The Hustler That Changed The AAU Game Myron Piggie

Summary

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Throwbacks with Matt Leinart & Jerry Ferrara

Episode: The Hustler That Changed The AAU Game: Myron Piggie
Date: November 26, 2025

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Episode Overview

This episode dives deep into the untold and often misunderstood story of Myron Piggie, a legendary figure in the AAU basketball world whose controversial career drastically influenced the current landscape of amateur and college sports. Hosts Matt Leinart and Jerry Ferrara explore how Piggie’s decisions, challenges, and sacrifices shaped both the AAU circuit and many young athletes’ lives. Their conversation touches on athlete recruitment, the commercialization of youth sports, the impact of NIL (Name, Image, Likeness) reforms, and the personal costs Piggie faced for actions now widely accepted.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Life Updates and Host Banter

Timestamps: 00:32–03:36

• Jerry and Matt open with family stories, Jerry's 46th birthday, and the chaos (or peace) of fatherhood.
• They reflect on generational changes and their own upbringing in sports.

2. Setting the Scene: The Myth and Impact of Myron Piggie

Timestamps: 03:36–06:40

• Jerry introduces the legendary status of Myron Piggie, “the godfather of AAU,” who shaped the careers of notable athletes despite later being incarcerated for actions now largely permitted.
• Discussion of Piggie’s new book, The Hustler That Changed the Game, and its Hollywood potential.

3. The Golden Age of AAU: Talent and Legends

Timestamps: 08:10–12:41

• Matt and Jerry reminisce about legendary AAU and high school players, emphasizing the talent pipeline and unpredictability of who "makes it." Discussion centers on Shea Cotton, Stephon Marbury, and Felipe Lopez.
• Insight: "The talent only gets you so far, man. It's like the mental part. It's the grind." - Matt (12:18)

4. Introducing Myron Piggie — His Beginnings and Philosophy

Timestamps: 13:00–16:24

• Piggie describes facing powerhouse teams (e.g., NY Riverside Church) and the moment he realized he needed to “recruit like the big boys” to compete.
• Notable quote: “We got smashed by 50...That’s when I had to regroup, man. I got to go out and recruit some players to play against these big boys.” – Myron Piggie (14:02)

5. Building a Program: Recruiting and Changing the Game

Timestamps: 14:30–16:24

• Piggie details his recruiting methods pre-social media: flying around the country, consulting recruiting services, and holding tryouts by bringing top prospects to Kansas City.

6. Then vs. Now: The Shift in AAU Culture

Timestamps: 17:22–19:26

• Differences between Piggie’s era and now:
  • Then: Mixed sponsorship; “Everybody played everybody.”
  • Now: Brands dictate tournaments; parents are much more involved.
• “Back then parents weren’t paying to be in that space...I would have my parents drop my kids off.” – Myron Piggie (17:56)

7. Why Piggie’s Story Matters

Timestamps: 20:10–22:09

• Piggie insists his motivation was purely to help kids from the hood: “My job was...to make sure when they went home, they was able to have lights, gas, and food...I was just trying to help kids get out of the hood.” (20:10)
• He challenges the media narrative of “paying kids,” explaining it was basic support, not bribery.

8. Entanglement with Shoe Companies

Timestamps: 23:04–31:35

• Piggie recalls being courted by Nike, Adidas, and Sonny Vaccaro. He describes turning down a $1M cash Adidas offer to remain loyal to Nike, a decision he regrets.
• Memorable moment: “This guy [George Raveling] got on his knees and cried...I turned a million dollars down...That was one of the worst decisions I ever made.” (26:16, 28:20)

9. Scapegoated by the NCAA

Timestamps: 37:20–42:26

• Piggie discusses the charges that led to his downfall (wire fraud, etc.), reflecting that “so much of this stuff...is not even an issue anymore.”
• “The NCAA, man, they figured I was getting too big, and...felt like I had too much power.” (37:59)

10. Parallels with Other Scandals

Timestamps: 40:45–42:26

• Matt draws parallels to the Reggie Bush/USC situation, discussing how institutions selectively enforce rules and scapegoat certain figures.

11. On Loyalty and Influence

Timestamps: 43:00–46:18

• Piggie describes the deep relationships with athletes, acting as a father figure and guiding their college and professional choices.
• “My kids was my sons; I treated my kids like I treated my son.” (32:44)

12. The Impact of NIL and the Irony of Change

Timestamps: 46:55–48:28

• Piggie reacts to modern NIL reforms: “Now it’s important that the kids get what they got coming. But in my era...they would have been millionaires before they even touched the campus.” (46:55)
• He notes how LaVar Ball’s business moves paved the way for further change.

13. Advice for Young Athletes and Parents

Timestamps: 51:22–55:21

• Piggie’s guidance: Focus on hard work, skill development, and patience. Warns parents not to chase the first offer, or try to live through their kids.
• “You can’t make a kid have heart. You can’t pay money and say, ‘this kid going to get heart;’ either that kid want it or he don’t want it.” (54:13)

14. On Restitution, Regret, and the Call for Pardon

Timestamps: 56:03–58:38

• Piggie affirms he’s still burdened by restitution—calling it “a life sentence”—and welcomes efforts to secure a pardon given changed laws.
• “If God’s will and a pardon come, we’ll be grateful. I don’t sit up here...God’s in control of my life.” (56:59)

15. Mike Watson’s Perspective (Book Co-Author)

Timestamps: 58:56–60:18

• Mike Watson describes the mutual loyalty and importance of sharing Piggie’s true story, stating, “I wanted to get the story out there to tell the truth.”

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Notable Quotes and Memorable Moments

• Myron Piggie [14:02]: “When they smashed us by 50, that’s when I had to regroup, man. I got to go out and recruit some players to play against these big boys.”
• Jerry Ferrara [05:27]: “It’s like you kind of went to jail for a lot of things that are now very, very legal. And that’s got to be a frustrating thing...”
• Matt Leinart [12:18]: “The talent only gets you so far, man. It’s like the mental part. It’s the grind. It’s all the other little things...”
• Piggie [20:10]: “It wasn’t about paying kids. It was about just helping kids...I was just trying to help kids to get out of the hood because I used to dominate the hood, and I knew what the hood was.”
• Piggie [26:16]: “If you bring your kids to ABCD camp, you’ll walk out of New Jersey with a million dollars in cash.” (on being offered $1M by Sonny Vaccaro’s camp)
• Piggie [28:43]: “I’m new in the game...I’m up here trying to be loyal...but, I mean, he actually got on his knees crying and begged me.”
• Piggie [37:59]: “The NCAA...figured I was getting too big...I always told my kids, don’t take a piece of bubble gum from nobody.”
• Piggie [46:55]: “Now it’s important that the kids get what they got coming. But in my era...they would have been millionaires, man, before they even touched the campus.”
• Piggie [54:13]: “You can’t pay for a kid for heart...A kid either born with it or want it.”
• Mike Watson [59:54]: "I wanted to get the story out there to tell the truth...to make sure his story was told."

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• 13:00 – Myron Piggie joins the show
• 14:02 – Losing to NY Riverside and starting aggressive recruiting
• 17:22 – Differences between old and modern AAU
• 20:10 – The real reasons Piggie supported his players financially
• 23:39 – Piggie recalls being courted by shoe companies and making a fateful choice
• 26:16 – Sonny Vaccaro’s $1M ABCD Camp offer and decision to stay loyal to Nike
• 37:59 – The NCAA targets Piggie; accusations and culture shift
• 46:55 – Piggie’s view on NIL: “I would have been rich.”
• 51:22 – Advice to young athletes and parents in the NIL era
• 56:03 – Discussing the possibility of a formal pardon

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Episode Flow and Tone

The episode oscillates between nostalgia, humor, hard truths, and deeply personal reflections. Piggie is candid and blunt, but the tone is one of pride and a touch of heartbreak. Matt and Jerry are empathetic, frequently in awe, and sometimes incredulous at the magnitude of Piggie’s story.

