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- [00:00]
Regina
This message comes from Sony Pictures Classics presenting the Penguin Lessons, a new comedy starring Steve Coogan as a teacher whose life is upended after he rescues a penguin from an oil slicked beach. Starts March 28th. Only in theaters. This message comes from stamps.comstamps.com simplifies your postage needs and adds valuable time back into your workday so you have more flexibility to focus on what only you can do. Go to stamps.com and sign up with code NPR for a special offer.
- [00:44]
Ramtin Arablouei
It's the late afternoon on a Monday. I'm four years old, sitting crisscross applesauce on the floor of my parents apartment. The carpet is shaggy, ugly and brown. I have a cherubic face and bull haircut, you know, like the one Jim Carrey has in the film Dumb and Dumber. In front of me is a TV with an antenna and dial. It's the late 1980s and on the screen is my daily companion, Sesame Street. Today is a very special day because.
- [01:17]
Michael Davis
Today'S the day when my little sister.
- [01:21]
Ramtin Arablouei
Alice meets my best friend.
- [01:24]
Dr. Loretta Long
Bur.
- [01:29]
Ramtin Arablouei
My family had only recently moved to the US from Iran and I was lonely. I couldn't speak English. I couldn't make sense of where we were or what had brought us here. In that moment where I needed a lifeline, Sesame street with its weird cast of characters was there. The giant animals, monsters, Muppets, the kind adults and children everywhere on the street.
- [01:56]
Dr. Loretta Long
It's a puppy. Oh, Ernie. You're right, Bert. Oh, look at him. Isn't he cute?
- [02:01]
Ramtin Arablouei
I learned English watching Sesame Street. I learned how to deal with loss, anger, sadness, loneliness. When my parents, who were dealing with their own trauma and working constantly to make rent, weren't there. I learned from Big Bird, Cookie Monster, Susan and Gordon. It was a window into a whole new world. A safe, accepting, beautiful American world.
- [02:31]
Dr. Loretta Long
I wake up in my house. It's called, the name's Kermit.
- [02:39]
Michael Davis
Whatever you say froggy, it is. Just open my mouth and.
- [02:51]
Dr. Loretta Long
That'S amazing.
- [02:53]
Ramtin Arablouei
But I wasn't alone. In millions of other homes, millions of other young children like me were sitting in front of their TVs watching the same show I was. And some of those children grew up to work right here on Throughline.
- [03:11]
Joan Ganz Cooney
I watched Sesame street in the early.
- [03:14]
Dr. Loretta Long
90S when I was a kid, 1970s. So right, you know, right when Sesame street started.
- [03:20]
Ramtin Arablouei
I always joke that it was created just for me because it was made about a year after I was born.
- [03:26]
Joan Ganz Cooney
My sister and I actually weren't allowed.
- [03:27]
Dr. Loretta Long
To watch a lot of tv. But Sesame street was one of the very few shows that we were allowed to watch.
- [03:34]
Joan Ganz Cooney
I would watch from the couch of my family's apartment in the Bronx.
- [03:38]
Dr. Loretta Long
I was in Wichita, Kansas, on the floor in our living room, way too.
- [03:43]
Ramtin Arablouei
Close to the tv.
- [03:44]
Kira Hunting
And actually my earliest memory of Sesame street is actually my earliest memory.
- [03:49]
Joan Ganz Cooney
I think it made me feel like I could be on the show, like I could be on Sesame Street.
- [03:55]
Dr. Loretta Long
Only child, being raised by a single dad. So I spent a lot of time in front of the tv.
- [04:01]
Joan Ganz Cooney
I think a big part of this was because there were kids on the show who looked like me.
- [04:08]
Dr. Loretta Long
I came to show you the moon, Maria. My favorite character was Big Bird. Look up in the sky. My favorite favorite character was Roosevelt Franklin. I have a letter. It is here with me. I'm in my 50s, and even now I find myself walking around and randomly hearing Roosevelt Franklin Elementary School.
- [04:34]
Joan Ganz Cooney
One of these things is not like the other.
- [04:36]
Dr. Loretta Long
I saw the beautiful moon just kind.
- [04:39]
Kira Hunting
Of felt like friends. It just felt like a place I.
- [04:41]
Dr. Loretta Long
Wanted to spend, spend time.
- [04:43]
Joan Ganz Cooney
I learned everything on Sesame Street. Things that taught you how to, you know, navigate the world. And I feel like, in a way, I'm still learning from Sesame Street.
- [04:52]
Dr. Loretta Long
I don't know. I think it really, really has played a major role in my. My worldview. So, yeah, Sesame.
- [05:18]
Ramtin Arablouei
For many of us, Sesame street was our first taste of education. It taught us how to read and count and be nice people in this society. But the road to creating the show and sustaining it, decade after decade, has come with its own struggle. A struggle that can tell us so much about the role of education in socializing children and developing cultural norms and shared values.
- [05:43]
Joan Ganz Cooney
Arguments over what those are and how they're communicated tend to flare up during moments of cultural anxiety like the one we're in now.
