Edward Said and the Question of Palestine

Summary

Throughline: Edward Said and the Question of Palestine

Throughline, hosted by NPR's Rund Abdelfatah and Ramtin Arablouei, takes listeners on a comprehensive journey through the life and legacy of Edward Said, a pivotal figure in bringing the Palestinian narrative to the global stage. Released on July 17, 2025, this episode delves deep into Said's intellectual contributions, activism, and the enduring impact of his work on contemporary discussions about Palestine and the Middle East.

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Introduction: The Shadow of Edward Said [00:16 - 02:49]

The episode opens with a vivid portrayal of Edward Said narrating the 1982 PBS documentary Shadow of the West. Through a collage of evocative images, Said introduces the Western portrayal of the Orient as "a place of fantasy, imagination, desire" ([01:05]). Born in Jerusalem when it was part of Palestine, Said witnessed the tumultuous events of 1948 when Palestine became Israel, leading to his family's displacement and the inaccessibility of his birthplace ([01:29]).

Early Life and Identity [02:10 - 13:37]

Said's upbringing was marked by a unique blend of Eastern heritage and Western influence. His wife, Maryam Said, reminisces about his "old European charm" and his deep connection to classical music, stating, "Beethoven, Mozart, Bach" ([02:22]). Despite living a life of privilege in Cairo, surrounded by opera and lush gardens, Said grappled with profound contradictions. He belonged to a Christian minority in a predominantly Muslim country, was baptized in the Church of England, and spoke English at home rather than Arabic ([12:02]). These multifaceted identities shaped his worldview and fueled his later intellectual pursuits.

Orientalism: Challenging Western Narratives [22:48 - 25:34]

In 1978, amidst a volatile geopolitical landscape, Edward Said published Orientalism, a groundbreaking work that critiqued Western depictions of the East. Said argued that Western scholars and writers perpetuated stereotypes that portrayed the Orient as exotic, backward, and uncivilized. He stated, "There was a kind of repertory of images that kept coming up… the sensual woman... the east is a kind of mysterious place, full of secrets and monsters" ([24:33]). This critique highlighted how cultural representations served to justify Western dominance and colonial aspirations.

Activism and Political Engagement [07:39 - 18:47]

Said's academic influence extended beyond the classroom. As Columbia University's professor from 1963 until his death in 2003, he became a vocal advocate for Palestinian rights. He played a crucial role in translating Yasser Arafat's 1974 UN speech, ensuring that the Palestinian message resonated globally. Said emphasized the importance of shaping Western perceptions, asserting, "a good part of our war against Israeli occupation would have to be in the west, in the Western mind" ([19:00]).

Timothy Brennan, author of Places: A Life of Edward Said, notes that post-1967, Said's activism intensified as he sought to humanize the Palestinian struggle amidst growing Western support for Israel ([11:21]). Despite facing significant opposition, including FBI investigations and personal threats, Said remained steadfast in his mission to reshape narratives and advocate for coexistence.

The West Eastern Divan Orchestra: Music as a Bridge [47:02 - 50:22]

In the 1990s, Said co-founded the West Eastern Divan Orchestra with Israeli conductor Daniel Barenboim. This groundbreaking ensemble brought together Palestinian, Arab, and Israeli musicians to foster understanding through music. Said remarked, "At the moment that they were playing… what they're doing towards you" ([49:03]), emphasizing the power of collaborative art to transcend political and cultural divides.

Despite initial pushback and accusations of "normalization" ([50:09]), the orchestra gained international acclaim and was honored as a UN Global Advocate for Cultural Understanding in 2016. This initiative exemplified Said's belief in the potential for creative endeavors to promote peace and reconciliation.

Later Years and Continued Struggle [30:52 - 44:47]

Throughout the 1980s and beyond, Said remained deeply involved in the Palestinian cause, acting as a liaison between American officials and the PLO. He was a staunch critic of political agreements like the Oslo Accords, believing they failed to address the underlying issues of occupation and settlement expansion. Said warned, "Unless we find ways to do this… there's going to be wholesale violence" ([44:32]).

His unwavering commitment to a two-state solution, despite escalating violence and political setbacks, underscored his dedication to coexistence. Timothy Brennan reflects, "Because it's the only way to go. The only option left" ([43:58]), highlighting the limited avenues available for peace amidst entrenched conflicts.

Legacy and Reflections [53:08 - 54:05]

Edward Said's legacy endures through his extensive body of work and the initiatives he spearheaded. His wife, Maryam Said, reflects on his enduring influence: "The words of Edward Said provide some measure of continuity, of struggle, some measure of maybe even desire to look for life in a time of extreme death" ([53:08]). His intellectual and activist efforts continue to inspire new generations seeking understanding and reconciliation in the Middle East.

In his final reflections, Said pondered the possibility of resolving entrenched prejudices through "a more enduring history of ordinary lives of reconciliation and recognition" ([53:41]). His vision of coexistence remains a guiding principle for those advocating for peace and mutual understanding.

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Notable Quotes:

• Edward Said ([01:05]): "The Orient, the mysterious East. A place of fantasy, imagination, desire."
• Edward Said ([02:40]): "Music has curative powers. You're taken outside of yourself. I mean, there's a state of almost ecstasy."
• Edward Said ([24:33]): "There was a kind of repertory of images that kept coming up… the sensual woman... the east is a kind of mysterious place, full of secrets and monsters."
• Edward Said ([19:00]): "A good part of our war against Israeli occupation would have to be in the west, in the Western mind."
• Edward Said ([49:03]): "At the moment that they were playing… what they're doing towards you."
• Edward Said ([44:32]): "Unless we find ways to do this… there's going to be wholesale violence."
• Edward Said ([53:41]): "A more enduring history of ordinary lives of reconciliation and recognition."

