Pride, Prejudice, and Peer Pressure

Summary

Throughline – "Pride, Prejudice, and Peer Pressure"

NPR | Hosts: Rund Abdelfatah & Ramtin Arablouei | Airdate: December 11, 2025

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Overview

This episode of Throughline uses Jane Austen’s "Pride and Prejudice"—on the eve of her 250th birthday—as a lens to examine timeless social anxieties: status, gender, economic insecurity, misjudgment, and, above all, the tension between individuality and conformity. Hosts Rund Abdelfatah and Ramtin Arablouei revisit Austen’s world with the help of expert guests, reflecting on how her work mirrors contemporary questions of first impressions, social mobility, personal growth, and historical context.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Why Austen? (02:06–07:40)

• Rund reveals her long-standing obsession with "Pride and Prejudice," despite her own post-colonial family history with Britain, signaling the book’s cross-cultural allure.
• She proposes to Ramtin: if by the end he’s convinced, he’ll watch a Jane Austen adaptation (“Bride and Prejudice” wins).
• Rund notes: “There are millions of other people who are also hooked.” (06:24)

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2. The Set-Up: Pride & Prejudice’s Opening Moves (09:28–11:29)

• The instantly iconic opening line is dissected:
  • “It is a truth universally acknowledged that a single man in possession of a good fortune must be in want of a wife.” (09:33)
• Guest John Mullen (University College London), underscores Austen’s irony and satirical edge.
  • Mullen: “[Jane Austen is] starting with a sort of ironical version of that world where everybody's desperate about getting married. Jane Austen is saying that, but she's laughing at it.” (09:49)
• Early family scenes introduce the economic fragility of the Bennetts—and by extension, Austen and her real-life contemporaries.

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3. Austen’s Social Mirror: Gender and Inheritance (12:20–14:47)

• Lizzie Dunford (Director, Jane Austen House) draws the parallel between Elizabeth Bennet’s lack of options and Austen’s own life, affected by inheritance laws and limited opportunities.
  • Dunford: “How do they deal with that risk? ...They do it through marriage.” (13:12)
• Rund connects Austen’s reality: never super-wealthy, minimal schooling but always writing, financially vulnerable after her father’s death, dependent on her brothers.

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4. First Impressions—And How We’re Still Making Them (16:40–17:15)

• Ramtin draws a modern link: dating apps are today’s equivalent of 19th-century social chess.
• Elizabeth’s initial (and mistaken) dislike of Darcy reflects the peril of snap judgments.
  • Rund: “We all have this instinct when we meet someone, we're making a snap judgment, and that really shapes, like, how we interact with people.” (16:40)
• The charming Mr. Wickham’s lies about Darcy demonstrate the danger of trusting only surface impressions.

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5. Female Agency and Defiance (19:02–20:46)

• Elizabeth famously rejects Mr. Collins’ pragmatic marriage proposal, despite immense family pressure.
• Memorable moment: When forced to choose between her parents’ opposing wishes, her father supports her will.
  • “An unhappy alternative is before you… your mother will never see you again if you do not marry Mr. Collins. And I will never see you again if you do.” (19:27–20:13)

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6. Growth & Change: The Value of Changing Your Mind (31:52–34:27)

• After Darcy explains himself in a letter, Elizabeth acknowledges her own past prejudice—a radical moment of self-awareness.

  • “…she had been blind, partial, prejudiced, absurd.” (33:20)
  • “Till this moment, I never knew myself.” (34:07)
  • Ramtin: “That's a bar.” (34:09)

• Rund and Ramtin note how rare and vital this willingness to adapt is, both then and now.

  • Ramtin: “People changing their minds, that's actually like strength.” (35:01)

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7. The Messiness of Social Mobility and Marriage (41:17–44:23)

• Lydia Bennet’s elopement with Wickham is a scandal; Darcy quietly intervenes to save the family’s reputation.
  • Deveney Louser: “Lydia Bennet is a very lusty young woman… And what happens…? She's absolutely unchanged and seemingly unashamed. And I think that is a very brave choice on Jane Austen's part.” (42:16)
• Multiple routes available—Elizabeth for love, Charlotte Lucas for security, Lydia for impulsive desire—show the differing paths and pressures for women.

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8. Equality, Power, and Gender—Then and Now (47:13–49:10)

• Rund and guests highlight that ultimate compatibility in the book is intellectual, not economic.
  • Louser: “…he goes after this woman who is his intellectual equal.” (47:41)
  • Elizabeth’s witty comeback: “He is a gentleman. I am a gentleman's daughter. So far, we are equal.” (46:38)
• “Equality,” a watchword of the revolutionary era Austen lived through, shapes her vision of partnership.

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9. Confronting Austen’s Colonial Context (50:00–51:44)

• Rund introduces Edward Said’s critique: does Austen’s focus on domesticity “normalize” the exploitative imperial economy of her time?
  • Rund defends that Austen wrote what she knew, subtly mocking and exposing the social system.
• The hosts acknowledge the complex legacy of her work: is it escapist fantasy or subtle critique?

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10. Austen as Pop Culture—Transformations and Adaptations (52:00–53:56)

• The “chick lit” branding of Austen is recent—a product of postwar publishing and marketing, not the books’ original audience.
  • Covers and adaptations shift how the books are received (“pandering to the female gaze”).
• Rund recounts the iconic lake scene in the ’95 “Pride and Prejudice” adaptation (53:00–53:41).

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11. Austen’s Timelessness, and Final Takeaways (54:06–55:38)

• The hosts marvel at the adaptability of Austen’s story—surviving reinterpretation for generations and technologies (even AI Darcy)!
• Ramtin, a skeptic at episode’s start, concedes: “It’s much more layered than I expected it to be. To be honest, I just thought it was silly, fun, romance stuff.” (54:24)
• Ultimately, he commits to watching “Bride and Prejudice” as his Austen initiation: “You convinced me. I have to admit it...after all this, I still am going to go with the Bollywood version.” (55:09)

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• On Austen’s Irony

  • “Today, it's so characteristic of Jane Austen…she’s laughing at [the dilemma of marriage].”
    — John Mullen (09:49)

• On First Impressions

  • “She is tolerable, but not handsome enough to tempt me.” — Mr. Darcy (04:58)

• On Self-Reflection

  • “‘Till this moment, I never knew myself.’” — Elizabeth Bennet (34:07)
  • “That's a bar.” — Ramtin (34:09)

• On Gender and Class Equality

  • “‘He is a gentleman. I am a gentleman's daughter. So far, we are equal.’” — Elizabeth Bennet (46:38)
  • “What this book shows us is how attractive a man is ... because he appreciates a woman who is smart and funny.” — Deveney Louser (47:17)

• On Colonial Context

  • “By focusing on the domestic world of these privileged elite, she's risking normalizing the system behind it...” — Rund, summarizing Edward Said (50:31)

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Timestamps for Crucial Segments

• [02:06] Rund’s Austen “origin story” and existential conflict
• [09:33] Dissecting the famous first line
• [13:12] The stakes of marriage for women in Austen’s era
• [16:40] First impressions, then and now
• [19:27] Elizabeth’s pivotal parental showdown on marriage
• [31:52–34:07] Elizabeth’s moment of self-revelation and change
• [41:17] Lydia’s elopement, and Darcy’s decisive intervention
• [46:38] Elizabeth asserts her equality to Lady Catherine
• [50:00] The empire critique: Edward Said’s argument
• [53:00] 1995 adaptation and the “female gaze”
• [54:24] Ramtin’s Austen conversion; Bollywood adaptation plans

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Tone & Takeaways

• The episode is witty, self-aware, and inviting, mirroring Austen’s own combination of warmth and irony.
• Rund’s deep affection and Ramtin’s initial skepticism create room for honest inquiry and fun banter.
• The podcast concludes that "Pride and Prejudice" continues to resonate because it centers self-discovery, growth, and questioning of social pressure—universal concerns that transcend time, culture, and format.

