In Zoe's Memory: A Mission for Change with Robin Kellner & John Sicher

Summary

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Podcast Summary: Thriving with Addiction with Dr. Jonathan Avery

Episode: In Zoe's Memory: A Mission for Change with Robin Kellner & John Sicher
Date: January 13, 2026
Host: Dr. Jonathan Avery
Guests: Robin Kellner & John Sicher

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Episode Overview

In this deeply moving episode, Dr. Jonathan Avery is joined by advocates Robin Kellner and John Sicher to discuss their journey following the tragic loss of Robin’s daughter, Zoe, to an accidental overdose in 2007. The conversation centers around Zoe’s life, the impact of stigma in mental health and substance use, and the life-saving potential of harm reduction strategies like Narcan distribution. Robin and John share their personal story, challenges navigating the healthcare system, and the advocacy work they've undertaken in Zoe's memory to reduce stigma, educate communities, and support families experiencing similar loss.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Introducing Robin and John & Their Advocacy (00:00–04:54)

• Robin shares her career evolution from art and entrepreneurship to mental health advocacy after Zoe’s passing.
• John discusses his legal and publishing background, and being inspired by his mother’s devotion to community service.
• Both emphasize that after Zoe’s death, their focus shifted from prevention to realistic harm reduction: “We may not be able to prevent people from doing what they want to do, but we certainly can try to keep them safer.” (Robin, 03:45)

2. Zoe’s Character and Life (05:27–07:37)

• Robin describes Zoe as adventurous, fearless, protective, and empathetic: “She cared about others... she wanted to protect that person.” (Robin, 05:39)
• John recalls Zoe’s youthful creativity and drive, recounting her pitch for a magazine at age 21: “Her enthusiasm and her energy and her intellect were really quite extraordinary.” (John, 06:52)

3. Early Warning Signs: Eating Disorder and Missed Learning Opportunities (08:20–13:28)

• Zoe’s eating disorder in high school highlighted the prevalence of stigma within healthcare, with Robin’s pediatrician responding punitively rather than therapeutically.
• Robin reflects on not recognizing this as stigma at the time and the lost opportunity to learn about the connection between eating disorders and substance use:

  “Without the information... I couldn't advocate for her as I should have. And... I missed out on some very important information.” (Robin, 10:45)

• John comments on widespread workplace stigma and its consequences: “It’s frightening and sad to imagine how many people died... because they were too afraid to get help.” (John, 12:31)

4. The College Years: Overdose & Healthcare System Failures (13:54–20:54)

• Zoe suffered an accidental overdose during her second year of college. Robin encountered stigma and lack of education in the ER:

  “I don’t know how much sicker one needs to be to get humane and good medical treatment.” (Robin, 13:54)

• No medical staff explained overdose risks or offered resources; both Robin and Zoe felt shame and just wanted to leave quickly.
• Discussion follows on the need for modern, compassionate ER care and the hope that things are improving in places like Weill Cornell.

5. Navigating Recovery & Systemic Barriers (21:04–28:23)

• After bringing Zoe home, Robin describes the difficulty in finding the right doctor and support, noting the lack of clear pathways for families dealing with addiction.
• They received harmful advice from “experts”—such as arresting or forcibly relocating Zoe—and lament the disconnect in support and resources compared to other illnesses:

  “If Zoe had cancer, we’d know exactly what to do... but it doesn’t work that way.” (Robin, 24:54)

• Breakthrough happens with a new psychiatrist who, understanding Zoe’s reluctance for treatment, agrees to see Robin and John instead, focusing on what they could control.

6. Breakthrough: Family Engagement & Motivational Strategy (28:23–31:43)

• The psychiatrist helps Robin focus communication with Zoe around love and the need for treatment, maintaining a “broken record” approach:

  “I love you much too much to watch you destroy yourself like this... the only thing I’m going to talk to you about is going into treatment.” (Robin, 28:23)

• After persistent, singular messaging, Zoe finally agrees to seek treatment:

  “Mom, I miss you so much. Just tell me what you want so that we can have a relationship back.” (Zoe, quoted by Robin, 30:55)

7. The Night Zoe Passed Away & Fentanyl’s Dangers (31:43–36:16)

• Zoe never made it to her much-anticipated appointment. She died quietly at home after what seemed like a normal evening:

  “She made herself a cup of tea and went to bed... but that one night, it wasn’t going to be like that.” (Robin, 34:17)

• John and Robin stress the rising dangers of adulterated drugs, notably fentanyl, and the critical importance of hope, awareness, and Narcan.