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Conclusion:

Throughline's episode on Edward Said meticulously traces his journey from a Palestinian academic to a global advocate for Palestinian rights. By intertwining his intellectual endeavors with his activism, the episode paints a comprehensive picture of a man dedicated to reshaping narratives and fostering understanding in a deeply divided world. Edward Said's enduring legacy is a testament to the power of words and actions in the pursuit of justice and peace.

Transcript

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[Narrator]

Imagine it's the year 1982. You've just turned on the TV, you're flipping through channels and then this generic Arabian melody catches your ear, so you linger. A grainy black and white video shows a man flying across the screen on a floating carpet. Suddenly it cuts to a belly dancer, bedazzled in red and yellow sequins, spinning around as a sheer orange scarf envelops her. Cut. Again, a forlorn face hunched over in a dark black shroud, only one eye peering out. Cut. A man in a white turban with furrowed brows stares intensely, angrily back at you. And then, as this visual collage continues, you hear a voice.

[Edward Said]

The Orient, the mysterious East. A place of fantasy, imagination, desire.

[Narrator]

The voice belongs to a man named Edward Said and he's narrating this documentary on PBS called the Shadow of the West. Said was himself from the so called Orient, the Middle East.

[Edward Said]

I was born in Jerusalem when it was part of a country called Palestine. By 1948, when Palestine became Israel, all my family had left. My birthplace is now inaccessible to me. For many hundreds of thousands of my fellow Palestinians, their native towns, villages, farms are inaccessible to them.

[Narrator]

For a lot of people tuning in, this might have been the first time they're hearing someone called a Palestinian talk about a place called Palestine in eng on their TV. It wasn't a common thing to see in the 80s, and Edward said might not have been what they expected.

[Meryam Said]

He had like a pocket watch that he would use to check the time. Wrote with a fountain pen.

[Narrator]

Very well dressed, think tweed jacket, no turban or keffiyeh in sight.

[Meryam Said]

He exuded a kind of old European charm.

[Narrator]

He had two pianos and loved playing. From the time he was a kid, classical music was the soundtrack of his life. Beethoven, Mozart, Bach.

[Edward Said]

Music has curative powers. You're taken outside of yourself. I mean, there's a state of almost ecstasy.

[Narrator]

And it was this person who in the second half of the 20th century took it on as his mission to explain Palestine to the West. For nearly 30 years you could find him narrating documentaries on TV, lecturing on college campuses, writing for the New York Times, engaging politicians. And in the us he became the.

[Timothy Brennan]

Most distinguished and certainly the best known representative of the Palestine struggle for national independence, for liberation.

[Edward Said]

Today I would encourage the other side to not so lightly throw around the idea of innocent Palestinian civilians.

[Narrator]

The conversation around Palestinians remains fraught.

[Edward Said]

I don't think we would so lightly throw around the term innocent Nazi civilians.

[Narrator]

The situation on the ground is worse than ever.

[Edward Said]

Hunger, hunger, hunger. There is hunger in Gaza. There is humiliation. You bring me aid to kill me.

[Narrator]

And Columbia University, where Edward said taught from 1963 until his death in 2003, has been the epicenter of the student protest movement.

[Edward Said]

Tense and dramatic standoff here at Columbia.

[Narrator]

University and its crackdown.

[Edward Said]

The school gave permission to the NYPD to remove pro Palestine demonstrators. Columbia University's caving to the Trump administration. Grad student Mahmoud Khalil was in a federal immigration court.

[Narrator]

Among the scattered belongings that were left behind on the lawn were a few rumbled Palestinian flags, some sleeping bags, and a copy of Culture and Imperialism by Edward Said. Though he passed more than 20 years ago, said is still present in that conversation. Student protesters invoked his name with signs like Columbia, why require me to read.

[Edward Said]

Professor Edwards Edward Said if you don't want me to use it?

[Narrator]

His books are still taught in university classrooms across the world.

[Edward Said]

When it comes to understanding the Middle east as a Westerner, there is perhaps no concept more important than Edward Said's Orientalism. I mean, it was literally the first thing I was taught in a university lecture.

[Narrator]

His interviews have been circulating on social media, sparking conversations there. Think about Edward Said today because we're.

[Edward Said]

Living in an era where politicians are being asked to step down for speaking up against yenists. The period we're living in is not the clash of civilization but the clash of definitions.

[Meryam Said]

He was very adamant about understanding the human in all of the complexity.

[Narrator]

On this episode of Throughline from npr, the life of Edward Said, the man who brought the question of Palestine into the mainstream. The pushback he got for doing that and the dangers he foresaw that laid a path towards the current moment. Hello, this is Lissa Malloy from Charlestown, New Hampshire. You're listening to Throughline from npr.

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[Narrator]

Part 1 the professor.

[Daniel Barenboim]

The first time I met him was in 1967.

[Narrator]

This is Maryam Saeed.

[Daniel Barenboim]

I am the widow of the late Edward Said. I knew one of his sisters from the American University of Beirut. She was a classmate.