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This summary is designed to offer an immersive overview of the episode for listeners new and seasoned alike—whether you’re an Austen fanatic, a skeptical Ramtin, or someone simply navigating today’s social chessboard.

Transcript

[Sponsor/Announcer]

This message comes from KeyBank. This year, Key for Women is celebrating 20 years, two decades of empowering business leaders and strengthening communities together. Key for Women made an impact, and they're just getting started. Learn [e-mail] women hey, it's Rund.

[Rund Abdelfatah]

Before we start the show today, I want to talk for a minute about public media because it's what makes Throughline and all the podcasts you love from NPR unique. Public media is made for you. It centers and serves you the listener by providing educational shows on TV and radio meant to enrich your understanding and your life. We believe in these commitments. We always will. But as of this fall, federal funding for public media, including NPR and local NPR stations, has been eliminated. As we move into this uncharted future together, we know that you will not let the service that has been here for you all these years for falter. This year, we at Throughline have loved bringing you episodes about everything from the story of the US Mexico border to war reporting to the subsea cables that power the global Internet. And we can't wait to see what we'll get into together in 2026. Thank you if you already go the extra mile as a Throughline supporter. If not, you can join the PLUS community, get a bunch of perks like bonus episodes and more from across NPR's podcasts and support public by signing up for NPR today at plus.NPR.org now onto the show.

[Narrator/Reader]

If I can but see one of my daughters happily settled and all the others in equally well married, I shall have nothing to wish for.

[Rund Abdelfatah]

Okay, Ramtin, where.

[Ramtin Arablouei]

Where are we right now?

[Rund Abdelfatah]

I'm gonna let you into a secret room in my mind where this book by Jane Austen, pride and Prejudice, lives rent free.

[Ramtin Arablouei]

I mean, I've never read the book, but I've heard of it, obviously. Like everyone else, I also know you're obsessed.

[Rund Abdelfatah]

Yeah, I mean, look, it's, it's a book that I've loved since I was a teenager for sure. And we're getting into sit by a fire in reed season. In my case, you know, a virtual fireplace on my tv. And I've been revisiting it. So let me take you there.

[Ramtin Arablouei]

Let's go.

[Rund Abdelfatah]

We're in a small town in Southern England, turn of the 19th century. Lots of green and rolling hills. Think great British Bake off, but more corsets and candles.

[Ramtin Arablouei]

Pristine.

[Narrator/Reader]

Yeah.

[Rund Abdelfatah]

And we're at a ball.

[Narrator/Reader]

To be fond of dancing was a certain step towards falling in love.

[Rund Abdelfatah]

Since this is a public ball, the room is packed with local townspeople. There's a small band of musicians playing in the corner. But our real focus is the Bennett family. Five sisters who are at the dance with their mom, Mrs. Bennett. Their dad, Mr. Bennett stayed home because he hates things like this.

[Ramtin Arablouei]

That would have been me, 100%. I'm Mr. Bennett.

[Rund Abdelfatah]

The sisters, they're all really different. Lydia and Kitty, the two youngest, are attached at the hip. They're both boy crazy teens. Then you've got the middle sister, Mary. She's a little quirky and wants to play the piano all day. And then we get to the two oldest sisters who are very close, Jane and Elizabeth Bennet.

[Ramtin Arablouei]

Elizabeth Bennet, I know that name.

[Rund Abdelfatah]

She's the driving force of the story, and she comes up in our pop culture like almost as much as Hamlet or Scrooge. So as the sisters are mingling, their mom is getting drunk and loudly talking about how they need to find a husband. And then cue that scene you've probably seen in a million movies. The gust of wind, the doors swing open, and in walks vampires. Get out of here, Ramtin.

Anyway, so these two guys walk in who catch the eye of the Bennett sister, Mr. Bingley.

[Narrator/Reader]

Good looking and gentlemanlike, he's a solid.

[Rund Abdelfatah]

Nice guy, maybe a little boring. But more importantly, he's just bought the biggest estate in town, so he's loaded. And his buddy, Mr. Darcy, who's actually even richer than him.

[Narrator/Reader]

Okay, the ladies declared he was much handsomer than Mr. Bingley.

[Rund Abdelfatah]

But Mr. Darcy lacks people skills, to put it mildly. And he also refuses to dance.

[Narrator/Reader]

What a contrast between him and his friends.

[Rund Abdelfatah]

Mr. Bingley eventually goes over to him and is like, there's so many cute girls here. But Darcy doesn't agree.

[Narrator/Reader]

You are dancing with the only handsome girl in the room.

[Rund Abdelfatah]

Mr. Bingley's been dancing with Jane Bennet, but okay, he says, what about her sister Elizabeth? She's not too shabby. Then Darcy turns to look at Elizabeth and within her earshot says, she is.

[Narrator/Reader]

Tolerable, but not handsome enough to tempt me.

[Ramtin Arablouei]

Savage.

[Rund Abdelfatah]

If I heard a guy say that about me, I'd probably wallow for a while.

[Narrator/Reader]

But Elizabeth, she told the story with great spirit among her friends, for she had a lively, playful disposition which delighted in anything ridiculous.

[Rund Abdelfatah]

Basically, she laughs it off and vows never to dance with Mr. Darcy. But you get the sense that on some level, it really hurts her. And this is kind of the foundational scene of the book, the beginning of the relationship between Elizabeth Bennet and Mr. Darcy. The Pride and the Prejudice are set.

[Ramtin Arablouei]

That was actually more fun than I thought it was gonna be, honestly. But, like, why are you bringing this up now?

[Rund Abdelfatah]

You know, I've actually thought about this since I was a teenager. That's when I first read Pride and Prejudice, when I sort of fell in love with the whole Jane Austen universe. And, like, as I've gotten older, being a first generation immigrant, being the daughter of Palestinian refugees who fled a place that had been, you know, colonized at one point by the British, it made me, like, I had a little bit of an identity crisis. I was like, why? Why am I, like, so into these stories that this British woman who was born in the 18th century wrote?

[Ramtin Arablouei]

It's like, what part of. Has always kind of turned me off?

[Rund Abdelfatah]

Sure.

[Ramtin Arablouei]

From this genre, actually.

[Rund Abdelfatah]

Very, very fair. Right. But, like, I know I'm not alone. I know there are millions of other people who are also hooked.

[Listener/Caller]

Yeah.

[Rund Abdelfatah]

And then I saw that, you know, December 16, 2025, is the 250th anniversary of Jane Austen's birthday. So I was like, okay, let me use this as an excuse to finally look into this.

[Ramtin Arablouei]

I'm down.

[Rund Abdelfatah]

Oh, good.

I should say. There's gonna be spoilers.

[Ramtin Arablouei]

Obviously, I'm gonna keep it real. I'm not going back to read all these books. So I'm up for the spoilers. I'm here for the journey. Okay.

[Sponsor/Announcer]

Okay.

[Rund Abdelfatah]

I actually assumed you were gonna say that. And so my pitch to you is, if by the end of this episode, you are a Jane Austen convert, okay, you have to choose one of the adaptations to watch.

[Deveney Louser]

Okay.

[Rund Abdelfatah]

And then you have to geek out about it with me on a Throughline episode.

[Ramtin Arablouei]

All right, I am hesitantly down for that.

[Rund Abdelfatah]

Let me walk you through just a few of them. Okay, so there's this classic 1995 one.

[Narrator/Reader]

I have every reason in the world to think they love you.

[Rund Abdelfatah]

Bridget Jones diary. I'm afraid I'm a bit hungover. There's a Bollywood version. I hated seeing you with Wickham.

[Sponsor/Announcer]

In India.

[Rund Abdelfatah]

There's a Keira Knightley version.

[Narrator/Reader]

I wonder who first discovered the power of poetry in driving away love.

