Kylie Lowe (4:55)

Like Ian, Shawn is offered a deal. But unlike Ian, for the sake of his children's well being, Sean accepted steps with Ian's support.

Sean Schweitzer (5:08)

I would have been sitting in, you know, the cell right by him if I didn't do that. That's the way I felt. Yeah. I had three babies. Yeah. Ultimate Sean decision, bottom line, you know what I mean? But for me, I wanted him to take the deal. I think it would be harder if both of us was locked up. I guarantee. I mean, I'm sure it was hard for him in his situation he was in, and it was hard for me in my situation.

Kylie Lowe (5:34)

This is an underappreciated aspect of wrongful convictions. Many innocent people plead guilty because they can see that they won't get a fair shake from the courts. They're not wrong. And you can see how Shawn's choice here to plead to something he didn't do is quite rational. Shawn's plea agreement charges him with manslaughter and kidnapping by omission, asserting he failed to prevent the events from occurring. Rather than admitting his active participation in them. But the plea deal has a contingency. Accepting the plea deal not only requires a recorded confession, but also passing a polygraph test implicating his brother in the process. I'm Amanda Knox, and this is three, chapter five, inconclusive. Okay.

Sean Schweitzer (6:54)

The date is March 23, 2010. Is 10:59am that's the public safety office on Oahu. For this interview is Shigetomi and also Sean Schweitzer. For the record, I've identified as well. My name is Sean Schweitzer. And your age shot 24. We have to plan your interview regarding the Dana island investigation. Basically, any information you have, including whatever involvement you may have in the investigation.

Kylie Lowe (7:39)

I'll ask questions as we go along.

Sean Schweitzer (7:41)

As you complete your statement so you can be here. Yeah, you know, it's shady that I had to do that, but you better have taken it. You better have taken it, I think.

Kylie Lowe (8:00)

Shawn takes the polygraph, and initially, the test detects deception. And no matter how hard he tries, Sean's confession is proving to be false. But instead of viewing these results as. As an indication of potential innocence, the prosecution decides to salvage their situation.

Sean Schweitzer (8:22)

They administer the exam to Sean. So I'm there. Guillermo is there. But Guillermo's off to the side. He's doing whatever he's doing or whatever. And the examiner comes out to me, goes, hey, Keith, your boy is testing hot. I go, what do you mean he's failing? He's not passing. So I go to Guillermo and I ask, hey, will you accept inconclusive? And Gullaro goes, yeah, I accept that. So I said, okay, great. He never passed the polygraph, and I've never said pass the polygraph. And I don't bring it to anybody's attention because, you know, they're saying that they're willing to go forward with it.

Kylie Lowe (9:10)

The consensus around Shawn's polygraph results is that they are inconclusive. A conclusion Detective Guillermo accepts with no objections until they arrive in court. And Judge Ricky May Amano presses for clear answers.

Sean Schweitzer (9:27)

Typically, what happens is when you go to court and you plead guilty, the court just wants to make sure you know what you're doing and says, you know, are you pleading, in fact, guilty because you're guilty? Yeah. And they just get through it and take the plea and it's over. But I think in this case, Judge, the judge was wanting to be pretty thorough and was asking all about these statements that are in the plea agreement as well as the plea. And I believe she was getting somewhat frustrated because Sean's not gonna Tell him, I did this, I did that. I'm guilty. You know, it was hard enough to try to get in there and fashion a plea that we could accept. And so I know the judge was getting frustrated. And that's when I think stepped up and said, oh, judge, you know, kind of like, don't worry about it. He's admitted to it. He made a statement to us. He passed a polygraph. And I think at that point, Judge Amato kind of went, okay, let's just get this thing over with, and takes the plea. Now, the other thing is that if you look at the plea agreement, I think he son pled to manslaughter and kidnapping. But if you look at it closely, it says by omission, and that I failed to take action to prevent all this from happening. He didn't say I did anything wrong. He just says, I didn't do anything. And my position has always been that there is no such charge as manslaughter by omission or kidnapping by omission. That's a bogus charge. You can't plead guilty to something that not a charge. And so that's another basis that has been raised to allow Sean to withdraw the plea is because he pled to something that doesn't exist. You can't convict someone for a crime that doesn't exist. So that was kind of like the escape valve that I'd left in there.

