Loading summary
Transcript213 lines
- [00:01]
Announcer
The Hulu original series Furious, now streaming on Hulu and Hulu on Disney.
- [00:06]
Jonathan Karl
There are three victims we know of.
- [00:08]
Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez
The suspect is female, white, late twenties female. Serial killers kill for power, control. I believe there is a deeper motivation here.
- [00:16]
Jonathan Karl
You have no idea who you're dealing
- [00:18]
Mark Esper
with and you are going to end up dead.
- [00:21]
Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez
I've been waiting for you.
- [00:23]
Announcer
Watch the Hulu original series Furious, now streaming on Hulu and Hulu on Disney. For monthly subscribers. Terms apply.
- [00:31]
Jonathan Karl
Democratic socialists are on a roll that has some Democratic leaders nervous, but not the most high profile Democratic socialists of all. Alexandria Ocasio Cortez, who joins me live this morning. Another THIS Week exclusive. Progressives prevail. We are a state in need of
- [00:51]
Donna Brazile
a movement
- [00:53]
Jonathan Karl
to take our politics back. Abdul El Sayed wins in battleground Michigan as Democrats scramble to unite after a brutal primary.
- [01:04]
Jake Auchincloss
The stakes are high and people from around the country, people from around the
- [01:09]
Jonathan Karl
world are watching the state of Michigan. This guy is dangerous for America. Can El Sayed win in November? And what would it mean for Democrats going into the 2028 presidential election?
- [01:22]
Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez
This morning, if we want a different politics, we have got to elect different politicians.
- [01:29]
Jonathan Karl
On this Week exclusive, the kingmaker of progressive politics, Congresswoman Alexandria Ocasio Cortez joins us live hours after a deeply personal announcement. Iran defiant. The president is looking for a way out. I'm involved in the negotiation. I think we're doing fine. But the Iranians say they will never reopen the Strait of Hormuz unless the US Corrects its behavior. We'll speak with Trump's former defense secretary, Mark Esper. And because a lot of them are
- [02:07]
Mark Esper
very angry at Republicans, to be honest
- [02:10]
Donna Brazile
with you, they're not angry at me,
- [02:12]
Jonathan Karl
but they are angry at Republicans. The roundtable on what is really driving voters and dividing the parties.
- [02:22]
Jake Auchincloss
From ABC News, it's THIS week. Here now, Jonathan Karl, Good morning.
- [02:28]
Jonathan Karl
Welcome to THIS week. We witnessed a political earthquake in Michigan on Tuesday. Abdul El Sayed defeated an opponent who was supported by the most powerful Democratic leaders in both Michigan and in Washington. And he survived an onslaught of super PAC spending attempting to portray him as too extreme to win in one of America's most important battleground states. El Sayed's victory was narrower than some had expected. He prevailed with less than 50% of the vote because but it was the first major statewide victory for an insurgent progressive movement that has been toppling Democratic incumbents this primary season. Sometimes, you know, intra family squabbles are the biggest ones, but we all know that when we walk out the House, we stand united. If El Sayed manages to win in November, the progressive movement will be well on its way to to taking over the Democratic Party. If he loses, Democratic hopes of winning control of the Senate may well be extinguished. And in just two days, there's another primary, this one in battleground Wisconsin, where Francesca Hong, a candidate backed by Democratic Socialists of America, holds a commanding lead in the polls to be the Democratic nominee for governor. She's been explaining and backing off controversial positions that she has taken in the past. From abolishing prisons and abolishing police to canceling Thanksgiving. Republicans see an opportunity here portraying progressive and socialist Democrats as lunatics and communists. Those attacks from Republicans aren't surprising. But some moderate Democrats are raising alarms too. This week, a group of moderates announced a multi million dollar ad campaign targeting Democratic Socialists of America, saying the movement poses a, quote, mortal danger for Democrats. Back in 2018, it was a little known 28 year old bartender and Democratic socialist who ran against one of the most powerful Democrats in Congress and actually won, helping to spark the movement that we see today. Eight years later. Alexandria Ocasio Cortez is arguably the leading progressive voice in America. And in a recent New Hampshire poll, the top Democratic choice for president. And Congresswoman Ocasio Cortez joins me now. Thank you for being here.
- [04:59]
Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez
Thank you for having me.
- [05:00]
Jonathan Karl
Well, it's been a huge week. What does Abdel El Sayed's victory in Michigan say about the future of the Democratic Party?
- [05:10]
Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez
I think that we are in a time of renewal for the Democratic Party and it's tremendously exciting for all of us. For the big tent of the Democratic Party. We have really an ascendance of a young, inspiring, exciting, electorate, energizing wave of candidates that I think really inject a new energy to the Democratic Party and add to the toolbox of candidates that we have to win the midterm elections, hopefully in November.
- [05:44]
Jonathan Karl
And as you'd seen progressives winning in a lot of these other primaries, it was often dismissed, people saying, oh, this is in very blue parts of the country in big cities, but this is Michigan. I mean, this is battleground Michigan. And he won. Now he has the biggest test. Can he win in November? What does he have to do to win over those Democrats who opposed him?
- [06:07]
Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez
Well, you know, I think that this really is a moment not just in Michigan, but across the country where the party is unifying. The party is unifying and it is focused on the November elections. We understand that our priority is the working class of this country and we have to make the case that we're here to make people's lives better. And the Republican Party right now is jacking up prices, making housing impossible to afford. And we are focused on everything from health care to your grocery bill and making it more affordable for working people.
- [06:44]
Jonathan Karl
You know, this week there was also a prominent Republican, I mean, a very prominent Republican who said some things about wealthy corporations profiting, effectively fleecing Americans. It sounded a lot like what I've heard you said. I want to, I want to play this and see your reaction. They're making too much money, okay? Based on a shortage, they're making too much money.