[Rund Abdelfatah]

There's one with zombies.

[Narrator/Reader]

You're undead.

[Rund Abdelfatah]

And there's one that takes place on Fire Island.

[Ramtin Arablouei]

Fire Island?

[Rund Abdelfatah]

Uh huh.

[Ramtin Arablouei]

I'm trying to see the Bollywood one.

[Rund Abdelfatah]

It's called Bride and Prejudice, by the way.

All right, I'm excited. Here we go.

Hi, this is Jewel from Toledo, Ohio. You're listening to through I from NPR.

[Sponsor/Announcer]

This message comes from BetterHelp. The holidays are a time of traditions like making your grandmother's pudding recipe or watching that movie you've seen a thousand times. Incorporating therapy into your life can help you take time for yourself during what can be a joyful but sometimes tough time of year. And by caring for yourself, you can show up more for the important moments. This December, start a new tradition by taking care of you. Visit betterhelp.com NPR for 10% off.

[Listener/Caller]

This message comes from Schwab. Everyone has moments when they could have done better. Same goes for where you invest. Level up and invest smarter with Schwab. Get market insights, education and human help when you need it.

[Sponsor/Announcer]

Support for NPR and the following message come from Rosetta Stone. The perfect app to achieve your language learning goals no matter how busy your schedule gets. It's designed to maximize study time with immersive 10 minute lessons and audio practice for your commute. Plus tailor your learning plan for specific objectives like travel. Get Rosetta Stone's lifetime membership for 50% off and unlimited access to 25 language courses. Learn more at rosettastone.com NPR this message comes from Progressive Insurance and the name your price tool. It helps you find car insurance options in your budget. Try it [e-mail], progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates price and coverage match limited by state law. Not available in all states.

Part 1 Can we trust a first impression?

[Narrator/Reader]

It is a truth universally acknowledged that a single man in possession of a good fortune must be in want of a wife.

[Rund Abdelfatah]

This is the very first line of Pride and Prejudice.

[Ramtin Arablouei]

It sounds familiar. What a hilarious sentiment, right?

[John Mullen]

Today, it's so characteristic of Jane Austen that she starts with a sort of ironical version of that world where everybody's desperate about getting married. Jane Austen is saying that, but she's laughing at it.

[Rund Abdelfatah]

Oh, did I mention I'm gonna have some expertsausten superfans helping me out today? His name is John Mullen.

[Sponsor/Announcer]

Okay.

[John Mullen]

I'm professor of English Literature at University College, London, and I'm the author of what Matters in Jane Austen.

[Rund Abdelfatah]

John has spent years dissecting every word Austen has written.

[John Mullen]

When I was a teenage boy, I didn't quite realize how wonderful she was because nobody got shot. And you know, nobody traveled down the Congo river and nobody hunted a whale in the Southern Ocean. You know what? It's just some people making mistakes about who fancies who and who doesn't fancy who.

[Rund Abdelfatah]

I bet that's what you thought when you were a teenager. I'm teen.

[Ramtin Arablouei]

Yeah.

[Rund Abdelfatah]

Well, look, when John finally gave Austen the time of day, he realized this focus on ordinary people living ordinary lives was their greatest strength.

[John Mullen]

That's kind of liberated the novel, I think.

[Rund Abdelfatah]

Let's jump back into the world of Pride and Prejudice with John as our guide.

[Narrator/Reader]

My dear Mr. Bennet, said his lady to him one day, have you heard that Netherfield park is let at last? Mr. Bennet replied that he had not, but it is. Mr. Bennet made no answer in the.

[John Mullen]

First chapter after that famous opening sentence. What you get is almost entirely dialogue between these two people. You've never met before. Mr. And Mrs. Bennet.

[Narrator/Reader]

Do you not want to know who has taken it? Cried his wife impatiently. You want to tell me, and I have no objection to hearing it. This was invitation enough.

[John Mullen]

It's pretty clear to any intelligent reader that he is sort of teasing her. But she doesn't understand. And the subject of the conversation isn't the arrival of this rich young man in a neighboring estate.

[Narrator/Reader]

What is his name? Bingley. Is he married or single? Oh, single, my dear, to be sure. A single man of large fortune. Four or five thousand a year. What a fine thing for our girls. How so? How can it affect them? How can you be so tiresome? You must know that I am thinking of his marrying one of them.

[John Mullen]

The Bennetts have five daughters. None of the daughters are going to inherit the estate because it's left to a male descendant. Mr. Bennet. He hadn't made sufficient provision for his wife and daughters.

[Lizzie Dunford]

I think it's a mirror. I think it's a mirror to her reality.

[Ramtin Arablouei]

Who's this?

[Rund Abdelfatah]

Lizzie Dunford.

[Listener/Caller]

Okay.

[Rund Abdelfatah]

She's the director of Jane Austen House, which is the actual house where Austen lived the last decade of her life and finished writing Pride and Prejudice. I tried to coordinate a visit, but, you know, it's not in the budget anyway, so. So Lizzie, you know, she told me that the book is really reflecting the world that Jane Austen actually lived in, where women like her and like Elizabeth Bennet can't inherit property, can't work in most professions, and mostly depend on the men in their lives for economic security.

[Lizzie Dunford]

How do they deal with that risk? How do they find a safe and secure home? They do it through marriage.

[Ramtin Arablouei]

Basically, Jane Austen is creating these characters that are in the same situation she's in.

[Rund Abdelfatah]

I mean, similar situations. So here's what we know about how she grew up, what her life was like. She wasn't actually super wealthy, which surprised me when I found that out. She only went to school for a year, but her father taught her and she began writing short stories at age 11. She just had this natural gift. And her father was loving, like Mr. Bennet but also, like him, didn't have a lot of extra cash. So when he died in 1805, Austin and her mom and sister. Austin was 29. Relied on her brothers for support. And that's a big difference from the Bennet sisters, who had no brothers.

[Ramtin Arablouei]

And she's 29 and unmarried.

[Rund Abdelfatah]

She and her sister never got married, actually.

[Ramtin Arablouei]

But she's got to be unusual to be unmarried at 29. Was she actually able to make money from the stuff she was writing?

[Rund Abdelfatah]

So it's interesting. She was writing for a long time, decades before she started publishing, around her mid-30s. But it wasn't actually enough to live off of, even though they were very popular books. And that's pretty much what we know about her. We've got around 160 letters that she wrote and some collections of memories and anecdotes from people who knew her or say they knew her. That's it.

[Ramtin Arablouei]

Okay.

[Rund Abdelfatah]

There were more letters, but her sister actually burned them.

[Ramtin Arablouei]

Well, what do you mean burned?

[Rund Abdelfatah]

Threw them in the fire, likely to protect her privacy.

[Ramtin Arablouei]

Okay.

[Rund Abdelfatah]

But there is this small part of me that wonders if maybe she was covering up a scandal, but that's totally fanfiction territory.

[Ramtin Arablouei]

Yeah.

[Rund Abdelfatah]

That's the asterisk.

[Ramtin Arablouei]

Yeah. You're such a conspiracy theorist. I love it. I love it.

[Lizzie Dunford]

Okay.

[Rund Abdelfatah]

With this stuff. Yeah, but.

[Ramtin Arablouei]

Okay, so I see this, like, kind of parallel in the book with economic struggle, the kind of social chess game these people were playing.

[Rund Abdelfatah]

You're picking up what I'm putting down. And even just from those first few pages in that conversation between Mr. And Mrs. Bennet, you're getting a good amount of this.

[Ramtin Arablouei]

I'm gonna keep it real, though, right now. And maybe because as, like, a guy with a family, you know, now, I don't know about Mr. Bennett Ryan.

[Rund Abdelfatah]

Okay, tell me more.