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Conclusion

This wide-reaching episode unpacks the complicated legacy of Myron Piggie—a man hailed as a basketball kingmaker and vilified for supporting his players in ways that have since become mainstream. The hosts and their guest make clear that the modern landscape of youth and college sports, with NIL reform and more open compensation, stands squarely on the history Piggie helped write, for better or worse.

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For Further Listening or Reading

• Book: The Hustler That Changed the Game by Myron Piggie & Mike Watson
• Kansas City Star feature by Toriano Porter

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Transcript

[A]

And I got a call from some people and they was like, man, we're never ever. We're never ever. If you take this out loud, we gonna deny it. If you bring your kids to ABCD camp, you'll walk out of New Jersey with a million dollars in cash.

[B]

All right, welcome to another episode of Throwbacks. Don't forget to go give us a like a Follow. Subscribe on YouTube. It's free, so don't be afraid to hit that button. Maddie, Ice, how we doing today? You're. You got a tremendous week going on.

[C]

I'm living. I'm living every husband, father's dream. Oh, yeah. I'm home alone, dude. I've been home alone since Saturday night. Yeah, it's.

[B]

It's glorious.

[C]

I miss my kids. I miss my wife. They're in Orlando for Thanksgiving week. Big family reunion. Doing it right. Obviously, I can't go because I have work and all these things, but, man, it's like, I'm not sure there's anything better, dude. I'm not sure there's anything better than a house that is silent.

[B]

I think that's the one thing I would ask for. I hope my wife birthday or Christmas would be. Well, it's not. Look, it's not so much that, like, you're doing cra. It's just. You're right. It's the silence. It's the peace and quiet.

[C]

It's just peace and quiet, dude. I mean, it's just. It's just literally waking up. And by the way, I. Every morning, I. I haven't slept in. Like, I don't sleep in anymore, so that's fine. But it's just waking up, making my coffee. I'm not in a rush to do anything to get the kids going. Obviously, Josie does a lot, but I like. Like, mornings are chaotic, as you know, like, you got two boys. Like, it's just chaotic. There's a lot going on. There's like, yeah, like, get your. We got a time to brush your teeth. We got to take. You know, like, there's just no. There's no rest. That is the greatest part. Like, I could. I've worked out multiple times a day. I've saunaed it up multiple times a day.

[B]

You mentioned Orlando, and you sent chills through my spine because I just got back. You're still recovering world, and I need what you have. I need like seven days, a little six days alone to recover.

[C]

Well, what you did is just. Just dad of the year stuff. I mean, it's just legendary stuff to go to Walt Disney World for a week.

[B]

Well, I posted that picture of me napping at the bippity boppity thing where they made my kids into knights or whatever. And the girls and I put it out and I got a lot. I got a lot of views to the point where like the next day at one of the parks, I had dads coming up to go, keep it going, man. Like, they were cheering me on. Like Rocky training in Philadelphia.

[C]

That was one of the funniest posts I've ever seen. I was like, oh, dude, Jerry is in bad, right?

[B]

And that wasn't a setup. I was sound asleep. Might have even been snoring. I was out cold.

[C]

Yeah, I mean, good for you. Hey, listen, also, big week. We just celebrated your birthday.

[B]

Yeah, I just turned 46.

[C]

You were on the back half to 50, bro.

[B]

It's one of those things too. Like, do you know how I know I'm old? Do you know when you go book a flight and you got to scroll down to the year you were born? I used to be like two scrolls, maybe two and a half. Now I'm like, scroll.

[C]

You just, you just go one big one and it just rolls.

[B]

Oh, my God. I'm still not at 1979 yet. This is crazy. That's how I know I'm old.

[C]

You're a 70s dude.

[B]

November 79. So I saw the last month and a half of the. Of the 70s. So I guess technically.

[C]

Listen, you. You don't look a day over 40. You got a great family, you live a young life, you golf. It's good, bro. You're living the dream. You're living the dream.

[B]

Well, I appreciate that we have an interesting show for you now because speaking of, you know.

[A]

Yeah, we do.

[B]

46 years old, grew up in the 80s and then obviously the 90s were where I really started, like watching and loving sports, all sports and playing sports. You a little bit younger, but similar. We have someone that in the 90s, early 2000s is. I guess you would say he's self proclaimed, but I think we could all proclaim him the godfather of aau. Myron Piggy.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

What does that name mean to you, Matt? Have you ever heard that name before? We're having him on the show today.

[C]

I heard the name. The answer is yes. What I. Could I tell you a detailed, you know, version of like, who he. No, I've been around the AAU game enough. Playing when I was younger with like the Pump brothers, who everyone knows, and Pat Barrett, who's a local, like, who's A legend in the AU game back in the day and, and then obviously with Cole and just said experience. But really fascinating story about Myron Piggy who ended up going to jail for, for this kind of changed the game, you know, and what. And his upbringing was crazy.

[B]

I'm excited for Kansas City.

[C]

Yeah, I'm excited for people to hear this story. He's got a book out, you know, we're going to talk about and, and, and now with like nil and you know, athletes being able to get paid for all of these things. It's just a fascinating like back then to now and the shift and all of this. And he was really like you said, like the godfather of AU basketball and helping kids and all this. And I'm, I'm, I'm excited to kind of hear his story, you know.

[B]

Yeah. The name of the book is the Hustler that Changed the Game. Myron Piggy co wrote it. And look, I remember crumming up in New York. I mean AAU basketball. New York City is.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

One of the meccas. I mean, I'm sure even LA too, obviously has had unbelievable players. I, you know, everyone from Stefan Marbury, Kenny Anderson, like all these guys, like the Gauchos were really the team in New York. I think they're still going on that they were essentially high school NBA teams. So to hear Myon's story. And also like you mentioned something interesting. I, I want to respectfully ask him. It's like you kind of went to jail for a lot of things that are now very, very legal. And that's got to be a frustrating thing because you, and when you even start to see some of the numbers, reportedly that. And we'll ask him about this. That's like he famously had the Rush brothers, Kareem Rush, Jaron Rush, some of the numbers that these guys were paid air quotes. I don't think he's ever fully said, you know, 2700 bucks, 200 bucks, 1200 bucks. And somehow he got connected to wire fraud, mail fraud. We're gonna actually ask him what he officially went away for because it's kind of murky. I think it was one thing to get out of another. But anyway, excited to talk to him. I mean, his story, they'll probably make his story into a movie one day. I'm like halfway through the book for sure.

[D]

Yeah.

[B]

So I don't want to get too many spoilers for him, but the book is outstanding. It's definitely one of those things that might be turned into a, a movie or a doc like you said. And yeah, I'm excited. So don't forget to. Right after Myon we have Annie Agar joining us. We'll do some more twisted trivia. Maybe Matt will go easy on me for my birthday week because he's been, you know, like the kids say. I've heard like several like 18 year old athletes say no six of but like belt to ass.

[C]

Oh, belt to ass is a new one.

[B]

My nephew hit me with that with mad. We're going to play mad and he sent me a belt emoji. I'm like belt to ass.