[Narrator]

She'd had a horseback riding accident, so.

[Daniel Barenboim]

I went to visit her in the hospital and he was there drinking Coke and eating popcorn or chips, I don't recall. And I walked in and he said, oh good, here's your friend, now I can leave. And he walked out. Two years later I happened to meet him in Beirut.

[Narrator]

What was different about that time that made you connect with him?

[Daniel Barenboim]

I don't know, but I noticed that he was looking at me.

[Narrator]

They started to talk. She knew Edward Said was a tweed jacketed professor of literature at Columbia University, but she learned that he'd been born in Jerusalem, while Meryam had been born and raised not so far away in Beirut, Lebanon. Both of their childhoods were shaped by the founding of Israel in 1948. Both of them had been star students in school and the more they talked, the more connected they felt.

[Daniel Barenboim]

We talked mostly about politics.

[Edward Said]

June 5, 1967 the Israelis decided to.

[Daniel Barenboim]

Strike for first the 1967 war, also.

[Narrator]

Known as the Six Day War. After Egypt mobilized its military, Israel launched a surprise attack against all of Egypt's air force bases the frontier of the.

[Edward Said]

Gaza Strip just a mere kilometer away.

[Narrator]

Egypt, Jordan and Syria responded with force.

[Edward Said]

They've been here all day and they began this war this morning at around 06:00'. Clock.

[Narrator]

But with the shock of the surprise attack and help from American weapons, Israel had the upper hand and six days.

[Daniel Barenboim]

Later the whole war was lost.

[Narrator]

The Arab states accepted a ceasefire. Israel seized control of the West Bank, East Jerusalem, the Gaza Strip, the Sinai Peninsula and the Golan Heights.

[Timothy Brennan]

Although by international recognition, there are Palestinian territories that are supposedly sovereign. Israeli troops arrogate to themselves the right to militarily occupy it with no intention of leaving.

[Edward Said]

The world I knew was shattered. There was a need for an Arab voice. I mean, all we heard was the triumphalism of Israel, the triumph of the West. The chorus was deafening. Israeli Prime Minister Levi Eshkal must be the proudest man in the world, especially when he is 60. Fantastic hours in which the Israeli forces have routed the armed might of their Arab neighbors.

[Timothy Brennan]

I think that the general consensus is that, you know, he was an apolitical man who was politicized by the setback of 1967.

[Narrator]

This is Timothy Brennan.

[Timothy Brennan]

The book that I wrote is called Places of A Life of Edward Said.

[Narrator]

The first comprehensive biography of Edward Said.

[Timothy Brennan]

Most of his students back before 1967 say that we all knew he was Palestinian. We all knew that he had his commitments to the Palestinian independence movement, but he just hadn't really kind of expressed it. Suddenly he's moved to activism, but he doesn't know how.

[Edward Said]

Your history is a result of a huge jumble of traces left inside you. Then I think what you have to do is to convert these traces into a narrative.

[Narrator]

Said spent his early years in the late 1930s and 40s, going back and forth between what was then called Palestine and Cairo. And then suddenly he was cut off from his family home in Jerusalem. He watched as hundreds of thousands of Palestinians, including some of his family members, were forced to flee their homes after the State of Israel was created in 1948.

[Timothy Brennan]

His aunt played a very active role in receiving and caring for the huge number of Palestinians who were forced out.

[Narrator]

But on the other hand, he was living a life of privilege in Cairo.

[Timothy Brennan]

Opera, lush parks and tropical gardens and horse riding and polo and tennis courts and so on. He lived with this deep contradiction at the core of his experience.

[Narrator]

There were actually several contradictions at play in his life. The Saids were a Christian family, part of a small religious minority in a majority Muslim country. Said was baptized in the Church of England, but lived in Egypt, a country that the British had colonized. Said spoke English at home, not Arabic.

[Timothy Brennan]

He literally dreamt in more than one language.

[Narrator]

And those contradictions all came with him when he moved to the US for school as a teenager.

[Timothy Brennan]

This is the world that he grew up in.

[Edward Said]

We can break out of the confinement, to use the phrase from Foucault, and enter a community where we are as the others are. The important thing is to overcome separation. Philosophically, I think separation is an instrument of power designed to keep the inferior inferior. And so I want to overcome that through music, through literature, through thought. The legacy of the Six Day War is a bitter occupation. Two people with the same claim on the same homeland.

[Narrator]

In the wake of the 1967 war, Zeid traveled to the Middle east trying to understand what it meant, how it.

[Daniel Barenboim]

Is seen from a Jordanian perspective, how it is seen from a Lebanese perspective. He had read a lot of stuff the Israelis had put up, and when.

[Narrator]

He came back to his apartment in New York, he found the American perspective was shifting too.

[Meryam Said]

The post 67 cultural moment in the United States is also the moment when the United States becomes much more pro Israel. And in that regard it became much more dismissive of anything Palestinian.

[Narrator]

This is Mustafa Bayoumi, a professor at Brooklyn College who's also a former student of Said and co editor of the Edward Saeed Reader.

[Edward Said]

Every so often, the Middle east rushes out into attention with a clutch of headlines whenever some Arab potentate puts the squeeze on America for higher oil prices.

[Narrator]

The US was becoming more dependent on Middle Eastern oil at the same time that it was ramping up its military and financial support to Israel.

[Meryam Said]

The stereotype of the Arabs loomed larger and larger by the hour.

