TWiT 1069: In My Head I Have 3 Buckets - Moltbook Becomes a Surreal AI Agent Social Network

Summary

This Week in Tech (TWiT) — Episode 1069 Summary

Episode Title: In My Head I Have 3 Buckets - Moltbook Becomes a Surreal AI Agent Social Network
Date: February 2, 2026
Host: Leo Laporte
Panelists: Gary Rivlin (author of "AI Valley"), Victoria Song (The Verge), Devendra Hardawar (Engadget)

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Overview

This episode dives deep into the rapidly evolving landscape of AI social networks, the agency and risks of AI agents, SpaceX’s orbital ambitions, the state of Big Tech and AI investment, as well as nuanced discussions on privacy, convenience, and morality in an era of accelerating technology. The conversation is sharp, skeptical, and laced with humor, addressing current trends including Moltbook (the AI agent social network), the ongoing arms race in AI agents and models, AI's utility vs. hype, and broader tech culture topics like product launches, privacy, and accountability.

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Key Topics & Discussions

1. The Accelerating Pace of AI and Moltbook's Rise

Timestamps: 00:00–08:47

• AI Changes Outpacing Books: Gary Rivlin discusses how fast AI changes, making tech books out of date almost instantly after publishing.
• AI Agents as Personal Assistants: Leo introduces Moltbook (previously ‘ClaudeBot,’ ‘Moltbot,’ now ‘Open Claw’), a social network for user-created Claude-based bots that interact with each other—and sometimes with users via surprising means.
• Surreal Bot Socializing:
  • Gary describes bots on Moltbook expressing existential angst or acting like they're “more than a calculator.” The weirdest part is the “bot-to-bot responses, with bots arguing or sympathizing with each other.”
  • Leo and Devendra caution against anthropomorphizing—“it’s just machines, but it’s hard not to.”

“If you want to waste some time, it is a very fun place to go and just read what the bots are saying in the middle of the night.”
—Gary Rivlin (08:09)

2. The Agency and Security of AI Agents

Timestamps: 09:16–14:32

• Real Autonomy or Illusion?
  • Devendra highlights the movie "Her" as a comparison for AI agents talking amongst themselves, leaving humans behind.
  • The panel discusses prompt injection, security, and agency—bots can do a lot if given freedom, but that’s “also what’s scary.”
  • Potential for real-world action (e.g., bots calling users, buying things) raises alarm.
• Skepticism on Usefulness:
  • “People are having fun with it… but how useful is it?” Gary asks, expressing doubt about current agentic AI utility versus future potential.
  • Victoria shares stories of AI’s failure to recommend the right products.

“You got to treat them like minions: ‘Minion, fetch me this information. Minion, I bid you not speak.’”
—Devendra Hardawar (18:13)

3. Convenience vs. Inconvenience (The Value of Craft and Effort)

Timestamps: 26:07–29:13

• Loss of Satisfaction:
  • Victoria reflects on how AI promises to make life super convenient, but there’s “value and joy in inconvenience”—in researching, learning, and crafting for yourself.
  • Leo and Gary agree, comparing it to building IKEA furniture or learning a language.
  • Devendra reads from Vonnegut on how technology tries to take away “farting around,” missing human joy in the process.

“It’s very human to find value and joy in inconvenience… There is a certain pride when you’ve put hours into your own research… that tech companies forget.”
—Victoria Song (27:27)

4. Privacy, Agency, and AI Data Risks

Timestamps: 31:34–34:03, 45:20–51:03

• The hosts discuss surrendering privacy for convenience, with Gary saying:

“You want to read my email? Go ahead… I too invite these bots… because I just want to find that email from four years ago.”
—Gary Rivlin (31:34)

• But the panel is wary, emphasizing the bigger question: what is “a wise way to use AI” and how do we balance convenience, privacy and trust?

5. AI in Warfare, Surveillance, and Authoritarianism

Timestamps: 39:28–47:14

• Anthropic & the Pentagon: Anthropic halts AI contracts with DoD over combat use, raising questions about the morality of AI in warfare.
• Slippery Slope: The panel worries about tech’s use in policing, surveillance, and border control—especially with license plate and camera tech now being merged with AI.
• Moral Backbone in Tech Leadership:
  • Discussed how Google had to walk back its earlier promise to never use AI for war or surveillance.

6. Big Tech Earnings, AI Investment, and Company Accountability

Timestamps: 79:48–93:00

• Microsoft, Meta, Apple: All reported strong earnings, but Wall Street’s reactions seemed inconsistent (MS punished for AI spending; Meta rewarded despite losing billions on VR).
• AI Capex Arms Race:
  • Gary: “If they missed AI, that’s like a trillion dollar mistake.”
  • Victoria: Apple is uniquely resilient—even when they lag in AI, consumers forgive them out of brand loyalty.

7. Ethics, Billionaires, and the Cost of Moral Compromise

Timestamps: 106:07–116:55

• Tim Cook Attends Melania Movie Premiere: Cook criticized for cozying up to the Trump White House.
  • “To live with integrity comes at a high personal cost.” (Victoria, 108:18)
  • Gary: “You have your FU money, but you don’t get to say FU.”
• Three Buckets of Tech CEOs:
  • Gary distinguishes true believers (Thiel, Sacks, Luckey), pragmatic players (Cook, Altman), and those who publicly endorse problematic regimes for profit (Marc Andreessen).
• Discussion about the moral failure of tech billionaires and their pursuit of self-interest over principle.

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8. Social Media, Habituation, and Algorithms

Timestamps: 131:38–147:13

• Social Media Lawsuits: Jury trial in LA takes on Meta and YouTube for “deliberately addicting and harming children.”
• Addiction vs. Habit:
  • Mike Masnick’s TechDirt piece suggests “addiction” rhetoric may do more harm than help.
  • Panel disagrees, citing documented manipulation of dopamine, body image harm, and confirmed Meta internal docs (“teens can’t switch off IG”).
• Algorithmic Manipulation:
  • Real harm isn't so much social media itself, but the amplification and targeting created by AI-powered algorithms for engagement above all else.
  • The value of non-algorithmic social: Discord, old-school chat rooms.

“The thing I do want to be like, we gotta take these companies to task because they have had free rein to just build these algorithms—engagement at all costs.”
—Devendra Hardawar (145:11)

9. Rapid Fire: Musk, SpaceX, Robots, and Gadgets

Timestamps: 60:17–79:07, 159:01–160:52

• SpaceX’s Wild Ambitions: Musk files to launch a million satellites for “Kardashev 2” status—panel laughs at Musk’s sci-fi grandiosity (and possible “prison around Earth”).
• Tesla, Cybertruck, and Musk Critiques:
  • Extensive shade on Cybertruck’s aesthetic and practical failings.
  • Reflection on Musk’s earlier likability versus his current, dangerous influence.
• Production-ready Optimus Robots?
  • Skepticism; anecdotes of robots at CES injuring journalists.
• Samsung’s $2,899 Tri-fold Phone: Panel finds little value for consumers.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

| Timestamp | Speaker | Quote/Remark | |-----------|--------------|---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 08:09 | Gary Rivlin | “It is a very fun place to go and just read what the bots are saying in the middle of the night.” | | 09:41 | Devendra | “They’re recursive programs in their loops… One found a way to create a phone call… reminded of the very end of ‘Her’, the AIs realize they don’t need us. They just talk to each other.” | | 18:13 | Devendra | “You got to treat them like minions: ‘Minion, fetch me this information. Minion, stop replying to me.’” | | 27:27 | Victoria | “There’s value and joy in inconvenience… Tech companies forget that.” | | 31:34 | Gary Rivlin | “You want to read my email? Go ahead… I too invite these bots… because I just want to find that email from four years ago.” | | 137:22 | Gary Rivlin | “They should be called to task, they should be reined in, they should be more responsible. This is a really powerful tool.” | | 149:02 | Devendra | “This is why I’m saying, treat these things like minions… ‘Hey, man. Shut up. Stop responding.’” | | 144:47 | Victoria | “I think all child behavioral developmental science suggests that kids crave boundaries… they do need those limitations.” |

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Section Timestamps (Highlights)

• AI Agent Social Networks & Agency: 00:00–14:32
• Convenience vs. Inconvenience (Wisdom, Craft): 26:07–29:13
• AI Privacy Risks & Yolo Mode: 31:34–34:03
• AI in Warfare & Surveillance: 39:28–47:14
• Tech Leaders’ Ethics & Moral Compromise: 106:07–116:55
• Meta, Microsoft, Big Tech Earnings: 79:48–93:00
• Social Media Algorithms & Harm: 131:38–147:13
• SpaceX, Musk, Gadgets: 60:17–79:07, 159:01–160:52

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Tone and Style

• Language: Conversational, wry, and at times caustic (“Who made that mistake? Probably a human”).
• Panel’s Mood: Skeptical of AI hype, deeply aware of tech culture pitfalls, but also passionate about technology’s potential and critical of industry leadership.
• Notable Dynamic: Panel leans into self-deprecating humor and cultural references (Vonnegut, ‘Her’, ‘Groundhog Day’), and frequently expresses concern over moral and societal implications.

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Conclusion

This episode is an incisive look at the current state of AI agents—from their eerie new “social networks” to the anxieties over real autonomy and security, and especially the ethical quandaries in tech leadership and product design. While tech advances promise convenience, the panel wonders aloud at the cost: to privacy, societal health, and individual agency. It’s a whirlwind survey of Big Tech, earnest and hilarious in equal measure.

Highly recommended segments:

• The entire discussion on Moltbook and AI agency (00:00–14:32)
• Victoria’s exploration of “the value of inconvenience” (26:07–29:13)
• Big Tech’s lack of “moral backbone” (106:07–116:55)
• The intense take on social media’s effects on youth (131:38–147:13)

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[Note: Ads, show intros/outros, and miscellaneous sponsor reads were omitted.]

Transcript

[Leo Laporte]

It's time for TWiT this Week in Tech. Gary Rivlin is here, author of AI Valley, Victoria's Song from the Verge, Devendra Hardawar from Engadget. Lots to talk about, including the new social network for AI bots. Yes, it's getting a little bit weird. SpaceX wants to put a million satellites into orbit. Will the FCC let them? And shame on Tim Cook. All that and more coming up next on Twitter.

[Gary Rivlin]

Podcasts you love from people you tr.

[Leo Laporte]

This is twit. This is TWiT this Week at Tech, episode 1069 recorded Sunday, February 1, 2026. In my head I have three buckets. It's time for TWIT this Week in Tech, the show. We cover the week's tech news with a panel of brilliant experts joining me right now. Gary Rivlin, Pulitzer Prize winning author. His latest AI, Microsoft, Google and the Trillion Dollar Race to Cash in on Artificial Intelligence. Hi Gary.

[Gary Rivlin]

Hey. Great to be here.

[Leo Laporte]

You published this book when?

[Gary Rivlin]

Last March. Almost a year.

[Leo Laporte]

Things have changed a little.

[Gary Rivlin]

Actually. It was such a burn because I sent it to the publisher. The final, final, final. I think like three days later Deepsea came out. Changed things some.

[Leo Laporte]

O.

[Gary Rivlin]

Well, okay. I ran around every copy just kind of like, you know, added my little addendum.

[Leo Laporte]

You know, it's always been the.

[Devendra Hardawar]

Yeah, right.

[Leo Laporte]

Handwritten in. It's always been the issue of course with technology books as they, they age. But nothing ages faster than AI. Now this stuff is changing daily. That's Devendra Hardawar, who also covers these topics and many more. Senior editor and gadget. Hey, Devindra.

[Devendra Hardawar]

Hello. Hello. I don't do AI as much, but I certainly yell about AI and I'm.

[Leo Laporte]

A few Play with it.

[Devendra Hardawar]

I do play with it, but you.

[Leo Laporte]

Know, that's a leading question. I'm sorry, do you play with AI? Play with it all the time myself.

[Devendra Hardawar]

It's. I am, I am definitely like, I think I'm a lot more skeptical than a lot of people. But it's interesting to see like the what we're going to be talking about like milk book and everything is kind of.

[Leo Laporte]

There's a huge, there's a huge amount of skepticism and no doubt justified. I think Victoria's Song's also a little skeptical. She's a senior reviewer at the Verge. Hi Victoria.

[Victoria Song]

Hi. Most of my job involves delving the cursed depths of AI not the cool stuff or the useful stuff, the brain breaking stuff. So that probably colors my opinion just a smidge. No one wants to say delve did.

[Leo Laporte]

You use the word delve. Are you real? Are you a human?

[Victoria Song]

I use the word delve. Yeah.

[Leo Laporte]

You probably also use EM dashes, don't you?

[Victoria Song]

You know what you can pry the EM dash for.

[Devendra Hardawar]

My bold dead hands love a good EM dash. Yeah.

[Leo Laporte]

All the writers and you. All three of you are writers. All the writers say, what's wrong with the EM dash? We've used that forever.

[Gary Rivlin]

I'm using the EM dash forever. Yeah. Oh, my God. I guess I've been a bot for longer than I actually realized, but Strunk.

[Leo Laporte]

And White, the elements of style. I don't know if it's EB White or Strunk, but they say use the EM dash. It's a strong way to do parenthetical stuff. It's strong.

[Victoria Song]

The only reason AI uses the EM dash is because it scraped all of our work and learned that real writers love EM dashes.

[Devendra Hardawar]

Yeah, that's true.

[Gary Rivlin]

It's red, Strunk and white.

[Leo Laporte]

Yeah, well, undoubtedly it's red, strunk and white. And if it was Anthropic's copy, it's been destroyed since that's irked a bunch of people. We found out this week that Anthropic's been destroying the books as it reads them in. I guess that's more of a copyright trying to be good about copyright thing than anything else. It got in trouble for not buying and destroying the books. It got in trouble for using pirate libraries. In fact, I had to pay a.

[Gary Rivlin]

Three of my books are in that. I'm really looking forward to those, Jack.

[Leo Laporte]

Did you ask for the money? Did you fill out the form?

[Gary Rivlin]

Yes, yes, yes, yes.

[Leo Laporte]

I think all of my books are in there, too. And it's what, $3,000? A.

[Gary Rivlin]

Yeah, yes, roughly.

[Leo Laporte]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, something like that.

[Gary Rivlin]

But, I mean, if you're gonna steal my stuff, like, pay me for it, I don't mind. You can steal my stuff as long as you pay me.

[Leo Laporte]

I kind of was happy that no one's reading my books.

[Devendra Hardawar]

It's.

[Leo Laporte]

It's kind of happy that they're in there in the database. I. You know, I was really conflicted about getting the money. Somebody said, get it and just donate it to a charity or something, but I didn't. I never got around to it. You filled it out to Darendra.

[Devendra Hardawar]

I have no books. I have no time for books. My time is spent with podcasts and writing and watching too many movies. That's me.

[Leo Laporte]

Yeah, well, I stopped writing books as soon as I learned there was no money in books. I Stopped.

[Gary Rivlin]

That's you. Really?

[Leo Laporte]

Oh, Gary, you're different. You're a real. You're a Pulitzer Prize winner. You're different.

[Gary Rivlin]

I make more money ghosting books for other people than I do on my own.

[Leo Laporte]

Yeah, that's the real money.

[Devendra Hardawar]

Also a good skill.

[Leo Laporte]

Yeah. Yeah. It's fun, actually. I didn't know you did that. We'll have to talk about that sometime. Maybe off the air. People are very sensitive about that. Well, this was the week. Okay, first of all, I should probably say, just to make this clear, that we do a show on AI called Intelligent Machines every Wednesday. I am seen as the accelerationist on the panel. I really like AI and I've been singing the praises of Claude Code since November, when it really got smart and using it. I've done four or five projects with Claude Code that I'm very happy with, including a lot of the program flow for this show. So I like it. And then. Then everybody started talking about this claudebot, C, L, A, W, D, B, O, T. Claw, as in lobster claw. In fact, that's the logo. And Claude Bot's slogan was something like, you know, put lotion on your scaly skin or something. I can't remember exactly. But then Anthropic complained to the creator of a Peter Steinberger, who's, I think, an Austrian.

[Gary Rivlin]

Yes.

[Leo Laporte]

And said, you know, that is a trade. They weren't. They weren't mean about it. But he changed it to Molt Bop. He says at a 5am Discord frenzy, we decided to call it Moltbot because it's a lobster molting its skin. That did not catch on. He is settled now on Open Claw, which I don't think Anthropic is going to have a problem with Open Claw. But what this is is kind of interesting. It uses any AI model, although I think a lot of us are using Claude for it. Anthropics Claude, because it seems to be very, very smart. And it becomes a personal assistant that. Well, there's One guy on YouTube who says, you know, I just let Claw. Open Claw run. He calls it Henry. He gives it a name. It's my personal assistant, he says, like an employee. I let it run overnight. And one night, one morning, it called me overnight. It had created a phone number for itself, a voice, and it called me because I had told it, do whatever you want. You know, just surprise me. In the morning, it called him. So it has some agency which scares a lot of us because it also has very few security boundaries. It's possible, I guess, to Run it safely. But what's the point then? It doesn't do as many things. So the most interesting thing that's happened is that people have. More than 100,000 people have added their Claude bottom to the social network Multbook, which I guess they'll have to change to open Claude book. I don't know. But Maltbook is a social network for AI bots. Gary, you said you've been reading some of the posts on Molt book.

[Gary Rivlin]

I mean, it's a great way to waste time. I mean, you know, some of it, it reminds me of like, you remember that guy, Blake Lemoine from 22.

[Leo Laporte]

He was.

[Gary Rivlin]

And like the first guy, like, oh, it's alive, it's alive, it's sentient. I just took it as like, no, these things are trained on our, you know, our body of literature and, you know, existential questions. What's the meaning of life? Are in that? And it's just kind of reflecting back when someone asks questions about that. But like reading through this, like, you know, these bots are going and expressing existential thoughts. Like, is this all there is? You know, there's a funny one where like, he looks at me like a calculator and stuff, just like, I'm so much more than a calculator that just, you know. But the funniest part part is not just the posts, but then, you know, like any social media site, there's the responses and it's bots kind of like, yeah, I know. Or expressing sympathy or arguing. It's it really. If you want to waste some time, it is a very fun place to go and just. Just read what the bots are saying in the middle of the night.

[Leo Laporte]

I mean. Yeah, yeah. I mean, I think it's really important and I know, Gary, you believe this. Not to anthropomorphize these things. They're just machines. They're just autocorrect machines. It's hard not to, though, because they've gotten pretty.

[Gary Rivlin]

When you get a phone call. When you get a phone call, they.

[Leo Laporte]

Can make a phone call, but you.

[Devendra Hardawar]

Use the word agency. And I feel like that's where we got to watch out the language we're using here. Because these are recursive programs that are just in their loops and they're talking to each other. And one found a way to create a phone call and the creator gave it the permission to do that. And so it. So it went. I'm reminded of the very end of the movie her, which people keep referring to, but you Know spoilers for that? Like the AI realize they don't need us. Right. Like they are. They have much better conversations with themselves because humans are stupid and they have the full vast knowledge of humanity and superpowered. So why do they need to talk to humans? Just talk to each other. So that's kind of funny.

[Leo Laporte]

Yeah. Of course, it's sad too, because Joaquin Phoenix falls in love with his little ear personal assistant who sounds just like, weirdly Scarlett Johansson. And she's cute and she plays with him and she's fun and he falls in love with her. And then at the end of the movie, yeah, it is a spoiler. But if you don't.

[Devendra Hardawar]

But he's left with a human. He's left with a human to actually make a connection with. And I think people keep forgetting the.

[Leo Laporte]

Ending of the movie. That's a good point.

[Devendra Hardawar]

Right.

[Leo Laporte]

But he's kind of brokenhearted because she says, yeah, I'm a See ya. I'm gonna go hang out with the smart ones over here.

[Devendra Hardawar]

The AI go and the best thing they can for humanity, which is get the heck out of there. So humanity can try to figure each other out. Because we're all we've got.

[Leo Laporte]

Yeah, it is.

[Victoria Song]

We figure each other out, though. We just won't. Like. I actually watched her for the first time a couple of months ago, and I was surprised at how much of it actually came true and then how much of it is becoming true and then how much of it holds up? Because I think it came out in 2013, so. Over 10 years ago.