- [07:07]
Donna Brazile
I don't like it.
- [07:08]
Jonathan Karl
When you look at one company where they made 12 times what they made the year before, they ought to give some of that back to the public and they better cut the retail price, the consumer price. Well, that was Donald Trump, obviously talking about oil and gas companies and high gas prices. What did you make of that?
- [07:26]
Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez
I think that everyday people, everyday Americans, we can see the very large gap between what Donald Trump says and what Donald Trump does. And so Donald Trump may be saying that oil companies are making too much money, but what Donald Trump is doing is starting a reckless war in Iran, having closed door meetings with oil companies before his election, saying, you know, you give me money, you give me campaign contributions, and I will do whatever you want. And so what we have seen, everything from Supreme Court rulings to Donald Trump's own policy, is what he is doing is jacking up the price, not just at the pump, but at everything that you buy that requires the transportation of goods. And so he can say whatever he'd like from the Oval Office. But I think people are more looking at what he chooses to do.
- [08:19]
Jonathan Karl
But that's a reflection of what he is seeing. The people care about what the people are thinking.
- [08:24]
Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez
And, you know, to the President's credit, he is, he comes from television and he's very responsive to public sentiment. And so he knows what he needs to say. But again, none of that is going to lower the cost of your rent or your mortgage. None of that is going to lower the interest rates that you're paying. None of that is going to make your grocery bill more affordable. And what we want to know, and what we want to see is action.
- [08:50]
Jonathan Karl
But I want to go back in time, just briefly, to 2018 when you won. And you shocked, you absolutely shocked the political world. We saw the pictures of you that night. You were obviously shocked that you had won. You probably don't recall this, but I interviewed you hours later the next morning. And let's play just a little bit of that.
- [09:11]
Announcer
Sure.
- [09:12]
Jonathan Karl
Judging from the reaction that we all saw of you on television, it seemed to surprise you as well.
- [09:18]
Announcer
It did.
- [09:18]
Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez
You know, I wasn't even checking the election results at all. I wasn't even following the precincts coming in. We had driven straight to our little party at a little billiard spot in the Bronx, and we hopped in, and I just kind of walked into a TV set and I looked at the screen and I saw not only the numbers, but what those numbers were. And it was a complete shock.
- [09:41]
Jonathan Karl
So, I mean, you sound there a lot like you sound today. But you've changed as well, right? How have you changed since you came in as this insurgent rebel at odds with the Democratic leadership? How have you changed?
- [09:56]
Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez
You know, I think life has a way of really weathering you and adding to your context and your experience. It humbles you, but it also emboldens you in a lot of ways. And I think it has been the greatest privilege of my life to be able to represent the working people of my congressional district. And I think some of the ways that it's changed me has been to be able to come in with so many aspirations for our country and then to have the remarkable opportunity to be in the arena and try to make the country a better place, challenges and all. And I love that it's hard. I love that I have to. And I get to engage with people from all across the country, elected officials from all across the country, to try to actually fulfill our dreams, to guarantee health care to every American.
- [11:00]
Jonathan Karl
And you continue to push for change in the Democratic Party, but you're also one of the most prominent figures in that party right now. Your endorsement is incredibly valuable. I've noticed that this time around this election cycle, you have not endorsed against. You've not endorsed candidates that were challenging Democratic incumbents in the House. And somebody took note of this. A fellow progressive wrote recently, the headline in the Hill was, today's cautious AOC would not have endorsed the AOC of 2018 because you were obviously running against an incumbent. I mean, that's probably correct, right? What's your thinking there?
- [11:43]
Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez
You know, I wasn't endorsed by anybody when I was running.
- [11:49]
Jonathan Karl
Your friends?
- [11:50]
Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez
Yeah, just some friends. So I wasn't endorsed by. I don't think I was endorsed by a single elected official when I was running for office. And, you know, I think when I see so many of these incredible insurgent candidates that are running today, that's part of what Makes me so proud of them is that they do not answer to any master. They are not beholden to any corporate interest or any party boss, and they are completely independent, which allows them to be responsive to their communities and the people that elected them. And I think that in many ways that makes our movement stronger when you have to rely on your own organizing skills. And I think that it has proven to be quite successful. And I mean, I see so many of these candidates, and they remind me of that moment.
- [12:48]
Jonathan Karl
I mean, but like in New York, you had the candidates that were endorsed by Mayor Mamdani, two of whom were challenging sitting members of Congress, powerful members of Congress, Democrats, and you decided to sit that one out. Is that part of wanting to work with your colleagues that are in the House? I mean, what's the.
- [13:07]
Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez
Yeah, you know, I think we're all in different. You know, politics is also a workplace, and we're all in different positions to that. I endorsed, for example, in New York on the state level, I endorsed a slate of challengers to incumbents in the assembly and in the Senate. And I don't work in state government, which gives me a greater freedom to be able to do that and to assess it. And I'm very grateful, you know, that we now have a progressive movement that doesn't. That is in large enough numbers that, you know, it used to be that you could fit five people in a closet. And that was. That was. That was the caucus. And now we've grown into quite a successful movement.
- [13:50]
Jonathan Karl
So you have Wisconsin. Coming up next, Francesca Hong, who is the Democratic Socialist of America supporting candidate for governor. Are you. You haven't endorsed her? Are you going to.
- [14:03]
Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez
No, I haven't endorsed in that race. My focus has been in winning back the Congress, winning back the House, and positioning ourselves to have the best chance possible to win the Senate. So I've been focused on those legislative votes.
- [14:18]
Jonathan Karl
What do you make of those controversial statements? I'm sure you've seen, I mean, she's, you know, the Thanksgiving dust up. She says she doesn't, you know, still believe that, but, you know, the abolished prisons, abolished police, which is also positions that have been taken by a lot of the progressive candidates who have won. How do you get around that? Those are not positions that are supported by most people.
