We the People: Succession of Power

Summary

Throughline: We the People – Succession of Power

Host: Rund Abdelfatah and Ramtin Arablouei
Release Date: August 14, 2025

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Introduction: The Problem of Presidential Succession

In the episode titled "We the People: Succession of Power," NPR's Throughline delves into the intricate and often overlooked issue of presidential succession in the United States. Hosted by Rund Abdelfatah and Ramtin Arablouei, the episode explores how constitutional ambiguities surrounding presidential incapacity and succession nearly led to crises and how these concerns culminated in the creation of the 25th Amendment.

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John Feerick: The Catalyst for Change

John Feerick, an 89-year-old law professor at Fordham Law School, serves as the central figure in this narrative. In October 1963, two years before the tragic assassination of President John F. Kennedy, Feerick authored a pivotal article in the Fordham Law Review titled "The Problem of Presidential Inability: Will Congress Ever Solve It?" (02:44).

Notable Quote:
"Presidents are mortal. President Garfield's shooting, President Wilson's stroke, and President Eisenhower's heart attack rendered the respective president temporarily unable to exercise the powers and duties of his office."
— John Feerick (06:27)

Feerick was driven by a deep-seated concern about the Constitution's vague provisions regarding what should happen if a president became incapacitated. His relentless research and advocacy were instrumental in spotlighting this critical constitutional gap.

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Historical Context: Precedents of Presidential Incapacity

The U.S. has faced several instances where presidential incapacity raised questions about succession:

1. William Henry Harrison (1841): After Harrison's death, Vice President John Tyler assumed the presidency, setting a precedent despite the Constitution's lack of explicit instructions.
2. James Garfield (1881): Garfield survived an assassination attempt but remained incapacitated for 80 days until Vice President Chester Arthur took over.
3. Woodrow Wilson (1919): Suffered a massive stroke, leading his wife, Edith Wilson, to effectively manage presidential duties for the remainder of his term.

These historical episodes underscored the recurrent problem of unclear succession protocols, compelling thinkers like Feerick to seek definitive solutions.

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The Turning Point: Kennedy's Assassination

On November 22, 1963, President John F. Kennedy was assassinated in Dallas, Texas. This event thrust the issues Feerick had long championed into the national spotlight. As Rund Abdelfatah narrates:

"Six days after Feerick's article was published, the president was assassinated. Suddenly, the theoretical became tragically real." (07:09)

The immediate chaos and uncertainty surrounding the transition of power underscored the urgent need for clear constitutional guidelines.

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The Road to the 25th Amendment

Feerick's advocacy gained momentum post-assassination. Invited to the American Bar Association's (ABA) Special Conference on Presidential Inability in January 1964, he collaborated with legal experts and politicians, including Senator Birch Bayh, to draft a constitutional amendment addressing presidential succession and incapacity (29:11).

Notable Quote:
"I realized that elective politics was not for me, but law reform. And communicating through writings, through talks, would be who I am."
— John Feerick (29:03)

Their collaborative efforts culminated in the proposal of what would become the 25th Amendment. Despite initial setbacks, including congressional adjournment without a vote, persistent advocacy led to its eventual ratification in 1967 (36:12).

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Implementation and Early Applications of the 25th Amendment

The 25th Amendment comprises four sections, addressing various scenarios of presidential and vice-presidential vacancies and incapacities:

1. Section 1: Clarifies that the Vice President becomes President if the presidency becomes vacant.
2. Section 2: Provides for the nomination and confirmation of a new Vice President if the position becomes vacant.
3. Section 3: Allows the President to voluntarily transfer power to the Vice President by declaration.
4. Section 4: Enables the Vice President and a majority of the Cabinet to declare the President incapacitated.

Notable Quote:
"Whenever there's a vacancy in the office of the Vice President, the President shall nominate a Vice President who shall take office upon confirmation by a majority vote of both houses of Congress."
— John Feerick (43:30)

The amendment saw immediate application during the Nixon administration:

• 1973: Vice President Spiro Agnew resigned amid scandal, leading President Nixon to nominate Gerald Ford as his successor. Ford was confirmed swiftly under Section 2 (36:04).
• 1974: Following Nixon's resignation, Ford ascended to the presidency. He then nominated Nelson Rockefeller as Vice President, again utilizing Section 2, marking the 25th Amendment's crucial role in ensuring governmental continuity (43:07).

Ongoing Relevance and Future Implications

While Sections 1 and 2 have been utilized effectively, Section 4 remains untested. However, its potential significance was highlighted during incidents such as:

• 1981: President Ronald Reagan's surgery after an assassination attempt (38:46).
• Recent Political Discourse: Debates around presidential eligibility and capacity, particularly concerning former President Donald Trump and President Joe Biden, have brought Section 4 into hypothetical discussions (46:43).

Notable Quote:
"We all have an obligation as lawyers to keep hope alive because of the rule of law and our Constitution."
— John Feerick (48:43)

Looking forward, Feerick expresses cautious optimism about the amendment process, emphasizing the enduring importance of constitutional adaptability in addressing emerging governmental challenges.

