Shannon Kagawa (4:54)

Are the choiches going to be suspects.

Ken Lawson (4:57)

You know, for the next 30 years? I definitely hope not. But I think we do have to allow the police department the opportunity to do an investigation.

Shannon Kagawa (5:06)

I don't think anyone's saying that the.

Ken Lawson (5:08)

Police department shouldn't do the investigation. You know, be the first to admit that we want to thorough and complete investigation. But the question is, what is being investigated? At this point, we're 30 plus years out, and I think they served 25 years of their life, prime of their.

Shannon Kagawa (5:26)

Life, been taken from them.

Ken Lawson (5:27)

And here we are. At the end of the day, the Hawaii Innocence Project is committed to one thing here. Proving once and for all, beyond a reasonable doubt, that their clients, Ian and Sean Schweitzer, are innocent and that they are compensated accordingly. As for the Hawaii Police Department, well, in our conversation with Chief Moskowitz, he says the one thing they're committed to is justice. Of course. And any argument that there is some witch hunt and cover up happening is absolutely, categorically false. One of the most preposterous things that I've heard in my entire life, that the allegation that we wanted Laurel to kill himself in order to perpetuate this mistake, that the Schweitzers and Pauline acted alone. That is perhaps one of the most appalling things I've ever heard. That is one of the most baseless allegations. And it's really. I hate to use words like this because, people. It's scurrilous, right? It really is. It's. It's abjectly false. It's without evidence, and it's basically just inflammatory to attempt to prove a point that is not true. Now, I want to clarify that it does make sense for law enforcement to keep the details of an ongoing investigation private when there is the possibility that disclosing that information could either spook a suspect into fleeing or hamper their ability to gather further evidence or create a media spectacle that could impact a jury pool. But Albert Laurel Jr. Is now dead, despite every effort the Hawaii PD says they took to prevent that outcome. He can't flee the country or hide underground to avoid an arrest or conviction. So what exactly are they investigating? And if they can't provide a convincing answer to that question, it's hard not to wonder if they're just throwing out that line. Ongoing investigation to avoid sharing information that may simply make them look bad. For Ian and Shawn and their family, it's hard not to become a bit jaded. The same thing happened with my family. Can you blame them? After the police abused me, they witnessed the prosecution present baseless theories, trot out incentivized informants, and junk science, all while the sole and actual killer was already in custody. And while the incompetence of law enforcement can make you frustrated at the system, the signs of corruption and misconduct make you scream in your head. My own prosecutor was actually on trial for abuse of office in a separate case while he was prosecuting me. And it later emerged that the real killer had been mysteriously released from police custody just five days before he murdered my roommate, leading many to speculate that he was actually a criminal informant. As crazy as that all sounds, it's unfortunately not rare, as Ian and Sean and Sean's wife Treaty can tell you.

Ian Schweitzer (8:38)

The intentional with the Volkswagen, the malicious, like, so dirty, like, they knew it wasn't the car. The detectives, they knew it, like, based on the length, width, tire tread of the vehicle, but they were willing to go along with Charlene Igboshi and Lincoln Ashida's fake big lie story to get John Gonzalez the deal, the immunity. I don't know why it was so important to forgive this guy immunity, you know what I mean? Instead of just not coming after us after the DNA didn't match. And go find whose DNA it is before you come after anybody, you Know.

Sean Schweitzer (9:25)

The justice system, besides ruining our, you know, our name. They didn't do any justice for Dana. Like the cops failed her, detectives failed her, ambulance failed her, the freaking prosecution failed her. Like we're fake nothing, you know, nothing for, like try to figure out who did this to her. They had no concern. All of their concern was just putting somebody away before the statute of limitation. That's it. That's all they cared about. They didn't care about finding the. The true guy. And he was probably still in her community. The justice system just was like, they just failed at their job. The cops didn't do their job well because they didn't do good detective work. So they failed her even getting a good case. So they had to make up a case. And then the, the prosecution and whatever they felt because they knew what they were looking at, they did a messy job. They didn't take care of all, you know, what they needed to find the person legitimately.

Ken Lawson (10:16)

And there were other leads.

Sean Schweitzer (10:18)

There had many other leads, other leads that they did not follow up on. They did not follow.

