Family Feud | Chapter 3

Summary

Podcast Summary: THREE Season 2: Murder in Vacationland Episode: Family Feud | Chapter 3
Release Date: March 20, 2025
Host: Amanda Knox

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Introduction

In "Family Feud | Chapter 3," Amanda Knox delves deeper into the haunting case of Dana Ireland's murder, exploring the tangled relationships and conflicting testimonies that have long shrouded this tragic event. This episode focuses on the Schweitzer brothers—Ian and Sean—and their alleged connection to the crime, alongside the controversial confession of Frank Pauline.

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Meeting Ian and Sean Schweitzer

Amanda Knox begins the episode by recounting her visit to Fern Forest on the Big Island of Hawai‘i, where she reconnects with Ian Schweitzer shortly after his exoneration. Accompanied by his brother Sean, Ian presents a composed demeanor, eager to rebuild his life after years of wrongful conviction.

Ian Schweitzer (03:33): "We grew up in Pahoa, a very small town back then, and our dad moved us out to the country to avoid the changes he saw coming in Oahu."

Sean, initially reserved, gradually warms up, revealing the brothers' close-knit relationship and their desire to distance themselves from past conflicts.

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Background: The Ireland, Schweitzer, and Pauline Families

The episode provides a detailed backdrop of the three families intertwined in Dana Ireland's case:

• The Ireland Family: Dana Ireland's tragic murder remains the central mystery, with her family devastated by the loss and ongoing search for justice.

• The Schweitzer Family: Ian and Sean Schweitzer were wrongfully convicted for Dana's murder, with their father Jerry Schweitzer portrayed as a respected neighborhood figure.

• The Pauline Family: Frank Pauline emerges as a pivotal figure, whose conflicting testimonies have cast doubt on the Schweitzers' guilt.

Amanda highlights the strained relationships, particularly between the Schweitzers and the Gonsalves, a family known for their involvement in drug activities.

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Frank Pauline's Confession

A significant turn in the investigation comes from Frank Pauline, who claims to have witnessed the murder. Frank's confession introduces new dynamics and raises questions about the Schweitzers' involvement.

Frank Pauline (09:06): "They looked possessed. Didn't look good at all, man. I would say the way she looked to me at that point was like she was dead already."

Frank describes how Ian and Sean allegedly assaulted Dana Ireland, detailing the use of a purple VW Beetle in the crime. However, inconsistencies begin to surface regarding the ownership and timeline of the vehicle.

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Police Investigation and Conflicting Evidence

Detectives confront the Schweitzers with Frank's account, yet discrepancies emerge:

• Vehicle Ownership: Ian and Sean claim they did not own the purple VW Beetle until 1992, whereas Frank's testimony places them using it in December 1991.

• Forensic Evidence: Blood traces and DNA connections to Dana Ireland are absent in the VW Beetle, undermining Frank's narrative.

Amanda draws parallels to her personal experience, emphasizing how confirmation bias can derail investigations:

Amanda Knox (22:21): "That’s just what detectives did with Ian and Sean Schweitzer. They felt they were close to a big break, and it blinded them."

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Analysis by Experts: Ken Lawson's Insights

Ken Lawson, co-director of the Hawaii Innocence Project, provides expert analysis, highlighting the questionable reliability of Frank's confession given his history of dishonesty.

Ken Lawson (07:01): "One of the reasons why the Schweitzers became targets is because the Schweitzer family lived near the Pauline family."

Lawson underscores the possibility that Frank's allegations may have been influenced by familial tensions and ulterior motives, especially considering the Gonsalves' legal troubles at the time.

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The Gonsalves' Involvement and Motives

The Gonsalves family's strained relationship with the Schweitzers is explored, revealing potential motives for Frank's false accusations. The Gonsalves faced severe legal consequences for their involvement in a major cocaine conspiracy, possibly driving John Gonzalez to manipulate legal outcomes to protect his family.

Ken Lawson (30:37): "The war between the Schweitzer family and the Pauline Gonsalves family is now on display for the public to see."