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Conclusion: A Legacy of Preparedness

The "Succession of Power" episode of Throughline underscores the critical importance of clear constitutional guidelines for presidential succession and incapacity. John Feerick's foresight and advocacy played a pivotal role in shaping the 25th Amendment, ensuring that the United States remains resilient in the face of unforeseen crises.

Final Quote:
"I'm not somebody who gives up hope. And I was just that young lawyer that thought that Congress should do something about the 25th Amendment."
— John Feerick (49:01)

Through meticulous research, passionate advocacy, and collaborative effort, Feerick and his contemporaries fortified the constitutional framework, safeguarding the nation's continuity and stability.

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Produced by: Rund Abdelfatah, Ramtin Arablouei, Lawrence Wu, and the Throughline team.

For More Information: Subscribe to Throughline+ for bonus episodes and sponsor-free listening at plus.npr.org/throughline.

Transcript

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[Narrator]

Well, it depends on where they're placed. They can be wherever you want them for the pockets so that.

[John Feerick]

No.

[Narrator]

On a warm day in November 1963, local Dallas TV station WFAA was broadcasting a show about women's fashion. There's zippers up the side so that.

[Whole Foods Market]

The jacket will fit tightly around the hips, keeping that straight, sleek look that.

[Ramtin Arablouei]

It'S when suddenly, out of nowhere, the show was stopped.

[News Anchor]

Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen. You'll excuse the fact that I'm out of breath, but about 10 or 15 minutes ago, a tragic thing, from all indications at this point, has happened in the city of Dallas. Let me quote to you this.

[Narrator]

When the broadcast came back on air, a man appeared on screen looking pale and in shock.

[News Anchor]

He says President Kennedy and Governor John Colony have been cut down by assassin's bullets.

[Ramtin Arablouei]

In downtown Dallas, the American President John F. Kennedy, along with the Governor of Texas were shot. Newsrooms were in chaos trying to figure out what happened.

[News Anchor]

Mr. Kennedy was struck in the head. The first reports say that President Kennedy has been seriously wounded by this shooting. President Kennedy is reported to be fighting for his life in a Dallas hospital. But reports conflict.

[Narrator]

For about an hour, there was no official announcement of whether the President or Vice President were dead or alive.

[Ramtin Arablouei]

John Feerick had become obsessed with the possibility of a moment just like this. But he wasn't expecting it so soon.

[John Feerick]

My name is John Furyk. I'm a professor at Fordham Law School.

[Narrator]

Today, John is a professor at the law school he graduated from. He's 89 years old.

[John Feerick]

I am most likely the oldest professor full time at Fordham Law School.

[Ramtin Arablouei]

But back in 1961, two years before Dallas, John was an idealistic, newly minted attorney on a mission to convince people that something essential was missing from the Constitution. Clear instructions for what should happen if a US President was unable to do his job. He researched it for years.

[Legal Expert]

One of the most critical and intriguing constitutional questions ever presented for solution is what happens when the President of the United States becomes incapable of discharging the powers and duties of his office.

[Ramtin Arablouei]

This is an excerpt from an article John published in the Fordham law review in October 1963.

[Legal Expert]

Does the Vice President become President for the remainder of the term?

[John Feerick]

Or.

[Legal Expert]

Or does he merely act as President during the period of inability? The Constitution is not explicit.

[Ramtin Arablouei]

John focuses in on Article 2, Section 1, Clause 6 of the Constitution, it goes like this.

[Narrator]

In case of the removal of the President from office, or of his death, resignation, or inability to discharge the powers and duties of the said office, the same shall devolve on the Vice President. And the Congress may by law provide for the case of removal, death, resignation or inability, both of the President and Vice President, declaring what officer shall then act as President, and such officer shall act accordingly until the disability be removed or a President shall be elected.

[Ramtin Arablouei]

Okay, now to translate. What that basically means is that if the President dies or resigns or is unable to serve the role of President, then the Vice President would serve in his place. And if the Vice President can't serve, then Congress has to decide which officer of government should step in as President. But that's about it. No more specifics. Now, at the time, this issue was not exactly top of mind for most Americans, because John's article came out in October 1963, a time when President Kennedy seemed vital and healthy. But John had lots of questions, like who decides when a President is unable to serve? What happens next? Is the transfer of power to the Vice President temporary or permanent? What if there is no Vice President to him? The fact that the current President was young and healthy, that the questions didn't seem urgent, made it the ideal time to hash it out.

[John Feerick]

I didn't want the article to just go on a library shelf, so he.

[Narrator]

Started mailing out copies. He sent them everywhere to current and former politicians. He even sent one to the White House.

[John Feerick]

I had a response from an assistant to President Kennedy on November 13th.

[Narrator]

It went like, the President has received.

[John Feerick]

Your letter and asked me to thank you for sending him the accompanied copy of your article.

[Narrator]

An acknowledgement. Not bad. But then the personal responses started coming in. He got one from the Attorney General, Robert F. Kennedy, John F. Kennedy's brother.

[John Feerick]

It says as Dear Mr. Feerick, thank you very much for sending me a copy of your article on the subject of President inability. I appreciate you bringing it to my attention as this is a subject which we have been studying here in the department for some time. Sincerely, Robert F. Kennedy.

