B (2:15)

I have been hold that before. I will say. So maybe I gotta get on that.

A (2:19)

There's some merchandising to have here with the book. That's the best way to do it. But how did you get into this? Tell me. There's not many that end up up focusing on parenting. And so it's a very unique specialty you have. And so how did it come to be that this is your thing?

B (2:36)

Yeah, it was not my plan even a little bit. I went to grad school thinking I'd end up focusing on young adult mental health and ended up working in a lab that really focused more on child adolescent psychology. And I loved it. It was so fun and so creative, and you could play and just, you know, have fun with the kids. And I was really scared of parenting sessions at first. They were really intimidating to me. But as I kept meeting with kids, I'd see them make this beautiful progress in session, and we'd stop and everything would be great. And then we'd get an email asking for boosters, you know, three months later, six months later, a year later, and it became really apparent that the parents and the home environment just wasn't evolving at the same pace as the kiddo was. So all that great progress we'd made in individual therapy would sort of go away because parents weren't on board. And then I had an externship, a child study center near the end of my grad program that focused more on supporting parents of kids with ADHD and disruptive behavior. And we'd meet with these parents who were just so desperate to help their babies. You know, they wanted so badly to support their kids, and they felt so stuck and so lost about how to navigate that world. And it was sort of heartbreaking to watch. And suddenly parents shifted from being intimidating to, you know, just so worthy of our support and help. Um, and so it just became this real love of mine. And I've sort of continued to evolve in that space ever since. And I still like individual therapy with kids. But there's something really special about working with parents as they help the person they love the absolute most in the world.

A (4:24)

Right. And I'm glad that you acknowledge how hard it was at first to sort of to be with the parents and how intimidating it could be, because that was my experience as an early clinician, before I went bald and got older, is that I was like, it's going to be too complicated, or I'm not going to know how to connect with the parent like I can with the kid. But you can't do one without the other.

B (4:44)

Totally.

A (4:44)

You know, it's the whole unit that Ben needs help. And so I'm glad you, you. You specialize in it at the end.

B (4:51)

Yeah, it's a. It's a joy. It's a joy for me. Wouldn't treat it.

A (4:55)

That's good. Well, before we get to the parents and how to parent the kids, help me understand a little bit what's going on with the kids to start, because you hear a lot of scary news out there about the rise in mental health issues. And I mean, some of the recent data on substance use in the light of the mental health struggles is interesting. The kids are vaping a little bit less, they're drinking less, they're having sex less, I guess, and. But it seems like a lot of what's going on, correct me if I'm wrong, is that they're in their rooms, isolated, on digital devices, perhaps more. Maybe that's the newer addiction that parents are tackling. What are you noticing in your practice? What do some of the numbers show?

B (5:31)

Yeah, a lot of that. I think you're right. I mean, globally, we see just overall increasing rates of youth mental health concerns, and I think that's certainly partly tied to social media. You know, we have increasing evidence that, you know, anxiety and trauma symptoms, things like that, increase as kids spend more time on their devices. I see a lot of parents very worried about that. I still do hear a lot of parents worrying about their kids using substances. Less alcohol, more marijuana, more vaping in their rooms, more going out to parties and using there. So globally that might be going down, and I. And I still see it popping up a lot. But I also think kids are just dealing with a bunch of other stressors that are unique or at least more pressing for this generation. You know, things only get more competitive academically every year. Kids are more aware of what's going on in the world, which I think is really wonderful and kind of amazing how involved they are, but it's also really scary for them. I have so many teens in my offices terrified about safety in school or climate change, or they're stressed about politics or their rights. So, yes, you know, totally kids are on screens more and their substance use is still in the mix, but I don't know that, at least anecdotally, that feels like the cause to me, as much as it's part of this just overall bigger stress, isolation worry that kids are experiencing these days.

A (7:01)

And it's a great point. And when one behavior is so loud sometimes, like if someone's caught smoking or they're in the room too much on the device, I think you can lose track of all those other factors and what sort of the global. I sort of learned this. I was. The worst article I ever tried to write was a couple months ago, and it was an opinion piece, and it was titled Bring back the Teenage Party. And the idea being that I thought they were in the room too much, and we have to be careful about substances. We have to bring them out. And the editor wrote back like, this is ridiculous. And part of it was that, yeah, there's all this other stuff that. And we sometimes miss and forget that. The same stressors that we have as adults. Right. What's going on in the world, all the different stressors that we face, the kids are feeling that too.