- [05:51]
Ramtin Arablouei
This is a story about how a TV show made to represent a block in Harlem, New York, has sustained its mark in educating children around the world. And it's a story about the questions we're still asking about who the people are in our neighborhood.
- [06:08]
Joan Ganz Cooney
In this episode of Throughline from npr, the story of Sesame Street.
- [06:24]
Dr. Loretta Long
Roosevelt Franklin Elementary School.
- [06:33]
Regina
This message comes from Charles Schwab. When it comes to managing your wealth, Schwab gives you more choices like full service, wealth management, and advice when you need it. You can also invest on your own and trade on thinkorswim. Visit schwab.com to learn more. This message comes from BetterHelp. Therapy can be expensive, but at BetterHelp, they believe therapy should feel accessible, not like a luxury, which is why they offer quality care at a price that makes sense and can help you with anything from anxiety to everyday stress. Your mental health is worth it, and now it's within reach. Visit betterhelp.com NPR to get 10% off your first month. That's betterhelp.com NPR this message comes from Thuma. Create your oasis with Thuma, a modern design company that specializes in furniture and home goods by stripping away everything but the essential. Thuma makes elevated beds with premium materials and intentional details with clean lines, subtle curves and minimalist style. The Thuma Bed collection is available in four signature finishes to match any design aesthetic. To get $100 towards your first bed purchase, go to Thuma co NPR.
- [07:47]
Dr. Loretta Long
Part 1 A Symphony Orchestra of BRAIN power.
- [07:57]
Ramtin Arablouei
Today, it may be easy to think of Sesame street as a show that was created by some massive government program carefully concocted in some laboratory to teach kids how to read and write. But the reality is Sesame street began at a dinner party at the Manhattan apartment of a local TV producer named Joan Ganz Cooney.
- [08:18]
Michael Davis
She and her husband hosted a, you know, a classic 1960s dinner party, and she prepared beef bourguignon from Julia Child's cookbook for some of her colleagues and friends.
- [08:35]
Ramtin Arablouei
I have never actually had beef bourgoguignon, but I figured I would tell you that just as an excuse for me to say the word. But anyway, this group of people at this party were basically just Joan Ganz Cooney's friends and colleagues, except there was.
- [08:51]
Michael Davis
One hotshot there, fellow named Lloyd Morissette. Lloyd Morissette, who worked in the philanthropic world, working on projects devoted to children.
- [09:03]
Ramtin Arablouei
By the way, this is Michael Davis.
- [09:06]
Michael Davis
Author of Street Gang, the Complete History of Sesame Street.
- [09:10]
Ramtin Arablouei
Okay, so back at the dinner, all the guests gobbled down the beef bourgoguignon, and then the conversation turned to kids and education, something Joan had been thinking about in a television special she'd made.
- [09:23]
Michael Davis
That investigated a program in Harlem where they were enriching the lives of preschool children with educational materials and instruction and essentially giving young kids in Harlem who were younger than school age the opportunities and influences that kids who in more privileged homes were getting books and records and being read to and those kinds of things.
- [09:51]
Ramtin Arablouei
And that program ends up becoming the model for what we now know as the National Head Start program, a federally funded education program designed to prepare children for kindergarten.
- [10:02]
Michael Davis
And there came a moment in the after dinner conversation when somebody said, you know, I wonder if television could provide.
- [10:10]
Ramtin Arablouei
The same thing, because by the 1960s, basically everyone had a TV and this electric picture box was like a direct pipeline into living rooms all across the country. Joan saw this as an opportunity.
- [10:25]
Michael Davis
Could television teachers. And Joan at that very moment said, I don't know that it can, but I'd sure like to be the person who would try.
- [10:38]
Ramtin Arablouei
And then boom.
- [10:42]
Michael Davis
Just like that. At that moment, in her head, an idea came into clear focus that some of the things that she saw in Harlem could very well be translated to the screen. Let's see if we could do that.
- [11:03]
Ramtin Arablouei
Lloyd Morissette, a vice president at the Carnegie foundation, decided to give her a grant to conduct research on whether a TV show to educate kids was even possible. At the time, this idea was sort of novel because most children's programming on television was not educational at all.
- [11:23]
Dr. Loretta Long
And a home dog. Howdy. Do you. This is Detective Huckleberry Hound, the Flintstones, brought to you by Miles Products, division of Miles Laboratories, makers of Wilma.
- [11:36]
Michael Davis
Where's the Alka Seltzer?
- [11:37]
Dr. Loretta Long
Where it always is, next to the one a day. Multiple vitamins.
- [11:45]
Ramtin Arablouei
What was the hole that they were trying to fill?
- [11:48]
Michael Davis
Well, the hole was a gaping, wide gap. I mean, the world of children's television, meet me circa 1968, was sort of a cavalcade of mayhem cartoons that really weren't all that worthy. Afternoon shows in local markets that were, you know, just put on the air to sell products. And it was a minefield of junk.
- [12:29]
Dr. Loretta Long
At the time, the only show on the air for preschoolers that was quality was Captain Kangaroo. Then one day, some hunters came hunting along, and it wasn't educational. It was a nice show for kids.