- [14:40]
Announcer
Right.
- [14:41]
Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez
I mean, I think that a lot of these races, even right now, they'll have a tendency to be nationalized. But these races ultimately are local and all politics are local. My understanding is that. Is that Francesca Hong has made clear her present stances to her lifestyle.
- [15:02]
Jonathan Karl
Yeah, she's moved away from a lot of people. Right.
- [15:03]
Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez
She's moved away from it. And I have a local city councilman that has this saying, woke one was crazy.
- [15:13]
Jonathan Karl
Woke one was crazy. Okay, that's true.
- [15:16]
Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez
And I think that what's important is that we have to assess what was it? I mean, did the movement go too
- [15:21]
Jonathan Karl
far with some of those positions? I mean, you briefly supported the idea of defunding the police.
- [15:26]
Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez
Well, you know, I think. I think that during this time and during. Especially during COVID there was a huge opening of the overtone window. We were shut down. There was some of the highest unemployment rates that we have seen because of those shutdowns. And I think that the doors were really open in trying to entertain any and every policy that was going to get us to a better place. And I actually think that the discussions that had that were had in that time were quite fruitful. I think that when we talk about crime today, it's fundamentally different than the way that we talked about crime in bringing crime down. Right. And I think that we all share in the goals of having as low a crime rate as possible. I think that, you know, during lockdown, of course, rhetoric in that time is not rhetoric that we would use today. And I'm grateful that these candidates have the opportunity to present who they are to their electorate and what they're campaigning on in this moment.
- [16:27]
Jonathan Karl
Cause, you know, and obviously the Democratic socialists of America are having quite a moment. But you know how Republicans are responding. Let me just give you a brief sampling.
- [16:38]
Donna Brazile
Sure.
- [16:41]
Jake Auchincloss
Let's call it what it is.
- [16:43]
Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez
It's communism.
- [16:44]
Donna Brazile
The Commie caucus is coming to Congress.
- [16:47]
Mark Esper
Communism is on the ballot this November. We're not going to turn his country into a communist experiment.
- [16:53]
Jonathan Karl
Well, you can kind of get a sense of the theme. And obviously the President has said the same thing. By the way, just a quick definitional thing. What, in your mind, is the difference between socialism and communism?
- [17:04]
Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez
I think, to me, the fundamental differences, I mean, there's many. One prevailing one is democracy. And I believe that democratic socialists are fundamentally pro democracy. And we believe in the ballot box. We believe in respecting the outcomes of elections and governing democratically and ensuring that the ideas and policies that are implemented are won through popular vote and popular opinion. And so I think that's why so much of what we focus on is also making sure that we are providing for the majority of Americans, guaranteeing health care, raising wages, strengthening the right to a union. And I think that that's at its core what we're about.
- [17:57]
Jonathan Karl
Are you still a member of Democratic Socialists of America?
- [18:00]
Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez
Of the New York City chapter?
- [18:01]
Jonathan Karl
The New York City chapter, not the National.
- [18:03]
Donna Brazile
No.
- [18:04]
Jonathan Karl
And what's the difference?
- [18:06]
Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez
So every DSA chapter is. Is formed locally. And so the New York City DSA chapter, those are folks that, you know, it's kind of like your local union chapter and.
- [18:20]
Donna Brazile
Yeah, so.
- [18:21]
Jonathan Karl
Cause I. And I know there was that strange moment in 2024 when the national chapter, like, took away your endorsement.
- [18:28]
Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez
Yes.
- [18:29]
Jonathan Karl
But I was looking through the DSA program, and this is the national program. I'm sure you've seen the document. It was adopted just a few months ago. But some of the positions here. Defund the Department of Def. Close overseas military bases, abolish the police and prison system, Grant amnesty to all immigrants in the U.S. replace the Supreme Court and executive Judiciary with a chosen by lower and lower to Congress. Abolish the Senate, public ownership of corporations and essential industries. I mean, those are some positions that you're going to be hearing a lot about this fall from Republicans.
- [19:08]
Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez
And I think we're also going to be hearing a lot about Donald Trump's commitment to getting us into a reckless war in Iran, his collaboration with big companies to make sure that everything from groceries to rent stay sky high. And I think that people are less interested in these academic debates, and they're more interested in how we're going to bring their bills down and make sure that they can afford to see a doctor.
- [19:31]
Jonathan Karl
But do you see? I mean, are those positions you support?
- [19:35]
Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez
No, but I think that this is a free country. Everyone can have all sorts of beliefs and they can organize around them, and you're free to do what you like and, you know, have conversations with your neighbors. But my job as an elected official is to guarantee healthcare in America, and that's what I'm focused on, and that's what I seek to do.
- [19:55]
Jonathan Karl
And what do you say to the moderate Democrats who say, first of all, that, you know, they are capitalists and that those positions are gonna doom the Democratic Party because, again, they're not positions that are supporting them.
- [20:09]
Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez
Yeah, I mean, of course they're free to have their economic identity as they like. And, you know, in terms of dooming the party, the idea that there's a diversity of thought in America among everyday voting people is a fundamental fact of our country. I don't think that we should be worried about what somebody somewhere believes. I think we should be focused on what our plan to improve people's lives are.
- [20:37]
Jonathan Karl
Another person who's been made an issue is Hasan Piker, who obviously endorsed Abdul Al Said in Michigan. You've been on his live stream, you know, at least a few times. He's somebody who said, you know, that America deserved 9, 11. Now he backed off from that.
- [20:55]
Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez
Yes, yes, he's a politician, but he
- [20:56]
Jonathan Karl
said a lot of, he said a lot of controversial things. Is he somebody that should have a role in the progressive movement going forward?
