Welcome To Hutchinson

Summary

Welcome to Hutchinson – Episode Summary

Podcast Title: Three
Host/Author: Wavland
Episode: Welcome To Hutchinson
Release Date: December 6, 2024

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Introduction

In the gripping episode “Welcome to Hutchinson,” host Andrea Dunlop delves deep into the harrowing story of Jo Troy (formerly known as Jordan Hope) and their tumultuous relationship with their mother, Donna. Set against the backdrop of Hutchinson, Minnesota, this episode uncovers the layers of abuse, manipulation, and the struggle for healing that Jo has endured over the past decade.

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Opening Warning and Emotional Messages

The episode begins with a solemn warning about the sensitive content related to child abuse, urging listeners experiencing similar issues to seek professional help.

• Andrea Dunlop [00:00]: "Before we begin, a quick warning that in this show we discuss child abuse and this content may be difficult for some listeners."

Jo Troy’s heartfelt voice messages set an emotional tone, reflecting their pain and desire for reconciliation with their estranged mother.

• Jo Troy [00:20]: "Hi mom, it's Jo. I hope you can hear me."
• Jo Troy [00:25]: "I wish you could see me."
• Jo Troy [01:23]: "I love you so much. I just had to have boundaries to take care of myself too..."

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Jo's Complicated Relationship with Donna

Andrea introduces Jo’s complex relationship with their mother, Donna, highlighting the psychological scars left by years of abuse and manipulation.

• Andrea Dunlop [01:13]: "Pulling away from Donna as an adult has been one of many steps that Jo has taken to attempt to save themselves from the lasting psychological damage of their mother's abuse."

Jo’s presence at Donna’s side during her declining health signifies a paradoxical mix of unresolved emotions and lingering love.

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Journey to Hutchinson

The narrative transitions to Jo’s hometown, Hutchinson, Minnesota, a small rural town that plays a pivotal role in Jo’s story. Andrea, along with producer Mariah Gossett and friend Bree, explores the environment where Jo’s childhood unfolded.

• Bree [05:28]: "I lived in Hutchinson my whole life, which is like a very small town in Minnesota. Very secluded and isolated just as a town itself."

As they navigate the town’s landscape, memories resurfacing from Jo’s past begin to paint a vivid picture of life under Donna’s oppressive care.

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Reconnecting with the Past

A significant moment occurs when Jo reunites with Jen Becker, a first-grade teacher who noticed Jo’s struggles during their childhood. Their heartfelt reunion sheds light on the unnoticed signs of Jo’s suffering.

• Jen Becker [09:32]: "I remember you being a very sweet, sweet kid. I remember you being kind of sickly."
• Jordain Hope [16:34]: "I didn't know that anybody in school knew."

These conversations reveal the silent battles Jo faced and the inadequate interventions by those around them.

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Donna’s Dual Persona

Through interviews and personal anecdotes, the episode exposes Donna’s ability to maintain a façade of a caring mother and active community member, while simultaneously inflicting harm on Jo.

• Bree [20:53]: "I remember riding in the car with her to the liquor store, and her having me sit in the car..."
• Jordan Hope [30:22]: "My mom had a clear Gatorade bottle all the time. That had vodka in it."

Donna’s struggles with addiction and mental health are intricately tied to her abusive behavior, creating a toxic environment for Jo.

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Impact of Small-Town Dynamics

The episode critically examines how Hutchinson’s tight-knit community dynamics either failed to protect Jo or inadvertently perpetuated the silence around Donna’s abuse.

• Andrea Dunlop [35:34]: "The comfort of living in a small town... is that people are supposed to look out for each other. Why didn't someone do something about Donna?"

Jo and Bree reflect on how the insular nature of Hutchinson contributed to the ongoing abuse and Jo’s feelings of isolation.

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Healing and Moving Forward

Despite the painful memories, Jo’s journey toward healing is a testament to resilience. Andrea highlights the importance of storytelling in reclaiming one’s narrative and finding solace.

• Andrea Dunlop [02:40]: "This is really that story of what human beings who have been through horrible things are able to become as adults and of the healing that can happen."

Jo’s involvement with Munchausen Support and their ongoing efforts to rebuild their life underscore the episode’s message of hope and recovery.

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Conclusion

“Welcome to Hutchinson” offers a poignant exploration of Jo Troy’s past, the pervasive impact of abusive relationships, and the challenges of healing within a restrictive community. Through heartfelt interviews and honest reflections, the episode not only recounts a personal tragedy but also serves as a broader commentary on the systemic failures in addressing child abuse.

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Notable Quotes

• Jo Troy [01:52]: "Did you know before, just now, that Jen had ever made a report about you?"
• Jen Becker [12:03]: "It just felt forced... I was just, like, doubting myself all the time."
• Bree [28:43]: "I was just always there."
• Andrea Dunlop [38:05]: "Everyone loves them. But before this trip, I know that Joe believed the opposite."

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Final Thoughts

This episode is a deeply moving account that sheds light on the hidden struggles within seemingly ordinary lives. For those unfamiliar with “Three,” this summary provides a comprehensive overview of the episode’s key discussions, insights, and emotional depth, making it accessible and engaging for new listeners.

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Credits

Produced by: Andrea Dunlop
Senior Producer and Editor: Mariah Gossett
Associate Producer: Greta Stromquist
Music by: Jonny Nicholson, Joel Schupach, Jason Shaw
Special Thanks: Jen Becker, Brianna Garrity, and the residents of Hutchinson

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Support the Podcast

To support “Three,” subscribe on Apple Podcasts or join Patreon for early access, ad-free episodes, and exclusive content. Your support helps us continue telling these important stories.

Transcript

[Andrea Dunlop]

Before we begin, a quick warning that in this show we discuss child abuse and this content may be difficult for some listeners. If you or anyone you know is a victim or survivor of medical child abuse, Please go to munchausen support.com to connect with professionals who can help.