Kylie Lowe (11:43)

But by 2000, the case is closed. Despite no evidence pointing towards the three men in the court of law, Frank and Ian are guilty of Dana Ireland's murder and will spend the rest of their lives behind bars. The prison Shawn has to spend his time in after accepting the plea deal is a bit more invisible.

Sean Schweitzer (12:06)

The railroad just affected us in both ways. You know, the yin and the yang, where one in the cell, one in society. You know, society itself can be cruel. Hi, this is Steve Buscemi. You know, the actor. Well, now I'm an actor and podcast.

Kylie Lowe (12:28)

Host from Piece of Work Entertainment and Campside Media, in association with Olive Productions.

Sean Schweitzer (12:34)

Comes Big Time, an Apple original podcast.

Kylie Lowe (12:37)

Each episode follows the story of one misfit with big dreams who isn't afraid to bend a few rules or take a shortcut to get there.

Sean Schweitzer (12:45)

Well, who steals bees?

Kylie Lowe (12:46)

I was duped. I'll shoot you in the leg.

Sean Schweitzer (12:49)

This is big time. Follow and listen on Apple Podcasts.

Kylie Lowe (12:55)

Hataday presents.

Sean Schweitzer (12:56)

In the red corner, the undisputed, undefeated weed whacker guy, champion of hurling grass and pollen everywhere. And in the blue corner, the challenger, Extra Strength Pataday Eye drops that work all day to prevent the release of histamines that cause itchy allergy eyes. And the winner by knockout is Pataday Padaday. Bring it on.

Kylie Lowe (13:31)

With his plea deal settled, Sean focuses on caring for his twin daughters, who, unlike other kids at school, have to navigate an adult situation in a middle school setting. In one of their 8th grade assignments, their teacher chose Murder in Paradise for a book report written by a reporter from the Hawaii Tribune Herald. The book detailed Dana Ireland's murder, the ensuing investigation, and the complicated legal battle. As part of the assignment, one of the twins was asked to read the book aloud in class, putting a spotlight on the girls and their family's situation. Despite their efforts to confront the bullying, one daughter found herself suspended, especially being.

Sean Schweitzer (14:20)

The notorious Schweitzer brothers. You know what I mean? You know, off the lie. The whole book is. You got the book. The book is a lie. Everything in that book is a lie. You know, kids are harassing them, talking. So one of my daughters is a little more headstrong than the other, and she wasn't taking it. So, yeah, she got into trouble for that.

Kylie Lowe (14:48)

This is another underappreciated aspect of wrongful convictions, the ripple effect on families. While I was on trial, my own sisters were going through a similar nightmare. Being harassed in school, getting into fights to defend my honor. All the while, I was stuck in a cell, and they weren't telling me about the trauma they were going through because they didn't want to burden me further. For Shawn, there was the added element of guilt.

Sean Schweitzer (15:19)

I think it was a few years before I actually talk to him on the phone after everything was said and done. Couldn't do it. I felt like I, you know, betrayed my brother.

Kylie Lowe (15:33)

For Ian, every day in prison blurred into the next. A repetitive cycle that wore him down.

Sean Schweitzer (15:41)

Every day was different, but the same. You know, just doing time and just. And just grinding, you know, minute by minute. You know, doing time. Very mental. All mental and physical. Fast, but majority, a lot of mental.

Kylie Lowe (16:01)

The stifling sameness is one of the more mundane but maddening aspects of prison. You take for granted the variety that fills your life on the outside. Trying out that new restaurant, bumping into your old friend from school, and then you're stuck with the same food, the same walls, the same people, day in, day out. Every inmate reacts to it differently. It made me depressed, and sadness became my new emotional baseline. For Ian, it triggered feelings of anger, but he fought to not let it consume him, rather recognizing its draining influence. He did his best to keep his spirits up and navigate his new reality.

Sean Schweitzer (16:51)

I think for me, that my belief was the hand of God was going to vindicate me.

