The Prison Priest | Chapter 4

Summary

THREE Season 2: Murder in Vacationland

Episode: The Prison Priest | Chapter 4

Release Date: March 27, 2025

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Overview

In Chapter 4 of THREE Season 2: Murder in Vacationland, host Amanda Knox delves deeper into the tumultuous legal battle surrounding the murder of Dana Ireland. This episode, titled "The Prison Priest," explores the intricate web of testimonies, evidence discrepancies, and prosecutorial maneuvers that have prolonged the quest for justice over the past three decades on the island of Hawai‘i. Through detailed narratives and emotional testimonies, the episode sheds light on the complexities and potential miscarriages within the legal system.

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The Ireland Family's Fight for Justice

The episode opens by recapping the persistent anguish of Dana Ireland’s parents, John and Louise Ireland, who have tirelessly sought justice for their daughter’s unresolved murder. Despite the conviction of three men, the Irelands are determined to uncover the truth, believing that someone else may have been responsible.

John Ireland (02:08): "Oh yeah, we all said DNA on our side. It didn't matter."

John and Louise Ireland's perseverance leads them to present a petition with thousands of signatures, compelling the police to revisit the case in January 1996. However, despite their efforts, DNA tests exonerate Frank Pauline Jr. and the Schweitzer brothers, adding to the family's frustration and desperation for answers.

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Frank Pauline Jr.'s Changing Testimony

Frank Pauline Jr., initially implicated in Dana Ireland’s murder, becomes a central figure whose credibility fluctuates throughout the investigation. Detectives believed Frank knew too many details to fabricate the entire story, but his reluctance to cooperate fully eventually undermines his position.

Frank Pauline Jr. (02:40): "They told me what for say. So I just said what they wanted me for, say."

In a pivotal turn of events, Frank confesses over the media that he was present at the crime scene but denies being with the Schweitzer brothers, claiming he was alone and under the influence of crack cocaine. This confession introduces doubt, especially when DNA evidence contradicts his involvement.

Frank Pauline Jr. (05:03): "I just seen these guys, you know what I mean, what they was doing and stuff. I never really do nothing."

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Prosecutorial Pressure and Witness Testimony

As frustrations mount over the lack of concrete evidence, the prosecution intensifies pressure on Frank Pauline Jr. to secure a conviction. This leads to strategic legal maneuvers, including the use of jailhouse informants like Mike Ortiz, whose testimonies are pivotal yet contentious.

Ken Lawson (06:57): "They eventually walk themselves into the murder charge right now, right? I'm just a witness. I don't know."

Frank’s communication with Dana’s father, John Ireland, from prison further complicates the narrative, showcasing the intense emotional and psychological toll on the families involved.

John Ireland (07:51): "They're okay sleeping at night with an innocent man dying in prison. They're all right with that."

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Trials and Legal Maneuvering

The legal proceedings against Frank, Ian, and Sean Schweitzer are marked by strategic delays and separate trials aimed at weakening the defense. As DNA evidence excludes the three men, the prosecution pivots to implicate additional individuals, including a potential fourth accomplice suggested by Frank.

Amanda Knox (17:01): "The defense team learns that DNA tests were done on the semen found on the vaginal swabs and on the hospital gurney that brought Dana Ireland into the ER and neither Frank, Ian nor Shawn were a match."

The dismissal of charges against Ian and Sean Schweitzer due to DNA mismatches initially appears as a victory for the defense but soon leads to further complications when bite mark evidence resurfaces, reigniting the prosecution's case.

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DNA Evidence and Its Impact

DNA evidence plays a critical role in shaping the trial's direction. Initially exonerating the accused, later revelations, such as the bite mark reanalysis, provide the prosecution with renewed grounds to pursue charges. However, the reliability of such evidence remains questionable.

Ken Lawson (20:33): "The only true science is DNA. The rest of this stuff, bite mark evidence, is just crazy, crazy, but people believe it."

The resurgence of bite mark evidence, despite being debunked as unreliable, highlights the challenges juries face in discerning credible evidence amidst conflicting testimonies.

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Jailhouse Informants and Their Role

Jailhouse informants like Mike Ortiz become instrumental in the prosecution’s strategy, albeit controversially. Their testimonies, often incentivized, raise concerns about their reliability and potential motivations for falsehoods.

Ken Lawson (25:55): "Incentivized informants, AKA jailhouse snitches, are one of the leading causes of wrongful connection convictions."

The episode underscores the problematic reliance on such informants, who may provide testimonies in exchange for benefits, thereby jeopardizing the integrity of the judicial process.

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The Conviction of Frank Pauline Jr.

Despite significant DNA evidence excluding him, Frank Pauline Jr. is ultimately convicted based largely on his own confession and the prosecution’s narrative. His conviction paves the way for the prosecution to reinvigorate charges against the Schweitzer brothers, even in the absence of concrete evidence.

Amanda Knox (33:37): "Frank Pauline is guilty of murder in the second degree, kidnapping and sexual assault in the first degree."

Frank’s altered testimony and the absence of reliable physical evidence underscore the precarious nature of his conviction, leaving the door open for potential appeals and exoneration efforts.

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Impact on Schweitzer Brothers

Ian and Sean Schweitzer find themselves in an increasingly precarious legal position following Frank’s conviction. The prosecution’s renewed indictment leverages incomplete DNA evidence and new testimonies to maintain pressuring the brothers, despite earlier dismissals.

Amanda Knox (42:36): "Having a poor defense, any defendant is more likely to take a plea deal. And the prosecution knows that."

Legal representation issues further weaken their defense, as public defenders are overburdened and under-resourced, making it difficult to mount an effective defense against the prosecution’s claims.