B (7:47)

That's right. And they have less control over it. You know, as an adult, when I feel stressed about something, there's usually some action items I can take. You know, I can vote, I can donate, I can volunteer time. Kids can do that to some capacity, but they just don't have nearly the same leverage in many ways that adults do. So they're just sort of sitting ducks. Right. That's really distressing situation to be in.

A (8:14)

All right, so. So walk, Walk me through the. You know, my. My daughter's 12, about to be 13, so I'm. I'm taking notes throughout this. So what are some principles of. I mean, even before there's a problem, just sort of setting the right relationship with. With your child. And, and ideally, how are we managing these, you know, the screens and I mean, like, what's it, what's it look like in. In an ideal world before we talk about tackle and stuff?

B (8:38)

Sure, yeah. I mean, I think before we get to anything at all, it's about the connection building. It's trying to find ways to help our kids feel supported, help them feel like we're there for them without judgment, that we are interested in them just because we love them and they have self worth in and of themselves. You know, obviously I have a little bit of a biased sample with the families coming in whose kids have mental health concerns, but there's so many teens who just feel like they're not bringing anything to the table. They just really are worried about what they're adding to the world. And I want parents to be thinking about where can you just infuse love and value in the system just because. Just because you love your kid, not because they're an athlete or they're smart or whatever it is. And that comes down to things like time together, intentional time together. Right. Focused attention, validating your kid, acknowledging all their wonderful strengths. And I think lots of parents have good intentions and, and we don't always think to do those things. So, so intentionally they sort of get lost in all the other stuff we have to do all day long.

A (9:46)

Right. And I guess those strategies are prevention strategies too. They're, they're, you know, they help let the kid know you're, you love them, you're ready to talk about things when they get more stressful. And I mean with substance use and mental health, they sort of recommend starting to broach the topics maybe at 8 or 9 these days. I mean, how do you encourage folks to make those initial conversations even before. I mean, what happens often is the first conversation is when there's a crisis. But I imagine there's some sort of prevention building work around how important mental health is or substances are to a family unit.

B (10:18)

Yeah, it's a good question. I do think a lot of parents, they're just worried about awkward conversations. Like we don't want to have those harder conversations. They're weird for us and we're worried that we're going to put things in our kids heads. But I just don't usually see that playing out. Right. Kids are aware of this stuff. If not from you, it's going to be from TikTok or YouTube or their friends. It's going to come up. So I'd much rather parents get ahead of it. And I tend to recommend just a really calm, straightforward approach when we're just introducing it. It's not a crisis, it doesn't have to be a particularly emotional or convoluted conversation. It's just facts. Right. This came up with my son the other day. He's six. We were at some party, there was alcohol, right. And he wanted to have the drink. And we're like, you can't, it's alcohol. And well, what is it? What is that? Right. And it's a really straightforward answer of. It's a, it's a thing that someone calls drinks. Sometimes it feels good. It's not that great for your brain or your body. It's really not good for kids because your body's still growing so it's more sensitive. That's it. You know, that was all the conversation was, it was two minutes. Right. But since then it's come up a few times where he'll say things like, oh well, that probably has alcohol in it. So that's not so good for my body. Right. We're just trying to get little bits of information in a non judgmental way. I wasn't saying never drink ever. I wasn't Saying your life will be ruined if you ever look at alcohol. Right. But we're just trying to infuse facts before they're filtered through the lens of teen brain and teen emotions.

A (11:51)

Right. And that sounds like a better strategy than sitting on the edge of the bed saying, if you drink or smoke, I'm gonna kill you. It's, it's like it just as it comes up being, being honest and open about substances, about mental health, about what they see in the world in general, I guess even about these hot topic issues going on in the world, that that may impact them as well.

B (12:10)

Yep, that's right. And again, to your point, I think a lot of parents sort of want to scare their kid into, quote, unquote, you know, skillful or good behavior. Right. But when we think about it, most kids are likely to engage in problem behaviors when they're more distressed. So if I make a topic more distressing, if anything, I make those, those behaviors more likely to happen. And then if they happened anyways, you know, your kid went to a party and they use substances and now they come home, they are so worried about your reaction. They're certainly not coming to you for help. Right. And then we see much bigger issues. So we don't have to be thrilled about some of the behaviors if we're concerned about our kid, but the bigger of a scary, damning issue we make them, the harder it is to actually support our kids when they need it.