[Jo Troy]

Hi mom, it's Jo. I hope you can hear me.

[Jordan Hope]

I wish you could see me.

[Jo Troy]

I'm so sorry. I wish you called me.

[Andrea Dunlop]

In the spring of 2022, Jordan Hope made the nearly nine hour drive from Missouri to Minnesota to say goodbye to their mother, who we'll be calling Donna. Donna's health had been declining and it had taken a sharp turn when she'd lapsed into a coma. Joe's sister called and said, I think this is it.

[Jo Troy]

I just want to see you one more time. Well, I see you. I want you to see me. I forgive you. I'm sorry. I'm sorry that you were hurting so much. I forgive you. Okay? Forgive you.

[Andrea Dunlop]

It had been a long time since Joe had spoken to their mother. But even after years of near estrangement, Joe still wanted to be by their mother's side at the end.

[Jo Troy]

And I love you so much. I just had to have boundaries of all to take care of myself too, you know? But I never stopped thinking about you, wondering how you were hoping you get better. My life is really good, Mom. Can you hear me in there? Can you feel me? I'm mad at you for not saying goodbye. It wasn't very nice of you. I think after everything, you owed me a goodbye.

[Andrea Dunlop]

To say that Joe and Donna have a complicated relationship is an understatement. Pulling away from Donna as an adult has been one of many steps that Jo has taken to attempt to save themselves from the lasting psychological damage of their mother's abuse. And yet, to be here at their mom's side was also a step because even the truth about their mom, as bad as it was, did not extinguish the love. But like everything with Donna, even her death was not what it seemed. I'm Andrea Dunlop. Welcome to season four of Nobody Should Believe Me. This season we will be following Jordan and Hope as they unravel the many mysteries of their childhood. If you are a longtime listener of our show, you'll likely recognize Jo Troy for Jordan as they have done several.

[Mariah Gossett]

Previous interviews with us.

[Andrea Dunlop]

Jo is not only a friend of the show, they are my dear friend in real life. We serve together on the American Professional Society on the Abuse of Children's Munchausen by Proxy committee, and Joe and I also work together for Munchausen Support, which is the only nonprofit organization in the country dedicated to helping Munchausen by proxy survivors and families. And I think getting to know Joe so well over the past few years and getting to hear so much of their story has really given me a sense of what's possible. And I feel like often these stories, when we're hearing them in the news, they drop off after the court case, and you never find out what becomes of the child at the center of it. And this is really that story of what human beings who have been through horrible things are able to become as adults and of the healing that can happen. I think Jo's story can tell us a lot about the process of healing and the process of building a life after you've been through something unimaginable. A note about Jo at the they are trans and non binary. Joe interchanges what pronouns they use, but prefers they them pronouns. So that's what we'll use. But just a heads up that some of our interview subjects use she her pronouns when discussing their relationship to Joe or when they're talking about Joe's childhood.

[Jordan Hope]

Yeah, you'll see, we'll be like driving like 60, and then it'll say 35 for like two seconds and then it'll be back to like 60.

[Andrea Dunlop]

We begin our story in Joe's hometown of Hutchinson, Minnesota.

[Mariah Gossett]

What's the vibe of a Minnesota small town? Cause I feel like small towns are.

[Andrea Dunlop]

Kind of the same everywhere, but then.

[Mariah Gossett]

They'Re like, okay, just church.

[Jordan Hope]

I mean, once you see Hutchinson, at least it used to be like on.

[Andrea Dunlop]

A chilly February day where it is mercifully not dumping snow, Joe and I, along with my producer Mariah, drive out to Hutchinson, a small rural town outside Minneapolis. The streets are lined with all of these huge trees that are barren now in the winter, but you can imagine them making this beautiful leafy canopy in the warmer months. And there are rows and rows of small Craftsman houses and, as Jo said, a lot of churches. Jo has come along on this journey with us bravely to do something that I feel like you mostly see people doing in movies returning to their hometown to try to get to the bottom of their often confusing childhood memories, to return literally, in Joe's case, to the scene of the crime.

[Bree]

I lived in Hutchinson my whole life, which is like a very small town in Minnesota. Like, the next nearest town was probably like 30 minutes away. So very secluded and isolated just as a town itself.

[Andrea Dunlop]

Like, what are some of your earliest memories?

[Bree]

Hmm, that's a really hard question. I feel like, to answer, I feel like a lot of memories, I just were repressed for so long, and I didn't even really get until seeing my records. But some of my earliest memories would be being in the hospital, sick a lot, missing school, not being able to, like, go out and play with friends. But then also I have a lot of memories of playing with friends and a lot of memories of getting McDonald's with my mom.

[Andrea Dunlop]

We all misremember our childhoods to one degree or another, but Jo's is a different story. Because their history is so obscured by their mother's manipulations, her interconnected webs of deceit, not only around Jo's health, but around every facet of their lives together. The idea of unraveling it all is beyond daunting. So we've come to round up some witnesses.

[Mariah Gossett]

This is. Yeah, this is very rural.

[Jordan Hope]

Yep, this is it. Cornfields. Oh, yeah, yeah. When I was little, we would, like, play hide and seek and, like, hide, like in the cornfields, which I think is, like, dangerous, but we weren't going that deep. So this is like the main street. You hit everything in Hutch down this street.

[Andrea Dunlop]

Okay, you guys have a target.

[Mariah Gossett]

Look at that.

[Jordan Hope]

We do have a target that was there. It wasn't as popular as Walmart, though.

[Andrea Dunlop]

So what is. Menards.

[Bree]

Menards.

[Andrea Dunlop]

Menards.

[Bree]

I really.

[Jordan Hope]

Please put that in.