[Ramtin Arablouei]

Okay. Like, he's kind of funny, but, like, come on, man, he's. How you gonna leave your family out to dry? Like, there's something about that doesn't stick right with me.

[Rund Abdelfatah]

Yeah. Yeah. I have a very different read on him now versus when I was 15. When I first read it. I liked him. I thought he was funny. He reminded me a little of my own dad.

[Ramtin Arablouei]

Yeah, he's got the hokey dad thing going on, right?

[Rund Abdelfatah]

Yeah. He didn't, like, take all the marriage stuff so seriously. And for me, at that time, I was, like, growing up in a conservative Muslim household. You know how it was. You also did. Marriage was not this, like, far off thing.

[Ramtin Arablouei]

Right.

[Rund Abdelfatah]

It felt like something that was very serious. So anyway, I liked him. Then when I reread it a few weeks ago, I had the exact same reaction to him as you do, which is like, dude, you needed to step up. You didn't. So now they have to rely on marriage as a last resort.

[Ramtin Arablouei]

Interesting. It's like Mr. Bingley, Mr. Darcy. In a way, they are like lifelines. Like potential lifelines for the girls.

[Rund Abdelfatah]

Exactly. And all of it depends on if the Bennet sisters can win them over, which, as we know, for Elizabeth Bennet, doesn't get off to a great start.

[Narrator/Reader]

She is tolerable, but not handsome enough to tempt me.

[Rund Abdelfatah]

And I think what Austin is really pushing us to do in these early chapters is take a closer look at how first impressions are formed. We all have this instinct when we meet someone, we're making a snap judgment, and that really shapes, like, how we interact with people.

[Ramtin Arablouei]

It's the foundation of dating now, Right? Like, you get on the app and you have, like, literally a second going through pictures, quick blurbs, boom, boom, boom, or whatever. So everything is about the first impression.

[Rund Abdelfatah]

Now, in some ways, we're still navigating a version of the same social chessboard that Elizabeth Bennet is navigating.

[Sponsor/Announcer]

Right?

[Rund Abdelfatah]

And, like, we know for her, Mr. Darcy gives her the ick, like, right off the bat. Right. But she's then playing the field, and she meets this other guy. Mr. Wickham.

[Ramtin Arablouei]

What a name.

[Rund Abdelfatah]

Remember his name. Okay.

[Ramtin Arablouei]

Wickham. I'll remember that.

[Rund Abdelfatah]

He makes a really good first impression on Elizabeth. He's a man in uniform, a soldier who's passing through with his regiment. He's handsome and smooth, talking, and they flirt and laugh, and he talks a lot of ish about Mr. Darcy.

[Ramtin Arablouei]

So he's got beef with Mr. Darcy?

[Rund Abdelfatah]

Oh, yeah, yeah, they got beef. Mr. Wickham. He tells Elizabeth that they grew up together, and Darcy's father liked him. Wickham more. And when he died, Darcy cheated Wickham out of his inheritance, out of jealousy.

[Ramtin Arablouei]

So he's basically setting up Darcy as this, like, extremely sketchy guy.

[Rund Abdelfatah]

Yeah.

Okay, so if you're counting, Elizabeth now has two potential suitors. Darcy, who she hates. Wickham, who she's into. And then she gets a curveball. Her cousin, the heir to the Bennet home, Mr. Collins.

[Ramtin Arablouei]

Her cousin?

[Rund Abdelfatah]

Yeah. We're not gonna get into all that ramptin.

[Lizzie Dunford]

Okay?

[Rund Abdelfatah]

It's a different time.

[Ramtin Arablouei]

I'll just say it.

[John Mullen]

Mr. Collins is a silly man.

[Rund Abdelfatah]

Austin describes him as a mixture of servility and self importance.

[Ramtin Arablouei]

Like, he thinks he's more charming than he is.

[Rund Abdelfatah]

Yeah. And he does decides Elizabeth should be his wife. But by the way, only after finding out her prettier older sister Jane is already expecting a proposal for Mr. Bingley. Long story short, he proposes almost as.

[Narrator/Reader]

Soon as I entered the house. I singled you out as the companion of my future life.

[Rund Abdelfatah]

He tells Elizabeth all the reasons this marriage would be a good deal for her.

[Ramtin Arablouei]

Like, obviously financially.

[Rund Abdelfatah]

Yeah, he knows she's not inheriting anything, but she can't bring herself to make the practical choice and rejects him.

[Ramtin Arablouei]

Her mom's gonna crash out.

[Rund Abdelfatah]

She does. She calls her headstrong, headstrong foolish girl with no idea what's best for her.

[Narrator/Reader]

But I will make her know it.

[Rund Abdelfatah]

Then she runs to Mr. Bennet, screaming, oh no.

[Narrator/Reader]

Oh, Mr. Bennet, you must come and make Lizzie marry Mr. Collins. Mr. Bennet raised his eyes from his book as she entered. And what am I to do on the occasion? It seems a hopeless business. Speak to Lizzie about it yourself. Tell her that you insist upon her marrying him. Mrs. Bennet rang the bell and Miss Elizabeth was summoned to the library. Come here, child. I understand that Mr. Collins has made you an offer of marriage. Is it true? Elizabeth replied that it was. Your mother insists upon your accepting it. Is it not so, Mrs. Bennet? Yes, or I shall never see her again. An unhappy alternative is before you, Elizabeth. From this day, you must be a stranger to one of your parents. Your mother will never see you again if you do not marry Mr. Collins. And I will never see you again if you do. Elizabeth could not but smile.

[Rund Abdelfatah]

I absolutely love this scene. Cuz this moment when her father backs her up, it tells her not only do you have the right to choose, but your choice is right. Which confirms for Elizabeth that she really does have the world all figured out and that she's amazing at reading people.

[Ramtin Arablouei]

I sense a but coming up here though.

[Rund Abdelfatah]

Coming up, everything Elizabeth thinks she knows and we know will be turned upside down.

Hello, this is Bryce Geeling from Kent, Ohio, and you're listening to Throughline by npr.

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[Rund Abdelfatah]

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[Listener/Caller]

Support for this podcast and the following message come from the University of Kansas Health System. Where even the smallest acts have the power to transform lives. Where innovations are made to advance patient treatment in order to provide the best patient care. Because every moment, every success story, and every life uplifted makes the University of Kansas Health System who they are. Learn [e-mail] Part 2 Are you allowed.

[Rund Abdelfatah]

To change your mind?

[Narrator/Reader]

Till Elizabeth entered the drawing room at Netherfield and looked in vain for Mr. Wickham along the cluster of redcoats there assembled, a doubt of his being present had never occurred to her.

[Ramtin Arablouei]

Is this another ball? Is this all these people do?

[Rund Abdelfatah]

This one is spicy, I promise.

[Ramtin Arablouei]

I'm ready for spice.

[Rund Abdelfatah]

That's.

[Ramtin Arablouei]

I want to hear it.

[John Mullen]

Balls are a big deal in Jane Austen novels because it's a way of meeting possible partners and a world in which you're not supposed to really be alone in the company of a young man if you're a young woman, unless you're engaged. And I think it's got quite a sort of erotic voltage, actually.

[Rund Abdelfatah]

So Elizabeth has just arrived at Netherfield, the estate Mr. Bingley owns, where he's hosting a private ball, meaning invite only. Elizabeth is really excited to see Mr. Wickham again, that soldier she's into. But then she overhears someone say, I.

[Narrator/Reader]

Do not imagine his business would have called him away just now if he had not wished to avoid a certain gentleman here.

[Rund Abdelfatah]

He's not going to show up. Because he's avoiding Mr. Darcy.

[Ramtin Arablouei]

Because they got beef, right?

[Rund Abdelfatah]

They got beef. And in the middle of complaining to her best friend about Mr. Darcy, and guess who shows up to ask her to dance?

[Ramtin Arablouei]

I guess he dances now.