Kylie Lowe (16:57)

And it was only a matter of time before the Hawaii Innocence Project would set things into motion in a way that no one was able to before. Ken Lawson and Randy Roth, now co directors of the Hawaii Innocence Project, start by making inroads with the prosecutor's office, with their law students at the University of Hawaii at Manoa.

Sean Schweitzer (17:22)

Randy put together for our Innocence Project a group of former prosecutors who would come in and the students would present actual. And this is one of the cases the students presented. They were present actual cases, cases where we believe our client's actually innocent. They will present them to former prosecutors and get their feedback and stuff like that. And so, you know, Randy, getting us involved with prosecutors was a huge, huge step because as a criminal defense lawyer, I didn't want to. I mean, I'm like, man, you know, it's like fucking Dracula or somebody, you know what I mean? Give me a cross and some holy water.

Kylie Lowe (18:01)

Ken's next step was to present the case to the then mayor, Mitch Roth, to see if he would be willing to do a joint investigation.

Sean Schweitzer (18:10)

And the pitch was, look, you guys know that there's an unknown. We haven't matched this male DNA yet. Unknown male. So your interest is finding him. You still have a perpetrator out there, we all know that. Now you believe the perpetrator may be connected to our client. We believe the opposite. So we both have a mutual interest in finding out whose DNA this is. And then that could lead us to saying it's not. Whatever. And so that's how the joint investigation agreement started. Right.

Kylie Lowe (18:40)

Ken Lawson and Randy Roth assemble the Marvel Avengers of Defense teams for it's not just them and their students, but they call in the help of Barry Scheck, co founder of the Innocence Project in New York, and Susan Friedman, the staff attorney for the Innocence Project with a focus in post conviction DNA cases. But even with this kind of legal lineup, exonerating someone and proving innocence is an uphill battle. Here's Jennifer Brown, current associate director of the Hawaii Innocence Project. Yeah, so once we have the DNA, and we had already.

Sean Schweitzer (19:23)

So we had a transition with prosecutors.

Kylie Lowe (19:25)

So Mitch Roth became the mayor.

Sean Schweitzer (19:27)

He was the former prosecutor. So we had, had started that cooperation agreement with Mitch.

Kylie Lowe (19:33)

We were getting some cooperation, but it wasn't moving quickly enough. And then we started saying, you know.

Sean Schweitzer (19:38)

Like, let's, let's get this moving along.

Kylie Lowe (19:42)

The process is full of hurdles with a limited Timeline and number of chances to argue innocence post conviction appeals efforts are constrained by strict rules. Only issues raised during the trial can be addressed. No new evidence or witnesses can be introduced. But the game changer comes with new evidence. Stuff like new witnesses, new documents, or new scientific evidence like DNA testing that wasn't known or available at the time of trial. The goal isn't just to prove innocence, but also to identify the real perpetrator.

Sean Schweitzer (20:23)

And keep in mind too, back in the late 90s, early 2000s, victims of crimes were getting more and more power to express their opinions on plea bargains. So it used to be, you know, when I first started practicing, most states didn't ignore victims. But a lot of prosecutors would ignore just here. You would have to get the approval of the Ireland family to say, I'm gonna give this man probation. Is that okay with you? Now, if I'm Mr. Ireland, if he's gonna confess, I want the guy whose DNA this is. So if he wants freedom, if he didn't wanna spend one hour in prison for a murder and a rape of my daughter, I would go along with that plea. But I wanna know whose DNA was left on that gurney that my daughter's birthday. I want to know whose DNA was in her panty that was laying out there bloody or ain't no deal.

Kylie Lowe (21:15)

Back in 2008, the Department of Justice launched a program that allowed DNA samples to be tested using newer methods. It was then that the attorneys for the Hawaii Innocence Project leveraged that statute to request DNA retesting under seal. Due to the high profile nature of the case, keeping testing secret avoided drawing attention while other evidence was explored, all in the hopes of finding the real perpetrator. DNA testing since 2008 has substantially changed the Jimmy Z T shirt found next to Dana Ireland. One key piece of evidence could never fully be reviewed because forensic technology was unable to set separate other DNA. Since the shirt was substantially soaked in Dana's blood, the prosecution argued the T shirt belonged to Frank Pauline, supported by multiple witness testimonies claiming to have seen him wearing it at the same time. It was a popular surf shirt like Billabong, and a lot of islanders had one. Regardless, this had stuck with the jury at Frank's trial. It was his shirt, they thought, and Dana's blood. So he must have done it.