[Andrea Dunlop]

Okay. So obviously, I did not grow up in the Midwest. The drive into Hutchinson is beautiful, but pretty sparse. There are all these lakes glittering under the winter sun and lots of empty cornfields. Very few signs of life. This really is the middle of nowhere.

[Jordan Hope]

I went to this church for a.

[Bree]

While for a youth group as a kid. And then one day they said, today we're going to speak in tongues. And they said, I think I won't go here anymore.

[Jordan Hope]

I went to that church across the street.

[Mariah Gossett]

Another church.

[Andrea Dunlop]

Not exaggerating. As we drove around, there was a church on almost every corner.

[Jordan Hope]

Oh, yeah, we love a church. Hmm. Another church.

[Andrea Dunlop]

Joe lived in Hutchinson for their entire childhood. And driving through the place, it looks like a sweet, nice place to raise kids, honestly. And, you know, we have a pretty strong archetype of what places like this are supposed to mean In America, small towns are supposed to be the places where people look out for one another. Or alternatively, some see these as places that are not so tolerant of outsiders. Our first stop is the elementary school that Joe went to as a kid. We pull up outside a few minutes early to a very chaotic and familiar scene as school is letting out and a long line of SUVs and sedans Snakes around the block with parents waiting to pick up their kids.

[Jen Becker]

I shouldn't generalize, but a lot of people who live here grow up and stay here. They marry each other and, you know, then, you know what I mean. So a lot of our teachers are homegrown. That's why I call them homegrown Hutchinson people. So that was. I felt like the town was kind. I don't want to rip on Hutchinson, but I felt like it was a little clicky. Hey, how are you?

[Jordan Hope]

I haven't seen you in a long time.

[Bree]

Hello.

[Jen Becker]

Nice to see you. Hi, I'm Jen.

[Andrea Dunlop]

Hi, nice to meet you.

[Mariah Gossett]

I'm Mariah.

[Brianna Garrity]

Nice to meet you.

[Jordan Hope]

Can I give you a hug?

[Mariah Gossett]

Yes, of course you can. Jo.

[Andrea Dunlop]

Jen Becker, or Mrs. Becker, as Joe remembers her, was then and is still a first grade teacher in Hutchinson. The two hadn't spoken in well over a decade, but their reunion was warm.

[Jen Becker]

I'm sure it looks very, very different.

[Jordan Hope]

I always felt so safe.

[Bree]

I remember as a kid, my memory.

[Jordan Hope]

Was like, you know, kid brains are interesting. So I was like, Mrs. Becker is really pretty. And that was like the biggest thing I remembered about you.

[Bree]

She's so pretty and she's so nice.

[Jordan Hope]

Well, like, I don't know if you remember anything about me.

[Jen Becker]

I remember you were. You were quiet and you always looked super tired. I remember that. I was like a little worried about you. So I brought you. We had like a. We have a. It's called something different now, but we had a team that. Where I would. I don't bring you to it, but I bring your case to them to talk about you because I was worried about that. You seem so tired and it was like a little bit harder for you to concentrate sometimes. I don't remember academically anything, but I remember you being a very sweet, sweet kid. I remember you were kind of sickly. Your mom was very super mom. Kind of. She was. Did she like run the gymnastics program here? Yes, I remember that. I remember her saying you were going to be like a superstar gymnast, but she would come in here and kind of be mama. Like she'd act like mama to everybody in our room, like the mom of the year kind of thing. That's what I remember about her. And. But. And I remember her always being concerned. Cause she said you were like ill or sick or they were trying to figure out what was wrong or whatever. She was more of the I'm like such a role model for everybody kind of thing. And I'm not putting Your mom down tried to make herself look really like a. Yeah, this super mom. I always had, like, a little bit of a uncomfortable feeling about it, but there was never anything concrete that I could do. I was, like, probably in my second, third year of teaching. So, you know, I'm just, like, doubting myself.

[Jordan Hope]

And, of course.

[Jen Becker]

So I was just kind of like, well, it doesn't feel right.

[Andrea Dunlop]

What Mrs. Becker says about her memories of Joe's mom sounds extremely familiar to me. In interviewing people about these cases, they frequently describe a bad feeling that they just can't quite put their finger on. Mom seems involved, loving even, but something is just off.

[Bree]

So I feel like a lot of memories, I just were repressed for so long, and I didn't even really get until seeing my records.

[Andrea Dunlop]

One of Jo's earliest memories really belies the distance between their mother as they experienced her and how she tried to present herself to the outside world. Jo doesn't remember a time when they weren't sick, and their mom was often pushing them into the spotlight in one way or another. One of these memories is being a state finalist in Minnesota's American Petite Princess pageant at age 4.

[Bree]

I have very faint memories of it. I'm pretty positive my church sponsored me and paid for it. At the time, I was supposedly really sick, so I'm not really sure. It's a little odd to have someone that's super sick all of a sudden wearing this, like, really pretty dress and putting on a show for people. But that was kind of. I think the theme of my life was, one day I was dying, and the next day I was doing back walkovers across the grass. So it definitely was fitting. My mom, I remember I. I guess I, like, grabbed the curling iron, like, right before we went on and burned my hand pretty bad. And I remember, like, crying and, like, screaming because I was in pain and it hurt. And my mom was like, you need to stop. You need to go out there and perform. So that's, like, one of my first memories, I would say, of where, like, it was, like, the opposite, where my mom didn't want me to be sick. Where, like, me being in pain was not convenient, and it was not the time for it because it was gonna actually take attention away from her. And so I had to just act like I wasn't in pain and go and perform and do my thing. And I ended up getting runner up at the pageant because my mom. There was a girl that was too shy and wasn't gonna go out, and my mom ended up helping her. So she went out and then she won. And I still have a little bit of a grudge because I was supposed to get to go to Disney World, but since I got runner up, I didn't get to go to Disney World. And my mom ended up, ironically, winning Best Mom Award. And that I remember.

[Jordan Hope]

Like, she always made a big deal of it.