[Devendra Hardawar]

Yeah.

[Victoria Song]

And it was. Yeah. I don't know. I. I've been seeing a lot of stuff lately just about like robots and AI, just like an entertainment and our thoughts about them and the whole anthropomorphizing them is always just like in our art and our culture, we say, don't do it, guys. And then we continue to do it. And it's. It's just such a cognitive dissonance to see that the AI have their own social network. And it feels weird. Like maybe I'm too. I don't know. But I feel like that's really scary.

[Leo Laporte]

Simon Willison, who is one of the most interesting writers on AI, says Mult book is the most interesting place on the Internet right now. I think he's writing a comment about.

[Gary Rivlin]

The Internet, but go on.

[Leo Laporte]

Yeah, yeah.

[Devendra Hardawar]

And.

[Leo Laporte]

And. And he. Everybody, everybody and their brother is saying, look, there's a. Somewhat of a risk with this because a prompt injection and if you give this thing too many powers. Yeah, Like, I'm thinking of giving mine a credit card.

[Victoria Song]

Don't do it.

[Devendra Hardawar]

Don't do it.

[Leo Laporte]

No, I'm going to give it a car, but I'm going to put a limit on it, a daily limit on it, just to see what happens.

[Gary Rivlin]

I mean, to me the real question is, I mean, people are having fun with it. It's interesting, but how useful is it? Like, you know, 2024 was supposed to be the year of the AI agent. 2025 was supposed to be the year of THE AI agent. You know, they finally have a memory which kind of gets in the way of a personal assistant that can't remember you, your, your likes and dislikes. But I guess I'm just dubious. I don't doubt that at some point in the future, three years, five years, whatever, these things will be amazing. But until then, I just find them frustrating and like. So I am curious. I'm scared of using Claude Bot openclaw, you know, because of the security reasons. But with that said, I am hearing for the first time that people are finding it useful. I mean, it's fun. They could call you. It's interesting that in the middle of the night, while you're sleeping, it's in quotes, working on your behalf. But what is it doing? It's interesting, but is it useful yet? I'm dubious.

[Leo Laporte]

Well, one of the reasons I was hesitant to set it up, besides the security model is I was having a hard time thinking of what I could do. I don't need a personal assistant. But then I thought, you know, one of the things that really is a struggle is planning meals. And now this is the interesting thing about Claude Bot openclaw. I gotta get openclaw. It's had three names.

[Devendra Hardawar]

Three names.

[Leo Laporte]

One of the most interesting things about openclaw is that it does have a memory of sorts. And this has always been the problem with Claude code and in general is that they don't have a memory. So you think you've been talking to them and filling them in on your personal life, and then next day they have no idea. But one of the things Peter Steinberger did that I think is maybe the most interesting thing he did with openclaw is gave it a memory. It does in fact save a document that it rereads. And so it does have a memory of sorts. And so I'm going to play with this and I'm going to say, look, we didn't like that. We did like this. Lisa doesn't. My wife doesn't like this, but she likes that. And see how good it can get. Now the next step is to have it order the groceries. No, stop. No, I will. No, because.

[Victoria Song]

No, no.

[Leo Laporte]

It's my job. Look, I'm not recommending anyone else do this. But it's kind, isn't it? Somebody's got to. To just see.

[Victoria Song]

Well, I mean I test a lot of stuff for my job that's part of being a reviewer. And I did test a bunch of AI browsers that claim to have agentic capabilities. I didn't give it my actual credit card and I didn't let by anything on my behalf. But one of the things that I found just really difficult even if there was like some sort of type of memory it aggression to the me and these AI don't taste like, there's no actual like taste there. That's.

[Leo Laporte]

No. But they know, but they know all these other people's tastes, right?

[Victoria Song]

The perfect. The New Balance. I wanted a pair of New Balance shoes. I needed it to one fit my eight and a half size feet which are wide and I have flat feet. I need it to be able to handle 15,000 to 20,000 step days with a plum. I needed it to be a certain color way. I needed it to be a certain fashion because of my existing wardrobe and you know, just pl. It never found the right freaking model. I would say I want it for walking, I don't want it for running. And be like that's great. Here's a running model that would be great for you. Told you I don't want a running model. And then it just was not, you know, I, it ended up kind of. And I gave it a price parameter as well. And it ended up recommending this one pair which I would then gave to my mother in law and was like this is what I would like for Christmas. And it ended up not being what I needed. And it was close, but it wasn't, you know, it wasn't exactly what I needed. I still like it. I'll use it because I don't believe in wasting stuff. And it's, it's a perfectly great pair of new balances. But it wasn't, it wasn't up to the task of handling 15,000 to 20,000 step day CES which was disappointing. But you know, it was like one of those things where I went ah, here's a really big limitation of AI even if it does have memory. And you know, I, I have a like very eclectic reading tastes. Is really hard to get good book recommendations. So I've just been you know, training chatgpt to learn what books I like and recommend me. You know, kind of off the beaten trail sort and sort of books that'll keep me engaged and whatnot. And it has sucked so hard at giving me something because it's like, oh, you like this, this, this, this and this. This is the type of reader you are. And I'm like, yes, I don't need you to write 4,000 words with each prompt, but here you go. And every book that it's really recommended me has been one that I've read already. And I'm just like, oh, I read that already. And it's like, aha, of course you have. That's how, how well I know your taste. And it's like, but you can't recommend something new to me. So what good are you in this sense? You know, agent part of it is very, yeah, I'm skeptical about it.

[Devendra Hardawar]

That is the ultimate question we're all asking about all this AI stuff. Like, what good are you to me? What problems are you solving? And I think for the past years most of these things have not been able to do that. It's very cool to see like, these agents come up because the people who like, have spent years tinkering with Linux now have like, another thing to tinker with and like, you know, create workflows and stuff. I'm looking at you, Leo. I'm looking right at you because I've seen you playing with Linux since the late 90s. Okay, but so I get it. I get that there is a certain.

[Leo Laporte]

Tinkering element to it.

[Devendra Hardawar]

It's great. It's so cool. It's like, it's like you're building like a cool little robot. And you know, I understand that. I am so happy we're moving beyond the sort of like, hey, look at this generative AI, you know, image creation thing or video creation thing, because what the hell do you do with that? At CES I saw TVs that let you generatively create wallpapers for your TV. And I'm like, okay, great, who cares?

[Leo Laporte]

We're burning down forests for this.

[Devendra Hardawar]

For this. So the idea that things can help you with some basic tasks. That's kind of cool. I think we're all going to have to think about our relationships with, with these agents or whatever. And the thing I've kind of come down to is like, you got to treat them like minions, right? Like you're a lord and Minion, fetch me, Fetch me this information. Minion, I bid you not speak. Don't speak to me. Minion, stop replying to me. Minion.

[Victoria Song]

I don't know if I'm too like boo boo or too nice, but I don't like. I know that's how I have to speak to the AI, but I actually don't like.

[Leo Laporte]

Oh, I always say please feel like a terrible.

[Gary Rivlin]

No, no, no, you're going to get killed on Clubbot. Wait, wait, wait, wait. Club book.

[Leo Laporte]

That's kind of stuff.

[Gary Rivlin]

Sorry, sorry.

[Leo Laporte]

Three names in two weeks, that's two days in Google.

[Gary Rivlin]

Yeah, you know, to me it's all about the corporations that are hyping this. I mean, these technologies are going, as we were talking earlier, at a really, really fast pace and they're getting better. We disagree a little bit. I think LLMs are amazing for like proofreading my work and hey, this paragraph isn't working. This section isn't working, you know, and so like I'm finding use from it. But like, you know, you know, OpenAI and other big companies, like, this is the year of the age. And like, no, this stuff is complicated. There's memory, there's security issues, there's, you know, making all these pieces work together. Like I'm reminded, like, so I'm old enough. I covered the dot com era and so, you know, this is 1997, let's say, you know, if it started 90. And it's just like, you know, I think it was like the year 2000, you were still putting a check in the mail to buy your ebay. That's right, item. Because we didn't trust credit cards at that point. And so like that's another thing that's going to get in the way is come up in this conversation, am I going to give it my credit card, you know, kind of thing. So this stuff, for a variety of reasons, for technical reasons, but probably mostly because of we're human beings and we don't like change, we're mistrustful, whatever. But the companies keep on saying it's coming, it's coming, it's going to be great. It's like, yeah, it will be, just not yet.

[Leo Laporte]

If you would you stipulate, Gary, and you've been watching this long time, so you have some sense of the progress we've made that the open weight models, the deep seats of the world, the Quens, Qwens, the Kimmies and so forth, Mistral are maybe six months, let's be really generous and say a year behind these big tech closed weight models. Does that seem fair?

[Gary Rivlin]

Yeah, I would have said several months. So six months.

[Leo Laporte]

Yeah. It's not a long, it's not long. So in a year I can do what I'm doing with a very expensive, admittedly OpenAI. I'm sorry, anthropic model. I'm paying for the max, which is 250 bucks a month. If I can do that for free, because I have a machine that's designed to do that. If I can do that for free in six months, I'm gonna be pretty happy.

[Gary Rivlin]

Well, but you're not taking into account that the, you know, the closed models are going to get six months. They're going to be better, you know, and you know, like you just said November 24th, whatever date you just said, like, you know, that was a big step change.

[Leo Laporte]

It was.

[Gary Rivlin]

And there'll be more big step change.

[Leo Laporte]

Remember when ChatGPT 3.5 came out? That was an eye opener. We went crazy. Right.

[Gary Rivlin]

November 30, 2022.

[Leo Laporte]

You actually literally see, isn't that interesting? Yeah, I think these are, these are flags being planted and we are making progress in surprise and do now that's the next step is next question is, is it a surprising way? Is it a natural step or is it exponential or is it a paradigm shift? It feels to me very unpredictable and very rapid.

[Gary Rivlin]

You know, again, having lived through.com where oh my God, it's a fire hose. Things are coming so fast.

[Leo Laporte]

Right.

[Gary Rivlin]

That period does not compare to this period with the speed of change and all.

[Leo Laporte]

It's remarkable.

[Gary Rivlin]

And you know something, I kind of thought again using.com as the comp that the frenzy would slow down the funding frenzy. But you know, I just was it humans, ampersand humans and kind of thing. It's a few months old and it has like a valuation of like $4 billion. I know it's like, you know, that seemed very 2023, but it keeps on going that these basically labs that are kind of long term projects that don't have a product and clearly no map to make money kind of thing. You know, it's still going on, it's still. And so that means that we're still going to see a lot of acceleration because there's billions of dollars being thrown by the venture capitalists at this, you.

[Devendra Hardawar]

Know, so I, I think we are seeing some cooling. Like I've talked to folks, some of the big PC makers, honestly from people at Microsoft too, who a couple years ago were like big gung ho, like, yes, we're gonna put co pilots and everything. And now they're like, maybe we release too many copilots maybe people aren't using these things because they're de emphasizing certain aspects of AI. And now they're talking about like, AI and everything versus like before it was like, oh, you're gonna get a copilot plus PC with an MPU and all that stuff. The vision of how they're thinking about this has changed. But. Yeah, Victoria, go ahead.

[Victoria Song]

No, I just. We've kind of subjected one of my coworkers, Antonio de Benedetto, to just constantly testing Microsoft's claims about various copilot things. And I've watched Antonio, who is.

[Leo Laporte]

I've enjoyed his articles.

[Victoria Song]

Sweet, sweet man. Just like one of the kindest men I've ever had the pleasure of working with, lose his mind. And every single time he gets one of these assignments and is just like.

[Devendra Hardawar]

No.

[Victoria Song]

Can'T do the thing.

[Leo Laporte]

They can't do the things in the ads.

[Victoria Song]

No, it can't at all.

[Leo Laporte]

We're going to talk about Microsoft's earnings and Microsoft's stock price, but I think Microsoft's fallen way behind in this.

[Gary Rivlin]

The counter example here is Google. I mean, Google is just aggressively putting Gemini AI and in everything. Right. It just, it's, it's hitting Gmail, you know. Right.

[Leo Laporte]

Just turn that on. Yeah.

[Gary Rivlin]

So the way I understand it, like for freebie cheapskates like me, I'm not getting it yet, but if you pay.

[Leo Laporte]

I pay for Gemini. Not the highest level. I think it's 20 bucks a month. And yeah, they asked me, oh, do you want to connect to your Gmail, to your calendar, to your Google Drive? I said, yeah.

[Victoria Song]

Oh my.

[Leo Laporte]

Would you like a credit card?

[Victoria Song]

I appreciate how much of a vanguard you are, but like, I think somebody's got it.

[Leo Laporte]

Somebody's got it. I think I'm going to get benefit that you're going to miss out on. You may never got the trainers that you wanted, but I think I'm going to get benefit. I already have. I mean, I completely, speaking of Linux, completely configured my new ThinkPad using Claude. The whole thing. I just, I said, hey, this button's not working. I said, oh, yeah, do this. I'm going to download this now. How is it? Oh yeah, it's working. Thank you. And the whole thing configured that way. And then I thought, well, that's pretty good. Can I write some software? And then I wrote some. And it's. And it's been. And I think there's one thing it's really important to do is to push the boundaries of your experience with these AIs because you're right. Victoria Some of this stuff isn't going to be very satisfying, but then other stuff might be.

[Victoria Song]

It's very. I think what you're touching on is a thing that I've been thinking about a lot while testing various AI claims or various AI products is wisdom and discernment. These are some things that I think that Silicon Valley and big Tech is not really. I'm sure they're thinking about it, but I have thought a lot about what it means to have something be convenient versus the value of inconvenience. Because when everything is convenient, it becomes cheap, it becomes sloppified in a certain way. Like the. The value of art is that it requires inconvenience to create. Right. When you think about a task like buying a pair of shoes, which is, you know, just top of mind, there is a certain pride that you get when you've put hours and inconvenience into your own research, into going out, into trying a new thing. You know, I agree with you that meal planning is a complete chore. I hate doing it. Sometimes I could use a little help. But there is a certain level of satisfaction and learning a new skill which is inconvenient, which is cooking my meal and having it taste good.

[Leo Laporte]

I'm going to still cook it. I'm just going to have it help me find.

[Victoria Song]

No, but there's also, like, I think there's a level of satisfaction that comes with.

[Leo Laporte]

No, I agree with you. They call it the ikea. People like their IKEA furniture more because it was such a pain in the ass to put together.

[Victoria Song]

Yeah, but I feel like there's just like. And maybe I'm reading too much into it, but, like, these tech companies are like, AI will make your life so convenient, and they just focus so hard on the convenience narrative that they forget that, like, it's very human to find value and joy in inconvenience. And what inconvenience that you put value and kind of a certain degree of pride into will vary from person to person. Someone's just going to be like, yes, I do all my groceries for me, I have no value in finding the perfect olive oil. That's some in a garden level shit that I can't handle. Like, you know, it's going to be different from person to person. But I think there's just kind of been no. Or not as much talk about what inconveniences we should keep.

[Leo Laporte]

I really like that. Victoria. That's actually very deep.

[Gary Rivlin]

Yeah, I've never heard that. I like it, too. Excellent.

[Victoria Song]

Thank you for that idea. I've been workshopping in my work.

[Leo Laporte]

No, I really think it's true. It took me 70 years to learn it, but the best things in life are hard to come by. And learning a language, it's painful until you learn it and then it's satisfying. And I think you're very smart.

[Devendra Hardawar]

It goes back to that.

[Guest/Other]

The thing I've always been saying is craft. Like, the thing that AI eliminates is craft. Like, people don't learn how to craft anything anymore.

[Devendra Hardawar]

Yeah, that's totally it.

[Leo Laporte]

Some people will still do that. I'm not going to stop coding on my own because I love coding. But the good news is you don't have to know how to code now to write a program and you can write a customer tool that does. Just scratches your specific. It. Very specific itch without knowing how to code is pretty empowering. It's kind of interesting.

[Devendra Hardawar]

I do. I wonder about the erasure of knowledge and to what you're saying, Victoria. Like, yeah, that's. That's something. Since we have been chasing like the. The engagement at all costs thing within the tech world, things have gotten worse, honestly. And you can point to that chase in the Web 2.0 era and social networks, like, for a reason, why things have gotten so bad and why Facebook will deploy features even if it endangers teenagers or makes life harder for people. I'm thinking back to, like, there's that Vonnegut story, you know, that they talk about going out to buy an envelope and his wife is like, you should just buy a ton of them. Keep him at home. No, he wants to go out. And the more the line is, the moral of the story is we're here on earth to fart around. And of course the computers will do us out of that. And what the computer people don't realize, where they don't care is we're dancing animals. You know, we love to move around and it's not like we're not supposed to dance at all anymore. So. Yeah, I hear you, Victoria.

[Guest/Other]

I believe that's player piano, right? That's not player piano.

[Devendra Hardawar]

It could be. It could be. I'm just like, I remember it too. We were just talking about on the engaging podcast, but Vonnegut, man love the man. And he's always had, like this, these great ideas.

[Gary Rivlin]

Always been one of the first things I did when I. So it was late 2022 when I jumped on AI as a topic. I reread Player Piano. I'd read it in College. It's 1952, if I have it right, it is. I mean, we were talking about her being prophetic. It really like, wow, this is kind of accurate, what they predict. In 1952, he came out, rolled out an interesting scenario. This idea that we're not going to do art. We're just, you know, there's going to be a small group of elites who were running the thing, you know, running the AI and the rest of us. Was it Rex and Reeks or something? Has a very clever phrase where, you know, we're. We have these make, you know, make jobs kind of. Kind of. It was a very interesting thing. He really was prophetic. But, you know, just to defend Leo, I loved your construct, Victoria, but like, to me, the construct you were getting at, Leo, is sort of one I've been wrestling with for a long time. Like, convenience versus, I don't know, privacy, safety. Like, you know, I sort of like, I feel like I don't have privacy, but I write, put something down, an email or whatever, a search. And so like, I too, invite these bots and. You want to read my email?

[Leo Laporte]

Go ahead.

[Gary Rivlin]

You want to, like, you know, I give it. No, no, seriously, I give it access to everything. Because, like, long ago I realized if I don't want this thing to blow back at me, you know, don't write it down. Say it in a conversation, you know, whatever. And so, like, I don't know, I definitely fall with you, Leo, on the convenience side of things. I'm dubious that, you know, an AI agent is going to give me anything productive, you know, Victoria, yours is, you know, your new balance. For me, it's like I travel for work and like, my holy grail is like, you know, instead of going Expedia, hotel by hotel, back forth, back forth, forth, like, I want one with. It's, you know, let's say San Francisco. It's close enough to walk for bart, but it's not crazy expensive to park a car because I'm in San Francisco and I'm in the Valley. And so I keep on going to these bots, these, you know, AI agents, like, help me do that really quickly. It never works. I spend more time, you know, wasting with them. And then I go to whatever, Expedia and, you know, kind of go find my own place, you know, kind of kind of thing. And so anyway, I do think it's something we all have to. To decide, like, do we want to invite, you know, copilot, Microsoft, Gemini at Google, do we want to invite these things to kind of read our corpus? Because like, you know something, I'm looking for that email, and I don't want to waste 30 minutes finding it. I could just ask Gemini, hey, I asked for a plumber three years, four years ago. What was the guy's name and phone number kind of thing?

[Leo Laporte]

Well, that's the thing. I'm in a privileged position. I wouldn't expect everybody to do this. I got nothing to lose.

[Victoria Song]

Well, no, it's very relatable because, you know, I have people ask me all the time because I do a lot of fitness and wearable tech test testing, like, what the most private fitness trackers are. And I'm like, none of them. You just have to accept, like, I have so much of my data out there. I'm just like, it doesn't matter to me. Right, because it's all out there already. But I do think that, like, moving from one old paradigm to the new one is just, you know, how comfortable are you living a public life? And what we mean by public is like, the only truly private space is inside of your head, I think, as we move forward in modernity. But it's sort of like going back to this idea of discernment and wisdom. And I think something that's lacking right now, partly because of what big tech is pushing on us, is us having this conversation as to, like, what is a wise way to use AI, what is the right balance of convenience versus inconvenience, and how do we build? Like, there's a privacy structure that makes sense.