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Conclusion: Ongoing Struggles for Justice

Chapter 4 of THREE Season 2 highlights the enduring struggles faced by both the Ireland family and the accused in seeking justice. The interplay of flawed evidence, prosecutorial pressure, and systemic weaknesses within the legal system creates a scenario where truth remains elusive. As the trials continue, the episode leaves listeners contemplating the broader implications of wrongful convictions and the relentless pursuit of justice in the face of overwhelming odds.

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Notable Quotes

• John Ireland (10:29): "Yeah, my mom said that one time on the news and they threatened to put her in jail. I never heard of a gang order. I was like, what? Isn't that your first Amendment right?"

• Frank Pauline Jr. (04:18): "I was there at the wrong place, you know, at the wrong time."

• John Gonzalves (43:15): "They intentionally made sure I ended up with the worst attorney in the state of Hawaii."

• Ken Lawson (25:55): "Incentivized informants, AKA jailhouse snitches, are one of the leading causes of wrongful connection convictions."

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Final Thoughts

This episode of THREE intricately weaves the personal tragedies, legal battles, and ethical dilemmas that define the case of Dana Ireland's murder. Through compelling storytelling and critical examination of the evidence, Amanda Knox provides listeners with a nuanced understanding of the challenges inherent in the pursuit of justice within a flawed system.

Transcript

[Delia D'Ambra]

Hi everyone. I'm investigative journalist and park enthusiast Delia D'Ambra, and every week on my podcast Park Predators, I take you into the heart of our world's most stunning locations to uncover what sinister crimes have unfolded in these serene settings. From unsolved murders to chilling disappearances. Each Tuesday we dive deep into the details of cases that will leave you knowing sometimes the most beautiful places hide the darkest secrets. Listen to Park Predators now. Wherever you listen to podcasts with the Venmo debit card, you can turn the spa day that your friends paid you back for into concert tickets that you can earn up to 5% cash back on, where a spa day with the girls becomes concert tickets. Visit Venmo Me Debit to learn more. The Venmo MasterCard is issued by the Bancorp Bank N.A. pursuant to license by MasterCard International, Inc. Terms apply Dosh cashback term supply.

[Amanda Knox]

I.

[Delia D'Ambra]

Can say to my new Samsung Galaxy S25 Ultra, hey, find a keto friendly restaurant nearby and text it to Beth and Steve. And it does without me lifting a finger so I can get in more squats anywhere I can. 1, 2, 3.

[Amanda Knox]

Will that be cash or credit?

[Delia D'Ambra]

Credit.

[Samsung Galaxy]

4 Galaxy S25 Ultra the AI companion that does the heavy lifting. So you can do you get [e-mail] compatible with select apps. Requires Google Gemini account. Results may vary based on input. Check responses for accuracy.

[Amanda Knox]

The year 1995 has come to an end, and as far as the Irelands are concerned, they're no closer to getting justice for their daughter. After the new year, John and Louise come back to the island with a petition containing thousands of signatures. So police take action. In January 1996, they send the case to prosecutors despite the fact that test results for Frank and the Schweitzer brothers and a few other potential suspects have failed to show any connection to Dana's murder.

[John Ireland]

Oh yeah, we all said DNA on our side. It didn't matter.

[Amanda Knox]

And by now, detectives are tired of Frank's countless changing stories. But they think he knows too many details to have made the whole thing up. But there's a problem for Frank, though. He expected to be treated as a witness after implicating the Schweitzer brothers, he eventually realizes that he's in potentially just as much trouble as they are. So he changes his tune.

[Frank Pauline Jr.]

The reason why I said that, like I said, the detectives really wanted me to say what they wanted me for, say. And I kind of, I feel hurt for the family and stuff, but these people, I don't know what is the detectives, what is their problem. But you know what I mean. They told me what for say. So I said. I just said what they wanted me for, say.

[Amanda Knox]

Throughout 1996, the Schweitzer brothers are trying their best to maintain a normal life. Not only have they been living the past year under a police microscope, but thanks to Frank's confession and his media tour frenzy, the public has their eyes on them too. And to the islanders, these men were bad news.

[John Ireland]

We had wanted dead posters. Yeah. Put up in Pohoa Town. The media, anytime we went to any little thing came up, they ran it in the front page. They ran it in the front page. I bet you will count how much time it was in the front page. You get about at least 100.

[Amanda Knox]

While the brothers want nothing to do with the spotlight, Frank wants everyone to know his name and his story. But his story isn't what people are coming to believe. They think he's just as guilty as the Schweitzer brothers. So Frank decides to call up the one resource that always seems to listen. The media. It's time for him to clear some things up, but not just about his own involvement.

[Frank Pauline Jr.]

You know what I mean? I was there at the wrong place, you know, at the wrong time. And I was involved. That's what I really wanted everybody for know. Because right now everybody stay hearing, you know, bad publicity about me. They make it seem like I was involved when they wrong.

[Amanda Knox]

Were you in the Volkswagen though, with the Schweitzers at any point?

[Frank Pauline Jr.]

I was in a Ford Cavalier station wagon. And the detectives know that too. They got verification on that.

[Amanda Knox]

So basically, as far as your connection with Dana Ireland, what did you see?

[Delia D'Ambra]

You saw her on the road.

[Amanda Knox]

What did you see?

[Frank Pauline Jr.]

Well, no, see there was. I say it again. They made me say a lot of things they wanted for here. It was mostly all fabrication, I would say.

[Amanda Knox]

I'm Amanda Knox and this is three, Chapter four. The prison priest. Frank goes on to tell the reporter that it's true that he was there on Kapohokai Drive when Dana Ireland was murdered. But he wasn't there with the Schweitzer brothers. He was there by himself smoking crack cocaine.

[Frank Pauline Jr.]