[Rund Abdelfatah]

Well, Austin, she's let us, the reader, know that he's been secretly pining for Elizabeth since the moment they met.

[Narrator/Reader]

Without knowing what she did, she accepted him.

[Rund Abdelfatah]

Elizabeth has no idea why. She says yes. A detail I love, by the way. Because who hasn't made, you know, an impulsive decision like that and then questioned their own mind?

[Ramtin Arablouei]

Yeah, of course.

[Rund Abdelfatah]

Anyway, her friend tries to console her.

[Narrator/Reader]

I dare say you will find him very agreeable. Heaven forbid. That would be the greatest misfortune of all, to find a man agreeable whom one is determined to hate.

[Rund Abdelfatah]

Then the dancing begins.

At first, they're not talking, they're just moving in silence. And then Elizabeth decides it would be.

[Narrator/Reader]

The greater punishment to her part partner to oblige him to talk.

[Rund Abdelfatah]

So she makes some small Talk. Darcy responds with a few words, not a man of a lot of words, and then goes quiet again.

[Narrator/Reader]

She addressed him a second time with, it is your turn to say something now, Mr. Darcy. I talked about the dance, and you ought to make some remark on the size of the room or the number of couples. He smiled and assured her that whatever she wished him to say should be seen. Said, very well. That reply will do for the present. But now we may be silent. Do you talk by rule, then, while you are dancing? Sometimes one must speak a little.

[Ramtin Arablouei]

You know, I can't tell if they're flirting or arguing.

[Rund Abdelfatah]

Look, they're definitely sparring. And I think Austin is trying to tell us that intellectually they're on the same level. But then Elizabeth brings up Mr. Wickham.

[Narrator/Reader]

The effect was immediate. A deeper shade of OT overspread his features.

[Ramtin Arablouei]

Yo, that shot's fire.

[Rund Abdelfatah]

Oh, yeah, she's trying to push his buttons.

[Listener/Caller]

Yeah.

[Narrator/Reader]

I remember hearing you once say, Mr. Darcy, that you hardly ever forgave, that your resentment once created was unappeasable. You are very cautious, I suppose, as to its being created. I am, said he with a firm voice. And never allow yourself to be blinded by prejudice. I hope not. It is particularly incumbent on those who never change their opinion to be secure of judging properly at first. May I ask to what these questions tend? Merely to the illustration of your character.

[Ramtin Arablouei]

She is not playing around.

[Rund Abdelfatah]

Yeah. This. This whole scene, you kind of feel like they're doing this. I mean, a literal dance, but also this kind of, like, verbal dance, and they're in their own universe. Everyone else is just white noise. And, you know, right after this, you get this sense that Darcy's pretty conflicted because he's very into her, but thinks her family is pretty embarrassing. Her sisters are flirting with everybody. Her mom is openly gold digging. And he even tells his friend Bingley not to marry Elizabeth's older sister, Jane.

[Ramtin Arablouei]

Wow.

[Rund Abdelfatah]

Mm. But not long after the ball, he decides to shoot his shot with Elizabeth and proposes.

[Ramtin Arablouei]

How does that go over?

[Rund Abdelfatah]

She's totally blindsided. And, like, the way he proposes, he's basically like, you know, I've tried really hard not to be into you because you're poor and your family is trashy, but I can't help it. I love you. Which I think he thinks is romantic. Right. Like, against all odds, I love you. But Elizabeth is. Is basically like, oh, okay. Thanks for telling me all the reasons. I suck. And she flat out rejects.

[Ramtin Arablouei]

Good for her.

[Rund Abdelfatah]

Honestly, her exact words are, I felt that you were the last man in the world whom I could ever be prevailed on to marry.

[Ramtin Arablouei]

What a way to say, like, you know, piss off, Right?

[Rund Abdelfatah]

Yeah. I. I don't think there's anything he could have said in that moment that would have made her overlook the fact that Darcy totally messed things up for her sister.

[Ramtin Arablouei]

Yeah.

[Rund Abdelfatah]

And remember, Wickham's words are still in her head that Darcy is a cheat.

[Listener/Caller]

Yeah.

[Ramtin Arablouei]

This dude's like a villain.

[Rund Abdelfatah]

He's definitely a villain in her mind, and he's completely oblivious to that. But I think there's something in the way that she says it that's really striking to me. Right. She's like, you are the last man on earth I'd ever marry. So I think what Austin is telling us is like, she senses this connection they have, and she's trying to just push it down because her head is telling her something totally different.

[Ramtin Arablouei]

So.

[Rund Abdelfatah]

Okay.

[Ramtin Arablouei]

I feel like Jane Austen is, like, tapping into something very real that many of us experienced here.

[Rund Abdelfatah]

Yeah, for sure.

[Ramtin Arablouei]

And is that like, kind of what Jane Austen is signaling? That she's tapping into something personal?

[Rund Abdelfatah]

I've wondered a lot about this, too.

[Deveney Louser]

It's the million pounder, million dollar question, Right.

[Rund Abdelfatah]

This is Deveney Louser. She's a professor of English at Arizona State University, and she has a new book out called Wild for Austin. A Rebellious, Subversive and Untamed Jane.

[Ramtin Arablouei]

That's a very good title.

[Rund Abdelfatah]

It is. She told me that Austen's love life is kind of a mystery, like a lot of other things about her. But we do have some clues about where she might have drawn inspiration.

[Deveney Louser]

From her earliest years, she was interested in fashion, in balls. There are secondhand accounts, thirdhand accounts, referring to her as a husband hunting butterfly and a flirtatious young woman.

[Ramtin Arablouei]

Now, this is weird because she never got married.

[Rund Abdelfatah]

Well, okay, so she never got married, but that wasn't always a given. You know, like when she was young, preteen teen years, she had a bunch of random boys who were passing through the house because her dad had students, you know, stay with them. So she's doing a lot of observing, probably flirting. And we don't know how many proposals she got, but we do know she definitely got at least one. She was engaged for, you know, less than 24 hours, but still. And then she broke it off.

[Ramtin Arablouei]

She sounds messy, man.

[Rund Abdelfatah]

Again, why? I think there was a scandal in those burned letters, but, yeah, anyways, there was also this supposedly four week whirlwind relationship.

[Lizzie Dunford]

To call it relationship is probably a bit much.

[Rund Abdelfatah]

Lizzie Dunford again, I would say it's a flirtation.

[Narrator/Reader]

He is a very gentlemanlike, good looking, pleasant young man.

[Rund Abdelfatah]

This is how Austin described the guy in her letters. He was an Irishman named Tom Lefroy.

[Lizzie Dunford]

She describes flirting and dancing with him. And then she says, he's going to.

[Narrator/Reader]

Go away at length. The day has come on which I am to flirt my last with Tom Lefroy. And when you receive this, it will be over. My tears flow as I write at the melancholy idea.

[Ramtin Arablouei]

He's like her Darcy, it sounds like.

[Rund Abdelfatah]

I mean, look, that's a whole fan fiction universe around that question. But the truth is we really don't know.

[Ramtin Arablouei]

Nah, he's heard I'm like psychoanalyzing Jane.

[Rund Abdelfatah]

Austen now, Like, well, we all are. I mean, that's all we know about her love life. Apparently as she got older, she seemed to be less interested in playing social chess and preferred to observe it.

[Lizzie Dunford]

There's one brilliant bit with the letters. When she's in her mid to late 30s, she's going to a ball and she said, all I get to do is sit by the fire with a glass of wine. And that's gonna be great because I don't have to worry about this anymore.

[Ramtin Arablouei]

That sounds like Elizabeth Bennet.

[Deveney Louser]

Now.

[Rund Abdelfatah]

She probably would have seen that actually as a huge compliment. She loved Elizabeth. Called her as delightful a creature as ever appeared in print in one of her letters. Which, you know, it's not to say that she thought Elizabeth was perfect. She's super smart, she's not blindly following all the rules. And you know, there's like a badassery about her.