Ken Lawson (10:24)

During our team's last trip to Hawaii, Ian and Sean welcome us back to their home in Volcano. A few days after the hearing. Sean's wife Treaty greets us with a warm smile. Grandkids running between rooms. The day feels different. The delays and the lack of resounding good news that will put this all to bed finally has taken their toll on the brothers. Their mood is more somber than usual. Sean, normally the more reserved of the two brothers, is worried about finances. He carries a heavy burden supporting his growing family, including newer grandkids. And he must balance these constant court appearances with the need to have take home money each week. Ian is still steadfast. He's ready to fight. But he can't go back to work. He's not ready for that. He was a nurse on the islands before all this happened, with dreams of early retirement. He's worked since he was a little boy, always hustling. But today is about trying to get back to normal. Each new day is a blessing to Ian. A new chance at life. Ian often recalls what Judge Peter Kubota shared with him that day, that he has more of his life to live. Ian must decide if he will live with bitterness or with hope. I think about that, too, whenever I'm looking into a wrongful conviction case. Hope is complicated. It can be a source of suffering, the thing that prevents you from accepting your reality as it is. But it can also sustain you through the darkness. And it's not just the personal hope of finding peace or growing through your trauma, but hope for the truth to finally come out, for justice to be served. And truth and justice, they're for everyone, not just the Schweitzer family. Dana Ireland's family deserves the truth. So does the Pauline family. So does the whole Big island community. Justice also means that those who've caused harm or delayed the truth from coming out should be held accountable, especially when they've been empowered to protect and and serve the community. And that's something that even the Hawaii Supreme Court recognizes when they come back with their decision in October 2024. The Slayer has been activated. All the power of Hell Powering of.

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Ken Lawson (13:50)

When the Supreme Court delivers their decision, they acknowledge, quote, significant procedural missteps, end quote. But in the same breath, they also share that the Hawaii Police Department does not need to release the records to regarding Albert Laurel Jr. To the Hawaii Innocence Project. Which can sound a little like a loss here, but thankfully it's actually not. The High Court says that Ian and Sean no longer need to prove actual innocence in order to move forward with their compensation claims. They rule that a change needs to be made regarding the Schweitzer's petition. Their petition needs to be changed to a civil lawsuit and the Hawaii Supreme Court will handle the proceedings.

Steve Kramer (14:41)

A little disappointed as to the fact that we can't get the evidence we believe we're entitled to. However, you know, I found the decision to be quite helpful.

Steve Bush (14:50)

To us, they're telling not just the Swisses, but everybody else, henceforth, if you come out of prison and the judge has overturned your conviction, you can demonstrate actual innocence. Here's the process you follow. And so they really did clarify for all of us in this state, how do you go about getting compensated for serving time in prison when you're actually innocent?

Ken Lawson (15:15)

As of the time of this hearing, police say they are waiting for the results of Albert Laurel Jr. S autopsy and are still in the process of trying to interview his loved ones, including his wife, who they say hasn't spoken to them yet. Almost four months after his death. And as of today, this is where things sit with the Hawaii Innocence Project in the midst of filing their civil lawsuit against Hawaii County. This series has been about a lot of things. Justice for Dana Ireland and her family. Justice for Shawn and Ian Schweitzer and their family. And as complicated as it may be, justice for Frank Pauline and his family. Whatever you may think about Frank, it became a lot harder to carry around the name Pauline in Hawaii after Ian, Sean and Frank were wrongly convicted for the murder of Dana Ireland. And that's not just due to Frank's lies, but to the incompetence and perhaps willful blindness of law enforcement. Here's his attorney, Miles Briner.

Miles Briner (16:29)

The fact that Frank implicated the Schweitzers and still was convicted, he's still a victim of this whole process. The fact that he did these things that implicated the Schweitzers, I suspect, you know, when you're under investigation, is a possible rapist and murderer. You say a lot of things and people make promises or imply that if you help them, they'll help you and so forth. I have no doubt that Frank was trying to play all the angles possible. The sons have paid the price for the father's sins. You know, what was his sin? His sin was that he was a liar. Okay, does that mean that his. That he deserved to be murdered in prison, deserved to be incarcerated for a crime he did in commit? It's terrible for the Ireland family and for the whole community. And I'm thinking about my clients, the surviving sons of Frank, Pauline. Frank, for all intents and purposes, was murdered in New Mexico out in the wreckyard because of this case. That's what our belief is. I'm not going to go into the details of it, but our belief is that there was information that was disclosed, it became public knowledge, it shouldn't have been. And there was. There was a possibility that Frank was going to get released. And what happens very often in the prison system when someone's a lifer or has a long sentence and they're about to be released, say, by the sudden discovery of exculpatory evidence, there's retaliation by other inmates.