I just seen these guys, you know what I mean, what they was doing and stuff. I never really do nothing. I never know who fulfill or what fulshear. I was more afraid for myself and for my kids. So I never did say anything about it. But the thing is where I was when they came in, you know what I mean? They dropped. They took the girl out of the car and they Threw her on the ground. And they was doing what they did to her. You know what I mean?

[Amanda Knox]

But who did that?

[Frank Pauline Jr.]

I cannot say their names, but not at this moment. But they were the one that did it anyway.

[Amanda Knox]

But you're saying it was somebody else?

[Delia D'Ambra]

Not the people that are targeted in the grand jury?

[Frank Pauline Jr.]

No.

[Amanda Knox]

When investigators meet with Frank at oahu Prison on July 6, 1996, after his public recantation, he gives investigators this new story and a new name. But here's the thing. I can walk you through each specific detail of each of Frank's stories, but that's all they are. Stories. Stories that, according to Ken Lawson of the Hawaii Innocence Project, Frank hoped he'd benefit from.

[Ken Lawson]

Remember, you got Mr. Island writing U.S. senators. U.S. senators are writing over here to the governor. You got letters from the governor. And so you got all these letters from high ranking people asking Big island police, and they're probably like, what are you guys doing when you're gonna solve this crime? So it's that type of pressure, along with the, you know, the victim's family, obviously, but it's that type of pressure. It's like, look, you gotta do something. And so they eventually, each time Frank wants a benefit or some type of money on his books or some type of, you know, package being delivered or visiting with his girlfriend and stuff like that, he has to give them more information. Hey, Frank, you want something? You gotta tell us a little bit more about this case. He eventually walks himself into the murder charge right now, right? So it goes out. I'm just a witness. I don't know. Hey, man, I don't know what you're talking about. I saw this. I'm being a good inmate.

[Amanda Knox]

One night, Frank. Pauline even calls Dana's father, John Ireland, from prison to tell him, quote, I know who really killed your daughter. And John tells investigators that this conversation ended with John telling Frank, quote, you son of a bitch, I hope you rot in jail, as he slammed down the phone. Around the same time, while Frank is serving a prison sentence for another crime, he is indicted for first degree sexual assault against a minor under 14 years old back in 1993. And police are still receiving compelling tips that contradict the forensic results. A woman even tells them that Frank had once bitten her in the same location where the supposed bite mark was found on Dana. All in all, police are feeling pretty good about their chances with Frank. But the Irelands, not so much. My only purpose here is to find the people that did this to my daughter and have them indicted. Be very difficult to Convince the jury that this guy is a.

[Frank Pauline Jr.]

Is a good witness with his background. I would like to put enough pressure.

[Amanda Knox]

On him over here to get.

[Frank Pauline Jr.]

Get indictments in short order. This has been going on too long.

[Amanda Knox]

We should get some kind of answer this time because that's what we over here for.

[Frank Pauline Jr.]

I think the people in the state.

[Amanda Knox]

Of Hawaii are upset and we're upset.

[Frank Pauline Jr.]

And, and I like to see it come to a conclusion.

[Amanda Knox]

A Little more than five and a half years after the murder of Dana Ireland on July 29, 1997, Frank Pauline is indicted and charged with second degree murder, first degree sexual assault and kidnapping. But he's not the only one. A couple Months later, on October 9, 1997, Albert, Ian Schweitzer and Sean Schweitzer are indicted on the same charges as Frank. All three of the men plead not guilty, while Frank has to wait it out in prison. Ian and Sean's parents do all they can to make bail. And part of the bail agreement is everyone is placed under a very strict gag order.

[John Ireland]

There's part of our term to get bail. The first time is they put a gag order so we couldn't talk to any, any polit.

[John Gonzalves]

We couldn't say we were innocent.

[John Ireland]

Yeah, my mom said that one time on the news and they threatened to put her in jail. I never heard of a gang order. I was like, what? Isn't that your first Amendment right? Is you freedom of speech supposed to be able to say what you defend yourself? You know, you gotta watch all these newspaper come out and you can't even say anything to defend yourself. It's like having a tape on your mouth.

[Amanda Knox]

So they keep their mouths shut for the next six months as they prepare for their day in court. Ian and Sean's date is set for April 6, 1998, while Frank is supposed to go on trial in January, but that gets delayed until July 1998. You may be wondering why the separate trials? This happens more often than you might think, especially when the evidence implicating the suspects is thin. In my case, my boyfriend Raffaele and I were arrested early on after the police coerced me into signing statements which implicated myself, Raffaele and my boss. I recanted those statements hours later, once the brutal police pressure was off. And when the forensic evidence came back two weeks later, it all pointed to a local burglar named Rudy Gudet. Not a trace of me, Raffaele, or my boss. G'day. Even said at first that we weren't present at the crime scene. But instead of going after G'day alone, as they should have. The police doubled down on their initial mistake and charged all three of us with the crime. G'day then changed his story and pointed the blame at me and Raffaele. If they'd tried us all together, it would have been easy for my defense to show how all the evidence pointed to G'day as the sole killer. So instead, G'day was tried separately and was convicted in a fast track trial with no opportunity for my defense to cross examine him. Raffaele and I were then tried together where prosecutors could take GD's role as a judicial fact and build their case against us from there. Something similar happened with the Schweitzer brothers. By trying them separately from Frank, it would be harder for the Schweitzer's defense to cast doubt on Frank, the sole witness against them. And a potential failure to convict Frank wouldn't necessarily tank the prosecution's chances of convicting them. So the trial dates were set and the prosecution began preparing its cases. Ian and Sean would have to prepare as well.

[Ian Schweitzer]

So what happened is, when they first brought the indictment, the court appointed a set of lawyers to represent Ian, Shawn.

[Amanda Knox]

And Frank Pauline, that's Keith Shigetomi, who took over as Shawn's counsel in March of 1998.