8. Grief, Healing, and Advocacy (36:16–41:06)

• Robin and John use their grief as a driver for advocacy, sharing Zoe’s story publicly to fight stigma and promote harm reduction.
• Robin highlights the loneliness and permanence of child loss:

  “I don’t think you get over this because the world has their children and suddenly you don’t. But I do think you figure out ways to live with what’s happened.” (Robin, 39:05)

• Zoe’s words in frustration underscore the importance of compassion for those struggling:

  “Do you really think I want to be like this? If I could do better, I would.” (Zoe, quoted by Robin, 40:35)

9. Hope for the Future & The Fight Against Stigma (41:06–43:00)

• John emphasizes eradicating stigma in medicine and society so people will seek help and not feel compelled to use drugs alone:

  “If stigma could somehow be banished, I think people would basically feel so much freer about getting help.” (John, 41:32)

• Robin adds the need for open doctor-patient communication, without shame impeding honest conversations.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Robin Kellner on Stigma:

  “Without the information, without the knowledge, without feeling as though Zoe was ill... I couldn't advocate for her as I should have.” (10:45)

• John Sicher on Workplace Stigma:

  “It's frightening and sad to imagine how many people died or lost families or careers because of stigma, because they were too afraid to get help.” (12:31)

• Robin on Advocacy Shift:

  “We may not be able to prevent people from doing what they want to do, but we certainly can try to keep them safer.” (03:45)

• On Harm Reduction:

  “No one needs to die of an overdose.” (Robin, 04:54)

• Zoe’s Frustration with Her Condition:

  “Do you really think I want to be like this? If I could do better, I would.” (Zoe, quoted by Robin, 40:35)

• Message to Other Families:

  “If it looks like us, it can look like you... We shouldn't have to be enlightened after something catastrophic.” (Robin, 13:54)

• Advocacy’s Impact:

  “I think the work you’re doing, John, is fantastic, and we thank you.” (John Sicher, 41:32)

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Important Timestamps

• 00:00–04:54: Introducing Robin and John’s backgrounds, motivation for advocacy
• 05:27–07:37: Describing Zoe’s personality and spirit
• 08:20–13:28: Early struggles, stigma in medical care, missed learning opportunities
• 13:54–20:54: The college overdose, ER failure, social/medical stigma
• 21:04–28:23: Search for adequate care, systemic barriers
• 28:23–31:43: Crafting a supportive approach, breaking through to Zoe
• 31:43–36:16: The night of Zoe’s death, risking fentanyl
• 36:16–41:06: Grief, loss, healing, message to other families
• 41:06–43:00: Looking ahead, the centrality of fighting stigma

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Conclusion

This episode is a powerful exploration of loss, healing, and the imperative to shift from shame and silence to openness, compassion, and practical harm reduction. Through Zoe’s story, Robin Kellner and John Sicher shine a light on the very real dangers of stigma within healthcare and society. Their advocacy not only honors Zoe’s memory but saves lives by championing Narcan access and honest conversations around addiction. Their heartfelt advice, clear-eyed critique of past medical failures, and hope for more compassionate systems are both sobering and inspiring.

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If you or someone you know is struggling with addiction, resources and support are available. Carry Narcan, seek help, and remember: thriving is possible.

Transcript

[A]

Welcome to the Thriving With Addiction podcast, where we explore how recovery is not just about surviving, but about truly living. Each week, we'll dive into the science stories and strategies that help people and families heal from addiction and build healthier, more resilient lives. I'm your host, Dr. John Avery. Let's get started. Today I'm joined by Robin Kellner and John Sitcher. Robin and John have dedicated their lives to advocacy and community service. After long and varied careers, Robin built and sold a successful recruitment business. And after the loss of her daughter Zoe in 2007, she partnered with New York Presbyterian and Weill Cornell to fight stigma around mental health and substance use and to promote harm reduction. John's career was in corporate law and publishing, and since selling his business, he has worked with Robin to support New York Presbyterian and Weill Cornell initiatives that help keep people who use drugs safe. Alongside their advocacy, Robin pursues art and John photography, both finding creative ways to connect and give back. John and Robin, welcome to be here, John.

[B]

It's nice to be here. It's nice to be doing this.

[A]

So great to have you. And, you know, we do things all the time together. We've partnered for years to tell Zoe's story and do Narcan and fight stigma. So I feel like I know you so well. But for our listeners to start, could you tell us just a little bit about yourselves, your background, your careers, and maybe a little bit even of how you two met?