A (12:57)

Right. And we've seen that on so many levels in society. I mean, we can't. You can't punish substance use out of, out of people as much as we've tried. And I mean, the school prevention stuff that I remember when I was a kid was just awful. I mean, showing dead bodies and the police and their police guards.

B (13:13)

Right, exactly.

A (13:14)

And everyone was like, I mean, it did the opposite of help. It's just created this environment where these people don't get it. They're only out to punish us. And let's try to live our best life without these parental figures. So. All right, that's good. So we'll set, we'll get the basic principles. And I guess the other thing that we have to be mindful of is ourselves. The parents have to make sure that they're coping in the right way and have their own sort of mental health stuff figured out. I mean, I struggle in that line to sort of. You know, when parents bring me a kid who's vaping or using weed, one of the first questions they ask is often, what do I have to do with my own drinking, for example. And I mean, how do you navigate addressing the parental mental health or the parental substance use as you, as you tackle what's going on with the child?

B (14:03)

Yeah, so I like how you framed it that way. Right. Because there are things I might want for the parent, as a parent and also for their own well being. And I think this comes up more broadly not just with substance use, but with emotions. Right. Parents often say, well, what do I do when I'm mad? Am I supposed to show I'm really mad or I'm not supposed to show, you know, whatever, what do I do with all this? So I, one of the first things I talk about with all the parents that I work with is just acknowledging how hard parenting is, how hard these conversations and these decisions are. So hey, parent in front of me, what help are you getting? What support do you have? What's your baseline stress level? And if we're struggling, if we're having a hard time or you're even managing, but it's still really hard, let's spend a little time talking about your own parent coping strategies. And it's not your individual therapy with me, but there's still some things we can get you going. Right. And then if we need more than that, let's get you connected to your own, to your own care, then we have the, the being a parent as a parent. Right. What's the model for their kids? And I do think modeling matters and we have some research that modeling matters. So the way I like to describe it to parents is it's not that there's a one to one correlation between what you do as a parent and what your child does, but your sort of creating a pathway in your kid's brain. And the more well worn that pathway is, the easier it will be for your kid's brain to follow suit, especially in moments of stress. So if you're the type of parent who gets mad and yells and slams the door, not going to be shocked if your kid does the same. If you're the type of parent who comes home and has a drink every day after work, I'm not going to be shocked if your kid grows up to do the same. Right. We are little sponges when we're kids. We take all that in. So I'm not trying to dictate every single decision a parent makes. If they want to use substances, it's not my decision. I do want them to be mindful about what they're portraying as the norm, especially in response to stressful. Situations. Right. So I want parents to use themselves as an opportunity to sort of shape effective behaviors in their kids. If they can be a parent who has a really hard day and goes for a walk or calls their best friend or watches a movie, that's actually probably close to the choice we want for the kid. And by the way, that's maybe more helpful for you as the adult anyways.

A (16:34)

And I imagine it's hard as a clinician to say that to parents when they. Without them feeling defensive at times or. How's the best way to have that conversation?

B (16:44)

Yeah, I think a lot of parents come in with a lot of guilt anyways. They're already feeling really badly about it. Oh, I'm so worried I did this. Or is it my fault because we have wine at dinner sometimes or whatever it is. Right. So I'm trying to one, do some reassurance. Again, there's not a one to one relations. Not one thing that you did has ruined your child forever. And I don't need you to lose sleep over this every night. I do want you to be mindful. And by the way, now we can move forward. Right? So this is not about drowning in guilt. That's not gonna help you. It's not gonna help your kid. I don't even think it's fair. You don't have to beat yourself up for something you didn't know or realize. Now that we know, how do we move forward when parents do get defensive? And I think this comes up more around, well, there are certain rules that are okay for me that aren't okay for my kid. So are you telling me that I have to act like I have the same rules that apply? Then we just have a conversation about values? You know, you're right, parent, it's your house. You don't have to have the same rules apply. And that's totally reasonable. I just want you to think about what's going to work practically for your kid. So if you want to keep having totally two separate rules between you and your kid, that's fine. Your kid's probably going to follow suit because you sort of shown them that's how to behave. And, and you might build resentment because now your kid thinks you're being totally ridiculous and unfair. So just pick your poison. You know what feels like the biggest priority? Is it getting on the same page with your kid? Is it trying to make a more skillful pathway for them? Or is it maintaining the strict hierarchy where we have different responsibilities? And if so that's okay, then we just can't get mad at our child when they sort of follow our lead. And that's a parent choice that they get to make. It's not my job. I want them to think through the pros and cons of their choices.