- [12:43]
Joan Ganz Cooney
This is Joan Ganz Cooney from a television interview on a show called the Open mind back in 2009, talking about that question from the dinner party, could TV teach?
- [12:54]
Dr. Loretta Long
So I did a report saying, yes. The answer is yes, and here's how it might proceed.
- [13:01]
Joan Ganz Cooney
That report was called the Potential Uses of Television for Preschool Education.
- [13:07]
Michael Davis
And she felt that, famously, that, you know, kids could sing beer commercials, beer jingles. If television had the power to teach that to children, maybe you could teach something a little more pro social, like, you know, some basic rudimentary concepts of learning.
- [13:24]
Joan Ganz Cooney
It went all the way back to what she saw in Harlem, making that TV special about the project that was part of the foundation for Head Start.
- [13:31]
Michael Davis
Joan's fundamental idea was, if we're going to try to see if television can teach, let's do it in a bona fide way. Let's get educators to help us craft a curriculum for the show that can be measured. We Want to be able to prove to our funders that it worked. Now, that was a real part of the brilliance behind Sesame Street. To ground it in bonafide scientific educational research.
- [14:10]
Joan Ganz Cooney
Joan and Lloyd had been able to raise about $1 million from foundations to support their idea of a children's TV show. But they had to come up with a budget of $8 million to actually do it. In today's money, that's about $62 million. So who else was going to invest that much money into an idea that probably offered no kind of financial return?
- [14:33]
Michael Davis
I propose that we begin a program.
- [14:35]
Dr. Loretta Long
In education to ensure every American child the fullest development of his mind and skills. This was the era of Lyndon Johnson and the Great Society. But Washington had various pilot projects around the country that they were researching to see if early intervention could make a difference. And the research showed that it did make a difference.
- [15:03]
Joan Ganz Cooney
The administration of Lyndon Johnson was laser focused on eliminating poverty and reducing inequality. To that end, they made education, especially for black children, a priority. Joan and Lloyd were completely on the same page with the administration, the civil rights movement.
- [15:22]
Michael Davis
It gave energy to this initiative. And these were, you know, New Yorkers, liberals. They were convinced that the government could and should be in the business of helping preschool children with media.
- [15:48]
Joan Ganz Cooney
After months and months of pitching, it worked. In 1968, Sesame street got almost $4 million from the Office of Education, facilitated by the LBJ administration. That made up about half the budget to kickstart the show. The rest came from the Corporation for Public Broadcasting, Carnegie and Ford foundations, along with other funders.
- [16:12]
Michael Davis
I think they. They had a holy crap moment. It was like, okay, you know, we. Joan spent a year, you know, doing research and talking to people. Educators and psychologists and doctors, pediatricians, you know, and then, you know, all of a sudden it became very real. And they realized that we've got it. We've got to put a show on the air. And within a year, you're talking about something that had never been done before. They summoned the brightest people they could find from disparate worlds. The world of education, psychology, psychiatry, medicine, artists, musicians. And they had a series of seminars and they brainstormed together. No one had ever created this symphony orchestra of brain power.
- [17:06]
Dr. Loretta Long
I think it's fair to say that by the time our program goes on the air, it will be the most thoroughly researched show in the history of the medium.
- [17:15]
Joan Ganz Cooney
The show was developed under a nonprofit called the Children's Television Workshop. All they needed was an audience, and Joan had to sell it.
- [17:24]
Dr. Loretta Long
The short, simple 60 second form used by TV advertisers in commercials to sell products is used here to teach numbers and letters.
- [17:34]
Joan Ganz Cooney
This is from a promo that was filmed before Sesame Street's debut.
- [17:38]
Dr. Loretta Long
You know what this is, Kermit? A really bad triangle.
- [17:42]
Michael Davis
Oh, come on, Kerman.
- [17:43]
Dr. Loretta Long
It's a circle. Okay, so it's a circle. So. Well, you know that, but a lot of little kids don't.
- [17:52]
Ramtin Arablouei
It's hard to overstate how revolutionary this was. It was a show whose goal was to reach black audiences at a time when black families were struggling for equality in education. It was a show inspired by Harlem, which many people thought wouldn't resonate with the national audience. No one knew if anyone would watch, so the creators were literally hitting the streets to spread the word.
- [18:18]
Michael Davis
A woman named Evelyn Davis, African American woman who was a community activist in New York City, very, very well connected, knew everybody. It was her job to raise awareness that this show was coming. And she was able to convince Con Edison, you know, the big utility in New York City, to donate a bus. And on that bus, they had an early vcr, a tape machine and a monitor. And they invited people onto the bus to have a look at, you know, basically a reel of what Sesame street was going to look like. She went from church to church, preschool to preschool, community house to community house, just selling this idea and doing her best to get excitement generated about its promise. That work was so important because she had credibility in the black community. High credibility.