[B]

Oh, my. Do you want to tell the story about how we met?

[C]

You go first, Robin.

[B]

I really had an art background, and then out of necessity, created a business and had a successful business. And then in 2012, I sold my business. And, I mean, I always wanted. Even when I was in business, I always wanted to do good. I always wanted to see if I could do something to help others. And I sold my business, and. And then our daughter Zoe passed away accidentally, unexpectedly. You know, the kind of thing where you feel as though that's somebody else's story until it's your story. And we decided to try to do something about what happened to us in an effort to prevent that kind of thing from happening to others, if that was even possible. H. Do you think that that's accurate?

[C]

It sounds right. And for me, I grew up in a small town in Pennsylvania, moved to New York, practiced law, went into publishing, sold my business back in 2015. You know, my mother was a model. She was very, very devoted to community service. It was very, very important part of her life. And during the years when I was in practicing law and business. I didn't have a lot of time to do a lot of community service. And when Zoe died and, you know, Robert and I tried to decide what we could do to honor Zoe and try to make a change. Make. Make a change to, or help society, help people. We were fortunate enough to meet John Avery and the collaboration with him, which has been evolved over, I guess, the last decade or so, has really been something which, you know, I think Rob and I are very proud of, and we really feel that, you know, as Robin will talk about harm reduction, I really. I really feel we've been fortunate enough to be in a position to save lives.

[B]

And one other thing, I mean, I think what we wanted when. When Zoe first passed away, we were. We wanted it. We were frantic to try to find a way to prevent that from happening. And then we realized over time that, you know, we may not be able to prevent people from doing what they want to do, but we certainly can try to keep them safer. And that became our message. Not a judgmental message, but a message that's more realistic, that if people are going to do certain things, there is something that can keep you safe. And we need. I mean, I feel like being realistic is probably life saving and is something that a lot of people really need to pay attention to.

[C]

And, you know, and led by Dr. Avery, you know, I'd say it's been. We basically, it's been two prongs. And, you know, we'll talk about this later in this podcast. There's been the fight against stigma because stigma is a killer. And also find. And also working on harm reduction. You know, as Robin often says in our Narcan trainings, no one needs to die of an overdose.

[B]

Right?

[A]

That's right. And, you know, we've. After all these years, we're family and, and I think we. We tackle this together and we've. We've really seen good. And, and the person behind all of this for each of us, I think, is Zoe. And Zoe's story. And I think telling her story is a key to fighting the stigma and promoting harm reduction. And we always tell the story when we give out Narcan kits. So let's talk a little bit about your daughter Zoe. And maybe before we go into her sort of health timeline, tell me just a little bit about what she was like as a person.

[B]

First of all, I love to talk about Zoe. I always do. So that's Zoe.

[A]

And for those listening, it's a picture of Zoe, young and beautiful and smiling at the Camera.

[B]

She and we were just talking about this. John and I were just talking about this other day. We were walking along Madison Avenue and saying that Zoe so embraced life. She was someone who loved adventure. She was fearless. But the other thing about Zoe was she really did. She cared about others. She wanted to do good as well. You know, if someone was being bullied in her class, well before people were talking about bullying, Zoe would want to protect that person. I mean, she just, she cared so much and she loved her friends and they loved her, and she was, she wanted to do everything. And, you know, that's a wonderful, wonderful character. Traitor. But her fearlessness did get her into trouble. I think that if Zoe lost her life when she was 22 years old, I think if Zoe had lived, she would have figured out a way to sort of harness that incredible curiosity and sense of adventure and fearlessness and do something amazing in this world.

[C]

I mean, I totally agree. I mean, she was a. An unusual young woman. I was in the publishing business and I remember she came to me and said that she had an idea for a magazine. She was only about 21 years old and she asked me to meet her for coffee. Robin and I weren't married yet, but I'd known Zoe for years and we met for coffee. And this 21 year old young woman had these wonderfully well developed thoughts for a very creative and unique magazine idea, which unfortunately, she never really had time to start. But her enthusiasm and her energy and her intellect were really quite extraordinary.

[A]

I feel like I've gotten to know her over the years and then I've seen a lot of her pictures and heard a lot of the stories. I love that we do this work together in her honor. And I think as we think about her healthcare journey, we can learn a lot about, you know, some of the struggles with the healthcare system, the stigma that exists around addiction and mental health. And I think we use some of those lessons to inform some of what we do as we talk to folks around stigma. So let's dive into a little bit of her healthcare journey and how things ended up transpiring. I think one of the big initial critical points we often talk about was when Zoe was in high school and struggling with an eating disorder. Can you talk a little bit about that?