[Ian Schweitzer]

The court went through great lengths to make sure that the attorneys that were appointed were quality attorneys and that the courts could trust that they were going to provide good, well, not good, I mean, superior representation to the three of them. Then what happened was once the attorneys were selected and were representing Frank, Ian, and Sean, the prosecutor started saying, well, you know, we want to disqualify some of these attorneys. So I think they moved to disqualify Frank's lawyer, who was well regarded, and then they disqualified Sean's lawyer, who was highly regarded. And, you know, I was a lawyer in private practice in Honolulu. I had been practicing criminal defense for a number of years. I had a lot of high profile cases. And the court called me and asked me if I would consider. But, you know, typically when the court appoints someone, they simply will call the attorney, Ask the attorney, hey, are you available? Will you accept the case? But in Sean's case, before that even happened, the court called and, well, the staff called and said, you know, judge would like to interview you and talk to you before she makes a decision on who she's actually going to appoint. It's always better to have good lawyers involved because there's less mistakes made and it saves time and money in the future. So I mean, that's kind of how that went. And the court called me in Honolulu and asked me to represent Shawn. And so, you know, that's the kind of steps that were taken in this case, which typically doesn't happen because, you know, the court saw the significance and magnitude of the case.

[Amanda Knox]

Then in March, Sean and Ian's individual legal teams receive some shocking new information from the Hawaii District Attorney.

[Delia D'Ambra]

With the Venmo debit card, you can turn the spa day that your friends paid you back for into concert tickets that you can earn up to 5% cash back on, where spa day with the girls becomes concert tickets. Visit Venmo Me Debit to learn more. The Venmo MasterCard is issued by the Bancorp Bank N.A. pursuant to license by MasterCard International Incorporated. Term supply Dosh Cashback Term supply.

[Amanda Knox]

My amazing new Samsung Galaxy S25 Ultra reduces noise in my concert videos with.

[Ken Lawson]

Galaxy AI taking them from this to this.

[Amanda Knox]

Now I have time to bejewel my favorite artists faces onto jackets. This one really captures their eyes.

[Samsung Galaxy]

Galaxy S25 Ultra, the AI companion that reduces distractions. So you can do you get [e-mail] compatible with common video formats. Accessible in gallery helps minimize six select sound results for your Galaxy AI. View features by Samsung free through 2025.

[Amanda Knox]

The defense team learns that DNA tests were done on the semen found on the vaginal swabs and on the hospital gurney that brought Dana Ireland into the er and neither Frank, Ian nor Shawn were a match.

[Ian Schweitzer]

And so we're talking to them and I asked them, well, what are you guys going to do about this DNA result? And they said, you know, there's all this mind games going on. It's like nothing. I said, what do you mean nothing? And so I told prosecutor, well, I guess then you won't mind that I sent in a motion to dismiss. And we have the DNA result attached to it. And all of a sudden prosecutors start swearing, you know, what the did you do that for? You know, what the. You know, it's like, well, you told me you don't care, so what's the problem? I mean, that's what I'm doing. I'm finding a motion to dismiss. And it's like, but just calm down. You know, I said, I'm willing to call the court and say, hey, don't file this motion. Because they're obviously at that point, nobody, there's no public knowledge of it. And so now all of a sudden everybody's going to find out that the DNA doesn't match and so I said, but, you know, if you're willing to give me something for it, I'll call the court and say, don't file the motion. Just hold on to it. What do you want? Want the case dismissed.

[Amanda Knox]

It's October of 1998, and Ian and Sean's trials are about to start when a dramatic ruling upends the entire case against the Schweitzer brothers.

[Ian Schweitzer]

And a couple days later, they came back and they said, okay, we'll dismiss. And so that added another tremendous twist to the case. Because we go to court, nobody's expecting it, and all of a sudden the state files this notice of dismissal. And now the public's even more like, what the heck is going on in this case?

[Amanda Knox]

It's to everyone's surprise that the judge grants the request and the charges against Ian and Sean are dropped. The brothers are free now, but in the court of public opinion, they are anything but.

[Ian Schweitzer]

But I mean, the public was in an outrage at that point because without notice, here they are dismissing the case and everyone saying, hey, these inept prosecutors or police are screwing up again. And so, you know, that was a sacrifice that or concession that we were willing to make because we were under the impression that they're not going to try this case again with. With. The DNA doesn't match. Now, in Frank's situation, you got a little different story because Frank says, I did this, I did that. And so you want to try Frank, go ahead. But Ian and Sean, no way.

[Amanda Knox]

But the door is still open for retrial if new evidence emerges. And emerge it does. For example, the bite mark. Analysts decides to change his initial findings, saying he can't exclude Frank, Ian, or Sean as the source of the bite mark.

[John Ireland]

It's amazing. Even the bite mark, I mean, bite mark isn't even a bite mark.

[Ken Lawson]

The only true science is DNA. The rest of this stuff, bite mark evidence, is just crazy, crazy, but people believe it.

