Does America Need a Hero?

Summary

Throughline Podcast Summary: "Does America Need a Hero?"

Release Date: July 3, 2025
Host: Rund Abdelfatah and Ramtin Arablouei
Description: In this episode, "Does America Need a Hero?", Throughline delves into the evolution of Captain America as a symbol of American ideals. Hosted by NPR's Rund Abdelfatah and Ramtin Arablouei, the episode examines how this iconic superhero has mirrored the nation's values, crises, and identity shifts from World War II through the Cold War and into modern times.

---

1. Introduction: The Birth of Captain America

The episode opens by setting the historical backdrop of World War II, highlighting the emergence of Adolf Hitler's aggression in Europe (00:23). Amidst this turmoil, the narrative introduces Steve Rogers, a young, scrawny New Yorker eager to serve his country but repeatedly rejected by the military due to physical ailments (00:35-01:10). Undeterred, Rogers is eventually selected for the Super Soldier program, transforming him into Captain America—a symbol of American strength and justice (01:36-02:35).

Steve Rogers / Captain America: "I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America." (00:35)

2. The Golden Age: Fighting Fascism

Captain America's first appearances in comic books during the early 1940s solidified his role as America's protector against fascism. The iconic first issue, released a year before Pearl Harbor, depicted Captain America punching Adolf Hitler, encapsulating the fight against tyranny (09:00-09:25). Created by Joe Simon and Jack Kirby, both Jewish creators, Captain America was a deliberate response to the rising threat of Nazism and served as a tool to bolster American morale and interventionist sentiments.

Historical Narrator: "For the first time in our history, we began mobilizing an army while still at peace." (09:33)

3. The Cold War Era: New Enemies and Censorship

Post-World War II, as the United States emerged as a global superpower, the focus of threats shifted from external fascists to internal communists. Captain America's adversaries evolved to reflect this change, portraying communism as the new menace (16:25-17:08). However, this period also saw the advent of the Comics Code—a self-imposed censorship system limiting the portrayal of violence, authority, and social issues within comics (19:20-20:00). The Senate hearings on comic books, spearheaded by Frederick Wertham's "Seduction of the Innocent," painted comics as harmful to youth, leading to a decline in the genre's popularity.

Frederick Wertham: "I hate to say that, Senator, but I think Hitler was a beginner compared to the comic book industry." (19:00)

4. The 1960s Identity Crisis: Social Upheaval and Redefinition

As America entered the 1960s—a decade marked by civil rights movements, the Vietnam War, and generational shifts—Captain America found himself struggling to stay relevant. The character, initially a paragon of unwavering patriotism, faced an identity crisis amid a society questioning authority and advocating for social change (06:20-15:59).

Stan Lee, recognizing the need for evolution, began to infuse Captain America with more human flaws and contemporary relevance. This shift was evident when Captain America took on roles beyond fighting clear-cut villains, such as becoming a teacher and addressing complex societal issues (15:22-29:35).

Steve Rogers / Captain America: "I've been getting restless and I've got to go back to work." (15:35)

5. Reimagining Heroism: Nomad and Anti-Establishment Themes

In the tumultuous wake of events like the Kent State shootings and escalating Vietnam War protests, writers like Steve Englehart redefined Captain America to align with the anti-establishment sentiment of the youth. Englehart's storyline, "The Secret Empire," portrayed Captain America confronting corruption within the government, ultimately leading to his disillusionment and transformation into Nomad—a hero without a country (37:08-50:07).

Steve Rogers / Captain America: "I'm the one who's seen everything Captain America fought for become a cynical sham." (49:55)

This portrayal challenged the traditional image of Captain America as an unerring symbol of American values, instead presenting him as a nuanced figure capable of critiquing his own nation's flaws.

6. Legacy and Modern Reflections: Continual Evolution

The episode concludes by reflecting on Captain America's enduring legacy as a "majestic generality"—a versatile symbol adaptable to the nation's evolving self-image. From battling Nazis to confronting corporate malfeasance and modern-day terrorism, Captain America's character has continually been reshaped to reflect contemporary societal values and conflicts. Recent iterations include diverse representations, such as Black Captain Americas and collaborations with international heroes, highlighting ongoing debates about patriotism, identity, and morality.

Comic Book Expert: "You can make of him what you will, but it is supposed to be majestic." (52:55)

Conclusion: Captain America as America's Moral Compass

"Does America Need a Hero?" underscores Captain America as more than a fictional superhero; he is a reflection of America's aspirations, dilemmas, and moral compass. Through examining his transformations across decades, the episode illuminates how popular culture serves as a mirror to national identity, grappling with both idealism and disillusionment.

---

Notable Quotes:

• Steve Rogers / Captain America: "I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America." (00:35)

• Steve Rogers / Captain America: "I came here to save blood, not to shed it." (05:05)

• Steve Rogers / Captain America: "Do I know whose side to take?" (33:49)

• Steve Rogers / Captain America: "I'm the one who's seen everything Captain America fought for become a cynical sham." (49:55)

• Comic Book Expert: "You can make of him what you will, but it is supposed to be majestic." (52:55)

---

Key Insights:

• Symbolism and Adaptation: Captain America's transformation from a World War II icon to a symbol grappling with modern societal issues reflects America's own journey through peace and conflict, progress and prejudice.

• Censorship and Creativity: The establishment of the Comics Code significantly impacted the portrayal of superheroes, leading to more sanitized and less socially critical narratives until creators like Stan Lee pushed boundaries in the 1960s.

• Cultural Reflection: The evolving identity of Captain America serves as a lens through which to view changing American values, from unwavering patriotism to a more critical and introspective stance on national identity.

• Legacy of Inclusion: Efforts to diversify Captain America's representation illustrate ongoing attempts to make the character resonate with a broader, more inclusive American audience.

---

Conclusion:

Throughline's "Does America Need a Hero?" offers a comprehensive exploration of Captain America as a dynamic symbol of American ideals. By tracing his journey through historical epochs, the episode highlights how this superhero embodies the nation's conflicts, aspirations, and continual quest for a just identity.

Transcript

[Sponsor Announcement]

This message comes from NPR sponsor Sierra Business Connections. Start with a conversation. Sierra is the AI platform for building better, more human customer experiences. Fast answers with no canned responses, hold music or frustration. Visit Sierra AI to learn more.