[B]

When Zoe was a junior in high school, she developed an eating disorder and, you know, her pediatrician identified it and, you know, she said we should just do something, you know, be aggressive about her treatment, which I didn't know very much about mental health issues, certainly not about eating Disorders. So I followed her lead, and she said, let's just. Zoe should just be inpatient at a hospital, and we'll address this, you know, pretty aggressively. And I thought that sounded fine. As things, you know, things do happen, they don't always run the right way. When I brought Zoe to the hospital, there was no bed for her. And I mean, she was terrified. She was really frightened. She had never been in a hospital except when she was born. And the nurse there said, there's no bed, but she can sleep in the corridor. And I said to myself, you know, that doesn't feel right. Let me call her doctor, called her pediatrician. I told her what was going on. And her doctor said to me, you know something, Robin? What I think Zoe really needs is a good swift kick in the pants. Keep her there, Let her stay there. And you know something? At that time, I didn't realize that that was stigma, that this doctor was judging Zoe and expecting her to be able to be better than she could be without medication, without therapy, without any tools. She thought that her behavior was manipulative and she was trying to teach her a lesson in a harsh and punitive way. But, you know, part of the problem was the medical. But the other part was that I didn't know enough to. I mean, I knew enough not to keep her in the hospital, so I did bring her home, but I didn't really understand enough about what the implications are. What, you know, what. What future implications would be about an eating disorder.

[A]

Well, if a doctor says to punish the person for the condition, you don't wonder about those sort of things. You view it as like a moral fail, bad choice. It creates the wrong environment to learn those things, I imagine.

[B]

Exactly. And, you know, without the information, without the knowledge, without feeling as though Zoe was ill, I mean, she was. She had a serious health failing ailment. I couldn't advocate for her as. As I should have. And I also, because I couldn't advocate for her, I didn't ask enough questions because I was so embarrassed and I was so ashamed. And I thought, if her doctor is being punitive, then maybe she's doing something wrong. And because I didn't ask the questions, I missed out on some very important information. And some of that information was, here's Zoe. She's a junior in high school. She's going to go off to college. What I learned after, because I researched this after, was that eating disorders can be predictors of substance use disorders or substance misuse. And that was really important information for both of us. I mean, that was important information for Zoe so that she could know that she was more vulnerable than maybe somebody else. And it certainly was important information for me. But we missed out on all of that because the. The atmosphere and the attitude was so punitive and so embarrassing and so shameful that I just wanted. I just. I didn't want to be there. I just didn't want this to be happening, and I didn't want to be there. And that's really a disservice. And, you know, things happen from there.

[C]

You know, stigma is. Stigma has been such a dangerous thing for so many people for so many years. You know, during my career in business, you know, I ran a couple of companies, and over and over and over again, I would run into employees who either had psychiatric issues, who had substance use misuse issues, who were afraid to. Afraid to basically use their medical insurance to get help. They were afraid to basically tell anybody in the workplace because they thought it would go into their, quote, HR record and be used against them. You know, I'm sure this was multiplied all over the country many, many times. You know, it's frightening and sad to imagine how many people died or lost families or careers because of stigma, because they were too afraid to get help.

[A]

Yes. I mean, you're right. I mean, stigma. So many people have felt it when they've struggled with mental health and substance use, and you feel it when you're struggling. And then when it resolves or the cute episode is over, there's the tendency then to just almost forget about it. Right. To just think of it as in the past and not to look forward to some of the risks. And it sounds like that's what happened. In Zoe's case, it was sort of over and then, but before you know it, she was off to college. And you became concerned about substances.

[B]