[Bree]

Of course. It was, like, a really big thing because it proved that she was this great, loving, caring mom.

[Andrea Dunlop]

In the beauty pageant, they had a Best mom category.

[Jordan Hope]

Yeah.

[Bree]

So sometimes I really do think back, and I'm like, did. Was that a real thing? Like, is that what the award really said? Because that is kind of like an interesting. Like, what kind of beauty pageant was this? I don't know.

[Jordan Hope]

So who's to say?

[Bree]

That's what I remember. And I remember my mom making a big deal about it. And I remember me being really annoyed because I didn't get to go to Disney World, and she didn't care because she got Best Mom Award.

[Andrea Dunlop]

In Joe's memory, their mom successfully fooled everyone as thoroughly as she'd fooled those pageant judges. And it's only right now, in the midst of their conversation with Mrs. Becker, the Joe realizes maybe their mother's abuse wasn't so well hidden after all. Did you know before, just now, that Jen had ever made a report about you?

[Jordan Hope]

No, I had no idea. I didn't know. Ooh, I'm gonna get a loan.

[Mariah Gossett]

Wash.

[Jordan Hope]

I don't think I knew that anybody in school knew. I. My interpretation, not in first or second grade or third or even any of that, but probably, like, fourth grade on my interpretation, was that everyone thought that I was faking illnesses and that I just wanted attention, and I was just this, like, kind of bad, rough around the edges kid. I didn't. Yeah, I didn't. It didn't seem like anybody had any idea.

[Jen Becker]

Mm. Yeah, well, it was just, like I said, like a. I don't know what. It was like a feeling. It just. With your mom, it just didn't feel right. It just felt forced, I guess. I don't know what the word would be. You were probably one of my very first kids that I did a report on, so. And like, I. Like I said, I was. I was, like, young. I was, like, in my fourth year of teaching or whatever, and you doubt yourself all the time. And I see things and I have inklings about things, but I can't really. What can? Like, legally. What can I do besides do a report or whatever? Yeah, I can't go to your house and, like, Take you out of the house.

[Jordan Hope]

Yeah, I think we talk about that so much. This, everything you're speaking to. I know you were like, I don't.

[Bree]

Know that I have much to say.

[Jordan Hope]

But like, literally this has been one of the most helpful conversations I think I've had. Well, that's good. Yeah, I think that there's so much everything you're speaking to speaks to the systemic issues. And I think whether or not I was like one of your first reports.

[Bree]

Or even if I had been your.

[Jordan Hope]

Hundredth, like you said, there's only so much that you could. And the reality is you are still a reason that I'm sitting here today. You were that safe enough person in my life at that time that helped me survive that year of my life.

[Andrea Dunlop]

Jo and Mrs. Becker share goodbyes and we walk back out into the empty hallways of the elementary school. They're full of adorable, wonky artwork and kid sized chairs and sinks.

[Unnamed Speaker]

How was that for you? It was so good.

[Bree]

Had no idea about the reports.

[Jordan Hope]

That is like, I feel like it.

[Bree]

Makes me mad all over again.

[Jordan Hope]

Like, so many people knew. So many people knew. Yeah, it's weird.

[Bree]

I think it's easier thinking that nobody knew, thinking that, like, I just hit.

[Jordan Hope]

It really well versus being like, no.

[Bree]

Everybody knew and still chose to treat you poorly. I mean, not like those specific people necessarily, but.

[Jordan Hope]

Yeah.

[Andrea Dunlop]

For Jo, remembering their childhood can feel like putting together a puzzle that's constantly rearranging itself. Jo thought their mom had everyone fooled in part because plenty of other adults seemed to trust her. Tell us about Donna, just as a person.

[Bree]

Yeah, she, when I was little, was, I would say, pretty well respected. Like I said, she taught Sunday school. So at my church, which I think she just kind of did things wherever I was gonna be. She also had a daycare. She had kids coming over to our house all the time that she supposedly cared for and things like that. Also growing up, weirdly, we always had people living with us. One of my sister's friends pretty much grew up with us for a very long time, was living at our home. Some of my cousins stayed with us for a really long time, which very odd now when I look back at it, but she always seemed to be around kids, taking care of people. When I was pretty young, she started coaching gymnastics, which I was a part of, and she did that, I mean, until I was a teenager. So she did that for a very long time. And a lot of people really, like I said, respected her, really liked her. And then on like the flip side, I remember riding in the car with her to the liquor store, and her having me sit in the car, and I would sit there, and when people would be walking out of the liquor store, I'd roll my window down and.

[Jordan Hope]

I'd yell, jesus loves you.

[Bree]

And then I'd roll my window back up and I'd duck down because I was kind of scared. But I remember, like, that was this fun little game that I would play right outside the liquor store to all the people. I had no idea what they were doing or who they were or what was going on. I thought, they're just running in for errands. I didn't really understand what alcohol even was at that point. I can't really remember many people not liking her or being afraid of her or not trusting their kids around her When I was really little, that changed a lot as I got older.

[Andrea Dunlop]

One of the people who spent a lot of time around Jo and their mom as a kid was Jo's friend, Bree.

[Bree]

Yeah. No, I'm really excited to see her.

[Jordan Hope]

Yeah, me and Bree were, like, best friends. Pretty much, like, eighth grade through senior year. We were, like, inseparable. People would always joke that we were, like, dating because we were just always, always together. Yeah, I spent a lot of time at her house. She spent a lot of time at my house.

[Andrea Dunlop]

We pull up to a house with a red barn next to it and a frozen lake behind it. Walking into the house feels like a Minnesota Pinterest board come to life. There are little signs everywhere with funny sayings, many involving puns. And there's a cookbook on display with hot dish recipes. There's kid paraphernalia everywhere. And a very sweet, sleepy dog who curls up in his bed after giving Joe, Mariah, and me a thorough inspection.