As the Gonsalves secured plea bargains, suspicions arise that Frank's confession was a strategic move to divert attention from the true culprits involved in the drug conspiracy.

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Forensic Evidence and Its Implications

Detectives employ forensic odontologist Dr. Norman Sperber to analyze bite marks, but results do not support the Schweitzers' involvement. The lack of DNA evidence further weakens the case against Ian and Sean, suggesting that the initial convictions were based on flawed or coerced testimonies.

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Frank Pauline's Shifting Testimonies

Frank's story becomes increasingly inconsistent, introducing new suspects and altering key details:

Frank Pauline (25:21): "They wouldn't let me leave, you know me. It was either I stay in the car and leave or I jump out of the car and die."

As Frank brings forth new names, including Wayne Gonzales, doubts about his credibility escalate. His motives for coming forward appear questionable, raising concerns about potential manipulation by other parties.

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Current Status and Unresolved Questions

Despite Frank's confession, substantial evidence exonerates the Schweitzer brothers. However, the case remains mired in controversy due to lingering rumors and the complex interplay of familial vendettas. Investigators grapple with distinguishing truth from deception amidst the island's tightly-knit community.

Sean Schweitzer (28:22): "I do not understand, though, if everything that these guys say that this guy said is true, why they haven't got these SOBs off the street."

The episode concludes with unresolved tensions and a tantalizing promise of further revelations in the next chapter, leaving listeners eager to uncover more about the true circumstances surrounding Dana Ireland's untimely death.

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Teaser for Chapter 4

Amanda Knox hints at deeper conspiracies and the potential for new evidence to emerge in the upcoming episode, urging listeners to continue following the intricate unraveling of Dana Ireland's murder case.

Amanda Knox (34:00): "That's in chapter four, which you can listen to next week."

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Notable Quotes

• Ian Schweitzer (03:33): "We grew up in Pahoa, a very small town back then, and our dad moved us out to the country to avoid the changes he saw coming in Oahu."

• Frank Pauline (09:06): "They looked possessed. Didn't look good at all, man. I would say the way she looked to me at that point was like she was dead already."

• Amanda Knox (22:21): "That’s just what detectives did with Ian and Sean Schweitzer. They felt they were close to a big break, and it blinded them."

• Ken Lawson (07:01): "One of the reasons why the Schweitzers became targets is because the Schweitzer family lived near the Pauline family."

• Sean Schweitzer (28:22): "I do not understand, though, if everything that these guys say that this guy said is true, why they haven't got these SOBs off the street."

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Conclusion

"Family Feud | Chapter 3" masterfully navigates the complexities of Dana Ireland's murder case, highlighting the human elements of wrongful accusations, familial conflicts, and the relentless pursuit of truth. Amanda Knox's insightful narration, coupled with expert commentary and firsthand accounts, paints a compelling portrait of a community grappling with unresolved grief and the quest for justice.

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Transcript

[Delia D'Ambra]

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[Amanda Knox]

I arrived in Hawaii the day Ian Schweitzer was released from prison. I remember the first time I met other exonerees through the Innocence Network and it changed my life. I suddenly realized I wasn't alone in going through an extraordinary injustice. These were people that I didn't have to explain myself to. So when I heard that Ian was being exonerated, I was thrilled to pay that energy forward by welcoming him into freedom and into our community of wrongly convicted brothers and sisters. But it takes time to adjust. It took me years to wrap my mind around everything that happened to me, and so it wasn't until July of 2023 that our team went back to the Big island and to Fern Forest, a small community of a thousand or so about 45 minutes south of Hilo, to talk in depth with Ian and his brother Sean. The drive from Hilo to Fern Forest is full of tall greenery. The houses are set back off the road, each with a privacy gate or no Trespassing sign. Occasionally we spot one of the residents on foot on the road, and they offer up a friendly wave or smile back at us. When we pull up to Sean Schweitzer's house, the gate is open and the yard has a scattering of cars and trucks. Ian Schweitzer is standing Outside, waiting to greet our team. At 52, he has short graying hair, but he looks like he's in the best shape of his life. He says he is often up at the crack of dawn to work out. Ian's a soft spoken kind of guy, his voice warm and welcoming. Next to Ian is his younger brother, Sean. He's taller than Ian, with a goatee and long hair tied back. He's initially a little closed off. His arms are crossed at first and he's quiet, but he eventually warms up and is every bit as kind and welcoming as Ian is.