Right, because it wasn't really over. I mean, I wanted it to be over. You know, I think part of what we're trying to do, John and I are trying to do, and John Avery, is help other people realize that this is anybody's story, that this is not just our story. And I mean, I was like that before this happened. The idea here is that we shouldn't have to be enlightened after something catastrophic, something the worst thing in the world happens that shouldn't be when our eyes are open. Part of what we're trying to do is show people that this is what it looks like. It looks like us. This terrible tragedy looks like us. And if it looks like us, it can look like You. I was so relieved that Zoe went through this eating disorder relatively quickly. I was just so happy and elated that I didn't really look back and I didn't really want to get the information that I needed. And then, yes, Zoe went off to college. And the first year she was fine. And then the second year that she was there, I spoke to her and she did not sound fine at all. And the bottom line was she had an accidental drug overdose on her college campus and she was found unconscious. And I just happened to be visiting her because I kind of, I don't know, a mother's instinct, you somehow can intuit when something isn't right. And that's what it felt like. And I was there, thank God. And she was in the emergency room. And I ran, I went to the emergency room and you know, as soon as I got there, I feel that this was a nuisance for them. This was taking up time and space from someone else who was really sick. And I often say this when I talk to doctors at Weill Cornell. I don't know how much sicker one needs to be to get humane and good medical treatment. And Zoe almost died. And we were treated as though get her stabilized and get her out. And because of that treatment, we missed so much information. I mean, I felt I missed information the first time around with the eating disorder. We missed much more information the second time around. Because, you know, Zoe, this was back in 2005, right John, 2005. And nobody was talking about opioids, nobody was talking about drug overdoses. I knew nothing. And because I knew nothing, the only thing that I realized was sort of feeling this shame and embarrassment that this could even happen to us. They stabilized her, they released her. Zoe was held for 36 hours. And 36 hours is a lot of time. And I stayed by her. We were in the emergency room, we were in a little cubicle and I stayed with her for the 36 hours. In 36 hours, no one. Now, I'm sure things are different today, or I certainly hope things are different today. But nobody explained to us what a drug overdose is, what the implications are of a non fatal drug overdose. Later I learned that a non fatal drug overdose is a predictor of a fatal, can be a predictor of a fatal drug overdose. Nobody explained to us what substance use, substance misuse is. Nobody tried to understand what was going on with her, you know, why she did what she did. You know, people do things. There's something that's driving the behavior. And I always felt as though why wasn't anyone interested in what was driving her behavior? She wasn't just a kid who was indulging. There was something else that was going on and that needed to be discussed and it wasn't discussed. And, you know, once again, I was relieved that she was okay and we both just wanted to get out of there. But that's not how we should view medical treatment. We should view medical treatment as an opportunity to learn something, to have the information that we don't go in having and being better informed. You make better judgments, you make better decisions.

[C]

John. John, what would happen today, that was back in 2005, as Robin said, and it was at a hospital down south. I won't mention where. What would happen today at Weill Cornell if Zoe, hypothetically, or someone like Zoe was brought into the Weill Cornell emergency room with an overdose is the kind of things that Robin is talking about, which so would have made a difference. Is that happening yet today in New York at Weill Cornell?

[A]

That's our hope that it happens here and everywhere, that it's not sort of your experience, similar in some ways to the eating disorder, was you were punished. And my research is on the stigma of addiction and shows that attitudes are worse even among the medical community towards folks with substance use. And it may be especially negative in the emergency room settings. And so our hope is that these days that wouldn't be the case, that they wouldn't ask what, but they would understand why and make sure that they're addressing the underlying psychiatric and substance use disorders and offering treatment and offering Narcan. And as it was back then, it felt almost like a prison setting, not a therapeutic medical setting, which is, you know, no way to get help. And, you know, I hear how you experience it, but I can only imagine how she experienced it. Right. I mean, someone who's struggling, you hear people saying you're doing bad stuff, more or less, you're acting badly. And then you start to believe that, and that makes it very hard to then want to get treatment and trust providers again in the future.

[B]

I think that that's very true. I think it's sort of self perpetuating. You know, you hear that you're bad and people think that you're bad. And then you say, you know, I guess I am, and you believe something that is so far. I mean, Zoe was. I mean, look, you know, every parent feels this way. Zoe was really uniquely good person and wanted to do so much good in this world. But, you know, she did not have an easy childhood and she did experience a lot of trauma as a child. And I think, you know, I believe that most people do what they do for real reasons. And she was in pain, and she did what she could to relieve herself of that pain. You know, it's that typical self medicating, you know, story. She wanted to feel better, and she did what she could to make herself feel better.

[A]

Tell me what happened next. So she left the emergency room, and then we were still worried about her, and so we had to find her treatment next. And what was that journey like?

[B]

So I brought her back to New York, even though she said to me, you know, mom, I just made a mistake. I made a. You know, she didn't understand how serious what she was doing really was. She didn't understand the implications. But anyway, I brought her back to New York and then we started to try to. You know, I had so little information to go on that I wasn't even sure what kind of doctor I should be looking for. You know, I mean, I know enough to realize that something drives behavior. So I didn't want to look at it just as a drug problem. I wanted to look at it as there was something going on with her. She wasn't treating herself well. And what did that mean? And what. So eventually we found someone in New York to treat her. And this was an addiction psychiatrist who Zoe loved, because Zoe loved. I mean, she was intrigued by neurology, psychiatry. I mean, she just loved all of that, all the sciences. So she got along very well with this woman, and she actually started to get better. John, what do you think?