[Historical Narrator]

While most of you were playing ball in the sandlocks, this war started. Adolf Hitler's all out attack on Poland makes the long dreaded European war a certainty.

[Steve Rogers / Captain America]

I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America.

[Narrative Voice]

Steve Rogers was a scrawny kid growing up in New York and to the.

[Steve Rogers / Captain America]

Republic for which it stands.

[Narrative Voice]

World War II was going on. The United States had not yet been involved.

[Historical Narrator]

Adolf Hitler's mechanized forces are racing toward power as French resistance collapses.

[Narrative Voice]

There was a lot of unrest going on in America of what was happening over in Europe and across the globe.

[Historical Narrator]

We heard that a thing called the Nazi party had taken over.

[Narrative Voice]

He wanted to do what he could.

[Historical Narrator]

A chance to help the Army Air forces throw a punch that'll knock Hitler and Tojo bow legged.

[Narrative Voice]

He tried to enlist but was rejected for all types of purposes. One nation indivisible, his size to having asthma, flat feet, with liberty, he just couldn't be enlisted.

[Steve Rogers / Captain America]

And justice for all.

[Narrative Voice]

But that wasn't going to deter him. Eventually this caught the eye of the US military. And so they were going through their own experiments at the time to develop what is known as the Super Soldier. They approached Steve Rogers and said, listen, you have the heart. Would you be willing to try to do this experiment for your government? And of course he said, absolutely.

[Historical Narrator]

Don't be afraid son. You're about to become one of America's saviors.

[Cultural Historian]

Calmly, the young man allows himself to.

[Historical Narrator]

Be inoculated with strange seething liquid.

[Cultural Historian]

There it is done.

[Historical Narrator]

He's changing. We shall call you Captain America.

[Comic Book Expert]

First issue of Captain America. It's a million seller.

[Cultural Historian]

As the ruthless warmongers of Europe focus their eyes on a peace loving America.

[Historical Narrator]

The youth of our country heed the.

[Cultural Historian]

Call to arm for defense.

[Comic Book Expert]

Lots and lots of people are reading comics.

[Cultural Historian]

But great as the danger of foreign attack is the threat of invasion from within.

[Comic Book Expert]

Certainly once you get into the war, tens of thousands of issues of comics are going out to GIs around the world.

[Cultural Historian]

Death to the dogs of democracy.

[Steve Rogers / Captain America]

Come on out you skunk. East and west, our nation is menaced as never before.

[Podcast Host]

And inside the Captain America comic books is this blonde haired, blue eyed, white all American super soldier. He wears a red, white and blue costume that looks like a reimagined American flag. A big star on his chest, stripes tight against bulging muscles engineered by The US Government. His power is his superhuman strength. He carries no weapon, only a shield, and he fights only when he must.

[Comic Book Expert]

He's not someone who has always known power, so he is someone who knows what it is like to be the one getting sand kicked in their face. He's on the side of the little guy.

[Steve Rogers / Captain America]

Time for Captain America to go to work.

[Historical Narrator]

Bam.

[Podcast Host]

Many of us know Captain America from the many Marvel movies he's in. But let's face it. Out of all the superheroes, he doesn't have the coolest superpower. He can't fly or shoot webs or turn invisible. But what he does have going for him, aside from his super strength, are his morals.

[Narrative Voice]

He's a character that all the other characters in Marvel look up to when they don't know what's the right thing to do.

[Podcast Host]

The right thing to do?

[Steve Rogers / Captain America]

I came here to save blood, not to shed it.

[Podcast Host]

In some ways, Steve Rogers, AKA Captain America, is someone many of us might want to be or might want to believe in. Kind of like America itself. We want to live in a place that stands up to bullies, that knows right from wrong and calls out injustice. And because Steve Rogers is this scrawny kid behind the mask, maybe he's someone we all can be.

[Comic Book Expert]

You are never gonna be Superman unless you suddenly find a lot of money from somewhere. You are never going to be Batman. But. But there's always that chance, isn't there, that you could one day be Captain America.

[Steve Rogers / Captain America]

Justice will always trust.

[Podcast Host]

You, me, any one of us. We could be the good guy doing the right thing. But what happens when what's right isn't so clear? How does a comic book hero designed to represent America's values survive in a changing world? I'm Rund Abdelfattah.

[Historical Narrator]

And I'm Ramtin Arablouei.

[Podcast Host]

Coming up, producer Devin Kadayama brings us the story of Captain America's identity crisis and what happens next.

[Historical Narrator]

I'm Abdul from Montreal, Canada. Captain America, he's a child of Irish immigrants, and that's really why I relate to him as a character, as an immigrant myself. Coming who's born for parents from Senegal, taking on the American image, in a sense, connecting to my American culture. You're listening to throughline from NPR.

[Sponsor Announcement]

This message comes from HomeTap. With a home equity investment from Hometap, you get access to your home equity in cash without monthly payments to use for whatever you'd like, from paying off debt to making renovations or handling emergency expenses. Receive your funds in just a few weeks. Start pursuing your financial goals and start getting more out of life. See if you pre qualify for an [e-mail] that's hometab.com this message comes from.

Thuma Create your oasis with Thuma, a modern design company that specializes in furniture and home goods by stripping away everything but the essential. Thuma makes elevated beds with premium materials and intentional details with clean lines, subtle curves and minimalist style. The Thuma Bed collection is available in four signature finishes to match any design aesthetic. To get $100 towards your first bed purchase, go to Thuma Co N this.

Message comes from Strawberry Me. You've worked hard to get where you are, but what's next? Strawberry Me Career coaching helps professionals like you take the next big step with confidence by matching you with a certified career coach who understands your goals and challenges. This isn't just advice, it's a personalized, results driven approach to uncover hidden strengths, overcome obstacles and accelerate your career growth. Visit Strawberry Me NPR to claim your $50 credit.

[Cultural Historian]

Part 1 Punching Nazis here's the front cover. Issue number one of Captain America Cap gives Hitler a right cross while Nazis shoot their pistols. There's a Tommy gun too, a ricochet off Captain America's red, white and blue shield as if he's untouchable. It's December 1940.

[Comic Book Expert]

So you can see very clearly this front cover is making the case that we Americans can't stay out of this war. It is going to come to us eventually.