[Ian Schweitzer]

This is actually kind of far from where we grew up. We actually grew up in Pahoa, so it's a little warmer climate more down the hill. Yeah, small town. Very, very small town back then, huh? Yeah, late 70s, we moved over here. Yeah, I guess my dad felt he could see what was kind of coming in Oahu and he didn't like it, so he moved us out to the country.

[Sean Schweitzer]

Yeah, they pretty much retired early too. Kind of like on semi retirement when they were young.

[Ian Schweitzer]

So, yeah, less. Less stress, less bills.

[Amanda Knox]

During our visit with Ian and Sean, we asked them every question under the sun, trying to understand how they became involved in one of the most notorious murders in Hawaii history.

[Ian Schweitzer]

So where our parents live, so is this side of the street the street. Timmy Gonzalez lived right here. Dealing drugs. Raging fights. Two, three o'clock in the morning, burning out, pounding his sounds, midnight. So he lived right across the street from our parents. He had nice shed, I guess, because he sold drugs. But you know, back then I never know if he was selling drugs or not. I just knew. I was like, oh, wow, this guy. Some nice freaking cars. That's about the extent that I knew John Gonzales. And then like Frank Pauline, the only extent I knew is that he was always fighting with people and getting kicked out of school.

[Sean Schweitzer]

I never even seen that guy around.

[Ian Schweitzer]

Well, I seen him around, but he's a fucking punk.

[Sean Schweitzer]

Yeah, I never, I never knew him.

[Ian Schweitzer]

Like on Punk, like, you know, the worst punk you can think of. And this guy is worse. There's no talking to somebody like that. You know what I mean? He's fucking ignorant.

[Amanda Knox]

But the biggest question was, if Ian and Sean had nothing to do with Dana Ireland's murder, why did Frank Pauline say they did? I'm Amanda Knox and this is three chapter three Family Feud. In June of 1991, about six months before Dana Ireland was murdered, Ian and Sean's mother, Linda Schweitzer, actually filed a police report against one of the gonzalves boys. Timmy claiming he was threatening to fight the Schweitzer family and was throwing rocks at the Schweitzer home. That's about as far as any type of interaction between the families went. While Linda Schweitzer worked for the prosecutor's office. And Jerry Schweitzer, their father, was your quintessential neighborhood dad. The Gonsolves were known throughout the area to be notorious for selling and using drugs. Fast forward almost three years after Linda Schweitzer filed her report against drugs. Timmy. John Gonzalez calls the Hawaii Police Department and says his half brother Frank Pauline told him information about Dana Ireland's case that the Schweitzer brothers killed her.

[Ken Lawson]

So if you go back and look, you know, Ian's parents. One of the reasons why the Schweitzers became targets is because the Schweitzer family lived near the Pauline family.

[Amanda Knox]

That's Ken Lawson, current co director of the Hawaii Innocence Project, a member of the legal team representing the Schweitzer brothers.

[Ken Lawson]

And so they didn't like him. Now, at some point, the Gonzalez and Pauline's half brother and mother, they all got in trouble for cocaine. Federal case. So John Gonzalez calls, you know, talks to Frank while Frank is in prison on another sex crime. In jail, I mean, not prison. I said, hey, I got an idea, man.