[C]

I agree.

[B]

Great. I mean, she started to come around, right?

[C]

Without a doubt.

[B]

You know, she was. She was in treatment. She started to go back to school. Some of her friends came back to New York. So it's sort of like the, you know, the group sort of came back together and she was. She seemed, you know, she seemed happy. Until one day I came home and I could see because she was right here in front of me, that she was high and she was not well. And that started this horrible. Which John and I sort of participated in together, this horrible search for medical treatment, which, of course, it shouldn't be that way. It shouldn't be this desperate, trying to research and trying to learn at the same time how to get the proper help for someone who is ill. I mean, what we should have is her pediatrician should have resources and recommendations. Her adolescent medicine doctor should have been on board and been helping us. You know, family should have been supporting us. And it didn't it was, it was the opposite of that. It was the furthest thing from that. We, I mean, basically had to do our own trial and error research by interviewing doctors and either accepting or rejecting them because we were getting the craziest recommendations. Right, John?

[C]

Terrible, terrible recommendations. I mean, again, this was back in 2007, hopefully it's been better today. But we saw some of the quote, quote, unquote, leading experts in New York referred to us by people who believe they really know who the experts were. And we got advice like have her arrested or kidnap her to another state where she can be held longer. The most, the most punitive, uncaring, uninsightful recommendations you can imagine. And you know, as Robin will tell you, finally we find, we finally, we found somebody else who Robin basically making endless phone calls. We found someone else in New York who had a different approach.

[B]

But it shouldn't be this way. It should be like if Zoe had, God forbid she had cancer, we'd know exactly what to do and we would have the best doctors because we're lucky enough and we'd have support from our family and friends because they would be so compassionate about it and so understanding when it comes to this particular mental health issue. It's not like that. It doesn't work that way. I mean, I hope it does now, but it didn't then. And all of that time that we spent doing, looking, looking for people and rejecting ideas because obviously, I mean, can you imagine telling a mother that you should have your child arrested because they're sick? I mean, it just, it's so crazy, but that's what happened. But that at the same time we were losing a lot of time because Zoe was not stopping what she was doing. Things were progressing and we were just still in this search mode. Eventually I spoke to someone up at McLean Hospital and they recommended that I talk to somebody here in New York. And we found someone who, you know, part of the problem is that when someone is sick in the way that Zoe was, they're not compliant. You know, they're not necessarily, oh, you know, sure, whatever you say, mom. It doesn't work that way. And that's part of the problem with dealing with this illness. And so I wanted her to get treatment and she felt like things were just going along just fine. You know, she was doing this little part time job and she was, her friends were back and, you know, she was happy in her life, but I knew that she was doing things that would get her into trouble. So we, we, we found this doctor here in New York. And I said to him what I had said to everybody else, and everybody else had said to me, if Zoe doesn't want treatment, then we can't help her. I said to this doctor, I can't get my daughter to come in. And he said, that's okay. You come in. You come in without her. Let's deal with what you have, and we'll talk about her, and we'll talk about it. And that's what we did. John and I went to talk to this doctor and told him what was going on. And he, you know, he sort of creatively worked with what we had, which was a child who really needed treatment but didn't want to do anything quite yet. And I think that that's the case with a lot of people who, John, I think, you know, you could speak to this. I think that's the case with a lot of people who have this mental health issue. They're not quite ready to admit that they may need a little extra help or some medicine or whatever,

[A]

for sure. No, it's a challenging process, and I think that's hard for the person who's struggling to admit sometimes that what's exactly going on to get help. It's hard for families, as you're describing, to try to get them into care. And what that doctor did was so great because he engaged with you around what was possible and who could come meet with him. And too often, I think we, you know, medical community or other supports just sort of say, ah, there's nothing we can do. But that was really great that he. He leaned in and helped you think about what we can do.