[C]

I'm like, I've see, I've see. Yeah, that's like, that's not necessarily like a new one, but it is the.

[B]

Way they specifically say.

[C]

More people say yeah, yeah.

[B]

So hopefully you won't go belt to ass on me.

[C]

I'll keep it easy on you.

[B]

All right. And before we bring on Myron Piggy because this is related to his story, let's do our, our Wendy's. It's not the fresh take of the week anymore. We switched it up. It's basically we're joining team tendies and we're joining a lineup like never before. Crispy, juicy Tendies now at Wendy's. So thank you for sponsoring this segment, Matt. It got me thinking since we have Myron Piggy on aa, basketball, high school sports, you've played at every single level. The highest, some of the highest levels. Me, not so much. But I've seen a lot. Who is the best, whether it's AAU or just high school in general. The best high school AAU athlete you have ever seen.

[C]

Well, I'm going to give you two answers. One, I'm just going to shout out co opied starting freshman for Arizona. He played with Cole's team a couple years back in middle school. ABC made hoops, the whole deal. Then I was like, this dude is going to be a top 10 pick in the NBA draft and he's certainly going to do that. So. So seeing him in person play with my son was awesome. The greatest high school basketball player that I ever saw in person was Shay Cotton. Shay Cotton was a 6, 5 lefty. I saw him play as a freshman. He was the same year as my brother. So those five years. So he was, you know, 16 years old. I was 10 or 11. My brother played basketball. This was modern day when modern day was a powerhouse. They won national championship with Miles Simon. They won with Regigiri. Those teams, they won a couple championships in the 90s. This kid was a freshman Starting on modern day, averaging like 25 a game, which was unheard of. It was, modern day was like Duke, right? Like everyone averaged 12 points and no one ever like, you know what I mean? They were so many good players. I mean the stroke he would take off from like mid free, like mid key dunk on people. He was the greatest. And I would just finish this by saying, I think there's, there's pods out there where like Paul Pierce and all the local, like Paul Pierce went to Inglewood. Like Tyson Chandler. All of the local kind of LA legends would say the same thing. They're like, bro, Shea Cotton was just different. He was a beast. And I think he ended up going like to like, I think he transferred out of modern day, ended up going to like Long Beach State to play with his brother for a period of time and just never, I don't like, never made it. And it was one of those things like, man, like he was the greatest, one of the greatest athletes I'd ever seen in person.

[B]

Well, that's something you always talk about, that stays with me is you know, all these guys are great. And then you look at a guy like Shay Cotton who at the time, you think this guy's a shoe in for the NBA. It just doesn't happen. And it's not for a lack of talent. You cannot say Shane Cotton.

[C]

So many other factors.

[B]

Yeah, so many other factors. And that's going to kind of coincide with mine because, well, my, my honorable mention, I, I saw him in high school, not aau and I got a close look at him because our school was rival, our were rivals were Stephon Marbury. It was so clear that this guy is way better. And my school was really good and his school was really good. He was significantly the best player on the court. Similar to like LeBron's, right? They had to start putting Marbury's games at MSG. That's how many people were trying to come see his games. They moved them to frickin Madison Square Garden. But my number one, the best player I've ever seen and I saw him on the AAU side to Nazi's high school games. Felipe Lopez and youngsters out there. If you don't know who Felipe Lopez is, go do a little Google YouTube deep dive. So I went to a gaucho's famous AAU team that I'm sure Myron Piggy knows well about. I went to a Gaucho's practice one time, I was a little younger and they laid out like I think 20 balls in different spots all over the court, like the elbow, the three point line, the corner. And they were doing this drill and Felipe Lopez was running up and back, grabbing each ball, shooting it, and the dude went 20 for 20. He had every shot of every ball that was placed on that court. And he, you know, local story, Dominican kid from New York.

[C]

So he to St. John's right?

[B]

Then he went on to. He played at Rice university, went to St. John's he stayed home essentially, you know, Bronx, Queens. He stayed home, went to. And it good. St. John's career just didn't. His game didn't translate to college and he got drafted. He played in the NBA for quite a while, but you just wouldn't. He was up there with LeBron in the sense of a high school athlete at that.

[C]

Well, so it like out there too, like Sebastian Telfair was the other one, right? New York kid.

[B]

Marbury's cousin. Marbury's cousin.

[C]

I'll tell you what, I had a. I had a conversation with Luke Walton once, who was, you know, on our pod last year and a good friend. And I played. I remember playing him in the rec league, like a, like a really competitive rec league. And he was getting 30 a game. It wasn't even close. And like playing against like couple drew league players, right? And he goes, matt, the difference between like, like he said, the NBA and it's like football too. It's hard, but like the talent only gets you so far, man. It's like the mental part. It's the, it's the grind. It's all the other little things that you have to do. Because I'm sitting there watching this kid. I'm like, God, this kid is good. And he's like, yeah, dude. But he's like, there's a million of those kids. They just won't make it because they don't have the mental that they can't. Like, there's just something missing, you know, and you see that. It's unfortunate, but I was like, damn, dude. Like, basketball's got to be another level.

[B]

Wow. Shout outs to Wendy's. We were officially on Team Tendies. And let's say Cotton man sees this.

[C]

I want to know what Shay Cotton's doing now.

[B]

I wonder if Myra Piggy knows that. Must know.

[C]

Oh, I'm asking. I would ask him. I've guaranteed that's the 90s. Shay was the man on the circuit.

[B]

Let's bring on the godfather of aau.

[C]

Hey, we're so. We'll get. We're. We're happy to to do this, man, and just shoot the shit, tell your story, Anything you want to get it, just go and.

[A]

And.

[C]

Yeah, man, we appreciate you coming on.

[A]

Thank you, man. I'm open book.

[C]

Yeah, no, I know.

[A]

I'm open book. I just, you know, it's just a blessing, you know, to be able to really kind of, you know, get, you know, get this story out. You know, we very, very pleased to be on your show. And, yeah, I. I mean.

[D]

When we.

[A]

Came along, it was New York. Riverside had the best powerhouse team at that time, and that was Ronnie Ortiz, Elton Brand, Lamar Oden, Jesse. And them boys was monsters, man. And they just. We brought them in Kansas City for a tournament, and them dudes smashed us by 50.

[B]

And your team was no joke, I'm guessing.

[A]

No, but our team was younger, but they still were no joke. But they smashed us on our home court by 50. And when I. When I. When they smashed us by 50, that's when I had to. I had to regroup, man. I'm like, man, I got to go out here and recruit some players to play against these big boys. And that's what we did. We start. That's when I started going out recruiting. But New Rock Riverside was the powerhouse then.

[C]

205 in three years. Was that your record?

[B]

Two hundred and five.

[C]

Dang.

[B]

And one of those five is the artest game, I'm guessing.

[A]

Yes, that was the first. That was the first whooping we got.

[B]

So. All right, so you get beat down by Artest, and then you're going to start recruiting? That's why I want to ask. I'm halfway through the book, obviously, but I know a lot of the story because I knew about it before the book, and the book is unbelievable. Congrats to both of you, and we're going to talk about it, but when you make that decision. Okay, I'm going to go start recruiting now. This is. There's no social media. There's no YouTube. There's nothing. Like, you can't just sit in your home and scroll through. You have to get out. And, like, how are you finding players? Obviously, there's word of mouth, but you got to go beat our test in Elton Brand. You got to widen the search a little bit.