- [21:04]
Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez
You know, I think when we look at our elections that have happened, we have lost young people. Much hate was made about the fact that we lost young men in the last election. And many of the same consultants that are ringing their hands today were the same ones talking about how we need to go on Joe Rogan and we need to be not, not so, you know, willing to engage in cancel culture. And I think that the flip flopping on this is a tactical debate that they may be having. I think the fact of the matter is, is that Democrats can go on Joe Rogan, Democrats can go on Fox News. Democrats have a responsibility to build a winning coalition. And young people are engaging in mediums and conversations that we have a responsibility to attend to and be responsive to. And even right now, when we look at this insurgent wave of what is happening oftentimes when people are doing that Monday morning quarterbacking and what demographics voted where the big one that's being ignored is the generational tidal wave.
- [22:25]
Jonathan Karl
You see it in the polling. It is significant.
- [22:28]
Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez
Millennials are not, you know, punk kids anymore.
- [22:32]
Jonathan Karl
Yeah.
- [22:33]
Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez
We're grown adults with mortgages and kids. And we that generation is starting to be decisive at the polls. And there is anger at being ignored, sidelined, having our economic futures mortgaged by the generations that came before us on everything from the economy to climate. And we're taking the reins.
- [22:59]
Jonathan Karl
So I want to. We're almost out of time to get to your future. I'm sure you saw the poll in New Hampshire that had you as the leading candidate, leading choice for Democrats. First of all, are you going to run for president?
- [23:14]
Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez
I mean, I'm focused on winning the midterms. I'm running for Congress right now.
- [23:21]
Jonathan Karl
But I mean, do you see this as something I know you've said, you're open to it. Is it a realistic possibility for you?
- [23:26]
Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez
I haven't. Well, I haven't ruled out the possibility. And I'm very humbled to the tremendous amount of support out there. I think that we have a responsibility to remain focused on the midterms and not on our individual aspirations or plans.
- [23:45]
Jonathan Karl
And running for Senate against Chuck Schumer Is that also something that's possible?
- [23:48]
Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez
I mean, I think that anything is possible at this juncture.
- [23:52]
Jonathan Karl
All right, and then before you go, you did have a personal announcement that you made. It was interesting to see you kind of open up in, you know, on an Instagram live, I believe it was. So tell me what it was and why you said it.
- [24:05]
Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez
Yeah. You know, I think it's important for us to normalize these conversations, especially in this political environment. The Trump administration has.
- [24:13]
Jonathan Karl
Remind us what the announcement was.
- [24:15]
Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez
Yeah, sure. So I have decided to start the process of freezing my eggs. And in this political environment where this administration is denying reproductive care to women across the country, from abortion rights to the ability to carry out a healthy pregnancy, I think it's important for us as leaders to have these conversations and share these processes, especially for working women across the country, and normalize them.
- [24:43]
Jonathan Karl
Okay. All right. Congresswoman Ocasio Cortez, thank you very much for being here. We hope to talk to you again soon.
- [24:49]
Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez
Thank you.
- [24:50]
Jonathan Karl
And when you're ready to make that decision about 2028, I'll let you know. Come back and talk to us about it. Okay. Next up, that viral clip from a DSA candidate for governor in Wisconsin about canceling Thanksgiving. The roundtable is next.
- [25:06]
Announcer
Support comes from Wise. The smart way to manage the currencies you need around the globe. Are you fed up with losing out the hidden fees when you send money abroad with your everyday bank? Choose the smart way Wise. You can count on the exchange rate you'd usually find on Google. No unwelcome surprises. Plus, ditch that where's my money feeling.
- [25:25]
Jonathan Karl
Most transfers arrive in under 20 seconds.
- [25:27]
Announcer
Join millions saving billions on hidden fees. Be smart. Get wise.
- [25:32]
Jonathan Karl
Download the wise app now.
- [25:35]
Announcer
T's and C's apply.
- [25:37]
Jonathan Karl
FX presents the Shards Los Angeles, 1981. We're gonna roll the school.
- [25:41]
Jake Auchincloss
Don't we already?
- [25:43]
Jonathan Karl
It was supposed to be the best
- [25:44]
Announcer
year of their lives. I wanted to see Stab someone for
- [25:47]
Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez
a drink right now.
- [25:48]
Jonathan Karl
Until their friends started going missing.
- [25:51]
Jake Auchincloss
There's something going on.
- [25:52]
Jonathan Karl
From executive producer Ryan Murphy. And based on the best selling thriller
- [25:56]
Announcer
by Brett Easton ellis.
- [25:58]
Jonathan Karl
Sounds terrifying. FX's the shards, now streaming on Hulu.
- [26:07]
Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez
Bringing folks around the table to share conversation and build community is always a good thing. But Thanksgiving is also a time that's incredibly painful for many people in our communities. And so I think there, I wanted to make sure that people understood that there are multiple views, but views can evolve.
- [26:27]
Jonathan Karl
All right, that's Francesca Hong, who, if the polls are accurate, is the overwhelming frontrunner. In the Democratic primary for governor in Wisconsin. Let's bring in the roundtable former DNC chair Donna Brazile, Democratic Congressman Jake Auchincloss of Massachusetts, Republican strategist Scott Jennings, and former New Jersey Governor Chris Christie. All right, Donna, you heard from aoc. I know you have not been, you've been one that's been a little bit concerned about Democratic socialists kind of taking over the party, helping to nominate people who can't win general elections. What you make of her reaction to all that?
- [27:04]
Donna Brazile
Well, first of all, I think she's a smart politician. She clearly has spent some years in Congress understanding that you got to build a coalition, that you got to go out there and represent your values and views. But as you know, I've been in this big tent party probably longer than most people, and I can tell you we're having the same kind of growing pains I saw on the Republican side, whether it was through the Tea Party in 2010, the activists who helped to bring about the Maga movement, we've seen this tension both on the right and the populism that, you know, created a wave election over the last several decades. And now on the left, now the left is insurgent in some cases. In most cases, you know what, the establishment, the moderates are still winning. But here's one thing Reverend Jackson taught me long time ago. A party needs two wings to fly. And unless we can have both wings, the progressive wing and the moderate wing, we won't be able to fly and win in November.
