B (3:13)

Yeah, don't sell past the close, as they say. No, I love it on.

A (3:17)

Exactly.

B (3:18)

On YouTube, sometimes you'll see, like a fighter pilot grading fighter pilot scenes and what's real and what's not. And it's always fascinating to get that lens. And I think you've brought a little bit of that spirit to what we're going to talk today or talk about today with how hacker films have maybe shaped or warped or sometimes foretold some cybersecurity realities and impacted our culture. From my lens coming into this, about a decade ago, this industry to today, I see how powerful movies and television shows are at moving the public's perception of, you know, what we think of as. As hackers or cybersecurity. And I'm really interested to get into where you see these films really hitting or missing for us.

A (4:11)

Yeah. And I think that's like a great point of the public perception, you know, that it is probably the most digestible medium for, you know, the broader audience to sort of, you know, glean, like, what is cybersecurity like and how is a hack performed? And we'll get into the delusion part a little bit more later. But I think that's like a great point that it is, like, that's the medium that people digest this stuff.

B (4:36)

Yeah. So you've written several of your. Of your essays on films like War Games, the Net Hackers. When you first proposed the series, you know, in the back of your mind, was there a movie that you felt absolutely had to be included because you thought that one was going to be particularly prophetic or maybe you thought it was especially delusional?

A (5:03)

I think, you know, when the series launched, the Net came to mind, you know, just because that was the impetus for this. The one that I really wanted to do, the one I think that maybe affected me the most when I was especially younger was War Games. That was one that I thought, if this series works and people enjoy it, the next one I have to do is War Games. I was very impressionable when I saw this, and I thought, frankly, how easy it was for David Lightman and War Games to hack. So, you know, and then to sort of working for cybersecurity company now to sort of like go back and, you know, well, it's not really like that, but I still. I still love it. So I think the Net and War Games were the first two that I thought, man, we have to do these.

B (5:55)

Yeah. Sometimes when I watch a television show and especially like a, like a police show, and they have the, the footage and they say, enhance, enhance, enhance. And it keeps getting more and more clear. As somebody who's worked with images a bunch in my life, you know, my background in design, I'm going, that's not how that works. There are no more pixels. Like, you can only sharpen so much. And then the same thing I think with you're talking like, you know, click, click, click on the keyboard, I'm in. And it's a little ridiculous, but, you know, it works for the scene, but not for reality. Ben, what was it that drew you specifically to War Games? You know, you mentioned that was one that was close for you.

A (6:36)

You know, that had to have been the first, you know, call what you will the cybersecurity movie I saw as a kid. I think, you know, this, this statute of limitations has run out on this, so I'm happy to share this, is that when I was in high school, I, I hacked, if you will, into my school system and changed my grade. Um, doing the. Yeah, this is a real story. Doing the. Essentially what he did of, of uncovering the password. Not through hacking. So I do hacking in quotes, not through hacking per se, but sort of social. I was maybe more of a social engineer.

B (7:20)

Okay.

A (7:21)

And I, I took what I was doing at the time in high school directly from War Games and I was like, wow, is this, you know, something that, you know, could actually be done? Turns out it could be done. This is however many years ago now, 20 plus years ago. So I think I'm okay. You know, I did get caught and had to do a, you know, some time, if you will, brief suspension, but. No, it's all right. But I think like that was to me, this very, this kid who kind of was on the outside looking in and he saw the, you know, the early stages of the Internet sort of as his playground and was doing it to do really kind of like powerful things. Nothing nefarious and nothing kind of what we, you know, have come to see what hacking is nowadays. Because if you look at War Games, like what he is doing is pretty harmless now. The consequences were pretty dire, but I think for me, like that directly impacted my life in terms of serving a one week suspension or whatever it was they gave me that. I was like, wow, this is such an impactful movie in my life. So again, I had to throw it in there. I'd be irresponsible if I didn't.

B (8:41)

Absolutely. So you went back, you watched War games. Are there any elements that surprised you positively, negatively in terms of their technical plausibility?