[Narrator]

Then he hears from Richard Nixon.

[John Feerick]

Dear Mr. Furich, I appreciate your sending me a copy of your article on presidential inability. This is a subject in which I am most interested.

[Narrator]

You aimed high?

[John Feerick]

Well, I didn't know better.

[Narrator]

And it didn't stop with politicians. He wrote a letter to the editor of the New York Times. In all of these letters, he emphasized this problem has come up before in our history, more than once, and Congress has never solved it.

[John Feerick]

Presidents are mortal. President Garfield's shooting, President Wilson's stroke, and President Eisenhower's heart attack rendered the respective president temporarily unable to exercise the powers and duties of his office. Despite this, Congress has consistently failed the American people by not acting to eliminate the possibility of a gap in the executive because of the confusion existing over the meaning of the succession provision of the Constitution.

[Narrator]

In the end, John didn't just want a discussion, he wanted more. He wanted a constitutional amendment.

[John Feerick]

I think I had an expectation that people who had an interest in the subject would examine the article with the hope that it would make a case for reform. Six days later, the president was assassinated. It's official now, the president is dead. There's only one word to describe the picture here, and that's grief, and much of it. It's official. As of just a few moments ago.

[Ramtin Arablouei]

November 22, 1963, John F. Kennedy became the eighth U.S. president to die in office. Suddenly, the alarms John Furyk had been raising became very loud. And John believed that then, finally, someone would turn something about it. I'm Ramtin Arablouei.

[Narrator]

And I'm Rund Abdelfattah. You're listening to Throughline from npr.

[Ramtin Arablouei]

Written into the Constitution is a way to change it. But we do that less and less on this episode of our ongoing series, we the People. The story behind one of the last amendments to the Constitution, the 25th, and the man who Got it done.

[John Feerick]

Hi, this is Mike from BRNO in the Czech Republic, and you're listening to Throughline. A class act this program.

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[Narrator]

Discover [e-mail] Part 1 the question of succession.

[Ramtin Arablouei]

Ready?

[Narrator]

All right, I'm recording.

[John Feerick]

All right.

[Narrator]

I'm ready.

[Ramtin Arablouei]

You're always ready. True professional. All right, so you and throughline producer extraordinaire Lawrence Wu went to Fordham University to interview our main character in this story, John Furyk. All right, so take me through what happens when you get there.

[Narrator]

It was a cold, whole day around, and I remember I, I, I took the subway, and I met Lawrence in the lobby.

[Ramtin Arablouei]

Okay.

[Narrator]

And then, you know, we turned on.

[Ramtin Arablouei]

The recorder, as you have to do.

[Narrator]

And then we got on the elevator, rode up to. I don't remember which floor it is, but when we got off the elevator, I think it was John's assistant. She very nicely, like, walked us to his office.

[Whole Foods Market]

Hi, nice to meet you.

[Narrator]

Nice to meet you. I'm from Run and, like, from the moment that we walked into the office, honestly, like, this is gonna sound cheesy, but it was like walking to a time capsule.

[Ramtin Arablouei]

Okay.

[Narrator]

Hello. Hi. Hi. I'm Run.

[John Feerick]

Have we met before?

[Narrator]

We have not met before, but.

[John Feerick]

What's your name?

[Narrator]

Rund Ren R E N R U N D. Like, RUN with a D. Like, you look around, and it was, like, all around. I mean, it was interesting. Half of the office was covered with, like, framed pictures of him and, like, congress people and lawyers and other people that he'd worked with over the years. And then the other half of the office was covered with pictures of, like, his grandkids. And then, you know, he had, like, all these law books, you know, along the wall.

[Ramtin Arablouei]

And did it seem like he was eager? Because people aren't just knocking on his door every day wanting to talk about this story.

[Narrator]

I think it had been a while, huh? Yeah, I think it had been a while. He's been at Fordham, you know, like, for so much of his, you know, academic life. And obviously, that's where he got his start. That's where he worked on the 25th Amendment office. Because it's so special to be here, right? I mean, Fordham is where it all began.

[Ramtin Arablouei]

John Furyk was born in 1936 in New York. His parents had arrived in the US not long before.

[John Feerick]

My parents were immigrants and no formal education. I was the firstborn.

[Ramtin Arablouei]

John experienced a similar upbringing that I and many of you listening experienced.

[John Feerick]

I grew in understanding of the importance of getting an education and in using it to make a difference.

[Ramtin Arablouei]

Despite that pressure, John wasn't a good student as a kid, no matter how hard he tried. But his parents weren't accepting any excuses.

[John Feerick]

It was a slow start for me in grammar school, and my father insisted one summer that I not go out until I understood math much better than my grades indicated.

[Ramtin Arablouei]

Whatever his parents did, it worked. In fact, he did well enough to get a scholarship to go to Fordham University in the Bronx, New York, a school just a short subway ride away from where he grew up. He lived between two worlds, One at college and one back in his blue collar neighborhood. He went to classes during the day and worked shifts at a local supermarket in the evenings.

[John Feerick]

I felt a real commitment working in a supermarket. Be as good as you can be in serving people at the cash register and putting food on shelves.