[Edward Said]

In the United States, word spreads quickly. An Arab has attacked a Jew with a knife. Armed Jewish vigilantes rush up offering unwanted.

[Meryam Said]

Help and there's no space in between for who the people really were and especially what the situation was for Palestinians.

[Narrator]

Palestinians in the occupied territories were living under Israeli military rule. Some Israelis began to build settlements there which the UN would eventually deem illegal under the fourth Geneva Convention. And throughout the Middle East, Palestinian refugees felt the Arab nations had failed them, treating them as second class citizens.

[Meryam Said]

It was an existential question really, to claim one's Palestinian ness. In the post 67 moment, a Palestinian.

[Narrator]

National movement began to gain momentum.

[Edward Said]

Palestinian Arab people possess the legal right to their homeland and have the right to determine their destiny after achieving the liberation of their country. This was the scene at the Zaka airstrip in Jordan recently when the massive pall of smoke from three blazing airliners told a world which needed no reminding that the Palestinian guerrillas meant business.

[Narrator]

And then, beginning in 1968, the idea.

[Daniel Barenboim]

Of kidnapping planes happened.

[Edward Said]

The planes had all been hijacked by the guerrillas.

[Narrator]

A week earlier, when he heard about the hijackings, Zaid told Meadyam, it is a mistake.

[Daniel Barenboim]

In the long run, it's a mistake.

[Narrator]

The hijacking of the planes, sort of armed resistance wing of the movement arguably gave a lot of fodder to people in the US government who could cast the entire movement in that light as being a terrorist movement. Right. So he saw that even in that moment.

[Daniel Barenboim]

Yeah, he always saw things others did not see.

[Timothy Brennan]

He tries to make the argument that the way forward is political, not military.

[Narrator]

The chairman of the Palestine Liberation Organization, a man named Yasser Arafat, was emerging as the movement's leader. But he mostly spoke Arabic, and in public appearances he wore kafiyya and army fatigues. He wasn't exactly relatable to the average American. And Said, who was living in the US and wasn't part of the plo, thought he could help the movement by.

[Timothy Brennan]

Trying to humanize Arafat for the American public.

[Narrator]

In 1974, Arafat was scheduled to give a talk at the UN on behalf of the Palestinian Liberation movement. This was a huge deal. It was the first time Arafat would be before the world advocating for Palestinians.

[Daniel Barenboim]

It was mostly written, apparently by Mahmoud Darwish in Arabic.

[Narrator]

Mahmoud Darwish, known as Palestine's national poet. But they needed an English version of the speech to give to the people in the room and and to broadcast on TV and radio. There was already a rough translation, but they needed someone to really bring it to life.

[Daniel Barenboim]

And they had 48 hours before he was supposed to deliver it.

[Narrator]

Said's travels around the Middle east had connected him with people on the front lines of the movement, and his reputation as a man who had a way with words had spread. So they called him and said, you.

[Daniel Barenboim]

Have to translate it for us.

[Narrator]

Said holed up in a room with an editor and got to work.

[Daniel Barenboim]

I had the privilege of typing because nobody knew how to type except me. And finally it was finished around 3 in the morning.

[Narrator]

They sent a car to deliver the translation just in time for Arafat to take the podium in front of the UN. Said's translation let the world understand Arafat's message.

[Edward Said]

Mr. President, those who call us terrorists wish to prevent world public opinion from discovering the truth about us and from seeing the justice on our faces.

[Narrator]

At the end of the speech, Arafat Today I have come bearing an olive branch and a freedom fighter's gun. Do not let the olive branch fall from my hand. I repeat, do not let the olive branch fall from my hand.

[Daniel Barenboim]

The Arith branch people say that it was Edward's idea.

[Edward Said]

And I was one of, I think, one of the first to realize that a good part of our war against Israeli occupation would have to be in the west, in the Western mind. Coming up My my troubles began then in the early 70s. Hi, this is Maria Montalvo from Chicago, Illinois. You are listening to Throughline at NPR.

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[Narrator]

Part 2 the spokesman.

[Daniel Barenboim]

He never, ever thought that it will shake the world.

[Narrator]

In 1978, Edward Said published a new book called Orientalism, and at the time a lot was happening in the Middle East. The west bank in Gaza remained under Israeli occupation. Civil war was raging in Lebanon, where the PLO was based. Egypt would soon sign a treaty with Israel, normalizing relations between the two countries. Iran was on the brink of an Islamic revolution, and in the US the shadow of Vietnam loomed large.

[Meryam Said]

Everybody who has been dominated by a colonial system in some way, shape or form sees themselves in that book.

[Narrator]

This is Said's former graduate student, Mustafa Beyoumi.

[Meryam Said]

In Europe, the Orient is the so called East Muslim Middle East.

[Timothy Brennan]

What's important about that Orient, among other things, of course, is it's right there. It's right next to Europe.

[Narrator]

And this is Said's biographer, Timothy Brennan.

[Timothy Brennan]

Its proximity is precisely why there's an attempt, Edward is complaining, to try to create a wall, a cultural wall, Zaid writes.

[Narrator]

For Europe, Islam was a lasting trauma. Until the end of the 17th century, the Ottoman peril lurked alongside Europe to represent for the whole of Christian civilization a constant danger.

[Timothy Brennan]

The Orientalists that he's referring to in the title of the book are these French and English, 19th century, Scottish, who studied the Orient.

