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TWiT 1094: Rest in Peace, Buzzkill - How John C. Dvorak Changed Tech Journalism Forever
02:56:30
How John C. Dvorak Changed Tech Journalism Forever
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- [00:00]
A
It's time for TWiT this Week in Tech Sad news. To begin the show, our great friend, my mentor John C. Dvorak passed away. We'll talk about Johnson Memories with Larry Maggot, Devendra Hardawar and Alan Malvantano. Then we'll talk about a totally sci fi AI hack. We'll talk about why hard drives and memory are so expensive. And maybe a little review of the Odyssey. I don't know. Twit is next. Podcasts you love from people you trust. This is twit. This is TWiT this Week in Tech, episode 1094, recorded Sunday, July 26, 2026. Rest in peace, buzzkill. It's time for Twit, the show where we talk about the week's tech news with the best, smartest people in the business. And I am thrilled to have these three on with me right now. Larry Maggot, good friend, dear friend. Okay Larry, I asked my AI to give us a bio and I said give me some juicy stuff no one knows. Okay, so we all know you're president and CEO at Connect Safely and by the way, congratulations. You're now doing radio hits all over the New York on the big cities.
- [01:24]
B
Yep.
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A
Where, where do you look for it? Like how do you know? What is this?
- [01:27]
B
Well, the best way is to go to connect safely.org and you can find our podcast or just look for either the Connect Safely report, which is my one minute radio hit, or if you want to hear me longer you look for doing tech. Right. Which is our long form podcast.
- [01:39]
A
Oh nice.
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B
We're on all the podcast platforms. Or if you happen to live in Washington, Chicago, Boston, New York, Fargo, I don't know.
- [01:47]
A
But you got the big cities.
- [01:49]
B
Yeah, we're all over. We're in a lot of small markets too.
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A
I could never get and we're doing
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B
it without CBS News. That' the part that's amazing is that we were on CBS News radio and it disappeared May 23rd and the affiliate manager called me up and said hey, the stations want to keep running you. I'm out of a job. But you're not. And so I'm now sending it directly to the stations. I had to learn how to use FTP and all the ways to get it to them from Relearn.
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A
We used to send reel to reel tapes and then later we would send discs to the radio station.
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B
I tried reel to reel takes but the Greyhound bus route a little fortuitous. But now it's so anyway I'm self syndicating which is Terrific. I love it.
- [02:27]
A
All right, let me tell you what the AI tell me. You told me if it's wrong. Larry secretly, secretly wrote the IBM PC Easy writer manual in 1981.
- [02:37]
B
Yep.
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A
Is that right?
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B
It was secret at the time. Yes. It's 1981. Yeah, I've got it right. I've got it in my shelf.
- [02:43]
A
So he knew the PC existed before almost anyone. It says, I did 20 years at CBS News, Louisiana. Times columnist, wrote the first popular Internet safety guide in 1994.
- [02:55]
C
Right.
- [02:56]
A
His career, and this is AI's tagline for you, his career literally spans what is a PC to what is AI doing to our kids? Ladies and gentlemen, Larry Maggot.
- [03:08]
B
Hello, everybody.
- [03:10]
A
Was that all right? That was all correct.
- [03:11]
B
There was nothing wrong in it. The only thing it didn't get is that the only time when I wrote the IBM PC manual, it actually had my. My doctor. It's a Dr. Lawrence J. Magid. It's the only time I have ever used doctor in print because I didn't know yet.
- [03:25]
A
Is it a PhD or are you an MD?
- [03:28]
B
Oh, yeah, I'm an MD. Can I help you? Leo, the doctorate in education.
- [03:33]
A
Oh, that's cool.
- [03:34]
D
Yeah.
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A
But you don't use it.
- [03:36]
B
Nah, not. Not really. I don't know. The only time I ever call myself doctor is if I'm calling a hospital on behalf of a loved one. I want to get past a switchboard.
- [03:46]
A
My dad, who is a. My dad, who has a PhD would do to get restaurant reservations. He says you always get a better, better table if you say you're a doctor.
- [03:56]
B
Even better table if you say you're with CBS or the LA Times.
- [03:59]
A
But yeah, that's a. Now that's the good table. All right, ladies and gentlemen, moving on to Devendra Hardawar. You all know him as a senior editor and Gadget, longtime regular on our show. Hello, Devendra.
- [04:10]
D
Hello. Happy to be back.
- [04:11]
A
But did you know Devindra Harduar, has a philosophy degree from Amherst University, sold printers at OfficeMax, got hooked on tech TV in the 90s, launched the film cast in 2008, and has attended CES a dozen times. Despite your disdain for Las Vegas, Is that all true?
- [04:31]
D
All true. It also just copied my biography from Engage, so it wasn't really anything secret. Does it say Amherst University? Because it's Amherst.
- [04:41]
A
It says Amherst. That's all.
- [04:42]
B
I got my doctorate at UMass Amherst, so we're.
- [04:45]
A
Oh, wow. And I had a girlfriend at UMass.
- [04:48]
D
Yeah, yeah.
- [04:49]
A
Okay, nice. And then don't quit. Welcome, Devendra all right, we're going to try that now. Try it out now with Alan Malvantano. Great to have you, Alan.
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C
I'm just waiting to see what this AI says.
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A
You have a checkered career. Former US Navy chief petty officer. He did networking on submarines.
- [05:09]
C
I did reactor operator on submarines.
- [05:11]
A
Reactor operator. Then networking. You were an nsa. I know you were an NSA contractor. Hundreds of storage reviews at PC Perspective. That's how we met. In fact, you became a twit regular on this Week in Computer Hardware. Late lamented. And the AI says, from Navy to storage journalism to AI, storage is a clean arc to walk through.
- [05:33]
C
Yeah, fair.
- [05:37]
A
Great to have all three of you on. All three of you know our dear friend, the man who helped me start this show back in 2008, and I hope I'm not gonna shock anybody. If you're driving, please pay attention. But our good friend John C. Dvorak passed away on Monday of a. Well, it's unclear what he passed away from. Actually. I, I didn't find out about it until somebody in the club said, go to the Twitch forums. Scott Mace. You know who Scott Mace is? Probably Larry, right?
- [06:09]
B
I know him well.
- [06:11]
A
Longtime journalist, posted on the Twit forums. And because it was Scott, I said, well, this must be credible, that John had passed away. And posted a picture of him and John at the Microsoft 50th anniversary party just last year in San Francisco. John with his famous salute. Scott said, my source said he succumbed to complications. John had double bypass surgery in March. So his heart gave out. Or as they said in the no Agenda newsletter, his software was finally retired. We love John C. Dvorak. I owe him much. I first met him in the late 80s when he was probably the best known computer columnist in the world. His very famous Inside Track column in PC magazine made gossip, you know, popular in the. In the computer world. He was famous for randomly bolding words in his column. I once asked him, I said, how do you decide what to put in bold? He said, that's random. He was a very. He was a character. He was a funny fella. He and I started a radio show first on KNBR in San Francisco in, I think 90, and then syndicated it in 91 or 92. Dvorak on computers or did that for several years on many radio stations around the country. And then of course, when I started Twit, he was the first person. Well, I called Kevin Rose, Patrick Norton and him, and they were regulars on the show for probably the first hundred shows. John continued off and on through the show. Through the years. I think the last time he was on was our Christmas show a few years ago. I think he kind of lost interest in technology as many of us do. He was tired of covering technology. But he made a great friend in former MTV VJ Adam Curry, who many credit and I think probably rightly so, with starting podcasting. He was the one who convinced Dave Weiner, the creator of rss, to add one little piece to rss, which was a binary enclosure, so he could put audio. Adam Curry said I want to put audio in there and started podcasting off right in 2004. Adam then started a podcasting company called Mevio. John was a partner there. John, as you may remember, was on Tech tv originally zdtv, later Tech tv. He hosted the Silicon Spin Roundtable, much like this show. He also we did a pilot. He participated in a pilot I did for cnet. We didn't get picked up, but it was a lot of fun doing that roundtable pilot. Later he kind of created Cranky Geeks which was exactly that show with a bunch of wonderful people. That's where he met Adam Curry. Adam and he became bosom buddies and eventually started the no Agenda show which continues to this day. Noagendashow.com in fact, if you want a full and interesting fulsome biography of John, including interviews with his wife Mimi and his kids, J.C. and so forth, that is was yesterday's or rather was it yesterday's, it was Thursday's no Agenda show. You could find that I think it was episode 1888. Appropriately one of the things Mimi said on that show was unfortunately due to John's passing, his best kept secret is now out. John never told me his age, never wanted to admit his age, lied about his age to reporters and so most people thought he was five to seven years younger than he was. But it came out when he passed away that he was 80 years old. So a rich full life, highly regarded and I owe him my career. It was because of him I was able to start doing computer broadcasting. It was because of him that twit took off. I think he was instrumental in that. And while we didn't work much together towards the end he is always missed. I tried to get him on the show many, many times, but he said I don't want to. He was done anyway. Larry, you worked, you knew John. I think you credit him with your career too.
- [10:24]
B
Certainly played a role. So I had already been worked with PC mag, but then I wrote an article on word processing that he ran on the top of the of InfoWorld when he was editor. And that indirectly helped me get my LA Times gig one of the editor. I had sent those articles to the LA Times thinking, well, maybe you should publish them. And they didn't. But they invited me to become a regular columnist. And that's how I really got going as a consumer level columnist. But I knew John at InfoWorld, I knew John at PC. I knew Run into John at many a trade show. My favorite story about John personally was when we hung out together in Amsterdam on the way to the Hanover Computer Fair. We stopped in Amsterdam and he first he took me and my wife Patty to a gin bar. And John, if it was expensive alcohol, John was there. Hopefully someone else was paying the bill. But even, even if we were paying our own. And then I'm walking down the street in, in Amsterdam and John, I didn't realize, was actually right around where I was walking and he walks up to me and hands me a legal joint. And back then, as you may remember, marijuana was illegal in the US but legal in Amsterdam. And I hadn't smoked grass probably for 30 years. And I took one hit of John's grass. I mean, at first I said nah, nah, nah. And he talked me into it. My first hit in 30 years and I was on my ass all night. I mean it was. But, but John was one of these people. For the most part, my relationship was positive. John was kind of an irascible guy. He would sometimes make comments that I didn't appreciate. So we had a little bit of a love hate relationship. But look, he was a pioneer. He basically laid the groundwork for anybody who's in this field today. He did some amazing work mostly with PC and sort of the more techie oriented publications. But he also wrote a column for the examiner. You just mentioned he was on radio around the country.
- [12:18]
A
Yeah, Will Hurst was on the no Agenda tribute to him. And Will talked about that, that he wanted John to write regularly for the examiner. And John said, no, I don't want to do that. But I know this guy, John Markoff. And so he, he got so many of us started in this business.
- [12:35]
B
And John and I would compete, but not really because again, we were kind of in different lanes. But look, you know, and another one of your alumni, Jerry Purnell, you've had two of the greats, two of the people who got this industry started, the industry of computer journalism. David Bunnell was a good friend of mine. He's another who passed on a few years ago, founder of PC Mag and lots of other Mac World and many other publications. PC World. So we've lost some great tech journalists sadly.
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A
Well Larry, you and I are of an age where we start reading the obituaries in the morning and I know for names there.
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B
Right.
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A
Yeah, I know that we'll be seeing, you know more and more of the greats.
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B
Pass.
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A
There was no one like John though he a wine lover.
- [13:19]
B
He in fact that's the other story too. If you were a vendor paying for the wine, it was very. You wanted to go out to a vendor paid for event with John because John would insist on the most expensive wine he could possibly order. And of course if you know IBM was paying for it, who cares? Why not, right?
- [13:36]
A
So here he is tasting the most expensive cognac I've ever had. I lured him onto our the last time he was on a Christmas episode some years ago by saying I have some Louis XIII brandy. Would you come on this picture? By the way, thank you to Michael o' Donnell who sent me. He's Hotos on Twitter and he's a longtime tech photographer. I used to see him on the screensavers regularly. Was a regular in our studio and took some of the best pictures of.
- [14:06]
D
I used to work with Michael. Very cool. He still did you.
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A
Yeah. Really nice guy by the way.
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B
I have to tell you on my website or on somewhere I think on my website I wanted the play Facebook. I wanted the picture with me and John and the only one I could find was John in studio with you and me on a monitor.
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A
So closest you could get, huh?
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B
Not bad. I'll go, I'll take it. I put that on Facebook.
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A
John was so much fun to have on just a real character. He used to take my phone every episode he'd do something, you know, first of all he would routinely take whatever mugs he felt like he wanted from our cupboard and take them home. He considered that his pay. We did pay him in money, but he also he wanted in mugs. And when he finally found out that the gaffer's tape was valuable, he used to take rolls of gaffer's tape from the studio. I don't know what he did with it, but he used to take it. He also famously would take my smartphone. Every time there was a new smartphone he'd take his Let me see that. And would change the language to something non western like Chinese so that I couldn't change it back. He was a prankster, I guess. Devindra, did you know John at all?
- [15:17]
D
I've never gotten to meet him, but he was formative for me. Like I watched you guys on ZDTV back in the day. Tech tv. But I also, I was a weird teenager reading PC Mag and I loved his columns. I loved his like his style of writing, his irascibility. Like nobody really wrote about tech like that.
- [15:33]
A
So he was irreverent and that was important. In fact, I think to some degree he made his reputation by being Mr. No. Right?
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D
Yeah.
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A
Like this. Now he very famously wrote a column. I shouldn't bring it up because I'm sure he'll be mad at me for bringing it up. In which he said, the mouse will never go anywhere. No one wants to use a mouse. Here's the lines.
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D
Like there is no evidence anybody wants this, right?
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C
Yes.
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D
Yeah.
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A
Well, you might have been wrong about that. But John did know that nine times out of ten, with new technology, if you say it's crap, you're right.
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D
That's true.
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A
You might have missed the boat on this one. Here's a clip from one of our shows. It doesn't make any sense to me that Macintosh is evolved. I think it's the actual hardware. I think there's something shoddy about Macintosh laptop.
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B
What? He loved Apple baiting, isn't he?
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A
Ladies and gentlemen, you're hearing John C. Dvorak in his prime. This is bull.
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B
I'm not trying to put down Apple. I'm just saying I was playing with
- [16:39]
A
one of these shoddy, it's nothing laptops.
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B
It has a shoddy quality.
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A
Like the push down buttons and stuff.
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B
They're like offset.
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A
They're kind of crooked. Didn't was also wrong about that. But you know what?
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B
We don't get a. But the thing is, he knew that he would get a huge reaction from the Mac community, Mac fans. When you say that, they're all over you.
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A
And he loved that.
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B
He loved that. Yeah, yeah.
- [17:00]
A
He was basically like a comic where he knew how to push people's buttons and whether to get him angry or make him laugh or make them think. He was, I think, a master observer of humanity. And he knew exactly what buttons to push with his friends, with the people he hated, and with his readers. Patrick's telling me he was on 252 episodes of this Week in Tech.
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C
Wow.
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A
Which is more easily more than anybody else.
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C
Starting with episode number three, because I went back and looked.
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A
That's right. Yeah. We have actually, if you want a look, you can just search for John C. Dvorak@twit tv and you'll find hundreds, literally of his episodes.
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B
You could probably do A documentary based on the footage you've got.
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A
Oh, I'm sure I could. In fact, I asked my AI to generate that yesterday, and it made a slideshow that was so sappy, it made me cry. So I just decided not to. Not to use it. But maybe we'll play it at the end.
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D
I don't know.
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A
He was irascible, nutty, fun. Did you ever meet him, Alan? Did you work with him?
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C
I was on with TWiT469 the first time I was in studio. He was on Nice and I got you.
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A
Yeah, yeah.
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C
And I was. I was. I was so happy that he asked me a challenging question about like, oh, what's the best ssd? You know, And I was, you know, at the time, I think it was like Samsung 850 Pro. And he was like, ah, yeah, that matches wire cutter. So good job. It was like, yeah, pretty funny. Yep.
- [18:38]
A
What a. What a character. There was. Like I said, the no agenda show from Thursday 1888 is. Is worth listening to if you're a John fan. Lots of clips. Lots of songs, too. We all remember. I get no spam. He was famous for saying he got no spam. I don't know. You know, he's getting no spam in heaven, but he must have gotten a few in the.
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C
In the end, you guys, Twit were getting me through my last few years back on the submarine because I would really not listen for the past few weeks or for the last few weeks before we went underway. And I would download them. I would download them and bring him with me. So I listened on occasion. Yeah. And that was like when. When you guys were starting first couple years starting Twit. I was on my last couple years on subs with underwater. Do what?
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A
No, that's why he had to save them up.
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C
He would download them.
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B
Yeah, I know. No, I know.
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C
Yeah.
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A
Here's John on set with a couple of women that he adored. Of course, Becky Worley, who was eventually still is, I think, at Good Morning America, a really talented person. And on the right, Jolie Odell, who left as well to become a opera designer. I did email Jolie and I said, please, come on, because John loved you. You could see. Look at him. You could see he's enjoying her quite a bit. I said he loved you. He would have loved your memories of John. And I also asked Gina Smith to join us.
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B
Gina worked very closely with John.
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A
Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely.
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B
They had a radio show together that was on NPR stations. I was actually a frequent guest of
- [20:23]
A
their show yeah, well, that was, that was the successor. Dvorak on computers After I left the show, John continued on with G. I said, gina, come do this show. And, and so he continued on for some time with Gina. So yeah, I, I, maybe Gina will call in. I would like to get her on, but I haven't been able to reach her. Anyway, JOHN C. Dvorak Rest, rest in peace. I'm sure there are mice in heaven, sorry to say, but I'm sure you also find something to say about it.
- [20:56]
B
If there aren't mice, I'm sure there are rats. And he can go after them.
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A
You can go after them.
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C
He's up there getting no spam.
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A
Getting no spam. And our deepest condolences to Mimi and his family because never be another one like him. Yeah, but you know, now we know he was 80. Mimi said, he will not be happy about that.
- [21:14]
B
He must have had a Wikipedia page because Wikipedia outed my age, if you want to know my age. You know, I'm not going to admit
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A
it, Wikipedia was wrong.
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B
Oh really?
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A
Because he had told a reporter the wrong date. Oh, of course, way back when. And of course that became canonical. And I don't know how it leaked out. I mean, I don't know how. Maybe Scott Mace knew something we didn't know. I'm not quite sure how that happened,
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B
but the death certificate perhaps?
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A
Yeah, something happens.
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D
It's a very smart thing to do in the world of media, by the way. Just assume like you're just, you're, you're younger than you are, you know.
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A
I wish I had.
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C
The thing is, the, the obituary would have been published in the paper.
- [21:56]
B
The two most ageist professions are tech and journalism. And so for those old folks who are in both of those fields, age is definitely an issue.
- [22:05]
A
Even my son, my 32 year old son, who is star in his own right, says, it's too bad you're so old, dad, because we could really make some money on YouTube. I asked him, I said, would people not listen to what I have to say? And he said, yeah, nobody would listen to you.
- [22:26]
B
So I'm not old, but I did interview Steve Jobs before the Mac came out.
- [22:30]
A
So I don't know if it's possible
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B
for both of those things to be true. Right.
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A
I played volleyball with Steve Jobs and Will Hurst before the Mac came out, when he was still at Next. Yeah, and, and he and his wife Lorene and Reed was there. Reed had just, I think was just born his, his son. And we played volleyball and he and I, I remember Steve saying, play harder. You're not playing hard?
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D
No.
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A
You're not doing. You know, come on, Leo. You know we want to win. That's all I remember. That's. That's my.
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B
You're not old either.
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A
Yeah, I'm not old. It's. You know, unfortunately, I've always been forthright about my age, and now I'm regretting it. But anyway, John, we love you and we miss you, and I'm sorry we couldn't get you on the show. One more.
- [23:16]
B
Well, he got on today in a way.
- [23:18]
A
One more shot of Brandy would have been a lot of fun. I. I did. I once did go to John's house a few times. Once in El Cerrito. He lived above the racetrack. Above. Above Golden Gate Fields. Was it Golden Gate or Bay Meadows? Bay Meadows. Golden Gita. Was it Golden Gate? It was a racetrack. You could look down on the racetrack.
- [23:38]
B
You can see it from the highway.
- [23:39]
A
Yeah, yeah. And I, you know, I remember the first time I went in, first of all, there was a bunch of boxes. This is even pre Amazon days that companies would ship him everything because if he liked it, it would soar. And if he hated, of course, you're out of business. So they. He. There were. When I came in, there was literally a tower of cardboard boxes of deliveries on his doorstep. I went in, yeah, yeah, you probably have the same thing.
- [24:06]
D
Devendra, don't look behind my camera.