[Ramtin Arablouei]

Even with the job, he found time to be a part of Fordham's student government.

[John Feerick]

I was vice president of my class and also the student body. That service experience was very important because I saw that you could make differences.

[Ramtin Arablouei]

And it was in the college student government where John had his first experience with the problem of succession of power in the most nerdy, dramatic kind of way.

[John Feerick]

I remember when I was vice president of the student body at Fordham College in my last year, I had to deal with the inability of a newly elected president.

[Ramtin Arablouei]

Inability as in the president is unable to serve.

[Narrator]

What would that be? A medical issue?

[John Feerick]

Yeah, he had a medical issue. And. And as soon as he was elected, he resigned.

[Ramtin Arablouei]

The president of the student government stepped down, and suddenly everyone had an opinion about who should succeed him. Some people called for a new election, but remember, John was the student body vice president.

[John Feerick]

I said that under the constitution, the vice president becomes the president and is not going to. It should not be a new election, a standoff.

[Ramtin Arablouei]

But Fordham had a student court. I'm not joking here. That would decide these kinds of matters.

[John Feerick]

And they sustained the position I had taken, that the student constitution provided for succession.

[Narrator]

That's dramatic for a student body, like counts. It kind of. It's almost like a mock trial of what would come later a little bit.

[Ramtin Arablouei]

So John became president of the student government because the student constitution spelled out that process. President resigns, then vice president becomes president. In this case, John Feerick. And he found this whole process really motivating.

[John Feerick]

It became clear to me by the time I got into my last year of college that going to law school would be very supportive of an interest in going into elective politics. And making a difference.

[Ramtin Arablouei]

So John applied for law school at Fordham University and got in. He thrived there. He was the editor of the school's law review. But he didn't forget about presidential succession. He couldn't. It was all over the news.

[News Anchor]

Eisenhower seemed perfectly healthy in these films made in 1955, just before his sudden heart attack. His illness revealed once again America's unpreparedness to deal adequately with such an emergency.

[Ramtin Arablouei]

In 1955, President Dwight D. Eisenhower had a major heart attack in the Denver.

[News Anchor]

Church where Ike worshiped In churches and synagogues all across a shocked nation, America joined in spirit with Vice President Nixon facing grave burdens in a situation not adequately defined by constitutional law.

[Ramtin Arablouei]

The president was hospitalized. And right away people started asking, who's gonna run the White House while he's on the mend? Well, first place they might go is the Constitution to figure it out. Okay. Article two, section one, clause six of the Constitution says that if the president is no longer able to discharge his duties because of removal from office, death, resignation, or inability, then the vice president assumes the powers and duties of the president. Okay, so then what happens? People quickly realize that the Constitution didn't say anything beyond what was in Article 2. For example, would the vice president just be a caretaker until a new election was held, or would he be the legitimate president? And so, with President Eisenhower's mounting medical troubles, it wasn't clear who was going to decide if and when the vice president, Richard Nixon, would take over his duties. The two men eventually did work out a deal. Nixon would serve as acting president until Eisenhower returned. Disaster averted. But John Feerick wasn't satisfied, assured that.

[John Feerick]

There was a problem of inability.

[Ramtin Arablouei]

Remember, John had experience with this kind of thing and he loved tied to.

[John Feerick]

Interest in the Constitution. So I started to collect information.

[Ramtin Arablouei]

That is an understatement. John began obsessively researching the history of this issue. Even after he graduated and got a job as a lawyer, he kept going.

[John Feerick]

I used to go to the Fordham library at the Rose Hill campus. And if there was a holiday, I worked on it whenever I could. I was putting in a lot of hours at the law firm and I wanted to take a look at the history in terms of the problem itself.

[Narrator]

What kinds of like, historical examples were you coming across as you were, as you were digging into the research?

[John Feerick]

Wilbur Wilson, James Garfield.

[Ramtin Arablouei]

Okay, here we're going to stop and I'm going to take you on a fun journey into the past. Cases where a president died and there was some lack of clarity about who would take on their role. Let's start with president William Henry Harrison, the ninth president of the United States. His inauguration was on a cold, Rainy Day in 1841. Standing outside in the rain, he gave the longest inaugural speech in American history. He spoke for nearly two hours. Anyway, he came down with pneumonia and died a month later. His vice president, John Tyler, quickly assumed his office. He was the first vice president to become president. After the president died, it set up a new precedent, because up to that point, no president had died in office. And again, there was no explicit instructions in the constitution about what to do. But interestingly, president Tyler never appointed a vice president, and himself nearly died in a sailing accident three years later. And then there was president James Garfield, the 20th president of the United States. He was shot at a train station in Washington, D.C. in July 1881. He survived, but was severely injured and bedridden for weeks. He wasn't dead, and people tried everything to keep him alive. Even Alexander Graham bell, the inventor of the telephone, tried his newly created metal detector to help doctors try to find where the bullet was lodged in the president's body. But it didn't work, and Garfield couldn't really function as president, as an infection slowly destroyed his body. Garfield ultimately lived for 80 days. And the entire time, many people in the country wondered who should serve as president. There was basically no acting president until Garfield died and the vice president took his place. And finally, there was another famous case, this time from the 20th century.

