documentation and the communities on the Internet that work with that stuff have exploded. So that it's also easier to find people doing this, you know, something that's kind of cool. Like, engineering world changes fast. You know, the way you might write an iPhone app will change year to year, the different sort of inputs there. So the AI models don't always have a very good grasp on that because they're, you know, they might have only learned up to last April and things have happened since then. But there's a community of people who do this stuff for real. And getting involved with that has been really fun too. Just like being in the engineer world and kind of where do you hang.
- [40:00]
Jason Calacanis
Out with those folks online? Is it discords? Is it stack overflow? Is it hacker news?
- [40:05]
Josh Moore
It's Twitter. I mean, I've read hacker news for years, but it's mostly Twitter. I mean, YouTube a bit too, but it's mostly Twitter. And I was saying to my wife yesterday, it's a little bit like getting into a really awesome show at season five. So you're watching season one and two, you don't have to wait for season three. It's already out there. That's season four. And so like the things, you know, different technologies that have come out over the last couple of years, I at times run into problems that those technologies solve and have to wait. I'm like, I have this problem. And they're like, oh yes, this thing that like the react people released this year, we'll fix that. I'm like, excellent. So it's like I'm in super fast mode with that, which is exciting.
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Jason Calacanis
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- [41:39]
Jason Calacanis
What percentage of non developers do you think will be able to pick this up? So if developers are 1% of the population, probably something like that. How many of the other 99%? How many percentage points do you think? Let's call it in three years, three years time we'll be able to do what you're doing right now.
- [41:58]
Josh Moore
I think the numbers might still be small, but the each person who does it can, can do more. I mean, I think what is important. I don't want to leave anyone with the impression that we're at a spot now or frankly that I think will ever be at a spot. Where you'll just say, like, make me an app that does these things and it outputs a perfect thing. Like, that's not. There's a whole bunch of reasons why that is technically unlikely. It's more about dividing the thing into a million parts and having it solve each part. But I think it's certainly a force multiplier. It's, it's. For me, it's been a zero to one because I wasn't an engineer and I suppose now I am. So the number will go up. It'll make. I think if you're a great engineer, it can make you a lot better. Yeah.
- [42:38]
Jason Calacanis
Make you. Make you a hero, a superhero. Yeah, for sure.
- [42:41]
Josh Moore
I think ChatGPT LLMs generally, which are sort of like, you could think of them as like fully synthesized views of the Internet, you know, you're not necessarily going to learn something that you couldn't learn on a webpage if you read and had tons of time. So it just really makes learning generally more, you know, easier. I was doing some ice skating and my kid was like, who invented ice skating? It's like, I don't know. What did dads do before Chat GPT? I got this from you too. I put it on in the car the other day.
- [43:08]
Jason Calacanis
Yes. For people who don't know what we're talking about, here is ChatGPT4's app has a conversation mode and then the iPhone 15 has a smart button on the side here where you're an action button. I don't know what they call it, but anyway, you can map that button to something. I mapped it to open up chat GPT4 and open up the voice dialogue. So when my phone is in the cradle while I'm driving safely on autopilot in my Model Y, I could just press that button. It comes up and then I start talking to it. And for history. It's unbelievable to sit there with your daughters and talk about history.
- [43:42]
Josh Moore
Perfect. Perfect. Where did ice skating come from? It's like, great. There's actually a really bunch of really good stories about that and you can learn anything. And so that's magic. You know, my, my 7 year old will say they just. Can you look it up on the, you know, just sort of look it up. Taking for granted that that's a thing, but this is like even one level beyond that. It's like, let's just.
- [44:01]
Jason Calacanis
You and I are part of the generation that remembers the time before Internet. So when you were born in 1980 or so I'm guessing which year? 1982. 82.
- [44:10]
Josh Moore
So you brought in 82.
- [44:12]
Jason Calacanis
That's when dial up started. 3001200 watt modems. And so when you were 10 years old in 1992, dial up was in full swing. 5 bucks an hour, 3 bucks an hour. And then you remember the Internet when you were 15 or 20 happening. But you do remember the time before that, right?
- [44:31]
Josh Moore
Oh yeah. I mean, shows that are set, that are on at a certain time, you know.
- [44:35]
Jason Calacanis
Yes.
- [44:36]
Josh Moore
Having four channels to watch. I don't have cable, just like cbs, NBC, fox, abc. That's it. You know, going to the video store, buying CDs, buying like records and cassette tapes.
- [44:48]
Jason Calacanis
Magazines.
- [44:49]
Josh Moore
Like magazines.
- [44:50]
Jason Calacanis
Having a magazine subscription, it's a whole different thing.
- [44:53]
Josh Moore
And I think it's a more exciting time. I'm glad my kids can have it here.