[Cultural Historian]

This is Michael Goodrum.

[Comic Book Expert]

I am the author of Superheroes and American Self Image Image From War to Watergate.

[Cultural Historian]

He's also a cultural history professor at Canterbury Christ Church University in England.

[Comic Book Expert]

So the first issue of Captain America Comics comes out a year before Pearl Harbor.

[Historical Narrator]

For the first time in our history, we began mobilizing an army while still at peace.

[Comic Book Expert]

The US doesn't have troops on the ground, but Roosevelt runs in 1940 on the platform of being the arsenal of democracy.

[Historical Narrator]

We must be the great arsenal of democracy. For us, this is an emergency as.

[Comic Book Expert]

Serious as war itself, supplying and supporting, but not direct involvement.

[Cultural Historian]

Many Americans, following the Depression and the brutality of World War I, don't want to go to war. The US military is kind of small and the war hasn't reached US Shores yet.

[Comic Book Expert]

But that wasn't enough for some people.

[Cultural Historian]

People like Joe Simon and Jack Kirby, the creators of Captain America.

[Comic Book Expert]

Both Simon and Kirby are Jewish. They know what is happening in Europe. They can't go over and fight, but they need to do something to try and get people involved. As Joe Simon says, that you were always on the lookout for the next great villain. And it was becoming hard to think of a worse villain than Adolf Hitler.

[Historical Narrator]

Adolf Hitler.

[Cultural Historian]

That first issue of Captain America, the one where Cap's punching Adolf Hitler right in the face, sold around a million copies. And the audience was probably a lot bigger than that, since comic books would get passed around like a Netflix login. It was mostly kids reading comics, but since they were sold on newsstands and in drug stores, a lot of people would have seen that front cover, including a group of Nazi sympathizers who terrorized Simon and Kirby. And it was in that moment, around the time the first issue came out, that a guy looking for work got a gig helping out.

[Historical Narrator]

Stan Lee is probably the best known figure in American comic books ever.

[Cultural Historian]

Stan Lee went on to help create hundreds of superheroes, iconic ones like Spider Man, Black Panther, the Hulk, Iron Man, X Men.

[Historical Narrator]

Stan really is kind of a Walt Disney kind of figure. Strangely enough, Disney now owns Marvel.

[Cultural Historian]

This is Danny Fingerroth. He worked with Stan Lee as a comic book writer and editor for years.

[Historical Narrator]

He also wrote A Marvelous Life, the Amazing Story of Stan Lee.

[Cultural Historian]

So Stan got this job as an assistant to Simon and Kirby, running errands, proofreading the background stuff. But then in just the third issue, they ask him to write a short storyline for Captain America. It's only a couple of pages, but in it, you start to see iconic pieces of Cap's identity being born.

[Comic Book Expert]

Captain America throws his shield.

[Cultural Historian]

He hurls the spinning disk across the room, knocking a knife out of a bad guy's hand.

[Comic Book Expert]

What an iconic thing that would go on to become.

[Cultural Historian]

And all of a sudden, Cap's main prop, this tool for defense.

[Comic Book Expert]

You can hide behind the shield.

[Cultural Historian]

Great becomes a weapon. And Stanley would get more chances to write over the next year as Captain America became this Nazi fighting machine. And then December 1941, the US enters the war. The following year, Stan enlists in the army, working in military communications. But on the side, he keeps writing Captain America.

[Steve Rogers / Captain America]

Today, a terrible menace is closing in upon us from all sides. It is the menace of fascism.

[Historical Narrator]

One of these two worlds must break asunder.

[Steve Rogers / Captain America]

Things are in turmoil in the East. A bold stroke would put power in the hands of anybody.

[Cultural Historian]

Cap fights Nazi saboteurs and Japanese soldiers. And I'm not gonna lie, the art didn't age well. There were a lot of racist stereotypes. But patriotism sold well during the war. Stan even included not so subtle messages for Americans to sacrifice for the greater good.

[Steve Rogers / Captain America]

You know that it's the Duty of every American to buy war stamps and bonds.

[Cultural Historian]

And then, as the allied powers start winning the war, something strange happens. The popularity of superheroes begins to fade.

[Comic Book Expert]

It's difficult to have superheroes fighting the war. When you are fighting the war, your brother is fighting the war, your dad, your uncle, Real people are fighting and winning. 1944. The tide is turning.

[Historical Narrator]

We shall completely destroy Japan's power to make war.

[Cultural Historian]

And then In August of 1945, the US drops two atomic bombs on Japan, One on Hiroshima.

[Historical Narrator]

If they do not now accept our terms, they may expect a reign of ruin from the air, the like of which has never been seen on this earth.

[Cultural Historian]

And then a few days later, on Nagasaki, Japan agrees to surrender and the war ends. After the war, America emerges as a global superpower. There's relief, there's a little bit of optimism. But for Captain America, there are some big questions about what comes next. Because what does a superhero engineered by the US military do when the war is over? Who does he fight? What's his role in the country? And what is America?

[Historical Narrator]

Captain America, without a big war that the country is involved in, almost becomes directionless.

[Steve Rogers / Captain America]

I've been getting restless and I've got to go back to work.

[Cultural Historian]

So in 1946, Stan tries to address the private life of Captain America.

[Steve Rogers / Captain America]

I'll take a run down to this school.

[Cultural Historian]

Cap becomes a teacher, but he also goes on to fight criminals and monsters. And he doesn't have a clear enemy or purpose. The genres of comics were also expanding. Romance, western crime. At one point in 1949, Captain America gets into horror and is brought down to hell by this satanic dude. Very weird. But to be relevant again, Captain America needs a worthy enemy. One that the entire country can rally behind. And then the cold war.

[Historical Narrator]

We all know the atomic bomb is very dangerous. In recognizing a communist, physical appearance counts for nothing since it may be used against us. We must get ready for it. Freedom loving peoples all over the world stand alert to the menace of communism.

[Narrative Voice]

Captain America was no longer needed to fight Nazis or to fight the Japanese army or saboteurs.

[Cultural Historian]

This is Rick Verbanas, co host of the Captain America comic book fans podcast.

[Narrative Voice]

Now there was a new villain, now there was a new threat. And that was communism.

