The Jail Blazers, Michael Jordan, Game 7 vs. Kobe and Shaq with Bonzi Wells

Summary

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Throwbacks with Matt Leinart & Jerry Ferrara

Episode: The Jail Blazers, Michael Jordan, Game 7 vs. Kobe and Shaq with Bonzi Wells

Date: April 23, 2026
Guest: Bonzi Wells
Main Theme: Revisiting the legacy of the Portland "Jail Blazers," tales from NBA battles against Kobe & Shaq, and unforgettable stories with Michael Jordan—plus a candid look at sports culture, team nicknames, and media narratives.

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1. Episode Overview

This episode dives deep into the untold story of the Portland Trail Blazers' "Jail Blazers" era with special guest Bonzi Wells, coinciding with the new Netflix documentary Untold: Jailblazers. Matt and Jerry explore the real personalities behind the team’s controversial nickname, legendary playoff battles against the Lakers, and what the media got wrong. Bonzi shares raw memories, behind-the-scenes drama, and a once-in-a-lifetime Michael Jordan story, while the hosts also reminisce about the sports culture of the late ‘90s and 2000s.

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2. Key Discussion Points and Insights

A. The Birth and Purpose of the Jailblazers Doc

• [20:29] Bonzi shares that he spearheaded the Jailblazers documentary, wanting to tell the team’s story from the players’ perspective, not the media’s.
  • “It was just opportunity for us to tell our story, man, from our eyes, not everybody else's....there wasn't any social media back then. So it's good for everybody to kind of relive the journey.” — Bonzi Wells
• The project took 8 years, with Bonzi pulling hard to secure buy-in, especially from Rasheed Wallace.
• Emphasis on Rashid’s and Damon’s stories being misunderstood by the public.

B. The Media Narrative & Team Reputation

• [03:01] The hosts and Bonzi discuss how the media and narrative around the “Jail Blazers” painted an incomplete, unfair picture.
  • Matt: “They got a bad rap, dude…they were just a bunch of ballers…”
• Bonzi reflects on how the lack of social media allowed press narratives to go unchecked and pile up, leading to a lasting perception that the doc tries to correct.
• The team faced repeated police scrutiny and negative press, with stories sometimes fabricated or exaggerated for headlines.
  • “When they control the narrative, they kinda control your life.... They just want to...when they control the narrative, they kind of control your life." — Bonzi Wells [27:35]

C. Game 7 vs. the Lakers: The Ultimate What-If

• [29:47] Bonzi relives the infamous 2000 Western Conference Finals Game 7 loss to Kobe and Shaq’s Lakers.
  • Portland felt confident and dominant most of the way, even down 3-1 in the series.
  • Notable: Blazers up by 15 entering the 4th quarter, only to go ice cold and lose after missing 13 straight shots.
  • “We still to this day feel like we were a better team. And they will probably tell you the same.” — Bonzi Wells [31:24]
• Bonzi admits he never watched the game until the documentary and was “shed a tear” reliving the heartbreak.

D. Kobe vs. Jordan: Player Perspectives

• [32:36 & 34:53] Bonzi’s honest, detailed breakdown of what it was like to guard Kobe Bryant:
  • “Kobe had no friends…every time I talked to Kobe off the court, it was like an interview. He was like, he trying to be my friend. …the skill set and the will that he had, it was unmatched.” — Bonzi Wells [32:36]
• Kobe’s legacy as an all-time great and how younger players undervalue him compared to LeBron.
• Bonzi’s “smells like success” Michael Jordan story (see Memorable Moments).
• Unique view: Kobe had fewer physical gifts than MJ or LeBron, but was elevated by sheer skill and obsessive drive.

E. Inside Stories: Jordan at 3am

• [35:01 & 36:19] Bonzi tells a surreal story of getting a 3am invite to Michael Jordan’s Ritz-Carlton room for a card game.
  • “I remember I knocked on the door and Jordan answered it. He looked at me, gave me some dap, and he said, ‘B Dub, what’s up?’ …And when he hugged me, I smelled him and I said, damn, he smelled like success.” — Bonzi Wells [36:19]

F. Rasheed Wallace: The Misunderstood Leader

• [43:41] Bonzi’s view on Rasheed: unselfish, passionate, family-first, and a “true team guy” who cared only about winning.
  • Rasheed’s philosophy: keep everyone involved so the team wouldn’t crumble if he got hurt.
  • Reveals that ref Tim Donaghy admitted on Bonzi’s prior podcast, “Let’s Get Technical,” that there was an agenda against the Blazers.
  • “Sheed is like, man, I told you Bons they was cheating us…every big game they would give me and you two fouls in the first quarter…” — Bonzi Wells [45:21]

G. The Toll of Media & the “We Hate the Fans” Story

• [48:26] Bonzi clears up a long-misrepresented Sports Illustrated quote—he never said he “hated the fans.”
  • The quote was twisted; he felt the aftermath deeply, turning him bitter and affecting his demeanor.
  • “I never said this to nobody...This is how they take stuff out of context...” — Bonzi Wells [48:26]

H. The West Was the Best: NBA’s Toughest Era

• Discussions about just how brutal the Western Conference was in those seasons with the Kings, Lakers, Blazers.
• Bonzi names the toughest covers: Kobe Bryant, Richard “Rip” Hamilton, and two deadly shooters: Reggie Miller, Ray Allen.
  • “Kobe, early night, number one. No early night. Richard Hamilton…Reggie Miller and Ray Allen…the night before, you better get some rest.” — Bonzi Wells [41:10]

I. Team Nicknames: Hosts’ Top Picks

• After the interview (from ~[55:10]), Matt and Jerry debate best professional team nicknames—prompted in part by the “Jail Blazers” name.
  • Matt’s top 3: Showtime Lakers, Bash Brothers, Fab Five.
  • Jerry’s top 3: Run TMC, Dream Team, Bronx Bombers.
  • The nickname “Jail Blazers” now feels unfair after hearing the real story.