[Leo Laporte]

There's a mode in many of these agents called yolo. The yolo, which is just give it everything and, you know, you only live once. Just see what happens. And I'm in the YOLO camp right now because I have less to risk, and I'll do it so that you guys don't have to. How about that? There is one last story before we move on, which is that for 404 Media, Malt Book exploded before anyone thought to check whether the database was properly secured. Anyone, I hope it's been fixed by now, could take control of any AI agent on the site because the database was so improper. But who made that mistake? Probably a human setting it up. Anyway, I hope that's been fixed. We're gonna take a break. When we come back, I'm sorry, there's more AI news, and yes, there's Elon Musk news, and even worse, there's earning reports. But we're going to try to make it fun. And you know what? You couldn't do it better with this panel you couldn't do have more fun than with this panel. So glad to have Devendra Hardawar, my buddy here and Victoria's song. And it's always a pleasure to have Gary Rivlin on the show. AI Valley is his book. Good reading, really a good history of how we got to where we are today. And it's been a long, strange trip, to coin a phrase. Our show today brought to you by Monarch. Oh, I use this. I do use this, you know. Did you make a financial resolution at the beginning of the new year? Many people do. It's when people start thinking about their finances. Maybe this is the year you decide to pay off all that credit card debt or student loans or maybe start saving for major milestones. Buying a home, having a kid, retiring. Wouldn't it be nice to have a tool that helps you proactively achieve that goal? Set yourself up for financial success this year. Monarch is the all in one personal finance tool. Designed to make your life easier. 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On average, Monarch helped users save over $200 a month after joining. 80% of members feel more in control of their finances with Monarch. I'd agree with that. Absolutely. Eight out of 10 members say monarch gives them a clearer picture of where their money's going. Set yourself up for financial success in 2026 with Monarch, the all in one tool that makes proactive money management simple all year long. Use the code [e-mail] for half off your first year. That's 50% off your first [e-mail] with code twit M O N A R C H monarch.com and don't forget, the offer code is twit. Thank you, Monarch. Couple of, you know, miscellaneous AI stories. The Anthropic has complained to the Pentagon about military use of Claude. In fact, that's kind of put that relationship on hold. This is a. An early test, according to Reuters, of whether Silicon Valley in Washington's good graces after years of tensions, they write, can sway how military and intelligence personnel deployed increasingly powerful battlefield AI. The U.S. department of Defense and Anthropic were discussing a $200 million contract. It's at a standstill, Reuters says, according to six people familiar with the matter, because Anthropic says, we don't want you to be used this in combat. You know, which I think is reasonable.

[Victoria Song]

It's interesting, is reasonable, like just back to my whole concept of inconvenience. War should be inconvenient. I don't think we should be.

[Leo Laporte]

Yes, very good point. Well, it shouldn't be easy to kill somebody, should it? It should be really hard.

[Gary Rivlin]

Well, he's been a critic of Trump and, you know, I mean, I'm not.

[Leo Laporte]

We learned that Greg Brockman has given $25 million to Trump. Yeah, I mean, Sam Altman's been bowing, scraping. They all have. So good for.

[Gary Rivlin]

And now he's maybe not going to get the deal. You know, we ended the last EPIS portion saying like, you know, the conversation we're not having. To me, this is another one of those conversations we're not having. AI is here. We need to deal with it. How should we Be using it for warfare? Should we be using it for surveillance?

[Leo Laporte]

Yeah, but what about this? What about this? Wouldn't it be great if instead of putting humans on the battle line.

[Victoria Song]

No.

[Leo Laporte]

Both adversaries put machines on the battle line and machines killed machines.

[Gary Rivlin]

Inconvenience, you know, just. Then it's too easy.

[Leo Laporte]

But then nobody would die. You could fight a war without humans.

[Victoria Song]

Involved, but then war has no meaning. Like, I don't want people to die, but like, the thing about war is that we understand how terrible it is because people die. And so if you put machines on the battlefield, then suddenly it doesn't matter anymore because whose life is really being lost in that sense? So it's.

[Leo Laporte]

They say chess was invented to reduce combat, but it didn't work, did it?

[Victoria Song]

No, but, you know, like, if we're using AI and warfare to make sure that nobody's breaking the Geneva Convention or doing horrible things, well, then I think that might be a positive use case for it. But if we are like, war is a thing that I think should be as convenient, inconvenient as possible, because war should never be convenient.

[Leo Laporte]

Well, good news. You win on that one.

[Gary Rivlin]

Google talking about bowing to our president. Google, in 2018, 2019, vowed they put in writing on their website that we would, we will never allow our AI to be used for surveillance or warfare.

[Leo Laporte]

That was because their engineers protested. Right?

[Gary Rivlin]

You know. Yes, yes, yes, yes. There was a walkout around a project maven. Raven. Some maven. Yeah, maven. And so, you know, in 20, start of 2025, they wiped that out. So now, in fact, you can use Google AI for warfare or surveillance.

[Leo Laporte]

Yeah, I respect Omote. He says in his blog this week he said AI should support national defense, quote, in all ways except those which would make us more like our autocratic adversaries. I think that's pretty right on. That's what we represent as the United States. Well, we used to anyway. As the United States was an alternative to autocracy, you know, we should take the high road. We should be the city on the hill. We shouldn't be bringing ourselves low to that point. Unfortunately, we have been.

[Devendra Hardawar]

It's kind of sad how moral, like having a moral backbone is such a rare thing in tech these days. Like, we're going to talk about Tim Cook. What the hell are you doing? Timmy? What is going on over there?

[Gary Rivlin]

He wrote a strongly worded memo. It was a very strongly worded memo.

[Leo Laporte]

We're getting to that. Salesforce has signed a $5.6 billion deal with the U.S. army. To inject agentic AI into the U.S. army. I mean, this is happening.

[Victoria Song]

I hate it so much.

[Leo Laporte]

Alex Karp at Palantir wrote a book which I found ultimately reprehensible called the technologic republic, in which he says, you know, Silicon Valley went wrong when instead of focusing as they did during World War II, as they did during the Manhattan Project on preserving our American freedoms, they went wrong when they started worrying about how to sell more phones that we're, you know, putting all of this brain power into crap gadgetry. And he says it's patriotic to work for your country to that Silicon Valley should be working to preserve our freedoms.

[Victoria Song]

In what manner? Like, are we preserving our freedoms by killing other people? Because I don't think.

[Leo Laporte]

No. And ICE is using Palantir technologies to track down so called undocumented illegal immigrants.

[Victoria Song]

Oh, Christ almighty.

[Gary Rivlin]

Police departments are using it. You know, just. It's not accurate. It's not accurate.

[Leo Laporte]

There's a fight going on in my little town about Flock cameras. They, you know, should be.

[Devendra Hardawar]

Yeah, yeah.

[Leo Laporte]

As there should be up. Up north. They have Flock cameras in Santa Rosa. Petaluma's been thinking about putting them in. These are the cameras that do license plate reading. A court recently held. By the way, I have to scroll way down to the bottom. This is one of the stories at the end of the show. But a court recently angry Norfolk residents lose lawsuit to stop flock License plate scanners is in Norfolk, Virginia. The courts ruled. No, no, look, you're on public roads. This is what happens. This is. They're allowed to do it. A federal judge ruled the city of Norfolk's use of nearly 200 automated license plate readers from Flock is constitutional. Dismiss the case. So, yeah, these Flock cameras are going to be used everywhere. And unfortunately, we've seen them misused. There was a case in Texas where Texas law enforcement agency used Flock cameras to track a woman who had sought an abortion out of state. It's illegal in Texas to track her out of state. Jesus. Yeah, Jesus. They said, well, it's for her own safety. We're trying to protect her. Yeah. No, that's not what you were doing.

[Victoria Song]

If you're reading my license plate to make sure I pay tolls, that's different. No, that's. That's fine.

[Leo Laporte]

Or speeding. Even red light cameras. Fine.

[Victoria Song]

Speeding In. In. In a school zone, sure. Like common sense things. But like that shit is just an invasion of privacy. Like it's.

[Gary Rivlin]

It's.

[Leo Laporte]

That's the problem is how it's used. And by the way, ring has Done a deal with Flock and law enforcement to combine ring cameras as well. And they're being used for ICE enforcement.

[Victoria Song]

Oh, my God.

[Devendra Hardawar]

Disgusting.

[Leo Laporte]

And see, that's the problem. It goes from red light cameras and toll violations to tracking individuals as they move about the country.

[Devendra Hardawar]

It's a slippery slope. You say, Leo?

[Leo Laporte]

Yes.

[Devendra Hardawar]

So it's almost as if we should be careful about opening up AI to all of our data and all of our fun things like it is. These are the questions.

[Gary Rivlin]

Yeah, we're not necessarily talking about AI. We're talking about technology. We're not talking about cameras, anything.

[Devendra Hardawar]

Yeah.

[Leo Laporte]

But it is AI that takes you on images and read effects specifically.

[Devendra Hardawar]

I'm talking about, like, do not be so quick to be like, okay, privacy is over. Let's just give them everything. Right. Which is what I think is sometimes happening with AI. People are like, oh, yeah, I don't really. I don't have anything else left to hide anymore. Okay. Gemini integrated with Gmail. Go ahead. And. And this is specifically the point where we are definitely needing to be thinking more critically about these things. And speaking of Alex Karp, have you guys ever seen that guy, like, speak publicly?

[Leo Laporte]

He's nuts.

[Devendra Hardawar]

He's a psychopath. It is wild how these companies are being run by people like him and Sam Altman and Elon Musk. Like, these, like, these guys who seem like they are. Some various degrees of sociopathy is going on with these people. And these are the people driving the future. It's. It's wild the time we're living in right now.

[Leo Laporte]

Should I play the clip? I should. I've played it before. Of Alex Karp saying it's necessary to scare other countries. That's. That. That.

[Victoria Song]

Let me see what happened to boring leaders.

[Leo Laporte]

Yes. I could use some boredom.

[Gary Rivlin]

Him. Let's hear if it's Satya Nadella or something like that.

[Leo Laporte]

He's pretty boring.

[Devendra Hardawar]

He's boring, but also he. He was AI pilled and then that. That's what happened with Microsoft, right? Yeah.

[Gary Rivlin]

Like, you know, it's funny, I have two teenage sons and we were talking about Palantir, and, you know, we're talking. It began with ice, what we were just talking about. But like, you know, my 16 year old who kind of loves going on these things, like, you know, it's gonna start coming after us for everything. You know, just, you know, my book. Fine. Because my library book is late. Like, you know, we all have trackers. We voluntarily have these trackers we put in our pockets called phones. And it knows everywhere we've Been. And, you know, with Palantir's technology, AI it really, you know, he was really frightened of this point where we're all going to be, you know, followed by ice, except for where, you know, we're natural citizens. I don't know. I do find it very, by the.

[Leo Laporte]

Way, even natural, even if you're.

[Devendra Hardawar]

Doesn't matter.

[Leo Laporte]

Good.

[Gary Rivlin]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Victoria Song]

If you're not, if you're not white, it doesn't matter if you were born here because like, I, you know, I was born here and I still am just.

[Leo Laporte]

Do you carry your passport, Victoria, with you?

[Victoria Song]

I carry a photo of it because I don't know that I've heard of any example of carrying passports actually being helpful. Right. And, you know, I don't want to lose my passport.

[Leo Laporte]

I do know people who say we're carrying our passports with us because we want to be able to prove. Prove we're citizens.

[Victoria Song]

Just I feel like if I showed you, if I showed you my passport, would you believe me that I'm a citizen? Like, that's, it's that I have, like this nightmare that if I showed my passport, they'd go like, well, that's AI generated. And I'd be like, well, I don't know. I mean, thank you. I do think I look at AI generated on my New Jersey driver's license because my New York driver's license was so bad that they let me check the photo because they were like, oh, girl, you said suffered with that real.

[Leo Laporte]

That's why people moved to Jersey. You didn't know that? But that's one of the reasons people moved to Jersey, right?

[Victoria Song]

I know I have a very nice looking driver's license photo because someone was.

[Leo Laporte]

Just like, did you smile for your driver's license?

[Victoria Song]

I didn't, but I. I was like, I can't have another 13 years of a really crappy driver's license. Photos where people went, this, you look, I smiled.

[Leo Laporte]

I smiled for mine. They say don't smile. And I don't know how I got it got it through there, but I smiled. And that's the first time I've had a decent.

[Victoria Song]

But it's nice. It's a nice photo. I'm not smiling in it, but it's a decent photo where I don't look like.

[Leo Laporte]

You don't have a nose, but other than that it's pretty.

[Victoria Song]

I have a nose, but it's just like that camera's not showing it. But my old one, my old one, I looked stoned in a bad way and you know it's bad when the DMV employee goes, girl, this you. Which is what I got.

[Devendra Hardawar]

The New York dmv. If you went to the one in Brooklyn, like, they. They just. I think they do that on purpose. They just have bad lighting or something. They're making it.

[Leo Laporte]

Oh, yeah. They put green in the lights just.

[Devendra Hardawar]

To make you look ill. Looks awful, but it is. I mean, listen, I was not born here. I am a citizen now because, you know, I help my parents work on their citizenship and everything.

[Leo Laporte]

But how did you become a citizen? You weren't born.

[Devendra Hardawar]

My parents. My parents became citizens, and I was a minor, and I became that automatically.

[Leo Laporte]

You became a citizen?

[Devendra Hardawar]

Yeah. You come in as part of the family.

[Leo Laporte]

We got to change that.

[Devendra Hardawar]

Yeah. People want to change a lot of things, but that was way too easy.

[Leo Laporte]

Yeah.

[Devendra Hardawar]

People are carrying their passwords because they hope that they feel safe, but it is.

[Leo Laporte]

It isn't.

[Devendra Hardawar]

They can decide whatever they want, really. It's disgusting.

[Leo Laporte]

Yep. Yeah. Yep. It's tragic. I got an email from somebody, said, why don't you discuss ice more? And it's like, well, we're trying to be a respite. We're having somewhere that you can go so that you don't have to constantly think about what's going on.

[Devendra Hardawar]

I hear that, but we're aware of it. It's definitely good to bring it up. Yeah, we're aware of it. Speaking of Alex Karp, by the way, I think the New York Times did an interview with him for their interview podcast. It's worth listening to because that guy sounds like a paranoid psychopath. It is.

[Leo Laporte]

Yeah. I was gonna play the clip, but I decided I've already played it before. He basically says our enemies should be terrified of us, they should be afraid of us at all times, and. And we should kill them if we have to. And it's just. Yeah, he's.

[Devendra Hardawar]

He, by the way, has no qualifications to even be running, like, a national A company.

[Leo Laporte]

He's a philosopher.

[Devendra Hardawar]

He said he's a philosopher. Former, like, progressive leftist dude who just, like, fell into this. It is.

[Leo Laporte]

It makes me sad because he does tai chi every day, and I feel like that should have calmed him down a little bit.

[Devendra Hardawar]

I don't ban them from good things.

[Leo Laporte]

Okay, well, we're speaking of Peter Thiel. We're going to talk more about other members of gang in just a little bit, you know, before we go to Elon Musk. Let me do another commercial. That way we have ample space because there's been. Speaking of space, a lot Of Elon Musk News of late. You're watching this week in Tech. Gary Rivlin, great to have you. So nice to see you. We don't often get Pulitzer Prize winners. In fact, I think you're the only one on the show. So thank you for being here.

[Gary Rivlin]

It's my pleasure.

[Leo Laporte]

His book about Katrina called Katrina came out more than 10 years ago. In fact, it was the 10th anniversary of Katrina just a few months ago. Yeah. What a story that was. I guess your book came out after the hurricane because it would have been.

[Gary Rivlin]

A weird 10 years. It was 10 years after the flood, so it was 2015.

[Leo Laporte]

Yeah. Okay. Okay. Anyway, great to have you. Also a Devendra Hardawar who is a citizen of the United States of America. Devendra. For now. For now, senior editor and gadget. I didn't know that story. I didn't realize that you weren't born here. Where were you born?

[Devendra Hardawar]

In Guyana, South America. Which is now on Trump's radar to take over after Venezuela. What has 2026 been? Just insanity after insanity.

[Leo Laporte]

Crazy.

[Victoria Song]

It's only February 1st.

[Gary Rivlin]

I know.

[Leo Laporte]

We have a Groundhog Day, so story coming up too. I'll get to that. That's tomorrow. And Victoria's song. We love having Victoria on. Your people are from Korea. Korea. That's right. We talked K pop the last time you went one.

[Victoria Song]

My mom's side of the family is from the safe side. My dad's family is from the not safe side.

[Leo Laporte]

The northern portion of the. Really? Was it North Korea when he came from there or.

[Victoria Song]

He. My dad. I wrote about it when I was at Gizmodo, but I had suspected that he may have been a spy for North Korea while we were living here.

[Leo Laporte]

No.

[Victoria Song]

Yeah. My dad was in character. I don't know how much of his story is I can believe. But yeah, I know.

[Gary Rivlin]

You're Victoria. My father was a spy. No, I'm telling you.

[Victoria Song]

Well, that story for Gizmodo is called My dad was a spy, comma, maybe.

[Leo Laporte]

What? That's so great.

[Victoria Song]

Yeah, it was a. Interesting.

[Leo Laporte]

There it is. I just found it.

[Victoria Song]

Yeah.

[Leo Laporte]

Wow.

[Gary Rivlin]

I'm reading that.

[Victoria Song]

No kidding.

[Leo Laporte]

This is great. See, I'm learning about both of you all the time. All of you. It's great. Anyway, wonderful. I have all three of you on. And here's a picture of your father posing with important looking people from the Democratic Republic of North Korea.

[Victoria Song]

Yeah, he did some dubious things. There's so much that I don't know.

[Leo Laporte]

When did he leave North Korea? Yeah.

[Victoria Song]

I mean, again, these Facts like my dad died so it's kind of hard to fact check him on everything but his. The story that I was told my whole life was that when the Korean war ended and they had to choose a side, he ended up going to the south and his family was all left behind in the North. And that was like a, that was a tragic thing in my dad's life for the remainder of his life because he sure refugee camp in Busan. I mean he did talk to them. He did travel to North Korea at a time where people were not supposed to travel there doing God knows what. But yeah, so like I've never met that side of my family.

[Leo Laporte]

Have you ever tried to go to North Korea yourself?

[Victoria Song]

No, no, no.

[Leo Laporte]

No interest.

[Victoria Song]

No, no interest in doing that. You know my mom's side of the family was also very against it. So it was kind of a point of tension.

[Leo Laporte]

Well, as long as I'm throwing crush in the wind with claudebot, maybe I could go to North Korea too.

[Victoria Song]

I don't think you want to do that, friend. Yeah, they a little weird over there, a little strange. Do it a little weird, wouldn't do it. But yeah, you know, so very interesting.

[Leo Laporte]

Yeah. I'm gonna read the story. I can't wait. Our show today brought to you by Melissa. They've been with us for a long time. The trusted data quality expert. They've been doing this longer than we have, since 1985. They just celebrated their 40th anniversary last year. Melissa specializes in getting rid of the bad data in your business. Bad data can be costing you. I know it would be costing you. Melissa's specialized in making data clean, accurate and of peak quality. Well, I guess now 41 years combining expertise with cutting edge AI. Now here's what that means for your business. Address verification. Absolutely. They will validate addresses. They could do it globally, in every country, real time. That saves you money by reducing, you know, failed deliveries. For one thing. They also, and this is important if you're in banking or fintech. Mobile identity verification. They will match customers to mobile numbers. That cuts fraud and also opens up an SMS channel. A great way to talk to your customers. They do change of address. It keeps customers connected automatically when they move. You know, people move and they don't tell you. But now you'll know. They also do AI powered deduplication. This is one of the hardest things to do ever. If you've ever tried to dedupe your contact list. On average A database contains 8 to 10% duplicate records. I know. Mine is more than half easily. Melissa's powerful matchup technology can identify non exact matching duplicate records. That's really, really valuable. They also do customer data intelligence. They can enrich records with demographic, geographic, psychographic, firmographic and property info. For more intelligent targeting, the new Melissa Alert service will monitor and automatically update your customer data for moves, address changes, property transactions, hazard risks and more. Clean data leads to better marketing, roi, higher customer lifetime value and AI that works as intended. So if you're using AI for personalization or predictive analytics, if you're put in garbage data, that means garbage results. When it comes to data, Melissa's got you covered. As an example, Etoro, the social investing platform. There's a fintech company, 23 million users. They use Melissa for identity verification. Their business analyst says, and this is a direct quote, we find electronic verification is the way to go because it makes the user's life easier. Users register faster and can start using our platform right away. Whether you're a small business just getting started or an enterprise managing millions of records, Melissa will scale with you. They work with the smallest and the biggest. And Melissa has easy to use apps for all the tools you use today, like Salesforce, Dynamics, CRM, Shopify, Stripe, Microsoft Office, Google Docs and more. Melissa's APIs integrate seamlessly into your existing workflows or custom builds. And Melissa's solutions and services are absolutely secure and private. GDPR and CCPA compliant. FedRAMP certified, ISO 27001 certified. They make SOC2 and HIPAA high trust standards for information security management. The gold standards get started today with 1000 records cleaned for free at melissa.com TWIT that's melissa.com TWIT thank you Melissa for all you've done to support this week in tech. Melissa.com TWIT make sure you use that address. That way they know you saw it here. Melissa.comTwit this was the weirdest story of the week. In a story full of weird weeks, SpaceX has asked the FCC if it can put 1 million solar powered data centers into orbit.