[Cultural Historian]

So in 1954, Cap's like, all right, I got it.

[Comic Book Expert]

He comes back as Captain Commismasher.

[Cultural Historian]

Comedy smasher. And he's fighting shady looking dudes. But he's also fighting guys like an all American star, athlete and scholar.

[Comic Book Expert]

The kind of boy that all good American boys should be looking up to.

[Historical Narrator]

Hmm.

[Steve Rogers / Captain America]

Reminds me of someone who's secretly a.

[Cultural Historian]

Communist spy trying to influence the young minds of Americans.

[Steve Rogers / Captain America]

Cobra, you have done a fine job all these years.

[Historical Narrator]

Yes. Are you ready? I am, comrade.

[Comic Book Expert]

He decides he's going to blow up the UN building in New York.

[Historical Narrator]

Give up the un. Let each country have peace or war as it wishes.

[Steve Rogers / Captain America]

He's a Red spy and we've got to prove it.

[Cultural Historian]

Cap stops the bomb from exploding, takes down the spy who admits I work for the Reds.

[Comic Book Writer]

It's all a communist plot.

[Cultural Historian]

And at the end of the story, Captain America says Americans play not to.

[Steve Rogers / Captain America]

Win necessarily, but for the sake of good sportsmanship and fair play, which Nazis and Reds know nothing about at all.

[Comic Book Expert]

So again, it's that kind of conflation of fascism and communism.

[Cultural Historian]

But these ideologies are different. Fighting Communism wasn't the same as fighting fascism and the Nazis. The enemy during the Cold War wasn't as clear and wasn't even necessarily over there. It could be within the country itself.

[Historical Narrator]

Even if there are only one Communist in the State Department, that could still be one communist too many.

[Cultural Historian]

By the early 1950s, all kinds of people were being labeled Communists. The Red scare, the Lavender scare. Hollywood had its blacklists. It was a witch hunt.

[Historical Narrator]

Don't you think the American people are entitled to know whether you admit or deny that you're a member of the Communist Party?

[Cultural Historian]

And pretty soon in 1954, comic books would be put on trial too.

[Historical Narrator]

Comic books are an important contributing factor to in many cases of juvenile delinquency.

[Cultural Historian]

At the same time the McCarthy hearings against communism were happening, the Senate also held hearings concerning the influence of comic books on kids.

[Comic Book Expert]

Star witness for the prosecution, as it were, is Frederick Wertham, a German born.

[Cultural Historian]

Psychiatrist who was generally considered a progressive thinker. He also wrote a book called Seduction of the Innocent.

[Historical Narrator]

I hate to say that, Senator, but I think Hitler was a beginner compared to the comic book industry.

[Comic Book Expert]

He turns up with a whip that he's bought out of the back of one of the comics.

[Cultural Historian]

And his message that comic books are damaging the minds of children because of their gruesome images, their violence and sexual or racist depictions.

[Comic Book Expert]

Not very many people come to the defense of comics.

[Cultural Historian]

And in the middle of these Senate hearings, Captain America fades away and a lot of other comics do too.

[Comic Book Expert]

The Senate hearings make comics toxic. No one wants to go near comics after this.

[Cultural Historian]

Amidst these hearings, fearing federal regulation, the comic book industry established its own censorship system known as the Comics Code. It would limit what comics could do. No sex, drugs or anything bad about authority.

[Comic Book Expert]

Good always has to be shown to win. And you know, good is defined as the law, politicians all the way up to the very elite of the American.

[Cultural Historian]

Legal and political system, in other words, the establishment.

[Comic Book Expert]

It becomes very difficult for comics to do any social criticism.

[Cultural Historian]

But the United States was going through its own identity crisis, and soon the counterculture of the 1960s would start clashing with the establishment and Captain America would return. That's coming up. Hi, this is Leah Hager and I am calling from Fort Collins, Colorado, just.

[Podcast Host]

To rave about Throughline.

[Historical Narrator]

Every episode I listen to is, I.

[Sponsor Announcement]

Don'T know, it sounds extreme, but maybe.

[Historical Narrator]

A little life changing, especially episodes that touch on the heart of issues that.

[Cultural Historian]

Are going on in our world today. And you're listening to throughline from NPR.

[Sponsor Announcement]

This message comes from BetterHelp. Workplace stress can be difficult to manage and a holiday can help, but it isn't a long term solution. Therapy can help you navigate whatever challenges the workday or any day might bring. Take the steps to care for yourself and relieve stress with BetterHelp, the largest online therapy provider in the world. Visit betterhelp.com NPR for 10% off your first month.

This message comes from NPR sponsor 1Password Protect your digital life with 1Password. If you're tired of family members constantly texting you for the passwords to streaming services, 1Password lets you securely share or remove access to logins access from any device anytime. 1Password lets you securely switch between iPhone, Android, Mac and PC with convenient features like autofill for quick sign ins. Right now, get a free two week trial for you and your [e-mail] NPR.

This message comes from Warby Parker. What makes a great pair of glasses at Warby Parker? It's all the invisible extras without the extra cost, like free adjustments for life. Find your [e-mail] or visit one of their hundreds of stores around the country.

[Cultural Historian]

Part 2Aman out of Time.

[Narrative Voice]

So in this block of ice is just a dark silhouette of a figure.

[Historical Narrator]

A shadow.

[Narrative Voice]

But you don't know who it is. And it's starting to slowly dissolve. And then we see a bit of a hand poke out of the ice, a human bare hand slowly melting and floating away.

[Cultural Historian]

In 1964, Iron man, giant Man, Wasp and Thor, the Avengers are cruising in their submarine and they find this body suspended in animation, locked in an iceberg, dissolving in the ocean.

[Narrative Voice]

They pull him out of the water into the submarine.

[Cultural Historian]

Who can he be?

[Narrative Voice]

And realize, wait, it's the famous red.

[Steve Rogers / Captain America]

White and blue garb of Captain America. He's breathing.

[Cultural Historian]

His eyes, they're flying, flickering.

[Narrative Voice]

It's him.

[Cultural Historian]

This is Rick Verbonas, co host of the Captain America Comic Book Fans podcast. He says, after the comics code is established, DC Comics starts reimagining some of their legacy superheroes. And Marvel responds by creating new superheroes of their own. But this time, they make them more reflective, flawed, human. And superheroes start making a comeback. So Stan Lee over at Marvel says, which of our legacy characters should we bring back?