[Ramtin Arablouei]

Yeah.

[Rund Abdelfatah]

But she, she can also be like pretty quick to judge and even petty at times.

[Ramtin Arablouei]

But I think there's an appeal to that. Right. Like she's flawed in that way, she's kind of mean, but she's real.

[Rund Abdelfatah]

And I think above all, she's also able to self reflect and actually change if the facts call for it. Which I think that's where a lot of people fall short. Right.

[Ramtin Arablouei]

Yeah.

[Rund Abdelfatah]

There's this great scene after Darcy proposes where Elizabeth and we the readers have to confront some big questions. She goes for a walk early in the morning and she's kind of spiraling, thinking about that proposal. And Suddenly she spots Mr. Darcy walking toward her. He hands her a letter and walks away.

[Narrator/Reader]

With no expectation of pleasure, but with the strongest curiosity, Elizabeth opened the letter. Be not alarmed, madam, on receiving this letter by the apprehension of its containing any repetition of those sentiments or renewal of those offers which were last night so disgusting to You.

[Rund Abdelfatah]

And so in this letter, he's basically saying, forget that whole proposal thing. I just want to clear up a couple of things. And the first thing is why he talked Mr. Bingley out of marrying her sister, Jane.

[Narrator/Reader]

I remain convinced that though she received his attentions with pleasure, she did not invite them by any participation of sentiment.

[Rund Abdelfatah]

He just didn't believe Jane loved Mr. Bingley and was worried she was taking advantage of his naive, nice friend for his money.

[Ramtin Arablouei]

That's not that far fetched, considering, like, how much her mom talked about money and his money.

[Rund Abdelfatah]

Yeah. And Darcy. He mistook the fact that Jane's shy and reserved as indifference.

[Narrator/Reader]

With respect to that other, more weighty accusation of having injured Mr. Wickham, I can only refute it by laying before you the whole of his connection with my family.

[Rund Abdelfatah]

Then he tells Elizabeth what went down with Mr. Wickham. Wickham had burned through his inheritance and then took advantage of Darcy's much younger sister and almost convinced her to elope with him to get to her money. Elizabeth is shocked.

[John Mullen]

She reads it and reads it and rereads it.

[Narrator/Reader]

She grew absolutely ashamed of herself, of neither Darcy nor Wickham. Could she think without feeling that she had been blind, partial, prejudiced, absurd.

[John Mullen]

Blind, partial, prejudiced. It's like, you know, when you think, I've been such a fool, an idiot, a moron. And then the final word is Elizabeth's sort of word for herself.

[Ramtin Arablouei]

Absurd.

[Narrator/Reader]

How despicably I have acted. She cried. I who have prided myself on my discernment, had I been in love, I could not have been more wretchedly blind. But vanity, not love, has been my folly. Till this moment, I never knew myself.

[Rund Abdelfatah]

Till this moment, I never knew myself.

[Ramtin Arablouei]

That's a bar.

[Rund Abdelfatah]

It is a bar. It's the key line. Because Elizabeth is actively changing her mind about Wickham and Darcy at this moment. But what's much more important in some ways is how she's coming to see herself. And after this, Elizabeth spends the rest of the book working on herself.

[Ramtin Arablouei]

I will say this, it's kind of refreshing because it feels like today we don't really allow this space for people to kind of change their minds. It's, like, cool that this is such a main thread in this story.

[Rund Abdelfatah]

Oh, yeah, it's, it's, it's really, I think the. At the heart of the book, which you're right. Like, nowadays, the idea of someone changing their mind about something in a pretty dramatic way would be seen more as, like, even a defect or weakness. I think by A lot of people, 100%.

[Ramtin Arablouei]

I think I've thought that way more when I was younger, but as I've gotten older, I've realized that in fact, people changing their minds, that's actually like strength. And I think a lot of times people are impatient with that. You know, I've had even people with tell me, like, you know, why are you always changing your mind about things? I'm like, there's new information. I'm going to take that in and then think differently about it.

[Rund Abdelfatah]

I think Austin would be a fan of yours because I think she'd be like, we're meant to evolve. And like, happiness and growth hinges on our ability to give other people and ourselves the grace to do that.

[Ramtin Arablouei]

But in terms of the story, though.

[Rund Abdelfatah]

All right, so Elizabeth, you're into it, huh?

[Ramtin Arablouei]

Yo, I love mess and I love gossip. And this is like feeding all those parts of my brain cuz I want to know, like, she ever go back to Darcy and like, give him a second chance?

[Rund Abdelfatah]

All right, so it's a few months later, all right? Elizabeth is visiting an aunt and uncle. They live in a town a few hours away, and they're not far from Mr. Darcy's estate. And her aunt and uncle, they have no idea what went down between them. And they really want to take a tour of Darcy's estate. It sounds weird, but that was a normal thing people did.

[Ramtin Arablouei]

So this is like the MTV Cribs moment of the book?

[Rund Abdelfatah]

Kind of, yeah. And Elizabeth only agrees because she's told Darcy is out of town and there's no chance of running into him.

[Ramtin Arablouei]

I see where this is going.

[Narrator/Reader]

Elizabeth, as they drove along, watched for the first appearance of Pemberley woods with some perturbation. And when at length they turned in at the lodge, her spirits were in high flutter.

[Rund Abdelfatah]

It's a beautiful estate. Makes Mr. Bingley's estate look like small potatoes. And the housekeeper is their guide through it, who, it turns out, admires the hell out of Darcy.

[Narrator/Reader]

I have never had a cross word from him in my life. And I have known him ever since he was 4 years old.

[Rund Abdelfatah]

This is kind of surprising, right? I mean, he's a rich guy who could easily treat his staff like garbage.

[Ramtin Arablouei]

Which is probably normal then, but he doesn't, you know?

[Rund Abdelfatah]

And between learning that and the letter, she's just really confused. Her mind is racing. How do I get him so wrong and right?

[Narrator/Reader]

In that moment, so abrupt was his appearance that it was impossible to avoid his sight.

[Rund Abdelfatah]

Mr. Darcy unexpectedly shows up.

[Ramtin Arablouei]

Surprise, surprise.

[Narrator/Reader]

Their eyes instantly met, and the cheeks of each were overspread with the deepest blush.

[John Mullen]

The two of them blush deeply. It's the only time in all Jane Austen's fiction, a man and a woman blush in unison.

[Rund Abdelfatah]

They make small talk for a bit, the tension is palpable.

[John Mullen]

And after, there's this passage which takes place entirely in Elizabeth's head, where she's going, oh no. If only we'd left 10 minutes earlier.

[Ramtin Arablouei]

Wait, why?

[Rund Abdelfatah]

I think she's embarrassed at everything. Her misjudgment, the way she rejected Darcy so coldly, and the fact that she's touring his house. Neither of them really knows where they stand with the other person.

[John Mullen]

What, in a way Jane Austen's letting you see, is this kind of sliding doors moment, isn't it? If they'd left 10 minutes earlier, they wouldn't have met.

[Rund Abdelfatah]

But in this version of reality, Elizabeth is about to get a few more big surprises. That's coming up.

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Hi, this is Rob from Arlington, Virginia.

[Rund Abdelfatah]

You're listening to Throughline from npr.

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Part 3 Is.

[Rund Abdelfatah]

It all about the Benjamins?

[Narrator/Reader]

Good God, what is the matter? Cried he.