[Amanda Knox]

Sound a little sketch. In June of 1994, more than two weeks after his first conversation with the Hawaii Police Department, Frank sits down again with Detective Guillermo and his team. And this time, he's had a minute to think about his answers, but still admits a lot of the details are not 100% concrete. Nonetheless, Frank says that on December 24, 1991, he was picked up by the Schweitzer brothers in a purple VW Beetle once owned by his cousin Timmy Gonzalez. Ian drove his brother Sean rode shotgun, and Frank sat in the back. In this interview, Frank says that after the Schweitzer brothers picked him up, they stopped six or seven times to smoke crack cocaine. And while they were driving around, they spotted a woman walking her bike along the road. According to Frank, Ian turned the car around after passing the woman and accelerated right towards her, making contact. He says he then watched the brothers load the woman into the trunk of the VW and that he refused to help them, but rode along as they took her to an unknown dirt road towards the ocean, where he watched Ian sexually assault her.

[Frank Pauline]

Then they did what they did in front of me, you know what I mean? They looked possessed. Didn't look good at all, man. I would say the way she looked to me at that point was like she was dead already. I was sick, I was sleeping. I wanted to go try to play the hero, but I knew I had no chance against them and not in my state how I was.

[Amanda Knox]

Knowing they could be identified. Frank claims Ian decided he needed to get rid of her. So Frank says he saw him grab a tire iron and hit her over the head with it. But then he's not sure what happened. He doesn't remember if the brothers put the woman back in the trunk or if they just left her there. But he knows that afterwards, all three of them headed back to the Schweitzers house. Ian showered and Frank and Sean washed the purple VW Bug. Once Ian finished his shower, Frank says Ian brought a black trash bag outside so they could all put their clothes in the bag and then he threw it in the bushes in the yard before the Schweitzers dropped Frank back off at his house. And since then, Frank says the only other conversation he's had with Ian was when Ian told him at some point to keep quiet about everything or else. So what a story. And detectives think so too. Knowing Frank's reputation and history of lying, this didn't seem like the slam dunk they were looking for. But with all the detail in his story, detectives at least entertained the idea. And that same day, they have Frank take them through the route he claims he and the Schweitzers took before running into Dana.

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[Ken Lawson]

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[Amanda Knox]

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[Ken Lawson]

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[Delia D'Ambra]

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[Ian Schweitzer]

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[Delia D'Ambra]

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[Amanda Knox]

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[Delia D'Ambra]

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[Sean Schweitzer]

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[Delia D'Ambra]

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[Sean Schweitzer]

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[Ken Lawson]

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[Delia D'Ambra]

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[Sean Schweitzer]

Inspired by the shocking stories that Torah Family apart.

[Ian Schweitzer]

I don't know what's going on.

[Delia D'Ambra]

How old are you? Get a lawyer. You have no idea how those people hurt this girl.

[Sean Schweitzer]

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[Delia D'Ambra]

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[Amanda Knox]

Starting at Frank's house. Frank takes detectives through their drive that day, vaguely pointing out key spots. But he can't say exactly where they initially hit Dana while she was riding her bike. But either way, the more Frank talks, no matter how specific or general he is, the more police are feeling confident about his story. But at the same time, remember, Dana's case by now has made national news, and everyone on the island knows the details, including the locations. So this isn't exactly exclusive information. Nonetheless, detectives turn their attention to the Schweitzers and specifically to the VW Bug. They speak with the Gonsolves, who say that Ian bought the VW from their family. And while they aren't exactly sure what date, they know it's sometime in 1991.

[Ian Schweitzer]

57 baby windows.

[Sean Schweitzer]

One of my baseball coaches. He ended up with that car. They built that car.

[Ian Schweitzer]

Yeah. And his son drove it to high school.

[Sean Schweitzer]

All through high school.

[Ian Schweitzer]

All through high school. Timmy bought it from them, huh?

[Amanda Knox]

Yep.

[Ian Schweitzer]

Timmy bought it from Timmy Gonzalez.

[Sean Schweitzer]

The drug dealer at the time. Paid a lot of money for it.

[Amanda Knox]

But when Ian Schweitzer decided to buy the VW Bug, he claims it wasn't from Timmy, even though the Gonzales say he did. He says he bought it from a guy named Shannon who. Who bought it from Timmy, and Ian bought it to add to their already growing collection.