[Narrative Voice]

Stan Lee was the ultimate marketing guru.

[Cultural Historian]

And when Captain America reappears in 1964, frozen in ice, Stan told fans on the inside cover of the comic book that Cap's comeback was because they demanded it.

[Narrative Voice]

Maybe that's true. A tale destined to become a magnificent milestone in the Marvel age of comics, bringing you the great superhero which your wonderful avalanche of fan mail demanded. You're getting a heavy sales pitch here.

[Historical Narrator]

Stan somehow made this appearance of Captain America the most important event of my life.

[Cultural Historian]

Again, Danny Fingerroth, the author of A Marvelous Life, the Amazing Story of Stan lee.

[Historical Narrator]

I bought three copies. That's right. I invested 36 cents in that issue.

[Cultural Historian]

Avengers number four. Captain America's been frozen in ice for about 20 years, since the end of World War II. And when he thaws out, the Avengers bring him to New York.

[Narrative Voice]

He sees the differences in the styles.

[Steve Rogers / Captain America]

The fashions, the hairdos.

[Cultural Historian]

He sees two women with their hair piled high in beehives.

[Steve Rogers / Captain America]

How different they are.

[Narrative Voice]

The cars are different.

[Cultural Historian]

He's looking at a small green convertible.

[Narrative Voice]

The New York skyline is different.

[Cultural Historian]

And later, at a hotel, he's watching TV for the first time.

[Steve Rogers / Captain America]

What happens next?

[Narrative Voice]

And he really is truly a man out of time.

[Steve Rogers / Captain America]

I don't belong in this age. In this year, no place for me.

[Cultural Historian]

Tectonic generational shifts were happening in American society. The civil rights movement was going on, the women's rights movement. The president had been assassinated. The war in Vietnam was escalating. I mean, we were building rocket ships to the moon.

[Historical Narrator]

Cap became this, like, Hamlet kind of character, just always with his hand stapled to his forehead in grief and anguish.

[Narrative Voice]

Stan Lee is making Steve Rogers a.

[Cultural Historian]

Human Steve Rogers, that scrawny kid behind Captain America's heroic mask.

[Steve Rogers / Captain America]

All my life, I've tried to find a place for Steve Rogers. But he still lives under the more colorful shadow of Captain America.

[Narrative Voice]

Steve questions his place in the world.

[Steve Rogers / Captain America]

Am I destined to go through life with no real identity of my own?

[Narrative Voice]

His place in modern society.

[Steve Rogers / Captain America]

This is a new world, a New age, an age of atomic power, space exploration, social upheaval. And yet an age over which the threat of war hangs heavy once again.

[Narrative Voice]

And he questions whether or not he's a relic.

[Steve Rogers / Captain America]

And so long as danger beckons, there's still a need for an old relic like Captain America.

[Cultural Historian]

And it wasn't just Stan and Cap who were thinking about the character's identity. Marvel was also printing letters from fans inside the comic books where they would debate who Cap should be, what he should stand for, and really what does it mean to be an American hero.

[Steve Rogers / Captain America]

His roots belong in the past, not now.

[Narrative Voice]

There was a lot of different letters that came in that were basically saying the same thing.

[Cultural Historian]

No one but a dreamer can think the world is safe and peaceful.

[Narrative Voice]

We need Captain America in our world today.

[Historical Narrator]

Comics are based on patriotism.

[Narrative Voice]

And then others were like, he no longer serves a purpose in this world.

[Comic Book Writer]

The dear captain is far from a war lover. Cap is a war lover.

[Narrative Voice]

We don't need a patriotic symbol.

[Historical Narrator]

I see nothing wrong with Captain America.

[Sponsor Announcement]

Being a conservative or a lover of America.

[Cultural Historian]

You guys know that Cap is a.

[Comic Book Writer]

Defender of the establishment.

[Cultural Historian]

Most Captain America comics in the late 1960s had at least one letter arguing about Captain America's identity. It became known as the patriotism centered controversy.

[Historical Narrator]

Captain America is not a superhero. He's a super American. Stan saw things were changing, and he also saw that his audience was changing. So it was a big problem for somebody in entertainment like that. You know, if you take a stand on an issue, you potentially lose half your audience.

[Cultural Historian]

But it became harder for Stan to ignore his audience, especially since he'd been touring colleges and speaking with students who were talking to him about war and peace and civil rights just as much as they wanted to talk about his comics. So he tries to respond in different ways. He creates the Falcon, one of Marvel's first black superheroes, and the Falcon is introduced in a Captain America comic. But it's trickier than that, because what does an uber patriot from an older generation think about? Things like racism and segregation or the war in Vietnam? Which side does he fall on?

[Comic Book Expert]

Superheroes are good at a lot of things, but certainly in the 60s, they're not great at complex interventions.

[Cultural Historian]

Michael Goodrum wrote about this in his book Superheroes and American Self Image. And he says one place where it gets complex for Captain America is on college campuses.

[Comic Book Expert]

Captain America engages with two different student protests in two different ways.

[Cultural Historian]

It's 1969, and by now there have been a lot of high profile protests on college campuses over civil rights. Gay rights, women's rights, and of course, the war in Vietnam. And Captain America is still wondering what his role in society is.

[Steve Rogers / Captain America]

If I gave up this life, what would it really matter?

[Cultural Historian]

But he's Cap.

[Comic Book Expert]

So he's sent kind of undercover as a gym teacher to investigate why a student leader. He's suddenly become a rabble rouser.

[Historical Narrator]

Listen, are you with me?

[Narrative Voice]

He sees that there's these protests that seem to be getting a little out of hand. A student is kind of roughing around a professor.

[Cultural Historian]

The student is Mart Baker, our most articulate, most respected student leader.

[Comic Book Expert]

It turns out that Mart Baker has been brainwashed.

[Cultural Historian]

And another student passing as a radical hippie is doing the brainwashing on behalf of a supervillain.

[Historical Narrator]

You're gonna let a bunch of establishment goons try to stop us?

[Narrative Voice]

He's got the long hair and the beard and the sunglasses.

[Cultural Historian]

His name is Grizzly.

[Narrative Voice]

Of course it is.

