Throughline (NPR): “Prosecuting Genocide”

October 30, 2025
Hosts: Rund Abdelfattah & Ramtin Arablouei
Key Guests: Dr. Eva Fukasich (Assistant Professor, Utrecht University), Roy Gutman (Pulitzer Prize-winning journalist), Dr. Sima Jelani (physician and humanitarian)

Overview

This Throughline episode unpacks the complex, painful evolution of prosecuting genocide—from the historic Nuremberg Trials and Raphael Lemkin’s invention of the term “genocide,” through the legal saga around Bosnia and Srebrenica, and up to present-day accusations in conflicts like Gaza. Using gripping historical storytelling, survivor accounts, and expert analysis, hosts Rund Abdelfattah and Ramtin Arablouei trace how genocide moved from being an unthinkable, unnamed crime to a term fraught with both enormous moral and legal gravity.

Major Themes & Structure

1. Origins of Genocide as a Legal Concept
2. Bosnian War & Srebrenica Massacre: The Evidence and Aftermath
3. Legal Proceedings, Challenges, and the Weight of "Genocide"
4. Modern Repercussions and Ongoing Global Struggles with Justice

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Naming the Crime: Lemkin & Nuremberg (01:27–07:47)

• Historical Backdrop: The post-WWII Nuremberg Trials, prosecuting Nazi leaders for unprecedented crimes.
• Lemkin’s Campaign: Polish-Jewish lawyer Raphael Lemkin, after losing nearly his entire family in the Holocaust, pushed to make “genocide” a legal concept.
  • Quote (Raphael Lemkin, 03:05): “It is for this reason that I took the liberty of inventing the word genocide.”
  • Lemkin explains: “The term is from the Greek word genos, meaning tribe or race, and the Latin cida, meaning killing... it refers to a coordinated plan aimed at destruction of the essential foundations of the life of national groups, so that these groups wither and die like plants that have suffered a blight.” (03:15)
• Initial Setback: Despite Lemkin’s efforts, the Nuremberg verdicts convicted Nazis of other crimes—none for “genocide” (05:46).
  • Quote (05:56): “The Allies decided a case in Nuremberg against a past Hitler, but refused to envisage future Hitlers.” —Raphael Lemkin
• UN Adoption: In 1948, the UN unanimously adopted the Genocide Convention, finally codifying genocide as a specific international crime (06:22).

2. Case Study: Bosnia—From Ethnic Cleansing to Genocide (11:48–41:48)

a. Yugoslavia Collapses & the Rise of Nationalism

• “Coming apart at the seams is a phrase being used to describe the current situation in Yugoslavia.” —Dr. Eva Fukasich (11:53)
• Description of Yugoslavia’s break-up along ethnic lines, contextualizing deepening divides and violence.

b. Reporting from the Ground: Roy Gutman in Bosnia

• Eyewitness Testimony: Award-winning journalist Roy Gutman recounts collecting evidence of mass deportations and state-organized “ethnic cleansing.”
  • Quote (Roy Gutman, 18:32): “What was ethnic cleansing? Well, it was mass deportations… I learned from that experience that the state was the major actor. This is an organized thing.”
• The Camps: Gutman visits detention centers, observes degrading treatment, and uncovers reliable witness reports of executions.
  • Quote (Roy Gutman, 22:20): “They conveyed a whole degradation, you know, humiliation with the hands of thugs.”
• Expanding Recognition: Initially, the term “genocide” was avoided; over time, journalists and experts started using it. Gutman: “I think it added up to genocide. It’s the pieces of the puzzle that I’ve assembled here... I’m willing to state that I’m the witness.” (25:56)

c. Srebrenica: Anatomy of a Massacre (30:01–41:48)

• The “Safe Zone”: Srebrenica, declared a UN safe zone, becomes the focal point of the genocide.
  • Sima Jelani (30:52): “Bosnian Muslims fled into by the thousands.”
  • Overcrowding and lack of essentials plague the enclave.
• UN Powerlessness: Dutch peacekeepers, under-resourced and outnumbered, are unable to intervene as Bosnian Serb forces overrun Srebrenica (33:02–34:13).
  • Quote (Eva Fukasich, 34:02): “The UN has not neither the capacity nor the equipment nor the food or the water or the mandate to protect the civilians in any sort of armed way.”
• The Mass Killings: Men and boys attempt escape; thousands are executed—over 8,000 killed, mass graves proliferate.
  • Quote (Sima Jelani, 37:56): “Over 8,000 men and boys were summarily executed, shot, killed.”
• Immediate Aftermath: The world learns almost in real time through survivor testimony.
  • Quote (38:51, survivor): “I lost my brother, husband, 30 from my close family alone... We just want to find out where the bones, the remains of our father's brother's sons are to find out the truth.”