[B]

Yeah. And I mean, it was the first in all, like, in her whole health timeline, it was the first person in the medical community, in the medical community that gave me hope because everybody else was either punitive or there's nothing we can do. And I mean, that was pretty remarkable. Anyway, he. John, you remember this because you were with me. This doctor said to both of us, or to me, what's the most important thing to Zoe? And, you know, at the time, I said, you know, maybe drugs, because that was part of what was going on. And you, John, said to me and the doctor, no, I don't think so. I don't think that's it. And I said, well, what, you know, maybe her first friends. And. And you said, no. And then you said to me and this doctor that the most important thing to Zoe was me was the relationship that we had and how much she loved me. And that was the most important thing to her. And from that, this doctor helped us craft this script so that I kept my communication with Zoe very, very narrow and very, very specific, to the point that it was very frustrating for her. But it was also clear. And we didn't go off on other things. We just stayed very focused on one thing, which was, I love you much too much to watch you destroy yourself like this. So the only thing I'm going to talk to you about is going into treatment. And I'm going to be a broken record, but that's all I'm going to talk to you about. And I literally did that. I mean, I didn't know what I was doing, and I just had to. It was a leap of faith that this was something that could work. But I told Zoe that that's all we were going to talk about. And she'd come home at the end of the day and she'd say, hey, Mom. And I'd say, nothing. And she said, mom. And I'd say, the only thing I'm going to talk to you about is going into treatment. And I did that without interruption for about two and a half weeks. And one day out of the blue, when I really thought that nothing is working, that this is crazy to even do, she said to me, she said, mom, I miss you so much. Just tell me what you want so that we can have a relationship back. And I said to her, all I want is for you to go into treatment. And I wouldn't be. I want to be a part of it. I want to know what I can do. I want to know how I can help. But that's all I want. And she agreed. And I made an appointment for her that Thursday after Good Friday. That Good Friday weekend, she had an appointment with that doctor.

[A]

That doctor did something really important. It sounds like he got you guys out of sort of fighting around it to just a very simple message that. That you loved her and you wanted her to connect to care, and keeping it that simple work. She agreed. And that appointment, I think, was on Thursday. But that weekend. Do you want to walk us through what happened that weekend?

[B]

Yeah. So that weekend she had the appointment, and then that weekend she went out with her friends, as she had been doing, and she came home on a Sunday night, and I was making dinner. And when she came home, you know, she. I don't know if this is my imagination, but she came home and she really. She looked tired. She looked like she was sort of done, like, done with this and ready. And I said to her, do you want Some dinner. And she said, you know something, Mom? I think I'm going to make myself a cup of tea and I'm going to go to bed. And she went in the kitchen, she made her tea, and she went to bed, and that was it. I didn't think anything other than what she said was going to happen. And she went to bed, and then I went to bed. And the next morning, I opened up her door and she had blackout shades and her room was dark. And I went off to work, and I had somebody in the house, and I called a couple of times and she said that Zoe was in her room. And I came home at the end of the day and I went into her room, and Zoe had passed away on Sunday night. Not Monday, but Sunday night. And she went and she. She made herself a cup of tea, but she also took some drugs that night that slowed her respiration and stopped her heart. And she went to sleep and she never woke up, which is, to me, just the cruelest thing in the world, because she had no idea. And I mean, that's part of what we try to message today, which is that, you know, Zoe went into her room and did what she did on many nights, but that one night, it wasn't going to be like that, and she had no idea. That's just so unfair. Anyway, what we try to message is that today, and John, you can speak to this, there's this horrible influx of fentanyl, and people have drugs or product or whatever you want to call it, that are adulterated. And we believe that what Zoe took that night was adulterated, and she went to sleep and never woke up.

[C]

You know, no one. No one took Zoe's distress or illness, whatever you want to call it, seriously enough. And I think that's something which has basically been pervasive on the. So much of the problem in America with addiction and recreational drugs, they don't take it seriously enough. They don't believe it could be them. They don't take proper precautions. And, you know, back. Back when Zoe died in 2007, Narcan was not available in nasal sprays. Today, it's not. Not only available in nasal sprays, but it's available over the counter. But there. I feel there's still too much of a belief that, you know, it can't. I. It won't be me. I'll get through it. You know, it's a very, very, very serious problem. It's one of the leading causes of death in America today. And I. I still look as much as. As as all the progress over the last decade or so, there needs to be a lot more progress.

[B]

Yeah. And people still feel as though, I mean, part of the reason that we do this, John and I do this, is because, you know, we want people to look at us and see that this is it. We don't look that much different from you. And, you know, I think it's hard to believe that this could be your child's story. It certainly was for me. But we have to allow this in. Just like we would allow in, God forbid, if Zoe had a blood disease or diabetes or some other illness, we would allow that in. We would allow ourselves to realize that that could happen. And this has to be addressed like that.