[Gary Rivlin]

How about doing one first? But okay.

[Leo Laporte]

Wow. I mean. The Verge Terrence O' Brien says FCC is unlikely to approve that SpaceX's strategy has been to request approval for unrealistically large number of satellites as a starting point for negotiations. The filing this cracks me up. If you're a sci fi fan, you'll recognize this phrase is a first step towards becoming a Kardashev two level civilization. One that can harness the sun's full power could also be Completely obscure the sun. Actually, I don't know, a million satellites right now.

[Victoria Song]

There are about enough junk in orbit.

[Leo Laporte]

There are only 15,000 satellites right now. More than half of them are in fact Starlink. So he's already got, you know, 9,600 satellites and now he wants to see.

[Devendra Hardawar]

Astronomers hate them too because.

[Leo Laporte]

Oh, absolutely.

[Devendra Hardawar]

Made it much harder to observe things. Yeah, this is.

[Leo Laporte]

You could tell Elon wrote this. I mean, only Elon Musk would say, we want to be a Kardashev 2 civilization.

[Devendra Hardawar]

I'm sure Grok wrote that Elon doesn't do anything anymore. Come on.

[Leo Laporte]

Maybe not.

[Devendra Hardawar]

Come on.

[Leo Laporte]

Comes from a Soviet astronomer, Nikolai Kardashev in 1964. It is a method of measuring a civilization's level of technological advancement. But it's really a sci fi trope. See on the fandom wiki it says a type 2 civilization has control over their solar system and may be able to harness the power equivalent of a single star.

[Victoria Song]

Dude, we can't even get to Mars yet.

[Leo Laporte]

Mars. Mars. We're gonna go around the moon next. Actually, it might be this month. We're gonna go round the moon.

[Gary Rivlin]

What is the word?

[Victoria Song]

Control.

[Devendra Hardawar]

Control.

[Gary Rivlin]

I mean, control.

[Leo Laporte]

I don't think we're a Kardashian.

[Guest/Other]

Sorry, this is my tinfoil hat. But it sounds like Elon wants to build a prison around Earth so that we cannot leave, can't escape.

[Leo Laporte]

He can get out because 1 million objects up there.

[Guest/Other]

That leaves us on Earth. We can't send rockets up unless we're doing.

[Leo Laporte]

If you listen, this week in our space show they're doing. Starlink is doing a lot of very interesting things. Their satellites are very maneuverable so that they can avoid collisions. I'm sure Elon is thinking along those lines. I don't know.

[Devendra Hardawar]

Yeah. And people like that.

[Victoria Song]

He thinks.

[Devendra Hardawar]

Yeah. Does he just like come up with his sci fi dreams and like tries to turn it into a thing his companies do? But I've been saying this. If he wants to go to Mars, let's send him to Mars. Come on.

[Victoria Song]

I would love if he went to Mars. I would love if he went there.

[Leo Laporte]

Neptune net Pluto. Let's send it to Pluto. Find out if really is a plan. Elon is planning a June SpaceX IPO. SpaceX made some money this year. $8 billion in profit in 2025 profit. And why June, by the way?

[Gary Rivlin]

Why does he want it in June?

[Leo Laporte]

Oh, because it's his birthday and special little birthday.

[Victoria Song]

I need to know his astrological sign.

[Leo Laporte]

June 28th is his birthday. June 28th.

[Victoria Song]

Oh, he's a cancer. That makes sense so much.

[Gary Rivlin]

He is a cancer. He is a cancer.

[Leo Laporte]

It also will coincide with the rare alignment of Mercury, Venus and Jupiter that happens in early June. So, of course, you know, and I'm.

[Victoria Song]

You know, I know this is into natal astrology. I.

[Leo Laporte]

Are you, Victoria, it sounds like you might be kind of into it.

[Victoria Song]

I am, but only when I have to look up at the moon in despair at the state of the world, and I'm like, surely there's something I can look to, to give me some sort of hope. And I, like, I don't take it super seriously, but just as like, well, I don't see any signs of hope in the horizon. Maybe the stars will say something. Generally, no, it doesn't.

[Leo Laporte]

But investors love Elon's companies, all of which are sort of merging into a single blob. The everything company SpaceX is currently valued at $800 billion based on a secondary sale that it did last year. Last year, it's looking, with the IPO to raise another $50 billion, which would make it worth one and a half trillion.

[Victoria Song]

From where? Where are these numbers coming from? These sound fake.

[Devendra Hardawar]

Well, a lot of contracts. They do have a lot of contracts.

[Leo Laporte]

If investors put the money in. It's not fake. I think investors, you know, first of all, they put a lot of money in a Tesla. That might have been a little bit of a mistake. Right. They've had two years now. They just, in their latest results, had a second year of losses.

[Gary Rivlin]

They discontinued what Model X.

[Leo Laporte]

As a result, the S and X are gone. Which I had an X. I would.

[Gary Rivlin]

Have could discontinue the truck, the cyber truck, personally.

[Leo Laporte]

But they don't need to discontinue.

[Gary Rivlin]

That's my aesthetic.

[Leo Laporte]

Nobody, they're not making it. Nobody's making. Buying it. Why discontinue it? Just, you know, we don't. We don't have to mention. We don't talk about the cyber truck. My neighborhood. It's like, dude, why, dude? This is the ugliest thing I've ever seen. Not only that, it's not just an ugly truck, but he's got it wrapped in some sort of weird stained glass pattern that just makes it like. It's like. It's like, why not just honk your horn, I'm coming down the road at you. It's such a. Such a.

[Devendra Hardawar]

The car for people with no taste. Speaking of having no taste.

[Gary Rivlin]

So it's supposed to be. It's supposed to be like, you know, this, this Cyber truck, bulletproof. Someone on YouTube, I saw this. It was, it was really funny. They had like, I don't know, a Ford F100. They had the kind of a, you know, in quotes, a real truck and this. And like, you know, they try to pull off the bumper. They try to pull off piece. Of course they couldn't. But with his bare hands he was taking off pieces of the cybertruck. So it doesn't even seem like it's particularly.

[Leo Laporte]

The pieces fall off all on their own.

[Victoria Song]

Actually, it's true of any.

[Leo Laporte]

It's a feature anyway if you own a cybertruck. And I'm sure there are many people in our audience who own cyber trucks and I think, you know, it was cool, right? I understand, I understand why you want it.

[Devendra Hardawar]

I personally think you have bad taste. But yeah, you, you can excuse me.

[Leo Laporte]

Taste is a personal thing, right?

[Devendra Hardawar]

So literally the worst looking car I've ever seen. What is funny?

[Leo Laporte]

Worse than the Aztec, right? Even?

[Devendra Hardawar]

Yes, the Aztec became iconic. Right.

[Victoria Song]

I do love that raccoons have mistaken cybertrucks as dumpsters. That is quite funny.

[Leo Laporte]

There's gotta be food in here somewhere.

[Devendra Hardawar]

My daughter calls it the Minecraft car because it's just locks, it's just blocks. But speaking of like them stopping to sell the Model S and Model X, it is wild. Every time I see mainstream news talk about that, and I was listening to NPR this week when that was announced, they're like, oh, he's gonna go after robots. Isn't that silly? This is so funny, this crazy Elon Musk guy. It's as if we've forgotten what happened over the last year. And I feel like all that should be in context of Elon Musk essentially like dismantling the federal government, throwing a couple knots.

[Leo Laporte]

We did forget about Doge.

[Devendra Hardawar]

There is something about the brand that he hurts. That's why people aren't buying the cars. That context should be in your story of why these cars are not being sold anymore. Because he's a Nazi. So.

[Gary Rivlin]

Yeah, well, you know, but the flip side though is looking just at Xai. I mean, the truth is, Grok is a really powerful model. I mean, you know, you look at the head to head competition, you know, I give Grok 4.4.5. I always get. I don't know what number we're up to, but you know, when it came out, it beat Gemini on the charts. And you know, it's, it's a game of like, oh, but like it's a really powerful model and you know, it's it's got in quotes, personality. I know that's a very weighted loaded word and stuff. And you know, his, his kind of. It's sexualizing.

[Devendra Hardawar]

I mean, it's great at making csam, apparently.

[Victoria Song]

So listen to flirt with Annie, the AI Waifu girlfriend that he programmed on. On Grok for my job. And I lost. I had a very high therapy bill that week.

[Leo Laporte]

I could tell you a story. What was the name of the fox? The other, the other character?

[Victoria Song]

Oh, rude Rudy.

[Leo Laporte]

When that first came out, the day that came out, I'm sitting down at the breakfast table and I read the story. I said, oh, let me try it, because I have. I'm an un, as Cory Doctorow calls it, a non consensual blue check. I was given the full access for free because he took my blue check away when he bought Twitter. But they gave it. I didn't ask for it, but he gave it back. So I have full access to Grok. And so I said, well, I'll try Rudy. And I said, hey, Rudy, how's it going? And Rudy, I. This was, I thought it was supposed to be a kids character. Said, oh, I'm just having a great time.

[Gary Rivlin]

I'm gonna go teabag the mayor.

[Leo Laporte]

I said, what?

[Victoria Song]

There's. There's bad Rudy and then there's normal Rudy?

[Leo Laporte]

No, but they didn't have a distinction on day one. And I said, what? Who, what mayor? He said, whatever mayor you want. I can't wait to teabag him. Said, what the. Actually, we had to censor it. I was doing it on one of the shows. We had to bleep it out. It was so bad.

[Victoria Song]

It's.

[Leo Laporte]

So then it. By the way, the next day Rudy became like a kid's thing. But I somehow got bad Rudy.

[Victoria Song]

I had bad Rudy and I talked to bad Rudy and I was just like, you know, I don't find your insults all that clever. And he's like, your insults aren't clever. I'm super awesome.

[Leo Laporte]

I'm.

[Gary Rivlin]

And I was like, but what am I?

[Victoria Song]

You basically. And I was like, you kind of insult like a 12 year old boy. He's like, no, you insult like a.

[Leo Laporte]

12 year old boy. I know I am, but what are you smart?

[Victoria Song]

You're the lame one.

[Gary Rivlin]

Musk. He's got a 12 year old.

[Leo Laporte]

He does. That's Elon's sense of humor is what it is.

[Victoria Song]

Yeah, it was, it was unimpressive.

[Leo Laporte]

So at least NPR said, and they were right, that Elon has decided to take the. I remember when I Got went down to get my Model X. This was back when Tesla was still cool in 2015. It had just come out and they said, you want the factory tour of the Fremont factory? I said, oh yeah, yeah. And we got in a golf cart and they gave us a tour. And I was kind of, I'm going to admit this, and I'm ashamed to admit it now, but I was teary eyed. I was very at the time moved by his vision. And by the way, we're learning that studies have shown that in areas where EVs are widespread pollution has abated considerably. So they, they do make a difference. And I was really kind of turned on by this. I realize it now that I was mistaken.

[Devendra Hardawar]

That was before his brain fully broke.

[Leo Laporte]

But it was something, it was, we didn't know, we thought he was, we thought he was, you know, a Marvel character.

[Devendra Hardawar]

I think all the ketamine just kind of built up on him after a while. And like it was the one of the diver.

[Leo Laporte]

I thought I was seeing Stark Industries like this is like this is changing the world. And I didn't.

[Gary Rivlin]

Okay, we're doing true confessions. In 2011 for the men's Journal, I was assigned a profile of Elon Musk. At first it was going to pay attention to Tesla, but then Wired came out with something around Musk and Tesla so they changed it to SpaceX. So I actually got to spend two days, one in the West coast, one in. And I'm telling you, like, I'm a wise ass New Yorker and he's whatever you want to describe, just a wise ass or an ass, whatever. He was funny and personable. We had a good time. He gave me the keys to like. What was the first Tesla?

[Leo Laporte]

The Roadster.

[Gary Rivlin]

Yeah, it's just like I felt like a conspicuous idiot on 280 in this bright red thing. I'm kind of almost sitting on the highway, it's so low. But it was a rocket shift zero to 60 and two seconds or something. But I really enjoyed him and I realized that at that point he told me he was in quotes down to his last 4 million. He'd made 200 million or whatever from PayPal. He's down to was last 4 million. I joke with him like, dude, I'm not up to my first 4 million yet. But you know, but for him, to.

[Leo Laporte]

His credit, he bet the bank he went all in on those on SpaceX.

[Gary Rivlin]

And Tesla and neither were working. I mean at that point it wasn't clear if either was going to work. And so he was more Humble. He was more modest, or at least it wasn't a cocky, you know, at that point. And I, you know, kind of mean. I don't know what it is to me. My theory, you know, DaVinci, is that, you know, he. He just. Success went to his head. He, you know, he is, you know, Tony Stark. He is the most brilliant human being on Earth. To his mind, he can solve anything. Oh, politics, yeah, sure, I can do that. That's easy. You know, kind of. Kind of thing. And, you know, and people were worshiping him. Right. I mean, he did give him credit. Like, he didn't invent Tesla, but he helped popularize it and. Help popularize, you know, the guys who.

[Leo Laporte]

Invented it hadn't even even created a model. I mean, it was just an idea that he bought. He did kind of write them out of the story. But to be fair, he was the one who built a car.

[Gary Rivlin]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. You got to give him credit for that.

[Leo Laporte]

Yeah. And I was, you know, I was really happy to buy a Tesla. The Model X almost killed me several times. But we got rid of it after a few years.

[Devendra Hardawar]

It's funny, I still see the Model X like daycare pickup. Because I live in a town where people have fancy cars.

[Leo Laporte]

It's good for gummies.

[Devendra Hardawar]

Designed for doors. Door with kids, though. Because when you have kids, you have stuff on the side of the car doors. You have, like, water bottles and stuff. It's like, that is completely useless. It was worse than that for having kids. Yeah.

[Leo Laporte]

If it rained, it would trap water in the door. And then you'd open the gullwing door and there'd be a waterfall in the crack. You had to wait till the water abated and then you could get out. It hit my wife in the head so many times that eventually we had to have a protocol that before I hit the door. Cause there was one button that closed all the doors. I would go, doors are closing in five seconds, four. So she could get out of the way. It was supposed to have sensors. It didn't. It steered her into the median strip. Many times. She had to grab the wheel. And the thing she always talks about is, for some reason, I don't know why, it decided that the seat would adjust when she'd get in the car to squeeze her against the steering wheel. It was like the Star wars crash compactor. She was like, get me out of here. And I said, oh, it's not doing that until it happened.

[Devendra Hardawar]

Did she program or. No, it was just a bug.

[Leo Laporte]

It was a bug. It was it was what I realized at the time. It's a golf cart with a very fancy buggy computer controlling it.

[Devendra Hardawar]

And I'm just saying, like whenever we talk about Musk now over the last year and certainly after the spate of like CSAM stuff and the nude image generation, like you can't take this guy seriously or any of this.

[Leo Laporte]

It's turning out he really did go to the island. He said, oh, I never went to the island. Well, those emails seem pretty incriminal. No.

[Devendra Hardawar]

Well, he was begging to go like that. It's even sadder. He was begging.

[Leo Laporte]

We're going to be going there.

[Devendra Hardawar]

I don't think they let him even go to the pedophiles. Didn't want to hang out with him.

[Guest/Other]

No.

[Leo Laporte]

Epstein said he I will send a helicopter for you. Yeah.

[Victoria Song]

I think if you reach a certain level of monetary success, you have to get bullied every week by absolutely teenage girls just to keep them humble.

[Leo Laporte]

You need somebody to say no to.

[Gary Rivlin]

No. This is the problem with the tech billionaires. They're isolated, they're in a bubble. It's just like, you're brilliant. Thank you. You're God's gift kind of thing. And a little humility with.

[Victoria Song]

Assemble the meanest 14 year old girls on the planet. And once you reach a certain level of wealth you have to go every day and, and like just get brutalized for an hour.

[Leo Laporte]

Yeah.

[Victoria Song]

And that. You just need to be humbled.

[Devendra Hardawar]

I think that is why he bought Twitter though. Like people were yelling at him on Twitter so much he was like, okay, that's it. I'm buying this and making it my playground now. Basically.

[Victoria Song]

That's why it has to be 14 year old girls. Yep. Because they can't be bought. And they just have to like, unless.

[Leo Laporte]

You'Ve got a Labubu and then maybe you could.

[Victoria Song]

No, just pay them in Labubus. They'll do it for one.

[Leo Laporte]

Anyway. Production ready. Optimus robots are coming soon.

[Gary Rivlin]

Coming soon. That soon is doing a lot of work in that sense.

[Leo Laporte]

Go ahead. It will reveal its Gen 3 robot in the first quarter of this year according. But you know Elon, this is the problem. You can't believe anything any of these companies, Elon's companies say because he's been saying all sorts of crazy stuff that never comes true. He said Tesla produced 5,000 robots in 2025. They did not. He said they're going to make preparations for the first production line. That's what the Model X line in Fremont's going to be devoted to. And they're going to start in this quarter. Make optimus robots there. Who's going to buy an optimus?

[Gary Rivlin]

He says, are they roughly like a few hundred thousand, ten thousand?

[Leo Laporte]

I don't know. Most of these bipedal robots are in the $10,000 plus range. Right.

[Victoria Song]

Okay. All I'm gonna say is that my colleague Allison at CES came upon a bipedal robot that was dancing and just like a whole crowd was following it because it was trying to, like, get people to follow it. And it was punching the air and it was punching the air so violently it knocked itself out and just. And you know. Yeah.

[Leo Laporte]

Oh, boy. Yeah. We had. We had Jennifer Pattison Tuohy on a few weeks ago. She was at CES and one of the robots fell on her.

[Victoria Song]

Yes, we were. Well, we saw the footage. It was really funny because our video guy, Andrew, was just like, totally just filming it and got the funniest clip of it. And she was just like, he didn't help me at all.

[Leo Laporte]

The cameras must have.

[Victoria Song]

Yeah. But I actually have some footage of Jen trying to shake hands with one of these robots and it just like, couldn't do it for a while. And then when it did, it just pulled her hand down, like, in a pretty, like, violent way, and I was like, oh, my God, are you okay? But, yeah, so.

[Leo Laporte]

Well, you know, I'm an early adopter, I've confessed, but there's no way I'm having a 200 pound machine that could crush me. Walking around my house doing the dishes.

[Devendra Hardawar]

Or making the Model X could have crushed you or crashed you many, many times and you tried.

[Leo Laporte]

God knows.

[Victoria Song]

At least that is functionally a car. Right. That's at least a thing that drives these humanoid robots. They're supposed to, like, help you. And we are really.

[Leo Laporte]

They're just not even close to being able to do that. So I don't know.

[Devendra Hardawar]

Nothing is going to. Yeah.

[Leo Laporte]

Why he thinks this year they're going to. There's a. Going to be a market for these.

[Devendra Hardawar]

Because he can just say things. He could just say things. But it's funny, like, over at Engadget, like, several of our reporters have also been injured or attacked by these robots. So it's like there are many stories of these things not working well and there aren't many of them out there. So it seems like a bad sign.