- [19:41]
Joan Ganz Cooney
It was 1969, three years after the dinner party at Joan's apartment and Sesame Street's first episode would air on November 10th. Millions of dollars had been invested, yet no one knew for sure if the show would work. Nothing like it had ever existed before.
- [20:00]
Ramtin Arablouei
When we come back, Sesame street launches and legends are born.
- [20:14]
Regina
Hi, this is regina from Washington, D.C. and you are listening to the best sound designed podcast there is.
- [20:22]
Dr. Loretta Long
Not to mention the best NPR podcast throughline. Thanks for all your work, guys.
- [20:29]
Regina
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- [20:58]
Steven Barrera
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- [21:20]
Regina
This message comes from Progressive Insurance. Do you ever think about switching insurance companies to see if you could save some cash? Progressive makes it easy to see if you could save when you bundle your home and auto policies. Try it@progressive.com, progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Potential savings will vary. Not available in all states.
- [21:41]
Dr. Loretta Long
Part 2 How the people Spoke I.
- [21:46]
Michael Davis
Was a senior in high school when Sesame debuted, and I already was determined to watch it.
- [21:57]
Joan Ganz Cooney
That first episode opens with weird animated creatures. One looks kind of like a cross between a unicorn and an alligator. The other, an armless, grinning blue guy wearing a bowler hat. It has a very 60s vibe.
- [22:12]
Michael Davis
Number one, I had seen a special on NBC that aired a couple of days before that hailed the show. But number two, I love the Muppets.
- [22:21]
Joan Ganz Cooney
I call my bathtub Rosie.
- [22:23]
Michael Davis
Here I was, you know, like 17, watching a show meant for kids age 4.
- [22:28]
Dr. Loretta Long
Why do you call your bathtub Rosie? Because every time I take a bath, I leave a ring around Rosie.
- [22:35]
Michael Davis
And I thought, man, this is really great.
- [22:43]
Dr. Loretta Long
Sally, you've never seen a street like Sesame Street. Everything happens here. You're gonna love it.
- [22:48]
Joan Ganz Cooney
In the first scene of the very first episode, you meet the store clerk, Mr. Hooper, Bob, the music teacher. And in the background, two kids, black and white, play with a ball. And then Gordon, the guy who owns the Sesame street brownstone, calls into the window of his house.
- [23:04]
Dr. Loretta Long
Susan's my wife. You love her. Susan, come here.
- [23:06]
Ramtin Arablouei
Why don't you say hello to Sally?
- [23:08]
Dr. Loretta Long
Hi, Sally. What are you doing home from? Susan is not a name that you name black children. Okay. I inherited Susan. However, Susan was from the Midwest. She grew up on a farm. She had a father and a mother and a brother. And I use my own story.
- [23:27]
Ramtin Arablouei
Susan is you.
- [23:29]
Dr. Loretta Long
Yeah, yeah, it's me.
- [23:32]
Joan Ganz Cooney
This is Dr. Loretta Long, who played Susan starting from that very first episode in 1969.
- [23:40]
Dr. Loretta Long
I was born in Kansas, but I was raised in rural Michigan, 20 miles from Kalamazoo. Zoo. Zoo.
- [23:49]
Joan Ganz Cooney
Dr. Long has been an entertainer since she was a kid. She used to sing show tunes while helping her family sell produce at the roadside stand.
- [23:58]
Dr. Loretta Long
When I graduated from Western Michigan University in Kalamazoo, I immediately moved to Detroit. My dream was really to work for Motown. I wanted to be part of the Motown sound. But all the slots were taken. The Supremes didn't need nobody. Martha had all the Vandellas, so I had to branch out.
- [24:33]
Joan Ganz Cooney
Dr. Long went to New York City in 1960. She wanted to make it big, be a star. But she needed a day job that would give her the flexibility to go on auditions. And so with a degree in education, she landed substitute teaching gigs in Harlem and the Bronx.
- [24:50]
Dr. Loretta Long
I knew if I got the right phone call, I was history.
- [24:54]
Joan Ganz Cooney
When she finally got that call, it was 1969 and she'd been co hosting a show on New York Public television that was all about black music, black culture and black identity. It was a show called Soul.
- [25:07]
Dr. Loretta Long
It's Soul. And this is your announcer, Jerry V. No train. We didn't have the money for a train. Just soul. The young man who is a set director, every time the camera went off, you heard zzz he was building the mock up for Sesame Street. He said, oh, I'm doing this for this children's show. And you're a teacher. Why don't you. And I'm sorry, I'm an actor who happens to be teaching. I am not a teacher. He said, right now you're a teacher who can sing. Okay. So he sent me to the audition. It was just a regular room with a bunch of judgmental people sitting at a long table with their arms folded looking at you. But I was used to that. I mean, I had auditioned for Broadway. They were looking for an acoustic folk guitars, Joan Baez looking. And I look like I looked like Angela Davis. I had a big fro, short skirts and show tunes. They looked me up and down and said, where's your guitar? I said, excuse me, my what? They said, so very New York. So sing already. One, two, you know what to do. Hey, I'm a little teapot Short and styled Here is my handle. And I said, hold it, hold it. See, I knew we were singing to children. And I looked right in the camera and I said, now you all know this song. Now I'm gonna start it again and you stand up and sing it with me. Okay, One, two, you know what to do. Hey, Ed Palmer, who was head of research, said the kids all stood up and sang. And I have a career because of some kids in Harlem that stood up and sang with me. Anybody see any more rectangles right around in this neighborhood? Yeah, some pictures. Oh, the pictures. Those are good rectangles. Look at this.