[A]

Yeah, well, what we did was we got on. We got. We. We do. It was a little Internet. And, you know, like, back then you had guys that had. They had them. What you call them, the recruiting services. So you go on the recruiting services and see who was the top players. So what we did was we had an unlimited budget. So we would go up there and if I needed a big man, what I would do is I would go out here and see the top big man in the country. So what I'd do is I would fly out there and see if they was available. If they was available, I would bring them in for practice over the weekend and then I would test them in the tournament. And if they wasn't good in that tournament, then we would just. No, we can't do this.

[B]

So that's like a tryout, essentially.

[A]

It was like a tryout because playing against them boys was. Man, it was crazy. But one thing I have to say I did was able to put a team together, and we played New York Riverside two weeks later in university in Washington, D.C. and we end up beating him by seven. So we turned that thing around real quick.

[B]

That's real quick. To go from losing by 50 to winning by seven.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I went out and got some. I went out and got some players, man.

[C]

You know, I would. I'd be curious, Myron, of. Of then, you know, that time in your life as a, you, you know, the Godfather and putting these teams together. And, and I, we were just talking before this, like, I've experience with my oldest son, Cole. He's going to be at SMU next year playing football, but he was a big Hooper, like, did the whole. All the circuits that you were a part of and all that. And I, I used to see kids, like, the recruiting process. I used to see kids like, play for one team and go play for another team in the same tournament and go play for a third team in the same tournament. I'm like, what the is going on? Like, this is wild. It is. It. What. What was the biggest difference? Because I'm sure you still follow the AU and you still know a lot of these kids. Like, what was the biggest difference back then as opposed to now, you think?

[A]

Well, back then was. Was more. It was different because it wasn't no Nike teams playing in Nike tournaments, Adidas teams playing Adidas tournament, Reebok teams playing Reebok tournament. It was. It was that everybody played everybody. You know what I'm saying? So the difference was too, where it wasn't no parents involved a lot interesting, you know, so where it's parents now involved because parents are paying kids to train their kids.

[C]

Yep.

[A]

So now they spending money. So now parents got a mouthpiece. Back then, parents wasn't not. We was not. Parents were not paying to be in that space. So, like, I never had parents come in my gym, I would have my parents to drop my kids off, which.

[C]

Is how it should be. Yeah.

[A]

And if you ever came to me about playing time, then you take your kids and go somewhere else. Right. It was about putting a system together and the kids learn how to play basketball then. Now kids is looking at. When the parents don't, when the kids ain't playing, the parents going in and talk to the coaches. The system is a whole different system now. And when I travel, my parents didn't travel with me, we travel, you know, they put their kids in my hands.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

And it was my responsibility to teach them kids as young men how to be, you know, try to get them to be men. But the whole system today is Nike's playing Nike, Adidas playing Adidas. Reebok's playing Reebok. I don't even know if it's Reebok now. But everybody, the parents got to say so now where back then the kids, that's what made the kids tougher and stronger when the parents wasn't involved. And I'm not knocking the parents, you.

[C]

Can, because I'm one of those. And I tell them, I said, dude, I love, like, I wish we had more of you in today's world because it's such a different thing. And I want to, like, your story is remarkable because I, I just, I've been in that world, I've just seen a lot of stuff. And you talked about the kids and you obviously left such a positive imprint on all of the kids that came across your program because there's quotes out there, all these players saying like, what you were able to do for them, this book, the Hustler that changed the game and your experience. And we're going to dive into this story. Why for you, is it important to kind of get this out now and tell this story? Like, what do you want to accomplish telling this story, Myron?

[A]

Well, what I wanted to accomplish was in this story was that back then when I was involved in aau, it was different because we used to travel and be in five story hotels. I mean, we traveled, we had the best everything. But when the kids came home, them kids went back to the ghetto, to the hood. Them kids didn't have gas in their houses, they didn't have lights on, they didn't even have food to eat, you know what I'm saying? So my job was, I'm not going to put you out there and you're going to travel and you're going to live big for three days, Friday, Saturday and Sunday, then you come back home, then you got to get up there and you don't know if your next meal. I couldn't do that. So that was my job as a coach. And I basically was kind of like a dad to make sure when they went home, they was able to have lights, gas, and food. And it wasn't about paying kids. It was about just helping kids that wasn't able to go home. Like me and my son, when we left, I go home, I got everything. They didn't have nothing. So it was important for me to get this story out where they was like, oh, he was paying kids to play basketball. No, I wasn't paying kids to play basketball. I was just trying to help kids to get out of the hood because I used to dominate the hood, and I knew what the hood was. And a lot of them, kids weren't built to be in the hood because they couldn't survive it.

[B]

Also, too. I imagine, like, I guess the question is too. So where were you at when you kind of made that decision? You talked about, like, you lose to our test and all that, but you were already in the AAU space. Where were you at when you made that switch in your life into AAU basketball? What was that turning point for you?

[A]

You know, I'll just be honest. I really never made a full switch. I was still dipping and diving in the streets, right? But I had a son. My son was in that. In that area with Geron Rush and Corleone Young and Corey McGetty and Mike Miller. So what I was doing was the AAU team was really dropped in my lap because I was a parent and I went to a game and the guy who used to coach him, the sponsor fell out with him. So we didn't have a coach. And then the parent was like, well, let Myron coach. And then when I got. When he got dropped in my lap, my hope I was going to put my program, like, my demeanor on the streets. If I'm a top on the streets, I got to be top in the. In this field, too. So that's. That's how I was thinking, you know, so.

[B]

Yeah, no, I was saying, you mentioned earlier, you talk about Nike plays Nike. Reebok plays Reebok. Something that's in the book and you talk about a little bit is you yourself found yourself being courted at one point, right, by Nike and Adidas and getting pitched. And, you know, I know there's mentions of, like, Sonny Vacaro and all that. I'm. I'm fascinated with that. With that era, because I don't think we'll really ever see it like that again. Tell us a little bit about that time in your life where you have all these shoe companies wanting to be involved. And I think you said publicly you regret signing with Nike over Sonny Vacaro. Is that true? Did I get that right?

[A]

That. That. That's. That's a true story. When I took over, I had took over. It was later that AAU season. The first year I took over, it was in the end of the year. So the next year it started. Then I started getting calls From Jim Harris Jr. And Sonny Vacurl and George Raveling. So Nike star, you know, they wanted us to wear their gear. And then all of a sudden, when I started talking to him, I used to go home and I had boxes and boxes of gear on my porch and in my yard. Now, think I'm living in the hood now and I'm coming home with all these boxes in my yard. Now, if I was somebody else, them guys would have took them boxes out of that yard, right?

[B]

If they weren't taking it out of your yard.

[C]

No.

[A]

Yeah, but they weren't gonna do that. It just. That wasn't happening. So I had a conversation with. No, I was. Caught it real heavy. I was courted. They was. They offered me. They offered me so much. And as. As of the day, I sent Sonny McCurl scriptures every morning. And he respond back to me every day. Amen. We still talk.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

But it came down to. I had told Jim Harris Jr. Cause he was at Reebok. I was like, you know, and I always ask the kids, I was like, what do y' all want to wear? So, you know, kids don't want Nike.

[C]

Of course they don't want Reebok, that's for sure.

[A]

So it was funny. They were like, coach, we aware this when we get playing ball in the gym, but we not wearing this on the circuit.

[C]

That's so true.

[A]

It came down to Sonny and Ravlin, and Sonny was never in the conversation, but he had people. And it was beginning to be Nike camp. And at ABCD camp. And I got a call from some people, and they were from Sonny's camp. And they was like, man, we'll never ever. We'll never ever. If you take this out loud, we're going to deny it, you know. And he was like, if you bring your kids to ABCD camp, you'll walk out of New Jersey with a million dollars in cash.