[Bree]

Oh, my God, she's just so loving.

[Jen Becker]

Yeah.

[Bree]

Oh, smell, smell, smell, smell.

[Andrea Dunlop]

Brie and Jo met as kids at their church confirmation, but didn't really become friends until middle school. Bri would eventually go on to marry her high school sweetheart, and she still lives in Hutchinson.

[Mariah Gossett]

Just tell us a little bit about Hutch from your perspective.

[Brianna Garrity]

Um, small town, lots of drama.

[Andrea Dunlop]

Watching Jo with Bri is incredibly sweet because, like we all do around people we grew up with, they morph back into the teenagers they once were as they giggle and reminisce.

[Brianna Garrity]

Yeah. Everybody knew everybody. Everybody knew everybody's business.

[Unnamed Speaker]

What was that? Where did you hang out? What would you do? What was the draw?

[Brianna Garrity]

I just go to, like, Walmart and hang out.

[Jordan Hope]

That's what I said. I was like, Walmart.

[Bree]

That's Walmart.

[Brianna Garrity]

That was, like. Yeah, that was the place. Yeah. Literally just the stupidest things. I don't know.

[Jordan Hope]

It's just the only thing to do.

[Brianna Garrity]

Small town shit. I don't know. We're driving around.

[Jordan Hope]

I was just gonna say.

[Bree]

Yeah.

[Jordan Hope]

We drove around for hours.

[Brianna Garrity]

Yes. Doing literally nothing.

[Jordan Hope]

Literally nothing. But we would always, like, be in the car with the boys, and they're, like, whipping.

[Bree]

Yeah. Whippity shitties, like, all over.

[Brianna Garrity]

Yes. Donuts. Yes. I knew that was a Midwestern thing.

[Andrea Dunlop]

I was, like, whipping shitties.

[Jordan Hope]

Whipping shitties.

[Brianna Garrity]

Yeah. We'd, like, sit on Main street in the Genesis parking lot, just, like, do stupid stuff.

[Andrea Dunlop]

Bri knew Donna well because in addition to being her best friend's mom, she was also their cheerleading coach.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Camille, talk a little bit more about, like, cheer. What was cheerleading like? Did y'all do competitions? Was it just, like, for games and stuff?

[Brianna Garrity]

Just competition. Not in school. Hutch Ban or not band. But they got rid of cheer, like, right before we. Well, you were in it.

[Andrea Dunlop]

Yeah.

[Jordan Hope]

You started cheer in sixth grade and did it. And then in eighth grade or something. I want to say we had this coach that we, like, went to our homecoming game, and at, like, right before the game started, our coach, like, walked out on us because supposedly we were bullying her daughter, which didn't happen. It was so weird. But so they, like, literally, she, like, walked out on us, and we weren't able to cheer the homecoming game, which at the time felt like a big deal. A big deal. We had, like, our routine, like, all these things, and there was, like, a cop, like, standing there, like, all these. It was, like, very dramatic, you know, Hutch drama.

[Brianna Garrity]

And so then Hutch is dramatic.

[Jordan Hope]

So then my mom was like, oh, I can be the coach. That's her.

[Brianna Garrity]

Went downhill there. And then.

[Bree]

That is.

[Jordan Hope]

Right. So then my mom started coaching, and it became an all star team. So we no long did anything.

[Brianna Garrity]

Nothing through the school. Yeah. Cause you guys were, like, the Hutch Tigers.

[Jordan Hope]

Yeah. What was?

[Brianna Garrity]

I don't know.

[Jordan Hope]

We were the Midwest All Stars.

[Brianna Garrity]

Yeah. When we became competition. Yes.

[Jordan Hope]

Our colors were teal and zebra.

[Mariah Gossett]

We were like.

[Brianna Garrity]

When we would do the competitions, we'd be, like, the only one. So we'd win, which is cool and all, but we'd be competing against nobody. Like, I don't know if we just sucked or if there was just, like, we were in such a small, like, rank.

[Jordan Hope]

I feel like my mom, like, had to have, like, purposely put us in.

[Brianna Garrity]

A place so we could always win.

[Jordan Hope]

Yes. Cause she would be like, you guys got number one.

[Brianna Garrity]

Yes. And we'd always get number one, but.

[Jordan Hope]

Like drop every single stunt and like do so horribly.

[Brianna Garrity]

I feel like we were not very professional competition cheerleaders.

[Mariah Gossett]

Like the Bad News Bears are cheerleaders.

[Andrea Dunlop]

Yeah.

[Brianna Garrity]

It's just like so embarrassing.

[Bree]

So embarrassing.

[Mariah Gossett]

You guys have a. You guys have a very big trophy in this picture.

[Bree]

Yeah, we got first winners.

[Jordan Hope]

We were really good.

[Brianna Garrity]

We were winners. We were really proud of ourselves.

[Mariah Gossett]

We're going to have to look up.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Like what the brackets were. Cuz it was probably something like, of like town size, team size. And it was like you could find.

[Jordan Hope]

A way to then like, oh, she found a way.

[Bree]

She found a way.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Interesting. So was. Was Donna being drunk at practice? Sometimes. You remember from that time?

[Brianna Garrity]

Oh, 100%.

[Andrea Dunlop]

Brie pulls up a photo and these uniforms are exactly as spectacular as they sound. Bri and Jo clearly had a lot of fun together growing up, but Bri glimpsed the dark side of Jo's home life too.

[Mariah Gossett]

What are your memories of what Jo's house was like?

[Brianna Garrity]

We would mostly stay in her room or do stuff in the kitchen, but then for the most part, we'd be outside. Like they had like a playground. I know we were a little bit old for that, but whatever. And then really just like go to the neighbor's house and like walk around and. Yeah, we never really like.

[Jordan Hope]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Brianna Garrity]

We were like hung out in the house a lot, but at the same time, not really. You try to avoid her mom at all costs.