- [27:21]
Joan Ganz Cooney
The thing about Dr. Loretta Long is that she really did embody what Sesame street has been doing since the very beginning, mixing education and entertainment.
- [27:31]
Dr. Loretta Long
One of these things is not like the others. One of these things doesn't belong.
- [27:38]
Joan Ganz Cooney
In fact, during the first few years the show ran, Dr. Long was earning her PhD in urban education from the University of Massachusetts Amherst.
- [27:47]
Dr. Loretta Long
I have a riddle for you. What's closer to you than the air? And what stretches like a rubber band and comes in a lot of pretty colors like white, all shades of brown? The fact that we could put entertainment and educational concepts together and make it more palatable for children. It fit me like a glove. Well, did you guess it was skin? I was hired for one week. We shot a pilot from a Monday through through Friday to show how we would teach and utilize every day to reinforce the lesson we were teaching. I was only hired for a week, so that wasn't any big celebration.
- [28:38]
Ramtin Arablouei
And that brings us back to that first episode in November 1969.
- [28:44]
Dr. Loretta Long
E, E C Me Milk. Did you ever wonder where it came from?
- [28:52]
Ramtin Arablouei
That first episode is trippy.
- [28:57]
Dr. Loretta Long
Hello, Big Bird.
- [28:59]
Ramtin Arablouei
Big Bird is this big, dopey, disheveled looking creature with sort of creepy eyes. A rough sketch of what we see today.
- [29:06]
Michael Davis
You're letting all the fresh air and sunlight in.
- [29:09]
Ramtin Arablouei
Boy, I hate that Oscar the Grouch is orange.
- [29:13]
Michael Davis
Go away. Close my can, Lindy.
- [29:16]
Ramtin Arablouei
And Sesame street was born at a time when the government was taking a bigger role in people's lives. Medicaid and Medicare had been created. The Civil Rights act was passed, and the government was getting involved with what was on tv. Sesame street first aired on the National Educational Television Network, which would become the Public Broadcasting System pbs, the next year. Which is why even today, Sesame street can feel so synonymous with PBS.
- [29:43]
Michael Davis
I was there, man. In 1969, nobody knew what the hell PBS was. Believe me, in a lot of markets, you couldn't even find it. It was on a UHF station, and you were lucky if you could get rid of the fuzz and get a decent picture.
- [30:03]
Ramtin Arablouei
But the picture was pretty clear. In its second week, Sesame street was reaching almost 2 million homes. And the reviewers loved the show.
- [30:13]
Michael Davis
I think the majority of people hailed it and loved it. And, you know, it was an immediate success. It was a blockbuster success. It was everywhere. But there were opponents from the very start. Notably, Mississippi Public Television refused to air the show. Why? Because black and white children were portrayed as being friends on the show and, you know, did things together, and it was as normal as normal could be. That was not going to fly in Mississippi until, aha. The parents said, wait a minute. We want this show. We think our children should be able to see this show. And they resolved that Conflict in the best of all ways the people spoke.
- [31:10]
Ramtin Arablouei
The ban lasted less than a month, but the Mississippi government wasn't the show's only critic. Some educators themselves were questioning whether a TV show could really do a good job teaching kids.
- [31:24]
Michael Davis
They thought that the pace was too frenetic. They thought it was going to create a generation of kids with attention deficit disorder. There were people who were really angry with it, suspicious of it, didn't like it one little bit.
- [31:40]
Dr. Loretta Long
I had a guy say, well, am I supposed to be entertaining my kids in the class? And I said, why not?
- [31:49]
Joan Ganz Cooney
But Sesame street was changing the game.
- [31:53]
Michael Davis
Kindergarten teachers had to rip up their curriculum. They had to start over, because no longer were kids showing up not understanding the basics. They showed up ready to learn and to learn more.
- [32:07]
Joan Ganz Cooney
A 2015 study showed that a whole generation of kids in the 70s were coming to school more prepared. By 1979, around 9 million kids under the age of six were watching Sesame street every day. And it wasn't just reaching, quote, unquote, disadvantaged children.
- [32:25]
Michael Davis
Within weeks of its premiere, it was clear that all boats were going to rise as a result of this show. A lot of people question the idea of the government getting involved in television. And the whole idea of a public television network seemed to them to be like just more liberal brainwashing. But, but, but, but, but, but. Moms, grandmoms, dads, older siblings, I mean, once they started watching this show when it debuted in November of 69, immediately defended it, immediately took to it, immediately saw that it was like nothing else on television. And, you know, within a year, Big Bird was on the COVID of Time magazine.
- [33:32]
Dr. Loretta Long
Seven pumpkins.