A (18:37)

Right. That's great advice. And so now we're sort of equipped. We're taking care of ourself. We understand sort of the basic principles. And then when a problem comes, I mean, what do we do? How do we understand behavior that suddenly breaks the family values and is causing stress to. To them and us? Like, what's. What's the first approach? If we find our kids smoking weed or, you know, they're getting in trouble at school, how do. How do we. How do we then tackle when we're in trouble territory?

B (19:06)

Well, I love how you phrased it, which was how do we understand the behavior? And that's really step one I want parents to think about. Why is this behavior happening? It didn't happen in a vacuum. So what's the context at play in my child's life that might have led to. To smoking in a room? Right. And maybe it was a total fluke, but probably not. Maybe they had a friend who was using and it seemed interesting or fun, or there was social pressure or they were really stressed or they got dumped and were moping. You know, there are a thousand things that at play. Maybe there's a learning disability and they're really overwhelmed at school and feel like they need to release. Right. If I can understand the context of the behavior, then I can be proactive for the next time and try to change the context. Right. If my kid's struggling in school and it's a consistent issue, maybe I need to think more about the supports they're getting. If they're really sensitive to peer stuff going on, maybe I need to work with them or have them work with a professional around how to relate more effectively with, you know, their friends, with their partners. Right. So if I just jump in to try to, you know, again, throw down the hammer on the substance use, I'm missing potential to stave off future concerns. Right, Right.

A (20:25)

And then we run the risk of moralizing a little bit too. Right. Like they're a bad kid as opposed to someone who has needs mental health support or is dealing with a difficult social environment.

B (20:35)

Totally. And I will say this is a total soapbox of mine. I really try to steer parents away from bad behavior. You know, it's. It was as a helpful choice or an unhelpful choice. It was, you know, A skillful, unskillful. Right. This isn't about your kid being bad as a human. This is about their brain responding to some stressor. So if I can manage the stressor or help my child manage the stressor, this. The stressor, awesome. We're in a much better place. I do also care about the outcome of their choice. So if they're, you know, running to this issue again and again and again, I don't have to completely turn a blind eye. You know, I'm allowed to have a consequence as a parent, but I want to be thinking about what's going to help my child build more skills. So it might not necessarily going to be, you know, I'm going to ground you for the next three months. Right. It might be. Okay. I see my kid is really stressed. They're clearly struggling, and they're turning to this coping, you know, option that I don't actually think is best for them. So instead, how can I incentivize them meeting with their therapist or communicating with me? Is there anything I can actually do to reward more skillful choices as a replacement and that doesn't involve me raining down punishment from on high? And now my kid's just really angry at me. Right.

A (22:04)

And you have a great chapter in your book on consequences that work, which you're sort of talking about how to get more of the carrot than the. Than the stick when. When you see them struggling. Yeah, I find that hard, though. I mean, the instinct for me is to get that big dad voice and to punish them and. And, you know, to send them to their room. It almost feels good to. To punish them.

B (22:23)

Yeah.

A (22:24)

And yet it does. Everyone ends up mad and then I have to go and everyone's apologizing. It's. It's a. It's always a mess.

B (22:30)

I'm really glad you said that, though, because this comes up. I just find often the punishment is more for our own sake than it is for our kids. We're just mad. We can't believe our kid did X. Right. So that punishment is often as much about us venting and feeling like we're in charge and have control of the situation as it is about changing that behavior for the kid. So again, it's sort of a pick your poison. If you're mad and you want to vent it by sending your kid to their room every night for the next three nights. Okay. But if your real goal was to help your kid make a better choice next time, that's actually probably not your most effective option. So then we have to own what our intention is. Right, right.

A (23:14)

And I think that's a shift over time. I think most of us, when we were young, our parents punished us, and that's sort of what we. We learned. I mean, I hear all the time from. From people my age that their parents, you know, their grandparents in this situation are like, why aren't you tougher on your kid or punishing them or what? No more spankings and none of this. It's a shift, and I think a good one, but one that takes some real attention and skill to make happen.