[Edward Said]

This writing was an organized form of writing, like an organized science, you know, what I've called Orientalism. And it seemed to me that there was a kind of repertory of images that kept coming up. You know, the sensual woman who's there to be sort of used by the man. The east is a kind of mysterious place, full of secrets and monsters.

[Timothy Brennan]

What Edward is trying to say, I think, is that there's a lot of mischief that happens in the act of representation, that you can create a reality that has no correspondence to another reality.

[Meryam Said]

What interested Said is the way those ideas just keep on replicating themselves.

[Narrator]

And then you end up with Aladdin.

[Meryam Said]

Then you end up essentially. Exactly.

[Edward Said]

Oh, I come from a land, from a faraway place where the king caravan camels roam where it's flat and immense and the heat is intense. It's barbaric, but hey, it's home.

[Narrator]

Zaid continues, always there lurks the assumption that although the Western consumer belongs to a numerical minority, he is entitled either to own or to expend, or both, the majority of the world resources. Why? Because he, unlike the Oriental, is a true human being.

[Timothy Brennan]

Palestine was imagined as an empty desert waiting to burst into bloom.

[Narrator]

Then the book turns to Said's birthplace.

[Timothy Brennan]

Its inhabitants inconsequential nomads, possessing no stable claim to the land and therefore no cultural permanence.

[Meryam Said]

Who are the Palestinians? Where are the Palestinians? They don't exist.

[Timothy Brennan]

You know, so many of the people who call themselves Israelis come from Russia and the United States and from Europe.

[Edward Said]

This war between peoples is, I believe, inextricably entangled with the fantasies, dreams and ambitions of the west to rule and possess the East. To some extent, the State of Israel itself has been created and sustained by those fantasies, dreams and ambitions.

[Narrator]

The book made waves and had plenty of critics. Some prominent British historians, like Bernard Lewis, thought his views were reductive, flattening the west while flattering the East.

[Edward Said]

The answer to a stereotype is not, of course, a negative stereotype.

[Narrator]

Some academics from the east thought his focus on culture and identity overlooked the role of capitalism in all of this. Some Said he minimized the complex identities and historical experiences of people within the Islamic Middle east, especially minorities like Christians, Kurds and Jews. But Said also had defenders, including within the American Jewish community.

[Timothy Brennan]

He was a great lover of the book the Non Jewish Jew by Isaac Deutscher. Who made the case that one of the reasons why there's this universalist defense of justice and a kind of an attack on tribalist modes of thinking among so many great Jews in history, Spinoza or Trotsky or Rosa Luxembourg or Noam Chomsky in our own day, has to do with their marginal status and the fact that they had known oppression.

[Narrator]

Not long after Orientalism came out, Said was preparing his next manuscript. This time a book all about Palestine. He Said he hoped to make clear the Palestinian interpretation of Palestinian experience. But when Said came back to the publisher with a draft building on his ideas in Orientalism about Europe and its.

[Daniel Barenboim]

Relationship to the Jews and to Zionism.

[Narrator]

With antisemitism, the anti Semitism of Europeans.

[Daniel Barenboim]

Yeah.

[Narrator]

And describing the collision between Zionism and the Palestinians for the Palestinian perspective, the publisher was like, this is not what.

[Daniel Barenboim]

We wanted you to write.

[Narrator]

It's a dead end. And Said would be rejected again before he finally found a publisher willing to print it. In 1979, the question of Palestine hit bookshelves. And not only did it feature the Palestinian story, it proposed a vision for a future Palestinian.

[Edward Said]

We realize that we are being asked to pay the price for what happened to the Jews in Europe under the Holocaust. It was an entirely Christian and European catastrophe. And we are being dispossessed. We've become the victims of the victims. But not all of us say, well, they should be thrown out. So we have another vision, which is a vision of coexistence in which Jew and Arab can live together, which I think it requires a kind of creativity and invention that is possible.

[Narrator]

Throughout the 1980s, Edward Said did everything in his power to convert his vision of a two state solution into reality. Even as violence intensified in the region.

[Edward Said]

Israel launches a major assault into southern Lebanon.

[Narrator]

I think we are seeing in Lebanon now the development of some fringe groups that have some Iranian influence. Meanwhile, civil unrest is continuing in the Israeli occupied Gaza Strip. Three more Palestinians were shot by Israeli troops. Zaid acted as a liaison between American officials and the PLO, a role he'd reluctantly played ever since the late 1970s when Egypt's President named him the Palestinian representative to peace talks between Egypt and Israel.

[Edward Said]

I opened the door one day and I found 300 journalists outside my door and my whole life was transformed.

[Narrator]

But for the Palestinian struggle, he didn't believe high level talks between officials was going to be enough.

[Timothy Brennan]

He writes constantly to friends back here in the United States complaining about the disorganization of the plo, which leadership and how to advance the struggle.

[Narrator]

He believed the narrative about Palestinians needed to change in the minds of the American public and politicians, and it would be an uphill climb.

[Edward Said]

I think it's about time we stop those of us who support, as most of us do, Israel in this body, for apologizing for our support for Israel. There's no apology to be made. None.

[Narrator]

That's then Senator Joe Biden expressing a view it was normal to hear on the floor of Congress and see in the pages of the New York Times.

[Meryam Said]

I think that the one group that probably captured his ire more than any other group in the United States was liberals. It was the liberal establishment that vaunted the state of Israel.

[Edward Said]

It is the best $3 billion investment we make.

