Thriving with Addiction with Dr. Jonathan Avery

Episode Summary: "Two Brothers, One Fight: Addiction and the Law"

Release Date: January 27, 2026
Guest: Dr. Joseph Avery, Assistant Professor, Miami Herbert Business School

Episode Overview

In this heartfelt and intellectually rich episode, Dr. Jonathan Avery invites his brother, Dr. Joseph Avery, for a candid exploration of the intersections between addiction, law, and stigma. Blending personal storytelling and current research, the episode dives into how lawyers and doctors perceive and interact with individuals struggling with substance use—and how these attitudes impact real-life outcomes, from the courtroom to the clinic. The brothers also discuss Joseph's pioneering work on the influence of technology and AI in legal settings, ending with reflections on how both fields can move toward compassion and evidence-based approaches.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Sibling Dynamics and Personal Background

• Timestamps: 00:25–06:09
  • Jonathan and Joseph reminisce about growing up together, sharing anecdotes of competitiveness and support—including a memorable footrace during med school.
  • Joseph describes his unconventional career path: philosophy major, law school, practicing business law, then transitioning to psychology for a PhD focused on law and technology.
  • Quote:

    "This counts as a weekend call... But I think our relationship has helped in that obviously we were very close growing up... I think that helped solidify the relationship that is sort of the adult relationship between us."
    — Dr. Jonathan Avery [02:07]

2. Motivation for Studying Law and Transition to Psychology

• Timestamps: 04:37–07:39
  • Joseph shares why law appealed to him, how philosophy played a role, and transitions to describing the leap from practicing law to a PhD, driven by emergent interests in technology and perception.
  • He discusses working at Columbia's Medical Center, then pursuing doctoral research at Princeton on intersections of law, technology, and human perception.

3. Exploring Stigma: Lawyers’ Attitudes toward Clients with Substance Use

• Timestamps: 07:39–14:37
  • Joseph explains the research he led with Jonathan on stigma among lawyers, paralleling previous research on clinicians’ attitudes toward patients with substance use disorders.
  • Findings from a large national study of ~2,000 attorneys (mostly public defenders) showed a strong correlation: harsher attitudes led to assumptions that clients would reoffend.
  • Surprisingly, public defenders had more positive attitudes, possibly due to greater exposure and commitment—echoing trends among specialist doctors.
  • Quote:

    "As attitudes deteriorated for the attorneys that had worse attitudes, their predictions... that these people they were representing would reoffend... went way up."
    — Dr. Joseph Avery [11:08]

  • Quote:

    "Public defenders... their attitudes were actually better towards them... So you might expect the opposite."
    — Dr. Joseph Avery [13:04]

4. Disease Model of Addiction and Impact on Attitudes

• Timestamps: 14:37–19:32
  • The brothers discuss their second major study: how legal and medical professionals’ beliefs about addiction (e.g., disease model vs. moral failing) shape their interactions and empathy.
  • Those endorsing the disease model typically had more compassionate attitudes; those who saw addiction as a moral failing viewed clients and patients more negatively.
  • The same patterns held in medicine and law, suggesting these beliefs deeply affect outcomes.
  • Quote:

    "The more they believed that it was a failure of will or a moral failing, the worse attitudes became. And it was a pretty stark difference."
    — Dr. Joseph Avery [18:36]

5. Demographics and Bias in Legal and Medical Professions

• Timestamps: 19:56–21:08
  • The study highlighted a demographic skew: legal professionals, particularly defense attorneys, are predominantly older, white males. This may influence the institutional attitudes and resistance to newer, more compassionate models.

6. Reforming Legal Approaches to Addiction

• Timestamps: 21:08–24:31
  • The discussion shifts to practical applications: criminalizing addiction versus treating it as a health issue.
  • Both express concern over societal punitive responses and advocate for treatment-oriented interventions.
  • Lessons from collaborative and peer-led recovery approaches abroad are highlighted as models for reform.
  • Quote:

    "Prison for substance users is definitely a dead end... It just seems counterintuitive that something like this would happen."
    — Dr. Joseph Avery [21:28]

7. Intersection of Law, Business, AI, and Human Perception

• Timestamps: 24:31–29:04
  • Joseph details his current work at the University of Miami, exploring how AI and technology influence human legal decision-making.
  • He offers vivid examples: mock studies showing people judge AI-caused accidents (like a self-driving car hitting a stop sign) as more serious than identical human-caused ones.
  • This research continues into IP law, patent infringement, and broader legal standards.

8. Public Perception, Fear, and Penalization of AI

• Timestamps: 29:04–31:56
  • Discusses emerging "speciesism"—humans over-penalizing non-human actors (like AI) when mistakes happen, especially in subjective or ethically charged contexts.
  • Joseph notes it's a moving target: as AI becomes more ingrained in daily life, perceptions and biases may evolve rapidly.
  • Quote:

    "There are fears and we'll over penalize machines and AI in different circumstances, but the circumstances matter."
    — Dr. Joseph Avery [29:52]

9. Impact of AI in Medicine—A Physician’s Perspective

• Timestamps: 31:01–32:54
  • Jonathan shares that many doctors embrace AI as an assistive tool, with less anxiety than other sectors. Its potential to improve efficiency and care is seen as positive, though broader societal impacts remain uncertain.
  • Joseph anticipates running recurring studies to observe how changing exposure and acceptance of AI might alter attitudes over time.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Sibling Humor:

  "This counts as a check-in call."
  — Dr. Joseph Avery, playfully justifying the interview as family time [02:05]

• Research Crossover:

  "We had a couple of articles early on, actually a number of them... our work collided."
  — Dr. Jonathan Avery, describing their collaboration [07:39]

• Reality Check for Professionals:

  "If you're doing worse than lawyers, it's not a great look for doctors as it relates to attitudes around the health condition."
  — Dr. Jonathan Avery [20:48]

• On Systemic Reform:

  "We spent a lot of money trying to punish substance use out of people and I don't think it's got us very far."
  — Dr. Jonathan Avery [23:17]

Timestamps for Important Segments

• Sibling History & Career Paths: 00:25–07:39
• Lawyer Attitudes Toward Substance Use Clients: 07:39–14:37
• Disease Model Study—Lawyer and Doctor Attitudes: 14:37–19:32
• Implications for Justice System and Healthcare: 19:32–24:31
• Technology, AI, and Legal Perception: 24:31–29:04
• Public Perceptions and Policy Thoughts on AI: 29:04–31:56
• AI in Medicine: 31:01–32:54

Conclusion

This episode offers a thoughtful blend of professional expertise and genuine familial warmth while illuminating how entrenched attitudes shape the fate of people with addiction in legal and healthcare settings. The brothers’ research underscores the urgent need for shifting societal and institutional mindsets—from punitive responses to informed compassion—while also peeking into the future of justice and mental health care in an age of AI.