[Sean Schweitzer]

I think I started collecting when I was, like, 11.

[Ian Schweitzer]

He had a paper route when he was young. Yeah, so he, you know, he.

[Sean Schweitzer]

I was a hustler.

[Ian Schweitzer]

Yeah, he had his paper out going, and he started buying Volkswagens. Not just Volkswagens. He bought other cars, too. Volkswagens were a lot cheaper to get back then. Now they're kind of ridiculously high.

[Sean Schweitzer]

But I think we were always into cars because my parents, my dad, you know, he was, you know, very mechanically inclined, owned some auto shops and stuff. So when they moved us to the Big island, they sold their shop and then moved over here and just kind of retired.

[Ian Schweitzer]

Yeah, he used to. He used to still do cars on the side, though, like, extra cash and.

[Amanda Knox]

Yeah. So on June 26, detectives receive a search warrant and head to the Schweitzer household to check their place out. And specifically the VW Bug.

[Sean Schweitzer]

I see.

[Ian Schweitzer]

My mom called me, said, the cops are here, and they're taking your brother's Bug. I was like, what? Said, get down there. The cops are here. They want to talk to you. So I loaded up my three kids, my wife, and we went down there, and they had the Volkswagen on the car carrier loaded up, and then asked me if I wanted, I would go down there and talk to them. And I was like, okay, but what so they said, oh, you'll just talk to you down at the station.

[Amanda Knox]

When Sean first arrives at the Hawaii Police Department, accompanied by his father Jerry, he isn't 100% sure what is going on until detectives start questioning him.

[Ian Schweitzer]

If I knew who Frank Pauline was and if I heard about Dana Ireland, stuff like that, I remember seeing it on the news and that was it. I was like, oh, I never gave it a second thought. I mean, I was like, bummer.

[Amanda Knox]

Next, they asked Shawn what he was doing on disposal. December 24, 1991.

[Ian Schweitzer]

I was like, are you fucking serious? When all this first start happened, I thought, these guys gotta be fucking joking. This isn't joke. You guys gotta come to your senses at some point and figure out that it ain't us. But no, I guess not. It's if you want it, you want it, you're gonna, you're gonna push to have it.

[Amanda Knox]

Sean tells investigators that on December 24, 1991, he was at home. He says that he can't say for sure where Ian was, but he knows for a fact that he himself was home because that's where he always spends his Christmas Eves. Investigators also talk to Sean's dad, Jerry, and when they ask him about why the Gonsolves would implicate his sons, he tells them everything. We currently know that their families did not get along, and specifically John and Frank's cousins Timmy and Wayne tried to start fights with the family and broke a window at their house. When Sean's asked to take a polygraph, initially he is skeptical, not trusting the machines, but later changes his mind, offering to take the test a different day so he can get back to caring for his children.

[Ian Schweitzer]

We have the three kids already. The kids, my daughters are babies.

[Amanda Knox]

Next stop was Shawn's brother, Ian. Three days later, the Hawaii Police Department gets a hold of him while he's living in Kauai working in health care. To those who know Ian, like his sister in law, Treaty and Randy Roth from the Hawaii Innocence Project, this work suited Ian.

[Delia D'Ambra]

He's working in a hospital, cna, and I'm sure he would have been an LPN and rn, and I'm sure he couldn't have been a doctor. As smart as he could be.

[Amanda Knox]

He is.

[Ken Lawson]

Yeah, that's what he would have been.

[Amanda Knox]

I would have thought he had been working as a nurse, which once we.

[Delia D'Ambra]

Got to know him, just seemed like a perfect occupation for him.

[Amanda Knox]

And like Sean, Ian remembers hearing about the murder of this young woman in Vacationland, but didn't give it a ton of thought at the time either.