[Historical Narrator]

Don't listen to him, Martin. We can take him.

[Narrative Voice]

It really conveys a feeling of violence about to erupt.

[Cultural Historian]

And so Cap gets in the middle of it.

[Steve Rogers / Captain America]

If they have to call the police, then anything may happen. But maybe Captain America can break him up before it's too late. But I've gotta be careful. I'll be facing students, not supervillains.

[Cultural Historian]

And it's subtle. You can see that Captain America has some empathy for the students who want more respect. But he's still fighting for the establishment. He takes down the radical students, saves a professor, and then the dean kind of lectures the student leader.

[Historical Narrator]

At the end, you're still free to dissent, but let's try for a little education between riots, okay?

[Comic Book Expert]

The implicit line of that is student radicalism is harming us. It could be a cover for bad things. Right?

[Cultural Historian]

But this younger generation wasn't being silenced. And in May of 1970, the opposition to the war in Vietnam would reach a turning point when the National Guard killed four students at Kent State who were protesting. Whether or not it was on Stan's mind when he was writing Captain America, it was definitely on the minds of people in the United States.

[Comic Book Expert]

The next time Stan Lee writes a student protest, it's quite different.

[Narrative Voice]

He sees that there's a lot of armored policemen, helmets and batons going up against civilians.

[Steve Rogers / Captain America]

Here's where I ought to step in and make like a swinging hero.

[Narrative Voice]

And Cap thinks to himself, but how.

[Steve Rogers / Captain America]

Do I know whose side to take?

[Narrative Voice]

What the heck?

[Steve Rogers / Captain America]

The cops don't need any help, but these kids do.

[Comic Book Expert]

So Captain America intervenes on the side of the students against the police.

[Cultural Historian]

Cap still doesn't quite understand why some students feel like they have to resort to violence and can't be more like him, measured and reasonable. And this is where having strong morals gets tricky, because applying those morals, doing the right thing in real life, means that you're often taking sides, which Cap does. Later, he's asked to read a speech on television promoting law and order, and he breaks from the script.

[Steve Rogers / Captain America]

I've been asked to speak to you today to warn America about those who try to change our institutions. But in a pig's eye, I'll warn you. This nation will was founded by dissidents, by people who wanted something better. There is nothing sacred about the status quo, and there never will be. I don't believe in using force or violence because they can be the weapons of those who would enslave us. But nor do I believe in an establishment that remains so aloof, so distant, that the people are driven to desperate measures.

[Cultural Historian]

The audience both loved and hated this story, according to Stan Lee. And a few months later, Stan wrote an editorial in a Captain America comic responding to critics who didn't think Marvel should do stories about politics or civil rights or the environment, what Stan called real issues. And he wrote that he was hearing it from all sides, saying, we're just trying to make some sense out of the nutty news items and ridiculous reports that assail our senses every minute. If we can make you think, if we can anger you, arouse you, stimulate and provoke you, then we've served our purpose.

[Sponsor Announcement]

This message comes from NPR sponsor Oracle. In business, they say you can have better, cheaper or faster, but you only get to pick two. What if you could have all three at the same time? Oracle Cloud Infrastructure is the blazing fast platform for your infrastructure, database, application development and AI needs. With oci, you can run any workload in a high availability, consistently high performance environment and spend less than you would with other clouds. To try OCI for free with zero commitment, go to oracle.com NPR this message comes from Bombas.

Socks, underwear and T shirts are the top three requested clothing items by people experiencing homelessness. Bombas makes all three and donates one item for every item purchased. Go to bombas.com NPR and use code NPR for 20% off. This message comes from Mint Mobile. Mint Mobile took what's wrong with wireless and made it right. They offer premium wireless plans for less, and all plans include high speed data, unlimited talk and text, and nationwide coverage. See for [e-mail] switch it's a dialogue with the Times.

[Comic Book Expert]

They're leading A discussion that is then helping people to work out how they fit in the country and how they conceive the country.

[Historical Narrator]

Everybody has a different interpretation of what Captain America is and who he should be. In the 50s, the villains were the commies. And then you get to the 60s, and what does Captain America stand for? And that's really been an issue with Captain America ever since he was thawed, you know, in 1964.

[Cultural Historian]

Coming up, as the US sinks deeper into Vietnam, a conscientious objector becomes the voice of an American war hero.

[Historical Narrator]

You're listening to Throughline from npr. I'm Jack from New Jersey. And Captain America is my favorite character of all time, as he acts as a constant reminder of what the American dream should be.

[Cultural Historian]

Part three, the Secret Empire Checking, checking. Testing, testing. Hello.

[Comic Book Writer]

Hello. You've come to the right place.

[Cultural Historian]

Good to meet you. I'm Devin.

[Comic Book Writer]

Yeah, hi, Devin.

[Cultural Historian]

This is comic book writer Steve Englehart. I met up with him at his home in Oakland, California. Should I take my shoes off?

[Comic Book Writer]

No, I don't care.

[Historical Narrator]

Okay.

[Cultural Historian]

Steve has worked on everything from X Men to the Avengers to Batman and Captain America, which he took over writing in the 1970s. We'll get to how that happened in just a bit.

[Comic Book Writer]

I always wanted a secret room like Batman had. You know, where you go through the grandfather clock and go into the cave or whatever.

[Cultural Historian]

At this point, Steve walks me into his den.

[Comic Book Writer]

And so we built this.

[Cultural Historian]

It's a bookcase that's a secret door.

[Comic Book Writer]

It unfortunately drags on the floor so I have to like, mess with it.

[Cultural Historian]

We walked through the bookcase and were immediately met with sunlight streaming through the windows. Not exactly Batcave vibes, but pretty cool. And the room is lined with shelves full of cases of comic books.

[Comic Book Writer]

This is the 50s, Captain America. And then in the next box, I guess.

[Cultural Historian]

And are these organized by issue or.

[Comic Book Writer]

Are they just, well, by title? All my Captain Americas. And then we. Then we go to Doc Savage.

[Cultural Historian]

10 year old Steve would have been in awe of this secret comic book. Laird comics were one of his first passions in life. Although by the time he got to college, he wasn't exactly planning a future in comic writing.

[Comic Book Writer]

I graduated from college with my degree and I got accepted at law school at University of Michigan, actually.