Sean Schweitzer (22:35)

Well, yeah, I think when you work on these cases, people can be convicted quickly in our system. And then it's just so hard to unchange the wrongful conviction. I mean, you see it all the time with cases going to the Supreme Court on people on death row and stuff like that and still losing. And so I think when we finally got the DNA evidence in, when DNA finally reached a point to where they could separate the blood on the Jimmy Z T shirt and also determine sweat DNA, wearer DNA that didn't exist back when this trial started, and all of that showed that Frank Pauline did not wear that shirt at all. And neither did the other two defendants. No DNA whatsoever gave us hope.

Kylie Lowe (23:22)

Here's Randy Roth of the Hawaii Innocence Project. Yeah, the Dana Ireland murder was horrendous. And what I remember there was just.

Sean Schweitzer (23:33)

So much news coverage as one would.

Kylie Lowe (23:36)

Expect, certainly appropriate over a long period.

Sean Schweitzer (23:40)

Of time because it took them a.

Kylie Lowe (23:42)

While to zero in on the people.

Sean Schweitzer (23:45)

That they said had done it.

Kylie Lowe (23:48)

I thought I was keeping up with it, but I very much got the.

Sean Schweitzer (23:52)

Impression that people that they had said did it, including Ian Schweitzer, the mental.

Kylie Lowe (24:00)

Impression that I formed from the news coverage was that these are some troublemakers. For whatever reason, I've always probably thought more highly of police and prosecutors than the average person.

Sean Schweitzer (24:18)

I've kiddingly told students that I think half of my students were wired to be prosecutors.

Kylie Lowe (24:23)

And I think as much as what the reporters were reporting and their spin on all of this, I was, I.

Sean Schweitzer (24:32)

Think, shame on me, ready to believe the worst. Because why would the police lie?

Kylie Lowe (24:39)

Why would the prosecutors lie? And even if they weren't lying, why.

Sean Schweitzer (24:43)

Would they be so badly mistaken if.

Kylie Lowe (24:45)

They deal in this world every single day? I can't tell you how common and frustrating this attitude is as a wrongly convicted person. But it's human nature to believe that where there's smoke, there's fire. The problem is in wrongful conviction cases, it's all smoke and no fire. But the more pressure there is from the media and the public to hold someone accountable, the more smoke there is. Join me, Dr. Panico with Cyndi Lauper.

Sean Schweitzer (25:25)

And chef Michelle Bernstein to talk about.

Kylie Lowe (25:27)

Plaque psoriasis and psoriatic arthritis. The potential connection and risk of developing permanent joint damage.

Sean Schweitzer (25:35)

Cosentix Secukinumab is prescribed for adults with.

Kylie Lowe (25:38)

Moderate to severe plaque psoriasis. 300 mg dose. And adults with active psoriatic arthritis. 150 mg dose. Don't use if you're allergic to Cosentyx.

Sean Schweitzer (25:47)

Before starting, get checked for tuberculosis.

Kylie Lowe (25:49)

An increased risk of infections and lowered.

Sean Schweitzer (25:51)

Ability to fight them may occur like.

Kylie Lowe (25:53)

Tuberculosis or other serious bacterial, fungal or viral infections.

Sean Schweitzer (25:57)

Some are fatal.

Kylie Lowe (25:58)

Tell your doctor if you have an.

Sean Schweitzer (25:59)

Infection or Symptoms like fevers, sweats, chills, muscle aches or cough had a vaccine or planned to, or if inflammatory bowel.

Kylie Lowe (26:06)

Disease symptoms develop or worsen, serious allergic.