[B]

What year is this? This is 90s, right?

[A]

Yes, in the 90s. And damn, the next day, Raveling called me and flew me out to Indianapolis. That's where Nike camp was. And we sit there and we talk. We talk. True story. He sit down and he start saying, piggy, this is my first year coming to Nike. I need to put Nike back on the map. If you help me out, man, you. We'll take care of you and everything. And this guy got on his knees and cried. Now, I'm not prejudiced, but to see a black man like that getting on his knees, crying, knowing that he needs you. I turned a million dollars down to go to Nike to help him out. And that was one of the worst decisions I ever made because Sonny was always loyal to his people. Raveling. What? And at the end of the day, my kids wanted to wear Jumpman. And it was just us. And Riverside was wearing Jumpman at that time. So they gave me all the gear that I wanted, travel anytime I wanted to travel. They gave me everything that I needed. And I decided to go with Rad then Sonny. And I'm gonna tell you how good Sonny is today. Me and Sonny still talk today. And he don't never hold that against me. But that hurt me, man, because I thought Rabbin was gonna be loyal to me. Rest his soul, rest in peace. But he wasn't. He wasn't loyal to me.

[C]

Is that one of you think that's one of the. I think you've been quoted so you don't have a lot of regret On. On how? Like, is that one of the biggest regrets.

[A]

In aau? That was the biggest regret. Yeah, that was my biggest regret.

[C]

Just because. Just because. I mean, kind of laid it out. Just because you thought George was a certain way, it was going to be this way, or was it? I. I'm assuming. I mean, a million dollars is a lot of money back then, and that could do a lot of things. But is it because you. I mean, you just maybe had blinders on? You didn't see it?

[A]

I didn't see it. I didn't. I'm new in the game.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

I'm new in the game. I'm up here trying to be loyal to my. And again, I'm not prejudiced, but I see a black man trying to raise something, that black educated man trying to do something. And when you get on your. And you start crying and, I mean, he actually got on his knees crying and begged me.

[B]

Yeah, it's hard to. It's hard not to. It's hard to turn that down, you know?

[A]

Then he's like, I give all your kids all the gear you want. You know, I give you $50,000 a year. Soon you bring the kids. Nike flew in, gave me a $50,000 check every year. Every summer, they gave me a $50,000 check. And then I had all the gear I want, all the kids. Never, ever. I had enough gear to close 20 organizations in Kansas City.

[B]

And it was being safely stored in your yard because nobody was going to touch it.

[A]

No, but it was. Nobody going to touch it.

[B]

Nobody's going to touch it.

[A]

Nobody going to touch it. And it came to the point where I would come home and my wife was like, man, what is. She got mad because we looked like we was in a junkyard or something.

[B]

You opened up a store.

[A]

Yes. But I regretted that because you never heard nothing bad about Sonny taking care of his people. And then even me and the punk brothers had got together. And we talked about back then, and I was thinking about really doing it. But, Rav. My biggest regret was with Rad was my kids was important to me. And I had the number one, number two, and number three kid in the country at that time. Rad was telling me that, and Tracy McGrady had just came out. So Nike didn't have no high school kid coming out at that time. Then they was like, well, Corleigh Young gonna come out of high school? So I transferred Corey Young out of Wichita east, and I put him in Hargreave Military Academy, and him and my son went there. So my understanding was that Corey Young was gonna be Nike's number one guy, and they was gonna give me a three or four million dollars endorsement, and he was gonna be okay. But to come to find out that that rat was just blowing smoke on my ass.

[B]

So one thing I wanted.

[A]

Corleone, right. Could have went to college.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

And Young was more suited to go to college than Geron Rush. Cause Geron Rush should have been the one that came out. And that's a whole different story of him not come.

[B]

Of him going to college instead of coming out.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And you might. So that's the other thing. It's like you're not just simply coaching kids on the court. Right. You mentioned what you're doing behind closed doors, trying to make sure that kids have stuff to come home to. But also, you're. You're. And Matt and I were talking about this off the air. It's like the level of skill with some of the kids that you're coaching. You know, their lives are being decided. Some of these Kids do have pro ability. So you haven't. You're having those conversations with these guys about college or at the time going pro. And how much did these young kids kind of rely on you Because I feel like you still talk to Sunny. We even mentioned Shay Cotton hit you up not that long ago. I feel like your loyalty is why. And people are still talking to you to this. So it all connects.

[A]

My kids was like my sons, like they was my son. I treated my kids like I treated my son. Me and Ja' N Corlee Young, we still had the best relationship ever. You know, it was important to me. I wasn't gonna make the decision for the kid. I was gonna put the kid in the position to go where he wanted to go. Because it wasn't me that had to live on the college campus. Right? It was gonna be them. I had all the offers from big time coaches. I could have took assistant coach's job. And honestly, if my kids would've went to ku, I would have been a millionaire today. And by not them kids, not one of them kids touched ku. That's when the target got on my back.

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[B]

Offer well, that's the other thing too. While you know and I'm reading the book and obviously knowing that you're coming on. I. I still don't quite understand everything that you. And I'm like, air quoting, like, got in trouble and. And went away for, because. And now you see, like, so much of this stuff nowadays is. And we'll talk about that in a minute. Is. Is not even an issue anymore. You know, I guess I didn't even really follow the connection of, you know, stuff with players being the thing that you got into trouble for, you know? Seems very convoluted. It seems very convoluted.

[A]

The ncaa, man, they. They figured I was getting too big, and they figured out they feel like I had too much power. And when the NCAA seen that, and then I had a history, a street history, so it's easy to target someone like me, you know, but my kids. My kids was my kids. They was my sons. I always told my kids, don't take a piece of bubble gum from nobody.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Because that's how much them kids meant to me, you know, and my kids never, ever took a piece of bubblegum to nobody. And then all of a sudden, it came out to that I was putting $17,000 in a shoebox, giving Ja'ron 17,000, giving Corleone this and giving Corleone that. I was just taking care of my kids, like on the weekends when they wanted to go to a dance or a prom, whatever, 15, $20, that's all them kids couldn't handle that kind of money. But when they came after me, I couldn't fight it because of my history.

[D]

Right.

[C]

It's interesting because there's all these quotes like, you were kind of the scapegoat, right, for ncaa, and they came after you and singled you out. And, you know, I lived that with Reggie, with Reggie Bush and usc. I'm sure you're familiar with that whole deal. And I remember, you know, at the time, we were, you know, we were on top of the world. We're dynasty and all these things. And people were sniff around and. And, you know, Reggie has a story and all those things, and I love it's my boy. I always support him. But I remember kind of like SC kind of sticking their nose up to the NCAA and saying, like, you know, you guys. You guys can't come after us, blah, blah, blah. And they were like, oh, yeah, well, we will. And. And to this point, and it's just. I just feel like there's a lot of parallels with YouTube. Just, like, to this point, I'm just like, man, like, whatever Reggie did or didn't do, like the heisman all of these things. It was complete when a lot of kids, a lot of people were just kind of like, like kind of trying to survive and all this. But like you just said, you know, don't take a piece of bubblegum, man. I remember all the time, like I couldn't. You couldn't go out to lunch with someone unless you knew him. Like prior to high school, like, there was this like year, like relationship thing. I, I just found it interesting. There's a lot of parallels with like, Reggie was a scapegoat for the NCAA at the time. They, they made him an example, which I thought was just highly unfair. Similar to your situation.