B (23:40)

Yep. And I do think sometimes that's a conversation or an exercise for parents to think through. Are they responding a certain way because that's truly how they think they should parent, or was it just a habit that they picked up from their own upbringing? Right. So much of we do what we do, it's just our brains on autopilot, repeating what we're used to. And sometimes that works. But a lot of times we accidentally veer off course or what worked for us as a kid doesn't work for our child. Different generation, different times, different personalities, different symptoms. Right. So we have to be a little more individualized in our approach. Which again, comes back to parents being a little more intentional about what their goal is and then what skills they can slot in to sort of meet that goal.

A (24:27)

And one of the big techniques you recommend is validation, which I know has a lot of different definitions and has its hashtag moments and misrepresentations. Tell me a little bit about what you mean and how that's best put into practice.

B (24:40)

Yeah, so when I say validation, I mean expressing to someone. You can see their perspective. You can see how someone in their shoes ended up where they ended up. And it's not agreeing with them. It's not condoning their choice. It's not even changing your household limit. All it is is saying, based on your experience, I can see a scenario where you ended up the way you did. And it's this incredibly beneficial tool that I think is one of the most underutilized. But it really goes a long way at building trust and communication. If you can talk to your kid and they can tell you things without worry about you judging them, being mad, freaking out, grounding them for those three months, they're much more likely to be honest with you, they're much more likely to talk to you. And that's what I need as a parent. Right. If I've shut the door, I can't help them at all.

A (25:36)

With substance use, though it can be hard because it feels weird to express understanding of how most people are saying, I gave birth to you. This is inconsistent with family values. How could you put yourself in a situation where you're smoking or drinking too much or doing X, Y and Z? And it's very hard to get from at least that initial instinct to validating or getting to a point of really feeding back to your child. You understand how they got there?

B (26:03)

Yeah. I think it goes back to that context piece. Right. Assuming that your child did not wake up in the morning going, what can I do to make my life harder today? Right. Or what can I do to make mom panic? Right. That's. No one's waking up with that, with that goal. So why is my child making this choice? Okay, well, let's think about it. Maybe my child's stressed. Maybe they're overwhelmed. Maybe they think that's the only thing that makes them feel better. Right. If I can keep that in mind, now it's a little easier for me to validate because it's not that I liked that choice, but if I can recognize that you truly believe the only thing that will grant you any relief is to use a substance, I can understand why your brain made that choice. I'm not happy with it. I have a different perspective. Right. I think there are other things that we. That we could do to help you. But if you really believe that is your only option, in fact, no wonder you made that choice. So when parents can get themselves to pause, look at that context now, validation becomes a little easier. I won't say it's easy, but easier.

A (27:13)

And I find that when you do that, sometimes you can get the change talk to come from the kid. Like, when you come down so hard, it gives them no opportunity but to be defensive. But if you can recognize that there's someone struggling in there, that that needs different type of supports and you understand how they got there. They're sometimes like, why aren't you punishing me more? Like, I. I should get out of this behavior. And. And then like, all right, let's. Then you can be more aligned with that part of them that. That wants the change, which sometimes you almost beat out of them, so to speak.

B (27:41)

Totally. And I. Look, I think that happens for adults, too, but especially in this teenage age where developmentally they're at a place where they're trying to be their own person and sort of differentiate themselves from you as the parent. If I come down really hard, their brain almost has no choice but to stake a firmer stance. And then I go harder and they go harder and I go harder and they go harder. Now we're on opposite sides. Right. If I can just hear them out and validate their experience, they don't need to stake that firmer and firmer stance. I've got a much higher likelihood of them coming in. And then further to your point of this change talk, if my kid really can see I get it, they're much more likely to listen to what I have to say if I don't get it, if I clearly have no idea what's going on, why would they listen to my solution? Mom doesn't understand, dad has no clue. So how could their solution be useful for me? So we have to leave a validation if we want any chance of movement.

A (28:43)

Right. And the hope is that that approach will move people closer to the finish line and it'll get them to a better spot. What do you do if things get really intense with either the mental health struggle or with the substance use, when they sort of need what feels like or may be sort of immediate intervention, yet they're really, you know, either really struggling in a way where they can't see that, then how does that parenting dynamic change? Or when does it you sort of exercise that more paternalistic maybe approach to really get them into the care they need?