[Sean Schweitzer]

I definitely remember it, but I don't think I really thought of it, like, thought too much about it when I was working at the hospital and stuff. It's like the average person, you know, they get caught up so much in their life. You know, just work, pay bills, take your kids, this boom, boom, boom. And you don't really think too much of the judicial system or you really don't want to have time to even hear about it, you know, until it affects you or one of your family members. And then you'll learn what the system is really about. I got caught up, so caught up into the simple life. I actually lost my. My simple hustle, you know, of legitimate hustle, like, you know, extra spare job on the side and stuff, because you get comfortable.

[Amanda Knox]

Ian remembers pretty clearly where he and Sean were at on December 24, 1991.

[Sean Schweitzer]

We were in Paradise Park, Hawaiian Paradise Park. And my cousins and my uncle, who I was working for at the time, I was gonna get my own paycheck. He owed me money. And then it was Christmas. Going over there with family. We went over there, we ate. You know, he was in the house with the cousins, and I was outside drinking with my uncle. You know, I was pretty much underage, but, you know, I was drinking some beers with my uncle. Merry Christmas, you know.

[Ian Schweitzer]

Yeah.

[Sean Schweitzer]

And then we had to be home at a certain time because our niece was at home, and she was like three, I think, and she was getting going back to her mom. So we had to, you know, be there for the, you know, goodbye. They came up and pulled me out. Yeah, come got me. Took me to the police station, questioned me in Kauai. In Kauai. I was kind of tripping, you know, I was like, you know, I was in shock a little bit. A little bit blank. But I just, like. I just couldn't believe it.

[Amanda Knox]

Regardless of their whereabouts that day, the biggest mystery of all is how could Frank claim they were all in Ian's 57 VW bug that day back in 1991, when Sean and Ian claim they didn't even own it until 1992.

[Sean Schweitzer]

Don't forget, don't leave that up. We all were in this car that didn't have possession yet at the time of the crime.

[Amanda Knox]

Ian and Sean's father tells investigators that the purchase wasn't made and the title wasn't transferred until sometime in February 1992.

[Ken Lawson]

So, remember, Franken, them was telling the story years later. So they don't know exactly when Ian purchased the Volkswagen. They're assuming he had it at the time that Dana killed. Dana was killed. But he didn't. You follow what I'm saying? So Ian kept trying to say, look, I didn't purchase the Volkswagen till after Dana was. It couldn't have been one, it wasn't a Volt 2. I didn't own it.

[Amanda Knox]

That should clear everything up, right? How could police believe Frank's story if it wasn't even possible for the Schweitzer brothers to be driving the VW that day? They even had the title paperwork to back it up. On top of that, the forensic results from the car didn't show any traces of blood or connection to Dana Ireland. It's moments like this where you'd think detectives would realize they were driving down the wrong path. But tunnel vision and confirmation bias sets in. Take my case, for example. I had an alibi. There was zero trace of me found in the room where my roommate Meredith was murdered. And my boyfriend Rafaele. And I had no connection to the man whose DNA was all over the crime scene. But the investigation was biased by misinformation early on, and it led authorities to ignore these huge problems with their theory and press on regardless. That's just what detectives did with Ian and Sean Schweitzer. They felt they were close to a big break, and it blinded them. They weren't letting go.

[Delia D'Ambra]

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[Ken Lawson]

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[Amanda Knox]

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[Delia D'Ambra]

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[Ken Lawson]

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[Amanda Knox]

Thanks to Frank Pauline's confession, detectives feel they can now confidently clear their original three suspects. Roy Santos, Anthony Torres and Frank Nasario. But as far as new suspects go, they're trying to keep that close to their chest. They're continuing to dig deeper into Frank, Ian, and Sean. But despite the numerous rumors about them, now swirling around the island. Detectives aren't ready to release their findings. But Frank Pauline, he's tired of waiting. It's been about six months since his first interview with detectives and he's starting to think they may be using him. It seems like he was expecting more in return for his confession. So Frank goes to the media.

[Sean Schweitzer]

I'm Kirk Matthews and this is the News for Sunday 11th December. A possible witness has come forward in the Christmas Eve murder of Dana Ireland nearly three years ago. A former Big island resident now serving a prison sentence on Maui claims he was there when Ireland was brutally raped and left for dead. Nalani Blaisdell talked with the alleged witness, Frank Pauline by phone from the Maui Community Correctional Facility.