- [33:35]
Michael Davis
The tone of Sesame street and the tempo of it was extraordinary too. It was very fast paced. 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7. There were quick cuts. Roy, you're really weird. It was animation. There were songs.
- [34:00]
Ramtin Arablouei
Two whipped cream pies on the wall.
- [34:03]
Michael Davis
There were parodies. And now time for TV's favorite game show, Beat the Time. And here's TV's favorite moderator, Guy Smiley.
- [34:17]
Joan Ganz Cooney
And the show wasn't just about numbers and letters.
- [34:21]
Dr. Loretta Long
The diversity was the soft skill that laid right in there with the ABCs and the 1, 2, 3s and Kermit singing. It's not that easy being green. It's not that easy being green Having to spend each day the color of the leaves.
- [34:43]
Joan Ganz Cooney
And all the while, educators and researchers, directors and writers work together trying to figure out how to do all this right.
- [34:52]
Dr. Loretta Long
Hi, Mr. Looper. Whatcha doing? Hooper, Hooper, Hooper.
- [34:55]
Michael Davis
Life presented Children's Television Workshop with a real dilemma when Will Lee, the actor who portrayed Mr. Hooper, died fairly suddenly.
- [35:08]
Dr. Loretta Long
I'll sweep for you and that way you can sit down and study because that's what you should be doing. I see, I see. He rode in the Thanksgiving Day parade, went in the hospital and less than.
- [35:21]
Joan Ganz Cooney
Two weeks later Will Lee, and with him Mr. Hooper died.
- [35:27]
Michael Davis
They had to decide what would become.
- [35:32]
Joan Ganz Cooney
Of that character since the show spent so much time researching each episode. The episode where they addressed the death of Mr. Hooper wouldn't air for almost a year after his death.
- [35:44]
Dr. Loretta Long
I just drew pictures of all of my grown up friends. Sesame street and I'm gonna give it to you. They said we have to say the words Mr. Hooper died and it has to be put in Big Bird's mouth because he's the child.
- [36:02]
Michael Davis
Big Bird was a stand in for like a six year old child. He's the child's representative on the street.
- [36:10]
Dr. Loretta Long
And if he had a question, we figured that the, the children were questioning that as well. So we were all in the alcove and sitting around and he had drawn caricatures of each of us and he brought them to give them to us. Hey, it's time for your presents. Present. And then he went to give Mr. Hoopers his. And last but not least, ta da. And that's when we said, well, Big Bird, you know, you remember Mr. Hooper died. Oh yeah, I remember. Well, I'll give it to him when he comes back. Big Bird, Mr. Hooper's not coming back. Why not?
- [37:04]
Regina
Big Bird?
- [37:05]
Dr. Loretta Long
When people die, they don't come back. Ever. No, never. Why not? We did it one time. The assistant director came out, Lisa crying. There were a few things wrong. Anybody want to do it again? And everybody said no. And we ran, we ran for our dressing rooms, you know, that was it, man.
- [37:49]
Joan Ganz Cooney
Coming up, how Sesame street takes on empathy, diversity and some of the country's most divisive issues.
- [38:04]
Michael Davis
Hi, my name is Steven Barrera and I'm a graduate student at Indiana University.
- [38:08]
Joan Ganz Cooney
Here in Bloomington, Indiana.
- [38:10]
Michael Davis
And you're listening to two line from npr.
- [38:24]
Steven Barrera
This message comes from NPR sponsor Oracle Cloud Infrastructure. AI needs lots of speed and computing power. So how do you compete without cost spiraling? Upgrade to Oracle Cloud Infrastructure. OCI is the blazing fast and secure platform for your infrastructure, database application development and AI workloads. Now till the end of March 31, 2020 five new US customers with a minimum financial commitment can cut their current cloud bill in half. See if your company qualifies@oracle.com NPR this.
- [39:00]
Regina
Message comes from NPR sponsor Shopify Start selling with Shopify today. Whether you're a garage entrepreneur or IPO ready, Shopify is the only tool you need to start, run and grow your business without the struggle. Go to shopify.com NPR Part 3.
- [39:17]
Dr. Loretta Long
Don't dish big board. Now, where is that Roosevelt Franklin? Somebody call me by my first and last name. Yes, I called you. And it's about time you got.
- [39:32]
Michael Davis
What's really interesting to me is the character Roosevelt Franklin.
- [39:41]
Dr. Loretta Long
Here I am. Here I am. And there you are. And that's just what we're going to.
- [39:47]
Michael Davis
Get into today, who was an identifiably black character here and there and funny and fresh. And the bits were always set in the schoolhouse, in the classroom, where he clearly spoke in black vernacular.
- [40:04]
Dr. Loretta Long
Rhyme time. Rhyme time. Everybody ready for rhyme time?
- [40:09]
Michael Davis
Well, some in the black community were delighted to see it and thought it was something that Sesame street absolutely needed to do. If your target audience is black, other members of the black community said, oh, no, no, no, no, no.
- [40:24]
Dr. Loretta Long
It was over here, now it's over there.