Sean Schweitzer (26:08)

Reactions and severe eczema like skin reactions may occur. Learn more at 1-844-cosentyx or cosentyx.com Cindy in the mood for something crunchy, saucy, and boneless? Try Jack's new crispy boneless wings from Jack in a Box.

Kylie Lowe (26:28)

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Sean Schweitzer (26:30)

Get them with honey, garlic, sriracha, or smoke show smoky barbecue sauce. Enjoy so much more.

Kylie Lowe (26:43)

In April of 2015, the Hawaii Innocence Project publicly announced their investigation into Ian's case. And that sent it moving forward like a freight train. Well, in the legal world, that is, in the normal human world, their investigation would take years. They spent hours and hours poring over the case file, reexamining evidence, questioning witnesses, and visiting the scene, which had changed a lot since 1991. Directly west of Vacationland is Kilauea, one of the world's most active volcanoes. Only 40 miles away by car and even less as the crow flies. The legendary active volcano is not far from the Schweitzer house and just a short hop to Hawaii Volcanoes National Park. I was actually visiting that park, watching the volcano erupt when I got the news that Ian was being released from prison.

Sean Schweitzer (27:44)

It's five miles up the road now.

Kylie Lowe (27:47)

Didn't something happen? It flows down, though.

Sean Schweitzer (27:51)

It doesn't flow this way. It's gonna have to, like, go uphill and then come down to us together. Yeah, we're on the good side. Yeah, we always were on the good side.

Kylie Lowe (28:01)

The eruption in 2023 was minor, all things considered. In 2018, it caused chaos. This was a problem for Ken Randy and the Hawaii Innocence Project. Most places in the US Crime scenes don't just vanish overnight.

Sean Schweitzer (28:22)

Yeah, because it actually went under, and then it popped up in Leilani Estates, and it started letting out on these fissures and just popping up, and it just. Right in your backyard front yard. It took out, like, half of the community over there, like, the lower half. So, like, if you go through Leilani, you hit, like, the end of the road already, and it's all lava. Both crime scenes. Right. Is gone. That whole vacation land, everything.

Kylie Lowe (28:55)

By 2015, Ian has been in prison for about 15 years. But with the muscle he has on his defense team now, he is staying hopeful while his team works on a joint stipulation document that they will spend the next few years refining. And it's really just a Document where all parties in this case, Ian's defense team and the then mayor, Mitch Roth, agree on what they call, quote, undisputed facts. And it serves as a legal shortcut where both sides agree on certain facts relevant to the case so they can just focus on what they disagree on. And as we've seen so far, there are quite a few disagreements, especially when it comes to the DNA. So the joint investigative teams hire a neutral DNA expert by the name of Lisa Calandro to help perform new testing on two the vaginal swabs collected from Dana's body and the hospital gurney sheet where semen was detected. It would take three years after entering into the joint investigation for the new DNA results to come in. And when they do, everyone is shocked. None of the DNA matches Frank, Pauline Jr, Ian Schweitzer or Sean Schweitzer. That's great news. And even better, there's a lead for all the samples are consistent with with each other in revealing a single DNA profile. This profile is labeled Unknown Male Number One. Finally, in January of 2022, the Hawaii County Prosecutor's Office, together with the Hawaii Innocence Project and New York Innocence Project, file their joint stipulated facts, claiming their reinvestigation has led to the discovery of new evidence that was not presented to the jury in Ian's 2000 trial. But it still takes months until October 2022 for Sean Schweitzer and his attorney, Keith Shigetomi, to meet with Hawaii county prosecuting attorneys Shannon Kagawa and Kevin Hashizaki to discuss the polygraph test he took as part of his plea agreement. During this meeting, Shawn recants his prior confession in full. And despite how unreliable the polygraph is, law enforcement still relies on it. So naturally, they decide to give Shawn another. And there is zero detection of deception. So the defense team is ready and armed with their new strategy, using a wealth of evidence to prove the existence of this elusive figure. Unknown male number one. Of course, Ian is aware of all that is going on. But as you heard in chapter one, what came next was a surprise to everyone. In January 2023, nearly 23 years after serving time in Arizona, Ian is flown back to Hawaii.