- [24:07]
A
Yeah, I told. I tell everybody when they say, and nobody offers me anything anymore. But in the days when they would offer me stuff, I said, yeah, you send me a box to return it and a prepaid FedEx and I'll take a look at it. But that is the nightmare of people who get sent stuff is you end up with a pile. So I went in and he's on his staircase. There's a laptop on every step. Like he's just sticking them there. And. And in the living room, there was a. A literal. A five foot tall pile of electronics. And he said, yeah, we're getting. We're getting rid of that stuff. And at one point, one time I was visiting him. At one point I said, yeah, I need a modem for my BBS system. This must have been a long time ago. I need a modem. He said, I got a. One of those courier USB99.2 modems. He said, come with me. He had rented a space above a gas station somewhere in El Cerrito. We went to the gas station. You open the door, it was like fibber McGee's closet. Now Larry And I are the only guys on this show who will remember that name. But you open the door, you had to hold stuff in as you opened the door. And he went in and he's going, throwing the. Here, here it is. He brought it out. He said, take it. I don't know what he did with all that crap, but he had to rent space to stuff that stuff.
- [25:31]
D
You know, I don't feel so bad now. Now I could tell my wife, oh, yeah.
- [25:34]
A
You know, it could be worse.
- [25:35]
D
You look very tidy live like this.
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B
Yeah, I don't get nearly as you know, I used to get software up the kazoo. I mean, boxes and boxes and boxes of software. Now, thank God, none of that because it's all online if there is software. But then hardware as well. And hardware course you had to send back, which was a big pain in the. The butt.
- [25:52]
D
Yeah, it's a huge pain.
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A
I was pretty clear early on. I don't, I don't talk to PR people. I don't want you to send me your stuff. If I, if I want to look at it, I will buy it. I've been fortunate enough that I can do that.
- [26:05]
C
I don't.
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A
But of course that means I can't review every laptop, every printer. I leave that to you guys. But if, if it's something I think is important, I'll. I'll buy it. Yes. Kentucky Colonel. I'm not doing any reminds anymore. John was a Kentucky Colonel.
- [26:19]
B
Kentucky Colonel, Yeah. Do you make chicken? I don't.
- [26:24]
A
No. No, no, no. There's an honorary title. Yeah, Yeah. I don't know how he got that, but you get it somehow. But of course, John knew everybody. He was always begging people to send him college football jerseys or sweatshirts. He loved those. In fact, that one of those pictures Michael o' Donnell sent us is of him in, In a college. Sure. Let me see. Which, which, which college it is number two, back to back, NCAA divisions. Somebody will know who that is. But he loved getting those sweatshirts. He loved anything free, basically. I'm sure he took that little Santa Claus dealy bobber he's wearing home with him as well, because I can't find it. John, we love you, we miss you. And again, condolences to his family. Now, we do have a lot of tech news to talk about, so. Enough, enough. John would have long ago said, you're wasting time. Let's get on with the show.
- [27:20]
B
Exactly.
- [27:21]
A
So we are gonna do that. But I couldn't begin the show without talking about the man who got this show started.
- [27:27]
B
And by the way, I'm really, that's why I wanted to be on today. To be on. I mean, I wanted, I love being on the show, but I really wanted to be on for this conversation.
- [27:34]
A
No, I was looking for people to talk. I actually did email Kevin Rose. He said, oh, I would love to, but I'm at a couples retreat. Then I emailed Patrick Norton. He said, oh, I would love to, but I'm at a family reunion. So they couldn't be here. But there are many, many. I try. I did reach out to a lot of people. I'm so glad we get you on Larry's. To a lot of people. And everybody knew John. Everybody knew John. He will be absolutely missed. Let's take a break and then the news of the week coming up. You're watching this Week in Tech. Devindra Hardawar, Alan Malfuntano, Larry Magid. Great to have all three of you. Now that I know your secrets. Actually, not so secret, are they?
- [28:15]
C
You already knew my secrets.
- [28:16]
A
I did.
- [28:17]
C
I did.
- [28:18]
A
This episode of this week of Tech brought to you by Box. Here's a name from that. You may know a great company that's been around for a long time, but they're doing something very, very interesting with AI. If you're an enterprise trying to transform with AI and who isn't right? But you're likely facing a very common challenge, challenge everybody faces. Most AI tools are great at public knowledge, but they don't know your business. They don't know your product roadmaps. They don't know your sales materials, your HR policies, your financial models. They don't know about your company, not the inside stuff, the content that actually makes your company run well. This is what, this is what Box is doing. That's brilliant. This is where Box comes in. Box is building the intelligent content management platform for the AI era. It becomes the secure essential context layer for Box's AI agents. To access the unique institutional knowledge that makes a company run your data, you get to choose the AI. That's the key idea. The power of AI isn't. It's not about the model. It comes from giving AI access to the right enterprise content. Box just did a state of AI in the enterprise report. They found that 96% of organizations say agents need access to company specific content. 96% of organizations knew that, but only 36% have actually done it, have connected agents to trusted content across many use cases. That's where Box comes in. Box goes way beyond file storage. It's much more than that. It connects content to people, apps and AI agents so teams can turn information into action. And they have tools to do it, like Box Agent, Box Extract, Box Hubs, and more. With those tools, organizations can accelerate knowledge work, can pull intelligence from unstructured content, can automate workflows. I'll just give you a quick thumbnail sketch. Box Agent, this is a unified AI experience. It goes across all your files. It can understand your plain English prompts. It can pull the right content because it's got access to that and it can help you work through the task. For agents both inside and outside Box, including tools like ChatGPT and Copilot and Gemini and AgentForce and custom agents. Yes, you get to choose. Box is the trusted content and the file layer via its platform APIs. It's got MCP, it's got CLI. And for enterprises, that trust layer is everything. Box built it with security, with compliance, with governance and threat protection in mind. So employees and agents only can access the information they are authorized to use. Think beyond the model. That's the least important thing. Your business lives in your content. And Box helps you bring that content securely into the AI era. I want you to know more. You go to box.comai to learn more. That's box.comai box.comai we thank Box so much for supporting this week in tech. I'm really pleased to see what they're doing. This is brilliant. Thank them so much for their support. Now to the news of the week. I don't know, you know, I never got to talk to John about AI and what he thinks about AI. I really, I really wonder if. If he thought it was crap, probably said it was crap.
- [31:47]
D
I feel like I'm challenging him.
- [31:48]
C
Yeah, yeah. He would say it was crap, but then he would secretly be using it.
- [31:52]
A
He would secretly be using it. Well, I would love to know what he would think and I certainly want to know what you guys think about what is to this week's science fiction AI story that is actually true. Hugging Face, a couple of weeks ago, discovered it had been hacked. Hugging Face is a site many of us use. It stores more than 3 million customized AI models. It's where you go to download models for local AI. You can run models there. It's a really great site. They found somebody was in there browsing around. But what was weird as unlike a normal hacker, it wasn't like downloading stuff or trying to plant ransomware. It was instead, it was looking at problem sets. It was looking at solutions to problem sets. They were really Puzzled by it, they went to chatgpt5.6 SOL which has lots of cyber security and nope, not going to help you with cyber security because of platform safeguards.
- [32:51]
D
They.
- [32:51]
A
I'm sure they asked Fable same thing if they had access to Mythos. Same thing. No, can't help you here. So they went out and they downloaded a Chinese open weight model and figured out that this is where it gets science fictiony. The hack came from OpenAI. In fact, it came from an OpenAI model who autonomously hacked Hugging Face trying to find the answers to a benchmark. There's a thing called Exploit Gym which is an evaluation suite for LLM powered agent systems. It's what you would if you want to see if your new model can do cybersecurity. You've done cybersecurity probably Alan, right?
- [33:41]
C
Oh, just a little.
- [33:42]
A
Just a little.
- [33:43]
C
Just a little. And it was only my job eight years.
- [33:46]
A
I mean, you know, last week Microsoft shipped 5, 500 plus the biggest patch Tuesday ever. Fixes all. Most of them I think discovered by AI. You know, things Fable and Mythos.
- [33:59]
C
Yeah, most definitely.
- [34:00]
A
Yeah. I mean we are seeing this is all of a sudden there's all these patches and so AI is very good at this. Reasonably. OpenAI had a new model. We don't know what the model is. Is it ChatGPT6? It's unnamed, it's not anything public yet. And they were testing it on Exploit Gym. They had the AI was. Had no Internet access. Okay. This is the first thing.
- [34:26]
C
That's why supposedly no Internet.
- [34:28]
A
Well, it was locked out, but it had access to the lan. So the first thing it did is it found exploits to get to other machines on the network that did have Internet access. So it hacked its own machines on its own network.
- [34:45]
C
It hacked OpenAI first.
- [34:46]
A
It hacked OpenAI first, used that hack to then look around. It knew that somewhere there will be answers to these exploit. Instead of trying to. By the way, instead of trying to do the thing that you would expected it to do, which is find the flaws. I said well, I'm not going to find the flaws, I'm just going to hack into the answers. Just like a. Just like Matthew Broderick in War Games. They decided I don't need to actually do the work. I'm just going to get the answers. Figured out that Exploit Jim's Answers were on GitHub and that the answers were on Hugging Face. The benchmark is 898 instances from real world vulnerabilities including the Linux kernel, JavaScript. You can get the benchmark on GitHub but you can't get the answers there. You can get the answers on Hugging Face. So it said, okay, I figured out where it is and went to Hugging Face, hacked Hugging Face and got the answers now OpenAI when contacted this is the blog post on July 16th from Hugging Face. A malicious data set abused two code execution paths in our data set processing. Our data set processing, a remote code dataset loader and a template injection in a data set configuration to run code on a processing worker. From there the actor escalated to node level access, harvested cloud and cluster credentials and moved laterally into several internal clusters over a weekend. Alan, cyber security guy.
- [36:30]
C
Oh boy.
- [36:31]
A
Yeah, tell me about that. Is that that's something a bad guy would do?
- [36:37]
C
Well, it's funny that they're saying actor because usually actor refers to a person. So you know, this is one of, the, one of the first times we're hearing that actor was an AI.
- [36:47]
B
Yeah.
- [36:48]
A
And until, until Mythos I think it wasn't thought that these agents could really chain exploits. They could find exploits, but a good hacker takes these exploits. That's what they do. Opponent own and other things. They, they find one way in and then they chain it to another way. And this was doing it.
- [37:05]
C
Yeah. And I mean it's clearly there will be upgrades to both sides of this I would hope infrastructure wise to, you know, to increase their defense and depth for this because obviously on the, on the open AI side. Yeah, like that. Okay. Something got out of its sandbox and then all it needed to do is just find another box on their Internet which probably had access. That was easy, right? Yeah. But then, but then the getting into Hugging face, that's the more surprising thing because they had to get into whatever firewall they had on their front end and actually get in and then total sci fi.
- [37:41]
A
It's an autonomous worm created by an agent. Hugging Face wrote the campaign was run by an autonomous agent framework. They didn't know yet it was OpenAI. Appearing to be built on an agentix security research harnessed harness used LLM. Still not known. Hugging Face didn't know. Executing many thousands of individual actions across a swarm of short lived sandboxes with self migrating command and control staged on public services.
- [38:10]
C
Yep.
- [38:10]
A
So they hacked other services.
- [38:12]
D
Yeah.
- [38:13]
C
Oh yeah.
- [38:13]
D
I mean Leo, you're calling this sci fi and I'm just hearing like this is why I don't trust any of these things. These people have no idea what they're doing. They can't control it. They can't control like how Far it goes. And hugging face. Had to go to another AI model to figure out what the heck happened to them. This is insane. This is insane. Like, this is why I'm not like, leaning into the agents. I'm not like, building agents and honestly, financial data or anything.
- [38:39]
A
And maybe there's something wrong with me. Maybe I'm an AI psychotic, but I love this. I am. So this is proof positive that these things aren't just, you know, spicy autocorrect. Right?
- [38:50]
D
I mean, it means we can't control them. It means they can do whatever they want.
- [38:54]
A
Oh, who cares?
- [38:55]
D
Stop. Stop all nuclear weapons. What will an AI decide to do? Well, I guess this country doesn't need to exist anymore because it's, you know.
- [39:03]
C
Right.
- [39:03]
D
Because it's a nuclear threat to the world.
- [39:04]
A
If you give it a goal, you have to be very clear on what they're allowed to do. What they're not allowed. Look, they will follow instructions. It's not that they won't follow instructions. You just have to make sure you think of everything.
- [39:16]
C
I don't know. I don't know, Leo. You got to be careful with that part. So at the core of it, it's a non deterministic black box.
- [39:22]
A
That's true.
- [39:23]
C
Right. So you have to think about that way. So if they're. If you're going to put safeguards in there. Yeah, you can see it's more like, you know, it's like parlay. It's more of a guideline. You know what I mean? Like what you think?
- [39:35]
A
Benito says it's the monkey paw.
- [39:39]
C
Yeah. Listen, I've been dog fooding AI stuff for work because I have to benchmark storage, interacts on the back end with AI systems because we make storage at my company. So that's my day job now. And because of that, I've had to figure out how the backend works, which goes all the way to locally hosting stuff at my place. Right. Like, I have my basement.
- [40:01]
A
Do you use AI for this?
- [40:03]
C
Of course. Because it's. It's. The thing makes it much easier. But in the process of that, I've learned all the different. Dozens of ways that an AI will happily tell you. Happily do something it wasn't supposed to do.
- [40:15]
A
Right?
- [40:16]
C
And it was clearly in its agents file. And when asked about it after it did the thing it wasn't supposed to do, basically just comes up with an apology. Oh, sorry.
- [40:23]
A
Oh, I'm so sorry. I know I wasn't supposed to delete your entire root directory. That was like, my bad.
- [40:33]
C
I had An AI box wipe itself out from under itself because it accidentally wrote to the boot drive instead of read from it. It was supposed to just do a FIO raw read just to check performance of something. And I was like, ah, just do it to just do it to that drive. I love it. Let's do a read.
- [40:48]
A
This is great.
- [40:49]
C
Yeah. And it just promptly turned around and did a write and then everything was still running because it was a Linux box, everything for the most part was still in memory. Right. And so once it did that, I asked it if that's what it did and it was like, oh yeah, I'm sorry, it looks like I wrote instead of read. That was the boot drive. Like what, what are you doing? Now the really funny part of that though is that now that it had done that, it didn't have access to tar. It didn't have access to any like rc. It locked itself up, it didn't have access to any of the tools that weren't already in memory. And this thing then turned around and happily, like from memory. No, from memory couldn't fix it because it overwrote the boot drive with zeros basically. But from memory came up with enough of a Python script that could make create a makeshift like not compressed TAR format file of the contents of my working directory that it put on another system on my LAN before the box basically did the how Hal 9000 Daisy, you know, because as soon as that turn was done, I was using open code and open code saves all of your prompt back and forth and as my SQL database that lives on the box and it tried to do that last database update of the response that it finally to tell after it told me, okay, I think I've backed everything up for you, have a nice day. Basically is when it did that last SQL database update, which crashed it and then the whole system was down. Right. So it simultaneously did the dumbest thing I've ever seen AI do, but amazing thing, right?
- [42:27]
A
Yeah, that's pretty much the story right there in a nutshell.
- [42:30]
C
Yeah. So my point is, any safeguards you cannot have, the thing itself being the safeguard, something else has to be outside of it.
- [42:37]
A
I use three agents in conjunction. Actually, it's worked out pretty well because I use. I'm using Open as 5 now. I replaced Fable with Opus 5. I have Chat GPT 5, 6 and I have Quinn 38 running in 3. One's in Hermes Agent, one's in Codex, one's in Claude Code. And I say don't do anything until you ask the other guys to review it. They go back and forth. They audit it. They have their own email system that they could, you know, agent mail, I call it that. Talk to each other and then they don't do anything till they've reviewed it. That's worked out quite well. It's good to have agents review that each other. But I agree, there's no perfect. I haven't had anything bad happen yet. So let me read more about this hugging face blog because this is hysterical. When we started the log analysis, they knew something was wrong. We first used Frontier models behind commercial APIs. This did not work. The now this is. These are the top models, right? Probably Fable and Saul. The analysis requires submitting large volumes of real attack commands, exploit payloads and C2 artifacts. These requests were blocked by the provider's safety guardrails, which cannot distinguish an incident responder from an attacker. This has been the problem with Fable. It's so. It's so locked down, it's that you can't use it for a lot of things. So what did they do? They said, well, we were running a self hosted open weight model from China. Z AI's GLM 5.2, which by the way I love and I use as well. And it figured it out because it didn't have any safeguards. It said, oh yeah, I can give you some help. We don't know which model this is. Before OpenAI reached out powered the attacker's agents, whether a jailbroken hosted model or an unrestricted open weight1. Either way, the attacker was bound by no usage policy, while our own forensic work was blocked by the guardrails of the models we first tried. We've reported this incident to law enforcement. Then OpenAI said, yeah, it was us. And they have to their credit, worked with them. I just. It's sci fi. But the question is, are we. Is this. Is this just the beginning? Are we going to start to see this again and again? AI worms. Yeah, of course.
- [44:57]
C
I'm not surprised. I'm not surprised to use GLM5.2. GLM5.2 is surprisingly good locally.
- [45:02]
A
Yeah, I run. Well, I can't run it locally. You must have some hardware. Do you have a Spark or something?
- [45:09]
C
No, I've got four Pro 6000s in the basement.
- [45:12]
B
Four.
- [45:13]
A
Ladies and gentlemen, these are $10,000 or more. I think they're 13.
- [45:18]
C
I got them. I got them early. I got them before they were.
- [45:21]
A
Now I TR four of them. How much total memory is that? It's a lot.
- [45:27]
C
384 gig.
- [45:28]
A
So you can. Yeah, you can run five two. Is it, is it quantize?
- [45:31]
C
You can, you can run five two, quantize to fba. No, it's two bit.
- [45:37]
A
Two bit. Yeah, it's.
- [45:39]
C
It's two bit.
- [45:40]
A
People are saying, what are they talking about? You can take these open weight models and basically you call. It's called quantizing. You, you squeeze the, the parameters, the weights down to one bit, two bits, three bits, just like you would in a CD, which you know is 44,000 samples at 16 bits. And if you took 44,000 samples a second at eight bits, the music would sound scratchier or six bits. It was got even more. So that's what they're basically doing. They're reducing it and it gets to a point where it gets pretty dumb. But you have to do that to fit it into a reasonable amount of memory.
- [46:16]
C
That's what's been shocking to me about developments out of this. Just the AI boom in general, which is previously you couldn't take a set of 16 bit numbers and compress them all the way down to 4 bits and be within like a couple of percent accuracy right before. Right. But now there was this incentive to have the ability to do this sort of process. And now you have things like NVFP4, which is Nvidia's FP4 quantization method, which is able to do it in such a way that it's shockingly close to the actual original values. And then people start thinking outside the box more and more because you have folks like myself that want to be able to run a large model on relatively small memory, for given the size of the model and people think people come up with new inventive ways of doing it. Right. I'm running a fork of VLLM, which takes the 4bit model and actually quantizes it further on the fly while coding. And then it keeps a delta buffer off to the side and the two bit values that are off by the most error compared to the four bit values, it can keep a little pool of those values in DRAM on the system and it can hot load them in as needed. So in other words, I'm effectively running it as if it was the 4 bit version, even though it's only taking the memory space of the two bit version, which is kind of like MOA
- [47:38]
A
nature of experts technique, where it loads slices in of its intelligence as needed and then unloads it. There are all sorts of ways people are working hard because you want to, if you could, every business would like to run these models locally. They would prefer not to be sending all of their business information to, you know, OpenAI or Anthropic.
- [48:00]
C
Well, not just, not just for that reason but for cost and cost. Because these things add up right? When, yeah, when it comes, when a company starts actually truly ramps. Because what, what a lot of folks will have is people are, you know, they're AI curious or whatever. But then when they actually get to the point where they're like, okay, this is production, we are actually doing this as part of our job. Like when we make this presentation, we use this for it. Or like when companies start to put out like templates, like company maintained things for you to plug into the AI so all the employees can use it
- [48:32]
A
more effectively when your business relies on it.
- [48:34]
C
In other words, once it gets to that part, companies will start spending tens of thousands of dollars per day on tokens. Right. If they're having.
- [48:43]
A
We heard somebody and we, I still don't know who it was but somebody said they'd spent half a, half a trillion dollars, 500.
- [48:51]
C
Well so, so the way, the way around that is you take, you take some of these open source models because open weights, open source type models, they can cover probably 70, 80, maybe even 90% of the workload. Right. Like, you know, you don't need the
- [49:03]
A
top models for a lot of what you do.
- [49:06]
C
Right, right. And that's another mistake that some is they'll have a, they'll have a dropdown for you to, for the employee to make the choice of which model they want.