A (8:53)

Yeah, I mean, I. I think, you know, the concept of, you know, war dialing when he's, you know, trying to get into the. I think it's the games computer system. You know, the concept is kind of is still relevant today with like robocalling and things like that. Like, that still works. Like I said this, that the backdoor password idea and concept, you know, that it works in this scenario. I think it moves into the implausibility like a little bit like the hack itself. He finds the game administrator and finds out his son's name is Joshua and is like, you know, he literally. The line in the movie is like, it can't be that simple. And he types in Joshua and is like, he's into the system. So I think, like, you know, it's like finding out, like the one thing protecting Fort Knox is like an unlocked screen door. Like, you know, to get into like the Whopper system is a little ludicrous. So, like, that was a little bit implausible. I'm still unsure why the game system was connected to, you know, the defense system at all. And I've seen this movie probably 20 times and I. And then I think, you know, the other element of it is like, this was sort of early stages of, you know, artificial intelligence and machine learning. And I think like where the climax of the movie when he's, you know, they're playing tic tac toe and it's learning, you know, how to play the game and realizing that there's a stalemate. And then they play thousands of tic tac toes in seconds. And then the machine finally comes to the conclusion like, well, this is pointless. The only winning move is not to play the game. I'm not sure an AI system would do that. Just suddenly give up and say, wow, you know what? This is kind of futile. So that I think at the time was very compelling in terms of watching a movie of a computer is like, wow, we can't win. Let's just stop and let's get along. I'm not sure that would ring true today, but again, really, really great in the moment.

B (11:17)

Talk to me about how the portrayal of Joshua and its logic compared to some of the more modern adversarial AI or autonomous systems that we see today.

A (11:28)

Yeah, I think we, you know, at its core, Joshua's logic was to win the game. It's very simple. Uh, you know, the thing with AI is it's not evil. There's no malice. It. You know, this computer was like, I am trying to win the game. That's all I'm trying to do. Um, and. And so if you think about it like this, like, if. If you tell advanced AI like, your job is to eliminate all of my spam emails, well, you know, it might logically conclude I will just get rid of all of your emails and, you know, or shut down your entire system or close off the Internet to you. And it's like, there, I did it. You're welcome. And it's like, well, no, that's not really what I meant. But to the AI, it's like, well, I won the game. You wanted me to stop this, I stopped it. You know, you're welcome. I think, you know, Joshua was playing chess by the rules, was playing the game by the rules now faster than anyone could play chess, was doing it better than anyone could play chess, where I think today, AI Is changing the rules of the game constantly. You know, that it's not like they're, you know, they're not playing by the rules. Like, hey, would you like to play chess? AI and the adversarial AI that we're playing against, it's constantly changing. And, you know, it's like Joshua's logic was so simple as, like, to win the game. Where now the logic behind AI is. Is. You know, I don't want to say nefarious, but it's. It's not confined to the rules of. Of the chessboard, if you will. Right.

B (13:27)

So when we were talking about putting this together, I think you had just written about the Net and how in there, there's this idea of your identity is erased and you're just gone. And I kind of laughed, like, yeah, just because you're removed from the Internet doesn't mean that you're removed from reality and people would still remember you. And that kind of buzzed around my head of, like, how do you go about p. Pulling off the. The trope in this movie, but this is a really important cultural movie, you know, where people were sensing, you know, what it was to be fully online, how important was the Net in shaping our early perceptions of the Internet? And, you know, was it a little dark? Was it a little melodramatic? You know, in a way that was perhaps more Hollywood than reality?

A (14:35)

Yeah, it was. You know, I remember I saw this movie in the theater with my dad. So it was 1995, summer of 95. We just gotten our first computer in the winter of 94.

B (14:51)

By the way, what was your first computer let's go back.

A (14:54)

It was, you know, it was the new. It was the Macintosh. I don't remember that. You know, Apple Macintosh type. Okay, yeah, it was. But it was the big desktop, right. It was enormous. And it was. I mean, it probably took us two, three hours to set it up. You know, the 28.8 modem.