[A]

Yeah, it. And, and I agree with that because Reggie didn't do nothing that nobody else did. But at the end of the day, I didn't either. It was just about me in Kansas City taking care of my kids, trying to make sure that when I go home and lay my head down on a soft pillow, I wanted my kids to be able to have the same comfort. And the kids were so important to me. It got to the point where college coaches used to come in town, big name coaches, they could stay at a five star hotel and would sleep on my couch. I mean, would sleep on my couch. They would come to my home in the hood and sleep on my couch and hang out with me.

[C]

I mean, that's the impact you had. Yeah, yeah.

[A]

You know, but nobody, NCAA didn't say that was illegal, you know. Yeah, I had. And I'm gonna say this, and I don't care what he say. I had Roy Williams, people would call me and say, hey, I'm gonna be on the plaza. Is it okay if Jaron, you and Jaron walked by? Okay, yeah, we walked by. We did that. I used to take Geron Rush up to KU every day for three times a week to play against Paul Pierce and Jacques Von In. Was that illegal? The NCAA didn't say nothing about that because it was Roy.

[B]

Different rules for different people, right? In that scenario.

[A]

Different rules, different people. Different rules for different people. I mean, I had a chance. I mean, I walked to the airport one time and a guy came up and gave me $30,000 cash and said, don't look into it until you go home. This is for you.

[B]

And you've never seen this guy before?

[A]

Not ever. But then I know I found out who he was.

[B]

Who he was like bagman, right?

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

And man, it come close to your home.

[C]

I mean, shit, you could tell me.

[D]

I mean, I was.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. Because it done be real. You know, George, Reverend was a USC guy. Yeah. Jerome Stanley was a USC guy. You know Jerome Stanley, right?

[C]

Yeah, Well, I mean, he.

[A]

Sean Johnson's agent.

[C]

Oh, yeah. Well, Tim, Tim. Tim Floyd got in trouble at usc.

[A]

Me and Tim Floyd had a bad, bad breakup, man.

[D]

Did you?

[C]

Oh, I. I had nothing but a positive experience with him because I was there for a couple years with like Nick Young and kind of like that, like that era. And then he got out.

[A]

But yeah, he called me one night and said, if Earl Watson don't. I think he was at Ohio State. Earl Watson don't sign with me. Earl Watson ain't gonna be nobody. I was like, what the hell you mean he ain't gonna be nobody? He needed to sign with me right now. And then we kind of fell out. So Earl didn't go to Iowa State. When he went.

[C]

I. I've said this story is. I remember when I was. I don't, I don't think I've ever told you this, Jerry. So like, I remember. I think I was done. So like technically I didn't do anything wrong. But like we were SC. I think it was. Tim, we're recruiting O.J. mayo.

[A]

O.J. mail.

[C]

O.J. mayo was the star. Yeah, he was a star. And I'll never forget, I was. I was on a. I think I was done. So I was getting ready to combine. This was like maybe January, February, whatever. And he was on like a little recruiting trip and I was in a golf cart with him. I think it was his dad and someone else and they had asked me like, hey, we, like, we want this kid. And I don't know what other happened outside of that other than I was on the golf cart and I said, I said, bro, like, you're one and done. You know, you're going to be one and done. Come here, you're in la, you're going to get whatever the hell you need. And the conversation kind of went like that. I was on a golf cart showing him around campus and all this. And he signed like a month later, he's one and done and he left, man. Yeah, that was my only recruiting story that I had to help USC basketball. But that was. Floyd was there.

[A]

Yeah, Tim, Floyd, you know, he did what he had to do. But like I said, only regret I had with the shoe company was they misled me on Corleone. And when they misled me on Corleone, that messed up that kid's life. And my whole intention was never to mess up none of my kids future. And when Quella Young got drafted. I had to fire Jerome Stanley. Then I had to hire the Poston Brothers, which at that time, they had Penny Hardaway, and he was the hottest thing in the NBA. Little Penny. And just thank God that the Postman Brothers had a relationship with the Detroit Pistons. And that's why. That's how Corleone ended up getting drafted.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And then when I got. When I got. When that indictment came down, Corleone and Geron didn't have. No, they didn't have. That foundation was gone. So they didn't have nobody that they. That could put that iron fist on them and tell them, you need to go to class, you need to get in the gym or whatever. And that's what hurt them.

[B]

So what's it like for you now when you see Nil? And I ask Matt all the time, like, because I think a lot of people ask former players, like, I'm sure, Matt, you've been asked a million times, how much money would you have made? Reggie Bush, how much? My millions. Right. But I don't know if anyone's asked someone like you in that, you know, because again, you were about guiding. And now it's, you know, we're seeing college athletes in commercials and ads everywhere, and everyone's making a lot of money. How does just. What's your view on it today when you look at the landscape?

[A]

You know, I'm glad that it's like that because by me getting hit back then and they changed all the AA rules, calling the Piggy rules and stuff, now it's important that the kids get what they got coming. But in my era, ja', Ron, Corey McGetty, Earl Watson, Earl and Corleone Young, they would have been millionaires, man, before they even touched the campus. Yeah. You know, and it's this Nil, man, it just blew it away. But by me had to go through what I had to go through, they didn't realize something. That Lamar Ball changed a lot of stuff. That's when kids started getting paid.

[B]

That's a great point. That's a great point.

[C]

Everyone thought he was crazy, but he.

[A]

Yeah, but they wouldn't mess with him. Yeah. You know what I'm saying? They was able to do me because of my criminal history and who I was. But the NIL now, man, it's just, wow. I would have been rich, man. I would have been rich. Me and you wouldn't even be talking today. We'd be talking in a restaurant when I run by, hey, man, how you doing?

[C]

Hey, you and me both, man. We'd be having a steak dinner with some nice, nice wine or tequila.

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[C]

What what would be. You know, you. You've obviously God you. You've seen it all. You. I mean going back to to the 90s and now, what would be the best advice that you would Give these young, young men and women, you know, all these young millionaires. Yeah, young, young millionaires. I, I, I'm actually curious, Piggy, because my son is, is kind of entering the nil world with the rev share model now and they're getting paid and all of these things. What would be the best advice that you would give? And now that parents are way more involved now as opposed to then to these young kids.

[A]

Well, one thing I will always tell them that they still have to continue to get in the gym and work out because you don't have high school kids coming out going to division one. Now. Sometimes high school kids gotta go to junior college. Now that's division one for a lot of kids because of the nil. You know what I'm saying? Where kids were going, the top kids were going to different top universities. If you look at the college rosters now in basketball, you brothers selling will find a freshman on the roster. So what you have to do is you have to continue to work hard. You have to continue to just stay focused. And then the parents gotta, the parents gotta really think about their kid. Just because somebody knock on your door and your kid had a good high school, don't take the first money that come to you. Because once you take that first money and tie your lock yourself in to these agents and all them, you're not gonna get out. And then when your kids get, when your kids don't make it, then how do you look your kid in the face and say, it's my fault? I think that kids today just need to be more patient. And I think parents today need to quit trying to live through them kids because every kid is not gonna make it and every kid's not. And every kid is not going to play college basketball. Every kid is not going to play college football. You're going to have to take a longer route now. You're going to have to go through junior college and then you still might have to, then you might have to go to another college before you can get to the big colleges.

[C]

Piggy, I want to, before we'll wrap this up in a couple minutes, I want to ask you this. I was actually asking Jerry this was telling Jerry this. And I'm curious your take. What separates. Because you, I mean elite athletes, basketball players are some of the most elite athletes in the world. What separates someone from making it and not in your opinion? Because, because we all know talent can only get so far. But you've seen it and it's, there's such a, a, a razor Sharp line between, hey, he was great, but he just didn't make it.