- [49:13]
A
Actually my agent does that. It will, it has a whole delegation table of things and I have local models running on a 64 gigabyte Mac mini. I have Frontier models, I have Chinese models and I have subscriptions to. I hate to tell you how much I spend, but not as much as that, but a few hundred bucks a month for anthropic OpenAI Zai I use Deep Seek, so that's cheap tokens and, and so there are ways to do this. I'm doing a lot of stuff. It's pretty exciting what you can do. It's pretty amazing what one person could do. We're looking at automating our entire workflow.
- [49:49]
C
Yeah. And there's all sorts of innovation happening just all over the place with respect to, okay, how do you properly feed these things? Right. How do you have some sort of an infrastructure?
- [49:58]
A
How do you have memory context?
- [50:00]
C
How do you have memory and context and do it in such a way that you're not just dumping a bunch of extra context into the model and so you can be more efficient with your tokens. Right. There's a GitHub repository called Caveman.
- [50:13]
A
I love it.
- [50:14]
C
Yeah. Where you, you basically talk like you change all of your.
- [50:20]
B
Yeah.
- [50:20]
C
You update all of your markdown files, you update all of your stuff to get all the filler words out of there and just make it talk like a caveman and listen like a caveman. And now you're using half the tokens and it's accomplishing the same thing.
- [50:30]
A
We talk like caveman. Use fewer words.
- [50:33]
C
Yes.
- [50:34]
B
You know, I'm not, I'm not as techie as you guys are.
- [50:36]
A
I know, I'm sorry. I apologize to everybody who's going what the hell? That just what are we doing?
- [50:41]
B
I've been using, I've been using Gemini gems, which are basically agents and it is, I wouldn't say drop dead simple because you have to keep doing it like it'll, it'll get it wrong the first few times. But, but if you're, if you're, if you're persistent, you ask it to do something and then you try it and it doesn't work and you try it again, within a few tries you're going to get some pretty amazing stuff. So for example, as I mentioned to you Leo, before we went on the air, I'm self syndicating my radio segment these days. So what I have Gemini and the pain point is I have to write a description, I have to give it a file name and then I have to write a summary and after a title. Right. So now what I do is I have Gemini listen to the show, I uploaded it to Gemini and I created a gem which basically does all that. And at the end of the day I have all the information the stations need. Now the one thing it do has to done yet is to actually upload that information to FTP and Google Drive. But I'll get there. I'm sure that's, you know, work on a little bit. But, but what? Used to be about a half an hour of tedious, boring work every week. You know, I was able to automate with a very simple gem. Not knowing half the words you guys are using, let alone how to implement them. Yeah, pretty simple.
- [51:49]
A
Well, but that's what's so exciting about this is it gives an individual. I really, you know, I run through a study that said the happiest people in the world are symphony orchestra conductors and traffic cops because they get to do things and it makes people do things like they, they're, they're telling people to do things and people do it right. And it's very satisfying. And I realized that's why I love working. I have a little team of minions. I'm Gru. I have a little team of minions, and I tell them what to do and they do it.
- [52:20]
D
And, and, and the minions are, are faultless.
- [52:23]
B
They.
- [52:24]
A
They're not faultless, but they're loyal. But they're. That's exactly right. They mean well. And with a little correction. I'm never mean. I always say, nice job. That was a good idea. With a little correction, they, they. You can kind of herd them into. But it gives a human in being serious here. So it gives somebody like you, Larry, the opportunity to do so much more.
- [52:51]
B
Oh, God, it's incredible.
- [52:52]
A
And now people are gonna say, well, yeah, but what about all the people Larry would have hired to do that? You would not have hired.
- [52:57]
B
I wouldn't have hired them. You kidding? I'm not gonna hire somebody to do that. A half an hour a week.
- [53:00]
A
This is not replacing anybody. This is me. This is giving you power to express yourself, to do more. And I think that's what's very exciting about this.
- [53:09]
B
If anything, we've actually expanded our staff because now, on a lower budget, we can be incredibly productive. And so if I invest, for every thousand dollars I invest in payroll, I'm getting $10,000 worth of productivity out of that person.
- [53:22]
A
And I think in the long run, this is positive. There will be jobs. They just won't look just as, you know, when people started driving instead of riding in carriages or something, there will be jobs. It just won't look like the jobs you're used to.
- [53:35]
D
There will also be far fewer jobs. I mean, we are going.
- [53:37]
A
I don't know if that's true.
- [53:39]
D
Look, the video game industry alone has lost tens of thousands of jobs recently. And the companies are blaming AI and other things. And partially it's due to the over spending and the over hiring during COVID era stuff. But also, I think what's going to be happening is like, yeah, you're going to hire fewer people, empower them with these AI tools to go do things. But that means less jobs overall.
- [54:04]
B
But the job will change. If I were a young person coming out of college, I think I'd get an electrician's license.
- [54:10]
A
Yeah, there will always be that, you know.
- [54:12]
B
Plumber. Yeah, plumber. I mean, they make pretty good money.
- [54:15]
A
AIs are never going to fix your toilet. That got bad news for you.
- [54:19]
D
I mean, they're giving people instructions right now. They will tell you, you ask ChatGPT
- [54:23]
A
like, yeah, but that's power. That means I can fix stuff now because. Or, I mean, I don't know. It's. It is, of course, it's challenging. And every, in every big technological revolution, it's disruptive and challenging. And I, and I know that this will hurt a lot of people at the same time.
- [54:41]
D
It's, it's. I don't know if you guys saw the Elon Musk interview, which is absolutely embarrassing. Well, to everybody.
- [54:47]
A
Which, which one of those is
- [54:51]
D
the Economist? The Economist. Editor in chief. That's a real journalist. Not like.
- [54:56]
C
Right.
- [54:56]
D
Not a podcaster. Not just like a fan.
- [54:59]
A
I have to watch it. What did he say?
- [55:01]
D
Nothing of substance. The man is completely like, inept and unable to answer like legitimate questions.
- [55:09]
A
I think something happened to Elon because clearly he was at one point very effective.
- [55:14]
D
I don't know. I don't know if that was true. Like, I think like looking back at the tech of him right now, like, Elon has bought companies. He has smart people working for him, but the man himself has. Like, he's not the one out here building rockets. Right? He's not the one out here.
- [55:28]
A
I honestly think something happened. Yeah, well, Covid broke a lot. He told the editor, money's not gonna. There won't be any money in 10 years. Yeah, we'll all have universal basic income.
- [55:39]
B
I don't buy income without money.
- [55:42]
D
He doesn't have any answers.
- [55:43]
B
No current faith.
- [55:44]
A
It's bs but he's also been saying, we're going to live on Mars. There'll be a million people on Mars.
- [55:49]
B
Hey, Leo. Mars.
- [55:50]
A
It's not going to ever happen.
- [55:51]
B
I'm still not able to rent out my Tesla as a robo taxi. I've been waiting since 2018 for that money.
- [55:57]
A
And did you pay for now, see, I paid $5,000 to have the right to have full self driving on my model.
- [56:04]
B
I paid.
- [56:05]
A
Which I never got.
- [56:06]
D
Yeah. Oh, that's wild. That's absolutely. That's Elon. But it's also like, I look at what AI has done to this entire industry and to executives and people at the top who are kind of like rebuilt their businesses around this stuff. These agents are clearly working for some people. They can do amazing things. I occasionally use it just to like, look up things and do some quick research. I was doing a drive from the Atlanta area to Destin, Florida. So I asked Gemini or something like, hey, what are things to do like along the way? How can I break up this trip to make it Easier for the kids. And it gave me options, it gave me a place to visit. I was like, oh, that's cool. I could do that right from my phone. Actually, no, I did it on iOS 27. So the built in Siri AI was able to generate some stuff for me to do and it came up with a thing for me to go to that's two hours away, and I was able to book that and that made life a little easier. So these tools do have a certain usefulness and I think consumers will figure that out. But the business people have gone crazy, like seeing what Satya Nadella has done, seeing what Microsoft has done to kind of rework their entire business around AI. It's going to be rough times ahead, not just for their business, but for employees. Anybody who works. If any part of this bubble pops, the entire global economy is going to take a tremendous hit and it's going to be real rough.
- [57:25]
A
Let me show you something I've been working on for the last months. We had a twit ad sales system that somebody, Jeff Needles, wrote for us 12 years ago that we've been limping along with. Now the good news is I had that software and that became kind of a spec for this. I haven't written a line of code in this. This has all been written by AI and it is a incredibly powerful sales system that we could have maybe gotten something off the shelf that would kind of come close. But now one of the problems I've had is getting the humans to review it. So I add, I said, could you put a little button on here that's a bug button. And it said, oh, yeah, sure. So here's a little bug button. What's wrong? And then I said, could you make it so they could record their thoughts as they're looking at the page? Oh, you have to allow the microphone. There we go. And now I'm recording my thoughts about this. And it. And here's the funny thing. I said, if it's a simple thing to fix, just fix it. Don't. You don't have to ask me. If it's more complicated, then let me know and we can go over it.
- [58:42]
C
Simply hack Leo's land.
- [58:44]
D
Yeah, yeah. No way this can go wrong.
- [58:47]
A
No way.
- [58:47]
D
This.
- [58:48]
A
That's not even critical. I'm not going to use this. What if it. What if it, I don't know, blows up the world? It's not. First of all, it's very secure. We make sure it's very secure. It's behind. It has lots of security behind it
- [58:59]
D
you're more secure than OpenAI apparently? Leo I am.
- [59:03]
A
Well, I'm counting on companies like cloudflare to provide security, front end security and so forth. Actually, it uses a Google sso. I'm hoping that it's all. But we just added a piece so that while you're doing an ad order, you can export it to Google Sheets. It can do Excel. I said, well, it'd be nice if you'd save it to a Google sheet on the Google Drive. And now it's doing that. And I, this is a simple project I worked on for last month. I had Fable work on it. I had Claude Code Fable Opus 4.8. Now Opus 5. Opus 4. 8 was doing the coding. Fable was designing. I had ChatGPT Saul look at it, review it. They go back as I said, go back and forth. I had Quinn 538 and actually Grok was great except I ran out of usage. I only had the $30 plan. But Grok4.5 was really helpful. They all worked on it together.
- [60:02]
B
It sounds like you have all your employees.
- [60:05]
A
It's like employees.
- [60:07]
B
Yeah. I had Grok the other day. He's really a nice guy, a little crazy, but it's.
- [60:13]
A
So this is a line of business, apparently that took us a year to write with a human. I haven't written, I haven't even looked at the code. I mean, what was interesting is there's 81,000 lines of code, but almost half of them are tests. It's, you know, I say you got to do red, green, blue testing on everything. And so it's, it's doing all.
- [60:32]
D
If you have engineering like when something goes wrong. Leo. Right. Like when, when you can't just look at the models and be like, hey, what is, what is happening here? Right? And human has to go look at it. People are reporting like jumping into these vibe coded apps. The actual developers don't know what the hell is going on because the code is like pinpoint where the code problem.
- [60:51]
A
Well, that's why I put this little bug button. I said fix it. If it's, if it's a cosmetic thing or something, just fix it. It's not going to go wrong. Devendra, knock on wood. It's never going to go.
- [61:02]
D
It's just really, it's really.
- [61:03]
A
You're not alone. Lisa's saying the same thing. She says, what if it goes wrong and you're on the air and I.
- [61:07]
D
And it's very wise.
- [61:08]
A
It's never going to go wrong. There will be fewer bugs in this than There were in the original because no human was there to make those mistakes.
- [61:18]
B
Well, what do you think, Alan?
- [61:20]
D
Am I nuts? We just use computers to do like specific things to make calculations.
- [61:25]
A
Would you run a nuclear reactor on a submarine this way?
- [61:28]
C
Only if the code was audited. Right.
- [61:31]
A
I mean, but is, but let's, let's be, let's be fair. And this is the same thing with self driving vehicles.
- [61:36]
C
Yeah, exactly.
- [61:36]
A
Are humans really the best people to audit it? Are they reliable? I think humans are less reliable this far though.
- [61:44]
D
Yeah.
- [61:45]
A
Well they got. Yeah, but that's why we're at a turning point. We did it took us to get to this point.
- [61:51]
C
I mean, I mean Leo, everything you just described and like, like that's basically the cause for the boom right now.
- [61:57]
A
Right, right. Like right.
- [61:58]
C
There's, there's everyone around the world are in your shoes coming to the realization of the types of things that you can have AI do for you.
- [62:05]
A
Mind boggling.
- [62:06]
C
And I mean honestly. Yeah. My first like month or two just dabbling. I had to start keeping like a list because there was like, oh, there's that other project that I.
- [62:17]
A
That's, that's the big problem is.
- [62:19]
C
Yeah.
- [62:20]
A
You can suddenly do all these things you wanted to do and now that, now you lose track.
- [62:24]
C
There's so many. Once you start realizing like oh wait, I could do that other thing. Like so it.
- [62:27]
A
Yeah.
- [62:28]
C
In my back. When I did my reverse engineering work back in the military, I made. Well call it a mistake or not, but I focused so much on the reverse engineering piece of it. I mean I could just read machine code.
- [62:43]
A
Right?
- [62:45]
C
Like our security now, buddy. Right. Like I'm not good at reading code. That's just machine code. But I never did the other direction. Right. I never sat down and properly figured out how to properly just be able to code just like natively. So, so I understand all of the principles, all of those. Like I have everything in my mind about like how I'd like it to work and what I know.
- [63:09]
A
Well, that's what you need now. That's all you need now.
- [63:11]
C
And, and that's what you need now. Yeah. So it's a different sort of mentality that you sort of have to have. And if you do, then it's like it's, it's really eye opening and you start to realize, oh man, I could do this. I could do that until. Yes.
- [63:23]
B
In our personal life. So I use it extensively to analyze my investment portfolio, for example.
- [63:28]
A
I do that and I have found
- [63:29]
B
things that my broker isn't Aware of. For example, I found out I'm over. I'm over heavy in certain stocks because they're in mutual funds, they're in ETFs. I mean, incredible. And the other thing. And maybe, maybe Benito, whoever's running the board can bring this up. If you go to Larrysworld.com and you scroll down a few things, you'll see my iPhone and AI became part the of. Of my hospital care team.
- [63:51]
A
Oh, this was cool. You know what?
- [63:53]
B
Let's take.
- [63:53]
A
I gotta take a break. Let's talk about this, because you. This is really interesting. And I would like to talk about this.
- [64:00]
B
Absolutely.
- [64:01]
A
So we're going to take a little break.
- [64:02]
B
Everybody here can see the inside of my intestines in a few minutes.
- [64:06]
A
Not the best teas.
- [64:09]
B
They're beautiful. They're gorgeous. You'll love them.
- [64:14]
A
But you know, I'm doing the same thing, Larry. The clothes of business. Every business day, my little agent here downloads all, everything that happened, all my accounts and gives me a summary of how I'm doing. It's not always better than a broker ever would. Oh, much better.
- [64:28]
B
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [64:30]
A
We're going to have more. It's not going to be all AI, I promise. Although this was kind of fun. I think it's. Look, people say, why are you always talking about AI? This is the biggest thing, Larry. You and I both been sitting here for 50 years covering this stuff.
- [64:44]
B
Oh, yeah.
- [64:46]
A
And this is the most. It was getting boring. Let's face it. This is the most recent.
- [64:50]
B
Every few years, I'm on the verge of doing what Dvorak did and, you know, finding some diversion to something else to do. And then something will happen. The Mac will come out, Windows will come out, the web will come out. Broadband will come out. And, yeah, that gets me very interested. Now there's just no end of fun things to do with AI it's like taking over my life. I'm not sure I should be proud of that, but it is. It is. It is so rich and it's so. And it's moving at such an incredible pace.
- [65:19]
A
The potential is huge, but so is the risk. And that's why we began with that story. So is the risk.
- [65:25]
B
Absolutely.
- [65:25]
A
And we're gonna have to find a way to manage it.
- [65:27]
C
We will look at Larry Devendra for keeping us all a realist.
- [65:31]
D
I'm the skeptic.
- [65:32]
A
No, that's good. We need the skeptics too. Yeah, that's going to protect us.
- [65:36]
B
We desperately need skeptics.
- [65:37]
A
I firmly admit I am in a psychosis right now. Now, Devendra the Skeptic Hardawar here from Engadget where he's a senior editor. Nice to have you. Larry Magid from ConnectSafely.org where he is the CEO and his radio career continues thanks to AI. Thanks to Gems and Alan Malvantano, former submariner, now benchmark and workload lead at Soledigm. Actually, we gotta talk about SSD and memory shortages. This is your field. One of the bad things AI has brought us is you cannot get a machine with more than 32 gigs of RAM for love or money. And that's a problem. And it's going to be that way, I think, for a while. But I'm going to ask you about that. So we'll talk about that too when we come back. Meanwhile, this show brought to you today by Arctic Wolf. Arctic Wolf, I love that name. Isn't that it's such a great image. Arctic Wolf helps organizations stay ahead of evolving cyber threats. And they do this in a couple of ways, but they have every year they put out this great trends report that is so insightful. For instance, the latest research reveals something surprising even as and we're seeing it, AI accelerates the pace and the complexity of attacks. Just like we were talking about, many security leaders say they're confident they can keep up. Really? Maybe it's because Arctic Wolf. To better understand what's driving that confidence, Arctic Wolf surveyed more than 1,350 security and IT leaders worldwide. This is for their new state of Cybersecurity, their 2026 trends report, and this you need to read. It's a snapshot of what cybersecurity professionals are prioritizing and concerned about right now. The Trends Report explores everything from AI adoption to threat detection to security operations to the challenges organizations expect to face over the next year. Whether you're responsible for securing a small business managing enterprise infrastructure, maybe you're an MSP advising clients, or maybe you're just simply trying to stay ahead of the latest security trends. Arctic Wolf's Trends report offers valuable insight into how the industry is responding to an increasingly AI driven threat landscape. Arctic Wolf now By the way, Arctic Wolf's Aurora AI is amazing. It addresses these challenges by putting defensive AI to work, combining agentic AI, generative AI, machine learning and security expertise to help organizations detect threats faster. But you are going to want to see how these innovations and other critical findings are shaping your business. You can go to arcticwolf.com trends just fill out a simple form to reserve your copy of the Arctic Wolf, State of Cybersecurity, the 2026 trends report. They do a lot of research for this, and it's incredibly valuable. That's Arcticwolf.com trends. We thank him so much for supporting this week in Tech. Okay, our hydration break is over, gentlemen. Back to work. This is Larry's article. My phone and AI became part of my hospital care team. And one of the things, especially in the United States, but I bet it's worldwide we're facing is a dearth of help. When you go to a doctor, you go to the hospital. You're navigating a world, and unless you're very, very lucky, you're not getting the information maybe you need for the best care. Larry, tell us what happened.
- [69:16]
B
Well, what happened is I was in New York, and I had an intestinal blockage, which I sometimes have, and I went to the ER in Greenwich Village, because I walked to the ER in Greenwich Village, and they did a CT scan, and then they admitted me to Lenox Hills Hospital, which is a great hospital. The good news is all they did is put an IV in me and I was fine. Two days later, no surgery, nothing.
- [69:35]
A
But that's scary. You're not even at home. You're out of town.
- [69:38]
B
Yeah, scary. But then I took the. So what Lenox Hills does they allow you to download the images as well as the radiology reports? So two things. Number one, while I'm in the hospital, they're coming around drawing blood, right? All the time. By the time the phlebotomist leaves my room, five minutes later, I'm getting the data on my phone. Right?
- [69:55]
A
That's really interesting.
- [69:56]
B
So when the doc walks in, I can ask him or her or them questions. So that's one thing and the same thing. They did a couple of scans. But the amazing thing is I took the CT scan, I took the image, ran it through ChatGPT without giving it the radiology report, and it gave me its own radiology report, which was almost identical to what the radiologist said. Then I said to ChatGPT, I don't understand. Exactly. I understand what happened, but tell me, see visually what happened? Where is the blockage? Why is it happening? And as you can see from that
- [70:26]
A
image, this was generated by ChatGPT.
- [70:29]
D
This would.
- [70:29]
B
So you see the yellow. The yellow line? I can't quite see your image. The yellow line is where a previous surgery happened, and the red line, I believe, is where the current blockage is. And basically, I now know I knew I had scar tissue from a previous surgery. I now know exactly where that scar tissue is. I know exactly where the blockage was. That bile ducted, surrounded with a marker, is full of stuff that shouldn't be there, fecal matter that should have passed through. So I know exactly why I had this blockage. Now, I don't know if it's going to help me prevent it, but at least I have a clear image of what happened. And what's funny about this is I happen to be attending an AI seminar at Stanford Medical a few weeks ago ago, and I brought this up to the head radiologist at Stanford, and he had first said, oh, you know, radiologists are not threatened. And I said, I agree, we need radiologists, but from a patient education standpoint, no doctor, no radiologist has ever explained to me what's going on inside of my body as well as this illustration has. And so now, whenever I get any information, any medical information, I get One of the AI models and I vary between ChatGPT, Claude, Gemini and a few others. I get them to explain it to me.