B (15:16)

Sure.

A (15:17)

We didn't. We had AOL, and then we used Gopher. Do you remember Gopher?

B (15:22)

I don't.

A (15:23)

It's like this. It's this, like, hierarchical Internet. So you search in, like, folders almost. So your guide. It's almost like a guided Internet. You know, you're just sort of going from folder to folder. Oh, and it took forever to load, like, a page. So it was very much. You were controlled by what you could see. It was very limited in what you could see. And so I think when I saw the Net in the theater, to go from this hierarchical folder, clicking to like, she's ordering pizza was crazy to me. You know, I do want to touch on your point, too, of, like, you can't, like, deleting somebody you know entirely. Like, this is my dad. We walked out of the movie theater, and he was like, it is ridiculous that Sandra Bullock lives next door to you and you don't know who she is. Like, how is that possible? How would. Nobody would. You know. Nobody would know. Nobody would know you. I actually just rewatched the movie last night, and there's a scene because her mom doesn't know who she is because she has dementia. And so she calls her mom because she's at a care facility, and she's like, mom, can you explain to them who I am? I'm your daughter. I'm Angela Bennett. You know, and the mom can't do it. And I'm yelling at the tv, like, ask anyone else who works there. Like, you've checked in several times to see your mom bills. People know who you. Yeah, exactly. Like you. Like, what are you doing? So just these things in terms of, like, logic are fundamentally flawed. But also, it was like this cultural, like, alarm bell, if you will. Like, I think people saw. Oh, my God, like, the Internet can. I can not only order a pizza, but somebody can, you know, delete my identity. Now, we. We've come to know that as it's not profitable to. To really delete somebody's identity. And I think, you know, identity theft now has moved into, you know, whatever the, you know, the financial incentive is to do that. So I think at the time, it was ludicrous. I mean, it Was like, how could this even happen? But also, people saw the power of, of the Internet. And I think today we sort of see it's very. Because she, she says at one point, you know, it. It's so easy for them to do this because our whole lives are online. And now this is 95. Like, this is before social media. This is before we've actually, like, she ordered the pizza but didn't have to pay for it. Right. This is like. So her credit card information's not in there. It's. But she's talking to people online. She's giving out information online. And the movie was aware enough of that because when they were making it, I think they, they. I read some story that this was one element of it that, like, in order to get back at her, they were going to wipe out her, her identity. For some, she was like an advertising executive. There's like a whole oral history on it. You should read it. It's pretty good. And, and they, they went back to the director and said the writers were like, listen, like this. An advertising executive who's manipulated online by these guys. Like, this doesn't really work. But what if we just focused in on the identity part of it and like them manipulating her to do all these things and one of the writers tells a story that he was like, yeah, we pitch it to the director and he just like tore his rotator cuff playing tennis and he was on all these pills and he wasn't really with it and he just, he just looked at us and was like, yeah, that sounds good. Do it. And so they ra it. And oh, man.

B (19:07)

Sometimes you get lucky that somebody's a little loopy.

A (19:10)

Sometimes you get lucky. But I think, you know, it's. The digital identity is. It did show us then and it's true now. Like, the digital identity is fragile and the systems we trust, a lot of the times can, you know, turn on us in the wrong hands.

B (19:29)

Yeah. And I think that you're right. The model of deleting somebody and exploiting them individually is no, there's no profit there in comparison to, you know, stealing that identity and turning it into a synthetic and selling it or using it to, you know, grab other, other credit cards or other open loans. Those sorts of things certainly seem like it's more likely that you'd want to be quiet if you stole the identity that you had done that. And in this case, it kind of went the other direction. But it did make for some, some interesting cinema, some entertaining cinema. You know, it's been, what, 30 years. What do you think the next most single enduring cinematic legacy is?