[Legal Expert]

In.

[Ramtin Arablouei]

In 1919, Woodrow Wilson, the 28th president of the United States, had a massive stroke which incapacitated him for the remainder of his presidency. Many historians believe his wife, Edith Wilson, was effectively acting as president in his absence for nearly a year and a half until the end of his term. Through his research, John furyk saw all these cases and realized that even though this problem had come up repeatedly in US History, no one had ever crafted a permanent solution.

[John Feerick]

I was shocked by that.

[Ramtin Arablouei]

And so he decided he was going to channel that shock into writing an article about it.

[John Feerick]

And of course, being a former editor of the law review, I had a pathway to writing about the problem of presidential ability. And that became my most important writing.

[Ramtin Arablouei]

His October 1963 article in Fordham law review.

[John Feerick]

It was called the problem of presidential inability. Will congress ever solve It?

[Ramtin Arablouei]

The problem of presidential inability. Will congress ever solve It?

[John Feerick]

Question mark?

[Ramtin Arablouei]

Question mark.

[Narrator]

Well, I guess this is the thing, right? Because, you know, you were writing it at a time when John f. Kennedy is in office, A young, you know, strapping president, and I guess I wonder why did you think this was so important? Like you, it's because it sounds like, I mean, you were spending your weekends, your holidays working on this question. Why did you feel like the average person should even care? Why did you think that that was an important problem to solve?

[John Feerick]

The articles I read and learning that I developed indicated that there was really a major problem here and they just couldn't get their hands around how to solve it.

[Narrator]

And what, in the most simple terms, was the problem for the average person? And what could the potential consequences be of not solving it? I guess.

[John Feerick]

Well, I guess one way to look at it go back to the Constitutional Convention.

[Ramtin Arablouei]

The Constitutional Convention was the big meeting that lasted the entire summer of 1787, where a group of delegates from the American states met in Philadelphia and wrote the U.S. constitution. And they saw this coming, this problem of presidential succession that John was tackling almost 200 years later. The delegates actually discussed it at some.

[John Feerick]

Point in the convention. John Dickinson of Delaware, as I recall, says, what is an ability? He says that who determines what is an inability?

[Narrator]

And he's asking this in like, 1787, 1787.

[John Feerick]

And so what is an inability? What happens in the case of an inability, so to speak? And who determines it? And nobody answered him.

[Narrator]

What is the threat to the country potentially, or what is the threat hanging over the country in the event of, you know, an inability of the president?

[John Feerick]

I wrote the article at a time of potential nuclear war, and if something happened to a president who was still.

[Ramtin Arablouei]

Alive after an assassination attempt or illness.

[John Feerick]

For example, the consequences for the country would have been enormous. It would have been a crisis. A flash from Dallas coming up, a.

[Ramtin Arablouei]

President is shot and John goes to Washington.

[John Feerick]

This is Rachel from the Upper west side of Manhattan, and you're listening to Throughline on npr.

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[Narrator]

Part 2 the Road to an Amendment well, the president.

[John Feerick]

Was shot in Texas.

[News Anchor]

What is your reaction to that?

[John Feerick]

Well, I tell you, it upsets me very much to hear that, because that's the only man that I got my.

[News Anchor]

Trust in for President.

[Ramtin Arablouei]

On November 22, 1963, when President John F. Kennedy was pronounced dead, John Furich was only two years out of law school.

[John Feerick]

I remember being in a meeting as a young lawyer and receiving a call telling me the president had just been shot. We were all just in a state of shock hearing that.

[Ramtin Arablouei]

Even before that day, John was already laser focused on the question of what would happen if a president suddenly couldn't serve for about an hour. There was no official word if JFK was alive or dead. In that uncertainty, John gamed out the options.

[John Feerick]

He clearly would have been disabled and we would have had a crisis on our hands. With the ambiguity about the status of a vice president in a case of inability, does he take the office for the rest of the term of that president, even if the president recovers? Or does he be just an acting president for the duration of the inability?

[Ramtin Arablouei]

And Arthur Kroc, a New York Times journalist who'd read John's article about this.

[John Feerick]

Issue, publishes an article and makes reference to my article.

[Journalist]

What is inability? Who raises the question of when it has occurred and when it has ended, and who resolves these questions when they have been raised? Suppose a disabled president refuses to certify it, or if he asserts it proclaims the end of his disability when it still exists. How is the government crisis to be met?

[John Feerick]

I'm totally shocked when somebody told me that I was quoted in the New York Times, they are the Kroc. And then I started getting quills.

[Journalist]

One of the best studies of the subject was published by John D. Feerick in the October 1963 issue of the Fordham Law Review. His solution is a constitutional amendment, because.

[Narrator]

Suddenly it looked like you almost predicted.

[John Feerick]

My life changed because somehow I started to get requests for the article.

[Ramtin Arablouei]

Things started moving fast and it became clear that John's writing And ideas could play a role in whatever came next.

[John Feerick]

I realized that elective politics was not for me, but law reform. And communicating through writings, through talks, would be who I am.

[Ramtin Arablouei]

Just a few weeks after President Kennedy's assassination, the American Bar association, the aba, announced a meeting called Special Conference on Presidential Inability. The lawyers were ready to dive in. It was scheduled for January 1964, and John was invited to be a part of it.