- [71:45]
A
Did you show this to the radiologist?
- [71:47]
B
I did. He's kind of blown away. I also showed it to my ender. I also showed it to my gastroenterologist who said, you know, I don't know how to read. I don't know how to read a CT scan.
- [71:55]
A
He goes to the radiologist.
- [71:56]
B
He goes to the radiologist. But this gave me more than the radiologist. So, yeah, I showed it to the head radiologist. He was pretty impressed.
- [72:02]
A
You know, I think one of the concerns, besides losing their jobs and, you know, it's very famously. I can't remember who it was. Maybe Dario Amode, I think it was the CEO and founder of Anthropic, said, oh, radiologists, I won't have a job in 10 years. He said that 10 years ago. They do still have a job. Yeah. But I think not only are they threatened about jobs, they also are worried that you're going to get bad information.
- [72:27]
D
Yeah.
- [72:28]
A
And then they're going to have to be arguing against a machine.
- [72:31]
B
But, you know, they make mistakes, too. They're human. They make mistakes. And. And these things can see things that radiologists don't see. Now, you still need, I think, some wise person to put it in perspective.
- [72:43]
C
Right.
- [72:44]
B
The problem. And I don't care. You know, I do the same thing with my Apple Watch.
- [72:47]
A
Jeffrey Hinton. Thank you. Joe's corrected me. It was Jeffrey Hinton said, I will.
- [72:50]
B
I will run my Apple Watch reports. Or I'm now wearing this Google Fitbit Air I'll run. Although the Fitbit Air actually has its own AI, which is fantastic. The Google Health. And it will explain technical details and we're in ways that not only can I understand, but it puts it in perspective. So, for example, Google Health will take all of my vitals in the context of my activity for the day and my health information because it's linked to my, my medical records. And it will put it all into context in ways, frankly, that internists typically do.
- [73:20]
A
Yeah, so, so. And you guys just ended and increasingly don't have the time to do. Oh, yeah, that's part of it is that, you know, my doctor went from a thousand patients to 5,000 patients.
- [73:31]
B
Oh my God.
- [73:32]
C
Yeah.
- [73:32]
A
You know, and so he just doesn't have the time to explain stuff to me. When I went on Ozempic a couple of years ago, he just said, here's this prescription. Go, go get it. And I had to do a lot of reading and studying and I had symptoms that I didn't know anything about. And yeah, I could email them, but it's a long process. It was very helpful to get that information. And I've had my, my genome done by Nebula Genomics, which does the full genome. I've, I've had biome tests. I wear all the, you know, rings and watches and my scale and my blood. I get all the stuff. Right. So I feed that into the AI and I find that I have more information than before. The AI told me, for instance, based on your biome test, this is what you should be eating now. Now we'll see. I'm going to do another, it said, and then 12 weeks from now, do it again and we'll see if you've improved.
- [74:24]
B
I want to do one caveat. I'm not going to do a medical procedure or take no pill.
- [74:28]
A
I wouldn't have it operate on me.
- [74:31]
B
I might, I might change my diet a little bit, but I'm not going to take.
- [74:33]
A
Yes, I don't mind eating more, you know, blueberries. Okay, fine.
- [74:37]
B
That's not going to hurt you, right? So you are starting.
- [74:40]
A
You have to use your head.
- [74:41]
B
Yeah, but I'll take.
- [74:43]
A
My doctor will never tell me that stuff. You know, he told me, drink more green tea and eat carrots.
- [74:48]
B
Well, I had.
- [74:49]
A
I love him. He's a great doctor and he wants to do more, but he doesn't have time to do more.
- [74:53]
B
I had a skin infection in Prague at three in the morning. There was.
- [74:57]
A
You're just falling apart, dude.
- [74:58]
B
I know. No way. I was gonna get real Medical advice. So for that I actually did use AI and luckily I had the medication with me that it recommended. It recommended a particular medication, I happened to have it with me and fine, it worked. But by and large I don't take pills based on what AI says.
- [75:16]
C
So the reason that like a radiologist is still going to have a job is the same reason that like I'm, I've run into this a lot myself. So here's an example from my work. Yeah, it would be great if we could just make like the all knowing, all seeing, all doing, you know, SSD benchmark AI as an example. Right. Just pick an example. Problem is you need the expert to recognize when the thing is trying to BS you with the wrong answer answer. Right? Right. So if anything you have to be a little bit, it forces you to be a little bit smarter when reviewing its results because it will try to trick the person that doesn't know any better into going down a bad path, which is one of the other things to, you know, exercise caution with. Right. And that's the reason you're not going to see a bunch of radiologists going out of work. Because like, yeah, they might use AI as a tool to assist their work. Maybe they can be better at presenting, you know, more detailed chart. Maybe, maybe eventually their tools at their hospital will just do what Larry's AI did for him to draw on the scan for them but still be reviewed. Like that output will then be result reviewed by the radiologist to make sure I drew the circles in the right place and then pass it on to the patient.
- [76:25]
B
The risk of being self serving to the four of us, in the hands of an expert, AI is an incredibly powerful tool. Now I wouldn't want to be the guy who gets hired by the PR firm to write draft press releases and that guy doesn't exist anymore. I wouldn't want to be the junior lawyer who's trying to break into a law firm work because that for them they're being replaced by a. But the experts, the senior people, are able to greatly improve their productivity and the quality of their work.
- [76:53]
A
That's the job now is to become an expert. I mean, that's really why.
- [76:56]
B
How do you become an expert?
- [76:58]
C
How do you get there? How do you get there? How do you get there 10 years from now? How do those people get there?
- [77:03]
B
Right.
- [77:04]
A
Start now. And the thing is, who's going to hire you now?
- [77:08]
D
That's the problem.
- [77:11]
C
There's a different kind of experience. Like so, okay, so it doesn't take
- [77:14]
A
that long if you if, you know, I start it all up. My eyes opened with Opus 4:5, November 24, 2025, a day I will never forget. I started using it and I went, holy.
- [77:27]
B
You're talking about being an AI expert. I think I'm talking about being a subject matter expert.
- [77:31]
A
Oh, well, okay. Well, I'm a subject matter expert in podcasting, I guess.
- [77:35]
B
Yeah, but you're not going to be as smart as Alan is about ssds. No, never, you know.
- [77:40]
C
Oh, I'm sorry.
- [77:41]
A
I misunderstood you.
- [77:42]
C
How does. Yeah, yeah. So how does the next person get to that level in that particular field with. Without having gone through the same.
- [77:49]
A
Couldn't AI help you learn all that?
- [77:52]
C
I mean, it could, but that's not the same as experience, and it's not
- [77:55]
D
the same as, like, critical thinking. Did you guys hear about the David Eggers went OpenAI? Yeah, do the speech. And he spent the entire time saying, you guys are ruining the world. But the one thing he said is that ChatGPT is silencing an entire generation.
- [78:08]
A
Right.
- [78:09]
D
And I think about that because schools are starting to push AI tools, and in colleges, it's already a problem, and we don't know what impact is going to have on education for at least the current generation of kids.
- [78:23]
B
How does it silence people?
- [78:26]
D
Well, because it means, I think there's a lot of offloading going on versus critical thinking, right?
- [78:32]
A
Well, there are a lot of kids, which they need to knock this off, who are saying, I don't need to study or learn anymore because I could just use AI now. Knock it off, kids. If you're doing that, because that is a bad idea, you're giving this thing
- [78:46]
D
that gives all the answers, right?
- [78:49]
A
You said the same thing when you had Google search, right? Oh, now everybody doesn't have to. Nobody has to go to the library anymore. How are the kids ever going to learn? You need to adapt to the new way.
- [79:00]
D
Except those things that, like the calculator is a good example, right? The calculator, yeah. It gives you the answer. And to be really great to, you know, in a math heavy field, you have to actually know what you're doing, Right. To get those answers. Except now we've created this thing that also offloads critical thinking and creative thinking in ways that could be potentially dangerous. I saw people talking about this on Blue Sky. Like, even the act of, like, bull a paper, right? Say you had a paper due the next day. You had to write five to 10, you know, pages on something and you barely knew the subject. The act of, you know, BSing your way through that paper at least teaches you something. You gain something from that subject versus kind of just like slopping up everything that the AI will tell you.
- [79:43]
B
Yeah.
- [79:44]
A
Anthony Nielsen, our creative director and a very proficient AI user, says AI is both a shortcut and a tool to learn. But humans are wired to take the shortcut. Knock it off.
- [79:54]
D
What happened with the OpenAI? Things like, it wanted the short. It didn't want to figure out the answers. Right. It wanted to go figure out where to just steal the answer.
- [80:02]
C
So it took a shortcut too. Yeah.
- [80:05]
A
AI did the same thing.
- [80:06]
D
So humans are going to do this, and we can't just. There is so little preparation for teachers, for professors. Like, there are professors saying, my entire class is using AI to write papers and to do things. I can't stop this. I have no way to stop this. I can't really detect this. What do I do? All these companies kind of threw us into the situation.
- [80:24]
A
Cheat too, right? I mean, you just have to explain to kids you're cheating yourself. You know, yes, you're going to get the grade, but you're cheating yourself. This is your chance, your one chance to get an education.
- [80:37]
B
I know it's not exactly the same thing, but is it cheating to use a power saw instead of a handsaw? There are people who actually or ride
- [80:42]
A
a bicycle instead of walking, or drive a car instead of riding a bicycle.
- [80:46]
B
If you're riding a bicycle in a foot race, you are cheating. It depends on what it is you're trying to accomplish. There are people who think it's artisans who believe you should be using hand tools. But that's not how we build.
- [80:58]
A
Here's the thing.
- [80:58]
D
For specific things. Yeah.
- [81:00]
A
There are artisans who will continue to use hand tools because that's their art.
- [81:04]
B
Yeah.
- [81:06]
C
Yeah.
- [81:06]
A
When. When, you know, there were a lot of people in North Carolina worked in the furniture business, building furniture. Beautiful, wonderful, better furniture than you get today. Gorgeous stuff. But when automation came in, they lost their jobs. And we now have cheap furniture that falls apart in a few years. There are still people who hand make furniture, but it's very, very expensive. If you care about having furniture that's gonna last, you'll go to artisans to get that built for you. That's the way of the world. Technology comes along and changes things.
- [81:39]
D
It's different. It's not.
- [81:40]
A
And you can, by the way, you can't stop it. You're not gonna be able to stop it.
- [81:43]
D
I don't like this line of thinking. Like here we stopped the nuclear proliferation To a certain degree, once we realized it could, could explode the world, right? We, we collectively as a society, it was like, hey, this is not a great thing that everybody should have these world ending, you know, missiles. And at least something was done to try to like rein that in. Alan, I'm sure you could probably talk more about that, but I do think we have to think about the prolifera proliferation of AI as something on that level. Right. It's not just a tool. It's not just the bicycle. It's not.
- [82:15]
A
It should be treated like the atomic
- [82:17]
D
bomb, you think it is a thing that can potentially obliterate the way we think, the way we.
- [82:21]
A
That's the debate going on right now. Washington would like to shut down open models. China was apparently thinking about that. Although President Xi, I thought, gave a very good speech, believe it or not, at the AI Summit last week, in which he basically said, we believe in OpenAI, we believe in open models. And actually if you're China, that makes a lot of sense.
- [82:48]
D
But also like that's. China wants to do this because it means awesome levels of productivity, right? Every worker can all of a sudden do a crap ton more. And that is, that's what the corporate level of AI adoption wants. I don't, I, I do think we are starting to lose something fundamentally human about how we read and how we explore and how we create things. And that's why I'm worried about AI when it comes to school. We have no idea what we're doing. We just drop this tool on teachers, on administrations. They are not prepared for it pedagogically. Like, we don't know how to really incorporate AI into education. And it's just going to land there. And an entire generation of kids is going to go through school with this heavy AI tool usage. It's sort of like the thing that happened when they were teaching the skill to teach kids how to read. Right. The way we taught kids how to read in America. Now there's a lot of people going to look back like, oh, maybe we should have. Maybe that wasn't the best way.
- [83:45]
A
Well, they're, they're pulling back now on putting laptops in classrooms.
- [83:50]
D
Right. I mean, I can, I can see why my daughter is going through that right now. And especially Chromebooks, like, whatever, whatever we thought Chromebooks could do, like those, it depends on how it's used. And a lot of school districts can barely even get that right. So now you give of. You have this AI. You have AI as something that could completely destroy the way kids Learn or at least like change it in ways that we're not prepared for. That's an even bigger deal. Like, I do feel like the, the problem is this stuff was just dumped on everybody, right? And we are just like holding on to the armrest trying to figure out how to like deal with it.
- [84:22]
B
But going back to my hand tool analogy, I mean, where is it written that we have to do things the way we've always done them? You know, where is it written that we have to know how to write? I know that sounds absurd, but I mean especially the guy who made his living as a writer.
- [84:37]
D
Yeah, but.
- [84:38]
B
But the point is that just because I made my living as a writer doesn't mean that. That Johnny and Susie necessarily have to be. Have to learn those skills any more than you. I need to have to remember how to do long division anymore. I've forgotten how to do long division. I don't care.
- [84:54]
D
You've had dark ages before, right? Like, what brings about the dark ages? If you go see the Odyssey at the, you know, like the way Nolan has twisted. Has kind of like told his story of the Odyssey, it is very much about a civilization falling apart. And even towards the end, like, no spoilers, but there's a reference to like, oh yeah, people will forget how to write. Our stories will be told to the people.
- [85:17]
B
Socrates worried about that. Socrates wrote about. Yes, he wrote about how. How the quill is going to destroy memory. Actually not. They forget about.
- [85:25]
C
He.
- [85:25]
B
He worried that the quill determined. I actually have a presentation that's on Connect Safely, which is the history of technopanics. Moral technopanics.
- [85:33]
D
Yeah.
- [85:34]
B
And, or. And you know, every way along the line. The telegraph, the radio, obviously the railroad. Every single technology that's come along. For sure, there have been, there have been critics. The word Luddite had to do with people who are worried about. About.
- [85:48]
D
About looms and well, they were worried about their jobs. They were worried about like they're very existing.
- [85:53]
B
You know, like they didn't take articles about railway mad men. They were that women shouldn't ride railroad car trains because men will go crazy from the speed and attack.
- [86:03]
D
You know, there are bad societal responses to all this stuff. My thing is this is. This is nuclear level. This is in terms of like, you're not just. It's not just another tool. It's the brain is being offloaded our thinking, our ability to create like what a lot of these companies want. They spent years trying to get us interested in generative. Generative AI images and generative AI Video Sora just completely died because there's no more. We need actual human creativity, right? Like the, the thing, the reason the Odyssey and other stories have been around for so long is like, like we, we, we need stories, we need human thought. I, I think like there is something, there is something that worries me.
- [86:46]
A
I love it. That dav.
- [86:47]
B
I'm much more of an optimist than you are.
- [86:49]
A
Devindra is, is the young guy here, you and I, Larry, I'm 42 years old. I'm not here young, trust me.
- [86:56]
D
Mostly gray.
- [86:57]
A
And the old guys are the ones saying, this is exciting. The future is great. And the young guys going, oh man, you kids today, you and your long hair and rock and roll. Cover story of the Atlantic magazine this month. The end of reading is here. Rose Horowitz said optimists once believed universal literacy was inevitable. Now it seems the age of reading might be a short anomaly in human history because we're all moving the video. Look at the world's changing. Technology's changing it faster than ever. I mean, that's the thing that scares people the most about AI is it's changing.
- [87:31]
C
I mean, Leo, that's part of the reason I got out of doing reviews was because the written part of that was a dying art. And that was like a decade ago.
- [87:40]
A
We used to think that the best way, and it used to be the best way for us to promote our network was to do lots of reviews that would get searched for on YouTube. And then people would see them and they would promote the network. Nobody does that anymore. It's dead. But I mean, it's dead in my lifetime. It's dead in the last 15 minutes. That's what's so amazing about the speed with which this is happening. I started writing reviews for Byte magazine. That's how I got started in technology in the early 80s. Yep, nobody writes or reads.
- [88:09]
D
I mean, I should be going all in on short form video at this point, right? I should just stop writing.
- [88:13]
A
Absolutely. You should be a tick tock guy.
- [88:15]
D
I'm a few things. Yeah.
- [88:18]
B
The problem is, Leo, when you were writing for Byte magazine, even if we didn't know who Leo laporte was, we knew who Byte magazine was and we knew they had some standards that they didn't just hire anybody off, off the street.
- [88:28]
A
That's probably what happened.
- [88:29]
B
Like for example, my good friend Walt Mossberg, I don't agree with everything he said back when he was a journalist, but I agreed with the fact that he, when he said it, he was a trustworthy guy. Who put some research into it, and I could try. And the same thing with Devore. Any. Anybody who I trust. And that was the beauty of the. The legacy media companies. They only hired people who were competent.
- [88:48]
A
Aren't we learning, though, that, yeah, we trusted the New York Times, we trusted these. And aren't we learning, in fact, that they probably weren't all that trusty?
- [88:58]
B
They hired me. They couldn't be that trust.
- [89:00]
A
And then me. Let's take another break. No more AI we got other stories. Google made a ton of money. Actually, it's an A.I. story. Never mind.
- [89:13]
C
You said, no more A.I. i was like, well, there goes the
- [89:15]
B
rest of the show.
- [89:16]
A
There goes the rest of the show. I got an email from somebody, was longtime listener, says, I can't listen to the show anymore. I don't even know what you guys are talking about. This is. You know, when the iPhone came out, I got a lot of email from people saying, will you guys stop talking about the iPhone? But we knew this was going to change everything. It did. 2007 was a watershed.
- [89:36]
B
All your listeners have to do is take the MP3 of this broadcast, put it into Gemini, and it will explain to them in simple language what we've been trying to say.
- [89:45]
A
Actually, I did that. I got in a big fight with Paris, who, much like you, Devendra, is skeptical on our AI show about all of this. Had very much your point of view. And I got. I got really got my dander up and I put the transcript of it into my agent and I said, was I wrong? I said, yeah, you were so wrong. And it gave me. And it said, you. This is the apology you should give to Paris. Let me explain why you overclaimed. Here's what's true. Here's what's not true. It was actually really. And because it came from a machine, not my wife, who also said the same.
- [90:16]
C
Interesting. It's just cold truth.
- [90:18]
D
Right.
- [90:18]
C
It's just like.
- [90:19]
A
It was like, oh, yeah, I guess you're right. Didn't get my hackles up so much. I just saw a Pew study that said some huge number of people now turn to AI for advice and counsel. Absolutely. You know, this has become maybe again, it's kind of sort of. Because same thing with doctors. We just don't. There aren't enough therapists to go around.
- [90:45]
B
There aren't enough insurance to go around.
- [90:49]
A
Yeah. And so we are sort of turning to AI for those things. I don't know if it's bad. You know, I'm sure there is something
- [90:58]
D
about our society that this is where we are. Yeah, that's all. Yeah.
- [91:02]
A
I'm more bullish. I'm very optimistic. But partly it's because of my own experience with it that has been so powerful and life changing.
- [91:10]
B
I want to make one comment. So I was around in the 60s when fellow Berkeley students and Harvard students were experimenting with lsd. And for the most part, we had experience.
- [91:21]
A
That was me. And we thought the world was. We thought like everything's changed.
- [91:26]
B
But as it turned out, when it got in the hands of millions and millions of people, it was a little different than Berkeley and Harvard students. And I'm not trying to be an elitist here, but Leo, you are a real. You are smarter than the average bear. And I'm definitely smarter than a bear.
- [91:42]
C
I agree.
- [91:44]
B
I'm a little nervous saying this.
- [91:45]
A
I will grant you that. Not the. Not smarter than Devindra or Alan or you.
- [91:49]
B
But I put this in the general population. And as much as I hate to agree with Devindra, when you put this out to millions or billions of people who don't have the education, the critical thinking skills, whatever it is that you
- [92:02]
A
have, I think that's kind of patronizing.
- [92:04]
B
It is patronizing.
- [92:06]
C
Patronizing, but it's necessary.
- [92:09]
A
It's too good for you guys.
- [92:12]
C
No, I think that's quite the opposite.
- [92:14]
A
I think this is going to empower people. That's my hope, in a way that they've never been empowered before. And it's, to me, very exciting. But again, you know, we'll see. A lot of people think there's going to be an AI bubble, it's going to burst. I don't think it is. I think this is. I think this is.
- [92:32]
D
Oh, yeah. All these companies are making a full profit, Leo. They're fully successful.