Sean Schweitzer (32:12)

The next question was, are we gonna get a judge that's gonna listen? Because there's still a lot of people here who believe, you know, that Ian and the two other defendants are guilty. And that comes from being so, for lack of a better word, brainwashed, you know, during, you know, all the years up to the trial and stuff like that, that these guys are thugs.

Kylie Lowe (32:34)

And Ian's Family and his entire legal team, including Jennifer Brown, are anxious for their day in court.

Sean Schweitzer (32:43)

Oh, I didn't sleep the night before. You know, it was. You can't sleep because you're excited. You can't sleep because you're a little nervous. Can't sleep because you're not. Not really sure.

Kylie Lowe (32:54)

Like, we were pretty sure that we believed that the judge was going to.

Sean Schweitzer (32:58)

Vacate and release him that day, but there was still a possibility that he might have to go back and get processed.

Kylie Lowe (33:04)

There's all these different things. So walking into the courthouse, because I talked to Linda before, and I was like, how many seats do you think.

Sean Schweitzer (33:13)

You might need, you know, with family? And she's. At first she was like, not gonna invite any family.

Kylie Lowe (33:17)

And I was like, I think she was so afraid to have that hope.

Sean Schweitzer (33:22)

And she had had the hope for so long, and, like, you know, another year goes by, and another year goes by. And so I said, linda, make the calls. Get some family. They're gonna want to be there for this. I'm not crying. And so she's like, okay. Made a few phone calls, and she's like, I think I need two rows.

Kylie Lowe (33:43)

So we made sure she had plenty of space.

Sean Schweitzer (33:47)

And walking in, I saw so many of his family.

Kylie Lowe (33:53)

And everybody was so.

Sean Schweitzer (33:55)

Happy, but also so nervous.

Kylie Lowe (33:57)

You know, you also have to remember that nobody had seen Ian in years. During Ian's January 2023 hearing, his legal team invites experts to testify and walk the judge through all the forensic evidence used to convict the three men, starting with the DNA evidence recovered from the hospital bedsheet and from the armpit of. Of the Jimmy Z T shirt, which excluded Ian Schweitzer, Shawn Schweitzer, and Frank Pauline junior. This DNA was consistent with samples taken from the vaginal swabs and from Dana's underwear, all of which pointed to a single person identified as unknown male number one.

Sean Schweitzer (34:46)

You don't know who the unknown male is. And then think about the people that are actually innocent who. Who have no DNA evidence left in their case. It's either been destroyed or it's never taken, and they never get out. You know, Ian and others like him have been blessed enough to say, you know what? The Jimmy Z. T shirt was still available to be tested.

Kylie Lowe (35:04)

The investigation had pinned Ian's 1957 Volkswagen Beetle as the vehicle that hit Dana Ireland. But the tire tracks from the bike accident scene and the Waawa trail revealed inconceivable inconsistencies in the tread patterns. They didn't match the VW the experts go on to debunk the treadmarks. Using the manufacturer's specs of the 1953 model. They point out significant differences in the Beetle's tread width, track width, and the wheelbase measurements compared to what police recorded at the scenes. They were closer to the markings of a small pickup truck. The VW Beetle would have to have been a highly modified stretch version of the model that Ian had driven.

Sean Schweitzer (35:51)

I got on the case in 2010 and been with it ever since. So just you've been waiting on this day. You know, you're just hoping that, you know, there's no surprises, nothing goes wrong. And we happen to have a very, very good judge who also understood a lot of different things. Like, he really understood the tire tread evidence. I guess he tinkers with cars and stuff like that. So, I mean, it was just clear to him that there's no way this could have been a Volkswagen.

Kylie Lowe (36:20)

Next is the bite mark evidence. A forensic odontology expert looks into the bite marks and explains during the hearing how teeth and skin change over time, making it difficult to link bite marks to individuals. The expert also criticizes the original doctor's conclusion and believes that the marks were not, in fact, bite marks at all.