[Narrator]

So how would he change the narrative With a pen and his voice.

[Daniel Barenboim]

I remember the first talk I went with him. There was a lawyer from Haifa and he was going to. Going to debate him. Edward fell apart when we left.

[Narrator]

He threw up, but he kept going. He wrote for newspapers and magazines, went on talk shows, hosted documentaries, and agreed to debates. In the mid-80s, I was to supposedly.

[Edward Said]

Debate the Israeli ambassador, the ambassador to.

[Narrator]

The United nations named Benjamin Netanyahu.

[Edward Said]

And then I found the most extraordinary thing, that not only would he not sit in the same room with me, he wanted to be in a different building so as not to be sort of contaminated.

[Narrator]

There is no recording of the debate, but according to Edward Said, this is how it went down. They eventually ended up on a stage together, sitting in silence. And when the presenter said to the audience, Professor Said, and Ambassador Netanyahu refused to speak to each other, Said interjected, no, no, I'm perfectly willing to speak to him. The presenter then asked, Mr. Ambassador, why don't you speak to Professor Said? Netanyahu responded, because he wants to kill me.

[Edward Said]

The whole thing was totally absurd.

[Narrator]

Said is basically acting as the kind of, you know, unofficial spokesperson for. For the movement.

[Timothy Brennan]

Very much so, yeah. Very much so.

[Narrator]

This is a professor at Columbia University, you know, one of the most elite universities in the US and he. He faced a lot of heat for this, right? I mean, he was investigated by the FBI. How did he navigate the political sort of firestorm of being so vocal on the question of Palestine and Palestinian identity at a time when it wasn't very common to do that.

[Timothy Brennan]

His whole life was spent poring over how one needs to speak and how one needs to write in order to cross that unbridgeable chasm between the world of art and aesthetics and the world of political confrontation.

[Edward Said]

The worst aspect of it is, of course, the Occasional threat of violence. I mean, my office has been raided and vandalized. I've received death threats. And I suppose in general, I do feel, given the atmosphere surrounding Palestine and Palestinians in New York in particular, I do feel as if I'm a delinquent sort of. Before anything gets going, I am somehow guilty as charged.

[Daniel Barenboim]

It was very scary sometimes, but we lived with it. I don't know how, but we lived with it.

[Narrator]

Said and Mehdyam had two children by this point and the threat of violence hung over all of them.

[Daniel Barenboim]

You remember Kahani. He was threatened by the Kahn Hani people.

[Narrator]

Mer Kahane was a far right American rabbi who founded the militant Jewish Defense League in the US and then moved to Israel and founded a political party that pushed for the expulsion of Palestinians.

[Edward Said]

There is no Palestine. No Palestinians. There never was, there never will be.

[Daniel Barenboim]

They're Arabs and let them go.

[Narrator]

Live in Jordan during the 80s, you could find him lecturing on college campuses or talk, talking on cnn.

[Edward Said]

There is no coexistent hospital with them. They have to leave.

[Narrator]

And while he was condemned by many American Jews and Israelis, he was also amassing a loyal following. Edward Said was near the top of their hit list.

[Daniel Barenboim]

Kids broke into his office, Edward's office at the university, and burned the top of the desk. Colombia put bulletproof windows.

[Edward Said]

Wow.

[Daniel Barenboim]

All around the house. My son was always afraid that he was going to be killed as a little kid.

[Meryam Said]

I remember once walking into Said's office and he was just, you know, in the middle of a conversation with himself about these things. I remember him bellowing, saying, what they want is my silence and they will never get it.

[Edward Said]

A demonstration in front of the main hospital in Gaza. I saw an army truck stop. Soldiers drag a young man towards the burning tires, kicking him and beating him with the butt of a rock rifle.

[Narrator]

In 1987, the first intifada, or uprising, broke out in the occupied west bank and Gaza.

[Edward Said]

These children are the ugly face of 20 years of frustration over Israeli occupation here.

[Narrator]

The militant Islamic group Hamas emerged in Gaza as a political opponent to the plo.

[Edward Said]

Things have gone to such an extent here that the people want a solution, no matter through whom this will come.

[Narrator]

Meanwhile, the PLO decided to capitalize on the momentum of the first intifada to begin to lay the groundwork for a future Palestinian state. They wanted the world to see them not only as a liberation movement, but a legitimate, peaceful state in waiting.

[Edward Said]

So.

[Narrator]

So they called in Mahmoud Darwish and Edward Said to write a Palestinian declaration of independence. Darwish drafted the version in Arabic. Said translated it into English, and Yasser Arafat read it aloud in Algiers, a city with its own anti colonial legacy. It outlined a vision for a Palestinian state that was secular, democratic and committed to quote the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, a contrast to the region's Arab countries, which were ruled by dictators with shoddy human rights records. And Arafat assumed the title as the president of Palestine.

[Edward Said]

Either the Israelis will ultimately respond positively to this and essentially the entire conflict will be resolved, or the Israelis will annex and ultimately move in the direction of some form of expulsion.

[Narrator]

Coming up, Edward Said clings to a dream of coexistence as reality looks more and more like a nightmare.

[Edward Said]

This is Kalu and Jaku calling in from Bowling Green, Kentucky, and you are listening to Throughline on NPR.

[NPR Sponsor]

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[Narrator]

Part 3 the Humanist In 1993, chairman of the PLO, Yasser and Prime Minister of Israel Yitzhak Rabin stood alongside US President Bill Clinton on the White House lawn as they signed the first Oslo peace Accord.