[Amanda Knox]

Bite mark evidence is now thoroughly debunked as junk science. But back in 1998, it held sway with experts, with judges, and with juries. This twist with the bite mark evidence is a bad sign for Ian and Sean. But even so, their defense is not convinced that the prosecution can make a case out of it alone, given the clear lack of DNA and physical evidence tying the three to the murder. But one thing I've learned in a high profile homicide investigation, it's not just the freedom of the accused on the line, but also the reputations and egos of prosecutors and law enforcement. Nobody likes to be wrong. And especially not with so many people watching. And so it's no surprise that with Egg on their face, after dropping the charges against Schweitzer brothers, the prosecution was willing to find whatever scrap of evidence they could to prove they had been right all along. By May of 1999, Ian and Shawn Schweitzer face a renewed indictment for kidnapping, sexual assault, and murder. But the legal language this time includes the phrase, with others hinting at the involvement of Freedom, Frank and a potential fourth person who Frank alluded to in the past. The inclusion of this detail in the indictment gives prosecutors flexibility when addressing the DNA discrepancy before the jury. Even though it doesn't match any of the three men on trial, they can claim it belongs to this fourth mystery accomplice and that the lack of a match doesn't prove the innocence of Frank, Ian, or Sean. Again, this is similar to what happened with my case. Though all the DNA evidence pointed to Rudy Gaday, he was convicted in his own trial of committing the crime with others. And that was used to implicate me and Raffaele and excuse the obvious absurdity that we'd somehow participated in a violent murder without leaving any traces of ourselves at the scene. But the bite mark isn't enough. The prosecution needs more, and they find what they're looking for in a man named Mike Ortiz. Like many people at the center of this story, jailhouse informant Mike Ortiz is only several degrees of separation away from Shawn and Ian Schweitzer, even though they've never met him. And Mike has plenty to gain from implicating the Schweitzer brothers, just like John Gonzalves and his family.

[Ken Lawson]

Now, keep in mind, too, Gonzalez wants that $25,000 reward money, and so you can only get it if it leads to a conviction. So remember, he gets Frank to call in to say, hey, man, talk about the spices, and get mom and dad. Get mom and the family off the cocaine. So, so Frank do it. They get indicted, then the indictment gets dismissed, and there goes John's 25 G's. So now John's calling Ortiz. They say, hey, man, right? So now they get indicted again. And you'll see the letters in there from Gonzales talking about, you know, you can pay the money to my aunt or something.

[Amanda Knox]

Gonzalez even writes a letter to the Irelands about the reward money, sharing the financial, physical, and mental struggles he and his family have been through. To avoid being accused of acting in self interest, he asks that the check be made out to his aunt. The Irelands don't reply, but forward the letter to the prosecutor's office. But beyond the money, which he doesn't get by the way, rumor inside the prison is that deals are being handed out left and right and that this particular deal is the best deal out there.

[John Gonzalves]

They already came to the conclusion in their mind that we're going to railroad the Schweitzer brothers and that's it. And we're going to give John Gonzalez his immunity and his mother the immunity, and that's it. And we're going to let Mike Ortiz out of jail again. So the prosecutors and the detectives, they're all right sleeping at night with an innocent man dying in prison. They're all right with that. I don't know why it was so important for giving this guy this deal, especially when he came after me and Sean the second time.

[Amanda Knox]

This scenario isn't just speculative. Incentivized informants, AKA jailhouse snitches, are one of the leading causes of wrongful connection convictions. Advocates have repeatedly warned against offering incentives to informants since it creates enormous motivation for inmates like Mike Ortiz to give false testimony and evidence. Yet such incentivized testimony is relied upon in court to this day.

[Ken Lawson]

He's like the prison priest, but he just happens to wear stripes instead of the white collar.

[Delia D'Ambra]

With the Venmo debit card, you can turn the mini golf outing your co workers paid you back for into a trip to Miami with your best friend, earning you up to 5% cash back. Use Venmo to pay for the things you love to do. Visit Venmo Me Devit to learn more. The Venmo MasterCard is issued by the Bancorp Bank N.A. pursuant to license by Mastercard International, Inc. Terms applied dosh cash back My new super Smart Samsung Galaxy S25 Ultra keeps me a step ahead thanks to now brief with Galaxy AI. It shows me my daily appointments at a glance so I can focus on my passion posing my pups to recreate French paintings. Bruno, you look like a princess.

[Samsung Galaxy]

Galaxy S25 Ultra the AI companion that streamlines your day so you can do you get [e-mail] displays daily select info from select apps. May require Internet connection. Galaxy AI features by Samsung free through 2025 and require Samsung account login.

[Amanda Knox]

With no physical evidence tying any of the men to Dana's murder and the DNA excluding them, Mike Ortiz could be the trigger the prosecution needs to push their case to trial so investigators go speak with him.

[Mike Ortiz]

If Today is Monday, May 17, and it's 10:38 Hawaii time and we're in Minnesota, which is five hours ahead. This is a video interview of. What is your full and correct name?

[Frank Pauline Jr.]

Michael Wayne Ortiz.

[Amanda Knox]

They speak with Mike in Minnesota, where he is being held for theft charges. This isn't the first time they have spoken with him, though. They got his initial statement over a phone call a few days earlier. Today's visit is to verify all that information one last time in person.

[Mike Ortiz]

Michael, on May 5, 1999, we had a video conferencing with you from Honolulu to Minnesota. Do you remember that video conference?

[Amanda Knox]

Yes.

[Mike Ortiz]

We asked you questions about the Dana Ireland case, and you provided us with information which we recorded on audio tape. Do you remember us doing that?

[Amanda Knox]

Yes.

[Mike Ortiz]

Is the information that you gave us on the audio tape true and correct to the best of your knowledge?

[Frank Pauline Jr.]

Yes.

[Mike Ortiz]

Do you remember who you got that information from?

[Amanda Knox]

Yes.

[Mike Ortiz]

Who gave you that information? Information?

[Frank Pauline Jr.]

Ian Switzer.

[Mike Ortiz]

At what area or when did he give you that information?

[Frank Pauline Jr.]

Somewhere around August of last year.

[Amanda Knox]

98 in Hilo jail.

[Mike Ortiz]

That's Hilo jail?

[Amanda Knox]

Yes.

[Mike Ortiz]

Okay. Have I promised you or anybody from my office promised you anything in exchange for the information that you gave us on May 5th over the video conferencing?

[Amanda Knox]

No.

[Mike Ortiz]

Okay. Michael, are you willing to testify in the Ireland case should the case go to trial?

[Amanda Knox]

Yes.