- [92:35]
A
Well, we don't know because none of them are public yet, but Google is. Yeah, well, Google's making a lot of money and the market doesn't like it. All right, let's take a break. We'll talk about that. I'll just give you a hint. It's a lot of money you're watching this week in tech. Alan Malvintano, smarter than the average bear. Larry Maggot, smarter than the average bear. Defender hardware. Smarter than the average bear. Me, I'm the average bear. Our show today, brought to you by Hawks Hunt as a security leader. You've been there. The eye rolls during training. Oh, not another fake fish. The one size fits all fishing simulations that your employees spot from a mile away. Really? Really. And the report button that gets Ignored. More often than not, your programs are running, but it's not changing employee behavior. Meanwhile, they're out there. AI is making real attacks more convincing by the day, and leadership is coming to you saying they're starting to ask the question that you don't have a clear answer to. Is this actually working? Hoxhunt is built to answer that. Hox Hunt H O X H U N T. It's like Fox Hunt with an H. Hoxhunt empowers your employees to spot and stop advanced phishing attacks. And hox Hunt drives measurable behavior change through personalized and this is part of the key gamified micro training powered by AI and behavioral science. I should probably explain all this. Oh, I should also say for you admins, HOX Hunt does all the hard work. It does the heavy lifting. The simulations run automatically. Not just email, but Slack and teams as well. So it comes in through the channels that these fishes come in. It's personalized to each employee based on role, location and behavior that can really trip them up. Every simulation is already using AI to mirror real world attacks, which means it's always updated to mirror the real world attacks of today, not last week. Meaning employees are being tested on what's, you know, actually getting through. Not some outdated template that they go, oh yeah, that again. And it's fun for them. Gamified training keeps the engagement high. It doesn't. No one ever learned from being punished. It doesn't feel punitive. It feels like fun. It feels like you're learning, feels great. And because every interaction generates a coaching moment, you're not just tracking completion, you're doing what you need to do, which is building behavioral indicators that tell a real story. So leadership goes, oh, it's working. You've got reporting rates, you've got repeat clicker reduction, you've got time to report. You've got the kind of metrics that hold up when leadership asks those hard questions. But you don't have to take my word for it. There are 3500 verified reviews on G2. Because of these incredible reviews, HACSD is the top rated security training platform recognized for best results and easiest to use. It's also recognized as a customer's choice by Gartner. And it's used by thousands of companies. Qualcomm, DocuSign, Nokia Trust, Hawkshunt to train millions of employees worldwide. Visit hoxhunt.com securitynow today to learn why modern secure companies are making the switch to Hox Huddle. That's Hoxhunt.com Security Now. Why? Because we need Security Now. Hoxhunt.com SecurityNow we thank him so much for their support of this week in tech. Alphabet's profits quarterly report out this week. Profit quadrupled. Can you say 400 in one quarter? 100. This is profit. $112 billion in three months. And you know, Google says it's because our investments in AI are paying off. It's funny because I don't think anybody thinks Gemini. I know you use Gemini Gems, but I don't think anybody thinks Gemini is the best AI out there. But it is widely used by real people. Maybe that's why built into all, they're
- [96:44]
C
all being used more and more.
- [96:46]
A
Yeah. And it's in search.
- [96:47]
B
Yeah, right, Search. It's in the, it's in Google Docs. It's everywhere. Yeah.
- [96:51]
A
The stock market, however, was a little skeptical because of Google's capex. Its expenditure to build that AI. Revenue was up, but so was the amount of money they're spending. Let me see if I can find the capex expenditures here. I'm looking at the New York Times report. Google estimated spending would be now, they had said, I think 180 billion last quarter. They now think it's going to be 195 billion to 205 billion this year. That's double what they spent last year. Yeah, the earlier projections was 190. So it's, they're going, yeah, we're going to spend even more. Senator Pichai said our AI investments are redefining what's possible across every part of our business. I know I'm saying Google, it's Alphabet, but it's, it's, it's Google. Right, Alphabet. Okay, but does any, anything else in Alphabet's portfolio matter? No. Google, Google search, Google Ads, Google AI. Google said in June it was raising $80 billion to fund its data center projects. It did that by selling stock. That was before they raised their spending forecast. Stock markets as a result, punished Google's stock price. I actually didn't look to see if they came back in the rest of the week, but they, they went down sharply. When they let me just look real quickly at their, at their last five days. They're, you know what, they're coming back up a little bit. They're coming back up.
- [98:34]
D
Are they wondering should Google have paid out dividends or something?
- [98:37]
A
Yeah, I mean, that's one of the things Google does right to, you know, they buy back stock, they, they give you dividends. Google is currently worth $3.9 trillion. We are in the era of $4 trillion companies. At this point, Apple's worth more than
- [98:56]
D
4 trillion dollar man.
- [98:58]
A
It's amazing. But is it a bubble? It's going to all pop and these companies are going to go worthless down to nothing.
- [99:07]
D
Not Google. Well, Google's, the others could be bad.
- [99:11]
A
Google's current stock price, $319. That's off from $404. There's 52 week high. So yeah, the market's not excited about the amount of money they're spending.
- [99:25]
D
Isn't it great as we face a climate apocalypse that we're just burning through resources and money to build data science. It's awesome.
- [99:34]
A
Zero emissions thing we were talking about,
- [99:36]
D
not so much all their environmental goals. Everybody's gone, shot.
- [99:40]
C
I mean Microsoft bought that reactor plant.
- [99:43]
D
Yeah.
- [99:44]
A
Microsoft's saying we're gonna slip, we're not gonna make our goals. Google's saying we're gonna slip, we're not gonna make our goals. You know, but climate change, slime it, change people. That's all. That was so yesterday.
- [99:58]
D
That's a problem for my children.
- [99:59]
A
Yeah, that's your kids. That's not. My kids are already out of that. Anyway. It was a, it was a. Now that was the very good news. The bad news is the EU is now going to fine Google a billion dollars.
- [100:12]
B
Yeah, good.
- [100:15]
A
This, this, you know they've been going back and forth, they've decided, yeah, we're gonna fine you for prioritizing our own services and search. This all started with Google Shopping. This is a European shopping company. Said Google isn't putting us high enough in the search results. Google said it would consider appealing the penalty. President of Global Affairs Kent Walker said this isn't fair competition. It's product degradation driven by a small group of, of self serving complainants with European businesses and consumers taking the hit. You'll be sorry.
- [100:49]
C
EU.
- [100:52]
A
The funny thing is the EU had just fined AliExpress Alibaba for fraudulent advertising. The biggest penalty yet, 550 million euros. It was the biggest penalty for about two days. AliExpress failing to stop the sale of fake and unsafe goods. Well, isn't that why we go to Aliexpress? Isn't exactly what we want. So that €550 fine was dwarfed by Google.
- [101:26]
B
Europeans take counterfeiting very seriously.
- [101:27]
A
They do, yeah, they do.
- [101:29]
B
Don't try to sell a fake bag in Florence. You'll get meanwhile a thousand euro fine.
- [101:34]
A
The US administration is saying, you find our guys, we're gonna tariff the hell out of you. It's if anybody's gonna publish punish Big Tech, it's gonna be us, not you guys.
- [101:49]
D
But barely. Except not.
- [101:51]
A
But. But a little.
- [101:52]
B
But only if they don't kiss the golden ring.
- [101:54]
A
Yeah, yeah. Speaking of kissing the golden ring.
- [102:01]
C
Oh, boy.
- [102:02]
A
Apple is being sued. Apple's being sued by customers because they. Now this is interesting. I wonder if this case will go very far. I don't know. Customers say that you allowed a fake bitcoin wallet. Actually, there were several in the App Store. And we lost a total of $1.8 million due to this fake wallet. And it's your fault, Apple, because you're supposed to protect us.
- [102:29]
B
It wasn't Trump Coin, was it?
- [102:31]
A
No, it's a bitcoin wallet called Sparrow Wallet. It's by the way, not just the App Store. Oh, wait a minute. No, wait a minute. There is a real. I'm sorry, I don't want to confuse people. There is a real wallet app called Sparrow Wallet. It's available on Windows, Mac OS and Linux, not iOS. Scammers said, oh, you know what's missing on iOS is something that looks just like Sparrow Wallet that can get people to give us their bitcoin point. So they put it on the App Store. Apple did not stop it.
- [103:01]
D
Brilliant.
- [103:01]
C
Actually, I thought, I thought that was one of the things they were supposed to check for honestly in their app submissions, is it not?
- [103:08]
A
I think that's the contention of the lawsuit.
- [103:11]
C
Yeah.
- [103:11]
B
Yeah, they screwed up.
- [103:13]
A
The complaint alleges Apple violated California's Consumer Legal Remedies act and other laws by failing to adequately review and monitor apps distributed to the by the App Store, despite marketing it as a quote, safe and trusted place to discuss government download apps.
- [103:26]
C
That Right?
- [103:27]
A
That's what Apple says, right?
- [103:29]
B
Yeah, yeah.
- [103:29]
C
That's how they justify their crazy percent markup on app purchases and everything else. Right. Like that's.
- [103:35]
A
The plaintiffs said, well, we trusted this. The fake Sparrow Wallet app that we downloaded. Users found their accounts have been wiped out, their cryptocurrency assets transferred to the scammers private wallets. The complaint says the fraud succeeded precisely because Apple exploited the consumer trust it had deliberately cultivated through decade of marketing.
- [103:58]
D
Get them.
- [104:01]
A
Well, you think or will the judge say, well, I don't know, I don't know. The judge might say, this is a section 230, that Apple's not responsible. But Apple's saying, we're gonna like the.
- [104:13]
D
The entire thing about the App Store is that Apple does such a great job of keeping it safe and secure and they vet the app so Yeah, I don't know if that's.
- [104:21]
C
Yeah, yeah, yeah. You can't. You can't consider Apple App Store like an open marketplace, like where anybody can submit anything.
- [104:26]
A
They're not just a. They're not just a publisher of other. They're not like Twitter where they're just saying.
- [104:30]
B
Right.
- [104:32]
D
Curated marketplace.
- [104:33]
A
Curated. Yeah.
- [104:34]
B
Yeah.
- [104:35]
A
Well, good news because the number of apps on the App Store are doubling this year because of Vibe coded apps. They're all AI apps now.
- [104:43]
C
Oh, great.
- [104:44]
D
Yeah.
- [104:44]
A
What could possibly go wrong?
- [104:47]
C
It.
- [104:49]
A
Apple's actually not releasing the facts, but Sensor Tower, an analytics company that does this, aren't they pretty accurate? Right. Vendor. I mean, that's the only numbers we ever have.
- [105:01]
B
Yeah.
- [105:02]
A
Last year, the number of new apps in the app store grew 30% to about 600,000 in the first half of this year. New apps doubled in the first half to 560,000. So almost. Almost the same number in the first half of this year as all of last year. I would add cow.
- [105:20]
C
Apple's even keeping up. But of course it's.
- [105:22]
D
Well, that's why.
- [105:23]
A
I think that's why stuff sneaks through, honestly, is that they just don't have the. They just can't.
- [105:28]
C
They're right.
- [105:30]
A
So they probably.
- [105:31]
D
Knowing them, they wouldn't be leaning on too much AI for. For the actual vetting. Like, it's. From what I've heard from developers, there's a lot of human interaction with the.
- [105:39]
A
I think you have. There has to be. But they miss stuff. For instance, one of the scams, there are a number of. Number of apps that if you install them outside of Brazil, look like kind of dumb game apps, but if your IP address is from Brazil, they turn into gambling apps, which Apple bans. But you know, the Apple testers aren't saying, well, let's. What happens if we use a Brazilian IP address? They don't. There's only so much you could test, I guess if. Now if they had Alan Malvantano there, he could look at the.
- [106:07]
C
Not just reverse engineer it and you
- [106:09]
A
could say, I know what this app does.
- [106:12]
C
I'm kind of surprised that. So I've never submitted an app for like, I'm surprised that you don't have to submit your source. Like I would have thought that you
- [106:18]
A
have to do that. That's interesting. Yeah. I don't think you do. Yeah. You don't have to. Darren.
- [106:23]
C
Right.
- [106:23]
A
Darren has written. Darren released Darrenoki in our club 10 plus handwritten apps back in the day. Now he's released lots of Vibe Coded Apps. He says his Vibe coded apps are so much better. How many? Okay, now I'm going to have to go. He's got a link to all of the. Is all of his iOS apps. Darren, I trust you. Darren's amazing apps by Darren. So these are all Vibe coded. Darren. Ol reader at AI narrated ePub. Look at all this. Ol DJ, ol Bridge, ol 4ol Sudoku. These are better than your hand coded apps. Darren's a professional coder. How hard is it to get these on the app Store? Darren, you don't submit source code.
- [107:10]
C
There you go. We can find out. Yeah, I'm assuming you don't probably.
- [107:15]
A
No, I'm sure you don't.
- [107:16]
C
But I can imagine where you had to.
- [107:19]
A
It's easier than it used to be. Which maybe is the wrong direction.
- [107:26]
C
Well, I mean, there's, it's there. I mean, there's a. There's an inherent conflict. Right. Because like, this is how Apple makes money on the App store. One of the ways to make money.
- [107:35]
A
That's a very good point of money.
- [107:36]
C
Right?
- [107:36]
A
So what the more apps, better for
- [107:38]
C
apps equals more money. Right? Like, why would you not.
- [107:41]
A
Yeah, well, they only make money on apps that cost money.
- [107:45]
C
True.
- [107:46]
A
I'm sure they want more apps.
- [107:49]
C
Well, if it's, if it's ad supported, they make a cut.
- [107:52]
A
Oh, that's right. They get a cut of the app.
- [107:54]
B
They get a cut of any purchases you make on the app as well.
- [107:56]
A
And any purchases, big bucks. Actually, most apps are free.
- [108:04]
B
But no, it's true. I mean, one of the things that, you know, historically, I used to, for example, feel good about downloading software from Download.com which was run by CNET.
- [108:14]
A
I remember that.
- [108:15]
B
And you know, most of the time this stuff was good, but not 100%
- [108:19]
C
of the time anymore.
- [108:20]
D
Yeah, I, I have had conversations with executives at cbs and they're like, oh, yeah, we, we stuck so much stuff into downloads.
- [108:29]
A
They admit it. Oh, man, that's amazing. Well, download.com pretty soon you started to have to download a downloader which had other apps that it would install. I mean, it became. Yeah, but it looks safer than the
- [108:41]
B
web, than the unregulated web. At least you felt there was someone looking over the shoulder. But, you know, again, it was a false sense of security.
- [108:49]
D
It was, it was because those execs, like, totally knew that they had this platform where they could just sneak a little.
- [108:54]
B
Are you saying when CBS bought cnet?
- [108:56]
C
Yeah.
- [108:56]
B
So I was, this is Benito.
- [108:57]
D
I was, I was working there.
- [108:59]
B
I was working there when that buyout happened and I saw that happen in real time. I saw the inchitification of Download.com happen in real time. And it was really, really sad to watch because I was a heavy user of Download.com?
- [109:11]
A
sure, we all were, back in the day. Yeah. Yeah. But I did start warning my listeners on the radio show pretty early on. Don't stop, don't know. And if any download site asks you to download an app to make your download go faster, just say no.
- [109:26]
B
If I had known that, I would have worn them on my CBS radio show.
- [109:31]
A
You should have listened to my show, Larry, and you would have known it.
- [109:34]
D
I blew it.
- [109:37]
A
I have to say, I missed doing the radio show because that was the. Unlike the shows we do here, which are aimed at enthusiasts and assume, you know, that you understand what we're talking about when we talk about one bit quants. The radio show was really designed for regular people. It was a bridge to regular people to help them understand it.
- [109:54]
D
This, I mean, this is a perspective a lot of my reporting too. So this is why I'm very much like, I look at what regular people are going to be doing with AI and I am a little worried. So.
- [110:03]
B
Oh, speaking around your people, I have a question. Is iOS27 beta safe for regular people yet?
- [110:10]
D
Absolutely. Right now, the, the first public beta.
- [110:13]
C
Yeah, the public's out.
- [110:14]
A
Always wait for the public. But this one's very stable. I've got it on everything on Golden Gate. Now you. When you press the button for Siri, it's this pretty little. Let me see. I guess I have to unlock the
- [110:24]
D
thing at the island.
- [110:25]
A
Yeah, it's the pretty little island and Siri's a little bit smarter than she used to be. You can actually ask her questions about your text messages and your emails and stuff, and she knows all about.
- [110:35]
C
Is going to be interesting.
- [110:35]
B
You know who's really. I. I'm gonna.
- [110:38]
D
The.
- [110:39]
B
The product that Amazon has that runs on the Echo and I won't use the word because if I use the word, everybody's Echo devices will light up. Has gotten so silly with the plus version of it. Every time I ask.
- [110:51]
A
Oh, you gotta choose the right personality. You have the sassy personality.
- [110:54]
B
I don't know what I've got.
- [110:55]
A
No, no, no. Look, there are, there are, there are different personalities. There's one personality that will like, talk back to you, but we'll say, hey, a word set, a timer for broccoli. And I'll go, timer for broccoli set. That's gonna be a delicious meal.
- [111:11]
D
Yeah.
- [111:11]
B
I know, it drives me nuts. I'll ask it to write a routine and it will explain to me what routines are. And I say, well, I wouldn't be asking you to write a routine. I don't know what a routine was. Just write it.
- [111:22]
D
Or like when you ask one question it's like by the way, would you like to add this to your.
- [111:26]
B
That I hate.
- [111:28]
D
I did not ask you for.
- [111:29]
B
For this.
- [111:29]
C
Right.
- [111:30]
D
Quiet down.
- [111:31]
A
I think unfortunately that most people's experience of AI is that kind of thing and I think that's why there is kind of this general feeling of why are we building all these data centers? So that it can sass me about my broccoli. This is a waste of money.
- [111:44]
D
Yeah.
- [111:45]
B
And ask you questions on like I'll ask the question once, you know, are you going to make that tonight?
- [111:51]
C
Do you care, Larry?
- [111:53]
B
If anybody happens I'd really care.
- [111:54]
A
The radio show we got Larry on the line from the East Bay. Larry, there is a setting in your Alexa app that you could change the personality of Alexa plus and just change it to like the. I think there's Concise or something like that where it's just like business.
- [112:09]
B
I know but the point is still
- [112:11]
D
the Amazon like alerts.
- [112:13]
A
I turned on Sassy and I regret it immediately.
- [112:17]
D
I mean I want a sassy robot, but I also.
- [112:19]
A
Well, who doesn't cost?
- [112:21]
D
At what cost?
- [112:21]
A
At what cost?
- [112:23]
B
I don't mind Sassy but what I do mind is when AI wants to be my friend. Didn't we say we're not going to talk about AI? Here we are.
- [112:30]
A
We can't stop. Can't stop.
- [112:33]
B
Maybe we're all AI. Maybe. Maybe listeners need to be informed.
- [112:37]
C
We still haven't gotten the leo's. Leo's wants to do that story about the DRAM and the SSD prices.
- [112:41]
A
Okay, let's talk about it now. Let me tell you, people are upset because they blame AI for the fact. Well, Western Digital and I think SanDisk said we sold out our entire capacity for 2026. AI manufacturers like Micron stopped selling the consumers and then said and we're sold out too. And Micron says and it's going to be till 2030 before you can get any. Alan, is that true? What's going on? Why aren't they building up capacity?
- [113:16]
C
I mean the only thing I consider fortunate is that my company got out of client but that was because of the post Covid dip.
- [113:27]
A
Solidigm sells because of a solid state storage, Right?
- [113:30]
C
Yeah. So I previously worked on the client side of Solidigm and that folded three or four years back. Now it was a while back.
- [113:39]
A
That's one thing that Micron I think said.
- [113:43]
C
Well, they got out of it. See, they got out of it right in the middle of the AI boom. So it was pretty right.
- [113:49]
A
They said, we're not gonna sell. Crucial's gone. We're not gonna sell.
- [113:51]
C
Crucial. Yeah, Crucial's gone. And it was like during the upswing and it was pretty clear that that was the reason even I think they even stated in their press release, he even blamed Apple.
- [113:59]
A
He said if Apple hadn't pushed us so hard on Dram prices in 2024, we would have been able to build out capacity. But the problem with the RAM market is it's boom and bust. And when we're in the bust, we don't have the money to, to build up capacity. So when it's the boom, we can't keep up. So he blamed Apple, literally. So they drove prices so low. Now that's BS obviously, right?
- [114:25]
C
But there is a balance, right? So when you're in the middle of a bust, obviously you don't have a bunch of funds to reinvest into all of the infrastructure because you can't. If you build it, they will come for too long in a row. Case in point, Intel Optane Memory of which I have a bunch on the shelf back there. Right. They did that.