[John Feerick]

The staff of the aba, they had seen the reference to the article, and they recommended this young lawyer in New York who wrote this article that was quoted in the Times should be invited to be a member of the group.

[Ramtin Arablouei]

All of the lawyers invited to the conference were given background materials in preparation.

[John Feerick]

And the first document to read is my article.

[Legal Expert]

Our strength and survival depend on our having an able leader at the head of the executive branch at all times. The continuity of the executive should never be in doubt. At present it is.

[Narrator]

You had done all the work already? Basically, yeah.

[John Feerick]

Yeah, it was complete. The article was out there.

[Legal Expert]

A constitutional crisis exists. It is time that Congress act to resolve it once and for all.

[Ramtin Arablouei]

So John goes to the ABA meeting in January. He's sitting around with all these lawyers. One of them was even an elected politician, Democratic Senator Birch Bayh from Indiana. And they've all read his article and obviously they have some questions for John.

[John Feerick]

Why an amendment? Is there any issue about whether the President should be able to declare his own inability?

[Ramtin Arablouei]

So basically, can the President decide himself when he's not able to do the job anymore, or should someone else make that call? Should the vice president? This was tricky territory.

[John Feerick]

If you gave the authority only to the vice President, the American public are going to see a battle between the the President and the vice President. And it looked like a coup. It's like a coup.

[Ramtin Arablouei]

In other words, if it's just up to the VP to decide if the President is fit to serve, then what's stopping them from using that power to basically take over the presidency?

[John Feerick]

So all of that we sort of worked through and at the end of the day put out recommendations.

[Ramtin Arablouei]

The biggest one being we need a constitutional amendment. The ABA lawyers, including John, sketched out what this could look like. First they said that if the President is unable to serve, then power goes to the vice President, who will serve either to the end of the term or until the President is able again. Who decides if the President is unable to serve? Well, the President himself can do that or. Or the vice President, as long as he has enough votes from the cabinet or some other body approved by Congress. Okay. So the ABA took these recommendations to Congress.

[John Feerick]

Several of us on the conference also were invited to testify in subsequent days.

[Journalist]

Do you have some concern that it would be difficult for the Vice President and also the Cabinet members to act with the necessary degree of impartiality? Would they be torn between loyalty to the President and the Vice President? I think all of these are legitimate questions for us to discuss before making a final decision.

[Legal Expert]

I feel this way, Mr. Chairman. First of all, I feel that nobody outside of the Cabinet would have the confidence of the people of the country. Certainly the Cabinet is a body that is recognized as consisting of people close to the President.

[Ramtin Arablouei]

This is from John Furyk's testimony in Congress. It wasn't recorded, so it's being reenacted here. Senator Birch Bayh is asking the questions.

[Journalist]

In other words, you don't think removal of a disabled President is something to be taken lightly?

[Legal Expert]

Not at all, Senator. I feel very strongly that any provision which we adopt should be weighed as heavily in favor of the President as possible, because it seems to me that this is the single greatest institution we have. And I would be very reluctant to see us set up a commission consisting of people who were neither appointed or elected.

[Ramtin Arablouei]

Eventually, a draft of a constitutional amendment worked its way through Congress with Senator Birch Bayh leading the way.

[Narrator]

This is top priority at this point.

[John Feerick]

Yeah, it was magnificent.

[Ramtin Arablouei]

It didn't immediately succeed. Congress adjourned without the House voting on it. But Senator Birch Bayh didn't give up. In 1965, he introduced it again.

[Narrator]

How directly were you involved in terms of the deliberations on, you know, the Senate and House floors? Were you, like, you know, running papers to people, taking notes? Like, how directly were you involved in that whole process?

[John Feerick]

Well, in many ways, I had several roles.

[Ramtin Arablouei]

First, as an organizer. He became a part of the ABA's Young Lawyers Committee on Presidential Inability and Vice Presidential vacancy.

[John Feerick]

I did the best I could to energize the young lawyers of America. And we were very active, talking to the members of Congress from our state, both the House and the Senate.

[Ramtin Arablouei]

Second, educating lawyers and the public about the amendment.

[John Feerick]

I wrote articles on it in the ABA Journal. So in the ABA Journal at the time. Today we got social media. We get so many publications. But at that time, that was an important publication. So the lawyers are getting educated all over America.

[Narrator]

You're educating them. So you were educated. You were really, like, shepherding it. It sounds like people were carrying the.

[John Feerick]

Material and the literature and passing it on.

[Narrator]

I mean, that's the part of all of this. You know, that I think it's easy to forget, like you're still in your. You're in your 20s, you're pretty fresh out of law school when all this is happening. Like it must have been a whirlwind to just be literally on the front lines of shaping the Constitution.

[John Feerick]

Well, I was so busy, I don't think I focused on what was really happening. You know, I was working as a practicing lawyer. I was putting in a lot of time.

[Ramtin Arablouei]

So after months of organizing and educating and Senator Birch Bayh working his colleagues trying to get their votes, the bill was reintroduced.