- [44:57]
Jason Calacanis
Think about this. Then there was Gen Z and Millennials. They only remember the online world. Now there's our kids who will only remember AI. Right. The Chat GPT Generation. Generation GPT. This generation, I'm going to name them Generation AI. Generative. Generative AI. This is Gen AI, the generation. I have now dubbed it that. And that's how it will be. So the gen AI generation, they are only going to know, talking to LLMs, you know, having it write their papers, you know, having it format data for them. I mean, it's just their minds are going to be different. They're just going to be formed in a different way that talking to a computer and working in collaboration with a computer, it's not like us working with a hammer and a nail for them. It's going to be like working with a robot next to them. And then there'll be. The next generation will be Generation Robot and that generation, the C3PO generation. They're going to be insane because they're going to have Optimus, you know, Elon or Humane's robot, and they're going to grow up with one of them in their house. Now that's going to take another 15 years. 10. 15 years, but that will happen. And then imagine you grew up with a robot.
- [46:09]
Josh Moore
Yeah. You know, before my, my older daughter was born in 2014, I used to say it sort of as a joke, like she'll never learn how to drive and she'll never go to college. Like those will be two things that, you know, the cars will drive. Nailed it. And the college will be on YouTube, you know, or something like that. And the reality is, as she is about to turn 10, like I think she probably will both have a driver's license and go to College. So things play out maybe slower than I thought, but I do think at some timescale, like, driving. Certainly not. Maybe a little sooner for you guys than out here, but, like, the driving thing seems like pretty much a done deal. But people still go to universities to learn things, at least for now. And so. Yeah, I don't know, but I absolutely agree. Like, it's a totally different thing. And. And it reframes what you have to know, you know, Do I have to remember history? Like, are all the. You know, is it the same to be able to look something up? Is that as good as knowing something? Maybe it sort of just reframes that. Like, my kids learn math, a lot of it. And they. And they. And, like, reading is a focus in their school. But, you know, when my fourth grader writes an essay, like, she has a school laptop and writes in Google Docs and her teachers turn off spell check and grammar check when they're wr. And then they turn it back on after and read, like, comments. They write comments in line like, boy, that's different. I mean, that's really different. And it's. And it's great because it's more in line with the world.
- [47:38]
Jason Calacanis
So I, you know, I think they should have. They should let the kids work on their computer. Sounds like a great strategy there. And then I believe all the testing that occurs and all the paper writing should occur in a proctored room with pens and papers, just so your brain can kind of do both things. Like, I remember we had computers towards the, you know, in high school and then in college, but I took a mechanical drawing class, and I love mechanical drawing. You had all these different tools. You had a drafting desk, and you pin your paper to it, and you had grid paper to wrap. And my brain is still, like, loves that concept. Right? So it's kind of like painting or, you know, you know, cooking or whatever. Yeah, sure. You could have your. You know, we have a gadget that makes, like, an egg sandwich. It's pretty hilarious. You put, like, two English muffins into this, like, stackable thing. Girls love it. But you got to also learn how to make a perfect omelet. French omelette. Like, teach your kids how to make a French omelette. Perfect, Josh. Amazing. Where can people download this and give you a couple shackles for it and keep your progress going?
- [48:46]
Josh Moore
You can find it in the App store if you search for wave AI.
- [48:49]
Jason Calacanis
Wave AI. Now, not raising funding wouldn't have anything to do with the funding.
- [48:53]
Josh Moore
I don't think so. Yeah, no, I Mean, I don't. I don't take a salary. I'm just kind of trying to grow this because I can. I think taking funding means. Well, I'll just leave on the last note that one of the magic elements of working alone is that the bar for success is just, practically speaking, much lower. Like, for example, if I. If I sort of socialize to friends, like, if I can get this to a 100k MRR like monthly recurring revenue, that I would do that as such an outsized success, it would more than cover my life. I would like for venture skill that's like, that's a failure. So it's sort of like I'm keeping the bar low for myself because I don't want to work with other people for now. I want to do this alone. And so it's. Yeah. And the website is WaveApp AI, though it's going to be wave co probably by the time this is out.
- [49:38]
Jason Calacanis
So, you know, before this comes out. Get a tech domain. That's the new hotness, is it dot tech? You should take a look at it because I just got a couple of good domain names for 12 bucks. And that kid was making that little robot rabbit device that took over ces. He was on the pod, he's using a tech. A lot of people are starting to grab linkage.
- [49:57]
Josh Moore
Yeah, AI has been a huge improvement.
- [49:59]
Jason Calacanis
Forget it. Those have all been. I get 10 people emailing me a month asking me to buy their AI collections, and I'm like, yeah, not for me.
- [50:06]
Josh Moore
Interesting. I'm a dot com guy. But I'll settle for dot co.
- [50:09]
Jason Calacanis
I mean, I have inside.com, i own 20 dot com for a while. I sold dot com.
- [50:13]
Josh Moore
You have some serious domainage. You know, I have.
- [50:16]
Jason Calacanis
Actually, the one I really want to develop is annotated dot com. So I had this idea about creating an annotation standard. And when we were doing Engadget, these things, like, people would write comments, but I was like, you know, I want to be able to highlight a sentence at the New York Times or on Engadget, right? Mouse click, and then put a comment there and have it live on the web page for other people who have the notepad on. And then I want to be able to share it. So I grab this sentence from the New York Times, I annotate it, and then it makes a landing page, you know, like a little bitly kind of thing. And it just says here, I took that paragraph and then I write my comment under it. And then I can share that with people. So I'm just taking a small portion of something or I take a YouTube video or a clip. So I take a clip from Larry David and I say, I really like the lighting of this shot. And then I say, just give me like, seconds 27 to 45. And, you know, just. You set it up so it can only take 10 seconds of a video.