- [28:01]
Jonathan Karl
Congressman, what's your take?
- [28:03]
Jake Auchincloss
Alex is right that the party needs renewal. Voters are furious at the status quo and want change. And I think that renewal needs to be paired with trust. And here's where Democrats should learn from mayors and local leaders, because trust is highest at the lowest level of government in America. Those local leaders who came in as Democrats five, six, seven years ago wanted to make shoplifting okay, kept the schools closed too long. They got repudiated by voters real bad. Now, those mayors who came in who took a public health and law enforcement approach to homelessness, who built more housing to make housing more affordable, those are the ones who are on the ascent. I'd like to see the national party adopt the platforms that have been working at the local level, where that feedback loop with reality is and not the
- [28:46]
Jonathan Karl
national platform of the Democratic Socialists of America. But Scott, I mean, you're going to make that Republicans are going to make that Democratic Party. I mean, that's what you're going to be portraying them as, of course.
- [28:59]
Scott Jennings
And it would Be an honest thing to do, because that's what it is. And with all due respect to my friend Donna, there's nothing like you can't draw any equivalence between the Tea Party movement and the Socialists. For one, the Tea Party folks weren't trying to bring about the downfall of Western civilization and the United States of America. Abolish the police, Abolish ice. Abolish borders. Abolish the Senate. Abolish the Constitution. There was nothing like this in the Republican Party. So it's an extreme political ideology that is gaining traction. The Democrat leadership has lost control. They know it. And people like Alexandria Ocasio Cortez Hong in Wisconsin, Abdul El Sayed in Michigan. You talk about the big tent. The Democrat Jewish Attorney general of Michigan cannot even go to her party's nominating convention because she says, I won't be safe there because of the supporters of Abdul El Sayed. You can't draw any equivalence between what happened in the Republican Party with a resurgence of patriot conservatives versus these anti American radicals.
- [30:02]
Announcer
Yeah, look, and I listened really carefully to what Congresswoman Ocasio Cortez said this morning. You know, every position that Scott just laid out, when you presented it to her, she talked about backing off, changing her views, evolving views.
- [30:19]
Jonathan Karl
Woke one was crazy.
- [30:21]
Announcer
Woke one was crazy. Which we never heard her say before. Look, I think the congressman put it correctly, that there's two parts to this. It's what are you talking about? And do we trust what you're saying? And after listening to the congressman, why should anyone trust her? The things that she has said previously, now when she senses that she didn't know what she was talking about and she was out of touch with the American people and now wants to advance her career, now all of a sudden she's saying different things. And I have to say, when you play at the Francisca Hong part, I can tell you this. The Republican Governors association is giddy over what will happen on Tuesday because we're gonna hold people like her and the congresswoman to what they've said over their careers, not what they're trying to conveniently evolve into.
- [31:10]
Jake Auchincloss
Now, there are two important days in November. One is Thanksgiving. Of course Democrats celebrate Thanksgiving. That's a ridiculous statement that Ms. Hong made. And there's Election Day. And when Donald Trump tried to steal a free and fair election, Republicans went mute. And Americans will remember that as well.
- [31:30]
Donna Brazile
And you know who has given the red carpet more? The Communists than Donald Trump. He laid out the red carpet to Putin. He's going to put the red Carpet out again for Mr. Xi in a couple of weeks. So I'm not going to get into a false argument with Republicans who really don't have much to say about November because they have not addressed the how to lower costs for the American people when you have three different caucuses in the Republican Party in the House that can agree on budget spending. So this is not a conversation about who's more of a patriot. The Democratic Socialists of America is an organization that's not our platform in 2024, and it's not our platform in 2026. It's an organization, and they've won some. They've lost a lot. And so we keep having these false conversations because it animates people on the right so they don't have to talk about how to lower costs. So don't tell me about socialism. There's another holiday that I like in November, and that's Veteran Day. And there are Democrats who are standing up for our military, our servicemen and women, and they want us to end this war in Iran.
- [32:34]
Mark Esper
But you are worried about it.
- [32:35]
Donna Brazile
Have that conversation.
- [32:36]
Scott Jennings
But you are worried about it because the Democrat. Because the Democrat Party changed your nominating calendar to try to rig it against the Socialists.
- [32:43]
Donna Brazile
Oh, rig it against the socialists. No. And he moved it to South Carolina. We changed our nominating calendar 20 years ago because we wanted to enlarge the table. We believe that every American, from factory workers to college students to, yes, black and Hispanic voters, should have a say on who our nominees should be. And what we did in 2028, and hopefully we will vote on it next week, is that we even brought in the table even wider.
- [33:07]
Announcer
John, let me say something that everybody should be concerned about as we go into this election and the one in 2028. We have a president now who has little to no appreciation of history. And we've seen him over and over again when he gets it wrong and then uses it for his own purposes. And now we have a group of people, and you're asking Congresswoman Ocasio Cortez this morning whether she's gonna run for president, a woman who has taken socialist positions over and over again. If she had an appreciation of history, she would know that socialism has nothing to do with democracy and that every place where socialism has thrown Eugene Deb's
- [33:44]
Jonathan Karl
got more than a million votes Congratulations to him.
- [33:48]
Announcer
But the fact is it has nothing to do with democracy and socialism everywhere. It's been tried around the world has failed in two fundamental ways. But it's destroyed economic hope, John, and it has also destroyed democratic aspirations. And that's what the DSA stands for. And Scott laid out those points very, very well. And Republicans will be talking about the argument.
- [34:10]
Donna Brazile
It's against the dsa, not the dnc. Come and argue with us about how we lower costs.