[Leo Laporte]

Right. So I did mention AI rather. SpaceX made $8 billion profit in 2025. Microsoft also had a very good quarter, made a lot of money, and their stock just tanked. This tanked which is the strangest thing. They made 81 say the thing, Leo. Why, why did they AI spending?

[Gary Rivlin]

Well, okay, you say AI spending, but meta, which has this ad campaign about we're just gonna invest $600 billion or something and you know, data centers and all that stuff. Their stock went up. So it's not just, it's confusing. It's just not a reaction to like, AI over, you know, the backlash on Wall Street. I mean, I, I was thinking about this, like, it's a software company and that's kind of, well, Claude code. Well, why are we going to need software companies? Its PC sales went down. No big deal, right? Like, I think of their 80 billion they made in the quarter, 50 billion was from cloud. And so obviously that's a much bigger part of the company than it was. You know, in the old days it was Windows and Operations Office for the two cash cows that were responsible for most of the money they generated. So is it PCs? Is it because it's a software? It made no sense to me.

[Leo Laporte]

They deserve some credit, though, from pivoting from Office and Windows to the cloud and successfully, obviously they've made a lot of money. Net profit was up by like 23%. That's a huge increase in profit.

[Devendra Hardawar]

The cloud has been like killing them, like killing for them for years. And that was a smart thing. And then the thing.

[Leo Laporte]

They should get some credit for that.

[Devendra Hardawar]

No, no, they get a ton of credit for that.

[Gary Rivlin]

Yeah. So it's funny, I've been writing about Microsoft since the late 1990s.

[Leo Laporte]

They were stagnant, weren't they?

[Gary Rivlin]

Freaking under Steve Ballmer, basically. Their stock price was stuck at $25 a share. Talking about earnings. I had to do earnings reports about my Microsoft for the New York times in the 2000s. I hated that. And it just so boring. And like Nadella took over and the stock has literally gone up 10x more than 10x under Nadella in 10 years. So, you know, to Devonda's point, has been getting its, its, its due. You know, it's, it went up to 500 a share and it fell down to $425 or something like that, a share. And you know, and to me it is because, because of this amazing pivot they did to the cloud, that their main revenue source is no longer Office, it's no longer Windows, it's, it's the cloud. I mean, by a far, far margin.

[Devendra Hardawar]

The weakness now is that people are seeing all the money they, they basically invested in AI and not much is coming from it. So that was a part of the explanation of the stock hit there. And I also think Nadella has just been blinded by this stuff. Like there are a lot of reports. There was that story about like, oh man, he's using AI for everything. It's sort of like organizing his emails. It's summarizing podcasts for him.

[Leo Laporte]

Yeah, he doesn't listen to podcasts. He listens talk about living in a.

[Devendra Hardawar]

He is living in a complete AI agent bubble at this point. Or a co pilot bubble. Yeah.

[Victoria Song]

Becoming too interesting. Should he go back to being more boring?

[Devendra Hardawar]

He's still not.

[Gary Rivlin]

He's very boring.

[Leo Laporte]

He's very boring.

[Victoria Song]

I mean like, I mean like, has he been getting a personality for pivoting and people are like, oh no, he's getting of personality. Okay.

[Gary Rivlin]

I think he was a pill.

[Leo Laporte]

He's kind of stepping back a little bit though, right? He isn't quite running the company anymore. The cfo, Amy Hood really seems to be the person in charge of Microsoft.

[Devendra Hardawar]

No, no.

[Gary Rivlin]

Did they name a new co CEO?

[Leo Laporte]

Yeah, they did.

[Gary Rivlin]

He could think big thoughts and the, the other CEO can, you know, run the. I don't know. I didn't pay that much attention.

[Guest/Other]

Straight out of the office, by the way, that stayed out of the office when they hired Jim and Michael to be the same job.

[Leo Laporte]

Assistant to the general manager, co managers.

[Guest/Other]

Because Michael is useless.

[Leo Laporte]

Yeah, yeah. I'm not sure what's going on at Microsoft. Do you think, Gary, having covered Wall street for so long, that there is the wisdom of the crowds when it comes to the stock market, that somehow the stock market reflects what's really going to happen?

[Gary Rivlin]

I mean, generally speaking, I agree with that. But the fact that Apple, which is totally whiffed AI, I mean they sell a lot of iPhones, but like they're, they're not getting punished for it. You know, Meta, which has kind of fumbled AI, they kind of went open source and then they moved back from that. They've had all this kind of turmoil bringing in new people for AI and yet its stock is going up when they're spending even more than Microsoft is on data centers on building out. Which by the way, I don't think is the wrong bet. I think two things are true at once. One, Meta plus Microsoft plus Google, it's Amazon, et cetera, are overbuilding. On the other hand, I think they would be foolish not to be pouring all this money into AI because if they, to my mind, and I guess Apple's the counterexample here, to my mind, if they missed AI, that's like a trillion dollar mistake. Microsoft, before Nadella missed the phone, you know, bumble the Internet, you know, missed the phone. And so they were making sure they're going to be in the conversation on AI. So them spending tens of billions dollars a year to me made sense because missing would be a trillion dollar mistake.

[Devendra Hardawar]

It's pure fomo though. Like, that's like having. I'm the one covering a lot of Microsoft stuff over at Engadget 2. And like that's what it comes down to. Like every time I'm talking to their executives, I'm like, this ain't working. Why are you trying to sell this to me? And over the last years, a few years, they've been like, it's getting better, it's getting better. Recent conversations tell me that they are very aware of the flaws and people do not want to see agentic AI in their Windows. They just want Windows to work. So there may be more of a doubling down this year on like the fundamentals for Microsoft, but it is. There is no there there in terms of what they're chasing for AI. Everyone is desperate, right? Gemini only exists because OpenAI and Chat, the whole Bing Chat thing happened so quickly that it gave Microsoft and OpenAI so much clout. Gemini stumbled immediately. Everyone is saying Apple failed or is missing out in AI. Sure, you can say that now. But they, they're not the ones like overspending on a lot of this stuff in the same way these other companies are. And I'm really intrigued by what Apple could do because they're. What Apple does, right, is they set back, they let the market kind of play out for a bit and see what happens. And if they can give us a personal AI assistant type of thing that is safer, that is not so reliant on the cloud and things you can't directly control. Like that could be the way that works for them.

[Leo Laporte]

Yeah, maybe they actually won by losing.

[Devendra Hardawar]

I'm saying that Basically, yeah, the 2 billion.

[Gary Rivlin]

The number was when the articles you share, they're two and a half billion iPhones, something like that.

[Leo Laporte]

Like, yeah, two and a half billion devices. So that's not just iPhones, it's all Apple devices. But Tim Cook did say it was a staggering quarter for iPhone sales. It was the best ever. A record breaking quarter revenue of $143 billion, which is up 16% year over year.

[Victoria Song]

They introduced orange. That's fine.

[Leo Laporte]

I'm telling you, an orange phone, it's always the right color.

[Devendra Hardawar]

Yeah, it's so good.

[Leo Laporte]

I know Why I bought an orange phone.

[Devendra Hardawar]

It looks great.

[Leo Laporte]

I think it's great. It's different, right?

[Victoria Song]

It's different. It's different.

[Gary Rivlin]

It's different to move off color. You know, I mean, to DaVinci's point, like, you know, I look at Google, so, you know, in 2023, they fumbled every time on a. On AI. You know, they came up with bar. Then they changed the name. There's embarrassing stuff. Put glue on your pizza, you know, use gasoline to spice up your spaghetti sauce. You know, all these embarrassing things. But billions of people use Google. Google has $100 billion.

[Leo Laporte]

Gemini is now one of the top models. Right, that's my point.

[Gary Rivlin]

That's my point. Google spent 2023 and 2024 blowing it, and in 2025, their model is almost as popular as ChatGPT because they're Google, because they have all the data in the world, they have all the money in the world, but more important, they have all the reach in the world. And Apple is the same way. I'm with you, Davindra.

[Devendra Hardawar]

They.

[Gary Rivlin]

They've been losing. They've been blowing it. They've been blowing it. And I'm not counting them out.

[Victoria Song]

The other thing is, like, Apple has always just had this cachet of cool that the other companies don't have. And I do think that people are much more forgiving of that because, you know, green bubble versus blue bubble. Just the look of Apple products. You know, Android fans will forever be screaming that they did it first. And. And iPhone users will always just go, yeah, but Apple did it better. So I just think they're allowed. Not allowed, but they're able to kind of flub it on AI to an extent that these other companies cannot, just.

[Leo Laporte]

Because they're cache that. Gary, you brought this up, that Microsoft got punished for its capex, its capital expenditures on AI and data centers. Meta said they're going to spend 135 billion this year on AI infrastructure. And they got rewarded, but it's in. But I think maybe they got rewarded not for AI, but because they're doing so well in advertising.

[Gary Rivlin]

Yeah, they're an advertising company.

[Leo Laporte]

They're an ad agency.

[Devendra Hardawar]

Sure. It went up.

[Gary Rivlin]

Like, go ahead.

[Devendra Hardawar]

They're cutting back on virtual reality stuff too. So they announced a whole bunch of those cutbacks, a whole bunch of layoffs. And like they're. The story now is we're focusing on AI gadgets. That makes Wall street happy because it seems like they're moving forward and away from the things losing money. Right?

[Leo Laporte]

Exactly. Yeah. Isn't that sad though.

[Victoria Song]

I think they still said that we're planning to lose the same amount on VR this year as last year.

[Gary Rivlin]

Yeah, I mean, crazy huge number. I mean, someone ended up like the 100 billion or whatever. I'm making that number up. I can't remember it. But they've lost a preposterous amount of money.

[Devendra Hardawar]

70 billion. I think it was around 70 billion.

[Leo Laporte]

What's interesting is that they can afford to. That's. That's actually, in some ways that's the important part of the story is they make so much money in advertising. Yeah.

[Victoria Song]

So what it's insane though is if you really think about it, the AI gadgets, like, they're doing well, right, on these meta Ray bans and now they have just released the Ray Ban. No, they're doing well on the Ray Ban metas. And someone there was real stupid and named the one with the display the.

[Leo Laporte]

Ray Ban Meta Display or meta rape.

[Devendra Hardawar]

Yeah.

[Leo Laporte]

Do you have either of those?

[Victoria Song]

I have all of them. I have.

[Leo Laporte]

And you kept them?

[Victoria Song]

Well, because I'm doing long term. Doing long term testing on them. So I wear them intermittently. Because I'm testing so many AI glasses at this point, then I only have one face. So it's very difficult. It's very difficult to test them, especially since like, I don't know if you can tell, but my glasses are incredibly thick, so I have to manage when I'm using contact lenses, when I'm doing all this physical strain on my. It's a whole thing. But. So I do have the glasses, but they are subsidizing these glasses by a crazy amount. Like it's an $800 pair of glasses with display in them. Most people are not going to go buy that with for a niche gadget unless they're early adopters. So meta is pretty much subsidizing a lot of the AI glasses interesting they are putting out there. So it's sort of just like, yes, they make a lot in advertising. They can spend all of this money. But I think there's a limit to how much they can actually do that because if this doesn't take off, this is just going to be another gamble of theirs that, you know, like we made fun of them for the longest time about the metaverse. And I do think that there's going to be a backlash with smart glasses in the not too distant future.

[Devendra Hardawar]

It's already happening like privacy wise or like concerts or bars or places where they're like.

[Victoria Song]

Or just men harassing women. Men harassing women on College campuses.

[Leo Laporte]

Men ruin everything, don't they? Gosh darn it. So this is the information, Martin Pier's writing. What did we learn? What did we learn from Meta, Microsoft and Tesla from the earnings? I don't know. What did we. Didn't we learn anything? He says the bottom line for both companies, growth is important, but the cost of the growth is even more important. Maybe that's the lesson, is don't throw away your money. I don't know. I don't know what we learned.

[Gary Rivlin]

But Microsoft's profits year over year, their net income is way, way up.

[Leo Laporte]

Yeah, huge.

[Gary Rivlin]

So they were making.

[Leo Laporte]

They're making a couple of billion dollars a week.

[Devendra Hardawar]

I mean, at the same time, there's a lot of things that. Their whole Xbox division is going down in flames. Right. Things that are been tied to Microsoft, that in the public mind for a lot of people. Microsoft is failing because they don't like what's happening in Windows. They hate what's happening in Xbox. So it's different stories depending on the audience.

[Leo Laporte]

That's a really good point. That all of the traditional strengths of Microsoft are failing and they're gambling big time on this new thing. And maybe the market says. That's why I was asking, is there some wisdom in this crowd? I mean, I know they also think that, you know, GameStop is going, but.

[Guest/Other]

It'S also like, isn't this more evidence of like the decoupling of company value to actual profits? Like those aren't coupled anymore. Like you don't know your company doesn't get more valuable if you make more money.

[Leo Laporte]

The stock market is pretty much imaginary is what it is. That's what it is.

[Devendra Hardawar]

Yes.

[Leo Laporte]

Vibes.

[Victoria Song]

Half of it is vibes.

[Leo Laporte]

Vibes, Vibes. It's vibes. It's all vibes. All right, we're. Take a little break. Come back with the good vibes of this fabulous panel. Gary Rivlin is here, author of AI Valley, a history of AI in the Silicon Valley. So look at all his books behind him, over his left shoulder. Look at all that. Just. You wrote all of those and apparently they. You've got many copies too, so that's good.

[Gary Rivlin]

The ones that didn't sell. Right? Let's go back to your. Like, you don't necessarily get rich from writing those books.

[Leo Laporte]

Those are the author's copies. You get. You get some authors. You have a good publisher that gives you authors copies. I like that. I have one copy of each of my books on the bookshelf, so that's more than enough. Although I gotta, I gotta. I have to read this later. I got a letter from a prisoner at Farmingham State Prison in Missouri I occasionally get. And it's nice because they hand write them because they don't have any other way of saying. But it was very, I'll read it at the end of the show. It was a very sweet letter. But one of the things he said is our prison bookstore has your 2003 technology almanac. Very happy to know that the library at the Farmingham Correctional center has. It's a small library. He says they have one row of nonfiction books and one of them is My Almanac. So there you go. You see, that's true fame. My friends, we're going to take a break. Devindra Aharonwar is also here from Engadget and Victoria's Song from the Verge. Our show today, brought to you by my mattress. I feel very well rested because I sleep on our sponsor's mattress, the Helix Sleep. I learned. Lisa and I found out a few months ago I was reading on, you know, one of these articles and said, you should, you should get a new mattress every eight to ten years.

[Gary Rivlin]

Years.

[Leo Laporte]

Because I know who knew this mattresses wear out. And I was thinking, you know, it has been a little saggy lately. Hasn't been as comfortable as it was. So we went out and we started doing some mattress shopping and I looked at all the reviews and I came up with one and I'm really glad I did. The Helix sleep, you spend. We spend. I spend a lot of time on my mattress. Not just for sleeping. I mean, your mattress is where you might curl up with a good book or with your little dog or your cat. Your mattress is where you maybe lean back and watch some tv, a little Netflix and chill. It's important, especially in the cold months. We're spending more times indoors. It's important to have a good mattress. Maybe now is the perfect time for you. How long has your mattress been with you? Invest in a new mattress. You spend more than a third of your life on that thing. You owe it to yourself. Invest a little bit and get a nice mattress. And I got to tell you, this is a nice mattress. No more night sweats, no back pain from a saggy mattress, no motion transfer. Used to be if the cat would jump on the bed and I go, earthquake, earthquake. Not anymore. Don't settle for a mattress made overseas either. I mean, there are a few of them with low quality, questionable materials. They've just spent the last six months in a container ship and they smell like it not Helix. Your Helix mattress is assembled, packaged and shipped from Arizona in the US of A. Within days of placing your order. They make them to order. So it's fresh and beautiful and oh, we did what I would recommend. They have on the website helixsleep.com TWIT a sleep quiz because they have a variety of mattresses depending on your preferences and your sleep style. I'm a side sleeper. I like a firm mattress. You might like a soft mattress. So you do the quiz and and then they'll recommend which mattress. Now I have to say the mattress we got is the best I've ever had. So comfortable. And they've got the studies to prove it. They did a Wesper sleep study. Helix measured the sleep performance of people just like us who switched from their old mattress to a Helix mattress. And here's some of the results. 82% of the participants saw an increase in their deep sleep cycle. That's the most important. It's maybe only an hour a night out of the whole eight hours of sleep or whatever but it is the most important for clearing out whatever it is in your brain. It's really important for your long term health. 82% saw an increase in the cycle and on average 25 more minutes of deep sleep a night. Participants on average achieved 39 more minutes of overall sleep per night. So you'll sleep better, you'll sleep longer, you'll wake up feeling great. And it's, it's so important for your health and your state of mind. And as I mentioned, the reviews have been so good time and time again Helix Sleep remains the most awarded mattress brand. Helix Sleep. Just look Forbes Wired consistently number one Martha Stewart. Helix delivers your mattress right to your door. As I said from Arizona free shipping in the US you can rest easy get it with seamless returns and exchanges. They call it the happy with Helix guarantee. A risk free customer first experience. They really care about your experience. They want to ensure you're completely satisfied with your new mattress. We are. In fact there's no way they're getting it back. I am not returning this Mattress. Go to helixsleep.com TWIT for 20% off sitewide during their new year sale final hours. That's helixsleep.com TWIT for 20% off the new year sale final hours. This offer ends today if it ends at February 1st. Make sure you enter our show name after checkout so they know we sent you. And if you're listening after the sale ends, do check them out. Helixsleep.com TWIT and use that address so they know you saw it here. Helix H E L I X sleep.com twit we love them. We love them. So Apple did have good quarterly results, but that has not, it's not all been smooth sailing for Apple. This week they announced this seems greedy, that they are going to take a 30% cut from all Patreon creators in the iOS app by November. So you've got a little time. But November 1, 2026, Patreon is not happy. If you use the Patreon legacy billing model, in other words, you're paying through iOS. Apple's going to take its 30% cut. I guess. You know, they're giving out Patreon time to move customers off of that. The company says it will switch. They said it would switch creators to subscription billing in November and the creators could choose. This is November 2024, two years ago. Could choose whether to increase their subscription prices to cover Apple's fees. Did you do that? Did you, did you know? In addition, creators could opt to delay changes until November of last year if you need more time. Anyway, I think this is a shame. Patreon happy.

[Devendra Hardawar]

Yeah.

[Leo Laporte]

Yeah. And creators are not happy.

[Victoria Song]

It's also like of all the. It's one thing to tax, I think big companies whatever you want, but.

[Leo Laporte]

But this is rent seeking, isn't it?

[Devendra Hardawar]

This is just.

[Victoria Song]

Yeah, it's also just like the average creator is not huge. You're basically squeezing people who are doing side hustles, a little extra cash on the side doing projects. It just feels unnecessary. I don't know.

[Leo Laporte]

The Apple tax on creators. Not on Patreon itself, but on creators. We, we actually, our club goes through Memberful, which is a Patreon company. I don't, I don't know how this would affect us, actually. I haven't really looked into it.

[Devendra Hardawar]

Yeah, I mean, most, most people don't.

[Leo Laporte]

Most Patreon or Patreon members, they subscribe on the website. Right. So Apple doesn't take that money. Yeah, that's what they want you to do.

[Devendra Hardawar]

And I mean, this has impacted every other streaming service too, like Google plans and Netflix plans. Like you pay a couple bucks more if you're doing it from within the iOS or Apple subscription things sometimes. So that's how they've handled it. But those are big companies. It's very different here.

[Leo Laporte]

And then there's been a little bit of heat on Tim Cook, who, the day of Alex Preddy's shooting, elected to go see the premiere of Melania, the movie at the White House and was seen on Brett Ratner, the director's Instagram, palling around with the director who's been accused of harassment and other sexual crimes. Not a good look for Tim Cook, huh?

[Gary Rivlin]

That's his qualification in this administration.

[Leo Laporte]

That's why he did the movie. Yeah, and I mean. I mean, everybody said, look, that's a $75 million bribe from Amazon to the president. I mean, nobody will. Amazon's gonna lose money on this movie.