- [51:07]
Josh Moore
That's a really cool idea. Man, are you busy?
- [51:09]
Jason Calacanis
I'm pretty busy. You know, the lifestyle business, the billion dollar lifestyle business, it's here. I think you're tip of the spear, my friend Phil Kaplan. I don't know if you know Phil, who did Distro kid before that company, Very famous guy.
- [51:21]
Josh Moore
I used Distrokid. I'm a. I'm a.
- [51:25]
Jason Calacanis
So Distrokid is the. Is the. Is the billion dollar solo founder that nobody knows about. So it's been done already, I think, by him. But, you know, these. This idea is going to be there, and I think this is like the future of employment is make something bespoke and amazing. Like maybe you like sourdough bread, right? I'm just picking something crazy and you make an app for Sourdough bread. Now, I would never fund an app as an investor for sourdough bread. That's not going to get to a billion dollars in revenue. That's not going to be Uber or Robinhood or Com. But the sourdough bread App could have 100,000 members easily around the world who are obsessed with sourdough and bread making and charge 10 bucks a month. 10,000 people. I don't know how many kids you get.
- [52:09]
Josh Moore
That's really how the Internet should work. That's like the promise of the Internet. I think it's being able to just do your thing, get out there, get.
- [52:16]
Jason Calacanis
The distribution bread baking app. You couldn't get a developer to work on it, but if you are the baker and you learn how to code and now you've got this bread baking app and it's 100 bucks a year, 10 bucks a month, man. There's 10,000 people who sign up for that, and it's going to make a lot more than your bakery.
- [52:31]
Josh Moore
And the bread will probably be better than what you get at the supermarket.
- [52:34]
Jason Calacanis
100%.
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- [52:35]
Jason Calacanis
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- [52:36]
Josh Moore
It's an exciting time, and I appreciate it.
- [52:38]
Jason Calacanis
Exciting time. Great time to be alive. All right, brother, I'll talk to you soon. And everybody go download the app and play with it. Give them some customer support requests. Oh, the one I have for you.
- [52:47]
Josh Moore
Yes, please.
- [52:48]
Jason Calacanis
Anthony at Squarespace created a Note taking app that I loved, was addicted to for a long time. You would open the note taking app, you type your note and you'd swipe up and the note would disappear. There was nothing in the app. The app was just empty. It was a piece of paper. And then it would email you whatever you wrote in it.
- [53:07]
Josh Moore
That's pretty good.
- [53:08]
Jason Calacanis
It was pretty genius. So with yours, if. Imagine if every time you saved it, it emailed you the transcript and everything. Now you got it in your email or it put it into a slack room, boom with your notes or made a notion page automatically. You said you had Notion integration or Coda. Integration can do.
- [53:23]
Josh Moore
You can share to Notion. It does all the like formatting, which is actually not easy, but I.
- [53:28]
Jason Calacanis
No, no, it should be automatic.
- [53:29]
Josh Moore
So you mean just like every single one just goes?
- [53:32]
Jason Calacanis
Absolutely, absolutely. It should just put it into notion, you tell it which group you want to put it in and it. Or it just makes its own wave AI1 and you just boop.
- [53:42]
Josh Moore
Right now you have a choice of making your own. But the idea of having things automatically share every time is a good idea. I don't do that yet.
- [53:49]
Jason Calacanis
That's a good one because then if I put it there, then I get all the features of Notion for free. Or in my case, I love Coda too. So we use both of those. I suggest looking at Coda too. It's equally as good and they each have different specialities. But man, if they, if it went to both places. Now I've got two backups and I can edit them, I can share them and then there's all kinds of features there, you know, like database features or whatever. I could use them. Kick ass job.
- [54:16]
Josh Moore
This is the moment that I relish being alone because if I had a bunch of people there'd be a discussion. Should we do the JSON idea about the email? Oh, like let's write a memo about it, let's talk about it for a while, let's think of it, let's debate. Oh, you don't want to do it. This is like should I do it? I'm going to do it. And that's it.
- [54:31]
Jason Calacanis
I mean the notion thing is and coda, those two apps are all the kids in college, my understanding is, are using these now. So they kind of create their own personal space and they just keep all their there really interesting. And then they added AI to all those and so yeah, it's pretty cool. All right everybody, we'll see you next time on this week in startups. If you want to see our AI demos, including this one this week in startups.com AI Every Monday, Sandeep Madra and I do our AI thing and listen. If you listen to the show for so long and you got to the end of this, go write a goddamn review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, any of those places, or put a comment on the YouTube, give me a thumbs up, subscribe all that stuff. I haven't begged for that in about 11 years on this podcast, but I'm supposed to. So here's your insert begging for likes and whatever. See you all next time. Bye.