3. Prosecuting Genocide: The Legal Odyssey (43:15–50:59)

• UN War Crimes Tribunal: After Srebrenica, the Tribunal indicts Serb leaders (Radovan Karadžić, Ratko Mladić) for genocide.
  • Quote, Tribunal judge (44:25): “These are truly scenes from hell written on the darkest pages of human history.”
  • Extensive documentation—over 5,000 witnesses (45:02).
  • Eva Fukasich (45:17): “I would say this is probably the most investigated international crime in history.”
• The First Verdict: Gen. Radislav Krstić found guilty of genocide in 2001; Srebrenica officially recognized as genocide (46:02).
  • Ramtin (46:41): “July 1995. General Krstić. Individually you agreed to evil.”
• State Responsibility?
  • ICJ rules in 2007: Serbia as a state not directly guilty of genocide, but guilty of failing to prevent it (47:43).
  • Quote (Eva Fukasich, 47:43): “To this day, we have no straightforward finding of the ICJ that any state is guilty of committing genocide.”

4. Aftermath, Memory, & Legacy (48:26–53:36)

• Personal Effects, Lasting Pain: Identification of victims through forensics and DNA.
  • Quote (Sima Jelani, 48:26): “I recall one woman recognized a lighter, and it was her lover's… and it's all down to what? A lighter that's now blood soaked.”
• Survivor Grief and Anger: Many still feel abandoned or failed by the international community.
  • Quote (Survivor, 49:21): “They always used to call me Mommy, and on one occasion, I actually heard somebody calling me mummy, and I went to the window, but there was nobody.”
  • Quote (Eva Fukasich & Sima Jelani, 49:49): “Shame on them.”
• Limits of Prosecution: Only Srebrenica was legally recognized as genocide during the war in Bosnia. Other communities feel “cheated” (50:59).
  • Quote (Eva Fukasich): “There are whole communities in Bosnia Herzegovina and elsewhere around the world that feel cheated because what their community went through wasn't labeled, confirmed as a case of genocide.”

5. Global Echoes: Genocide's Modern Use (51:12–53:36)

• Contemporary Cases: Darfur, Ukraine, and Gaza are now sites of ongoing or recent legal and moral battles over calling violence "genocide”.
  • In September 2025, a UN commission cited Bosnia in its conclusion that Israel is committing genocide in Gaza, a finding Israel rejected (51:12).
  • Quote (Eva Fukasich, 51:43): “The starvation, the destruction of civilian property, the inability of people to leave... if this is not genocide, then I don't know what the hell genocide looks like.”
  • Legal proceedings may stretch for years; international law is only as strong as states’ will to enforce it (52:17).

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Lemkin (03:05): “I took the liberty of inventing the word genocide.”
• Roy Gutman (18:32): “This is an organized thing... ethnic cleansing is really a vast understatement.”
• Sima Jelani (37:56): “Over 8,000 men and boys were summarily executed, shot, killed.” (on Srebrenica)
• Tribunal Judge (44:25): “These are truly scenes from hell written on the darkest pages of human history.”
• Eva Fukasich (47:43): “To this day, we have no straightforward finding of the ICJ that any state is guilty of committing genocide.”
• Sima Jelani (48:26): “He put his fingers on her lips... a lighter that's now blood soaked. That's all she has.”
• Eva Fukasich (51:43): “If this is not genocide, then I don't know what the hell genocide looks like.”
• Eva Fukasich (52:17): “International law depends on states... it is just as strong or just as weak as the states that support him.”

Timeline of Important Segments

• 01:27–07:47 – Lemkin’s campaign & the coining of “genocide,” UN convention
• 11:48–26:31 – Eyewitness reporting from Bosnia; ethnic cleansing exposed
• 30:01–41:48 – Srebrenica: Context, siege, and mass murder
• 43:15–47:43 – War crimes tribunal, first conviction for genocide
• 48:26–50:59 – Aftermath, identification, survivor trauma
• 51:12–53:36 – Genocide’s modern consequences; Gaza and ongoing struggles

Analysis & Reflections

• The episode powerfully illustrates the birth, limitations, and weight of the word “genocide”—a legal term with immense emotional resonance for communities affected by mass violence.
• It details the painstaking evidence required for a legal definition, and the human cost when legal or political action lags behind events.
• The stories of Bosnia resonate in contemporary debates, as the same legal standards and international inertia are tested by events in places like Gaza.
• The show underscores both the progress and the failures of the international community in living up to the vow “never again.”

Closing

“If the Genocide Convention, the Geneva Conventions, these basic protections... collapse, then we have nothing.”—Eva Fukasich (52:17)

This Throughline episode offers a sobering look at the history and present of prosecuting genocide, illuminating both the victories and the heartbreaks in efforts to hold perpetrators accountable—and the ongoing challenge of ensuring “never again” means something real.