A (20:15)

I mean it has to be digital paranoia. You know, it's, it's, it's still resonant with, you know, you, everyone knows somebody who is like I'm not on social media, I don't buy anything on online with credit cards. I, you know, my, my father in law, he still pays his bills by check and is like I'm not paying any bill online. So is. No matter how secure, you know, we can say a system is, there's people still have that digital paranoia out there of like what, what this was and like what it could be. You know, I think in 1995 people's experience being online was like really primitive. And it's, you know, think about War Games even. It's like black screen, green text. But like the Net was this mainstream movie with a, with a major movie star at the time. You know, she's coming off speed. It's huge. This is her next big thing. And it really made this, you know, we talked about this at the top that it's like Hollywood made this like mainstream. The Internet as a powerful tool, but also like as sort of a dangerous tool that people you know are even to this day are still afraid of 30, 30 years on.

B (22:06)

Well, let's, let's talk about hackers for a minute. You know, this is that like let's do it cult cyber movie, you know, this, this is, this film has cult status amongst tech audience. I'm sure there's a, there's a good size VIN diagram with threat vector listeners who are also fans of or at least aware of hackers. Maybe it's been a minute because that one was, what was that? 95 as well.

A (22:35)

95. So that was. Yeah, the net was 7-7-95, I believe, and then hackers was 9-9-95. So kind of that like Armageddon, Deep impact like Hollywood was doing. Yeah, yeah, exactly.

B (22:48)

You know Ben, from your writing, which scenes deserve the need to be re evaluated?

A (22:57)

Okay. I think as we get through talking about hackers, I want to say the top of this, like I love hackers. It was when I first wrote about it and posted about it. I think it got the most engagement. People were excited about it. People had their own stories about it. So I want to get that out of the way. Having said that, it's, it's the most delusional movie we've done so far in terms of like, in terms of like substance and style. Like it's, it's, it's ridiculous at Times, it's. I'm not saying it's not entertaining, but, you know, to say, like, which scenes deserve to be reevaluated.

B (23:39)

It.

A (23:39)

We need a full. Another podcast episode to do it. But I. I think when they hack the Gibson, which is the film's supercomputer, for those of you who haven't seen it, they're not looking at lines of code. They're literally flying through, like, a psychedelic 3D cityscape. And, like, towers are pulsating, and there are these data streams that are shimmering. And, you know, it's. It's. I don't understand like, how they thought that made sense, but it. You know, again, we talk about War Games and it's a black screen and. And green text and the net where she's typing a lot and flashes of code and things like that. And hackers was like, well, we're going to do something completely different. And so I think, like, that scene was just this Hollywood hacking trope of, you know, it's a Jurassic park did that a little bit when she. The. The girl was trying to get the. The park back online, and she's, like, clicking through different, you know, buildings and folders and things like that. And I'm really like, wow, that's, like, really cool that you can do that. And. And that doesn't really make sense. Hackers just blew that out of the water.

B (24:52)

Yeah.

A (24:53)

And said, like, we're gonna be flying. And it's like, we're in this, like, city that's like a rave and things like that. Like, that is not how it works. For those of you wondering, even to this day, still doesn't work that way. Maybe one day, maybe hackers was 50 years ahead of its time, but the. The whole scene where they're. They're hacking the Gibson is. I mean, that's as delusional as it gets.

B (25:18)

Yeah, I. Earlier, I think you said the word ludicrous.

A (25:20)

And.

B (25:21)

And that's what comes to mind is it was just, like, it was just entertainment. Right. But I think because of the topic it ended up being one of those things that sits in people's minds is like, that's what's going on. You know, there's this mystery. We don't know what's going on in that dark room with those hackers. And then you get these pictures and that sticks in your memory. Right. Like, it's a little easy to remember some of the wild things that come out of a movie, like hackers than, you know, a. A flick of a screen or some Some binary flowing across, you know, in green and black. What did, what did the movie get right though, in terms of maybe, you know, hacker culture or the mindset?