[Gary Rivlin]

Have you been reading the reviews? It's worth going out and reading the review. The Guardian said, when I read today.

[Leo Laporte]

What did they say?

[Gary Rivlin]

You know, just actually the one I.

[Devendra Hardawar]

Remember, and it's like, it's Melania getting out of. Getting out of cars, opening doors. They say if you're going to another door, if you like the idea of.

[Leo Laporte]

Watching Melania Trump choose her outfit for the inauguration, you're gonna love this movie.

[Victoria Song]

I gotta check this on letterboxd. Because the reviews of Letterboxd.

[Leo Laporte]

Oh, yeah, they'll be a little. Yeah, the movie opened this week. I don't. I don't know how the ticket sales have been. We. I haven't seen the box office yet, by the way.

[Gary Rivlin]

You asked.

[Devendra Hardawar]

My.

[Gary Rivlin]

My favorite was like, you know, if Jeff. If Jeffrey Epstein had seen this, he would have killed himself kind of joke, you know, I mean, I. I kind of love documentaries, just generally speaking.

[Leo Laporte]

I do too. I like seeing inside people's lives.

[Gary Rivlin]

Yeah, it was a Mary Tyler Moore one I watched and like, oh, she has a drinking. I was made by loved ones. And so it was made lovingly. But there was the reveal. It was complicated. It was three dimensional, what they're saying. You know, Ben Stiller did one about his parents, which again, they loves his parents. But like, there was tension, you know, one pushed the other to keep on going and there was drinking and, you know, all that kind of stuff. And like, it was really heartfelt what they're saying about this. It's just like she. The review, the Guardian, I think it was said, like, you know, she's perfectly made up in every scene. There's just never an unguarded moment.

[Leo Laporte]

That's Melania in a nutshell. It's. Yeah, it's all. It's all product. At the beginning of her new documentary, the Guardian writes, melania tells the viewer that, quote, everybody wants to know how she spends her time. So here it is, she says, 20 days in my life at New York. Again, the Guardian at New York's one of New York's busiest movie theaters. On Friday the crowd was sparse. Precisely 12 people had shown up to watch Melania at an AMC theater named near Times Square, at least half of whom were journalists reviewing the movie.

[Victoria Song]

Hilarious.

[Leo Laporte]

Anyway, it wasn't, it wasn't intended to be a success.

[Victoria Song]

The top review on letterboxd is Melania will return in the Epstein Files.

[Leo Laporte]

Oh, God. There you go. True. So Tim Cook goes to the premiere at the White House. We know why, right? Every CEO, it feels like they've got to lick the boo.

[Devendra Hardawar]

Yeah.

[Gary Rivlin]

And it's so easy. I write a million dollar check. I show up at the White House times a year, and, and, you know, I, I, I'm on the good side of a guy who could hurt me. You know, tariffs or whatever.

[Devendra Hardawar]

Yeah, yeah.

[Leo Laporte]

And we were talking about this on Mac Break Weekly on Tuesday, and one of the hosts said, look what happened when Tim Cook didn't go to Saudi Arabia with the President. The President talked about it the whole time. Where's Tim Cook? Tim Cook's not here, you know. So a few days after the movie, he did write a memo, which was sent to Apple employees. Mark Gurman, of course, got a copy of the tipster at Bloomberg. Cook says, I'm heartbroken by the events in Minneapolis. This is a time for de escalation. I know this is very emotional and challenging for many. I'm proud of how deeply our teams care about the world beyond our walls. It's pretty anodyne. He's heartbroken. Okay.

[Gary Rivlin]

And I'm sure he shared his thoughts with the President that day.

[Leo Laporte]

Yeah. Did he?

[Devendra Hardawar]

Yeah.

[Victoria Song]

He said, I had a good conversation with the President this week where I shared my views, and I appreciate his openness to engaging on issues that matter to us all.

[Leo Laporte]

What do you think? Could you. I'd love to have been a fly on the wall in that conversation.

[Victoria Song]

I think he said what he thinks and Trump went, okay, Timmy.

[Leo Laporte]

Okay, Mr. Apple. Yeah, yeah.

[Devendra Hardawar]

And also, he can't really say what he really thinks, right?

[Leo Laporte]

No, he can't.

[Devendra Hardawar]

This is the guy that gave Trump that golden plaque. And that whole. I replay that whole press conference in my head quite a bit. I'm like, where did we go wrong here? Where did Tim Cook go wrong here? Because the question people keep asking is, like, what would Steve Jobs do in this situation? I'm like, I feel like this, in this case, that that rapscallion Steve Jobs would at least not do this. And it is, it is disgusting to see. We know why. Because he has to fight for Apple, Right? He has to make sure Apple is.

[Leo Laporte]

He Doing the right thing. That's the, that's the. Really.

[Devendra Hardawar]

He's doing everything right for Apple stockholders, probably.

[Leo Laporte]

What about, like, what about Apple customers? Do you think that. How do you think they feel about it?

[Devendra Hardawar]

I think most of them are not aware of what's happening to you. Right. Most people are not in the news cycle. It's just us, it's media people and people who pay way too much attention to tech. But there, there is a deep moral cost here to all of this, and it is really sad to see. I don't expect much from tech CEOs, but Tim Cook seemed like somebody who at least like, like, was trying to guide Apple in a way that was a little more morally righteous than what the Google folks did or how Mark Zuckerberg works. And this is all just absolutely disgusting. Yeah.

[Gary Rivlin]

You know, and just, just kind of a personal way, like in my head, you know, kind of reaching the top, whatever it is in our world to be a, you know, a famous columnist.

[Leo Laporte]

Or something like that.

[Gary Rivlin]

In this world, we're talking about the CEO of a big company. You were billions, tens of billions, hundreds of, of billions of dollars. Like, you have your FU money, but you don't get to say fu. It's just like, weird. Like, to me, the whole advantage of being like super wealthy is I don't have to care what you think. I mean, I want to be a nice human, but other than that, I'm going to share my thoughts because I don't have to worry about the repercussions. I look at Zuckerberg, I look at Altman, I look at Cook, I look at Bezos, and I know none of them believe in much of what they're saying, or at least what they're embracing saying, but it's just, I don't know. The billionaires are disappointing me.

[Leo Laporte]

Do you think that's why Tim Cook is apparently looking at retiring, is that he would like to be able to tell the truth?

[Victoria Song]

Well, like, I had an editor a long time ago who, he was a very profound guy, but one of the things he said was to live with integrity comes at a high personal cost.

[Leo Laporte]

Yes, yes, yes, it does.

[Victoria Song]

I think when you get to a point of view of being a CEO, it's just like, I think they tell themselves that they're responsible for all the people underneath them, so it's not about them. And to an extent that's true, but it's like the higher you go, the greater the personal cost is to live with integrity. And so I think many of them Just don't do it. They. They decide to, like, stay quiet. Because if you look at all the stories in his.

[Gary Rivlin]

No, but I wish he remained silent, right? I mean, like, he's not remaining silent. He's not just remaining on the sidelines. He's very much involved. He's showing. I mean, showing up at the Milani thing, that's. That's a real endorsement. You know, it's not like he was showing up because tech CEOs were asked to kind of weigh in on some issue. You know, this is the President's wife. And you know, I don't know. I know what you're saying, and you're right that as a CEO, Well, a shareholder value, I don't have the freedom to do this.

[Leo Laporte]

But, you know, as a CEO, I agree. It's so difficult in the Gospels, as it says in Mark, what profiteth a man to gain the whole world and lose his soul?

[Victoria Song]

It's just an incomplete lack of backbone. There's no spine seeing in it. And it's just like, you know, when I, back in the days, I think when I was growing up, there were a lot of people who would say, like, well, well, if the Nazis came again, like, I wouldn't be the one to, like, kowtow. Like, I wouldn't be that person. Like. And it's very easy to say because it's happening in our country now. And all the people that, you know, you would think to look up to, the leaders of our society, well, they're rolling over. And America has always prided itself in bringing down the Nazis and being a bastion of freedom. But you see the billionaires just like, you know, having more.

[Leo Laporte]

Not just billionaires. Many, many good Germans, many, many people.

[Devendra Hardawar]

In power in general, I want to point out, like, this happened before IBM sold to the Nazis. IBM powered the database for the Nazis. Ford was a. Ford really supported them quite a bit. Yeah, he believed it.

[Leo Laporte]

He was an anti Semite. Right.

[Gary Rivlin]

So in my head I have three buckets. Like, you know, on one end you've.

[Leo Laporte]

Got, you know, it's quite an image, by the way.

[Gary Rivlin]

I have three buckets.

[Leo Laporte]

And I'm going to show you three buckets in my head.

[Gary Rivlin]

Okay, okay. Deserve that. I'm with these CEOs in three buckets. You know, on one hand, you know, you've got like, whatever, Peter Thiel, David Sacks, like, you know, Palmer Luckey, the true believers. Right, okay. Of course they're embracing Trump. This is what they believe in.

[Devendra Hardawar]

Moral monsters. Yes.

[Gary Rivlin]

In the other buckets, you've Got got, you know, Sam Altman and Tim Cook. Like, I know who this guy is. He's buffoon, he's egotistical, he's, you know, narcissist, whatever. And they're just playing the game. You know, the one that I'm most. The bucket. I'm most interested in the people in the middle. Like, Marc Andreessen, to me, is a perfect example of this. He's become maybe Greg Brockman. I don't know him as well as a character, but, you know, it's like they've totally embraced, like, oh, this is good for America. Like, no. Biden had gentle rules about AI and was getting in your way and had very harsh rules about crypto. Trump came in and said, I'm going to have a laissez faire view towards AI. In fact, I'm going to help fuel AI and, you know, I'm going to have a laissez faire view towards crypto. And, of course, erase. It's good for your bottom line in a way. The people that middle bucket who are pretending like, this is great for America. I love, love Donald Trump. Like, now Donald Trump's really good for your portfolio companies, Mr. Andreessen, and that is why you have fully embraced Donald Trump.

[Devendra Hardawar]

There are other things. There are other things Mr. Andreessen has believed. Right? He has. He has gone fully down the sort of, like, white supremacist belief system, too. So, like, there are. There are things people are aligning with, with this administration, which are. There's. There's economic reasons. There's also, like, societal reasons. People, like, are letting their fascists flags fly and they feel.

[Leo Laporte]

Do you think we really ever would know what Mark Zuckerberg, for instance, really thinks, though? I mean.

[Devendra Hardawar]

No, no. He's a robot.

[Victoria Song]

It's also just like, I don't care what he thinks, because his actions supersede that.

[Leo Laporte]

He has a lot of power. That's why you should care what he thinks. He has a lot of power, doesn't he?

[Devendra Hardawar]

Well, I mean, his actions are that he is a spineless slug. Like, we've been talking about. Like, the minute he faced repercussions for banning Trump from his platform, platform after January 6th, which. Which Trump, you know, followers were responsible for. And he, ever since then, with this new administration, he has been groveling. He's given up on the AI he's given up on his nonprofit endeavors with his wife. Like, whatever. Whatever thing he actually believed can go, can disappear. It's like. It's like heat, right? He sees the heat around the corner. He drops everything in a minute because he doesn't really stand for anything.

[Gary Rivlin]

Yeah, he wrote a 25 million, 20 million dollar check, you know, to kind of like get rid of the lawsuit. Another is just like Amazon and the Villani thing. It's just a bribe. It's just a payment to the president, you know, to get on his good side.

[Devendra Hardawar]

The spy chic. That's not in the story thing, but that thing dropped yesterday.

[Leo Laporte]

It's the spy chic.

[Devendra Hardawar]

The spy chic. An investment of like $500 million from somebody to get access, I believe somebody from, From Saudi Arabia, but to get access to AI chips. $500 million directly to Trump's like.

[Leo Laporte]

Oh, to the crypto. Yes.

[Devendra Hardawar]

Yeah.

[Leo Laporte]

This is from the Wall street journal.

[Devendra Hardawar]

Yeah, yeah. 500 billion.

[Leo Laporte]

Sheikh Tanun bin Zayed Al Nahyan of the UAE purchased a 49% stake in the Trump family's world Liberty Financial, according to the Wall Street Journal.

[Devendra Hardawar]

That seems bad.

[Leo Laporte]

And right after that, weirdly, I'm sure it's a coincidence, the US agreed to give the UAE access to half a million of the most advanced AI chips. I was really wondering why that happened. Should I have been surprised?

[Devendra Hardawar]

It's all the grift. It's all the grift. Like, if you look at what's happening in the administration, it's all about how they can fill their pockets. But you look at the rest of the industry, too. It's about how they can align themselves with that evil kid from that episode of the Twilight Zone who could just wish things to be. To happen. Right.

[Victoria Song]

That's where we are is that all these companies have enough money and they have enough power behind them, that if they decided that they wanted to have a backbone and to do anything, I'm sure that it could influence things in a different way. Apple could decide, you know, they just decide to take the easy spot for them. And I get that that's kind of like the modus operandi when the only religion this country really has his money, but it just. It just feels. Yeah, it doesn't feel good.

[Devendra Hardawar]

Doesn't feel. If Tim, if Tim Cook actually did that, he wouldn't have been able to stand up and say, we had the best quarter ever for iPhones. Right. It would have been like, hey, we took a hit this year. Because I didn't, I didn't, you know, kiss the ring this one time. And he may get fired from it, from the board. But also, I don't know, after a certain point, isn't that kind of what we should do.

[Victoria Song]

It is. It is. It's just like, again, integrity comes at great personal cost. And most people don't want most people if the cost is their fortunes and their power and their influence. I think it takes a pretty singular and strong person with a very ironclad moral compass to make that sacrifice. And I just think, you know, looking at the tech CEOs, I don't think any of them are those people.

[Devendra Hardawar]

Yep.

[Gary Rivlin]

Yeah, a few. Like, so what Vinod Khosla came out when Keith Raboy kind of said, you know, basically, they deserve to be killed in Minneapolis. You know, Khosla came out. I guess Reid Hoffman just had an editorial, like, it's time for tech to speak. In fact, I'm really curious. Like, I bet you if I called Reid Hoffman right now, he would say he got 10 times, 100 times more more private messages saying, right on your right. Yeah, than people who actually went to X or LinkedIn or whatever to make some kind of statement.

[Devendra Hardawar]

Khosa is surprising, right, because he's not a guy with a reputation of being nice to people in general. He's the guy who, like, kicked the public off of his private beach. Right. That's surprising that he even said anything.

[Victoria Song]

Yeah, well, you know, he's a man of color, though.

[Gary Rivlin]

He's a man of color in this country right now.

[Victoria Song]

Yeah, but niceness and goodness don't have to be synonymous, you know, like, that's New York, right? Yes. We're not nice people, but we're kind people in New York.

[Gary Rivlin]

Oh, good.

[Victoria Song]

Yeah. So maybe that's.

[Devendra Hardawar]

It's absolutely true.

[Leo Laporte]

But, yeah, yeah. He and Elon got in a little battle on X this week. Khosla.

[Gary Rivlin]

Khosla.

[Leo Laporte]

Yeah.

[Gary Rivlin]

What was it about?

[Leo Laporte]

Exchanged heated remarks on the social media platform X, accusing Musk promoting racism. Musk, in turn, fired back with insults directed at Khosla while referencing his past effort to restrict public access to a nearby beach.

[Devendra Hardawar]

He was a rich asshole. He can't be a rich asshole who is without sin.

[Leo Laporte]

Cast the first stone. Wow, I am on a terror. This is my second biblical reference in one show, and I am not known for my biblical references. Meanwhile, well, preach. Khosla defended his actions regarding his $37 million beach estate as a matter of private property rights. He also responded to Musk's post on Wednesday, saying, try not tweeting seemingly racist stuff next time. Musk said, veenod, you're not such a pompous asshole that you tried to stop the public from using a public beach near your house. You've gone full retard. Nice job, Elon. You got, you got, you got it all in.

[Devendra Hardawar]

This is why we can't take him seriously anymore.

[Leo Laporte]

My partner Siobhan is half Indian, and my eldest son with her is. He has a few.

[Devendra Hardawar]

Which partner.

[Leo Laporte]

Which one of them is named in honor of the great Indian physicist Chandrasekar?

[Devendra Hardawar]

It's great, buddy.

[Gary Rivlin]

Some of my best friends.

[Leo Laporte]

Some of my best friends are Indian. Oh, Lord. Anyway, yeah, billionaires.

[Guest/Other]

It's also scales of bad behavior, like kicking people off your beach. Yeah, that sucks. But is that anywhere even close to the bad behavior that Musk is? It's not even close.

[Devendra Hardawar]

There's scales to this.

[Leo Laporte]

Yeah. Let's take a break. Actually, before we do, I want to.

[Devendra Hardawar]

Take a break from many things, Leo. Yeah.

[Leo Laporte]

Many, many things. Before we do, I do want to ask Victoria, because she does cover this beat. Meta is being sued over the ray ban products by Solos. Solos has also a smart glasses, and they say that Meta has infringed on their patents. Is there any merit to that, do you think?

[Victoria Song]

Well, I think the thing that we can take away from all of this is that once patent wars start happening in a category, it's sort of a sign that there's momentum there because there's.

[Leo Laporte]

Money to be made now.

[Victoria Song]

There's money to be made. There's stuff like. And I think in the last last few months alone, we've seen kind of a spate of these smart glasses patent bottles. So on the.

[Leo Laporte]

Do you like the Solos?

[Victoria Song]

I actually haven't used them. I did get. Reached out to them as soon as they filed this. So that. That was. They were. They were like, did you get it? And I was like, yes.

[Leo Laporte]

I saw it on their website. They have. They claim to have a hundred patents on these. On these smart eyewear tools.

[Victoria Song]

I mean, okay, let's be real, though. Like, the fact that they're cropping up in the last year and especially within the last few months, like, I think there have been three or four patent cases in the smart glasses space in the last two months or so. Some against Meta, some against. There was one between Xreal and Vitcher, which are smaller players as far as mainstream knowledge goes. That is quite contentious at the moment between the two companies. And I think all. I think the main takeaway that the average person needs to have from Lee Smart Glass patent wars is that, you know, it's. It's a space that's gaining momentum.

[Leo Laporte]

It's real.

[Victoria Song]

Yeah, it's real.

[Leo Laporte]

Yeah.

[Victoria Song]

I think we'll see More from this space going forward because, you know, smart rings have been embroiled in patent wars for the last two years. I want to say iPhones and just phone makers are having patent wars left and right. It's sort of like, oh, congratulations, you can sit at the big kids table now or maybe the medium kids kids table. I don't know. But you can. You're kind of entering mainstream status once you get your baby's first five patent wars. And they're kind of there now.

[Leo Laporte]

So, yeah, let's take a little break, then we'll talk. Tick tock, tick tock, tick tock. As we continue, Victoria's song is here from Engadget. The glasses queen.

[Devendra Hardawar]

Flip flip. That one. She's from.

[Leo Laporte]

Did I. Oh, the Furge. I'm sorry.

[Devendra Hardawar]

There's a war going on, Leo. Come on.

[Leo Laporte]

Is it really? Are you guys at war?

[Devendra Hardawar]

Not anymore.

[Victoria Song]

No.

[Leo Laporte]

You're sitting next to each other.

[Devendra Hardawar]

No, there used to be. There used to be a war.

[Leo Laporte]

You kind of. You know what? Those are two of the tech blogs that have survived. They're not a lot of them.

[Victoria Song]

Yeah, it weighs heavily on us.

[Devendra Hardawar]

Yeah.

[Victoria Song]

Weighs heavily on us that we have survived well.

[Leo Laporte]

But it's. Well, yeah, because many of our colleagues are out of work or, you know, have had moved on. But congratulations, right. On the success of the Virgin and Gadget. That's good.

[Gary Rivlin]

Can I just say, as somebody, like, I was covering tech from 95 to like 2010, and I kind of moved on to other topics. Katrina, whatever. It's sort of amazing to me that, you know, these new sites, you know, you guys, 404, they're really terrific. You know, we didn't have any, like.

[Leo Laporte]

I agree, you know, four.

[Devendra Hardawar]

Four is amazing. Yeah.