[John Feerick]

And when that was introduced in January 65, it had 70 sponsors in the Senate. They all wanted to get their name on it.

[Ramtin Arablouei]

The bill passed both houses of Congress. But in order for the bill to become an Amendment to the U.S. constitution Constitution, 3ths of state legislatures had to ratify it. It's very time consuming and difficult to achieve. But in 1967, two years after the bill was introduced, the 25th Amendment to the US Constitution was ratified. John Feerick's dream had become a real.

[News Anchor]

At the White House, a vital piece of legislation reaches President Johnson's desk. It's the 25th Constitutional Amendment providing for the replacement of any disabled president or the filling of any vice presidential vacancy.

[Ramtin Arablouei]

The 25th Amendment has four sections. The first three are straightforward. Basically, collectively, they say that when a President is removed from office or dies or resigns, the Vice President automatically becomes President. If a vice President dies or resigns, then the President nominates a replacement and that person has to be approved by votes from both houses of Congress. If a President sends a letter to Congress saying they can't continue their duties because they're unable physically or mentally, then the Vice President takes on the President's duties until the President can do it again or there's another election.

[John Feerick]

Availing myself of the constitutional option offered to this office Office by Section 3 of the 25th Amendment, which permits through a written declaration to temporarily transfer all powers of the presidency to the next in the constitutional line of succession.

[Ramtin Arablouei]

Anyone else who watches the show the West Wing like me, might remember when President Bartlett invoked the 25th Amendment after his daughter was kidnapped, there was no Vice President, so he handed power to the speaker of the House.

[John Feerick]

I want it as clear as can be that this administration stands squarely behind and shoulder to shoulder with the acting President.

[Ramtin Arablouei]

Then there's Section four, the longest section, the most controversial one. It basically says that the Vice President and the cabinet or some other body designated by Congress can determine if the president is unable to serve. If they get together and vote that the President is mentally or physically incapacitated, then the vice president will assume the powers and duties of the President.

[Narrator]

I'm wondering if you can explain what the thinking was in terms of making it pretty, you know, like a really high bar essentially, to get to the point where a president is being declared, you know, as having an inability.

[John Feerick]

We start with the principle that people choose a president, as we recently did, for a term of four years, and that's a major part of the Constitution. So the amendment makes it clear, it goes to Congress, the vote is in two houses and it takes 2/3 of each house and it was felt that that was really protective of the four year term and nobody wanted to process uninibility where we got to make an instant decision and it could be a crisis if you don't make it. President's plane went down, you can't find the president, whatever it might be.

[Ramtin Arablouei]

Coming up, the 25th amendment gets its first test.

[John Feerick]

Hi, my name is Alistair Hetting and I am a professor of history at Muskingham University in New Concord, Ohio. I often use your show in my classes. You are listening to Throughline from npr.

[Whole Foods Market]

Support for this podcast and the following message come from Made in Cookware President and co founder Jake Kalik shares the key ingredients that go into Made in products.

[Ramtin Arablouei]

We try to design products that are.

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Going to last you an incredibly long.

[Ramtin Arablouei]

Time and to know that we're making.

[Sony Pictures Classics]

This in places that take the raw materials seriously, take the manufacturing processes seriously.

[Ramtin Arablouei]

That'S ultimately what's going to allow us.

[Sony Pictures Classics]

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[Whole Foods Market]

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[Narrator]

Part 3 the 25th before Richard Nixon.

[Ramtin Arablouei]

Resigned in 1974 following the Watergate scandal, there was his vice president, Spiro Agnew.

[News Anchor]

The American people deserve to have a Vice president president who commands their unimpaired confidence and implicit trust. For more than two months now, you have not had such a vice president.

[Ramtin Arablouei]

During the Watergate Investigation which implicated Nixon in a major political scandal that was rocking the country. A separate investigation was happening involving Agnew. There were allegations that he had been involved in bribery while serving in Maryland politics, including his role as governor. Agnew called these allegations damned lies. And at least to the public, Nixon backed him.

[News Anchor]

The charges that have been made against him and which he has denied publicly, he has denied to me privately on three occasions.

[Ramtin Arablouei]

But the pressure for Agnew to resign was growing. He told Nixon first in October 1960, then he told the country on national television.

[News Anchor]

In this technological age, image becomes dominant. Appearance supersedes reality. An appearance of wrongdoing, whether true or false, in fact is damaging to any man. But more important, it is fatal to a man who must be ready at any moment to step into the present.

[John Feerick]

Say.

[Ramtin Arablouei]

Spiro Agnew's resignation left Richard Nixon without a vice president, which meant that six years after the 25th Amendment was ratified, it got its first test. The amendment has four parts. The one that concerns the vice presidency is Section 2.

[John Feerick]

Section 2.

[Ramtin Arablouei]

John Furyk, who helped draft the 25th Amendment, reads it for us.

[John Feerick]

Whenever there's a vacancy in the office of the Vice President, the President shall nominate a Vice President who shall take office upon confirmation by a majority vote of both houses of Congress. And it was used for the first and only time during the period of 1973 and 74 when the Vice President resigned from office. The President Nixon was able to nominate Gerald Ford, the minority leader of the House of Representatives, to be the new Vice President, who was confirmed within two months after the nomination on today, having confirmed the nomination of Gerald R. Ford of the State of Michigan to be Vice President of the United States, the proceedings required by Section 2 of the 25th Amendment to the United States Constitution have been complied with.