Elizabeth hesitated, but her knees trembled under her and looking so miserably ill that it was impossible for Darcy to leave her or to refrain from saying in a tone of gentleness and commiseration, let me call your maid. Is there nothing you could take to give you present relief? A glass of wine? Shall I get you one? No, I thank you, she replied, endeavouring to recover herself. There is nothing the matter with me. I Am quite well. I am only distressed by some dreadful news which I have just received. She burst into tears as she alluded to it, and for a few minutes could not speak another word. Darcy, in wretched suspense, could only observe her in compassionate silence. At length, she spoke again. I have just had a letter from Jane with such dreadful news. My younger sister has left all her friends, has eloped, has thrown herself into the power of. Of Mr. Wickham. They are gone off together from Brighton. You know him too well to doubt the rest. She has no money, no connections, nothing that can tempt him. She is lost forever.

[Ramtin Arablouei]

So Elizabeth's sister got with Mr. Wickham. Is that what's happening?

[Rund Abdelfatah]

Yes, yes. So, okay, we're finding all of this out at the same time. Elizabeth and Mr. Darcia, right? Elizabeth gets this letter. It tells her that Lydia, her 15 year old sister, who's staying with some relatives, came across Wickham. And you know, he's a scumbag. Right? Remember what Darcy said about him? And he took advantage of Lydia and convinced her to run away with him. We can connect the dots and assume they've had sex, which is a big no. No.

[Ramtin Arablouei]

Okay, so, no, it makes sense why Elizabeth is like freaking out here.

[Lizzie Dunford]

Yeah.

[Rund Abdelfatah]

This is like disastrous for the whole family, you know. So she tells her uncle what happened. He sets off to try to find Wickham and Lydia. Darcy also went looking for them, and he finds them first. He actually ends up quietly bribing Wickham to marry Lydia properly to avoid a scandal and kind of save the Bennet family. And then Lydia shows up back at home, a wife, happy as ever.

[Deveney Louser]

Lydia Bennet is a very lusty young woman. And what happens to Lydia? She's absolutely unchanged and seemingly unashamed. And I think that is a very brave choice on Jane Austen's part. That too was part of ordinary lives. The sister who chooses to walk on the wrong side of the polite path.

[Rund Abdelfatah]

I appreciate that, Austin. She's kind of showing us the, these different ways that different people are coping with the very real constraints of their finances and, you know, of the society's rules. Elizabeth's best friend, Charlotte Lucas, she marries Elizabeth's Weasley cousin, Mr. Collins. You remember him?

[Ramtin Arablouei]

Oh, yeah.

[Listener/Caller]

Yes.

[Ramtin Arablouei]

Yeah.

[Rund Abdelfatah]

And she does that because, you know, she's not the prettiest and he's offering her a stable, financially secure life.

[Ramtin Arablouei]

Austin is basically saying, like, let people live their lives.

[Rund Abdelfatah]

Yeah. And, and, and, and the fact that like, it's Darcy who's the one who bails out Lydia And Wickham, I think, is very important because remember who we thought he was at the beginning. Right. He's like, snooty and high minded. And I should say he doesn't tell anyone. And the only reason Elizabeth finds out is because Lydia lets it slip and then she pries it out of her.

[Ramtin Arablouei]

So he's not even doing this to say, like, look, I saved the day.

[Rund Abdelfatah]

No, he's not. And he does a similar thing with Elizabeth's other sister, Jane. He tells his buddy, Mr. Bingley, Look, I was wrong. Jane is into you. And Mr. Bingley finally proposes to Jane.

[Ramtin Arablouei]

What I wonder is, was this who Mr. Darcy was all along? Because there's tension now between that concept of, like, first impressions and also people changing.

[Rund Abdelfatah]

I mean, I think it's a great question. He, I think, has changed in significant ways.

[Ramtin Arablouei]

Yeah.

[Rund Abdelfatah]

I think him and Elizabeth have been humbled by life. So I don't think it's that she totally had him wrong at first or he totally was wrong about her family being a little trashy, but they managed to, like, find space to accommodate the things they don't like and also change in themselves the things that were sort of holding them back from being able to be, like, fully with their person.

[Ramtin Arablouei]

A lot of times in at least, like, modern romance stories, it can be kind of like, men are bad and an obstacle, whereas in this case, he's like a complicated male figure that kind of comes around. Yeah, it's interesting.

[Rund Abdelfatah]

I think often Austen is read as like a feminist book, which, like, in some ways, definitely it is, but I don't think that means that it's a man hating book. And I think that's an important difference. And ultimately she's saying both men and women are capable of changing. So, like, it's only then, when both of them have worked on themselves, that Elizabeth is finally able to admit to herself that she's in love with Darcy. And what's interesting is no one knows this. Her friends, her family, even Darcy, they don't realize this. She's kept it close to her chest. But throughout the book, Austin is dropping hints that the town gossips are speculating that Elizabeth and Darcy might be engaged already. You know, as gossips do, it takes on a life of its own. Right. I think she's commenting on that, too. Anyway, so that gossip finds its way to Lady Catherine de Bourghois, Darcy's rich and overbearing aunt.

[Ramtin Arablouei]

This is not going to be good.

[Narrator/Reader]

One morning, their attention was suddenly drawn to the window.

[Rund Abdelfatah]

Out of the blue. One day Lady Catherine hops in her carriage and travels for hours to knock on the Bennetts door and have it out with Elizabeth.

[Narrator/Reader]

She entered the room with an air more than usually ungracious, made no other reply to Elizabeth's salutation than a slight inclination of the head, and sat down without saying a word.

[Rund Abdelfatah]

She then demands a private word with Elizabeth.

[Narrator/Reader]

Ms. Bennet, you ought to know that I am not to be trifled with.

[Rund Abdelfatah]

She tells her, I hear what people are saying.

[Narrator/Reader]

I know it must be a scandalous falsehood, though I would not injure him so much as to suppose the truth of it possible.

[Rund Abdelfatah]

And she's come to settle things once and for all.

[Narrator/Reader]

If you believed it impossible to be true, said Elizabeth, coloring with astonishment and disdain, I wonder you took the trouble of coming so far.

[Rund Abdelfatah]

She believes that Darcy and her daughter should be married. In her head, they've been engaged since birth.

[Narrator/Reader]

They are descended from the same noble line. They are destined for each other. And what is to divide them? The upstart pretensions of a young woman without family connections or fortune. But it must not, shall not be. If you were sensible of your own good, you would not wish to quit the sphere in which you have been brought up in marrying your nephew. I should not consider myself as quitting that sphere. He is a gentleman. I am a gentleman's daughter. So far, we are equal.

[Deveney Louser]

It certainly doesn't mean economically equal, but I think it does mean intellectually equal. And what this book shows us is how attractive a man is. Not only because he's got land and money, but because he appreciates a woman who is smart and funny. Mr. Darcy could have anyone, but he goes after this woman who is his intellectual equal.

[Rund Abdelfatah]

When Darcy catches wind of his aunt's visit, he immediately goes to see Elizabeth. The fact that she didn't flat out deny the allegations gives him hope that maybe Elizabeth has changed her mind about him.

So, you know, in this, like, beautiful early morning scene, there's dew on the plants, the sun just peeking out over the horizon. Darcy and Elizabeth the meet while walking.

[Ramtin Arablouei]

Oh, God.

[Rund Abdelfatah]

He proposes again. And this time Elizabeth accepts.

[Ramtin Arablouei]

Okay, this is like romantic and everything, but like it. It's pretty convenient that Elizabeth and her sister just both happen to fall in love with some. Both very rich guys.

[Rund Abdelfatah]

Okay, so Austin is. She's aware of that and she actually pokes fun at it. At the end of the book, one of the very last scenes, Jane, Elizabeth's sister, and her, are sitting together talking, and Jane asks when did she know that she loved Darcy? And Elizabeth says, when I saw his house at Pemberley, it's totally a joke. Right. But the truth is, it is pretty lucky that he happens to be super rich. And her soulmate, so all their problems are solved and she's happy. And it's a fantasy on some level, but Austin is letting us imagine this world where love and happiness is born of true equality.

[Deveney Louser]

Equality. This is a word that meant so much in this period.