B (29:13)

Sure. So the validation's never going to change. I want to be really clear about that. No matter what you add on, we're always keeping the validation piece because we always need that connection. But we talk with parents a lot about reducing accommodation. Meaning are there things that parents are doing purely to alleviate their kids distress or to save them from a consequence? Right. So you have a kid who's using more regularly and they get caught by a teacher or they have a bad grade, you know, are parents running in to, to run interference? Right. Are they writing a note, Are they saying it was a mistake? Or are they telling the kid to skip school? The day there's going to be a drug test before the state, you know, hockey final or whatever it is? Right. So if parents are accommodating, if they're changing the expectations or their own behavior to prevent their child from getting in trouble, it's going to be really hard for that kid's brain to have any motivation to change gears, they can sort of have their cake and eat it too. So we talk a lot with parents about, before you do anything, try to push your kid in one direction. You as the system need to stop making it quite as easy or at least quite as reinforcing. For them to engage in that behavior, and then the kid has some natural consequences that they have to live with. Right. They had to sit out from that game, or they really did fail that test, or their friend got super mad because something happened at the party when they were under the influence, and everyone's, you know, enraged at them. As hard as that is for me to watch, as a parent, I need my kid to experience the outcome of their actions if I want any chance of them moving, and then I don't mind. If parents want to incentivize engagement and care, engaging in care is really hard. We're basically asking that kid to do one thing that's totally terrifying for them to do. So I have no problem with that. They need extra allowance. They need to save up to something. They need a little extra support. They need to have a guarantee of decreased chores on the days where they go to therapy. Awesome. I have no problem with any of that. Again, we're just trying to make the problematic choice less rewarding for the. For the kid and make the more skillful choice an easier pathway for them.

A (31:35)

Right. I love that. And you have that great chapter on helpful for support for unhelpful accommodation, which. Which details that. Which is. Which is great. And, you know, I often, I mean, when folks are forced to seem like an addiction psychiatrist or. And they really don't want to be there, it can get into that punishment. You have to. But if you can even set up that treatment like you're saying, where there's incentivized to go, they're incentivized for negative urine screens, and you get away from that punishment. If you're seeing Avery and have the negative urine screen you have, you know, you can stay out later at night or you can have more allowance or more time with your girlfriend or whatever it may look like, that goes much, much farther. For sure.

B (32:14)

Totally. And then we're on the same team. You know, I just want this thing that you want. I want you to have more time with your girlfriend. I want you to be able to stay out later. Let's work together versus dad. You're so mean, Mom. You're the worst. You guys are ruining my life. You don't understand.

A (32:31)

Right. All right. What else should I ask about parenting that I haven't asked? What. What other important topics and. Or are we equipped to say what would Andrea do in any given situation?

B (32:41)

I do think the parent coping, you know, often deserves some time. Right. Parents tend to sort of white knuckle it through these things. We have a Thousand things going on. Right. So we sort of put our own needs last. And I want parents to really be proactive to think about how they're going to cope with the stressors. When you catch your kid with that substance, what are you going to do so that you can use validation so you can approach them with connection rather than immediately losing your cool. And so we're, we're working with parents to think about what are you going to tell yourself in that moment to stay more grounded? Are you going to remind yourself for just a kid? This stuff happens sometimes. Are you going to say, you know, we've been through harder things, we can get through this too? Like, what's that grounding statement going to be? I also want parents to recognize that as kids are going through stress, your body as a parent is going through stress. Like you're going to hit, fight or flight at some point. So physically, what are some things you can do to calm yourself down? Are you splashing cool water on your face? Are you listening to soothing music? I like the smell of vanilla. I have had several parents tell me they have adopted that now, so I feel very proud about that one. Go to your baking cabinet, smell vanilla. It's very soothing. Right. And are there other things that you usually do for stress relief that you can make use of in those tense moments with your kid? So if you really like exercise, cool. Can't do that. Wednesday at 9:30 when your kid sneaks in late. Right. But you can stretch for five minutes. You can plot out your next run or look at pictures from your last hike. So we're just trying to have parents plan to do something to regulate instead of just hoping they keep it together and then first.

A (34:37)

Right. That's great advice. So get vanilla and then definitely get your book. I think that'll those great exercises, that's

B (34:44)

actually all you need. Just listen to the audiobook and you'll be fine. No stress anymore.

A (34:48)

Exactly. Exactly. Well, thank you so much for coming today. I feel better equipped than ever and I really appreciate you taking the time and sharing your wisdom with us.

B (34:58)

Absolutely. Thank you for having me. It's always great to talk about these things.

A (35:00)

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