Sean Schweitzer (36:45)

Because what people think, what they see on CSI is like, you know, yeah, they can do it, right? Put it through the fingerprint computer, right, and come back, you know what I mean? Or, you know, do all kind of crazy tests, and it's like, okay, it's this guy. And it's just. They really don't understand the level of junk science. The only true science is DNA. The only true science is DNA. The rest of this stuff, bite mark evidence, is just crazy, crazy, but people believe it.

Kylie Lowe (37:11)

Ultimately, Ian, Sean, and Frank are conclusively excluded as contributors to the DNA evidence. The use of the VW in the murder is debunked, and the bite mark analysis is dismissed as junk science. Each piece of the puzzle the defense presents points to one one conclusion. A single culprit who remains unidentified. In other words, three innocent men were convicted of crimes they did not commit while the real perpetrator was living out his glory days.

Sean Schweitzer (37:47)

My amazing team broke down everything and just step by step, just knocked everything out. When you're innocent, that's what happens. The truth will come out. I mean, for some people, they don't get that chance. I'm glad I got that chance Now.

Kylie Lowe (38:06)

This particular hearing is not to prove Ian's innocence, only to demonstrate that there is crucial evidence that ultimately was not presented at his initial trial. But on January 24, 2023, Ian's conviction is vacated and the charges against him are dismissed. He's formally exonerated. Now, local investigative journalist Lynn Kawano, who has spent years working on and covering this case, was in the courtroom that day and heard all of this firsthand. Yeah, and it is. It's a lot of buildup, right? It's a lot of DNA. And you know how these things are, right? The person testifies, but you have to get their background, you have to get their education, you have to know what. Why they're so good at DNA and what the system is and how it's changed over the years. So you have all this buildup, and then you have that moment where Judge Kubota orders the cuffs to be removed. And, you know, we have those moments as journalists. You know, there are. There are many different moments, and that's one of them, where everything changed. That one moment. Those words from the judge Kubota changes everything about the case, about life for this whole family. And to see Ian's face at that time, because he was.

Sean Schweitzer (39:25)

He was surprised. He.

Kylie Lowe (39:26)

You could tell he was saying, wait, can I. Can I go? Am I free? What happens now? He thought when he was pulled out of Saguaro that night, he was going to be back. He thought it was just another hearing. He had been through many before, and he was going to be back in Arizona. I don't think he really fully grasped that that was the last time he was going to be at Saguaro. That was the last time he was going to see the people he saw in prison every day. That was the last time he was going to be forced to eat a meal that he didn't want to eat, because then he came here and that night he went home. He went home after. After more than two decades in prison. That's next in chapter six, which you can listen to next week.

Sean Schweitzer (40:34)

Hi, I'm Cyndi Lauper. My scalp was covered with psoriasis, which.

Kylie Lowe (40:38)

Could lead to psoriatic arthritis.

Sean Schweitzer (40:41)

But Cosentyx treats both.

Kylie Lowe (40:44)

Cosentyx Secukinumab is prescribed for adults with moderate to severe plaque psoriasis, 300mg dose. And adults with active psoriatic arthritis, 150mg dose. Don't use if you're allergic to Cosentyx.

Sean Schweitzer (40:55)

Before starting, get checked for tuberculosis.

Kylie Lowe (40:58)

An increased risk of infections and less lowered ability to fight them may occur like tuberculosis or other serious bacterial, fungal or viral infections.

Sean Schweitzer (41:06)

Some were fatal.

Kylie Lowe (41:07)

Tell your doctor if you have an.

Sean Schweitzer (41:08)

Infection or symptoms like fevers, sweats, chills, muscle aches or cough had a vaccine or planned to or if inflammatory bowel.

Kylie Lowe (41:16)

Disease symptoms develop or worsen, serious allergic.

Sean Schweitzer (41:19)

Reactions and severe eczema like skin reactions may occur.

Kylie Lowe (41:22)

Learn more at cosentyx.com or 1844-cosent Cosentyx works for me. Ask your doctor about Cosentyx.

Sean Schweitzer (41:33)

In the mood for something crunchy, saucy and boneless? Try Jack's new Crispy Boneless Wings from Jack in the Box starting at just 5.99. Get em with honey, garlic, Sriracha or Smoke Show Smoky Barbecue Sauce. Enjoy so much more.