- [34:16]
Jonathan Karl
Just a second.
- [34:16]
Announcer
You guys get your stories first.
- [34:18]
Jake Auchincloss
How do you know?
- [34:18]
Donna Brazile
Well, we have.
- [34:19]
Jake Auchincloss
How do you.
- [34:19]
Jonathan Karl
How do you deal with the fact that you do see this? You know, the socialist part of the party, and it's a minority of the party right now.
- [34:27]
Donna Brazile
It's an organization. It's not a party.
- [34:29]
Mark Esper
Nope.
- [34:30]
Jonathan Karl
Of the Democratic Party. I mean, clearly there's energy there, but it's not, at least in today's facts, anywhere near a majority position.
- [34:38]
Jake Auchincloss
No one third of Americans are devoted to Donald Trump. Two thirds of Americans are open to a new agenda and are frustrated with the status quo. And the opportunity for my faction of the party is to make a positive, proactive platform to that two thirds of Americans. It can't be who we're against. Americans know we don't like Donald Trump. It has to be what we are for. What we are for is a new American dream, an excellent education by the time you're 18, a home of your own by the time you're 30, and a dignified retirement by the time you're 65. And it is freedom that delivers that. Free minds, free enterprise, free elections, freedom from fear.
- [35:12]
Jonathan Karl
And what do you say to those say the answer to that is nationalized health care, even government ownership of corporations. I mean, what do you say to that faction, the other faction in your party that doesn't believe capitalism works?
- [35:28]
Jake Auchincloss
I believe in free enterprise. And for free enterprise to flourish, you have to be willing to go after both government overreach, like with housing, where zoning and land use does tangle up housing production and corporate monopoly, like in health care. We got these drug pricing middlemen owned by the insurance companies jacking up prescription drug prices. I am agnostic, where I see a problem that is keeping prices high and preventing Americans from affording gas, groceries, health care. I will go after it.
- [35:53]
Donna Brazile
How about the Deer End theory? If you're a communist, you have two cows, you give them both to the government. If you're a socialist, you have two cows, you give one to your neighbor. But if you're a capitalist, you have two cows, you sell one and you get a bull.
- [36:06]
Announcer
Okay.
- [36:07]
Jonathan Karl
All right, we've got to take a quick break. The roundtable is sticking around. But up next, Iran's latest move in the Strait of Hormuz and the ultimatum that the Iranians just delivered to the United States. We'll be joined by former Trump Defense Secretary Mark Esper when we come back.
- [36:25]
Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez
There's a headline every 30 minutes for our show, I'm pretty sure. Welcome to Get Real.
- [36:29]
Announcer
I'm your host, Amanda Hirsch. This is the show for the reality TV obsessed. You thought the show was crazy living.
- [36:35]
Jake Auchincloss
It was crazy.
- [36:36]
Jonathan Karl
I was dripping sweat before I even started.
- [36:38]
Announcer
For the stars and stans of the
- [36:41]
Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez
Hula reality verse, do we think she's stirring the pot to secure a place on the show? Find and listen to Get Real wherever you get your podcasts and stream new episodes Thursdays on Hulu and Hulu on Disney terms apply.
- [36:54]
Jonathan Karl
Hi, Ryan Reynolds here for Mint Mobile.
- [36:56]
Jake Auchincloss
Are you looking for a beach read this summer?
- [36:58]
Jonathan Karl
May I suggest your big wireless bill?
- [37:00]
Jake Auchincloss
It's got suspense, mystery, a slightly flat emotional arc, and a shocking twist where
- [37:05]
Announcer
you realize you've been overpaying the entire time. Fortunately, though, Mint's story is better.
- [37:09]
Jake Auchincloss
Every plan $15 a month, even unlimited.
- [37:12]
Mark Esper
That's it.
- [37:12]
Announcer
Happy ending, zero tears. Give it a try@mintmobile.com Switch upfront payment
- [37:17]
Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez
of $45 for three months, $90 for six months or $180 for a 12 month plan required $15 per month equivalent taxes and fees. Extra initial plan term only greater than 50 gigabytes. May slow when network is busy.
- [37:24]
Jonathan Karl
See terms this morning, another big setback in Iran. The Iranians are refusing to reopen the Strait of Hormuz. I'm joined now by former Trump Defense Secretary Mark Esper. So, Secretary Esper, let me start right there. I mean, the president told the world just a few days ago that the Strait of Hormuz was about to be completely open within 24 hours. And the Iranians are now saying it. Unless America meets a long list of demands.
- [37:54]
Mark Esper
Right? Yes, they put forward disagreement, Jonathan. Apparently they had been talking for a week or so with Oman about opening up a northern route into the Gulf and a southern route out of the Gulf along Oman that they both would control or administer. Unclear what that means. But now we know that while that agreement sits on a precipice, they have put forward demands of the United States which frankly are reduced, ridiculous and should be rejected out of hand. Demands such as the withdrawal of all US Forces from the region, reimbursement for the costs of the war, the fact that we would end our blockade, we would end sanctions. So it's gone beyond the pale. But what it tells you is two things, Jonathan. First of all, they haven't apparently left Any room for negotiation. And we know that's important. President Trump wants to pursue that, and rightly so. But secondly, and more importantly, it shows that they believe they have the upper hand. They believe they are winning and they are emboldened. And that's what we're up against right now after, what, five and a half months of conflict.
- [38:52]
Jonathan Karl
So I want to play you something that Vice President Vance said just before the Iranians came out and said this. I mean, we're talking just within a matter of hours. This is what he had to say about the Iranians and the prospects for a deal to end all of this. Take a listen. They're hurting in a big way. They want this thing to be over. The question is whether they're able, their system is able to give the things that are necessary for us to be happy, for us to feel like we've gotten what we need out of this particular engagement. That is still to be determined. But I do think that we've made
- [39:27]
Mark Esper
some progress over the last few days.