A (26:03)

Yeah, it's, I think it's the ethos of the hacker. You know, they directly talk about the hacker manifesto. You know, it's the, the world of the electron and the switch. What the hackers were doing, I think at the time, like they had a, they had a mission statement, right. It captured the spirit of the subculture and you know, hackers saw the Internet not just like, as a, as a tool, but it was like this like new frontier. And it was, it was kind of the great equalizer to authority. You know, it was very anti authority authoritarianism.

B (26:47)

Right.

A (26:47)

You know, it's, it's, it's about hackers having intellectual curiosity and kind of the belief that information should be free and democratic. And, and those are all like the, especially like the early hacker ethos was very much, you know, centered around those, those concepts, that mission statement, you know, it's, it's devolved, you know, certainly to some extent. And, and we've sort of, you know, like in, in all things, we've two roads diverged in a yellow wood type of thing of like, okay, well, I'm going down this path where it's the great equalizer from a financial incentive for me and, and you're, and you're an attacker or you know, the great defenders of still being like, well this is a great equalizer for me to defend against you. So the ethos is still there. It's just sort of branched off in ways that, you know, are a bit more nefarious today. But you know, certainly the, the, that mission statement at the time was like, it was real. I mean the hacker manifest was real and they, they wrote it directly into this movie. And honestly, kudos to them for, for doing that.

B (28:00)

So back in September, I ended up talking to Kyle Wilhoyt about hacker culture on Threat Vector. And one of the things that he talked about was there was a point when it wasn't so professional to be a defender or a cybersecurity professional. It was a place of curiosity. And you'd ask to quote him what if and anything was possible. And I think that there's then a moment where things change and that even, even in the beginning you were talking about how, you know, you were, you were looking at this inspiration to get into the school and change a grade, right? Like the intent was like, can I do this? Not can I shut down the school? Right? And sure, Maybe you went a little far and changed an A to a B or whatever it was that you did there, Ben. But like, I think that that's one of the things that has also changed. It is, you know, the infusion of money on both sides, the need for risk reduction because of the exposure. And you know, maybe hackers in 1995 is just a fun thing to go back to and look at how, how out of its mind, how delusional the movie was, you know, for, for a forward looking piece. Do you think a Movie like hackers 2, hackers 3, hackers 4 could ever exist in today's world? Or would it be a very, very different type of film?

A (29:43)

Yeah, I mean, well, to go back, I think you hit the nail on the head of just seeing what we could do, seeing what was possible. It wasn't about changing the grade, it was about, you know, can we do this? And, and it was almost like it was about exploration, you know, And I think what Hackers did so great was like capturing that rebellious, almost utopian spirit where if you do, I mean, if you're making hackers 2, 3 and 4, you know, you, you. And we'll get into it. I think some of the later movies and TV shows that, you know, have come out recently and how they kind of captured the hacker ethos and portrayal of them. But, you know, I think hackers 2, 3 and 4 definitely looks like a bit more nefarious. We might be following the bad guys a little bit more. There might be some sort of gray area where. I think when these movies came out, you know, it was black and white. It was, you know, the plague was attacking. I think it was shipping containers and.

B (30:57)

And where you were finding the shipping container is under attack story before, right?

A (31:02)

Exactly. But it was, I mean, it was, it was very black and white. And I think, you know, we're making it today. There's some sort of, you know, gray area and some sort of, you know, what do they call those guys? Antiheroes. And yeah, it's a little bit grayer, but you know, there might be more of a light on the, the defenders, if you will. I think what Hackers did, what was great was like everyone saw them as, as these bad guys, you know, the hackers as bad guys or they're. The FBI's tracking them the whole way and they're fighting against them while fighting this corporate hacker and he's trying to pin it on them. Like it was from a storytelling standpoint, really compelling. But you know, again, this, the style and the Substance of it kind of got in its own way at times. Again, I love hackers, everyone. Don't put me on blast. I do love it.

B (31:54)

Don't at you. How have these movies shaped public perception of hackers over the years, especially as more cyber attacks have occurred?