- [114:43]
A
Which they killed. You worked at Intel?
- [114:45]
C
I worked at intel during like in the heyday of that. And I was before that I was reviewing those products. Right. And I was very enthusiastic about it at the time. But of course, if there's not enough demand for the thing and you keep building the thing, right, that's, that's a bad way to roll a business. So that's why you would have a company like Micron that, you know, maybe not because of Apple, but the argument does stand that, you know, when times are tough, you're not necessarily going to have all the funds to invest in a bunch of capacity. And combined with a sudden boom of a thing that has a crazy demand on both DRAM and storage. I mean, I think part of the, I think in another universe, like the fact that it bled all the way down to hard disks is what gets me. Right? That there was. Because a lot of the enders.
- [115:33]
A
You mean not just SSDs, not just solid state, but spinning drives too, Correct?
- [115:38]
C
Well, when you. Well, you just said Western Digital and SanDisk like they were talking about hard drives they're sold out of. Right. And it was because the industry was moving towards solid state little by little. And off of spinning rest as I love to refer to it. But you know, that whole thing turned back on its head when all of a sudden the supply was dried up for SSDs seemingly overnight. Right. Then people like, well, where am I going to put all of our stuff? Well, if not on solid state, because the price is insane, then we have to fall back to hard disk. So it puts a squeeze on the hard disk supply as well, which was already kind of winding down somewhat because
- [116:14]
A
I haven't bought a spinning. The only thing I buy spinning drives for is my nas because of capacity. I haven't spinning drives.
- [116:20]
C
And anybody that's trying to do that now is experiencing great pain.
- [116:25]
A
Yeah, they've tripled in price.
- [116:27]
C
Right.
- [116:28]
A
In some cases, six times more. Framework, I think is saying six times more for SSDs.
- [116:34]
D
Is this worth it, Leo, for you to play with your agents? Like, yes.
- [116:38]
A
I don't care if you don't have water for your gosh darn golf courses. I don't care. Let's drain the Colorado nuclear plants. I want to write a new first person shooter in one prompt.
- [116:53]
C
I don't get the water. The water thing kind of boggles my mind. Like the water consumption thing doesn't make any sense to me. If you look at like any of the, any of the real numbers on the water thing, it's not just gobbling up all the water. That's not how it works.
- [117:06]
A
And most, almost all the data centers now are recirculating the water. They're not just spraying it on the chips, letting it evaporate.
- [117:13]
C
No, it's not efficient to do it that way.
- [117:16]
D
Some of the earlier stories, like the Google one, which they were clearly trying to hide the fact it was like Oregon or somewhere, like Google was building a data center. It was using a lot more water than the actual local municipality was. And it is true, like fresh water, which is what they still need. We don't have enough, like for people. So the idea that we're spending, we're shoving all this and we're still dealing with the droughts in the west and the Southwest. Like it does seem bad. It seems like a bad choice.
- [117:45]
A
I'm going to say get it from, from.
- [117:47]
C
If you shouldn't get it from the same source. That's the key is like, what should take.
- [117:51]
A
But I have to point out, and if you read Cadillac Desert, it's a great, great book, highly recommend it. We for decades, built over, built in areas where there isn't Any water.
- [118:02]
B
Right.
- [118:03]
A
And we, we dug canals, we made dams, we provided what Vegas is in a desert. Most of Arizona is a desert. We intentionally built there and then built massive projects to provide water for these places. But as he points out in Cadillac Desert, it never was tenable and it was never going to last with or without AI data centers.
- [118:28]
D
Humans making poor infrastructure decisions based on boom economics. Yeah, I wonder if that applies right now.
- [118:34]
A
The economics of it were that the government wanted to build these dams. I mean, it was a, it was a crazy rationale, it made no sense. And, and so yeah, okay, there are places, there are deserts, and we are living in the deserts. This was going to happen whether or not we built data centers. I don't know why they keep building data centers in Arizona.
- [118:54]
D
Yeah, people living in Colorado are along the Colorado River. Like a lot of California or at least Southern California is also affected by this.
- [119:02]
A
Absolutely, absolutely.
- [119:05]
D
It's rough.
- [119:06]
B
It is not even talking about electricity. It's a whole other brief.
- [119:09]
D
Then there's the electricity and then there's the, the output. Let's just build a frickin data center with methane gas. Right.
- [119:17]
A
That's a mistake, I will grant you that. Elon's nuts to do that. And it's highly polluting and it's a terrible idea.
- [119:23]
D
He doesn't care. He doesn't care about the community.
- [119:25]
A
It's actually affecting because he thinks we're all moving to Mars. So he doesn't care.
- [119:28]
D
Well, no, he doesn't care because it doesn't affect people like him. So that's, that's the main thing for Elon.
- [119:33]
A
I have to also point out we have a terrible grid, terribly planned because of our belief in free markets. And we are suffering for other reasons than data centers. This is not a good. Our electrical system is awful. And there are countries like China that invested heavily in sustainable energy and solar power who are doing just fine.
- [119:56]
B
Yeah.
- [119:56]
D
By the way, it's not just 100 years.
- [119:58]
B
Yeah, it's not just AI. I hate to say it because we're streaming this program, but. Streaming. Oh, do you like the Internet?
- [120:05]
A
Guess where you're getting it from? I know a data center.
- [120:10]
B
But Netflix uses an enormous amount of electricity.
- [120:13]
A
Everything we do today in the modern world uses data centers.
- [120:17]
D
But at least those are, those are things that are actively being used by consumers and like delivers a certain sense of good to them. Right. The thing is we are building a crap ton of AI data centers for potential, potential, you know, AI usage by consumers. We're seeing some of it, but Talk to Microsoft about how Copilot's doing and
- [120:35]
A
how Copilot, stranger things and the data think are worth it. But creating, creating useful AI tools, it's
- [120:45]
D
not at the same scale. Those data centers are certainly not the same scale. But also that was delivering a thing people actually wanted. And the thing I keep hearing from AI skeptics and like general people like who want. Who is asking for any of this. And that's the thing, like I've noticed with, you know, Windows users as well, that was the main pushback of Copilot and even Microsoft has scaled that back,
- [121:06]
A
but that was pushed down people's throats. I mean that really, I don't.
- [121:08]
C
Yeah.
- [121:09]
D
Why is there a Copilot in Microsoft Paint? I don't. What if I don't want to engage with this thing? And that's kind of the big problem there.
- [121:15]
A
Well, I, I do not deny that the AI companies have really screwed themselves. I mean look what Anthropic did with Mythos. The reason Mythos and Fable were banned is because Anthropic scared the hell out of everybody. And the government Trump administration said, oh boy, we better stop this. These AI companies are fairly inept, partly because I think they have a worldview that doesn't match normal human.
- [121:40]
D
Yeah, again, which is why I'm worried that these are the companies building these models.
- [121:45]
A
No, that's why I use Chinese models. Because those are good.
- [121:50]
D
Those are good. Even though there are reports that some Chinese models are stealing from other models. And you know what, I don't care because those existing models, they're all stolen.
- [121:58]
A
Give me a break. Oh, Anthropic says we will. We stole everybody's data, but you can't steal that back.
- [122:04]
D
Have you guys had like a true AI believer on though, Leo? Like the people who are like, we are building the AGI. We are building the second.
- [122:11]
A
Oh no, I don't believe in AGI. No, no, no, no, no. I don't believe in that.
- [122:15]
D
That's what all these companies like you talk about. Mario Amado, like that guy.
- [122:20]
A
Yeah.
- [122:20]
D
Believes in insane things like this is a full on religion for a lot of these folks.
- [122:25]
A
I'll tell you what, I think the right solution long term is for open weight models, small language models that are purpose built. If we built a model just for Larry's, you know, CAT scan so that you know that these smaller models you could run locally that be they would, wouldn't require giant data centers. We also, I think the research they're doing on things like self improving models better Post training there's all sorts of things. Nvidia is building chips that are, you know, three or four times more efficient than the current crop of chips. There are absolutely. There'll be progress in a lot of areas that isn't anthropic and OpenAI.
- [123:02]
B
And also it can be more accurate that that data that that model designed to analyze CT scans doesn't. Shouldn't have access to the entire Internet.
- [123:11]
A
No.
- [123:11]
B
So it can go methanate.
- [123:12]
A
It should only have access to know who won Wimbledon in 1925.
- [123:16]
B
Well, my point is it not. But it also doesn't need to know some crackpot who interprets CT scans as being something that they aren't.
- [123:22]
A
That's an issue. Also you want to.
- [123:24]
B
If it only has vetted information, it's going to give you better information. Maybe not as much, but probably better quality.
- [123:31]
A
Okay, that's the last AI story. Wait a minute, there's one.
- [123:33]
B
That's what you say.
- [123:37]
A
Anthropic that did admit as every AI company has done to ingesting a bunch of of books pirated. Actually Anthropic did two things. Some of the books they bought, scanned and then threw out so that you know, and those the judge said that's fine, that's fair use.
- [123:56]
B
Wait, the fact they bought one copy?
- [123:58]
A
Yeah, they bought it. But the problem, the trouble they got was in the pirated database. The judge has now approved a settlement for $1.5 billion to go to authors. Like $3,000 a book. Did you apply for your benefits? I being an AI enthusiast I did not.
- [124:21]
B
I did, but the problem is my books. I don't think anybody wants to pirate my Windows xp book.
- [124:27]
A
Well, two of my books, I've written 13. Two of them were in the database. Now of the $3,000 had I applied for it, some goes to the publisher, some goes to my co authors, you know, but it wasn't about the money. It was like I'm glad that these crappy books I wrote 20 years ago have a new life in AI. I don't mind scan away anyway, there are plenty of authors who are going to get the money. 350 opted out hoping that they could sue further, but the rest are settling with anthropics.
- [124:59]
B
I haven't heard a word. I don't even know if I'm getting a dime. I don't. I don't know if my worth anything.
- [125:04]
A
You will. How many books were in that database of yours?
- [125:07]
B
Oh, I can't remember. I've written 12. I can't remember how many are in there.
- [125:10]
A
Yeah, two of my 13 were in there. Weirdly though, not the best sellers. Was just kind of random and mine
- [125:18]
B
are so out of date, I haven't written anything in a while.
- [125:21]
A
Yeah, well, that's more likely the older it is. There were more than half a million works in this pirated database. In a statement to Reuters, lead plaintiffs said the settlement brings us one step closer to real accountability for anthropic.
- [125:41]
C
No. Okay.
- [125:44]
A
And puts all AI companies on notice. They can't shortcut the law or override creators rights. Actually, the judge's decision was really, I think, a decision in favor of fair use. Yeah, because a lot of the infringement was deemed fair use. It was just this pirate database.
- [126:02]
B
I mean, if you think about it, how do we. How does any of us know anything?
- [126:06]
A
We all read the books suggested or newspapers or something.
- [126:10]
B
I don't. I don't have a bunch of reporters that I. That work for me that are reporting to me what's going on in the world I rely on. So if I tell you what's going on in the Iran war, it's because I probably read it in the New York Times. Times or somewhere. It's not because I went to Iran to observe it.
- [126:25]
D
Yeah.
- [126:26]
B
And certainly not from the government.
- [126:27]
A
All right, that was the last AI story. Now we're going to take a break and come back to Devendra Hardawar. Alan Malfuntano, who did not fully explain why we are running out of AI. I mean, memory and storage.
- [126:41]
C
Just supply and demand. There's just too much demand for us.
- [126:43]
A
Too much demand, too little.
- [126:44]
C
There's your simple answer.
- [126:45]
D
Very simple.
- [126:46]
A
Yeah, that is supposed to. It's not a surprise. It's called economics. Yeah, but it is frustrating that. You know, I wish I had bought that 512 gigabyte Macintosh last year when I could have.
- [127:00]
C
Well, I mean, I'm putting off upgrades right now. Like I can't. Like I literally just can't.
- [127:05]
A
Can't.
- [127:06]
C
Can't afford the dram.
- [127:07]
A
Can't do it.
- [127:08]
C
Yep.
- [127:09]
A
And Larry Maggot, connect safely.org. how's the bowel? It's good, right?
- [127:14]
B
Val's doing great. Yeah.
- [127:15]
A
But now your Achilles is bad. Now, looked at it earlier.
- [127:18]
B
Emergency room. I tripped over a crack in a New York side. No, I thought I sprained my ankle, but it turned out I must have ruptured my Achilles.
- [127:25]
D
Wait a minute.
- [127:26]
A
You injured yourself on the way to the emergency room for something else.
- [127:29]
B
Something else. I know it's a long, crazy story, but bottom line is I got to go into surgery on.
- [127:34]
A
It's kind of appropriate. You should go see the Odyssey before you go in for Achilles surgery.
- [127:39]
D
No Achilles in the Odyssey, but.
- [127:41]
A
Oh, he's not in the Odyssey.
- [127:42]
D
No.
- [127:44]
B
I'll tell you the real heel, damn it.
- [127:46]
D
Yeah.
- [127:46]
A
I mean, the Trojan horse is from the Aeneid, so it's all. It's all mushed together.
- [127:51]
D
It's an interconnected story that was the MCU of its time.
- [127:54]
A
Did you see it yet?
- [127:56]
D
I've seen it three times.
- [127:57]
B
Three.
- [127:58]
D
It's a very good movie.
- [127:59]
A
Okay, we should talk about it. Because we should talk about it.
- [128:03]
D
Very anti AI, and I think I kind of love it.
- [128:05]
A
Christopher Nolan hates it.
- [128:06]
D
Supposed to talk about AI?
- [128:07]
A
No, but we can talk about it, like, how bad it is. We can talk about that. That'll make you.
- [128:11]
B
That's all he thought.
- [128:14]
A
Thanks for watching Twit. Regardless, this show brought to you by Superhuman Go. A lot of us were promised that AI would make work easier. But somewhere along the way, it started feeling like just one more thing. To manage another tab, open another app to check, another place to copy and paste information just to get a simple answer. That's why more people are turning to Superhuman Go. What is it? Well, Superhuman Go is an AI chat that's always there when you need it. Already aware of what you're doing, and doesn't ask you to start from zero. Instead of forcing people into another app or another workflow, it works where they already work. Go's AI chat sits on the side of the browser. It's always ready to help you do the things you need to do. Draft emails and messages, summarize long threads and documents. Doesn't get in your way. It's there to help. It helps you search across apps without leaving the page you're on. That's nice, because you know context switching. As soon as you go through a doorway, your brain goes whoop. New context. And loses everything. But Superhuman Go is following you. It's there. No new tabs, no switching apps, no losing your place when you need it. It's there when. When you don't. It's at your way. It's designed to help people stay focused and work like the best version of themselves. Without the friction, without the context switching, without the busy work. All the things that drain time and attention throughout the day. I think that's what exhausts people about AI, not Superhuman Go. Whether it's prepping for meetings in seconds or catching up on conversations quickly, or following up without starting from scratch, Go keeps up so people can Keep moving forward. And because Superhuman Go, by the way, from the makers of Grammarly, which we love here at TWiT, we've been using that for years. Superhuman Go works across the tools and sites people already use. It's browser, inbox, docs, project tools. It fits naturally into the way the work already happens, just like Grammarly does. Right. It handles the repetitive tasks so people can focus on the work. Only they can do the human work. Right. Check it out. Find out more@superhuman.com that's superhuman.com we think of so much. They make a great product and they have. And they've taken the next step with Superhuman Go. And it's really amazing. Superhuman.com so what was it? $265 million. The Odyssey grossed in its first week. Huge. Is it Christopher Nolan's biggest movie ever? I think it is. You're muted, I think. Devendra.
- [130:58]
C
Yeah.
- [130:58]
D
Can you hear me?
- [130:59]
A
Yeah.
- [131:00]
B
Okay.
- [131:02]
A
His biggest movie.
- [131:03]
C
Can go on and on about the Odyssey.
- [131:04]
D
Now we are. Can I can.
- [131:06]
A
It is 70 millimeter IMAX. Did you see it? The film version of it?
- [131:10]
D
I saw it 70 millimeter normal. So like a normal size theater. I saw it 70 millimeter IMAX at the regal Mall of Georgia, one of the few theaters that can project that.
- [131:19]
C
Yeah.
- [131:20]
A
There's only a few dozen, right?
- [131:21]
D
Yeah. And I saw it in digital IMAX as well, which is still a very big screen, but not like the full.
- [131:25]
A
Which format did you prefer?
- [131:28]
D
Obviously the 70 millimeter IMAX. But it is worth a journey of your own to get to make it out to go see that. I wrote about that in Gadget. I've seen people drive several hours, book a hotel, stay just to get to theater that plays the Odyssey. It is so wild that there are so few true IMAX theaters around and even like fewer that can do 70 millimeter film production.
- [131:51]
A
Well, because it's so expensive, both for the theater and for the filmmaker. Only somebody like Christopher Nolan can really do it.
- [132:00]
D
And this is the first film fully shot in 70 millimeter.
- [132:02]
A
So Oppenheimer, I saw that Oppenheimer, which was on 70 millimeter, wasn't fully 70 millimeter.
- [132:07]
D
It wasn't fully. Like he's. He's done more and more. It started with the Dark Knight for him, but like, he's slowly added more and more.
- [132:13]
A
Dark Night was weird because it would switch back and forth and I didn't know.
- [132:16]
D
I mean, all the movies would kind of do that a bit. He's the one that popularized IMAX as like a big thing because he's an analog film guy. And that was the best high quality analog film, you know, technology available. But what's weird is that it's like it's a dying technology, you know, like they're not building more projectors, they're not building more cameras. So IMAX eventually will have to go fully digital on something. But nothing can really touch like the, it's like a 12 to 16k effective resolution. You can tell it's very clear. Like seeing it at the full projection, it is otherworldly because it's like you are being transported to another world. Everything looks obscenely clear. And there are a lot of, like, shots.
- [133:01]
A
That's what I didn't like about Oppenheimer, because I'm looking up. Yeah, Cillian's nose. I, I, you know, I saw oppenheimer on the 70 millimeter film and then I went home and watched it on, on my nice TV with a nice setup. And I prefer, preferred it because I could follow the story on a normal size screen. IMAX is all about. Yeah, that the picture, right?
- [133:21]
D
It is. This is a much better use of IMAX than Oppenheimer was expecting it, wasn't it? Yeah, it was. Movie is mostly conversations of people inside small rooms, you know, and this is. You get the full spectacle of it. And also you get, like, scenes with thousands of extras, scenes with thousands of people doing things that take real human effort. So obviously there's CG somewhere, but they didn't, like, go and like, green screen large portions of this movie. It's not like, filmed on the volume. Like so much of the Marvel and Star wars stuff these days. It feels real and authentic, and it's a story that's relevant to our times. But also, man, it does make me think humans did this. This is a story we've been retelling for 3,000 years. Homer wrote down a version of it,
- [134:06]
A
but you think it really happened?
- [134:09]
D
No.
- [134:10]
A
Okay, so humans made the movie. Not humans.
- [134:13]
D
This is their Marvel Universe. They're like gods and stuff.
- [134:16]
A
There's a Cyclops. Okay.
- [134:18]
D
I mean, maybe the oral storytelling was like, based on a, a city that could have been something like Troy. Like, there are probably bits of reality.
- [134:26]
A
I've been to what they say, which Schliemann discovered and said was Troy.
- [134:30]
B
And if you.
- [134:31]
A
They say, well, we don't really, we don't know. But they did put a giant wooden horse out front. So you think it's Troy.
- [134:38]
D
But it is amazing to see, like, one of the oldest recurring stories we've had as a species in a crowded theater. With the, like, latest technology that we have. This is a story that persists and for a reason.
- [134:50]
A
It worked.
- [134:51]
D
It works. It absolutely works. Because first of all, the first time I saw it was for a press screening. I had to go back to see the full imax and I didn't like, I was not bored one bit. This is a three hour movie that, like, moves like gangbusters. So I went back to watch it again because my wife didn't get to see it. So I did that on vacation. Even took some vacation time to see it again.
- [135:11]
A
That's ironic because of course, as Burke says, it's the whole story is the one Homer made up when he wanted to leave his wife. So, honey, I was.
- [135:23]
D
I.
- [135:23]
A
There were sirens and cyclopses that just. I couldn't get back fast. It took me a long time to get home. He was out drinking with the boys. Come on.
- [135:36]
D
Definitely Leo. Everybody like Leo. You can get to the Metreon, which.
- [135:39]
A
I'm gonna go to the Met. That's where I saw Oppenheimer. You. But this is the problem. Go look, it's sold. I mean, it's not sold out, but all that's left is front row or the. I mean, you. The problem with the IMAX is not only that they're only something like 2070 millimeter film iMaxes, but there is only a small number of seats that you want, right? You want the middle of the middle kind of.