Ken Lawson (17:54)

The question that rings throughout every case where there is a potential wrongful conviction at the center of it is, how can something like this happen? How can authorities get it so wrong? In Ian and Sean's case, there was, fortunately, DNA, but in many cases there isn't. I know innocent people who are still rotting away in prison because there's no DNA to prove their innocence. And their convictions rest on something like a false confession. I truly believe that most wrongful convictions occur when, because police and prosecutors are human, they are subject to the same cognitive biases that afflict us all. They fall into the trap of confirmation bias, seeking out evidence that confirms their hunch and ignoring evidence that doesn't. They get tunnel vision. They fool themselves into thinking they're delivering justice when they're creating yet more injustice. Even when police and prosecutors commit willful misconduct, which is far too common, withholding exculpatory evidence, contaminating witness testimony, even planting evidence, I don't imagine they are cackling like cartoon villains. Rather, I believe they commit these acts of misconduct because they've convinced themselves that they've got the right suspect and they just need to put them away, even if that means breaking a few rules. But those rules are there for a reason. Because when they are broken, the chances of a wrongful conviction goes up immensely and the costs are widespread and devastating. It's not up to me or any of our team here to determine how these three families have suffered and how that injustice should be rectified. You have Ken Lawson and the Hawaii Innocence Project, legal avengers and committed to that. Our job here as storytellers and advocates is to make noise, educate, raise awareness, and give back. None of us should walk away from this series the same way we walked in. While you've got your earbuds in, while you fold laundry or cook dinner or drive to work as this podcast plays, know that there are tens of thousands of innocent people, perhaps more than 100,000, trapped in prison, wishing they had the opportunity to perform those daily chores. To work for an annoying boss or to see that ex lover at a party across the room. That's what I found myself missing most in prison. The birthdays, the adventures, the joy of family time during the holidays. I missed those too, obviously. But the longer I was inside, the more it was the daily stuff of a regular life, those unremarkable and even awkward moments that I began to yearn for. And it's not just those innocents locked inside, but their families on the outside whose lives get consumed, fighting to save them. As you've seen throughout the last 10 chapters, Dana Ireland's death impacted so many people. Dana's parents, Louise and John, spent the last years of their lives with the pain of the death of their daughter. Hopefully, this will be solved someday. If it's not, it's going to happen again. These things aren't just an isolated incident.

Miles Briner (21:42)

They took everything.

Frank Pauline Jr. (21:43)

It's not going away.

Miles Briner (21:44)

Never.

Ken Lawson (21:45)

I mean, you got it for the rest of your life. I mean, everything. And her sister Sandy, the community. There is some bad people here, but there's a lot of good people. And they've showed a lot of aloha to my family.

Miles Briner (22:02)

And we really.

Ken Lawson (22:05)

It helped us get through this. All the really good people and the good aloha we experienced from Everybody here. And three men. There's Frank Pauline Jr. And his family, who is still trying to pick up the pieces like his Aunt Lori. I always said I pray real hard. I say, God, you ain't blind, ain't deaf and dumb. I pray to God I'm still, still alive to see your boys. All these boys, their names all clear because they're all innocent. Innocent lives taken for what? The system here really screwed up until today. We still have police force, are corrupt. We still do. Innocent lives were taken. They cannot replace the lives that they've taken. The livelihoods from these boys and their families taken. They cannot replace that taken away from him and his sons.