A (32:04)

I mean, I think, you know, I don't know if it's a hot take, but I think almost exclusively, you know, these movies, you know, for good or bad, it is shaping, you know, public perception. It's, it's shaping policy. It's, it's, you know, think, think about what War Games did and influencing actual policy. You know, with, with you know, Reagan and nsdd, I believe that it's like this is he, he watched the movie and turned to his national security advisor and said, could that happen? And he's like, I don't know, probably. And he's like, okay, we need to this and you know, like hackers. I'm not saying the Hacker Manifesto wasn't, you know, popular, but it was probably less well known. And then what hackers did was popularize it, right? And people, you know this. So it is like these movies, I don't want to say have a responsibility for, for shaping the public perception, but like it certainly they have shaped it and I think they continue to shape it. Even with movies that are coming out today.

B (33:24)

Do you see security professionals today who maybe lean into some of these types of narratives when they're communicating with non technical audiences? Maybe for better or for worse, all.

A (33:37)

Of us have relationships with these movies. I think that's what is so great about it. It, you know, brings us together. Whether you're, you know, an engineer or you know, a CEO or a cfo like you, you have seen these movies, you know, you've, you've experienced, you know, what they are. And I think to give Hollywood credit about anything, they really did a good job of like simplifying really complex things about cybersecurity. And I think like it provides this common ground for technical and non technical audiences. I probably am more of a non technical audience member. So like if I'm on a board and somebody was talking to me about, well this is why I'm non technical, but like, let's say, you know, like mainframe vulnerabilities. Okay. And you know, identity security, you know, I'm, I'm more inclined to say to them like, well explain this to me. Like I'm like I'm five, you know, and, and you know, maybe that, you know, the CISO would say to me, well, imagine a scenario like the net, where our customer database is held hostage or it's erased, you know, before our quarterly earnings call. Then I'm more like, oh, my God, like, what. What do we do to protect this now? So I think, like, you know, the movies did a good job of creating that urgency and creating that common ground for us to understand, like, the dangers around it, even if it is through a melodramatic lens. I'm. I'm okay with that.

B (35:20)

A number of our guests this year have talked about using storytelling and talking to boards and in a way that it gives them a narrative where they can see, you know, the first act, the second act, the third act, or they can see the consequences. They understand the stakes that they're. They're up against, as opposed to giving you the. Here's the dashboard readout, here's the technical analysis of our, you know, our firewalls, whatever it might be, that the ciso, Very technical role might speak to the rest of the security team. And. And I think that it's important to say, like, maybe the lasting legacy of some of these films is common experience and some language, and then even be aware that this is a space that you need to be considering whether it's, you know, a young kid who's going to go into film school and write about it in the future. Right. It made an impression, or somebody who's going to sit on a board and accept the risk or fund the control that the company needs or the organization needs to put some sort of risk mitigation in place. I think that those narratives are the kind of things that can be really powerful. But as you pointed out a couple times, some of them are just crazy. And it ends up leaning into this idea of stoking fear and getting into misinformation, even. These are older films. I want to jump into some of the content or the, you know, TVs and movies and shows that are a little newer. Do you see any that are doing a better job of balancing great storytelling, but hitting on a level of realism that maybe these early films didn't hold themselves to because they're cinematic? You know, eat your popcorn, watch a movie walk out going, wow.

A (37:25)

My gut reaction is to say, not really. I. The one. The one thing I will call out, though, is Mr. Robot. You know, I think Mr. Robot really did a nice job of showing, you know, audiences what it was like and how it is now. You know, the act of cybersecurity is. Is still to this day. And I don't want to get into, you know, an agentic AI conversation on this particular pod. But, you know, it is still largely a person staring at a screen. I'm not positive that's inherently cinematic. So, you know, writers falling back on those tropes of frantic typing and these, like, magical progress bars and the visual metaphors that still exists today. I think, you know, maybe one other example would be Leave the World Behind. It's not. It's not about hacking. It's not really about cybersecurity. It was about, you know, I guess it was about cyber security because it was a. A hack. But, you know, they didn't show it per se. They showed the consequences of it. They showed the aftermath of it, you know, and. And that social trust can erode. But I think, you know, if. If. If there is one that I'd say, yeah, pretty good job, it. It. It'd be Mr. Robot.