[Mike Ortiz]

It is now 10:41 and end of this tape recorded session.

[Amanda Knox]

Three other inmates also come forward, all jailhouse informants and all anxious to cut their own deals in exchange for information. They claim to have information that can be easily conveyed to them because Dana's case is widely known inside and outside the prison walls by this point. After investigators talk with Mike and these other informants, it's official. The case against Shawn Schweitzer, Ian Schweitzer, and Frank Pauline Jr. Will move forward for the second time. And, oh, that line from the investigator. Have I promised you anything in exchange for this information? Well, actions speak louder than words.

[Delia D'Ambra]

In exchange for his testimony, Ortiz is expected to be placed in protective custody and have his 15 year sentence reduced. Prosecutors allegedly played his taped testimony for defense attorneys when they offered the brothers a plea agreement last month.

[Amanda Knox]

It's frightening that that's all they have against my son. Lack of. There's no physical evidence, so now they're going into the jails and offering deals or making deals with convicted felons. And my sons are paid for it. After their renewed indictment, the Schweitzer brothers are sent back to jail, technically together.

[John Gonzalves]

I was never a cellmate with him. Yeah, Hilo, you lock down 23, 24 hours. So if it's raining there's no wrecks for 24 hours. You lock in cell and that's majority of all the time.

[John Ireland]

I think I did like six months on the ground. 23 hours lockdown in Hilo. Hilo jail ceiling because of the overpopulation. Populated. Yeah. You get two guys on bunk and one guy on the ground and you're in there 23 hours a day.

[Amanda Knox]

They are both held with no bail under strict order to avoid contact with the roughly 300 witnesses involved in the case by July 1999. Several politicians offices in both Hawaii and Washington D.C. have become accustomed to the flood of letters from John and Louise Ireland, who remain committed to getting justice for their daughter. The pressure is everywhere and things are now at a boiling point. As Frank Pauline Jr. S trial begins on July 21, prosecutor Charlene Iboshi lays out the gruesome details of what they believed happened that day. That Dana Ireland, riding on a bicycle that day, was struck by the defendant and his friends off her bicycle taken from that scene. She was beaten, struck, disabled, and just thrown away into the bushes. But his conscience would not undo what Frank Pauline and what his friend did to her. Sitting at the defense table, observers note a marked change in Frank Pauline's appearance. Gone is the tough guy facade. In its place, Frank exudes warmth and looks just like another guy in glasses and a button up shirt, his tattoos barely visible above his collar. The defense, led by Cliff Hunt, leans on two key points as their arguments that Frank's confessions to police were false and that the physical evidence, mainly the DNA, does not support any of the three men being part of this.

[Mike Ortiz]

So Frank Pauline was obviously lying. But Frank Pauline will testify. Detective Guillermo pressed him. Oh, come on, you must have done something.

[Amanda Knox]

You unwacked the girl.

[Mike Ortiz]

And finally Frank Pauline says, well, what do you want me to say? Is that what you want me to say? Okay, I hit her. But the sperm DNA did not match Frank Pauline Jr. S known DNA because he provided a sample, did not match Sean Schweitzer's known DNA profile and did not match in Schweitzer's known DNA profile. They were all excluded.

[Amanda Knox]

In a case fraught with complexity and emotion and with local and international pressure for a conviction, conflicting expert testimonies further muddy the waters, leaving the jury tasked with unraveling the tangled web of evidence. The defense opened its case with testimony from forensic experts from the FBI, who examined hairs on a bloody T shirt that prosecutors say belonged to Pauline. The FBI also examined hairs found on some underwear and Ireland socks, comparing them with DNA from Ireland. Pauline and the Schweitzers.

[James Bivin]

Therefore, Albert Schweitzer, Sean Schweitzer, Louise Ireland.

[Amanda Knox]

Including maternal relatives of Louise Ireland, Dane.

[James Bivin]

Ireland, and Frank Pauline Jr. Can be eliminated as the source of the hairs from the Q2 underwear, the hair from.

[Amanda Knox]

The Q12 T shirt, and the hair from the Q19, 1920 victim socked. Now the jury has yet another week's worth of evidence to help make a decision. Was Frank Pauline Jr. On that secluded trail with Dana Ireland? Dana's family are called to testify early in the trial, offering emotional testimony about Dana and the events that happened back on Christmas Eve 1991. As Sandy's voice chokes up, one of the jurors wipes away tears from her eyes.

[Delia D'Ambra]

I saw the hair, a lock of her hair on the road and her shoe and a watch, broken watch. And I knew something really bad had happened. Never saw her again, alive or dead. I never saw her again.

[Amanda Knox]

Dana's mom, Louise also takes the stand. And I called him and I said, john, you better come. Dana, this is life threatening. Come down here. So he came down and she died right after that. Ida Smith, who says she found Dana at the fishing trail, is also emotional in her testimony. And it wouldn't stop. Help me, help me. And I said, well, the voice was very faint. That's. So I thought it was a little girl. I heard the cop crying, so I said, I'm coming, you know, just where are you? I stopped looking. She had nothing on. Her jeans were. She had cut off jeans and they were down around her ankle. And her shirt looked like someone had grabbed it and tore it off her like that. So I got a hold of her arm, you know, and I said, let.

[Ian Schweitzer]

Me help you up.

[Amanda Knox]

And she said to scream.

[Delia D'Ambra]

Pain.

[Amanda Knox]

And I thought I stopped because I didn't want to hurt her. The lineup of witnesses includes three different prison inmates, all with a story to tell about how Frank had run his mouth in prison, telling them about his involvement in Dana's murder. Shannon Thumper Rodriguez was serving two life sentences for a double murder. And Jeffrey Alfonso was in on a drug conviction. And Shane Kobayashi on sexual assault. Kobayashi's sentence of up to 15 years was reduced to three. The same day, members of the Pauline family testify. Frank's girlfriend, the mother of two of his children, Sharla Figueroa, takes the stand and shares that she and her grandmother heard Frank confess over a 1994 prison phone call. And you had seen him, had seen him wearing that shirt before the Dana Ireland case? Yes. Did Frank Pauline tell you he didn't.