Miles Briner (23:03)

Well, we're still proceeding. We have a hearing on our. On our portion of the case coming up, and we're going to dovetail whatever has been filed by the Schweitzer brothers. There's no reason to reinvent the wheel. Judge Kubota is facing a problem. There has to be some type of acknowledgement to all the parties that a mistake was made of tragic proportions, almost, you know, Shakespearean Greek tragedy of sorts. And as you said, money's one thing, but everyone wants the exoneration. And from the perspective of the surviving sons of Frank Pauline, their lives were destroyed. Both of them have having great difficulty. They had to leave their own island and live elsewhere because they were being attacked, you know, in school and throughout the community. And the difficulty is they grew up, you know, the belief their father had participated in one of the most horrendous murders possible. It turns out Frank wasn't guilty. Now, I know there's all types of problems with Frank. I represented him many years ago when Frank had. Was an habitual liar. That's the reality of it. Why he made up these comments, why he implicated Schweitzer's, I'll never know. It's. It's frankly outrageous and incomprehensible that he did it. But that was Frank.

Ken Lawson (24:30)

Then you have Sean Schweitzer.

Shannon Kagawa (24:33)

You don't really believe it's gonna happen because it's like so fucking ridiculous that it, you know, it. That's how I felt. I felt it was fucking ridiculous. I didn't feel good about it. For a long time. Could tell you that. I mean, you know, from what, 94 to probably up until like last year. Yeah. Took me a long time to not be an angry person. Being angry and trying to control yourself is hard, especially in kids. I mean, people mess with your kids and, you know, do stupid shit or they wave at you like they're your friend, you know what I mean? Fuck you. Yeah.

Ken Lawson (25:16)

And finally there's Albert Ian Schweitzer.

Ian Schweitzer (25:20)

I think what they charged me with is what they did to me, you know, what they made me out to be a monster. All that newspaper articles. That's the conviction right there. Run that for about eight years, you know, seven years, because I messed up, you know, I gotta talk to a therapist next week, you know, and I don't care who you are, you do 20 plus years, you're not maybe as best off as I am. Oh, they knew. They know. I mean, they can't be that dumb, you know, they cannot be that dumb. This was just 100% malicious. Intentional, intentional. They intentionally made sure I ended up with the worst attorney in the state of Hawaii.

Ken Lawson (26:15)

Ian's village has rallied around him for the last 30 years.

Ian Schweitzer (26:21)

But you know, what the county of Hawaii did to my parents and parents perspective, you know, I fucking killed them mentally, physically, financially, emotionally. And then just times it by 100, you know, I just drained them.

Sean Schweitzer (26:42)

Finally started like, even looking at life in a different way, because knowing his brother's in prison, he just didn't want to move forward or do anything different or whatever because all he can think about is brought us sitting in a cell. So it kind of stopped him a lot from just being. Doing anything. He just go work, come home, go work, come home. That's all he did. He never, like, try to reach out, you know, do something that he loves, passion. Anything that made him happy, he wouldn't do because he knew his brother was sitting in the cell. But now we have Ian with us every day and stuff. I can just see him just, you know, just releasing and being okay with life. He can be happy now because his brother is not in a cell, you know, so.

Ken Lawson (27:21)

But by the end of this series, there came a fourth family that at this stage may be a little harder to empathize with. And that's Albert Laurel Jr. S family, his wife and kids and family members. Perhaps they had no clue that their husband, their dad, their uncle or cousin or son was responsible for something so unimaginable. And what must it be like to grapple with that revelation now or equally as Terrifying. Perhaps some of them knew or suspected. We may never know or fully understand until they decide. If they decide to speak for themselves. Regardless, Albert Lorrel Jr. S crime will have an effect on them, and they will bear his infamy in part simply by sharing his name. I know my family did. But we should also be mindful of the presumption of innocence, that there are many legitimate reasons they may not want to talk. And Even Albert Laurel Jr. If he were alive today, would deserve to be presumed innocent until proven guilty in a court of law. Though it still remains troubling that the Hawaii PD has taken such pains to grant that presumption of innocence for him, even in his death, when they were so cavalier about going after Ian and Sean with nothing but a wild tale from an unreliable narrator. Steve Kramer and Steve Bush agree.