[A]

What separate that kid today is if his parents step get out of the way and let somebody that knows the.

[B]

Game.

[A]

Just train them and do like old school. When my kids came in the gym, my kids never touched a basketball sometime for two hours.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And there wasn't no parents. They weren't able to run to the parents and cry. If you really want your kids to make it, to separate it, you'll see the parents who will hand their kids over to somebody, know what they doing and get out of the way from the kid. That parents stay in the way as long as your parents in the way. And I'm not knocking parents, but I know they love their kids. But you got to make that kid today earn everything that he got and everything that he get in that gym one on one without them in there watching and without them in there critiquing. Because if it's in their heart, it's going to be in their heart. You can't make a kid have heart. A kid either born with it or want it. You can't pay for a kid for heart. You can't pay money and say, this kid going to get heart even if that kid want it or he don't want it. And it's got to be up to the kid how bad he want it. Because some kids will tell their parents, I don't want you there. And that. I think that's the difference today.

[C]

Well said. Yeah.

[B]

So last thing I wanted to ask you too. I also, in addition to reading the book, I read the piece in the Kansas City Star, Toriano Porter. It's a great piece. I encourage everyone to read it too. And he said something very interesting. And I don't even know how someone would go about this. So I don't even know if it's something you have actually walked down that line. But he wrote and basically said his belief is you should receive a pardon because of how laws and rules have changed. Everything is now wide open. Is that something that you've even looked into? Is there any movement on that? Because it left me with the article saying like, yeah, he, he should get. At least look into it. Get, you know, get his day.

[A]

You know. First of all, I'll just, just take a minute. First of all, I want to thank Mike Watson.

[B]

Yes. Who wrote your book.

[D]

Yes.

[A]

Because Mike Watson. Sit down. And he played for me and my system for, you know, when he was younger. I want to thank Mike Watson because he took time and he Investigated everything. Because when we broke this book, we wanted to make sure that everything was accounted.

[B]

Factual. Yeah.

[A]

You know what I'm saying? Factual. And he did his due diligence. And if it wasn't for God putting Mike in my life to write this book, because I've been trying to get this story out for 20 something years, and it comes down to. By him writing this book and then Toyano writing that piece.

[B]

Piece was great. Yeah, both are great.

[A]

It was great. But when it comes down to.

[E]

A.

[A]

Pardon or whatever, I feel that only reason they. Only reason they was able to do that because I feel that they gave me a life sentence. And when I say a life sentence, where if you hit me with $350,000 restitution, how would I pay that unless I go back selling dope? And right now, and right now, today, if it wasn't for Mike Watson writing this book and it's out there, you know, right now, they even take my Social Security, you know what I'm saying? So if God's will and important come, we'll be grateful. We'll be grateful for it. But I don't sit up here, man. God's in control of my life, you know, I know that I didn't do nothing wrong. And at the end of the day, man, I just gotta live with who I. Who I am and what happened. It would be nice to get a point, though.

[B]

I think God put people like Michael Watson in your life though, too. So if it does happen, that's. That's definitely part.

[C]

Yeah, we're pushing. We're pushing for it, man.

[B]

Yeah. And the book is, like I said, I'm halfway through and I put it down to get the chance to talk to you, and I'm gonna dive right back in and I encourage everybody again out there. The hustler that changed the game. Go buy it. However, Listen to it, however you consume books these days because it's an unbelievable story in an unbelievable world and you're still here telling it. And I thank you for the time and I'm, you know, I just thank you for sharing your story. I think it's a very honor, man.

[A]

And me and Mike, we really grateful for y' all giving us opportunity and. Yeah, yeah, push that forward.

[B]

Is Mike still. Mike still here? Jump in for a second, Mike. Sorry we had you in for a second. We weren't set up to capture both audio.

[A]

This is my dude. I love this dude. You good, bro.

[D]

You good. It's all good.

[C]

Hey, Mike, I'd like to ask you one Thing before we hop off. What, you know, what inspired you to tell this story and just, you know, the relationship that you and Piggy have? I'd be curious.

[D]

Absolutely, man. I think what inspired me was he gave me the opportunity. He put my life on a trajectory by being able to play for his program with my big brothers. Earl Watson, Jaron Rush, you know, those are guys in Kansas City. Those are heroes and legends. And so I came up a few years after them. And so when I got to play on that national stage, it really put me there from a Division 1 level. And so what happened? We. We lived a block apart from each other and didn't know her for seven years, had lost. Lost contact with him. I went off to play pro for 12 years, and. And then I came back home to Kansas City, and we ran into each other. He was just telling me what he was doing, and I was like, man, how can I help? How can I help get the story out there? We were looking for writers to write it and everything like that. And one day we sit and he's like, mike, why don't you just try and write it?

[A]

And I'm like, bruh, that ain't no easy. You know what I mean?

[D]

But sitting there with the man, I have over 90 hours of just audience talking to him, hearing his stories, man, hearing his heart, hearing his transparency. I wanted to get the story out there to tell the truth, you know what I mean? Just like, Matt, I heard you mention Reggie. It's a lot of stuff behind the veil of college basketball, high school basketball. I wanted to make sure his story was told. So that's how I got involved, man. And it just kind of snowballed, and a year later, man, it's where we are.

[B]

Well, the book is fantastic. Matt and I were even talking off the air. It's like, this is a movie or a documentary at the very least, in addition to a great book. So we should definitely talk off the air as well, because this, again, I think this is a story that could not only, you know, it's part of the history of how we got to where we are today, but also, I think it's a good. I think it's a good point for parents and young athletes to hear this in the moment as they're going through their journey, too. So respect to you.

[D]

Absolutely. I appreciate you, Matt.

[B]

Well, respect, man. We appreciate you guys. Appreciate your boys, and we'll talk again soon. We'll get you back on here soon, and we'll keep up with you. All right. Annie Agar. Joining us courtesy of Twisted Tea. Grab a refreshing Twisted Tea today and you look in a little holiday spirit. It's Christmasy, Red, guys.

[E]

Yeah.

[C]

You got a glow to you.

[E]

Thank you. It's not from the packers game, I'll tell you that. Yeah, I'm feeling a little holidayish today. Must be things.

[B]

We're gonna run a little twisted trivia today. But real quick, guys, is there anything. What are we thankful for this NFL season? And I'll ask you, Andy, because it's definitely not the packers and the tie. Maybe you are grateful for the tie.

[E]

I am grateful for the number nine. I'll just say that Minnesota fans know all about that. Like nine. Maybe the number of interceptions. Nine is in the number of times that he held the ball way too long. It's just a great year for the number nine. I'll just leave it at that.

[C]

Is Stafford number nine?

[E]

He is, isn't he? Yeah.

[C]

So I'm, I'm grateful. Good segue for Matt Stafford and what we are witnessing with him. And I don't. And I know this narrative, but like, there's like the last of the Mohicans of kind of my age group. He's younger than me, but Roger's still playing Flacco. I think we need to take a step back and appreciate and be thankful for the career that Matt Stafford has had. I think he's going to go down as someone just said this, but he's one of the purest passers I've ever seen. I think of all time, and I think they're the favorite to win the super bowl. And it's my hometown team.

[B]

I'm thankful for Shane Bowen, even though he just got fired because you were able to get me five fourth quarter leads where I actually was like, wow, this team's not. And we still lost and held draft position. I know tanking doesn't exist in football, but boy, are the Giants doing a good impersonation act of tanking.