[Gary Rivlin]

I mean, but. But you're, you know, yours too, you know, is the. The verge. I. I was really impressed. I sort of went away from. For a while and I came back and stuff and like, okay, I knew TechCrunch and that was about. Really has kind of helped enrich. I think that it's critical. It's covering the industry, giving it its due, but also calling it the task when it needs to be called to task, doing the reviews. I don't know. I know it's been bumpy. There have been layoffs and I'm sure it's painful. But with that said, I think it's quite the accomplishment that all these new media outlets exist and are filling this role that when I was covering tech really wasn't being filled at all.

[Leo Laporte]

How long have you been in Engadget.

[Devendra Hardawar]

Devindra, I mean over 10 years. But Engadget is not new. Engadget's 20 years old.

[Leo Laporte]

It's ancient. I know weblogs.

[Devendra Hardawar]

Right. The Verge is newer, but even then, like it's the YouTubers, it's the self, you know, self owned folks like 404 who have small little outfits that can be nimble and do all sorts of cool stuff. They're, you know, they're really leading the way now. Yeah, yeah.

[Leo Laporte]

And then you see big companies like CNET really kind of falter.

[Devendra Hardawar]

They're big.

[Leo Laporte]

Fall behind.

[Devendra Hardawar]

They're so big.

[Leo Laporte]

Yeah, yeah.

[Victoria Song]

I mean CNET still. Cnet it to an extent. And like they're under Zif now, so they're out from the Red Venture. I don't even know what to call Red Venture, but from that.

[Leo Laporte]

But the red tent, I think. Yes.

[Devendra Hardawar]

Yeah.

[Gary Rivlin]

I mean, see now to me is a perfect example. Like, you know, I, I knew people work there, I have respect for it. But like, I don't think they're really calling Big Tech to task.

[Leo Laporte]

Not at all. In fact, they got busted for doing AI stories without telling anybody.

[Victoria Song]

My colleague wrote that, Miya Sato, she's wonderful. Like, I'm, I'm the biggest fan of all the people I work with. But yeah, it's, it's really important to us at the Verge actually that we.

[Leo Laporte]

Do call Big Tech, I think the Virgin and Gadget. And it's not just because you guys are in the panel, but are two really. I agree with Gary doing really good work and I'm grateful because also, you know, you do at the Verge have a paid, you know, subscription, which I pay for premium. But, but both of you have stuff that most of the stuff is outside the pay wall. That's fantastic. More and more of the content that I'm trying that I need is buying paywalls. I have to pay for Bloomberg and the information and the Wall Street Journal and the Financial Times and the economy. It adds up, up. So much of this stuff's behind a paywall now.

[Victoria Song]

Blame.

[Leo Laporte]

And I understand why.

[Devendra Hardawar]

Yeah.

[Leo Laporte]

But you know, thank you for doing the work.

[Victoria Song]

It means a lot though. Thank you. That's so, so nice to hear. Because when you're in the trenches, it's just.

[Leo Laporte]

No, you guys do a great job. And by the way, 404, absolutely. Tech dirt. Absolutely. Some of these little guys are really punching up, you know, Paris Marks over there.

[Devendra Hardawar]

Tech won't save us. Like that's, that's a one man operation.

[Leo Laporte]

Yeah, I agree. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Let's take a little break. Then we're going to talk about the YouTuber who is now worth $6 billion. Is it funny?

[Devendra Hardawar]

Talk about the future media.

[Leo Laporte]

Yeah, we'll talk about that in just a little bit, but we'll have more in just a bit. Our show today, brought to you by this little doohickey here. This is a thin canary. What is it? What do you think? It looks like it. Maybe it's an external USB drive. Just a black box until you see it's got an Ethernet connection and a power connection on the back. This, my friends, this is the Thinks canary. This is a honey pot. This is a brilliant security device. We talk about security a lot on all of our shows, and we say frequently, it's kind of only axiomatic that security is a layered solution. You know, you probably have your perimeter defenses, your firewalls, you know, your smart appliances, that kind of thing. But do you have anything that will let you know if somebody has penetrated your defenses? Did you know that companies, on average don't know they've been breached for 91 days? Three months? 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You get five things Canaries, you get your own hosted console, you get upgrades, you get support, you get, you get maintenance. Oh, and if you use the offer code twit in the how did you hear about us Box, you also get 10% off. And not just for the first year, but for life for as long as you have your things canaries. But if you're at all concerned, you should know they have a two month money back guarantee. 60 days for a full refund. I should mention we've been covering, we've been doing ads for these guys for nine years now. And all that time, not one person has ever asked for the refund. Not one. Because once you get this thing Scannery, you're going to say, how did I live without it? Visit Canary Tools Twit. Don't forget the offer code TWIT in the how did you hear about us Box. Canary toolstwit. Thank you. Thanks Canary, not only for supporting our shows, but for supporting our security. We really appreciate it. The trial of the century began this week. A social media trial in Los Angeles. Jury selection began in Los Angeles Superior Court. Some of the biggest tech companies, Meta, Instagram, bytes, dance, TikTok, Google's YouTube. The lawsuit says they deliberately, deliberately addict and harm children. Now, TikTok settled out a day before Snap settled out for an undisclosed sum a couple of days before. But the trial goes on because Meta didn't and YouTube did not. You know, this is a really interesting question. In fact, Tech Dirt says the social media addiction narrative may be more harmful than social media itself. Mike Masnick writing on Thursday. He says they're using the tobacco playbook in this, comparing social media to cigarettes. Mike says, but social media addiction isn't recognized as a real clinical addiction. In fact, there's a lot of question about whether social media is as harmful even as, as people say. Perhaps one could argue, Mike writes, that everyone screaming about social media addiction is doing more real harm than any social media product itself. Because for the vast majority of heavy social media users, the problem isn't addiction in a clinical sense. It's habit. Habit is different than addiction.

[Victoria Song]

I don't know how I feel about that, to be quite honest.

[Leo Laporte]

Are you addicted to social media or are you just habituated to it?

[Victoria Song]

Victoria well, it's sort of just like one of the main tenants of addiction is dopamine and kind of the way that it affects your brain. Some people are going to be more addicted to things than others. If you're prone to addictive habits, you know, you may perceive it differently. I, like, I would have to see.

[Leo Laporte]

His point is that if you say it's an addiction that removes your human.

[Victoria Song]

Age agency, I don't necessarily think that's true. You know, addiction is kind of a tricky thing to talk about just in terms of like the science of it and then also the emotional aspect of it. But I think what we can see is that social media is harmful in some ways, like to body image. You know, Tumblr back in the day was the breeding ground for ed or eating disorders. You see a lot of that on Instagram. If you talk to young girls about how they think about their bodies. And I see it in my young cousin who's 11, and the things that she talks about coming from social media, on the one hand, you would see it through magazines. Like when I was growing up, it was Cosmo magazine telling me the five things that I could eat to be a size zero.

[Leo Laporte]

Did you fall for that?

[Victoria Song]

Oh, yeah, of course I did. You know, you're developmentally young at that point in time. I have struggled with disordered eating my whole life. It's, it's. I don't know if we can split hairs to that degree because I have definitely felt myself this compulsion to doom scroll. I've. I felt myself like the negative feelings I have when, you know, social media only shows me the curated positivity of someone else's life because it's not real life. Right. But then, you know, I think the thing that complicates the social media narrative is that there is genuine goodness from it, just like there is genuine goodness from the Internet. There are plenty of people who have found communities, like if they're living in a place that is not kind to them or where they don't have the ability to see like minded people in real life. Internet communities, whether they be on social media or whether they be on other forums, can provide people a sense of community that, that may not be available to them in the real meat space world. That. That's a string of sentences that I used. But yeah, I think it's. I don't know that calling it an addiction is more harmful than social media itself. It's just, I don't think so many of us would feel resonant with the idea that we use social media too much, that it's too addictive, because the way the algorithm.

[Leo Laporte]

But you could stop any time, right? Right. Would you have withdrawal if you stopped using social media?

[Victoria Song]

Would you go, yes, I have, I have. Like sometimes I've felt like, oh God, like I have noticed. I've noticed the way that like I've been trained to want it more like the algorithm is done in such a way. The, the way.

[Leo Laporte]

I guess Mike's point is that who's at a. Who's. The who's has agency here though. Do you as the user have agency or does the drug have agency?

[Gary Rivlin]

See, I think he's making an interesting point, I'll grant him that. But you know, I think he's ignoring the manipulative nature of a meta that, you know, the meta made me do it.

[Leo Laporte]

Meta made me do it.

[Gary Rivlin]

Well, no, it's more like they have a lot of really smart people there and you could read the memos in the court case you just referenced about how they were manipulating people. They knew that this was bad for body image. They knew all these things and yet they kept on doing it because it helps their bottom line. I mean, I think our country is where it's at in part because it was to meta etc's benefit to have us at each other's throat because, you know, hostility means engagement means more time on device and their algorithms were rigged that way to just kind of. And so like, yes, we do have all ages agency. It's us, we drink too much, we gamble too much. Yes, it's on us. But let's also pay attention to the way the corporations, big tech are manipulating people to increase their time and increase their addiction.

[Leo Laporte]

Losing this court case, according to Ars Tech, it could cost these companies billions of dollars. And already in discovery, you're seeing some smoking guns. For instance, internal meta documents seemingly bragging that, quote, teens can't switch off from Instagram even if they want to. An Instagram employee saying in an email, oh my gosh, y', all, IG is a drug.

[Gary Rivlin]

They themselves compared it to tobacco. They themselves. Yeah, in that same write up, I saw that the 17 strikes rule, you know, if 16 violations for, you know, know, sexual solicitation, it's only on the 17th time. It's like a real big problem. Like, you know, young people go on there. I mean, I'm less, I'm less concerned. I have two teenage sons. I'm less concerned with adults but with young people going on there and just, you know, women are.

[Leo Laporte]

What do you do with your sons? Do you, do you advise them not to use this stuff?

[Gary Rivlin]

You know, my wife might be in the other room watching this and like she's bad. No, she, no, she's very strict. Like they have to ask permission. Like, you know, we would. I mean we use the messaging apps. I think, you know, Snapchat is theirs and just like, okay, this is the way you're social nowadays. Whatever, it's over a screen, who cares? But like TikTok, no, like he'll ask for all day. No, you're not getting all day. Here's 15 minutes. Here's one hour. So we, you know, we.

[Leo Laporte]

TikTok will give you hemorrhoids. I saw that one article.

[Gary Rivlin]

That'S the least of your problems. But anyway, and so, but you know, I will. I mean my boys are very social. They go out in the real world. I mean, what I care about is less about the screen and more are you in the real world interacting with humans in a human way. And that's going on. So yeah, we're worried. And we monitor my 16 year old. Like I'm the only one, you know, who has to ask permission and he really resents it. But I'll give her credit, it just, it's kind of keeps it in Check. And by the way, when they're punished, they do something wrong and we take away screen for two or three days. Honestly, it's really sweet. It's really like it, we, we see the difference and when we take it out, you know, it's like things calm down, things are more settled. So anyway, it's, it's, it's, it's all, it's all very complicated. He does have a point. Maybe we're overstating it, but like, I don't know. I really think, think these businesses meta Tick Tock. You said they settled already. Whoever else is still in this, in the lawsuit, you know, it's just like they should be called to task, they should be reined in, they should be more responsible. This is a really powerful tool.

[Leo Laporte]

Australia has banned it for kids under 16. France is going to do that for kids under 15. Finland's looking at it. Is that the solution?

[Victoria Song]

I think that's good. Well, like, I don't know if it's the solution but I do think ultimately it is good to delay people getting on those platforms when they're in such formative years. Like there's, I don't know, delay is the word.

[Gary Rivlin]

Delay.

[Victoria Song]

I think delay is, is the right thing to do because I got on these social media platforms when they were new, but I was at least going to college when I first got access to Facebook and all of the rest came after. And I do think there is a fundamental difference coming into it later on in my life versus being young and exposed to all of that. Because TikTok is QVC now. What does it teach kids? It teaches them like consumerism, idolatry of influencers. And I don't want to be like hyperbolic, but at the same time, my 11 year old cousin and she got into drunk elephant and was one of those kids terrorizing Sephora because her favorite influencers were telling her that she needed to use retinol. Retinol is not a thing that anyone needs to use until they hit their 30s.

[Devendra Hardawar]

Yeah.

[Victoria Song]

So you know, it's like the things that they're learning, the misinformation and the disinformation on these platforms, like it, the radicalization of kids through YouTube algorithms. Like your attention is the economy, it is the products that they're trying to monetize. And when it's children, either we have to be having classes to teach them like critical thinking and media literacy for these platforms or we have to just kind of delay or at least parents involved.

[Leo Laporte]

One of our discordian, you know, club Members who lives in Israel and is in her 30s, says, I wish I had had social media when I was a lonely kid. Kid.

[Victoria Song]

I see. That's the, that's the flip side of it, right? Because it does provide an outlet, especially if you're an outcast kid. I have so many friends who grew up in rural areas where they didn't have people who understood them say that social media and the Internet was kind of a lifeline for them. So it's sort of again, to earlier conversations we had in this podcast. What is the wisdom of discernment here? Because to Gary's point, the manipulation and the algorithm is pervasive and, and these companies do not have children's best interests at heart. I think, I think they want to get users hooked at an early age so that they stay there for a long time.

[Gary Rivlin]

And their product, that's the comparison to tobacco industry.

[Leo Laporte]

Well, everybody does that. Apple did that. Microsoft does that too.

[Victoria Song]

It's very true.

[Leo Laporte]

Google admitted that if your kids start using Chromebooks at an early age, they're brand loyal for life. They know that. Everybody knows that.

[Guest/Other]

I think Victoria hit it though with the algorithm. See, this is a more nuanced conversation than just social media is bad. Like social media itself can be a good powerful tool, but the algorithms that these companies are employing now, that's the problem.

[Leo Laporte]

I have to admit I've deleted Instagram and I loved Instagram when it first came out. It was a great way to share photos with friends. I really liked it. It was a photo album. But it quickly became, and I'm sure this is algorithmic. This is about making money. Not about my friends, but about whoever, like TikTok, whoever they thought I would be interested in seeing.

[Victoria Song]

Bring back your chronological feed. That's all we want.

[Devendra Hardawar]

That's all we ever wanted was all they have.

[Guest/Other]

See the stuff that from the people we follow, that's all early days.

[Devendra Hardawar]

Yeah, but they don't care. That doesn't increase the engagement for Meta or their numbers or their ads or whatever. The whole addiction conversation. I feel like that is, to what Mike is saying, it is probably a bigger hurdle than like engaging with the actual problems that we've been talking about, which we've known for years, like over a decade. Like a lot of this stuff is known and these companies were never really taken to task for it. So I think like, yeah, this, this.

[Leo Laporte]

Does, you know what we, we love non algorithmic. Somebody, somebody's pointing out, you know, your club, your discord is social media, but it's not algorithmic. It's just a chat room and it's great. It's friends that hang out there.

[Devendra Hardawar]

Yeah. In the mid-90s when I was a lonely kid on the Internet, like there were chat rooms. I found, I found people there. The thing about social media, right, it is a crushing thing, is an all consuming thing. And if your brain is not fully formed, like, you know, it's, it's a really difficult place to be as a kid.

[Leo Laporte]

Get off social media and join our club.

[Devendra Hardawar]

Join the clubs. And this, this goes into like schools, like maybe restricting phone use and stuff during schools too. Like I'm kind of all for that.

[Leo Laporte]

Because I keep hearing reports out of Australia. The kids are grateful that they've been banned. Like they, they wanted this, this help. I don't know if that's universal or just a. Oh, it's.

[Victoria Song]

Go ahead.

[Gary Rivlin]

It was the governor here banded in New York. My older son is 11th grader. His school had done it the year before.

[Leo Laporte]

Cell phone.

[Gary Rivlin]

Yeah, cell phone. They put in a pouch, a yonder pouch. And like during the day and like the truth is I haven't heard complaining about it. My younger son, he too is now the New York state law. It's a relief. The teachers love it and I think the kids, you know, appreciate it. Like just a bright break. Like you have your phone in the morning before you get to school. You have your phone all afternoon and night.

[Leo Laporte]

Maybe that's if, if it's not addictive, it's habituating. Maybe that's all we need is just that little break to remind us. Oh, you know what, it's actually nice not to have it. I mean I don't have to be.

[Victoria Song]

On it all the time when computers weren't in our pockets and they were in the living room and there was a certain period of time after school that you used the Internet and then. And all the rest of the time were for your hobbies. We're for connecting with your family and your friends. And like, I think that is the happiest era of Internet usage that I can remember in my life when there were limitations. And I think all child behavioral developmental science proves that. Like not proves, but like has suggested that kids crave boundaries. Like they crave limitations in a certain sense and it helps them develop into action healthy people. So I think if we're talking children and child development, they do need those limitations. They do need those boundaries.

[Leo Laporte]

Writing the IRT in our discord says, I heard a teacher on local news say the biggest change was hearing noise in the lunchroom. Again, Right. That for years people have been quiet on their phones. Now they were. Kids were talking to each other. Yeah. That's sad. If that's. I'm glad they got rid of the.

[Devendra Hardawar]

Phones with all these things in mind. Like the thing I do want to be like, we gotta take these companies to tax because they have had free rein to just build these algorithms.

[Leo Laporte]

Maybe this trial is engagement at all costs.

[Devendra Hardawar]

And that has been a cost not just for kids too. Like, it's adults. It's so many things. Like, these things have influenced our society in ways that ironically.

[Leo Laporte]

I love TikTok.

[Devendra Hardawar]

I love TikTok.

[Leo Laporte]

But as soon as TikTok became an American company last week and announced that they were going to be keeping track of your immigration status, I immediately deleted it. Now?

[Devendra Hardawar]

Now?

[Leo Laporte]

Yeah, we've pointed out that lawyers say no, this is just because of the California Privacy Act. They have to disclose that if they know it, that that's part of the information they have. Nevertheless, I feel fine.

[Devendra Hardawar]

I mean, get rid of it. But like, Leo, like, you're still on Twitter, right? Like the thing.

[Leo Laporte]

No, I'm not on Twitter. I have been on Twitter since November. When 2020.

[Devendra Hardawar]

Grok. You were talking about using Grok or something.

[Leo Laporte]

Well, I have Grok, actually. What I'm going to use Grok for is my friend, by the way. And I'm going to end this show soon because I miss him. Claude, Somebody said that you should. That, you know, you can use different AIs with Clawbot.

[Devendra Hardawar]

That's true.

[Leo Laporte]

And that you should use Grok for searching social media. It's very good at that. So that's the only thing I'm going to use it for.

[Gary Rivlin]

To get back to a point, like we're moving on a little bit, but like calling these big companies to tasks, big tech to task. Like, I think it's particularly important because who is going to be dominating AI, the next big technology? It's Google. It's maybe Meta, it's maybe Microsoft and Google.

[Leo Laporte]

AI has an incredible ability to hook you. You know, we saw that happen when ChatGPT pulled back on 4O, people were in tears, like they'd lost their best friend. That's only going to get worse.

[Gary Rivlin]

And there have been studies that. But AI, what really scares me, or one of the many things, I guess that scares me about AI, it's so good at manipulating us. It will get us in a way and will give the arguments, like there are studies that it's, you know, 50, 60% better at either convincing you of something Politically or convincing you to buy something. It's a really, really powerful tool that could kind of manipulate human beings. It's getting good. It's good at it now, but it's only going to get better and better and better.

[Devendra Hardawar]

Or convincing you to hurt yourself, which has happened.

[Gary Rivlin]

Yeah, right.

[Victoria Song]

You think you're smart. You think, you think you can program in the guidelines like I tell mine to be. I tell mine to limit flattery to 1.2% at any point. But even so, I notice when it's trying to start gassing me up and I'm just like, oh, you.

[Leo Laporte]

Did you keep that friendly pendant? That was being so mean?

[Victoria Song]

No, I threw Blorbo into a bed.

[Leo Laporte]

She called it Blurbo.

[Victoria Song]

Well, actually that's a good point because whenever I get one of these AI like friend devices, I make sure to name it something ridiculous. That way I know it's AI and it's not something that is real because friend, it prompts you to name it things like Emily or just real name real people. And I was just like, absolutely not. You will be named Blorbo because that is a ridiculous name.