[Delia D'Ambra]

Want to tell you about the Dana Ireland case.

[Amanda Knox]

Yes. And why did he tell you that?

[Ian Schweitzer]

He said he's protecting me and my kids.

[Amanda Knox]

His dad is for your Latino. Yes. She goes on to recount the moment she saw damning evidence on television. A large shirt she had washed that she knew Frank wore and was bloody was now on the news linked to Ireland's death. Multiple witnesses would echo her realization. To some, like Cliff Hunt, the large shirt was obviously too small for Frank's stocky torso. Ken Lawson agrees.

[Ken Lawson]

Remember, the prosecutor in both trials hung his hat on that, that Jimmy Z. T shirt. This is Frank Pauline's T shirt. You have witnesses say that this is his Jimmy Z. T shirt, and it's at the scene. It has Dana's blood on it. You get to see pictures on the autopsy, the broken pelvic. And then the man rapes her. Right? And everybody's in the courtroom. And the guy sitting over there, somebody got to pay for this. And so that passion, that anger, right, can cloud a factual analysis that was like, I think either a. A medium. I mean, Frank was a huge dude, man. It should have been like, when I was older, it was so much blood on you. But he should have just tried to put it on. He probably couldn't get it around his head, you know what I mean? If it don't fit, right? But so there's physical evidence, like, this guy doesn't wear that size T shirt. I mean, huge guy. But that wasn't enough.

[Amanda Knox]

Under cross examination, Sharla Figueroa says Pauline told her he did it to help his stepbrother, John Gonzalves. Finally, Frank Pauline decides to take the stand. Still dressed in a nice shirt, tie, and glasses.

[Frank Pauline Jr.]

My name is Frank Raymond Pauline Jr. The truth is, I couldn't remember because I wasn't there.

[Mike Ortiz]

So when they came that first time, you weren't really ready for them?

[Frank Pauline Jr.]

No, because I only knew certain bits and pieces from the news, from what I see on tv, and from what people tell me.

[Amanda Knox]

Frank admits I am a liar on the stand. He says, I figured I could at least do that for my brother after all the stuff he done for me. Love is powerful, Cliff. That's all I can say. Love is powerful, man. In a passing shot furthering the family drama of it all, Frank Pauline also says that he was planning to implicate his half brother, Wayne Gonzales, as the fourth participant in the killing. Which, of course, lined up perfectly with what the police and prosecutors had been floating to. Having done so many not so great things already in his Young life. The possibility of Frank convincing the jury that this time he was a liar was a tall mountain to climb. He says on the stand, I may be dumb, but I didn't kill anybody. And yet, jurors deliberate for roughly 14 hours. And despite DNA and bite mark evidence failing to tie Frank to the murder, they find Frank Pauline guilty of murder in the second degree, kidnapping and sexual assault in the first degree. Jurors say his confession played a crucial role in his conviction. Now, despite the fact Ian and Sean did not confess ahead of their trial, with Frank now convicted, things aren't looking too good for them. Ian's trial is next, but he and their family struggle to find the right defense attorneys.

[Ken Lawson]

So his parents mortgaged their house and stuff like that and got him a very good paid attorney. And so what the prosecutor did was they gave him the witness list and used a lot of the attorney's former clients and said they're going to be witnesses. They never called him. Right. So now that attorney has to recuse. Well, by the time he recuses, he's done enough work to where he can't return. He's not returning the fee. So then they scrounge up more money, hire a second attorney. Prosecutor does it again.

[Amanda Knox]

I can tell you from experience that a high quality defense is expensive. Members of my family had to take out second mortgages and cash out retirement accounts to pay for my defense. I was fortunate that the lawyers my parents found were able to stand by me for eight years of trials. Ian, by contrast, was eventually left with no choice but to rely on a public defender.

[John Gonzalves]

This was just 100% malicious. Intentional. Intentional. They intentionally made sure I ended up with the worst attorney in the state of Hawaii. And how did they do that? They put 480 witnesses on the witness list to conflict every decent attorney out of the state of Hawaii. So I ended up with an attorney who was sleeping under the table during my trial. You know, in recess, we go to the back room, this guy goes under the table. When they call in, I kick them. Hey, let's go. It's time. It was bad.

[Amanda Knox]

Yeah.

[John Gonzalves]

He did nothing.

[John Ireland]

Yeah. When this first started going down, they gave me an awesome lawyer, Ira Lytel.

[John Gonzalves]

And there was nobody left.

[John Ireland]

Child court fucking attorney.

[Amanda Knox]

Thanks to the prosecution's meddling, the Schweitzer's case was hampered by one of the other leading causes of wrongful convictions, inadequate defense counsel. The Innocence project cites a 2022 study from the American Bar association showing that funding for public defenders would have to increase threefold in order to meet the standard of effective counsel guaranteed by the Sixth Amendment. Saddled with a poor defense, any defendant is more likely to take a plea deal. And the prosecution knows that. So just before the trial, Ian is offered a deal, One that is tempting compared to a potential sentence of life in prison, especially after witnessing Frank's fate. But Ian resists 20 years probation.

[John Gonzalves]

And then I rejected him. And then they came 10 years probation, and I told him I didn't do it.

[Ken Lawson]

I think most lawyers would have said, you know, take it. Even the end, the 10 or 20 years, it's like, well, I think I can beat this. The problem is, when we talk about the system, it's just not the prosecutors and the police that are at fault, right? It's the lawyer that's supposed to be, you know, making sure that the police and prosecutors are doing their job. If they haven't, then you gotta bring that to light.