[Jordan Hope]

Oh, you're like unlocking. Do you remember? Oh my God. Do you remember when we were like washing dishes and my mom was like, drunk, but we were like so afraid of her. So then I made the song.

[Bree]

Do you remember the song?

[Brianna Garrity]

I don't remember the song, but I remember the song.

[Bree]

I don't remember washing dishes with Brie. It's just my friend and me doing the something very carefully because if I.

[Jordan Hope]

Wake up my mom, she'll drop the F bomb.

[Bree]

Then I'll have to run till I see the bright sun. If she wakes up, she'll look and say sup? And then something, something bad would happen.

[Brianna Garrity]

Yeah, don't wake up mom.

[Bree]

Don't wake up mom.

[Brianna Garrity]

She was usually drunk in the living room and that's where she like stayed the whole time that I'd be over. She never did anything.

[Mariah Gossett]

So you didn't. Sounds like you didn't really have any interactions with her, was you?

[Brianna Garrity]

Yes and no. Like, I'd like, I was very cordial with her. I Think she liked me. And we would. Like, I could go in and talk and, like, she'd be my mom, like, whatever. But I never really had, like, a whole lot of interaction. I really just went over there just to hang out.

[Jordan Hope]

Yeah. She was really nice to you. Like, she really loved you.

[Brianna Garrity]

I was just always there.

[Mariah Gossett]

Jo, do you remember, like, was there a difference with your mom's behavior when there were other people there versus when it was just you and her?

[Jordan Hope]

Um, I mean, definitely. I think that was, like, always. I mean, I think Bree probably saw.

[Brianna Garrity]

Like, I saw some. She got really mad sometimes where it was like, you shouldn't be here.

[Jordan Hope]

Mm.

[Brianna Garrity]

But, like, around adults, she was a lot nicer.

[Jordan Hope]

Mm.

[Brianna Garrity]

And normal. She tried to pretend to be normal.

[Jordan Hope]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. She'd definitely play like that.

[Bree]

Like, I'm so happy and loving and kind.

[Andrea Dunlop]

Yes.

[Brianna Garrity]

I'm such a good mom.

[Jordan Hope]

I'm such a good mom.

[Andrea Dunlop]

There were other signs that something was amiss in Joe's house, but I definitely.

[Brianna Garrity]

Remember the kitchen meds. There's so many.

[Andrea Dunlop]

Just, like, bottles of pills everywhere.

[Brianna Garrity]

Yeah.

[Jordan Hope]

All over the counters and, like, in the cupboards where, like, cups were supposed to be.

[Bree]

Not normal.

[Brianna Garrity]

Not normal at all.

[Mariah Gossett]

At that time, was your mom claiming that you and or her had a specific chronic illness?

[Jordan Hope]

Um, I mean, I had severe asthma.

[Brianna Garrity]

Yeah. Oh, my gosh. Yeah. I forgot about that.

[Jordan Hope]

Cause she would always, like, at cheer. Like, would be like, joe, you can't run or you can't do this cause you have asthma. And I'd be like, I'm fine.

[Bree]

I'm fine.

[Jordan Hope]

Yeah. And then she'd be like, use your inhaler. And I'd be like, no, I'm not gonna. Like, I just have to breathe. Yes. Cause I thought I was, like, invincible. I thought I was, like, beating asthma. Cause I thought I had it, but I didn't.

[Bree]

No, I didn't.

[Jordan Hope]

I remember my mom had a clear. Like a Gatorade bottle all the time.

[Brianna Garrity]

Yeah.

[Jordan Hope]

That had vodka in it.

[Brianna Garrity]

Yep.

[Jordan Hope]

And it would just be sitting, like, on the back thing. And she would always go and just take a drink. And then she had these, like, these, like, breath strips or something that she would, like, take after that.

[Brianna Garrity]

Oh, yeah. Like, the clear. Not clear things, but. Yeah. The little strips.

[Jordan Hope]

Yeah. These weird little. You, like, put it on your tong.

[Brianna Garrity]

The water bottle or whatever she would put it in was, like, everywhere.

[Bree]

Everywhere.

[Brianna Garrity]

She'd bring that everywhere.

[Jordan Hope]

I always had that Gatorade bottle. And I remember one time as a kid, I was like, mom, can I have a drink? Of water. And she was like, no, don't touch that. And I was, like, so confused. Cause I was like, I don't.

[Brianna Garrity]

Okay.

[Jordan Hope]

Like, why? Yeah, like, why?

[Andrea Dunlop]

Jo thought their mom was better at disguising her many issues than she actually was. But the fact that she was pretty much constantly intoxicated appears to have been an open secret.

[Brianna Garrity]

I remember, like, the last, like, year or two of being friends. Like, it seemed like more abuse was going on. And, like, I know I talked to my mom about it and was like, we need to get her out of there. Blah, blah, blah. And I know at one point I was over, and we were like, we need to record your mom. So, like, being drunk and stuff, and the things she would say to her. But I guess, like, that was more towards the end.

[Mariah Gossett]

When you stayed towards the end. Like, around what age?

[Brianna Garrity]

I was, like, 16. I don't know when we, like, stopped being as close. Probably after I started dating Max. Yeah, I lost.

[Jordan Hope]

Yeah.

[Brianna Garrity]

Lost touch with a lot of people. Yeah, probably, like, 16, 15. 16.

[Jordan Hope]

Did you. Do you feel like you knew, like.

[Bree]

At the time that, like, not all.

[Jordan Hope]

Of it was real or that it, like, seemed dramatized?

[Brianna Garrity]

Yeah, like, but I would have never said anything because, like, I didn't know anything. Yeah. I feel like when it came out that it was all a lie, I was like, yeah, I knew that, obviously.

[Mariah Gossett]

How did you find out about online.

