Transcript
A (0:00)
Welcome to Thoughts on the Market. I'm Andrew Sheats, head of Corporate Credit Research at Morgan Stanley.
B (0:05)
And I'm Vishwas Patkar, Head of US Credit Strategy at Morgan Stanley.
A (0:09)
Today on the program we're going to have the first in a series of conversations covering our outlook for credit around the world. It's Wednesday, June 4th at 2pm in.
B (0:20)
London, at 9am in New York.
A (0:23)
Vishwas along with many of our colleagues at Morgan Stanley, we recently updated our 12 month outlook for credit markets around the world, focusing on your specialty, the U.S. how do you read the economic backdrop and what do you think it means for credit at a high level?
B (0:39)
So our central scenario of slowing growth, somewhat firm inflation and no rate cuts from the fed until the first quarter of 2026, when I put all of that together, I view that as somewhat mixed for credit. It's good for certain segments of the market, not as good for others. I think the positive on the one side is that with the recent de escalation in trade tens recession risks have gone lower and that's reflected in our economists view as well. I think for an asset class like credit, avoiding that real downside tail I think is important. The other positive in the market today is that the level of all in yields you can get across the credit spectrum is very compelling on many different measures. The negative is that we're still looking at a fair bit of slowing in economic activity and that's a big downshift from where we what we've been used to in the past few years. So I would say we're certainly not in the Goldilocks environment that we saw for credit through the second half of last year. And it's important here for investors to be selective around what they invest in within the credit market.
A (1:48)
So Vishwas, you kind of alluded to this, but 2025 has been a year that so far has been dominated by a lot of these large kind of macro questions around what's going to happen with tariffs, big moves in interest rates, big moves in the US dollar. But credit is an asset class that's ultimately about lending to companies. And so how do you see the credit worthiness of US corporates and how much of a risk is there that with interest rates staying higher for longer than we expected at the start of the year, that becomes a bigger problem?
B (2:19)
Yeah, sure. I think it's a very important question Andrew, because I think taking a call on markets based on the gyrations in headlines is very but in some ways I think this question of the Credit worthiness of US Companies is more important and I think it really helps us filter the signal from the noise that we've seen in markets so far this year. I would say broadly health of corporate balance sheets is pretty good. And in some ways I think it's maybe a more distinguishing feature of this cycle where corporate credit overall is on a firmer footing going into a period of slower growth than what we may have seen in prior instances. And you can sort of look at this balance sheet health along a few different lines in aggregate. We haven't really seen credit markets grow a lot in the last few years. M and A activity, which is usually a harbinger of corporate aggression, has also been fairly muted. In absolute terms. Corporate balance sheet leverage has not grown. And I think we've been in this high interest rate environment which has kept some of these animal spirits at bay. Now what this means is that the level of sensitivity of credit markets to a slowdown in the economy is somewhat lower. It does not mean that credit markets can remain immune no matter what happens to the economy. I think it's clear if we get a recession spread should be a fair bit wider. But I think in our central scenario it makes us more confident than otherwise that credit overall can hold up. Okay, now your question around the risk of rates staying higher. This I think goes back to my point about where in the credit market you're looking. I think up the quality spectrum. I think there are actually there's a lot of demand tailwinds for credit given the pickup in sponsorship we've seen from insurance companies and pension funds in this cycle. At the other end of the quality spectrum, if you're looking at highly levered capital structures, that's where I think the risk of interest rates being high can lead to defaults being sort of around average levels and higher than they would otherwise be.