[Cultural Historian]

But it was 1969, the Vietnam War was raging and he was expecting his draft orders to come down any day.

[Historical Narrator]

I do not find it easy to send the flower of our youth, our finest young men, into battle. We did not choose to be the guardians at the gate, but there is no one else.

[Comic Book Writer]

I had no interest in fighting a war. But, you know, you're a young American male at the time period. You can either flee to Canada or you can just say, this is the way it is. So I enlisted and chose journalism. I was in basic training at Fort Knox, and there was another guy from Indianapolis where I was living by that time. I didn't know him, but because we were both from Indianapolis, we kind of bonded during the basic training. He went to Vietnam and was there about three days and stepped on a landmine and blew his legs off and took a week to die. From what I heard.

[Cultural Historian]

Steve was hearing a lot of stories like that on the base. People coming back from Vietnam disillusioned and broken, including his sergeant in the journalism office.

[Comic Book Writer]

The sergeant had made himself an ashtray, and he put the American flag decal on the bottom of the ashtray so he could grind his cigarettes out on it.

[Cultural Historian]

In other words, like, this is what the American flag deserves.

[Comic Book Writer]

Yeah. Yeah. And so eventually I decided that I was going to get out of all of this.

[Cultural Historian]

Steve asked to leave the army on the grounds that he was a conscientious objector.

[Comic Book Writer]

If I had lost the case, I would have been in Saigon the next day. And then the orders came down that I was allowed to get out, and I left. I hopped on a train, went up to New York, and started trying to get into comics.

[Cultural Historian]

It was 1970, and New York was the place to be if you had dreams of writing for the two big comic publishers, DC or Marvel.

[Comic Book Writer]

I ended up living in a sixth floor walk up in the Bronx with three other guys, and one of the guys, mothers. You know, it was like your whole starving artist, come to New York, get started kind of thing.

[Cultural Historian]

He took whatever work he could find.

[Comic Book Writer]

One page fillers, mysteries or romances or, you know, backgrounds for other better artists.

[Cultural Historian]

And eventually, in 1971, he lucked into a position at Mark Marvel.

[Comic Book Writer]

One of the people I knew was the writer on Nick Fury, agent of S.H.I.E.L.D. and he called me up and he said, I'm going to be gone six weeks. Can you, you know, take over my job at Marvel? At the end of six weeks, decided not to come back, which meant Steve.

[Cultural Historian]

Could keep the job at Marvel.

[Comic Book Writer]

Eventually, I got the Beast from the X Men, and they liked the way I was doing the Beast. So then, like two months later, they came to me and said, okay, Captain America, this book is not doing well. It was Marvel's least successful superhero book.

[Cultural Historian]

And so they tell Steve, hey, we'd love it if you could take one last stab at reviving this defunct superhero.

[Comic Book Writer]

We're not really necessarily expecting you to figure something out, but, you know, maybe you can.

[Cultural Historian]

So Steve goes home and rereads every issue of Captain America he had. And he begins to wonder if maybe where the writers before him went wrong was trying to equate Captain America with the American government or military with institutions. Instead, Steve thought, what if he stood.

[Comic Book Writer]

For American ideals, the stuff that transcends whatever America's doing at this particular time. So I wrote my first story with that in mind.

[Cultural Historian]

Captain America, Hero or hoax? In this new storyline, there are two Captain Americas. A fake one.

[Historical Narrator]

I am Captain America. Your friend is some pinko who has duped the American public who's trying to sell out this great nation to the reds.

[Cultural Historian]

This cap is a racist cap who beats a black people in Harlem and is still obsessed with fighting communists.

[Steve Rogers / Captain America]

We found that most people who weren't.

[Historical Narrator]

Pure blooded Americans were commies.

[Cultural Historian]

And then there's the real cap, who's become more progressive.

[Steve Rogers / Captain America]

You think I'm a traitor? Grow up, fella. Times have changed. America is in danger from within as well as without.

[Cultural Historian]

The two of them fight.

[Steve Rogers / Captain America]

Wham, bam, suck.

[Cultural Historian]

And the real cap wins. And so does Marvel. This storyline made Captain America comics best sellers again. And just as Steve gets going, they.

[Comic Book Writer]

Caught the Watergate burglars breaking into the Watergate Hotel to burgle the Democrats.

[Historical Narrator]

The incident raises a number of serious questions about the credibility of politicians and political groups.

[Cultural Historian]

By 1973, it was becoming clearer that the Nixon administration might have had a hand in the break in.

[Historical Narrator]

I welcome this kind of examination because people have got to know whether or not their president is a crook. Well, I'm not a crook.

[Cultural Historian]

Steve was hooked on this story, as was most of America. And he tuned into updates as he packed up his apartment into a U Haul, preparing to cross the country for a big move out West. Meanwhile, he was working on something new for Captain America. And when he finally hit the road, the radio was a constant companion.

[Historical Narrator]

Once again on All Things Considered, we're going to sample some opinions concerning Watergate.

[Comic Book Writer]

So I'm driving all day long listening.

[Historical Narrator]

To Watergate, otherwise referred to as the caper of the bungled bugging. Thinking about America, there's a feeling of frustration and bitterness and cynicism all over.

[Comic Book Writer]

The country, seeing the country change from the east coast into the Midwest flatlands and the rolling hills.

[Historical Narrator]

A group of second and third graders.

[Comic Book Writer]

In Maryville, Missouri, the Rockies, deserts and mountains.

[Historical Narrator]

What is Watergate?

[Cultural Historian]

Might be something like A waterbed, only it's a Watergate. All the while Steve is asking himself.

[Comic Book Writer]

If I were Captain America, what would I do?

[Cultural Historian]

And by way the. By the time he got to California, his new storyline for Captain America was complete. The Secret Empire.

[Comic Book Writer]

I wasn't writing a crime documentary. I was writing a Captain America comic book. So I recast stuff. Nixon's right hand man was Haldeman, who had been an advertising guy. And I came up with a character called Harderman, who was an advertising guy. And Nixon's reelection committee was the Committee to Re Elect the President, which was known as creep. And I came up with the Committee to Regain America's Principles, which is known as crap. Captain America one day discovered that there were ads being run by the Committee to Regain America's Prince saying that Captain America was a vigilante not to be trusted. Then Captain America got thrown in jail.