[Frank Pauline]

He turned and he looked, he said, oh, he went like he hit the girl and stuff. He ran over her several times. Then they both, they both went out trying to put her inside like the trunk area stuffer in there.

[Delia D'Ambra]

Next, Pauline says the brother smoked more.

[Amanda Knox]

Crack cocaine and drove to a deserted junkyard.

[Frank Pauline]

They pulled her body out, they started to have sex with a girl and the guy was biting her all over. It was a trip, it was a trip.

[Delia D'Ambra]

Pauline says he observed all this from within the car.

[Frank Pauline]

They wouldn't let me leave, you know me. It was either I stay in the car and leave or I jump out of the car and die.

[Amanda Knox]

Frank's initial jailhouse interview starts a press tour for him. Each interview offers up something new, much of which he hasn't even shared with police. 21 year old Frank Pauline Jr says his dreams of Dana Ireland and her murder on Christmas Eve of 1991 wouldn't go away.

[Frank Pauline]

Like her coming to me, she was like all bloody kind, like coming to me, telling me how, just help, let me help her. I guess she wanted to rest in peace already.

[Ken Lawson]

What was she saying?

[Amanda Knox]

Did she say anything?

[Frank Pauline]

No, she was half, half dead. Like I just was telling them, you know when you guys seek no, you guys can do this kind of stuff. Take me home. Just telling me, shut up, you better not say nothing. I couldn't stop nothing that was going on because if I would have tried, I would have end up being right next to her. I don't care about the money. As far as I concerned, they can have their money. All I like is those two guys.

[Amanda Knox]

Go in jail and they suffer money. Oh yeah. There is a $25,000 reward offered up in regards to Dana's case. And remember, Frank Pauline also has family members in jail and would love to see them released. Here's Ken Lawson.

[Ken Lawson]

Again, I mean, you know what? One thing I tell my students about criminal offenders. I mean, you have a lot of fun with some of these people, man, you never meet. They're not the same, and they're always personnel. So John's like, hey, why don't you help get the family out of trouble? Why don't you say that Ian and Sean, that you got information on the island case, that Ian and Sean killed him. You were there as a witness, and help us get everybody off the hook. Now, Gonzalez also knows at this time, John, that there's a $25,000 reward, I believe, being offered from the island family. He ain't mentioning that. I don't know what he told Pauline, but I don't think he would have told Pauline. So Frank calls the police. And so when Frank initially tells his story, they really don't jump on him because they got these other suspects out there where the evidence is pointing to. When those Suspects take the 5th and don't want to give any statements and stuff like that. When that happens, they go back to Pauline. Right. We're all dried up over here, and we're getting all these pressures to arrest somebody. What was that story Frankie was telling us a couple of weeks ago? Yeah. So now Frank is. And he wants things in exchange. Frank is just. Well, he's known as a liar.

[Amanda Knox]

Right.

[Ken Lawson]

But he's not stupid. You know, if I'm a give you a story, I want something in return. I mean, most inmates do.

[Amanda Knox]

As Frank's story is reverberating throughout Hawaii, Dana's family is devastated and angry. With the world's eyes now on them, detectives are pushing to gather just enough evidence for an arrest, but they're not moving all that quickly.

[Sean Schweitzer]

I do not understand, though, if everything that these guys say that this guy.

[Frank Pauline]

Said is true, why they haven't got these SOBs off the street, why they.

[Sean Schweitzer]

Haven'T locked the other two guys up? And it's very, very darn frustrating for.

[Frank Pauline]

Us to sit back here warning these guys out the street.

[Sean Schweitzer]

Major Richard Carter, perhaps best known for.

[Frank Pauline]

Collaring underworld figure Henry Hui.

[Sean Schweitzer]

Hui asked for the public's understanding.

[Frank Pauline]

It's just gonna take some time. Hopefully, everybody will.