B (38:57)

Ben. We're coming to the end here, but I want to get. I want to get Ben's recommendation on your favorite most ridiculous but entertaining scenes that you think maybe provoke a great conversation or reaction from the audience independent of whether they're possible or ever had been possible.

A (39:22)

Yeah, I think that. I mean, there's a lot, you know, it's. Where do we begin? Type of thing to maybe give people some spoilers. The movies that we have coming out for future control, all delusion. We got sneakers coming up. We have disclosure. We have Leave the World Behind. We're going to do Zero Day. The one that sticks out for me the most is Swordfish. Halle Berry, Hugh Jackman, John Travolta. It might be the most delusional one I've seen yet. You know, we've got. We went from guessing a password with Matthew Broderick to Hugh Jackman writing this, like, complex worm. And, like, I don't want to get into, like, you know, he's got a gun to his head and other things are going on. And he's like, you got 60 seconds to write this worm or I'm gonna kill you. And, you know, he does it. He does. He does this thing. And. And pretty much everyone who's, you know, who's seen this movie and is an expert in this is, like, not only would this take longer than 60 seconds, it would take weeks, if not months. And this is, like, with a team of people, right? So I think, like, Swordfish was, to me, like, the moment that they said, we're gonna make this sexy, and we don't care about, like, any sort of logic or realism at all. Like, we're just gonna Go for it. And I know people saw that movie for a bunch of different reasons, but I think, like, that one scene, if you want to. If you want to look it up on YouTube, it's spectacular. Or wait until December when we're releasing the Swordfish. Control Alt Illusion.

B (41:14)

Yeah, I wasn't working in security at the time. And even an uninformed Dave Moulton, at that moment of seeing that movie in that scene, I was just like, no, that's ridiculous.

A (41:26)

No, I mean, yeah, it is, it is, it is. Like, I think people knew that and people were like, you know, the net did. Like, is this possible? You know, War Games, Is that possible? And everyone is like, this is not. This is crazy.

B (41:39)

Well, Ben, I know you've got the series out there. I want to ask where listeners can find you out on your socials and tell them where they can go read Control Alt Delusion and then I'll make sure that we've got that in our show. Notes.

A (41:54)

Yeah, Control Alt Delusion is up on palotonnetworks.com perspectives. You can find all the articles there. We got three right now. Like I said, we're going to do the next one coming out is Sneakers Memory of Robert Redford. You can find me on LinkedIn en hascamp. Hit me up there. Let me know if there's a movie that I'm missing or that you should recommend to me. But yeah, you can find me there and check it all out.

B (42:25)

Ben, maybe after you take down the Hollywood greats, it's off to Bollywood and to see what great international films touch on this topic.

A (42:36)

Well, we'll have to, because this well will run dry at some point. So, yeah, we'll have to tap into other things. You know, the Matrix is still on our radar, but we'll definitely have to start taking some liberties at some point to keep the series going.

B (42:52)

Well, thanks for an awesome conversation and a little bit of a divergence from our usual topics today. A little lighter, a little bit different level of fun, talking about how hacker movies have distorted and sometimes foreshadowed cyber security.

A (43:09)

Now, this was a pleasure, man. Thanks for having me. Appreciate it.

B (43:26)

That's it for today. If you like what you heard, please subscribe wherever you listen and leave us a review out on Apple Podcasts or Spotify. Those reviews and your feedback really do help me understand what you want to hear about. You can contact me directly about the show. Just shoot me an email@threatvectoraloalto networks.com I want to thank our executive producer, Mike Heller, our content and production teams, which include Kenny Miller, Joe Benecourt and Virginia Tranquil. Original music and mix by Elliot Peltzman. We'll be back next week. Until then, stay secure, stay vigilant. Goodbye for now.

A (44:20)

Sa.