Steve Kramer (28:59)

I don't know any detective, homicide detectives that we've worked with that thought that was a good. In fact, everybody thinks it's a bonehead idea. I don't know why. Like I said, I cannot think. And I'd like that answered, like, what was the investigative reason for taking his DNA again and then certainly letting him go? So if you're asking me, is there any question, is there any rub about there being probable causes he murdered her, I think that's ludicrous. And I can tell you, as you can imagine, Steve and I have a lot of law enforcement friends, both in the FBI and many, many agencies across the country. And I've been inundated with, you know, my friends, prosecutors, investigators, going, what the hell happened in Hawaii? And what was going on with the police there, that saying that there's no probable cause? And all I can say is, like, didn't have control of it. And I can tell you that that is not the way. You know, the FBI, you know, the FBI would never go out and take over DNA from an individual after they've already, you know, confirmed. And surreptitious DNA. That's the probable cause. Like every warrant we've done, including federal warrants that Steve and I have worked on in federal court, same thing. Like, the surreptitious DNA is all you need. So I, I, I, I think this case was a tragedy. From December 24, 1991, through July 19.

Ken Lawson (30:23)

2024, we came into this case asking ourselves, who killed Dana Ireland? Because from everything we've seen and studied and analyzed, we can say without a shadow of a doubt that there's no reliable evidence tying Frank Pauline Jr. Sean Schweitzer and Albert Ian Schweitzer to the crime. And we now have very solid evidence implicating a man who just took his own life when he learned he was a suspect. So what happens next?

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Ken Lawson (32:26)

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Steve Bush (32:39)

Two things. One, that you'll probably still see civil rights action from for violation of civil rights by the Brothers against the Defendants, Hilo Police Department, and possibly the prosecutors that were involved back then. Secondly, you'll see us demand that the Justice Department investigate the circumstances surrounding the death of Albert Laurel. I mean, my understanding. I don't know how much the chief told you about that. My understanding is that the beat officers came there Tuesday in response to his suicide. His wife was there and it indicated that she was worried about him ever since he had the encounter with the police on Friday and that she had intentionally taken off work because she was worried something might happen to him, you know, or, you know, he may do something. And she could no longer take off work days. So when Tuesday came, he assured her he would be okay and she left. And then he killed himself. Now, I hate to sound like a conspirator, right, but I mean, you know, if they're Savelle in his house and they see her Leave. I want to know how he died. I'm saying, why would you go to this extent to cover all this stuff up? Who are you protecting and why? Why? I mean, why would you not use the best practices when everybody and their mama's telling you to use them? Why would you let him go?

Miles Briner (34:01)

I like to see accountability with the police department and the prosecutor's office. I think they need to appoint a special prosecutor to investigate from the U.S. attorney's office or from DOJ to find out what happened. I mean, they're so hot to trot to go out to appoint special prosecutors, at least as far as the city and county of Honolulu. I think it's time that the Big island police and the prosecutor's office be subject to a full blown investigation. How they handled this.

Shannon Kagawa (34:29)

We embraced the DNA of Lincoln and Cheetah. We embraced the DNA who use it, but doesn't mean that they're not guilty. Yeah, that's exactly what he said.

Ian Schweitzer (34:40)

He's a criminal.

Shannon Kagawa (34:41)

He should, he should go back on a prosecuting team and bring it out.

Ian Schweitzer (34:45)

Yeah, I dare. With my team now. Like, I dare.

Shannon Kagawa (34:48)

Yeah, like we got more evidence.

Ian Schweitzer (34:52)

I loved him, Got some good lawyers.

Shannon Kagawa (34:56)

I like to see him stuttering in front of that judge, trying to figure out how you can put this together. Now. There's no way he would get did what he did to us now. There's no way. Ain't happening.

Frank Pauline Jr. (35:11)

I think people need to know how difficult this system is to undo. You know, we talk about the nine months that we've waited between Ian and Sean. It's the same evidence, it's the same people, it's the same testimony. Nothing has changed, but it's taken this long. You know, I look at Sean's children and I think how hard it must have been for them. And they're great kids. And that's credit to everybody else in the family. And that's credit to Sean being here. Even Ian's kid. You know what, that's a great kid. And he grew up with this over his head. He grew up with kids making fun of them. You know, all of these children grew up with their parents. It's not a well known name. Schweitzer is not a popular name in the islands, but it is a well known name in this island because of what happened. So to undo the damage that was done, it's kind of too late. But we can try and make it right later.

Ken Lawson (36:13)

Right?