[Ian Schweitzer]

Will be patient with us.

[Amanda Knox]

They spend the first half of 1995 continuing to interview anyone with information about the Pauline Consoles family and or the Schweitzers. But it's hard to distinguish the truth from island rumors at this point. Detectives have collected samples from the VW mouth swabs, hairs, and dental impressions to compare to the bite mark left on Dana's chest from all the suspects, Ian, Sean, and Frank.

[Sean Schweitzer]

I think they took like 50 hairs here, and they had my mouth spread wide open, chewed up.

[Amanda Knox]

They turn to Dr. Norman Sperber, a forensic odontologist, to compare the bite marks. We now know that bite mark evidence isn't scientifically valid. But even then, Dr. Sperber finds that none of the important impressions match the bite mark. More importantly, there aren't any matches to the DNA. Frank's story also continues to change, and theories start to swirl around Jon Benzal's initial call to the Hawaii Police Department and Frank Pauline's confession and maybe how they benefit from it. In November of 1993, about seven months before John made his phone call, John and his mother Pat, alongside his cousin Timmy and a few others, were tied to the largest cocaine conspiracy case in Big island history at the time. And the family was in real trouble. They were facing charges of conspiracy to promote a dangerous drug in the first £8.

[Sean Schweitzer]

Money, laundry, taxi, welfare fraud. The mom had same charges.

[Amanda Knox]

So people are starting to think that Frank's initial confession was designed to benefit the Gonsolves, especially when in the spring of 1995, John Gonsolves agreed to a plea bargain with a reduced sentence, probation, and 90 days in jail. Their mother's charges were dropped, too. The war between the Schweitzer family and the Pauline Gonzalves family is now on display for the public to see. Shawn spoke to the media at the time while all this was unfolding.

[Sean Schweitzer]

I have no idea. I don't even know him. You know what I mean? This is all like, sudden and really disturbing and stuff.

[Ian Schweitzer]

Yeah.

[Delia D'Ambra]

Did he have a grudge?

[Amanda Knox]

Was he out to get you?

[Ian Schweitzer]

Yeah.

[Sean Schweitzer]

Yeah.

[Delia D'Ambra]

What was that about?

[Sean Schweitzer]

Basically, they're low lives and, you know, I mean, there is low life kind of people, and they hate to see people do good.

[Amanda Knox]

And by April 1995, Frank continues to change his story. And on the 21st, he makes his fifth statement to the police. Frank calls up Detective Guillermo and now says a fourth person was involved. Frank says he saw his brother, Wayne Gonzales, sexually assault Dana Ireland. And he immediately decided to run away and didn't return until 30 minutes later. So we can't really speak to anything else that happened during that time. But of course, when investigators take Frank out the next day for another reconstruction, asking him to recount everything again. Now, with this fourth person, Wayne, involved, his version of the story keeps changing and just gets more confusing. Frank's mom, Pat, who is no longer facing any criminal charges, says that despite what Frank is saying, he didn't have anything to do with the murder. She even gives him an alibi and says Frank was home at the time of the crime. But his drug use is the reason he believes he was at the scene. When detectives talk to Wayne, he denies being a part of any of this. He thinks Frank implicated him to avoid taking the blame alone and thinks he probably just wanted company in jail. Frank is obviously a reckless dude and he hasn't thought through exactly how all his little stories wouldn't just ruin the Schweitzers lives, but his own life too. Because he may just be a pawn in an even bigger chess game.

[Sean Schweitzer]

I mean, John Gonzales is the mastermind behind it all. I mean, it's. I hope you guys can like really research and dig and find out how much deals the prosecutor gave out.

[Frank Pauline]

Okay, I gotta get some stories straight over y'all. They stayed naming the people. They was not involved. The Sweitzers had nothing to do with this. They kept asking me questions and they wanted me forgive them the names that they wanted.

[Amanda Knox]

That's in chapter four, which you can listen to next week.

[Delia D'Ambra]

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[Ken Lawson]

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[Delia D'Ambra]

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[Ken Lawson]

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