- [40:29]
Ramtin Arablouei
Right?
- [40:30]
Dr. Loretta Long
Well, that's the difference between here and there.
- [40:34]
Michael Davis
The pressure amounted and they did drop the character.
- [40:43]
Joan Ganz Cooney
Here's the thing, though. The guy who created that character was Matt Robinson, the same guy who played Gordon, Susan's husband. And he was proud of Roosevelt Franklin. Which brings us to a question that Sesame street has been forced to deal with throughout its entire existence. Who should be included in the neighborhood?
- [41:05]
Michael Davis
While there were conservative voices saying that the show was trying to sell something that they didn't necessarily want their children to buy, voices on the left were saying, you folks aren't going far enough.
- [41:22]
Ramtin Arablouei
In the early 1970s, you started to see pushback on representation on Sesame Street. There were feminists who were angry that the Susan character was too subservient to her husband. Two new human characters, Luis and Maria, joined the show after activists asked for more Latino representation in the neighborhood.
- [41:41]
Michael Davis
There were individuals throughout the history of Sesame street saying, you know, why aren't you showing a gay or lesbian family on the show? It's the rare television show that can claim getting criticism from. From both flags. We are looking at the public spat between Texas Senator Ted Cruz and Big Bird. Big Bird put out a tweet after.
- [42:07]
Dr. Loretta Long
Getting the COVID vaccine.
- [42:09]
Michael Davis
He called Big Bird's tweet government propaganda for your 5 year old.
- [42:23]
Ramtin Arablouei
Over the years, Sesame street has become known for taking on more and more of these culturally sensitive topics, trying to help families navigate how to talk about them. It's right there. Along with the ABCs do you tell.
- [42:36]
Dr. Loretta Long
Everybody that it is okay to hug someone who is hid positive, like me? My dad's in jail. In jail. Why?
- [42:48]
Michael Davis
I don't like to talk about it. Most people don't understand.
- [42:52]
Dr. Loretta Long
What does divorce mean? Well, divorce means that Abby's mommy and daddy aren't married anymore.
- [42:59]
Kira Hunting
We see ebbs and flows.
- [43:01]
Joan Ganz Cooney
This is Dr. Kira Hunting, Associate professor at the University of Kentucky, who specialized in children's media.
- [43:08]
Kira Hunting
We see these moments where Sesame street introduces something new, and sometimes you get pushed back from the larger culture relationship to that, or more frequently, politicians relationship to that, and then we move on, and maybe perhaps we don't have something new for a little while, and then we have something new again.
- [43:28]
Dr. Loretta Long
Children don't need this kind of access.
- [43:30]
Michael Davis
At such an early age.
- [43:31]
Dr. Loretta Long
They're simply not ready for it.
- [43:32]
Michael Davis
They're not prepared for it.
- [43:34]
Dr. Loretta Long
And really, we're taking away our children's innocence.
- [43:37]
Michael Davis
We're taking.
- [43:37]
Dr. Loretta Long
Away.
- [43:41]
Ramtin Arablouei
In a country that's so politically divided, what does a show like Sesame street represent in terms of either exacerbating that divide or bridging it?
- [43:53]
Kira Hunting
Well, I don't think it exacerbates it. I think it can be used by people who want to further the divide.
- [44:00]
Dr. Loretta Long
Right.
- [44:00]
Kira Hunting
I think we've certainly seen politicians take moments from Sesame street and tweet about them and be like, oh, my God, Big Bird got a vaccine. Well, Big Bird also got a vaccine. And 70s, he was fine.
- [44:12]
Dr. Loretta Long
I want to get a measles shot. I don't want to get the measles.
- [44:17]
Kira Hunting
So I don't think that Sesame street can really fulfill its goals and its purposes without engaging in some representations and some content that is going to be perceived as political in a negative way by at least some commentators and some politicians.
- [44:37]
Michael Davis
There was in the early days some critique of the government's place in funding Sesame street, but I think the volume on that was increased later in the 80s and, you know, during the. The Newt Gingrich era of the Republican revolution. I mean, it was later when that drumbeat of criticism of the show really grew louder.
- [45:10]
Joan Ganz Cooney
By the mid-1980s, Sesame street had been relying less and less on government funding and more and more on merchandising Sesame street products like stuffed animals, T shirts, and books. But because of its reach and because it symbolized a public, more liberal media, it was an easy target.
- [45:27]
Dr. Loretta Long
When Newt Gingrich, the leader of the Republican revolution, was asked what in the federal budget would first feel his axe, he answered, the Corporation for Public Broadcasting.
- [45:38]
Joan Ganz Cooney
All this criticism hasn't stopped Sesame Street. Children's Television Workshop and now Sesame Workshop from trying to represent what they feel is right for the moment. In 2020, after the murder of George Floyd, Sesame street partnered with CNN to host a town hall on racism called Coming Together.
- [45:58]
Dr. Loretta Long
Racism? What's that? Oh, racism is when people treat other people unfairly because of the way they look or the color of their skin.