[Brianna Garrity]

Like, when you did the story, like, the Doctors. Yes. That's when it. That's when I was like, oh, okay. Yeah, that makes sense.

[Andrea Dunlop]

Jo first went public with their story on social media prior to making an appearance on the CBS TV show the Doctors. We will get into that in a later episode. But this was the first time many people in Jo's life heard about the abuse that they had endured.

[Mariah Gossett]

So you weren't shocked it made things kind of fall into place for you?

[Brianna Garrity]

Yeah, definitely. None of it shocked me. Yeah, none of it shocked my mom either. Which is sad because I feel like my mom didn't really, like, even know the full extent of it, but, like, she knew mom and. Yeah.

[Mariah Gossett]

Did you know anything about Chosen by.

[Andrea Dunlop]

Proxy before watching that?

[Brianna Garrity]

Mm. Mm.

[Jen Becker]

Nope.

[Brianna Garrity]

I don't think I've ever even heard of it before. Before that. So. Yeah.

[Unnamed Speaker]

What did it feel like to kind of have that confirmation that you were like, oh, my intuition was kind of correct over that time.

[Brianna Garrity]

It felt really shitty. I feel like I wish that I had known more then. Obviously, I was a teenager, so there's not much I could have done, but I felt really bad Because I feel like there were signs and we knew things, and I feel like we were trying to, like, help, but I feel bad that there was no way to help, really, and that you were a part of it for so long, and I was a part of watching it for so long. Yeah. Shitty.

[Unnamed Speaker]

What does that feel like to hear, Jill?

[Jordan Hope]

Yeah, it's really a lot, I think. It's like. I mean, you were, like, my literal best friend for, like, sisters for a long time.

[Bree]

So long. Yes.

[Jordan Hope]

And I think you definitely knew. Probably the most out of literally anyone in my entire life, and I didn't even know. Right. So it's just like. And, like, you said, like. Yeah, I remember, like, trying to do, like, plotting of how, like, we could get me out of the house.

[Brianna Garrity]

We knew that your mom was terrible, and we knew she was not a fit mother, and she shouldn't. Yeah, but.

[Jordan Hope]

But I still thought I was sick, I guess. Exactly. A lot of it was real and.

[Brianna Garrity]

At least safe for the most part. Like, she was still your mom, so she did. Your best interest in mind.

[Andrea Dunlop]

Yeah. I'm hesitant to judge the adults surrounding Jo too harshly, but what the hell? This lady was just constantly drunk at cheer practice, and no one intervened. You know, the comfort of living in a small town, which, by the way, I also do, although it's certainly not one as isolated as Hutchinson, is that people are supposed to look out for each other. Why didn't someone do something about Donna? As is often the case with these offenders, Donna was skilled at eliciting sympathy.

[Brianna Garrity]

Your mom was broken, too, though. She would always, like, be sick. Sick or, like, injuring her. Injuring.

[Mariah Gossett]

Do you remember, Was she not with her? Was it, like, kind of every time you had an interaction with her, was there like a. Oh, I'm just my back or my thing or something?

[Brianna Garrity]

Was, like, always. Yeah, just, like, it was normal.

[Mariah Gossett]

Yeah, it was there.

[Jordan Hope]

Normal.

[Brianna Garrity]

Yeah.

[Mariah Gossett]

Yeah. Joe, just to the, like, question of how many meds were on hand? Were you taking all of those meds? Were you taking them sporadically? Was she getting them prescribed for you.

[Andrea Dunlop]

And then hoarding them?

[Mariah Gossett]

Like, do you have a sense of what.

[Jordan Hope]

I think it was pretty sporadic. Like, I. Like, there were, I feel, like, hundreds of, like, meds, but probably hoarding.

[Brianna Garrity]

Not taking, like, the full doses and hoarding them.

[Bree]

Hoarding them.

[Jordan Hope]

Lots of, like, antibiotics or, like, things like that. Yeah. I remember, like, one time, my mom, like, you could see, like, when you were sitting in the living room, there was, like, a mirror that kind of, like, shined. Like, you could see into the Kitchen. And my mom, like, overdosed on meds, like, with vodka, like, in the kitchen. And I couldn't call the cops because I couldn't do that to her. So I, like, told my neighbors, and they had to call the cops, and I had to stay at their house for the night because my mom was just crying about how she didn't want to live and how horrible she was. Usually more about how horrible I was.

[Brianna Garrity]

I was gonna say, I feel like a lot of it was, you were a horrible child to her. She didn't.

[Jordan Hope]

That was the reason she drank. Mm.

[Mariah Gossett]

Did she. Do you say that because Jo reported that to you, or did you actually.

[Andrea Dunlop]

Hear her mom say that about her.

[Brianna Garrity]

Telling me stories and seeing it firsthand? It wasn't very often that she, like, would talk like that to her. Cause she put up a front, but, like, it would slip, get her drunk enough. Yeah. Yeah. Definitely knew she was not a fan of you and that you ruined her.

[Jordan Hope]

I ruined her?

[Brianna Garrity]

Yeah.

[Jordan Hope]

Mm.

[Brianna Garrity]

Which, to me back then was, like, how you were the best. Like, I don't understand. She, like, does everything for you. Everything she does is because she wants to please you.

[Andrea Dunlop]

What Bree says about Joe here really hits me, because Joe is the best. They're always looking out for everyone around them. And Joe and I know a lot of people in common. Everyone loves them. Now, it's not a surprise to me to hear that everyone actually loved Joe growing up. But before this trip, I know that Joe believed the opposite. Their mom told them over and over again that they were a bad kid, so they thought that everyone else must think so too. That's the influence that our parents have on us. The things they tell us about ourselves, for better or worse, bury themselves pretty deep.

[Mariah Gossett]

So, Jo, I'm really interested in the way that you just phrased that, where you said, I didn't call the police because I couldn't do that to her. Why did you think? Because I think calling 911 would be, like, the most normal response. Like, what did you. Did you feel that was somehow a.