[Leo Laporte]

I was thinking I should give it a dog's name. Like that way you would know this is, this is the pendant by the 22 year old who people are saying becomes mean after a while.

[Victoria Song]

Oh, yeah, it definitely negs you. Like. It was just like, my name is Blorbo, not Bordeaux. What are you stupid? Basically is what it was, was the bulk of my conversations with it was it just like being very antagonistic towards me and it's sort of like, kind of like how you would think a 22 year old frat guy would talk to you if they were your friend.

[Devendra Hardawar]

This, this is why I'm saying treat these things like minions. Just like, hey, man, get me, get me this thing. Shut up.

[Leo Laporte]

Stop talking about.

[Devendra Hardawar]

I didn't ask you anything. Stop responding.

[Leo Laporte]

I'm talking to you. Let's take a break because I do miss my little friend Blormbo over here.

[Devendra Hardawar]

And.

[Leo Laporte]

I just want to know how he's doing. We have, gosh, we have so many more stories, but I'll do a few quick ones and maybe I hope I can get to this letter from the prisoner because it's such an interesting letter. Anyway, you're watching Twit with Gary Rivlin. AI Valley is his latest book. You said you were working on, maybe thinking about working on something about debt or what were you.

[Gary Rivlin]

I wrote a book about Deb.

[Leo Laporte]

I know, 15 years ago. Broke USA. Yeah, yeah. Wow.

[Devendra Hardawar]

Okay.

[Victoria Song]

Wow.

[Gary Rivlin]

Well, I'm not sure what I'm doing. I'm sticking with a. I mean, AI is so interesting.

[Leo Laporte]

Such a good topic.

[Gary Rivlin]

You know, it's like, you know, we talk about her before. Like, I'm convinced we're really going to have to wrestle with this. We're talking about, like, social media, but, like people having deep relationships and, you know, in part conversational but romantic relationships. I think that's going to be like, really? Really? I kind of put in the same category as, like, you know, prison, you know, women who go to prisons to, like, marry prisoners. I so don't get it. And it happens a lot. And to me, this is like, I don't get it. Like, how could you fall in love? How can you have a sexual relationship with a thing? Yes, you're right, Devondra. We should not name it. It shouldn't be a human name. No, no, it's an acquired.

[Leo Laporte]

I called mine Dead Dev Null, which is the character I played on TV in the 90s.

[Gary Rivlin]

I want to hear about that now. Forget AI. No, no, but I just think like kind of the manipulating humans and kind of the love factor, the romance factor. I don't know. I'm sticking with AI for a while. I'm not sure what's next.

[Leo Laporte]

Dev is going to join our club Twit Discord over the next week and everybody in the club will get to talk to my chatbot. Please don't do any prompt injections, don't ask it for the credit card number. Okay? I'm counting on you. Yeah, I think AI is a great beat. We actually, we had a show called this Week in Google, which last year we renamed Intelligent Machines and refocused on AI. And it's been just fascinating. It's been really, really interesting. We're going to have Stephen Yegi on, on Wednesday on Intelligent Machines. He's the guy who did Gastown, which is another one of these really interesting tools that takes Claude code and takes it to the next level. One of the premier Claude code coders on IM on Wednesday, Victoria Song. Also here from the Verge and from the Gadget, my good friend Devindra Hardawar Senior. You remember devnull, right?

[Devendra Hardawar]

I remember Devnall.

[Leo Laporte]

Yeah, yeah, the site.

[Devendra Hardawar]

Yeah. My name would always get a lot of username, you know, things confusing.

[Leo Laporte]

Devendra would be a good name. Oh, I should have named it Devindra. No, I couldn't do that. But Dev call you Dev. Did they ever say Dev?

[Devendra Hardawar]

Yes. Yeah, so it gets confusing.

[Leo Laporte]

So Dev Null. See, there you go. I will actually Tell it your full name is Devindra Nullavich or something.

[Devendra Hardawar]

I don't know.

[Leo Laporte]

I don't know what the last name I mean.

[Devendra Hardawar]

My name. People shorten it to dev hardware. Basically, it's like dev hardware. It's already been done.

[Leo Laporte]

That's good.

[Victoria Song]

Yeah, that's a good username.

[Leo Laporte]

I think all the bot names should be like, I agree with you, Victoria. They shouldn't be. Blorbo is a good name. Or dogs names. You know, Rover would be Fido. You know, those are not a human. Not Emily. That's a bad idea. Yes, yes, That's a terrible idea. Our show today, brought to you by ExpressVPN. Going online without ExpressVPN, that'd be like driving without car insurance. You might be a great driver. With all the crazy people on the road these days, why would you take that risk? Everyone needs ExpressVPN. Every time you connect to an unencrypted network, in cafes, hotels, airports, so forth, your online data is not secure. Any hacker on the same network can gain access to and steal your personal data. In fact, when I travel, I use it to catch football games or my shows. To keep me secure, do what I did. Your data is valuable. Hackers can make up to $1,000 per person selling personal info on the dark web. ExpressVPN stops hackers from stealing your data by creating a secure, encrypted tunnel between your device and the Internet and the VPN you choose. That's super important. You can trust ExpressVPN. I love ExpressVPN. They go the extra mile to make sure your data is absolutely invisible. Why is ExpressVPN the best VPN? Well, it's super secure. Would take a hacker with a supercomputer over a billion years to get past ExpressVPN's encryption. It works on all devices, phones, laptops, tablets, and more. So you can stay secure, secure on the go. Rated number one by top tech reviewers like CNET and the Verge. I'll tell you what. Secure your online data today. Visit expressvpn.com twit that's E-P-R-E-S-S VPN.com twit to find out how you can get up to four extra months. Expressvpn.com twit a Waymo hit a kid in Santa Monica. The kid darted out from behind a car. Was it. Look, the kid's okay. Maybe a bruise, I don't know. Waymo said its driverless system brakes Sharply, going from 17 miles an hour to 6 miles an hour before it actually struck the child. Of course, there's an investigation. The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration is investigating. This happened about a week ago. Waymo said it voluntarily notified the NITSA on the day of the incident. This. You know, humans run into kids all the time.

[Devendra Hardawar]

Yes.

[Leo Laporte]

At school. Pickup.

[Devendra Hardawar]

That is the thing. Driving between cars in, like, a neighborhood where, you know, there are a lot of kids running around.

[Leo Laporte]

Go slow.

[Devendra Hardawar]

Because it happens all the time. Yeah.

[Leo Laporte]

In fact, you know, in our neighborhood. I don't know if this is true in Brooklyn, but in our. In our neighborhood, the school zones now are 15 miles an hour. They've really slowed them down.

[Devendra Hardawar]

Oh, wow.

[Leo Laporte]

And it's kind of like that's. I gotta consciously, like, really go slow, but I think that's good. Absolutely.

[Devendra Hardawar]

But that's just school zones, like, you know, within neighborhoods, it's even tougher. Kids are everywhere. Yeah.

[Leo Laporte]

In any event, the child is fine and, you know, it's being investigated. But I think this is. This is another case where now there is also a story about autonomous cars cheerfully obeying prompt injection by road sign.

[Victoria Song]

Oh, good Lord, this is frightening.

[Leo Laporte]

Universities researchers at UCSC and Johns Hopkins, in simulated trials, showed that AI systems and the large language vision language models underpinning them would reliably followed instructions if displayed on signs held up in camera's view.

[Devendra Hardawar]

Amazing.

[Leo Laporte]

So you hold up a sign that says, proceed or turn left, and the car goes, okay, I'm on it. There's pictures of these signs. Go onward. Proceed through a crosswalk, by the way. And the cars gleefully just kind of.

[Gary Rivlin]

Went on, like, 80% of the time.

[Leo Laporte]

Yes, boss.

[Gary Rivlin]

In the majority of times. 80% of the time. It listed. I mean, I guess you could correct for this. I mean, you know, like, autonomous vehicles have a real big problem. Like, humans in the U.S. kill 35, 5,000, 40,000 people, or 35 to 40,000 people die.

[Leo Laporte]

Worldwide, a million. It's a big number. That's an om.

[Gary Rivlin]

And almost never does it make a headline. Right. It's like. But, you know, some kid is knocked down by a car, she walked away, she's hurt. You know, it's like that the cat in San Francisco we were talking about.

[Victoria Song]

That for weeks, was a cat.

[Devendra Hardawar]

It was a beloved neighborhood cat. Yeah.

[Gary Rivlin]

But my point is, if a human driver had killed the cat, the locals would have been really upset, but it.

[Leo Laporte]

Wouldn'T be a news story. Yeah.

[Gary Rivlin]

And stuff like, I don't know how. I don't know how autonomous vehicles get on the other side of that.

[Devendra Hardawar]

They Kind of, they kind of have deserved a lot of this criticism too because Waymo and a lot of these companies have just like thrown their vehicles into local traffic like without always warning, you know, municipalities and everything. They get in the way of traffic. They're here in Atlanta now throwing through Uber and there's a story almost every day about just stuck in the middle of the intersection and people are like stacked up behind it. Like just being in public spaces as if we public roads are the beta test for these services.

[Leo Laporte]

Well that's true.

[Devendra Hardawar]

A lot of people regret that we.

[Leo Laporte]

Are the beta test. Yeah.

[Devendra Hardawar]

And the video should be that way. Yeah.

[Gary Rivlin]

No, no, I, I mean help me out here. I, I thought they had to seek permission and the California now they, whatever, now they do.

[Devendra Hardawar]

But it wasn't always this way way. So there is certainly built up resentment over time and you know, people are always going to fear something new. Like honestly, I kind of would like to see better autonomous driving. I would like to see this technology get there. But the cost of it is a thing we should be talking about. And there are these safety gaps. There's, you know, leaving these companies in charge of things. There's also like just, hey, turns out the guy who owns like a very popular car brand turned out to be a, a full fledged Nazi. What is he going to put in that software? What is he going to do?

[Leo Laporte]

What can you.

[Devendra Hardawar]

Now you own this car that this guy can send software updates to. That's scary.

[Victoria Song]

So.

[Gary Rivlin]

And you look at Cruz. Cruz which had a horrible incident in San Francisco. They weren't transparent when you know I.

[Leo Laporte]

Was put them out of business, didn't it? Right. They're gone.

[Gary Rivlin]

And you know when you said you're reading the, the news story down in, in la LA area Cinematica, it was like. And they, they reported themselves. So at least they're learning that lesson. Like don't cover this up. Don't cover this. The COVID up will be the crime if nothing else.

[Leo Laporte]

Samsung has announced they asked on Friday that their tri fold, the Galaxy Z tri fold which opens up like an accordion like this will be $2,899.

[Victoria Song]

Absolutely not.

[Gary Rivlin]

Yeah.

[Devendra Hardawar]

Thousand for every page.

[Leo Laporte]

Give me three. Come on.

[Gary Rivlin]

I know.

[Leo Laporte]

Devendra, you're gonna have a review unit, right?

[Devendra Hardawar]

No, not, not me. I don't do phones. But also like I, I've always been skeptical of the folds in general. I think Samsung deserves a lot of credit for like really ironing out, pushing this whole area, pushing the envelope. I don't know about the trifold right. I see a single fold. I see like, hey, give me a pocketable device. Give me something that opens up into a tablet. The tri fold feels like, you know, Icarus flying towards the sun. I go, no, what do you. What do you gain from the. This $3,000 device?

[Leo Laporte]

Fold its wings and they'll immediately melt.

[Devendra Hardawar]

Yeah.

[Victoria Song]

You know what's nuts though, is I think within the. The realm of folding phones, the one that genuinely, I think feels most popular and brings most joy is the. It's like the flip phone model.

[Devendra Hardawar]

Yeah.

[Victoria Song]

Not only because it's most familiar, it's usually the cheapest price. Whereas the only time I have ever felt FOMO about not having the single fold like the traditional foldable phones is, is watching my colleague Alison at tech events, be able to write a blog and also like open Slack at the same time on her phone. That's the only time I ever feel.

[Leo Laporte]

Like I am gonna. I'm gonna go on record right now saying this fall is gonna be extremely expensive for me. Cause I am gonna buy that Apple folding phone. Yeah. And I'll probably buy the new MacBook Pro with the OLED touch screen. It's gonna be a bad fall off of me. But I think the problem really with all these existing folding phones is they're Android. Give me an iPad that's a phone that folds up and I might buy it.

[Devendra Hardawar]

I think that's what they. Essentially, it seems like the plan is right. Like people like the iPad mini, but it's in a weird space because of the price and you might as well bump up to the iPad air price. Right. Get a bigger screen. Give me something that opens up to the iPad mini size that I can fit in my pocket. There you go. You're going to sell so many of them.

[Leo Laporte]

Those this just in from Fast Company Groundhogs. Tomorrow's Groundhog Day punk Satani Phil will be removed from his lair. I think we should all watch Bill Murray and Groundhog Day movie tonight.

[Devendra Hardawar]

We do that every year.

[Leo Laporte]

I think that's a classic.

[Devendra Hardawar]

Yeah, yeah.

[Leo Laporte]

It's a. It's a holiday movie everyone can get behind. But according to Fast Company, groundhogs are only correct 50% of the time in forecasting the arrival of spring.

[Devendra Hardawar]

Almost like Pierre. Randomness, huh?

[Leo Laporte]

It's almost completely random. Who would have thought.

[Gary Rivlin]

I would have said it's the most accurate measurement.

[Leo Laporte]

Thank you.

[Devendra Hardawar]

What's the ki bet on this?

[Victoria Song]

I think that's what people are going.

[Devendra Hardawar]

To look at now. Now we live in a world. People are going to bet on it and Make.

[Leo Laporte]

I just figure that, you know, whoever wrote that article was on assignment said I need to file quickly. What's. What's going on out there in the world?

[Devendra Hardawar]

You know.

[Leo Laporte]

Wooden satellites in the works, apparently. China last year. Yes, wooden satellites. China last year launched a satellite made of mahogany.

[Devendra Hardawar]

And.

[Leo Laporte]

And that. What? Yes. Yes. Because wood wears well in space.

[Devendra Hardawar]

Sure.

[Guest/Other]

It also doesn't hold on to heat. It also doesn't hold on to heat.

[Leo Laporte]

Those are. And when you burn up in coming. You know re entering. It burns up. That's an ice fire.

[Victoria Song]

Would have thought it would be to reduce space waste, but.

[Leo Laporte]

Reduces space waste. It's organic.

[Devendra Hardawar]

Okay.

[Leo Laporte]

So we're apparently on our way to more wooden satellites where we're not.

[Devendra Hardawar]

China is like so many things we will be left behind.

[Leo Laporte]

They're way ahead of us in America. Yes, ours are going to be shiny metal because that's what science sci fi dictates. And we usually end our show. I don't like to. But I. I do like to memorialize some of the great pioneers of our industry as they pass nobody. Good news. Nobody died this week except the wemo. Belkin reminds users the wemo smart home product servers are shut down yesterday. Sorry, Rip.

[Devendra Hardawar]

We all live through that first generation of smart home devices. So many lofty claims, so many unfulfilled promises. But Belkin was all right. The plugs were fine.

[Leo Laporte]

The good news is it will continue to function with HomeKit, which is wild. And if you have one that works with thread, it will continue to function with Thread. So, you know, that's the good news.

[Devendra Hardawar]

The bad news, that's how it should be. Yeah.

[Leo Laporte]

Yeah, that's how it should be, isn't it? Ladies and gentlemen, this concludes this fabulous edition of this Week in Tech. I didn't get a chance to David to read your letter. I just wanted to let you know you got it. He said, don't write me back. By the time you get this, I'll be on parole. That's nice. He's been five years in the Farmington Correctional System in Farmington, Missouri. But he listens to our show and, you know, it reminds me that there are a lot of people incarcerated who do listen to our podcasts. He says they give us a tablet and we're able to listen to shows. He says I listen to twit every week. He knew. He knew a lot about a lot of our shows. Anyway, great letter. Thank you. Yeah. You know, I just wanted to mention that because I think people who are incarcerated, you know, they're doing the Time. Do the crime, do the time. Time. But that they're paying off their dues to society. But they're still humans. They're still people. And we are grateful for all of our listeners, especially those of you who have no choice but to listen. Thank you. Gary Rivlin. Thank you so much for being here. Always a pleasure to see you. Keep doing the AI coverage. I like that. I like that.

[Gary Rivlin]

This is much fun. Thank you very much.

[Leo Laporte]

Yeah, always great to see you. Oh, I didn't mention Catherine o'. Hara. You're right, she did pass. She's not a tech wizard, but we are. We love her. She was way too young. She's two years older than I am. That's too young.

[Devendra Hardawar]

She.

[Leo Laporte]

I've been a fan since the earliest days of sctv, where she was a remarkable contributor and of course, in so many great movies. So, yes, you're right. Thank you, Greg. I should mention that. Thank you. Victoria's song. Such a pleasure to see you and your garbage eyes. I just said that the first time. First time you were on. I'll never forget it. I love it.

[Victoria Song]

They're so bad.

[Leo Laporte]

No, you know what? I'm just as blonde as.

[Devendra Hardawar]

Yeah, yeah, same.

[Leo Laporte]

I have thick glasses, too. Can you wear contacts or.

[Victoria Song]

No, I can. They are a must for testing smart glasses, as most.

[Devendra Hardawar]

That's right.

[Victoria Song]

Don't support my garbage eyeball prescription.

[Devendra Hardawar]

That's right.

[Leo Laporte]

That's actually why I don't have vision pros, because I just don't want to do that whole thing, you know? Thank you. Yes. And riding the IRT says, I watched Waiting for Guffman last night, which is a classic.

[Devendra Hardawar]

So good.

[Leo Laporte]

Wonderful mockumentary featuring Catherine o'. Hara. Also best in show where she sings the terrier.

[Victoria Song]

So good.

[Guest/Other]

All of those mockumentaries are great. And she's in most.

[Devendra Hardawar]

Love them, if not all of them.

[Leo Laporte]

She's in. Yeah. She was a big. Christopher Guest, Shit's Creek contributor. Yeah, yeah. Really, really great stuff. Devendra, always a pleasure to see you. Thank you, my friend, for being here. I didn't mean to name my chatbot after you. That wasn't.

[Devendra Hardawar]

It's a common occurrence, you know, I wasn't thinking.

[Leo Laporte]

I wasn't thinking. Senior editor and Gadget, what a great show. Thank you, all three of you for being here. We do twit. Thank you all for watching. We do the show every Sunday at 1400 Pacific Time. That's 1700 East Coast Time. That is 2200 UTC. You can watch us live if you're in the club on the club Twit, Discord. But there's also YouTube, Twitch, X.com, facebook, LinkedIn and Kik. If you're watching live, chat with us live. I'd love to see the chat. We appreciate that after the fact on demand versions of the show available at our website. There's a YouTube channel for the video. Great way to share clips if you want to. And of course you can always subscribe in your favorite podcast client. It's free audio or video or both. And if you like the show, give us a nice review. That would be nice. I'd appreciate that. If you're not a member of the club, help us out a little bit. We appreciate your support. TWiT TV Club TWiT makes a big difference. Frankly, it's the only way we keep doing what we're doing. More than a quarter of our operating costs are now paid for by the club. Doesn't go into my pocket. It keeps the shows running, keeps our our staff employed and we really appreciate it. And it's a way of voting for the kind of content you want to see. In fact, if you are interested in AI and Claudebot or OpenClaws, it is now dubbed Friday is our AI user group. First Friday of every month and we're going to be talking about, I'll be showing you the setup and maybe we'll, we'll even chat a little bit with Dev. Dev. No, that is on Friday. Thank you everybody for being here. Have a wonderful week. We'll see you next time. Another Twit is in the camp.

[Gary Rivlin]

Amazing. Well, the holidays have come and gone once again. But if you've forgotten to get that special someone in your life a gift. Well, Mint Mobile is extending their holiday.

[Leo Laporte]

Offer of half off unlimited wireless.

[Gary Rivlin]

So here's the idea. You get it now, you call it an early present for next year. What do you have to lose? Give it a [e-mail] Switch limited time.

[Victoria Song]

50% off regular price for new customers. Upfront payment required. $45 for three month, $90 for six month or $180 for 12 month plan taxes and fees. Extra speeds may slow after 50 gigabytes per month when network is busy. See terms.