- [39:29]
Jonathan Karl
I mean, how do you explain the disconnect? Are the president and the vice president getting real information about what's happening on the ground? Because it sure seems like they're talking about two totally different realities.
- [39:45]
Mark Esper
Well, it's true that they are struggling economically. They're in the worst crisis they faced as a regime in 47 plus years. I mean, inflation's at 88% and the country is struggling. But at the same time, the military, the irgc, is clearly in charge. They are calling the shots. There is fragmentation. Of course, we know that the president of the country, Pyshashkian, is pushing for a negotiation. He wants to provide some economic relief. And so you have this happening at the same time. So look, with the military in charge and at the same time the economy being weakened, I've argued that we should really pursue an economic blockade of the country, not just of the strait, but of all entry points, air, ground and sea routes. We should sanction them. And importantly, we should internationalize this conflict. This is having global impacts. So we should multilateralize it. Get our Asian allies on board, our European allies, others around the world, and really put economic pressure on this country and slowly strangle it until they come back to the negotiation table in a serious way.
- [40:43]
Jonathan Karl
And how serious is the shortage of munitions that we're now hearing about? It seems like, you know, almost a desperate situation in terms of shortage, especially of anti missile defense systems like the Patriot.
- [40:57]
Mark Esper
It is a serious situation. It goes back to the end of the Cold War and decisions we made between them and then with the onset of the Iraq and Afghanistan wars. And frankly, it accelerated during the Biden administration when we were expending munitions or giving munitions to Ukraine. And it's, of course, in the last six, seven months, it's really taken a toll that we now find ourselves considerably low with regard to interceptors such as Patriot and Thaad, and to some ground attack weapons as well. And look, when I look at the world, I'm most concerned about China and the messages it may be sending there and the deterrent effect of our munitions stockpiles and more importantly, of our defense industrial base. So it's something that we have to be watched carefully out for. I know as Secretary of Defense, I certainly did. I was always attuned in our operational plans to estimated casualties, estimated impacts on the readiness of the force, and of course, our munition stockpiles. So this is something that is with us. It's not new. It's been reported multiple times. The Secretary of Defense spoke about it during one of his hearings in the past few months, and we have other reports coming out. And in fact, there was this news story today or last night that Deputy Secretary of Defense Feinberg at the Pentagon. Yeah. Feinberg, who's done a solid job on this front, has issued an order to the defense companies to report in the next three weeks about what they're going to do to accelerate weapons production. So the administration is trying hard in multiple ways, but when you're talking about taking two years to build a Patriot missile, whatever we do now is not going to help in the short term, but nonetheless needs to be done for strategic reasons.
- [42:31]
Jonathan Karl
And finally, just a big picture question. We've heard the President repeatedly threaten to have big attacks on Iran and then back off, claiming there was progress on negotiations. By my count, he's done this seven times. What does that do to America's credibility around the world? How do our adversaries start to view those threats when they're threat, back off, threat, back off, and the cycle continues?
- [42:57]
Mark Esper
Well, clearly the Iranians have figured this out. They are not reacting to these threats, and they are taking very strategic positions with regard to this. And so you saw them over the last week put forward again this Omani plan that they're going to unveil at some point. But these demands they've now raised last night show that they are emboldened, that they feel confident about their position in the world, and at the same time, they are flexing their muscles by using their proxy. So we know that the Houthis just this morning attacked the Saudi refinery on the Red Sea. Yesterday, Iran attacked the UAE ship. But they've also, they being Tehran, have tried to expand this conflict. There was long shots taken at an Egyptian port on the Mediterranean Sea to show the range of their weapons. And they've gone so far as to threaten US Ally, NATO ally Bulgaria about supporting US Operations from there. So they're expanding the conflict in many ways.
- [43:48]
Jonathan Karl
All right. Secretary Esper, thank you very much for joining us this morning. Coming up, will the Iran war dragging on cost Republicans the midterms? Our roundtable debates that when we come back. All right, we're back with the roundtable. So Governor Christie, how does Trump handle this latest with Iran? I mean, he told us just a few days ago the strait's about to be open. Everything's going to be fine. I mean, what does he do?
- [44:13]
Announcer
Look, the real problem here is it was an adventure without a plan. And now, you know, I've struck this week when the Iranians put out their list of demands to reopen the strait, reparations. Yeah, et cetera. What struck me was that Donald Trump is about to become what he never, ever wanted to be. Jimmy Carter.
- [44:37]
Jake Auchincloss
Yes.
- [44:37]
Announcer
He is being held hostage by Iran. They are holding the Strait of Hormuz hostage. As a result, they're holding the world economy hostage. And it's focused at Donald Trump. And I know from talking to him over the last 24 years, the one person he would never want to be,
- [44:53]
Jonathan Karl
Jimmy Carter, talked to him about Jimmy Carter, too.
- [44:56]
Announcer
And here we are. And it was all voluntary.
- [45:00]
Jonathan Karl
So you have a thought on this?
- [45:03]
Jake Auchincloss
I fought in one failed forever war. I don't want Americans to be fighting in another. We've already lost 18American service members. And the only way that we get off course from a third quagmire in the Middle east of the 21st century is for Congress to take back the steering wheel from this impaired driver. And that means Americans need to elect Democrats in November and we can pass the war powers resolutions, enforce them and prevent him from, from deepening the imbroglio that has already caused higher prices and a weakened America.
- [45:33]
Jonathan Karl
I mean, he's trying to get out. It's like the Iranians are not cooperating. But let's switch to the domestic side of this. Scott, you heard the president just a short while ago there say that voters are angry at Republicans, not angry at me, they're angry at Republicans. Is he right on both sides?