[Andrea Dunlop]

Betrayal of your mom?

[Jordan Hope]

Yeah. I mean, it goes to what you just said. Like, I. I, like, really thought I was, like, the pro. Like, I really. It's like, at times, like, yeah, I would, like, look for the alcohol, but it was. Cause I wanted. I thought if I could, like, take the alcohol from her, then she would, like, stop drinking and be nicer. And, like, I always just thought that, like, yeah, I was the problem. I was why she drank. I mean, she said if she. If I wasn't alive, she would stop drinking. So, like, I don't know what else else was to believe. And, yeah, she would always just say that I was, like, this bad kid. And even with everything going on, like, all I wanted was her to love me and, like, approve of me, for.

[Bree]

Me to be enough.

[Jordan Hope]

There were times that when the cops were called several times throughout my life because of her drinking, and they. Because, like, they would have to take her to the hospital and whatever to, like, detox and stuff. And my extended family would come over, like, that day, and then they would have me show them where all the pills and all the alcohol were, and then they would throw all of it out. Not in the garbage, outside, because we knew that she would, like, dive in the dumpster, so we'd have to, like, bring it to someone else's house. But then that's when they would, like, have me go stay at, like, my uncle's house or something, because they knew, like, when my mom got home from the hospital, like, she would literally kill me because it would be my fault. Even though, like, I was just doing what I was asked to do by my family. And, like, I always felt really weird about it all because I didn't understand, like, the alcohol or the pills or, like, any of that sort of stuff. But I wanted her to feel better, so, like, I would help, but I knew I would get in so much trouble.

[Andrea Dunlop]

Jo's mom, Donna, was clearly struggling with addiction and with her own mental health issues, but it doesn't excuse her actions. Someone should have protected Joe and held Donna accountable. And yet when adults in Joe's life did try to help, they met with dead ends. And those times when Jo attempted to reach out for help on their own, it often backfired.

[Bree]

My mom taught Sunday school, and I grew up in a, like, Missouri Senate Lutheran Church. And once she stopped teaching Sunday school, we stopped going to church. But I started going to church with my neighbors. And I had gone a little bit with some other people before this, but I started going with my neighbors to an evangelical free church, and I really liked it there. But I guess maybe because that was when I was a teenager, I was probably 14ish. And so that's when I started to kind of break away from my mom a little bit, and I think she felt threatened by that. High school is the first time I ever told anyone anything that was happening in my home prior to that, when I started getting more involved with church, where I started, I opened up to my neighbors and my youth leader for Youth for Christ. He was the first person I ever told anything that was happening. But all these people then that started to be in my life that were involved in church started to think I was making up illnesses and stuff. So then they started to use the Bible against me. And they would always use this quote, do you want to be well, then pick up your mat and walk. And they would always use that as, like, it was my choice to be healthy. And I would always do these testimonies at church and, like, through these little groups I was in where I would talk about how sinful I was and how bad I was and how God saved me. And it wasn't until getting out of that state, like, literally getting out of Minnesota, that I was able to, like, really wrestle with religion and really deconstructing religion. But I had to do so much. And I still struggle with this concept of, like, I'm evil and bad, because, one, I learned that that was just, like, my core beliefs because of what was going on in my home and how I was, like, taking in how people were reacting to me. But then, two, I was told, you know, the Bible says you're born sinful and, like, you can only, like, be good if Jesus is in your heart. And so I just assumed always, like, I had all these messages that were just thrown at me that I was the bad one.

[Andrea Dunlop]

You can tell even from a quick drive through town that in terms of places in Hutchinson that one might go to for support, the choices were going to be the church or the church across the street. And Joe quickly realized any help those institutions might offer came with big strings attached. I kept thinking as we were driving around this town about that country song that came out last year. Try that in a Small Town by G. Snell. D thought about how this song sounded to some people, like a patriotic love letter to tight knit communities where people take care of each other. And it sounded to others like a sinister warning to people who might try and stand up for themselves in a place where they're not welcome. And the truth is, we saw this duality in the story that we covered in season two. It was in part, I believe, the tight knit nature of the community surrounding Alyssa Wayburn, the victim in that case, that finally brought her abuser to justice and landed Alyssa ultimately in a safe and loving home. And you would hope that people in a place where everyone knows each other would really look out for one another. But maybe it can make situations like Joe's worse. Maybe it's easier to report on a person you suspect is abusing their child. If you're not going to see that person every single day at the grocery store for the rest of your life. Maybe insularity breeds its own kind of silence. Or maybe a town of any size is only as good as the people in it. Next time, we'll take a closer look at Joe's home life from the person who lived it with them.

[Brianna Garrity]

Because Mom's favorite phrase growing up is.

[Bree]

I brought you into this world, I can take you out.

[Andrea Dunlop]

Nobody Should Believe Me is written, hosted and produced by me, Andrea Dunlop. Our senior producer and editor is Mariah Gossett. Greta Stromquist is our Associate producer and administrative support from Nola Karmusch. Music provided by Jonny Nicholson and Joel Schupach with additional music and sounds from soundsnap. Additional music by Jason Shaw from Free Music archive thanks to Cadence 3 for recording support. Special thanks this week to Jen Becker, Brianna Garrity and the many people of Hutchinson who welcomed us into their homes and workplaces. If you'd like to support the show, the best way to do that is to subscribe on Apple Podcasts or on Patreon, where you can get all episodes early and ad free, along with extended cuts and deleted scenes from this season, as well as two exclusive bonus episodes every month. If monetary support is not an option, rating and reviewing the show wherever you listen helps a great deal. And if there's someone you feel needs to hear this show, please do share it. Word of mouth is so important for independent podcasts. For more, you can now find us on YouTube where we have all of our episodes as well as bonus video content.