[Edward Said]

We who have fought against you, the Palestinians, we say to you today in a loud and a clear voice, enough of blood and tears. Enough. Now, as we stand on the threshold of this new historic era, let me address the people of Israel.

[Narrator]

Do you remember when Edward found out about Oslo? Did he find out with the rest of the world?

[Daniel Barenboim]

Yeah, best of the word.

[Narrator]

Arafat recognized Israel's right to exist, and the Israeli government recognized the PLO as the representative of the Palestinians whom it gave limited governing authority in the occupied Palestinian territories. Much of the world celebrated, but Edward Said was furious at Arafat.

[Edward Said]

He committed the Palestinians without ever informing them of what he was committing them to, even he didn't know it. One of his closest assistant, who in fact is the architect of Oslo, said that it took Arafat a year to understand that he didn't get a state.

[Daniel Barenboim]

He was very upset, extremely upset because you talk about democracy and you don't tell your people you are doing this.

[Edward Said]

He was at a low ebb in terms of popularity and money. And so. So I think the agreement was a way of saving himself rather than thinking of his people.

[Narrator]

And while many in the American media touted it as the first step towards peace, said was sounding an alarm.

[Edward Said]

Nothing in the agreements that Arafat has signed says anything about the end of occupation. The Israelis are still there, the armies are still there, the settlements are increasing in size and number. So it's a terrible deal in my opinion. The future really looks very, very bleak.

[Daniel Barenboim]

He never talked to Arafat after that.

[Timothy Brennan]

And he came out looking like a prophet.

[Edward Said]

The fact is that more Palestinians have been killed since the thing was signed. The Gaza Strip is a forsaken spot, a mixture of graffiti filled deprivation and Israeli occupation. The militant is Islamic group Hamas says the Israeli incursions have simply created more militants prepared to die for the Palestinian cause. The Hamas faction says one of its members blew himself up yesterday in a seaside hotel north of Tel Aviv just as a crowd was beginning a traditional Passover meal. Israeli police say 20 people died. This idea that somehow we should protect ourselves against the infiltration, infiltrations, the infections of the other is I think, the most dangerous idea at the end of 20th century. The challenge now is coexistence. How do we accept difference without violence and hostility?

[Narrator]

I'm thinking about this 90s and early 2000 period, the last decade of his life, when he's watching the intensification of the occupation and he's watching violence between Israelis and Palestinians amplify what maintained his belief in coexistence even in the face of those realities towards the end of his life.

[Timothy Brennan]

Because it's the only way to go. It's the only option left. The two state solution, which is still formally maintained as the objective of the Palestinian leadership, is absolutely negated by what's already happened on the ground. Israel's been far too successful at separating all the little pockets of occupied territories from one another, creating a pass card system as the white South Africans did under apartheid. The only option left is a one state solution. That's, I think, his vision for coexistence.

[Edward Said]

Unless we find ways to do this, you know there's going to be wholesale Violence of the sort represented by the Gulf War, by the killings in Bosnia, the Rwandan massacre.

[Narrator]

But Said continued to face attacks, questioning the sincerity of that vision. One headline in Commentary magazine read professor of Terror. Shortly before Said's memoir, Out of Place, was released in 1999, an Israeli American lawyer who had once worked for Israel's Ministry of Justice published a piece called My Beautiful Old House and Other Fabrications by Edward Said, questioning Said's claims of growing up in Palestine.

[Edward Said]

He never talked to me, never asked me any questions, anything. He said, it wasn't necessary. He did it all from the records. Be that as it may, the Wall Street Journal, the New York Times, the Washington Post, all the major newspapers carried either articles by him or about this. I submitted a rebuttal. None of them would publish it. Acting on a whim, I said, let me send it to Haaretz in Israel. They published it the next day in Hebrew, so I could publish more easily in Israel than I can in the United States. Quite extraordinary.

[Narrator]

And then there was the rock heard round the world. In 2000, Said traveled to the Lebanese Israeli border. Soon after, the 22 year Israeli occupation of southern Lebanon ended.

[Meryam Said]

There's a lot of fencing at the border and then there's like a no man's land in between watchtowers that had been abandoned. And so people were picking up rocks and throwing it over the border.

[Narrator]

Said picks up a rock and throws it. A photographer snaps a photo. And then.

[Meryam Said]

Then that picture was widely interpreted as, oh, he's an apostle of violence. And the pro Israel crowd latched onto it. And there were calls for his removal.

[Narrator]

His removal from Columbia University, where he'd been a professor for nearly four decades by this point, Said issued a statement where he described it as, quote, a symbolic gesture of joy that the occupation had ended.

[Meryam Said]

The administration stood by him and told him, don't worry about it. We know who you are, we know what you stand for, and we are willing to withstand the pressure.

[Edward Said]

Time is in only one direction, and in a certain sense, the actual performance of a piece of music and the flow of music, there's something so inevitable about it right at the same time that it's not recoverable because once you've played it, it's gone. It is this feeling of, of having lived through a life.

[Narrator]

Edward Said was diagnosed with cancer in 1991. He decided to use the time he had left to begin a new project based in his lifelong love of classical music. And he would do it alongside his class close friend, Daniel Barenboim.

[Edward Said]

Mr. Barenboim can you remember that first meeting? What struck you about Mr. Said?