[Ramtin Arablouei]

So Gerald Ford became the Vice president. Then the following year, President Richard Nixon resigned, which meant that under the 25th Amendment, Section 1, newly confirmed Vice President Ford would now become President Ford. He then nominated his new vice president again under Section 2, Nelson Rockefeller. So within a year, the 25th Amendment was invoked three separate times.

[John Feerick]

We never speculated about that scenario, that's for sure. I mean, we never had anything like that in our history.

[Narrator]

As someone who had helped to, you know, build this amendment that was becoming very, very critical in this chaotic moment around the Watergate scandal. What did that look like for you? Realizing this was having a very, very direct impact on the country's future?

[John Feerick]

I was just thrilled, obviously, like many of us, because Watergate was terrible. But keep in mind, Process involved both houses of Congress filling a vacancy and a vice presidency. And every district in the country had a representative in Congress. They wanted to get as close to the people as possible without a popular election, because you'd have an Electoral College.

[Journalist]

Election.

[John Feerick]

And the House had to be included in every district in the country.

[Ramtin Arablouei]

This wouldn't be the only time the 25th Amendment would be invoked. Section 3, which allows the president to initiate a power transfer that was used once by Ronald Reagan, twice by President George W. Bush, and once by President Joe Biden, all for being under anesthesia for many medical procedures. The only part of the amendment that has never been used is Section four. That's the one where power is taken from the president. It basically says that the vice president and the Cabinet can determine if the president is unable to serve. If they get together and vote that the president is physically or mentally incapacitated, then the vice president will assume the powers and duties of the president as acting president. Section four almost had to be invoked when President Ronald Reagan was shot in 1981. A bullet was about an inch from Reagan's heart and he had to undergo surgery, but it wasn't invoked. People also mentioned section 4 more recently when talking about former President Joe Biden's age and when President Trump's opponents questioned his capacity to lead at the end of his first term. But so far, all that discussion has.

[Narrator]

Only been hypothetical, Obviously impossible to predict the future. But I am curious, given your lifetime of work on all sorts of issues relating to the Constitution, and we have been working on a series about amendments, and this is one of the last amendments to have ever been passed, what do you think is the future of the 25th Amendment, specifically, and the amendment process generally?

[John Feerick]

I do think, at the end of the day, we've been through a lot of issues in our country's history. We had, you know, the Confederacy and long time before women could vote, participate, and African American women, even when other women could vote. And we've gotten. We've been able to move beyond that. The way I see the world, I respect our Constitution. I hear presidents of both parties say, talk about the Constitution as part of their advocacy. It's a written Constitution. It's been the longest written Constitution in the history of the world. And it makes clear from the start that the sovereignty of the people, we the people. And if you want to change the Constitution, it's not easy. But I don't rule out another constitutional amendment, even though it's very hard. And I have the confidence that the American people, whether you understand the Constitution or not? You do understand there's something out there called the Constitution.

[Narrator]

It's rare to hear someone speak hopefully about any of this. Frankly, today it feels like the popular sentiment is despair, is pessimism what fuels your hope?

[John Feerick]

We all have an obligation as lawyers to keep hope alive because of the rule of law and our Constitution. And it's not easy, but that doesn't mean it can't be done. I'm not somebody who gives up hope. And I was just that young lawyer that thought that Congress should do something about the 25th Amendment.

[Narrator]

I feel like it's especially, you know, I don't know, powerful kind of having this conversation with you sitting here in Fordham where, like, all this began. And, and I think it's kind of beautiful that you're here. Like, it's sort of a that's awfully nice of you.

[John Feerick]

I mean, that just it's, you know, when I read the pages in there last night, you know, I wouldn't be able to do that today. And it brought back a lot of memories of people who are all gone, you know, and, and yet, like myself, had belief in America.

[Ramtin Arablouei]

That's it for this week's show. I'm Ramtin Arablouei.

[Narrator]

I'm Rand Abdelfatah and you've been listening to throughline from npr.

[Ramtin Arablouei]

This episode was produced by me and.

[Narrator]

Me and Lawrence Wu, Julian, Julie Kay.

[Whole Foods Market]

Anya Steinberg, Casey Miner, Christina Kim, Devin.

[Narrator]

Kadayama, Sarah Wyman, Irene Noguchi. Voiceover Work in this episode was done by Neal Rauch and Zach Forrest.

[Ramtin Arablouei]

Thank you to Johnnette Oakes, Keandre Starling, Johannes Durkee, Toni Cavan, Nadia Lancy, Edith Chapin and Colin Campbell.

[Narrator]

Fact checking for this episode was done by Kevin Voelkel. This episode was mixed by Robert Rodriguez. Music for this episode was composed by Ramtin and his band Drop Electric, which.

[Ramtin Arablouei]

Includes Naveed Marvi, Sho Fujiwara, Anya Mizani. And finally, if you have an idea or like something you heard on the show, write [e-mail] thanks for listening.

[Whole Foods Market]

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