Frank Pauline Jr. (36:13)

And we don't want to ever see the wrong person be convicted of a crime. You set 100 guilty men free. But do you want to put that one innocent one in prison for life, which is what Ian could have been. It's just. It's a very sad case. There's just no winners here. There's no winners. While it's celebratory for the Schweitzers, and I'm so happy for them to have to wait all this time and to finally get this day, to see Mama Schweitzer, who's undergoing chemotherapy, to see that her boys are finally both home for Christmas and free and clear of these criminal charges. This is going to be the best Christmas for them. But she has now breast cancer. She's fighting that, and she's going through a lot. And so it's hard.

Ken Lawson (36:53)

It's.

Frank Pauline Jr. (36:54)

You know, you can't get that time back. But also for Dana Ireland's family, for her sister, it's heartbreaking.

Ken Lawson (37:03)

No one forced the police or prosecutors to take on those roles, but when they did, they became responsible for protecting their community, for acting ethically, for delivering justice and not impeding it, for serving the truth. Those are heavy responsibilities. People's lives are at stake, and we should rightly honor the people who uphold them with integrity. But with big responsibility comes big accountability. And when our public servants fail us all, as they failed the Ireland family, the Paulines and the Schweitzers, something needs to be done to balance the scales. Until that day, Sean and Ian are taking each day as it comes. Not exactly sure what's next.

Ian Schweitzer (37:54)

I don't even know. You know, it's like, you know, they definitely need to pay us. Well, I've only been out for five months, so I think we're right on track. I think you guys being here right now at this moment, I think the timing is perfect, you know, and just, you know, keep this story alive for us.

Shannon Kagawa (38:15)

Yeah.

Ken Lawson (38:17)

One of the things I really hope to convey to you in this series is that the story never ends at what I call the hamburger moment. They finally test the DNA. They find the real killer. The innocent man walks out of prison and takes his first bite of a burger. Then curtains. That's how the local news so often plays it, as if the struggle for justice is finally over. But actual wrongful convictions are messy, both procedurally and psychologically. Too often, prosecutors are an obstacle not just to release, but to declarations of factual innocence and compensation. And even if those things happen, having your reputation smeared as a monstrous killer can never be totally undone. I'm living with these consequences today. By the time you hear this podcast, My own legal nightmare will hopefully finally be over after 18 years of trials. Yes, the trials have not stopped. It's more complicated than you know. But even if I'm finally fully vindicated, I'm unlikely to ever see compensation for my wrongful imprisonment, and the stigma of accusation hangs over me. Whether the Italian justice system considers me a criminal or a victim, I know there are millions of people out there who will never be convinced of my innocence. If you're curious how I continue to process all that, you can follow my podcast, Labyrinths. Check out my new book, Free, which comes out on March 25, and find me@amandanox.com all of that is linked in the show Notes For Ian and Sean, the same stigma remains as their legal battle for compensation continues. And it's so much harder to rebuild your life when over two decades were stolen from you. So I urge you to support Ian. He and his family have set up a GoFundMe that we're going to link to in the show notes for anyone who is interested in donating. Additionally, you can support the incredible work the Hawaii Innocence Project does each day, which, aside from working on Ian and Sean's case, has exonerated four other innocent people and has many more active cases. This work is expensive for an average client. Access to police reports and court records can cost upwards of $1200. Visiting their clients in Arizona, where most are incarcerated, costs over $1,000 in travel expenses. Expert consulting often runs around $2,400 per expert per evidentiary hearing, and that testimony is crucial to debunk things like tire tread marks, bite marks and other junk science. DNA testing is more expensive still, costing upwards of $2,500 per item to be tested in a lab. And it's not uncommon for there to be dozens of items worth testing. And that's not to mention any of the time for the attorneys working tirelessly on these cases. And it often takes years and years to overturn a wrongful conviction. While the costs keep piling up, you can visit www.hawaiiinnocenceproject.org and click the Donate button to support them, their work and their clients. And lastly, if you have any information about the abduction and murder of Dana Ireland, we encourage you to contact the Hawaii innocence project at contacthipawaiinnocenceproject.org you can also contact Crime Stoppers at 808-961-8300 and the Hawaii Police Department at 808-961-2380 or visit their website hawaiipolice.gov to submit a tip. So what do you think Chuck? Do you approve?

Amanda Knox (42:53)

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Frank Pauline Jr. (43:27)

My name.

Ken Lawson (43:28)

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Elizabeth Britt Bailey (43:40)

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Ken Lawson (44:18)

Ask your dermatologist about cosenty.