[Amanda Knox]

Ian has no reason to agree he's innocent. I would have done the same. Of course, we were both naive in trusting that the justice system would deliver a just outcome. In his opening statement, prosecutors Lincoln Ishida and Charlene Iboshi paint a gruesome picture of the attack and describe Dana's attempt to fight back. While informant Mike Ortiz corroborates this, stating that Ian witnessed the struggle and said that there was blood everywhere. Ian's attorney, James Bivin, argues it's improbable. Here's a voiceover actor reading some of James Bivin's arguments from the trial transcripts.

[James Bivin]

John Gonsalves sees Frank, Pauline, Ian Schweitzer and Shawn and this fourth person at his mom's house that Christmas Eve. He's talking to them. He's standing five to six feet away from them. He sees no blood on Frank Pauline's hands, face, arms, body, clothes. He sees no blood on Ian, no blood on Shawn. If you believe Michael Ortiz's story that miss Ireland bit Frank's hand or arm and the blood from Frank was going all over the place, one would expect to find some kind of blood or injury on Frank's hand. The testimony of the medical people, all of the medical people in this case, and a view of the blood stained blue T shirt shows that miss Ireland was bleeding a lot. With that much blood, one would expect to see blood on Frank Pauline's body, hands, especially his pants. You would also expect to see blood in the Volkswagen.

[Amanda Knox]

The prosecution argues that it's obvious that the VW Bug was the vehicle that matched the treadmarks found at the scene and that Ian, Sean and Frank were together and using substances that day before they decided to kidnap, sexually assault and murder Dana Ireland. Ian's attorney mentions that the date of when Ian purchased the Volkswagen is fuzzy. And again, even today, Ian swears he didn't get that vehicle until after the incident. Ian's defense begs the jury to look closely at the evidence, as DNA still excludes the three men to think of John's motive in his accusations. And he calls out inconsistencies in the state's claims about how the VW supposedly hit the bike.

[John Gonzalves]

The, the intentional with the Volkswagen, the malicious, like, so dirty, like they knew it wasn't the car. The detectives, they knew it, like, based on the length, width, tire tread, you know, of the vehicle. But they were willing to go along with Charlie Naboshi and Lincoln Ashida's fake big lie story to get John Gonzalez the deal. The immunity. I don't know why it was so important for giving this guy immunity. You know what I mean? Instead of just not coming after us after the DNA didn't match and go find whose DNA it is before you come after anybody.

[Amanda Knox]

We tried to connect with Lincoln Ishida, but after going back and forth via email with him, he decided he didn't want to go on the record. Charlene Eboshi also did not answer any of our contact requests. So despite attempts to discredit the prosecution's narrative, Ian's attorney, James Bivens, appears to be disengaged throughout the trial, to say the least. Bivins also does not present key evidence or cross examine prosecution witnesses. Not uncommon with overworked and underprepared public defenders, leaving Ian vulnerable and undermined in his defense strategy.

[John Ireland]

It was our lawyers that found the DNA too.

[John Gonzalves]

Absolutely.

[Ken Lawson]

Yeah.

[John Ireland]

Was our lawyers that felt he wasn't.

[John Gonzalves]

Trying to solve it. He never did a murder trial.

[John Ireland]

No.

[John Gonzalves]

But there was nobody else because they conflict them all out.

[Ken Lawson]

And so when you look at the ineffective assistance to council, like I said, that lawyer didn't present the evidence. Right. The evidence of the tire tr. I mean, the police department took the measurements, so. Right. And they have to admit these are the measurements we took. And if you match these measurements up with the Volkswagen, there's no match. There's no way it could be a match.

[Amanda Knox]

Right.

[Ken Lawson]

That was never presented to the jury.

[Amanda Knox]

Coming up on three, they re indicted.

[John Gonzalves]

Us on a jailhouse informant.

[Ian Schweitzer]

Yeah.

[Ken Lawson]

So back then, rape, the sex crime had a statute of limitations. And so at the time that the DNA came, came back and they had it dismissed, I think it was six months left on the statute of limitations for them to recharge with the rape. And so if you go back to those documents, you'll see that the prosecutor's getting desperate. So now the indictments are dismissed. Prosecutors calling Sean's lawyer, trying to come to the grand jury and tell on end. I mean, Shawn and his lawyer, like there's nothing to tell. Right. So finally, Gonzales John contacts Ortiz.

[John Gonzalves]

Well, jailhouse informant is stronger than DNA. Mike Ortiz had a child with John Gonzalez wife in high school. This guy is a known jailhouse informant. And that's the prosecutor's number one man.

[Amanda Knox]

That's next in chapter five, which you can listen to next week.

[Delia D'Ambra]

My new super Smart Samsung Galaxy S25 Ultra keeps me a step ahead, thanks to now Brief with Galaxy AI. It shows me my daily appointments at a glance so I can focus on my passion. Posing my pups to recreate French paintings. Bruno, you look like a princess.

[Samsung Galaxy]

Galaxy S25 Ultra, the AI companion that streamlines your day. So you can do you get [e-mail] displays daily select info from select apps may require Internet connection. Galaxy AI features by Samsung free through 2025 and require Samsung account login.

[Amanda Knox]

Hi, this is Steve Buscemi. You know the actor. Well, now I'm an actor and podcast host. From Piece of Work Entertainment and Campside Media in association with Olive Productions comes Big Time, an Apple original podcast. Each episode follows story of one misfit with big dreams who isn't afraid to bend a few rules or take a shortcut to get there. Well, who steals bees? I was duped.

[John Gonzalves]

I shoot you in the leg.

[Amanda Knox]

This is big time. Follow and listen on Apple podcasts.