[E]

That might be the question. Like, would you rather have a lead and blow it or just not have the lead at all? So you're. You're taking the positive route. I'd rather have.

[B]

I'm taking the positive. Yeah. And Jamis, I mean, I'll live off that touchdown reception for a Matt. Could you have done. Could you have done that?

[C]

I mean, he broke. No, dude, are you kidding me? I didn't break any tackles in my career.

[B]

All right, last thing before we do Twisted Trivia. You know, I give you guys one insane, stupid thing that Matt rolls his Eyes at me every week. So this is that thing I'm giving you.

[E]

Okay.

[B]

I did not understand why the Bengals would want to bring back Joe Burrow in the sense of like, they're. They're out. Right. And Matt always said, like, you play because you're getting paid and I get it. But then I looked into it and they're three games back, and there actually is a Bengals path that's probably not going to happen, but it's there. The Ravens play the Bengals, as we know, coming up. So the Bengals can get that one. Ravens, go Steelers. Bengals again. Patriots. Annie, your packers and Steelers again. Steelers go Bills. Ravens need a little help from the Dolphins. Lions who will need the game. And the Ravens again. While the Bengals go Ravens. Bills. That's a tough one. Ravens, Dolphins, Cardinals, Browns. Is there a Joe Burrow. Bengals path to winning that division? They're three games back.

[E]

That would be wild. Well, yeah, that would be crazy.

[B]

I think there's a path. Weren't they.

[E]

They were close last year, right? It came down to the Chiefs. That Chiefs game.

[B]

They're doing what they do. They're gonna.

[C]

That's the same question. Do you think the Chiefs. Do you think the Chiefs are gonna make a run?

[B]

Yeah, I think that game that they stole, by the way, a full confession to you guys. And then we're gonna do the trivia. And I feel like such an. For this. We know. I gamble down 20 to nine and then Mahomes threw that red zone interception. I had a parlay with the Chiefs of the last leg that would have won me a lot of money. I took the buyout.

[E]

No.

[B]

And then they won. I took the. I took the buyout against the Chiefs.

[E]

Didn't have faith.

[B]

Who does that? I took the buyout against the Chiefs.

[E]

Unbelievable.

[B]

Let's get to some trivia. What do you got for us today, Annie?

[E]

We have a little theme here. Maybe it's the. It's the holiday vibe, but we're gonna do a little Thanksgiving theme. So we have three questions, two pictures, and you'll see how it all ties into Thanksgiving.

[B]

Let's hope.

[E]

Starting with question number one. Who had the most career receiving touchdowns in Thanksgiving games?

[B]

Calvin Johnson.

[E]

Yes. Yeah, I know. You had to assume it was something. Line.

[B]

It had to be a lion or a cowboy.

[E]

Yeah, exactly.

[B]

Or something.

[D]

Yeah.

[E]

Okay, next question.

[C]

Good one.

[E]

The most career rushing yards in Thanksgiving games?

[C]

Barry Sanders.

[E]

Oh, no. Good guess.

[B]

Emmett Smith.

[E]

Yes.

[B]

Let's go. The kid's hot.

[E]

But it's my birthday. Would have guessed very first if it Weren't for.

[B]

I also didn't think you'd give us two Lions in a row.

[E]

Yeah, that's true. That's true. Okay, question number three. Who has the most career passing yards in a Thanksgiving game?

[C]

In one game or Thanksgiving games history?

[B]

Oh, this is a tricky question. I think I know it. Is it Tom Brady? No, damn it.

[C]

Tom Brady and Thanksgiving.

[B]

Well, I just figured they put him somewhere in there a lot on Thanksgiving, like they do the Mahomes every. Oh, hope I didn't just give him an answer.

[C]

Care to venture a guest, Matt, on Thanksgiving games?

[E]

Thanksgiving games, most career passing yards. It's. It's on theme of what we were talking about Stafford. Yes.

[B]

I just didn't think you'd go there. I didn't think we'd go there. I handed you.

[E]

I guarantee Detroit has, like, all of these. I went outside the box in all these Thanksgiving games.

[B]

All right, two to one.

[E]

Two pictures here. They're Thanksgiving themed. The first one. Who is this player?

[C]

Leon Bell.

[E]

Got it.

[B]

I said Av Avon Bell because I was so. I was trying to spit it out.

[E]

Okay, this is the tiebreaker here. I think we're two and two. So last picture. Who is this person?

[C]

Stefan Diggs.

[B]

Stefan Diggs?

[E]

Yeah.

[A]

Wow.

[C]

Another.

[B]

I can't say it any further fast.

[E]

Wait, wait. Did a Giants person just blow another lead? Oh, my. Jerry.

[B]

Oh, Annie. You're in your video making zone right now, right?

[E]

Can you tell?

[B]

I felt like you just put me.

[C]

In one of the videos.

[B]

Shane Bowen, folks.

[C]

You are so bad at this game. What is wrong with you?

[B]

Look, I just.

[C]

You shot your wad way too early.

[B]

But I blew it on Leon Bell. And I definitely. I said Stefon Diggs as fast as I humanly could have said it. I don't feel bad about that one at all. And I just went Tom Brady because I just did not think you'd hit us with two out of three lions. I thought this would be the outside the box question, so.

[E]

Yep, three.

[B]

You could have let me win on my birthday, bro. I know.

[E]

Wait, today's your birthday?

[B]

I kind. Not. Not yet. But we don't know. This comes out maybe on my birthday.

[E]

Oh, gotcha. Okay, well, happy early birthday. Birthday.

[B]

Are you a birthday week person or just like the day kind of.

[E]

Just the day.

[B]

Good.

[E]

Yeah. I'm not like. I like to celebrate it with family and stuff, but I don't go do it like a whole week.

[B]

You're not like nine birthday parties and a dinner and a brunch?

[E]

No, that's too much. But I mean, not just for me, for me personally. I know a lot of my friends. I like to do that. And I will partake in the activities if they include alcohol, but not all of them.

[B]

Not all of them.

[E]

No.

[B]

Wow.

[C]

Just give you a. Give you another loss for your birthday. Would you expect anything different from me? You wouldn't want me to take it easy on you?

[B]

No.

[E]

Yeah.

[B]

No.

[C]

Okay.

[B]

I want. I want nothing but. I want nothing but the heat. Well, thank you, Annie. Thank you, Twisted T. Thank you, Matt. Thank you everybody out there who listened. Happy Thanksgiving. Enjoy the football. It's a great slate. Finally. I feel like it's all lined up.

[E]

Chiefs, Cowboys is going to be insane.

[B]

Chiefs, Cowboys.

[E]

So good.

[B]

I can't believe the Cowboys won. That's. That. That. It's almost like they needed those two teams to win to make that game awesome. And now it's all, oh, yeah, yeah.

[E]

The NFL is happy. The NFL is in a happy place right now with the. With the ratings, I'm sure.

[B]

Well, everyone enjoy. Be safe out there. Give a little twisted tea if you need it.

[C]

Hey, I'm thankful for both of you guys.

[E]

Oh, we didn't even think to say we're thankful for each other.

[B]

Matthew and Brianne. Look at what we get to do. We get to do this.

[C]

Are you kidding me? We get to do this for fun. You kidding me?

[E]

Yeah. What a great life.

[B]

Matt's doing the, like, look at us guy. He's doing the look at us, look at us.

[E]

The meme.

[B]

Yeah.

[E]

Would you look at us? Just look at us. That's grateful.

[B]

Happy Thanksgiving, everybody.