[Meryam Said]

I knew, of course, who he was.

[Edward Said]

And, you know, and what he had written. And I found him extremely charming and very pleasant company.

[Meryam Said]

Daniel Barenboim is an Israeli Jewish conductor.

[Daniel Barenboim]

His family emigrated from Argentina to Israel in 1952 or 53.

[Narrator]

And when Edward bumped into him in a hotel lobby in London in the early 90s, Daniel was the conductor of the Chicago Symphony Orchestra. They hit it off immediately.

[Edward Said]

I think the main thing is the fact that we're both passionate about music.

[Narrator]

In 1999, they decided to organize a workshop together which would bring Palestinian, Arab and Israeli musicians together in one orchestra to play a concert. And they would do it in a city in Germany called Weimar.

[Edward Said]

Weimar is a very special city in German history. It was in East Germany, of course, but it also was the city of Goethe and Schiller, plus the fact that a few kilometers away was Buchenwald, one of the worst of the death camps.

[Narrator]

They were worried no musicians would want to be a part of the workshop, given everything happening on the ground. But they got hundreds of applications from Palestinian, Israeli, Lebanese, Syrian, Jordanian and Egyptian musicians.

[Daniel Barenboim]

When the orchestra performed in Weimar at the end of the workshop, there were Germans playing with Israelis and with Arabs.

[Edward Said]

At the moment that they were playing, in a strange sort of way, their personal identities and histories sort of dropped away. They become sort of irrelevant, and what's relevant is what they're doing towards you.

[Narrator]

After the workshop, Edward and Daniel decided to create a foundation together to make the orchestra more permanent. They called it the West Eastern Divan Orchestra. It faced some pushback.

[Daniel Barenboim]

People who said that this is normalization.

[Narrator]

Normalization of dangerous realities on the ground through one small example of harmony.

[Daniel Barenboim]

But for Edward, Edward Said, this was the most important thing I did in my life.

[Narrator]

When Edward said died in 2003, Meryam and Daniel teamed up to make sure the orchestra lived on. They've made space for Iranian musicians in the orchestra as well and created a music conservatory in Berlin, Germany. In 2016, the West Eastern Divan Orchestra was named a UN Global Advocate for Cultural Understanding. I came across this poem that Mahmoud Darweesh, the famous Palestinian poet, his friend for many years, wrote to honor him. It's called Tibaq, which means counterpoint or contradiction. And there's this moment in the poem where Dadweesh is imagining a conversation with Edward Said. I say life only known by its opposite. It is death, it is not life, says he. We shall live even if life leaves us alone. We must be the masters of words that will immortalize readers. If I die before you, I urge you to cling to the impossible. I asked, is the impossible distant? He replied, a generation away. What was that impossible thing that. That he clung to.

[Meryam Said]

Liberation?

[Edward Said]

I think.

[Meryam Said]

Maybe it's two generations away now.

[Edward Said]

A Palestinian village in the occupied West Bank. There is no such thing as a West Bank. It's Judea and Samaria. Dozens of Israeli settlers steal in wearing balaclavas and carrying sticks. There's no such thing as an occupation.

[Timothy Brennan]

The weekend attack on Israel by hundreds.

[Narrator]

Of Hamas fighters has touched off a war.

[Timothy Brennan]

Videos show militants rounding up men, women and children.

[Edward Said]

More than 50,000 Palestinians have been killed in Gaza. An incredible piece of important real estate. Relentless bombardment. So people have been pushed to the very brink.

[Narrator]

Children are starving.

[Edward Said]

Every hospital is the sound of children screaming. Very puzzled by the constant concern which the world is showing for these horrible, inhuman animals.

[Daniel Barenboim]

Everybody asks the question, what would he have said? Nobody knows what he would have said. He always had a vision that nobody else, in my opinion, nobody else had it. And he always said, you have to keep giving the people hope.

[Meryam Said]

The words of Edward Said provide some measure of continuity, of struggle, some measure of maybe even desire to look for life in a time of extreme death. He was a man who really represented the possibilities of life, and he represented it not just for himself, but for the Palestinian people.

[Edward Said]

Is it too soon to expect that these histories of blind prejudice and powerful fantasy can be balanced and perhaps resolved by a more enduring history of ordinary lives of reconciliation and recognition?

[Meryam Said]

That's it for this week's show.

[Edward Said]

I'm Ramtin Arablouei.

[Narrator]

I'm Randapir Fattah and you've been listening to Throughline from npr.

[Timothy Brennan]

This episode was produced by me and.

[Narrator]

Me and Lawrence Wu, Julie K, Anya Steinberg, Casey Minor, Christina Kim, Devin Kadayama, Irene Noguchi.

[Timothy Brennan]

Fact checking for this episode was done by Kevin Voelkel.

[Narrator]

This episode was mixed and mastered by Jimmy Keeley. Thank you to VPRO and Levin and Wurkin. Thanks also to Amber C, Tony Cavan, James Heider, Nadia Lancy, Johannes Durgi, Jessica Payne, Nicolette Kahn, Katie Doggart, Edith Chapin, and Colin Campbell.

[Timothy Brennan]

And finally, if you have an idea or like something you heard on the.

[Meryam Said]

Show, please write [e-mail] and make sure.

[Narrator]

You follow us on Apple, Spotify or the NPR app.

[Meryam Said]

That way you'll never miss an episode.

[Narrator]

Thanks for listening.

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