- [46:12]
Kira Hunting
If you look at some of the specials or the episodes that are being critiqued by some conservative groups and other commentators, you can really see that they're mostly just about children and Muppets in the community dealing with difficult experiences.
- [46:31]
Dr. Loretta Long
Well, my friend Big Bird, he was bullied by some other birds because of his yellow feathers.
- [46:38]
Kira Hunting
So Sesame street having these direct depictions is very consistent with what it's always done in just a second, slightly more explicit way that is consistent with this historical moment.
- [46:54]
Ramtin Arablouei
They won't stop with their push for woke politics.
- [46:59]
Michael Davis
It's the innocence of kids that's being.
- [47:02]
Joan Ganz Cooney
Attacked earlier and earlier.
- [47:05]
Kira Hunting
And I think what really I want to ask is why that's controversial. Why talking about self esteem and included and being a good friend and dealing with people who have excluded you or been mean to you or treated you badly for part of who you are is okay in some instances, but in other instances is being treated as inappropriate or as, quote, too political?
- [47:37]
Michael Davis
I will tell you this. It's always a mistake to diss Big Bird. Bad idea.
- [47:45]
Ramtin Arablouei
Why can't you diss Big Bird?
- [47:46]
Michael Davis
Over time? What's happened is that we really deeply understand these characters. We know who they are. And to suggest that that Big Bird was doing something stupid or not good for kids just rings false with the viewer.
- [48:10]
Ramtin Arablouei
Like the time presidential candidate Mitt Romney said he'd cancel subsidies to PBS and used Big Bird as a stand in. There were all these memes and media coverage about it, and it was used against him in the election in 2012.
- [48:24]
Dr. Loretta Long
Thank goodness somebody is finally getting tough on Big Bird. We didn't know that Big Bird was.
- [48:30]
Joan Ganz Cooney
Driving the federal deficit.
- [48:32]
Ramtin Arablouei
In December 2024, the streaming service Max announced that it was ending its decade long partnership with Sesame Street. Some Sesame Workshop staff have announced their intent to form a union. Sesame Workshop announced layoff plans shortly after a Sesame Workshop spokesperson told NPR in an email that the decision was made, quote. Amid the changing media and funding landscape.
- [48:59]
Joan Ganz Cooney
It'S impossible to say how much of the rhetoric for or against Sesame street helps anyone's cause. But there is something deeply ingrained in many of us about Sesame street. Something that's decades in the making that makes some adults feel like kids. That makes dissing Big Bird off limits for many people, including me.
- [49:21]
Dr. Loretta Long
Big Bird, I said, was the prototype of the child you were messing with their childhood.
- [49:28]
Ramtin Arablouei
Sesame street started as a way to reach underprivileged kids. It was going above the noise and really above the politics that can slow down and sometimes obstruct real change in schools and governments.
- [49:42]
Joan Ganz Cooney
And because it was started by white liberals from New York City and kickstarted with government funding and aired on public television and meant for black children, the question still remains, who gets to control the neighborhood, the messages, the music they choose, the Muppets who have continued to teach us generation after generation?
- [50:16]
Dr. Loretta Long
One, two, you know what to do. Hey, I'm a little teapot short and stout I am a little teapot, short and stout Here is my handle, here is my spout When I get all steamed out Hear me shout Tip me over and pull me out.
- [51:07]
Joan Ganz Cooney
That's it for this week's show. I'm Runda Der Fat.
- [51:10]
Ramtin Arablouei
I'm Ramtin Arablouei.
- [51:12]
Joan Ganz Cooney
This episode was produced by me and.
- [51:13]
Ramtin Arablouei
Me and Lawrence Wu, Julie Kane, Anya.
- [51:17]
Dr. Loretta Long
Steinberg, Yolanda Sanguine, Casey Minor, Christina Kim.
- [51:21]
Joan Ganz Cooney
Devon Kadayama, Amiri Teller, Jennifer Etienne. And a big huge special thanks to the Throughline kids you heard at the end, Reid, Rumi Soleil and Finley.
- [51:33]
Ramtin Arablouei
Fact checking for this episode we was done by the one and only Kevin Voelkel. Thanks also to Kimberly Sullivan, Micah Ratner, Taylor Ash, Samantha Belgard, Tamar Charney and Anya Grundmann. This episode was mixed by Josh Newell.
- [51:50]
Joan Ganz Cooney
Music for this episode was composed by Ramtin and his band Drop Electric, which.
- [51:54]
Ramtin Arablouei
Includes Anya Mizani, Naveed, Marvi, Sho Fujiwara.
- [52:00]
Joan Ganz Cooney
And and as always, if you have an idea or like something you heard on the show, please write us@throughlinepr.org.
- [52:12]
Ramtin Arablouei
Thanks for listening.
- [52:31]
Regina
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- [52:48]
Steven Barrera
From NPR sponsor Viori A new perspective on performance apparel. Check out the latest Dream Knit collection by visiting viori.com NPR for 20% off your first purchase. Exclusions apply. Visit the website for full terms and conditions.
- [53:05]
Regina
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