[Rund Abdelfatah]

It was kind of the word that defined Jane Austen's life. And her books remember, she was born in 1775, so the American Revolution and the French Revolution both happened during her lifetime.

[Deveney Louser]

Fraternity, equality, liberty. These kinds of conversations were in the air.

[Rund Abdelfatah]

And by the time Austin died in 1817, she was 41.

[Ramtin Arablouei]

She was young.

[Rund Abdelfatah]

Yeah, it was some kind of illness, but, you know, the world was going through huge technological and ideological changes. There were these big debates around what liberty and equality meant.

[Ramtin Arablouei]

This is very interesting, comrade Austin over here, but I don't feel like we get any of this context in Pride and Prejudice.

[Siyavash Madani]

Right.

[Rund Abdelfatah]

So it's not explicit, but keep in mind this. This would have been the water people were swimming in during Jane Austen's time. They would have understood that wealth was tied to exploitation, factories, colonies, slavery. Yeah, Austin would have known that too. Some of her relatives benefited from the slave trade, and a couple of her brothers were abolitionists.

[Ramtin Arablouei]

But, like, by not addressing it more directly, see, I struggle about this. Like, is. Is that kind of a cop out or is that like show, don't tell art, you know?

[Rund Abdelfatah]

Yeah. So this is something scholars still debate. And when I was researching this, I came across this essay. It's a well known essay by Edward Said, who, of course, you know, but for our listeners, I'll say he's a famous Palestinian American thinker. We have an episode about him if you want to check it out in our archives. But, so he wrote this essay. It's a chapter in his book Culture and Imperialism, where he argues that, you know, Austin, by focusing on the domestic world of these privileged elite, she's risking normalizing the system behind it, whether or not that's her intention. And I've given this a lot of thought, and the way I see it is, you know, she's writing what she knew.

[Ramtin Arablouei]

Yeah, right.

[Rund Abdelfatah]

The small p. Politics of her daily life, especially, you know, around women.

And when you look closely, like, she's exposing, she's mocking. Even, like, if you think of that Lady Catherine scene, the whole system. And again, like, I can see the critique that, like, maybe it's too subtle, but I do think it's in the adaptations, especially. Very easy for the complexity of all this to get lost.

[Ramtin Arablouei]

I tend to agree with Professor Said over here, honestly. But I also know that, like, when you write something or you make something, whether it's a song or a book or a podcast or whatever it is.

[Listener/Caller]

Right.

[Ramtin Arablouei]

At some point, it's not yours anymore.

[Rund Abdelfatah]

Right.

[Ramtin Arablouei]

Because it's had so many different kinds of lives based on who is reading it and who's kind of adapting it.

[Rund Abdelfatah]

And who's branding it. Right. Because especially in the more recent decades of its life cycle. Right. It's gone through a lot of branding. And what I think you'll find interesting, actually, is that this whole idea of Austin as chick lit is pretty new. That's how I think a lot of people think of her. And, you know, Lizzie Dunford, she told me that up until, like, the 1940s, 50s, men and women read Austin pretty equally.

[Ramtin Arablouei]

Really?

[Rund Abdelfatah]

Yeah. And then actually, okay, so this is fascinating. In the 60s, you've got the women's liberation movement happening. Women are going to university more, and. And marketers wanted to push Austen books to all these, like, university women. And so they started actually publishing Pride and Prejudice. It was a campaign with pink covers. It was like a very specific, like, this is for you women, you know, like, this is your, you know, empowerment.

[Ramtin Arablouei]

Right out of Mad Men.

[Rund Abdelfatah]

Don Draper would have been behind this campaign.

[Ramtin Arablouei]

Yeah, 100%.

[Rund Abdelfatah]

And then you get to our childhood era, right. The 90s, 2000s, you start seeing a bunch of TV and movie adaptations that are really, like, pandering to the female gaze. Right. So, like in that 1995 adaptation, which is probably the most classic one, you've got Colin Firth, you know, and there's a scene where he's coming out of the lake. This time, I guess they swim fully clothed. But anyway. But he's coming out of the lake with this, like, white shirt, drenched, sticking to him, and it's kind of see through.

[Ramtin Arablouei]

You remember this in great detail here, Rhonda.

[Rund Abdelfatah]

Listen.

[Ramtin Arablouei]

I'll just say this.

[Listener/Caller]

Listen.

[Rund Abdelfatah]

Pandering to the female gaze. Okay. That would do nothing for you, like a straight man. But, you know, I think what all of these sort of iterations point to, it comes back to what you were saying. The story has lived many lives.

[Ramtin Arablouei]

Yeah.

[Rund Abdelfatah]

And I think it's more a reflection of, you know, the period you happen to be living in. It's a book out of time. It's a weakness. And its strength. Right.

[Ramtin Arablouei]

Just makes you think, like, man, what would Jane Austin have made yeah. Of all this.

[Deveney Louser]

I don't know.

[Rund Abdelfatah]

I mean, maybe she'd just be floored that an AI Darcy exists.

[Ramtin Arablouei]

Wait, there's an an AI Darcy?

[Rund Abdelfatah]

Yeah, man. Look it up.

[Ramtin Arablouei]

I'm not looking to look it up. I'm not.

Okay, so I have to say, this entire conversation, it's been surprising. It's much more layered than I expected it to be. To be honest. I just thought it was silly, fun, romance stuff.

[Rund Abdelfatah]

Yeah, I think a lot of people get that impression right from again, especially the adaptations, which, because it does sound like I've convinced you you're gonna have to watch one.

[Ramtin Arablouei]

You know that I hate letting you win anything, right? Like any.

[John Mullen]

Anything.

[Rund Abdelfatah]

And yet I win so often that I would think that you would have gotten used to it by now.

[Deveney Louser]

But.

[Siyavash Madani]

But listen.

[Ramtin Arablouei]

No, you convinced me. I have to admit it. And I'm going, you know, I'm a gentleman and I will honor the terms of this bet. So I think after all this, I still am going to go with the Bollywood version.

[Rund Abdelfatah]

Good choice. I haven't watched it in a while, so I'm excited to rewatch.

[Ramtin Arablouei]

I also want to get Rumi to watch with me.

[Rund Abdelfatah]

What 10 year old boy wouldn't love this? Wait, maybe we can get Rumi to be on the Throughline episode with us.

[Ramtin Arablouei]

He would love it.

[Rund Abdelfatah]

Oh, I'm so excited. All right, well, I guess this is TBD until you and Rumi and I rewatch and then I'll meet you on Throughline plus, right for our debrief. And we hope to see all you listening there too.

[Ramtin Arablouei]

Y' all not gonna want to miss that. I think that'll be fun.

[Rund Abdelfatah]

And that's it for this week's show. I'm Rund Abdelfatah.

[Ramtin Arablouei]

I'm Ramtin Arablouei and you've been listening to Throughline from npr.

[Rund Abdelfatah]

This episode was produced by me and.

[Ramtin Arablouei]

Me and Lawrence Wu, Julie Kane, Anya.

[Deveney Louser]

Steinberg, Casey Miner, Christina Kim, Devin Kadayama, Irene Noguchi.

[Rund Abdelfatah]

The voice of Jane Austen was played by Holly Hales.

[Ramtin Arablouei]

Fact checking for this episode was done by Kevin Voelkel.

[Rund Abdelfatah]

This episode was mixed by Jimmy Keighley. Music for this episode was composed by Ramtin and his band Drop Electric, which.

[Deveney Louser]

Includes Naveed Marvi, Sho Fujiwara, Anya Mizani.

[Rund Abdelfatah]

Thank you to Johannes Durgi, Beth Donovan and Tommy Evans.

[Ramtin Arablouei]

And finally, if you have an idea or like something you heard on the show, please write us@doolittle throughlinepr.org or hit us up on Twitter throughline NPR.

[Rund Abdelfatah]

Thanks for listening.

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