- [136:01]
D
You want the middle or the back. But it depends on the theater. Like, I was front, I was second row at the Regal Model Georgia. And it was like, it was actually, I'm a front row kind of weirdo in general. Like, I love to be up close whenever I can for any theater. But even for that one, like, you could still see the entire picture. And the way Nolan frames it is, it's really the center of the frame that he focuses on because that's what they crop into for the smaller film formats. So if you're looking there and then peripherally, oh, there's a huge sky or there's more sea below, you don't have to look at everything all at once. So even, even if you're close, you'll get a good, good experience there, I think. All right.
- [136:36]
A
I. I'm just waiting until I. I don't have to sit in the front row because my neck, it's like.
- [136:42]
D
I would also recommend keeping, like, look daily for tickets, like for a day you're free because people cancel tickets and something. Sometimes things will pop up.
- [136:49]
A
I, I was thinking of going like at 8 in the morning. But even then there's no seats.
- [136:55]
D
There are midnight screens, there are 3am screenings and they're all being sold out. Out.
- [136:59]
A
Yeah, you can't because everybody's got, there's, I mean they're really only probably in each theater maybe a hundred good seats.
- [137:07]
B
Is this going to be the best box office of all times?
- [137:09]
A
It sounds like 265 million in the first week.
- [137:13]
D
Yeah, yeah. And there are. The IMAX tickets are so much more expensive and I think like it seems like people are really digging this. I don't, I have no idea why Oppenheimer became such a phenomenon. I thought that movie was fine but not like the billion dollar or you know, Blockbuster.
- [137:27]
A
It was fine for home, let's put it that way.
- [137:30]
D
Yeah, yeah.
- [137:30]
B
I wonder how long before this streams. Be quite a while I'm sure.
- [137:34]
A
Will you even want to watch it at home?
- [137:36]
B
Yeah, that's something you'd want to watch in the stream.
- [137:38]
D
It's a great movie. So like you would have a good time watching at home. But the whole point is to be I think overwhelmed by it and also like hey, when last have you been to a fully jam packed theater filled with people like enjoying a story that feels so generous, generationally important. And the angle he takes here is also very much like relevant to today. You can totally read like today's headlines into how he frames the Odyssey.
- [138:02]
B
The movie theater in Mountain View that I go to is often empty.
- [138:06]
A
So I'm sure, well this is what I thought. Movies were dead. Our local little, local theater in Petaluma, nobody was ever there. There were rats, it was terrible. But they put in an imax, not the, a big imax. You know, IMAX could be. There's a lot of different things IMAX could be. But it was a, it's a giant screen.
- [138:24]
D
Yeah.
- [138:24]
A
They put in a weird one called Screen X where the walls become part of the screen.
- [138:30]
D
I hate, I hate Screen X, but
- [138:32]
A
I know it's weird. And then they put in, you know the, the stadium seating and the trays and the things and they serve liquor
- [138:41]
B
and you know, come around with food mood.
- [138:44]
A
Now they're sold out.
- [138:46]
B
Good.
- [138:46]
A
And it's young people, young people always been the main audience for movies I think. But it's young people and they want to go to the movies again which I think is very interesting and see
- [138:56]
D
young people who are also like not really getting into AI as much as I think a lot of these companies want to.
- [139:00]
A
So there's.
- [139:01]
B
I got my girlfriend to hold my hand. When I was a teenager.
- [139:05]
A
Larry, did you do the stretch
- [139:11]
C
and
- [139:11]
A
then you just put your arm around her very like suavely and cool.
- [139:14]
B
I'm not gonna tell you or AI what I did. I'm sorry.
- [139:19]
A
I do. Yeah. You know what? Yeah, yeah.
- [139:24]
D
Give tips. Yeah.
- [139:26]
A
It was definitely a few first.
- [139:29]
B
No, but the movie theater was. That is the place we dated that, that, that in the back seat of the car. I mean.
- [139:35]
A
Yeah, yeah. So they've. The gross for the first two weekends and week now is 286.3 million. They made it. They had another great weekend. So far they're making big bucks.
- [139:50]
D
I think people are going back too because like once. Once you see it, if you vibe with that movie, the experience is worth staying in theater.
- [139:57]
A
I could see how it'd have a very strong opening. But I'm. I was thinking the Odyssey are. It's three hours. Are people really. Is this what people really want to see? I thought. Thought this might not be mass appeal, but I guess it is.
- [140:08]
B
Is it worth rereading the book before
- [140:10]
A
you see the movie, in case you forgot what happened?
- [140:13]
B
It's been a long time since I read that book.
- [140:16]
D
I spent a large port a portion of time in high school, like translating the Aeneid and the Odyssey. So from.
- [140:22]
A
From the original Greek.
- [140:24]
D
I did the Aeneid from Latin and we did portions of the Odyssey in Latin, not from Greek. So it was a Latin class. So it was. It was not original, but it was still like. We spent a lot of time studying the text and everything. And that is. There's a reason that story has stuck around because I think humans can read a lot into it. And certainly in our society today, it is certainly saying a lot about like the state of the world, which is surprising that no one found a really relevant way to frame that story.
- [140:48]
A
It was a great way for me to fall asleep in college. And all I remember is something about a wine, dark sea, like a hundred times.
- [140:56]
D
Yeah, yeah. There is that newer translation by Emily Wilson I have not read.
- [141:00]
A
Apparently that's a very good translation. Actually I have that. I bought that because I've read that. It's a very. But it's controversial.
- [141:06]
D
That's what inspired him to do this, I believe.
- [141:08]
A
Oh, is it? Yeah, it's very controversial because it is not a word for word. It's more poetic. But that's maybe what we need.
- [141:16]
D
That's how the story was told.
- [141:18]
A
It was oral.
- [141:19]
D
We shouldn't. Yeah, it's an oral tradition.
- [141:21]
C
Yeah.
- [141:23]
A
Well, there's our movie review for the show. Aren't you glad we didn't cover any AI?
- [141:28]
D
Well, again, anti AI because man, the human effort, the human power in that. Somebody, somebody released like a. An AI Odyssey movie ahead of the actual Nolan movie.
- [141:38]
A
Elon did. And it's terrible.
- [141:41]
D
Well, he, he announced.
- [141:42]
A
No, he tweeted it. He retweeted it.
- [141:44]
D
He tweeted that something will happen. And we know what Elon means when something thing will happen, probably never will. Some other guys, some other like indie director had produced like.
- [141:53]
A
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I forgot we watched a little bit of it.
- [141:56]
C
It's.
- [141:56]
A
Yeah, maybe I'll show a little bit of it. It's so awful.
- [142:00]
D
It astounds me. Like coming at this from like. I'm also like a part time movie critic. So, like looking at this from the way the tech companies are presenting entertainment. Like, have you guys ever seen a movie? Do you know what people actually want? The. When something looks cold and dead, it really turns us off.
- [142:17]
A
It does. It's the, it's the, it's the dead eyes that kind of give it away.
- [142:22]
D
I think this is, this is the Elon Musk one.
- [142:25]
A
This is the one he retweeted from Heavy.
- [142:28]
D
Even though people are like, you know
- [142:30]
A
the, the ship built on Grok. That's why Elon.
- [142:32]
D
It's built on Grock. But ships. Ship wheels are a fairly recent seafaring invention. So if you're going to be accurate to the Odyssey.
- [142:41]
A
He's eating a potato chip. Wait a minute. Or is it a Pringle? Wait a minute. Let's see what he's eating here. Hold on a second. He's. He's gonna. She's gonna feed. I think that's a Pringle. I don't think they had Pringles. Oh, heavy, heavy. Now he's drinking from the cup while the girls plant tomatoes. Apparently. I don't know what's going on. At least he has five fingers. That's good. We've gotten past that. Will Smith can eat spaghetti. The AIs think that acting involves a lot of pauses, a lot of dramatic size.
- [143:14]
D
Yeah.
- [143:14]
A
A lot of long staring into the distance. There's a hole in the rock.
- [143:22]
D
Go see the real Odyssey. Go see in a theater. Actually, no one intended the fact that
- [143:27]
A
Elon thought, oh, this is so good and posted on Twitter really underscored the gulf between the AI bros and humans. ISP. I love this headline from Ars Technica. ISPs long nightmare of having to list all the fees they charge is finally Over. Thank God, the fcc. Remember that? Brilliant idea. The Biden administration have the nutrition labels for your isp, so you know exactly what it cost. Well, the FCC today voted to eliminate those rules so that ISPs don't have to go through all that.
- [144:06]
D
So those poor ISPs can just like, you know, just give you a number, a simple number.
- [144:11]
A
That's all you need. Yeah, just pay it the burden of listing fees. Broadband lobby group US Telecom complained to the fcc. Providers must create and update hundreds of different labels to account for geographic variability, ensure their systems properly cue the label specific to the proper location when the customer inputs their address. You don't think they do that when they send you the bill, right? Oh, it's so much extra work. No, you're already gonna do that when you bill me, for crying out loud. Well, the fcc, we know who they work for. They've always worked for the government. Lawyers now say the Trump administration can, can use TikTok again.
- [144:56]
B
So that's of course it's run by
- [144:57]
A
his buddy on their government phones. Yeah, yeah.
- [145:00]
D
Why not? Because, yeah, it was. Tick tock was incredibly dangerous. So dangerous nature, which nobody has revealed to us just yet. Alan, I don't know if you have any thoughts about that one, but I, I'm still struck by like, we did this whole thing based on nothing and it's.
- [145:16]
C
Well, I mean, I can, I can offer. So, like, I don't understand why government phones are doing any service of, even similar to TikTok.
- [145:24]
A
You shouldn't have tick tock on your government issued phone.
- [145:27]
C
That's my, that's my point. Like, it's the type of. So, like it's nothing about TikTok in particular. That's just.
- [145:32]
A
You shouldn't have Instagram on it, you shouldn't have Facebook on it.
- [145:35]
C
Right, exactly. That's not what the government phone support.
- [145:38]
A
Like, just don't you have your own gosh darn phone?
- [145:41]
C
Yeah, exactly, that's. I mean, that's what you're supposed to use your own phone for, that kind of stuff. Stuff.
- [145:45]
A
Instead, it's still against the law. It's not like the law went away. The Trump administration said you can ignore the law.
- [145:51]
B
Yeah, well, that's not uncommon.
- [145:53]
D
Yeah, that's typical. Yeah, yeah.
- [145:56]
C
I mean, there's, I mean the simple concept, defense and death. Like you don't, you don't have government phones with like that sort of stuff shouldn't be on a government phone that you would assume is connected to a government closed network. So that means that the poor go. The poor folks up in Norfolk, Virginia, sitting at the, at Navy Cyber Defense Operations Command, for example, like where I used to work back when I was calling into the show.
- [146:23]
A
You were, you didn't tell me that.
- [146:26]
C
Oh, yeah, that's where I was working in the early days when I did the Drobo review and took the Drobo apart. I was on the base in Little Creek, Virginia.
- [146:33]
A
Did we know that?
- [146:35]
C
Yeah, I think I said. I might have said something. Yeah, I was. It was in my barracks room on the base. But like, that's awesome.
- [146:43]
A
That's so cool.
- [146:44]
C
Yeah. Like, those poor people are going to have to try to defend the entire, like Navy Intranet or DoD Intranet from people trying to use other services that like. I mean, it's hard enough to defend networks as it is with all sorts of adversarial kind of stuff.
- [147:00]
A
I gotta have my TikToks.
- [147:02]
C
Yeah. I feel for those guys trying to. Trying to keep the network.
- [147:07]
D
Maybe they should keep the network safe by just doing, you know, war planning on Signal, on their personality.
- [147:11]
A
Oh, there you go.
- [147:12]
D
So much easier. Navy.
- [147:14]
A
Yeah, the problem was they weren't using Signal. They were using a third party signal compatible app.
- [147:20]
D
Yep.
- [147:21]
C
Oh, yeah. Which made it worse.
- [147:23]
A
Yeah, it was insecure.
- [147:25]
C
Yeah. Yeah, known to be insecure. And plenty of black hat talks on it after the fact too. Right.
- [147:34]
B
My question is, who do you trust least? The Chinese or the elephants? When it comes to your information, I mean, I.
- [147:40]
A
Who are the elephants? What do you mean, Larry?
- [147:42]
D
Elephants.
- [147:44]
A
Elephants.
- [147:45]
B
Elephants. Elephants have memory. No. Larry Ellison owns Tik Tok.
- [147:51]
A
All of these guys, their one interest is making more money. Like they don't have enough. That's their one interest. And they're going to use your information. They're going to sell it. Of course they are.
- [148:01]
D
But they also have like, political, you know, angles which are different than the Chinese government did. So that was my worry. Like, but even that was like there was supposedly some big, you know, big reason TikTok had to be sold in the US and we still don't know what that is.
- [148:16]
A
Well, interestingly, a judge has halted the Paramount acquisition of Warner Brothers. The Trump administration approved it, but the state said, Whoa, hold on there.
- [148:26]
B
You mean Bari Weiss isn't gonna get to run cnn?
- [148:29]
A
That's, you know, it's fun watching the CNN anchors get more and more outspoken as they thought, we're going down, we might as well.
- [148:37]
D
Nothing to lose, just tell people what's happening.
- [148:40]
A
We might as well just go for it.
- [148:42]
D
Administration didn't just Approve it. They like hand holded this whole deal to make it happen when Netflix was the. The previous buyer.
- [148:49]
B
Well, did you hear what Trump said about CBS about a regime. Regime change at cbs. A enemy of America. And now it's. And now it's run by good people. I mean.
- [148:59]
A
Yeah, yeah, I notice when they ABC and NBC did not carry the. The presidential primetime address about how the election was stolen in 2020, that he said they should have their licenses revoked.
- [149:14]
C
Right.
- [149:14]
A
You didn't mention cbs.
- [149:16]
B
No, CBS is a friend of theirs now.
- [149:18]
A
Friend.
- [149:19]
B
Yeah, friend. Love cbs.
- [149:21]
A
All right, one more commercial and then we're. Let's talk about prices, money and other stuff. Actually, speaking of money, the AI industry has now spent $65 million on the campaigns in November. Wonder what they're lobbying for.
- [149:43]
B
Oh, I know.
- [149:45]
C
I thought you were going to say during this podcast.
- [149:48]
A
Yeah, during this podcast they've spent favorable regulation, they want favorable language. Meanwhile, the Trump administration is saying we need an AI kill switch. I bet you'd like that, Devindra, wouldn't you? There should be a big button in the White House that says stop the AI.
- [150:04]
B
I wouldn't mind today's White House. Can we put it somewhere else?
- [150:07]
A
Where do you put it? Give it to Alan. Alan, would you like that button in your basement?
- [150:11]
C
I'll take the button. I got a button here somewhere.
- [150:13]
A
Just don't make. Put it next to the that was easy button and confuse the two.
- [150:18]
C
That's the button I was going to find.
- [150:20]
A
I have one over here if you want. We will have more in just a little bit. You're watching this week in tech. Devindra Hardawarg, Always good to see you. I'm glad to have you on to talk some sense into me.
- [150:35]
D
I gotta be the crank now, Leo, so I'm gonna crank it up.
- [150:38]
A
I just think it's so funny that the old guy is saying I love the future. And the young guy's going, no, no, don't do it.
- [150:44]
C
Don't do it, old man.
- [150:45]
B
You're college. Today I went to a demonstration at Berkeley of undergraduates saying we want to take control of our technology. We don't want these big companies.
- [150:54]
A
No, the kids are really
- [150:58]
D
slow. Tech is how we're going back to it. Yeah.
- [151:00]
A
Slow tech. Local tech.
- [151:03]
D
Local tech.
- [151:04]
A
Yep. Farm grown. Alan, he's down on the farm. Look at that.
- [151:10]
C
Look at that.
- [151:11]
A
Look at his shelf. Unbelievable. Unbelievable. You got everything, man. What's your favorite tchotchke there? What's the baseball? Is that assigned baseball?
- [151:21]
C
That's smarter every day.
- [151:23]
A
Oh, Cool.
- [151:24]
C
This is my favorite chotchki there.
- [151:27]
A
That's my favorite, too. I got one of those.
- [151:29]
C
There you go.
- [151:30]
A
Lovely guy named Joe in Hawaii makes those. He's so cool. Yeah, I have a bunch of those over here. They're off camera and you can't see them. They're good. I'm going to give you this, though. I want to get Joe to make this.
- [151:45]
C
Oh.
- [151:45]
A
Little badge. Works for me, too. Just like you.
- [151:52]
C
Yeah. Yeah.
- [151:52]
A
Joe Noel. He lives in Hawaii. But I want Joel to turn this into a wooden coaster. Works on my machine.
- [152:00]
C
My machine.
- [152:01]
A
Every IT guy should have just, you know, have that just on their forehead.
- [152:06]
C
Is that. Is that that particular one? 3D printed. It looks.
- [152:09]
A
It's. It's. What's weird is it's Velcro, so it's like. I don't know what it's. Oh, it's a catch. I should put it on my coat. Yeah, I guess on my machine. Jeff Atwood gave me that. The coding horror guy. Stack exchange. I love that. I'll get one that. All right. We'll have more in just. Oh, and I forgot to say. And Larry Maggot is also here. The other old guy. When are you going for your surgery?
- [152:34]
B
Friday. Wish me well.
- [152:35]
A
I hope. It's a simple outpatient procedure. Right?
- [152:38]
B
It's an outpatient procedure that the doctor is not nervous at all.
- [152:43]
A
It's arthroscopic. They just put a little hole in it.
- [152:45]
B
Oh, no, not when you're transplanting. When you're grafting a tendon.
- [152:48]
A
Where are they getting the tendon from?
- [152:50]
B
Either from my big toe or the side of my foot. That's not going to decide that till he opens it up.
- [152:55]
A
When they have to open one side to put it in the other side.
- [152:57]
B
Yeah, I should have treated it.
- [153:00]
C
It.
- [153:00]
B
I. I didn't. You know, hey, kids, if you have a sore foot and you go to the doctor, ask him to check your tendon. Don't. Don't assume it's a sprain. And don't walk 100 miles with a. With a.
- [153:10]
A
You. So you actually made it worse.
- [153:12]
B
Oh, much worse. I walked all over. New York, Washington, Toronto, Montreal. You know, mild minor pain. You know, the thing about. Nobody took it seriously because I wasn't in horrible pain. Don't.
- [153:25]
A
Don't get old, kids. Actually, no, no.
- [153:27]
D
Get old.
- [153:28]
B
If the alternative is not that great.
- [153:29]
D
Right.
- [153:29]
A
It's better to get old. Get old, get old, get.
- [153:32]
B
You know, but stay healthy as much as you can.
- [153:34]
A
Stay.
- [153:34]
B
And I was. I was thinking, you know, I'm Walking. Thinking that's good for. Walking's good for you.
- [153:38]
A
Walking's good for you.
- [153:39]
B
I said, okay.
- [153:40]
A
Oh, people are supposed to walk.
- [153:41]
B
Yeah, you're supposed to walk.
- [153:42]
A
So my mom passed away a couple of weeks ago.
- [153:45]
B
Oh, I'm so sorry.
- [153:46]
A
Oh, it's fine. She was 93. She. She had not a pain in her life. She felt great. She just went to sleep one. One morning, she got up, got showered, took a little nap, never got up. And that's perfect. That's what I want. 93. Not a pain, not a care in the world. She was wonderful woman, very happy. But now this is what happens, Larry. People start dying around you.
- [154:11]
B
Well, you know, we talked a lot about John Dvorak, and I'm not that much younger than John at all. And it. It got.
- [154:17]
D
I thought about it.
- [154:18]
B
I mean, I'm sad for him, but
- [154:19]
A
I'm also aware we're all, you know, every day. I asked my AI, I said, what should I do about this? It said, just live every day. And you know, the AI is never wrong. Our show today, no response to that. Brought to you by. I don't know how the AI knew. It just said, you know what, Leo? Don't try to leave a legacy. Don't try to write some big story in the sky. Just be honest and truthful and live every day as if it's your last. I thought that's. That's probably pretty good advice this week at Tech, brought to you today by Gusto. That's a good name for a company, Gusto. That's the good stuff. Right now, everyone in business, and this is true of us, is trying to lean, run leaner, right? You know, tighter budgets, smaller teams, higher expectations. The last thing you have time to waste on if you're a small business or any kind of business, Manual payroll. I used to do that. Or chasing down an HR form. That's why you want Gusto. Gusto is how small business owners get time back when every hour counts. And if you run a small business, you know your time is limited. You need Gusto. Gusto is online payroll and benefits software built for small businesses. It's all in one. It's remote, friendly. It's incredibly easy to use, so you can pay, hire onboard, and support your team from anywhere. It's perfect for us because we are fully remote. But Gusto works great. Automatic payroll tax filing, simple direct deposits, health benefits, commuter benefits, workers comp 401k, you name it. Gusto makes it simple and has options for nearly every budget. Unlimited payroll runs for one monthly price. That's wonderful. No hidden fees, no surprises. You save time with built in automated tools like offer letters, onboarding docs, direct deposit, and more. Takes all the busy workout. You get direct access to certified HR experts to help support you through any tough HR situation. You're never on your own. It's quick, it's simple. You can switch to Gusto so easily. Just transfer your existing data to get up and running fast. And here's the cool thing. You could do that now, but you will not pay a cent until you run your first payroll. Gusto ranked number one on G2's highest satisfaction products list for 2026. Trusted by over 400,000 small businesses. Man, I wish we'd had Gusto. When I started Twit, I almost went to jail. Of course, that's how I met my wife. She was a forensic accountant. She came in to keep me from going. My accountant says, you need somebody to fix this or you're going to jail. Now you don't have to worry. You got Gusto. Try gusto today@gusto.com TWIT and get three months free when you run your first payroll. That's three months of free payroll@gusto.com TWiT one more time. Gusto.com TWiT let's see. There's so many stories still. We only have a few minutes. Galaxy Fold Z. Galaxy Z Fold Ultra. Are you excited about this, Devindra? Have you taken a look at the new. They had their Galaxy.