[Cultural Historian]

Suddenly the jailhouse wall bursts into bits.

[Comic Book Writer]

And eventually he broke out of jail.

[Comic Book Expert]

Ultimately, they work out that the Secret Empire is behind all this.

[Cultural Historian]

Michael Goodrum is the author of An American Self Image.

[Comic Book Expert]

The Secret Empire is a secret organization that is aiming for greater power than democracy would allow them. And the head of the Secret Empire, Captain America, has a showdown with him. Do not force my hand.

[Comic Book Writer]

Captain America chased him into the White House, into the Oval office.

[Steve Rogers / Captain America]

All right, Mr. Into the Line.

[Comic Book Expert]

I gambled on a coup to gain.

[Steve Rogers / Captain America]

Me the power I craved.

[Comic Book Expert]

And it appears that my gamble has finally failed.

[Cultural Historian]

And he proves to be no match for Captain America.

[Historical Narrator]

Crap.

[Comic Book Writer]

Defeated, he blows his brains out in front of Captain America.

[Comic Book Expert]

You never see his face.

[Comic Book Writer]

But nobody is in doubt really who that's supposed to be. I couldn't kill Richard Nixon in the comic book.

[Cultural Historian]

Why couldn't you make him Nixon? Was that too far?

[Comic Book Writer]

I thought so. I mean, that was my decision, right? It was all up to me. There was no editorial pushback at all from Marvel. I always thought he was like a New Deal liberal, that, you know, he was a Roosevelt guy. He'd grown up with Roosevelt as the.

[Cultural Historian]

President and so he would have believed in the government's power to fix society's problems.

[Comic Book Writer]

So to have that guy find out that the President was a crook, I saw the possibilities of that guy being disillusioned.

[Comic Book Expert]

Once Captain America has had this showdown, he loses his faith in America.

[Steve Rogers / Captain America]

I'm the one who's seen everything Captain America fought for become a cynical sham.

[Comic Book Expert]

So he stops being Captain America because he doesn't want to give the ideological support of him dressing up in the American flag to the Government. He thinks that they're all corrupt. I can't defend them. So he becomes Nomad, the man without a country, and carries on trying to fight crime.

[Cultural Historian]

Did you feel like it was a big risk to change his identity to basically, you know, be anti establishment? I mean, Captain America for so long was pro establishment, and now all of a sudden you flip the script?

[Comic Book Writer]

Well, the world was anti establishment in those days. The energy was with young people. He doesn't want to stand for the America that he just saw. It turned out, you know, that he could stand for ideals even if the president was a crook.

[Cultural Historian]

Less than a year later, Nomad went back to being Captain America, and Steve Englehart eventually passed the baton to new writers. But Steve had forever changed the idea of what kind of patriot Captain America could be, that he could love his country and also not love what his government was doing. But that wouldn't mean Captain America would always stay the same. And the iterations that followed have often been a response to the moment they're born in. Cap's been more militant. He fought terrorism after 9, 11. Then he was critical of Guantanamo Bay. There have been black Captain Americas, a native Captain America. In the latest Captain America movie, Cap teams up with a superhero originally named Sabra, an agent for Israel's national intelligence agency, Mossad. After getting backlash, the studio decided to call her Ruth and had her work instead for the United States. These debates about what Captain America should stand for, who he should fight for, and what is right or what or wrong, they're all part of a conversation we continue to have about who we are and who we want to be. We're doing episodes on amendments, and one of our guests talked about amendments to the US Constitution as these majestic generalities like intentionally vague morals and ethics that speak to something greater. And I kind of see Captain America as one of these majestic generalities.

[Comic Book Expert]

It's a good phrase. It kind of sums up Captain America. You can make of him what you will, but it is supposed to be majestic. It's beautifully crafted in terms of setting up the critique of the systems and America and then working it back round so that you follow Captain America through the journey of resoliciting your ideological belief in the idea of America. You want to believe the best of people and that there's always someone out there who's going to do the right thing.

[Historical Narrator]

That's it for this week's show. I'm Ramtin arablouei.

[Podcast Host]

I'm Rund Abdelfatah, and you've been listening to Throughline from NPR this episode was produced by me and me and Lawrence.

[Cultural Historian]

Wu, Julie Kane, Anya Steinberg, Casey Minor, Christina Kim, Devin Kadayama, Irene Noguchi.

[Steve Rogers / Captain America]

This is Christopher Biel and I played Captain America.

[Podcast Host]

Thanks to Neil Vande Hei, Chad Bryan, Don Moore, Sandhya Dirks, JC Howard, Cameron Fraser, Dustin Brumley, Ryan Dorgun and Ali Katayama for their voiceover work. Also thanks to Amber Tse, Tony Cavan, Johannes Durgi, Edith Chapin and Colin Campbell.

[Historical Narrator]

Fact checking for this episode was done by Kevin Voelkel. The episode was mixed and mastered by Robert Rodriguez.

[Podcast Host]

Music for this episode was composed by Ramptin and his band Drop Electric, which.

[Cultural Historian]

Includes Anya Mizani, Naveed, Marvi, Sho Fujiwara.

[Historical Narrator]

And finally, finally, if you have an.

[Cultural Historian]

Idea or like something you heard on.

[Historical Narrator]

The show, please write [e-mail] and make sure you follow us on Apple, Spotify or the NPR app. That way you'll never miss an episode.

[Podcast Host]

Thanks for listening.

[Sponsor Announcement]

This message comes from NPR sponsor Dana Farber Cancer Institute. Dana Farber Scientists laid the foundation for CDK4.6 inhibitors, new drugs that are increasing the survival rate for many advanced breast cancers. Learn [e-mail] everywhere. This message comes from NPR sponsor Viori featuring the performance jogger. Visit viori.com NPR for 20% off your first purchase on any US orders over $75 and free returns. Exclusions apply. Visit the website for full terms and conditions. This message comes from Mint Mobile. If you're tired of spending hundreds on big wireless bills, bogus fees and free perks, Mint Mobile might be right for you with plans starting from 15 bucks a month. Shop plans [e-mail] Switch upfront payment of $45 for 3 month 5 gigabyte plan required. New customer offer for first 3 months only, then full price plan options available, taxes and fees extra. See Mint Mobile for details.