- [45:51]
Scott Jennings
Well, I think he might have been talking about Republican voters. And I'll be honest I've been all over the country this year, and they are a little upset with congressional leaders over the SAVE act is one thing, and they see Trump fighting for that and they see Congress with an inability to pass it. Now, most congressmen, Republican congressmen, are for it, but obviously the Senate's been a little ungovernable on this issue and a few others. So he's not wrong that the Republican grassroots is quite upset. What he has to do is convince them that no matter who you're upset with, the alternative is worse. I mean, this has to be a contrast election, and Republican voters trust him to make that argument. He, he is the one that has to make it. You know, one of the technical, tactical issues for the Republican Party is getting those voters who love Trump but may not love other politicians to turn out. And he's got to have to make the point that if you don't elect Republicans this fall, they're going to impeach me again and every other bad thing you don't want to have happen.
- [46:45]
Donna Brazile
No, they're going to hold him accountable. They're going to hold him accountable. They're going to hold the entire Republican controlled Congress accountable if Democrats prevail in November. Look, Donald Trump should know one thing. The American people are very upset. They're angry at him. They're angry at his preoccupation with his ballroom, angry at his preoccupation with putting little gold things all over the White House and all over the city of Washington, D.C. they're angry at him because he's not focused on the priorities of the American people. Kitchen table issues. They, he should know. They're very upset. They're very upset. Not just with him, but they're also upset with the Republican control.
- [47:20]
Jonathan Karl
So, Chris, he's also, I mean, he is very focused, though, on some things. I mean, he's very, very focused on the ballroom and he is very focused on the reflecting pole. And we saw him say that he wants Jeanine Pirro, somebody you know very well.
- [47:35]
Announcer
I do.
- [47:37]
Jonathan Karl
She dropped the case, said, look, there's no case of vandalism against this, you know, former Olympian. He just said this weekend that he wants her to reconsider that.
- [47:49]
Announcer
Well, let me separate what you just put there in terms of the ballroom and the reflecting pool. While it's entertaining for a lot of people, I disagree with Don. I don't think that's what they're upset about. I think what they're upset about is that the president promised to lower prices. The president promised to focus on domestic things. And they haven't done it. Now, on the Jeanine Pirro thing, this goes to the whole Department of Justice question. And Todd Blanch was confirmed 50 to 49. And now he has got the job for the next two and a half years to be the attorney general. He's got to decide.
- [48:23]
Jonathan Karl
Unless he's fired.
- [48:24]
Announcer
Well, I mean, yes, but, you know, I think he's got to decide. What's he going to do now as the Attorney General? Not the acting, but the attorney General. And this Jeanine Pirro thing is one of the early things that he's got to decide. She, as we talked about a week or so ago, she stepped up and did the right thing. She didn't have the evidence, and she walked away from the case. Now the question is, is her boss either the President, United States or the Attorney general could put pressure on her to go back and redo it. Those are the things that the American people will be disquieted by when the justice system is not working in a way that is fair to people across the country, regardless of their political party or their opinion about the president.
- [49:07]
Jonathan Karl
Do you think Trump would fire her?
- [49:09]
Announcer
Well, I think he would be willing to fire anybody at this point, but I think this one's gonna be a hard one for him because whoever he puts there when he's done that before, it hasn't worked out. Remember the Comey indictment?
- [49:22]
Jonathan Karl
Yeah.
- [49:22]
Announcer
Remember the Letitia James indictment when he put new people in those spots just to do that? It hasn't worked, so he'd be concerned about that. I think.
- [49:29]
Donna Brazile
Donna, she has ice in her blood. I wouldn't cross if it was, you know, go ahead and walk across the street. She's tough, she's smart, and she knew exactly what she was doing. She had no case she. Against Mr. Hearn and those other individuals who went to the reflecting pool and saw that Donald Trump pool guy couldn't put down the paint, so he won't fire her.
- [49:52]
Jonathan Karl
All right, on that note, quick break. We'll be right back. Sophistication, class, restraint, dignity. None of these words have anything to do with Super Troopers 1, 2, 3.
- [50:08]
Announcer
Go.
- [50:10]
Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez
Barbara in the house.
- [50:11]
Jake Auchincloss
Hope you guys aren't too drunk.
- [50:12]
Jonathan Karl
Already now in theaters. No new info on the guy who did it. Oh, so it couldn't have been a woman.
- [50:17]
Donna Brazile
Sexist.
- [50:18]
Jonathan Karl
You ever see Ocean's 8?
- [50:19]
Announcer
Enough.
- [50:19]
Jonathan Karl
Super Troopers 3?
- [50:20]
Announcer
Meow.
- [50:21]
Jonathan Karl
Playing only in theaters. Rated R. Under 17. Not admitted without peril.
- [50:26]
Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez
ESPN Fantasy Football is now the official fantasy game of the NFL. The 2026 fantasy football season is going to be the best one yet with new app enhancements including NFL highlights in the Fantasy app so you can track your team live every week, get expert insights from our fantasy analysts and try our new knockout leagues where the lowest scoring team is eliminated each week until one team remains. Download the ESPN Fantasy app for free today and sign up to play the number one fantasy game.
- [50:57]
Jonathan Karl
All right, that's all for today. Thank you for sharing part of your Sunday with us. Check out World News tonight and have a great day.
- [51:17]
Scott Jennings
Mysteries unravel and stunning truths are revealed when 2020 investigates.
- [51:21]
Donna Brazile
Follow the clues, the evidence, the breaking
- [51:23]
Jonathan Karl
new details, ABC's 2020 True Murder Mystery shocking.
- [51:29]
Jake Auchincloss
If you follow true crime in 2000
- [51:30]
Jonathan Karl
and 20, then you've got to listen to this. Subscribe now to 2020True Crime plus ad free exclusive true crime content search 2020True Crime plus on Apple Podcasts and start your free trial terms apply.