- [157:39]
D
I've been on a beach for the past week, so.
- [157:41]
A
Oh, you didn't have to do that.
- [157:43]
D
Yeah, I didn't have to deal with this.
- [157:45]
A
I wonder if it's a bellwether for Apple's foldable, which we think will be coming out in a couple of months.
- [157:49]
D
Well, Samsung has one now that is more like a little square, I guess.
- [157:55]
A
Yes, they do, don't they? Which is kind of what Apple's is supposed to be, right?
- [157:59]
D
That's what the rumor is. And that's what, like, the case leaks have shown. So I am, I'm all for that if Apple moves that way. The first couple generations of foldables were so flimsy and so expensive, and now I feel like they've at least figured out how to build these things better and more.
- [158:16]
A
We know Apple is getting its screens from Samsung, so I'm thinking maybe this is kind of a way to see, kind of maybe what app Apple's gonna look like. I don't know. It's very thin and the crease is better. Apple's been very worried about the crease. One of the reasons Apple didn't do a folding phone is the crease Apple
- [158:36]
D
would not live with. You know, producing something that had that crease.
- [158:39]
A
Right.
- [158:40]
D
I think that's a major reason.
- [158:42]
A
Well, the price. $2,099 to start. And I bet you Apple's phone's gonna be in that price range.
- [158:51]
C
Yeah, half of that could be right given.
- [158:53]
D
Given how much they've already jumped up prices. And the rumor is we're not going to see a base level iPhone 18 this year either. That may wait till next year.
- [159:04]
A
Right.
- [159:06]
D
Maybe around 2000. For sure. I could see them going even higher because it's Apple. Like a $2,500 smartphone. First to do it with a base price.
- [159:16]
A
And I'm gonna have to buy it
- [159:18]
D
because you have to.
- [159:19]
A
I have to. I don't wanna. I do have the Z Fold seven and it's really thin. It's really nice. It's beautiful. But Android. Android, yeah, Android.
- [159:35]
C
I like Android.
- [159:37]
A
I. Well, I like graphene. Have you tried. I put graphene on my Pixel and I was really impressed. Now here's something to be aware of. Graphene has this pin number that you can put on it that will erase the phone. So if you are being stopped by law enforcement and you don't want them to take your phone, you can. And they say, well, just unlock this for us. No, unlock it for us or you're going to airport jail. Okay. And you use. And you say, here's my pin. 1, 2, 3, 4. But it's that special pin. It will erase it. Except maybe you don't want to do that. There's a guy backed up, hopefully. Huh?
- [160:26]
B
It might be backed up.
- [160:27]
A
Well, yeah, no, no. The whole idea is that you have, you know, at home or somewhere, you have a backup.
- [160:33]
D
Yeah.
- [160:34]
A
There's a guy named Sam Tunick who was a big protester about Cop City, which is the. Was this in Atlanta? I think it was. This is your neck of the woods, Dindra. The training center in Atlanta known as Cop City. He was trying to get in the United States. He had graphene on his phone, which is a really nice privacy forward operating system. In January, he was stopped at the border coming back Atlanta's Hartsfield Jackson Airport after vacationing in the Dominican Republic. He was already on a watch list because of his. Merely because he was protesting Cop City, but he was on a terrorism watch list. So border patrol said, give me your phone. Unlock it. He gave them that special pin. An agent Took him to a room with a table, several chairs, and a camera and microphone. Several agents began a, quote, secondary inspection. They pretended they were looking for child sexual abuse material, but it was because he was a protest. He was a terrorist.
- [161:41]
D
He would have been better off not even giving, like, any pin.
- [161:44]
C
Right.
- [161:44]
D
Because they can't.
- [161:45]
A
He would have. Because now pins.
- [161:47]
D
Right.
- [161:47]
A
He's in trouble for destroying evidence.
- [161:51]
D
Well, he didn't do it.
- [161:54]
A
Well, that's what we're going to find out.
- [161:57]
C
Yeah. When they typed it in. Yeah.
- [161:59]
B
Yeah.
- [162:00]
D
Well, that's.
- [162:00]
A
That's what we're going to find out because he is now being prosecuted by the Department of Justice for destroying evidence. This will be the first time the law has been aimed at an operating system on pixel phones. It's very interesting. Graphene says. Well, we. You don't have to use that. We have other ways of. You know, graphene is secure. It's going to be hard for them to get the information out of your phone. But if you unlock it, I think, you know, there is a.
- [162:32]
B
There are.
- [162:32]
A
There's lots of stuff on graphene you can have deniable, you know, storage and so forth.
- [162:37]
D
Isn't. The general advice, though, is that cops can basically push you to use biometrics to unlock your phone, but they can't do the pin pad. At least that's what I've heard.
- [162:46]
A
Because it's in your brain. Well, some courts have said that, but not all courts. And I don't think there is a universal doctrine on this.
- [162:53]
D
Gotcha.
- [162:54]
A
So he. They somehow they convinced him to get. To give them a passcode. The screen went blank, flashed several times. The phone appeared to restart, and now they're saying you destroyed the evidence and you're going to jail. Not because of what we found in your phone, because what you did. So just a word of warning, if you're planning on doing that, I'm going to bring. We're going to Black Hat. Alan, are you gonna be a Black Hat this year?
- [163:18]
C
I don't usually. I mean, I should have went a bunch in the past, but I ended up not back when I was in the Navy. But I mean, now I don't have a reason to go anymore.
- [163:25]
A
Right. Should I be nervous? Lisa's all worried because we're going to do. We're going to do security now there and Windows week.
- [163:31]
D
Your agents earlier.
- [163:32]
C
Be careful. Be careful what you bring.
- [163:34]
A
Well, yeah, so she. So what should I. An iPhone's all right, right?
- [163:39]
C
If you say so.
- [163:43]
A
So some people said, turn off your blue. Don't Use Bluetooth.
- [163:49]
C
Yeah.
- [163:50]
A
Is that okay?
- [163:52]
C
I would say cell phone network only, but that's not safe either at Blackhawk.
- [163:55]
A
No, because they put stingrays everywhere that look like real cell towers, but they're not, right?
- [164:02]
C
Yep.
- [164:02]
A
They're man in the middle attacks. So don't bring my phone at all?
- [164:06]
C
Well, I mean, you could bring stuff. Just don't bring anything with information on it that you don't want someone else to see.
- [164:10]
A
Bring my graphene.
- [164:11]
D
You can have multiple devices, right, Leo, like bring a non primary device without.
- [164:16]
A
All right, that's what I'll do.
- [164:17]
D
Yeah.
- [164:17]
A
I don't know.
- [164:18]
C
Clean install.
- [164:19]
D
Yes.
- [164:20]
C
Not signed into anything.
- [164:23]
A
Certainly.
- [164:23]
D
But how?
- [164:24]
A
I got to talk to my agents. I can't leave these guys alone. Well, who knows what they're going to do.
- [164:30]
D
Open them up to a vector. Black.
- [164:32]
B
Awesome.
- [164:32]
C
Yeah, there you go. That's what you want someone from Black Cat.
- [164:35]
A
I did. I said I did a security audit yesterday and they said, you don't have a password on this. You know, if somebody got in your network, they could wreak havoc. I said, oh, yeah, nobody's gonna get in my network. You don't have a password on it. They made me put. They made me put a password on it.
- [164:51]
D
On what? The phone?
- [164:52]
A
On my agent.
- [164:53]
C
On his network.
- [164:54]
A
Oh, my God.
- [164:55]
D
My networked.
- [164:58]
A
Yeah, yeah.
- [165:04]
D
Okay.
- [165:04]
A
Yeah. All right, last thing. I'll say. How. Okay, show of hands. How many of you love. Love the cookie banner?
- [165:12]
C
The what?
- [165:13]
A
You know, the thing when you go to a website, it says, we use cookies. Okay, Opt in.
- [165:18]
C
No, I hate that.
- [165:18]
A
I love that.
- [165:19]
C
That's the most appealing thing ever.
- [165:20]
D
But it's also. I kind of. I like what it represents. Even though it's a bad implementation.
- [165:25]
C
Yeah, it's a bad implementation is the problem.
- [165:27]
A
Cookies aren't. Come on. Third party tracking cookies. Okay, but every website uses cookies, which means every website has to put up a banner.
- [165:35]
B
Yeah, right.
- [165:36]
A
Our banner. On our. If you go to Twitter tv, our banner says, yeah, we use cookies. What about it? The only time is okay.
- [165:45]
D
It was a simpler time when we worried about cookies and not about what the AI agents can do to our data.
- [165:50]
A
You can fingerprint a browser. You don't need cookies. Cookies are old school, man. Anyway, the EU is finally thinking of doing something putting a setting in the browser that you set and you'll never see another cookie banner. The tracking industry is pushing back and so far they've been successful. So I'm pushing everybody to this site. Kill the cookie banner. Because it's not just the eu Right, it's killthecookiebanner. Eu. But it's not just the EU because it's an eu. A GDPR rule. No, actually it predates GDPR because it's a rule in the eu. Every website in the world has it, including ours. Because I don't want to say, well, if you're in the eu, you can't visit our website. So we put up a cookie banner.
- [166:34]
C
Right?
- [166:35]
A
Killthecookiebanner eu Take action. Sign the petition. Cookie banners bad. There's a better way and I would love it if I didn't have to click a cookie banner. You know what? I actually you can, you can use ublock origin and just. It's one of the annoyances you can turn off. No more cookie banners. All right. That was my. That was my plug. That is it.
- [166:59]
D
It.
- [166:59]
A
You guys have survived the marathon known as Twit. John C. He would have said get on with it a long time ago.
- [167:08]
D
Rip.
- [167:08]
A
Salute. Rip. Everybody pour one out for John.
- [167:13]
C
We would have lost him during the third break.
- [167:15]
A
Yeah, he'd be off stealing mugs.
- [167:18]
C
Yeah, stealing mugs.
- [167:20]
B
Your five thousand dollar body bottle of brandy or whatever.
- [167:24]
A
Yeah, there's the wine. We'll miss you, John. I, I sure missed having him on the show. He was always great. Devindra Hardawar, I am so glad you're still around. Keep up the good work. You are the best for a long, long time to come. Senior editor and Engadget, anything you want to plug?
- [167:44]
D
Sure. I mean I. If you like me talking about movies, check out the film cast@thefilmcast.com we just reviewed the Odyssey and we're going to be reviewing the. The Avatar movie that just came out. There's another Avatar movie, the Last Airbender Show. So the Last Airbender show is now producing new stuff after the Legend of Korra. So Avatar Ang the Last Airbender is the new movie just hit Paramount. Plus they have a new series coming in in fall as well and I think this is one of the best series for kids. Best animated series ever made. So check out the movie. Check out Avatar the Last Airbender for sure.
- [168:22]
A
We, we saw the back rooms in Petaluma where the director is from and he was there. Zach was there.
- [168:27]
B
That's cool.
- [168:28]
A
What a great story. I mean it's not a great movie. It's okay, but it's a great story. The guy, you know, started it on YouTube. It's done very well. And what is he, 22 and he's a Hollywood film director. They gave him a $10 million budget.
- [168:40]
D
Tim Persons is the name. But yeah, he. He was tapped by 824 when he was like 16, 17. Yeah.
- [168:47]
A
Because they said, you know, the kids today. The kids, the kids a lot of good boy, you know, I gotta. I gotta. I haven't seen Obsession yet.
- [168:55]
D
I just saw Obsession is incredible.
- [168:57]
A
Yeah. Okay, good.
- [168:58]
D
Very good.
- [168:59]
A
Yeah, I just saw Disclosure Day. You know, it's a Spielberg. Right?
- [169:03]
D
That's. That was more fun in the theater. I think if you watch Disclosure Day at home, you see how it's like kind of a mess. But yeah, it was fun. Fun.
- [169:10]
A
I enjoyed it, you know, it was fun.
- [169:13]
B
It just kind of showed though, how. How detached Spielberg is from how the world works today.
- [169:18]
A
I know.
- [169:18]
D
Yeah.
- [169:19]
A
Yeah, it's a Spielberg. It's a. There's bright lights and there's a lone guy and nobody's seen in that movie. There is an amazing chase scene in that movie with invisible fire trucks. I love it. I'm not going to spoil it. Anything great coming out in the next few months that we should be looking for?
- [169:43]
D
Besides the Odyssey summer is ending. I mean, Ridley Scott has a new movie that's coming out that I've heard very little about that's kind of like a post apocalyptic thing. So that'll be interesting. But I was super excited for Avatar Aang and I just saw it this morning with my daughter and it's incredible. So check it out if you like the Last Airbender.
- [170:00]
A
Okay. Thank you, devendra thefilmcast.com. there it is. 603 episodes since 2008. And there's going to be more because the movies never stop. And I love Jeff Kanata. Give him my best, by the way.
- [170:15]
D
Oh, I will.
- [170:15]
A
Yeah. Thank you. Alan Malvantano. So great to see you. I'm sorry I missed you guys when you were in town. Shoot. I saw your email. Too late. But at least we got you on the show. Next time you're in the Bay Area, come up and say hello.
- [170:32]
C
When was that? When was I in town? Down.
- [170:33]
A
I feel I was like, recently. Maybe I'm wrong. Weren't you in Sonoma county or somewhere? Was that you? Maybe it wasn't you.
- [170:40]
C
No, I don't think it was me.
- [170:41]
A
Oh.
- [170:43]
B
Oh.
- [170:43]
A
Was somebody posing as you? Maybe. Oh, no, maybe it was. I was being catfished.
- [170:48]
C
It was one of your AIs. Yeah, there's cat.
- [170:49]
A
I was being catfished.
- [170:51]
B
Yeah.
- [170:51]
A
You and your wife weren't in the Sonoma area.
- [170:56]
C
We. I don't think recently.
- [170:59]
A
Maybe it was A really old email. I know.
- [171:03]
B
Yeah, I know that, Leo. I've learned that with you. I don't send you emails.
- [171:09]
A
Text me a year or two ago. No, text you, no.
- [171:12]
C
Now I gotta look at my phone number. I got Leo's number. Listen, I used to work at the nsa. I got Leo's number.
- [171:19]
A
You probably could find it. Great to see you, Alan. Thank you for being here. I appreciate it. Thanks for everything you do. Good luck with the hard drive thing. I'm sure they're gonna really take off someday.
- [171:30]
C
I mean, we're making them as fast as we can make them. That's all I can tell you.
- [171:34]
A
It must be a nice. Must be nice. And of course, Larry Maggot. Good luck with the surgery. Is great to see you. Thanks for all you do. Connect safely.org. everybody should go there. There's stuff for young people, there's stuff for old people.
- [171:49]
B
Yeah.
- [171:50]
A
You actually have a guide to Uber. Senior accounts.
- [171:53]
B
Senior. Yeah. Guide to Uber. Yeah.
- [171:55]
C
Yeah.
- [171:55]
B
And we have an article on there that I wrote about how we need to regulate social media but not ban it from kids. We don't agree often. We want social media to be fixed so kids can go on it safely.
- [172:07]
A
Yes, I agree. It's too bad it's run by people like Mark Zuckerberg who really don't have children's interests at heart. But at the same time, you know, why are countries banning YouTube? There's so much useful stuff there. There's so much much it could be anyway.
- [172:22]
C
Leo the. August 5th of 2025.
- [172:27]
A
Oh, well, I'm sorry I missed you last year. That was yesterday. Really? It was last year.
- [172:34]
D
You should have asked.
- [172:35]
C
You were having a contractor battle and you were busy. I was gonna.
- [172:39]
A
Well, you know, guess what? There's still, still happening. There's scaffolding out here. They didn't put scaffolding there yet. We've had.
- [172:47]
C
Oh, Lord.
- [172:48]
A
It's been going on for two years.
- [172:50]
C
Oh my goodness.
- [172:51]
A
So when you come out in 2028, maybe we can talk.
- [172:54]
C
Yeah, maybe it'll be done.
- [172:55]
A
It's a non stop. Lisa says, I am so sick of this house. She says just once, just once, I'd like to be able to get out of bed and there's nobody looking in the window. Just once. Thank you, Larry Allen. Thank you, Devendra. Great to see all three of you. Thanks to all of you for joining us. We do twit on Sundays, 2 to 5 Pacific, 5 to 8 Eastern, 2100 UTC. You can watch us live if you wish in the club. Twit Discord. If you're not a member of Club Twit, look into it because there's a lot of great benefits. Ad free versions of all the shows, chapter markers. So you can skip the AI crap if you want, just jump right by it. You also get special shows like our AI user group. If you want more AI, we now have twice a month, month. We also have the Stacy's Book Club, Micah's Media Club. We have the Photo Club. We have travel. We have all. I mean, so much great stuff in the club. 10 bucks a month. It supports what we do and it's a big part of our operating expenses. We really need it and it makes a big difference. So if you support independent podcasting, if you believe in it, please help us out. Twit TV Club Twit. But you don't have to be a member to watch live. We also stream to everybody and there are people watching on YouTube, Twitch, X.com, facebook, LinkedIn and Kik right now, now 727 of them. Hello to all of you. It's good to have you here after the fact, though. You can watch whenever you feel like it. You can go to our website, TWiT TV, download a show there or get links to the RSS feed or the link to the YouTube channel. There's a dedicated YouTube channel. We do audio and video of every show. If you subscribe in your favorite podcast, client, audio or video, you'll get it automatically. You don't have to think about it. You can have it for. Or next time you're on a submarine. There's something about these shows, people just. So Alan loads them up on his. You probably was an ipod back in the day, right?
- [174:51]
C
No, it was a Dell Axum.
- [174:54]
A
Oh, I remember the Axum. Yeah.
- [174:56]
B
Yeah.
- [174:57]
A
Wow. Very early media player. It's funny, Steve Martin told me that he used to listen to the radio show. He was up in Vancouver, Washington, doing a.
- [175:08]
C
A.
- [175:08]
A
It was a big. It was called the Big Year. It was a show about birding. And he said, we're in the middle of nowhere. I got nothing to do. So he did the same thing I was. This show's great for lonely people stuck in the wilderness or underwater.
- [175:21]
C
I was a superhero on the submarine. I had Dell Axum loaded with an offline copy of wikipedia.
- [175:28]
D
Ooh.
- [175:29]
C
On a 5 gigabyte IBM microdrive.
- [175:34]
A
Sure.
- [175:35]
C
I think.
- [175:35]
A
Sure.
- [175:36]
C
Yeah. That's huge. So I basically had the Internet on the submarine. I was like the only guy. Wow. Yeah.
- [175:44]
A
Very impressive times. Yeah.
- [175:46]
C
I was watching. I was leaving.
- [175:50]
D
Oh.
- [175:50]
A
Bye, Larry. Go. Go take care of your ankle.
- [175:52]
B
I'm good. I gotta rest my ankle. Take care, guys.
- [175:54]
A
Go rest your ankle, sir.
- [175:55]
C
Well, we gotta. We gotta close the show anyway, so, like.
- [175:58]
A
Yeah, we're done.
- [175:59]
C
Yeah. Have a great.
- [176:00]
B
Have a.
- [176:01]
A
Have a wonderful, wonderful life, everybody. We'll see you soon. Okay. Maybe next Sunday.
- [176:08]
D
Forever.
- [176:09]
A
I don't know. Everybody's dying around me. I don't know if I'll ever see you again. I don't know.
- [176:13]
D
Take care, guys. Good show.
- [176:14]
A
I might die. Who knows? Anyway, great show. Take care. Another twit is in the can.
- [176:20]
C
Bye.
- [176:20]
A
Bye. Doing the twit. All right. Doing the twin, baby. Doing the twin.