[A]

So out of this tragedy, you've given back in these. These powerful ways. And one is like you're doing today, telling Zoe's story. And we all three of us go together and we tell these stories to doctors and interns and nurses and people in schools and all over to highlight the stigma that exists that people who are struggling might experience and to encourage them to seek the right help. And then we've also given out Narcan together. And you guys mentioned some of the highlights there. But just to underscore it that Narcan reverses opiate overdoses. Surgeon General recommends everyone should have a kit. They're available over the counter, and in most cities and around the country, you can get them for free from the Department of Health or from different mail in services. And so we are encouraging everyone to carry Narcan and to actively speak out and fight stigma as well. How else have you two managed, though? I can only imagine how hard it was in the first days and weeks and since part of it has been this advocacy work. But how else have you navigated this grief? And what would you recommend for families that have suffered similar loss?

[B]

I mean, the very beginning, I don't even think I remember how each day. I mean, I think I just tried to get through each day. I don't even remember a lot from the beginning. It was just too overwhelming and too painful. And I think just, you know, I think that you're in denial. I mean, for a while, I. I was convinced myself that Zoe was going to still come home. It's that big and bad.

[C]

But let me jump in. Whether it's drugs or another. Cause one of the things that Robin and I have talked about over the years is that people don't really understand the death of a child. You know, they. They understand better the death of a parent who's much older. When a couple gets older, a husband or wife passes away, people understand that. But what Robin and I. But what Robin had to do was bury her child. And that's against the natural order of things and what we found over the years. And, you know, if you ask how people could cope better or other people could help people cope better, it's to basically understand that the death of a child is shocking in a way that no one can imagine. And thank God most people don't have to experience it. But it's. It's very. It's very bad and hard.

[B]

It's very hard. And it's hard. I think it's hard forever. I mean, you know, I feel as though I don't think you get over this because the world has their children and suddenly you don't. But I do think you figure out ways to live with what's happened. And I also know. I mean, Zoe was very courageous and very strong, and she would want me to do something about this with this. She would not want me to just lie down, and that would be it. She would want me to speak out, and she'd want me to somehow write this misconception of who this is, who has this health issue. I wanted to say before because I think it's important. I think part of the problem is that people who suffer from this health issue sometimes behave in ways that aren't that appealing or attractive or, you know, they're hard to deal with. And one day, Zoe and I were arguing about her going into treatment, and she said to me something that I repeat, because I think it's so applicable in a general way, which was, do you really think I want to be like this? If I could do better, I would. And a lot of people don't understand that. Nobody wants to be out of control. People want to be better than they are, but they can't be better until they have the right medication, the right tools, the right therapy, and, my God, they need the compassion and support of people around them. And we don't do that for this. We do that if it's cancer, but we don't do that for this. And, I mean, that really is something that. I mean, I don't know how we should work on that, but I feel like that's really something we need to work on.

[A]

Well, that's my hope with today, is that that's what we're doing together by sharing your story and Zoe's story. And I know we always carry Zoe with us around here and we bring this with us as we train physicians and clinicians and people in schools. And I can't thank you enough, both enough for doing this with me and for sharing her story. What gives you hope as you look ahead now?

[C]

I think the fight against stigma is so important. The fight against stigma in the medical profession, the fight against stigma in the public. I think if stigma could somehow be banished, I think people would basically feel so much freer about getting help, talking to people, not hiding, not do, you know, even not doing drugs alone, which is very dangerous. But I think stigma is such a big part of this problem. And I think the work you're doing, John, is fantastic, and we thank you.

[B]

And also stigma, it prevents people like Zoe from talking openly to their doctor. And if we could bridge that communication so that people felt like, yeah, you know what? This is what I'm doing. I don't know how it started. Whatever they would say, that would be the beginning of getting better. But there's so much shame. I mean, I think shame is sort of the first thing that happens, and it is the beginning of a negative way of dealing with a very, very, very serious health issue. We're very, very grateful to you, John, because you really have been incredible and innovative and things that nobody else is doing, and I think that is changing things.

[A]

I'm very grateful to you both for sharing your story today, but always with me and for doing this work together. I couldn't do it without you both. And thank you for again sharing Zoe's story today.

[B]

Thank you. Thank you for having us.

[C]

Thank you for having us, John.

[A]

Thanks for listening to the Thriving With Addiction podcast. If you found today's episode helpful, please follow and subscribe wherever you listen to your podcasts and share it with someone who might benefit. You can also connect with me on Instagram, LinkedIn and YouTube or visit thrivingwithaddiction.com to learn more. Stay tuned for next week's episode. And remember, thriving is possible.