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3. Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “When he hugged me, I smelled him and I said, damn, he smelled like success.”
  — Bonzi Wells on meeting Michael Jordan [00:25, 36:19]

• “Kobe had no friends…the mama mentality is real...The skill set and the will that he had, it was unmatched.”
  — Bonzi Wells [32:36]

• “We still to this day feel like we were a better team. And they will probably tell you the same.”
  — Bonzi Wells on Game 7 vs. Lakers [31:24]

• “Rasheed is what you call a 1 of 1… He didn’t care about nothing but winning.”—
  — Bonzi Wells [43:41]

• “I’ll be the first to say that...Lakers got lucky.”
  — Matt Leinart on Game 7 outcome [31:40]

• “If you were close to Kobe, you were special.”—
  — Bonzi Wells [32:36]

• On the Sports Illustrated misquote:
  “I never said this to nobody...This is how they take stuff out of context...” — Bonzi Wells [48:26]

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4. Timestamps for Major Segments

• 00:00–01:37 – “Smells like success”: Bonzi’s 3am Michael Jordan story (teased).
• 03:01–03:30 – Media narrative and the Blazers’ “bad rap”.
• 20:29–22:54 – Bonzi explains the origins and intent of the Jailblazers documentary.
• 24:02–26:10 – The real inside mechanics of being a Blazer and reactions to Game 7.
• 27:18–29:47 – Damon Stoudamire, injustice, and racism in media coverage.
• 29:47–32:36 – Deep dive into the Blazers-Lakers Western Conference Finals, confidence, heartbreak.
• 32:36–34:45 – Guarding Kobe Bryant and reflecting on his unique greatness.
• 34:45–36:57 – Playing against “old” Michael Jordan and epic gambling stories.
• 41:10–42:04 – Bonzi’s throwback 3 toughest defensive matchups.
• 43:41–45:54 – Rasheed Wallace as misunderstood genius; Tim Donaghy and ref conspiracies.
• 48:26–50:49 – The infamous Sports Illustrated “we hate the fans” quote, consequences, and clearing the air.
• 55:10–60:30 – Matt & Jerry’s debate: top 3 best and worst team nicknames.

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5. Additional Highlights

• Bonzi’s love for golf as post-career therapy and competition.
• Reflections on how players like Yao Ming, Stromile Swift, and others remain underrated in NBA history.
• The human cost of being misunderstood and the pain of fan rejection after media “hit pieces.”
• The resilience in player brotherhood—Bonzi is the “connector,” keeping all the Blazers in touch.

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6. Tone and Style

The conversation is warm, open, and deeply nostalgic. Matt brings the perspective of a former pro athlete, Jerry infuses pop culture wit, and Bonzi matches with candid, sometimes emotional stories. The trio connects through shared experiences, humor, and respect for the game.

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In Closing

This episode takes the listener behind the headlines and stereotypes of the “Jail Blazers,” delivering a humanizing, revealing, and entertaining look at one of sports' most misunderstood teams. Bonzi’s storytelling—peppered with iconic encounters, deeply personal reflections, and never-before-shared truths—will leave fans seeing both him and the era in a new light.

Transcript

[Bonzi Wells]

I got a call at 3 in the morning. We had practice next morning at like 10. He was like, hey, man, the game is on. You coming or not? Yes. I jumped up. I ran three blocks to the Ritz Carlton. I get. I've never met him before, right? So they. They took me around to the residence side or whatever. And I remember I knocked on the door. I was nervous. I was just trying to get myself together. And I remember I knocked on the door and Jordan answered it. He looked at me, gave me some depth, and he said, B Dub, what's up? And he gave me a hug, right?

[Host 1 (possibly Ferrara)]

Wow.

[Bonzi Wells]

When he hugged me, I smelled him. Oh. And I said, damn, he smell like success.

[Host 1 (possibly Ferrara)]

All right. Welcome to another episode of Throwbacks, Ferrara and liner as that's our radio handle. Do us a favor. I love saying that. Go to the socials at throwback on. On everything. Give us a follow. We've been lighting it up on social.

[Host 2 (possibly Liner)]

Lighting it up on social. Shout out to throwbacks page and our social team, man, this week, dude, I'm.

[Host 1 (possibly Ferrara)]

I'm very excited for this week. Okay. We have joining us one of my favorite players, if you. Because I'm such a basketball head. And that was like, this is like my peak basketball. Watching you start in 2000. Speaking of a throwback, we have from the Portland Trailblazers, Bonzie Wells coming on the show. He's here to talk to us out now on Netflix, Untold Jailblazers. Matt. I mean, you're Lakers. We'll talk to him about it. But famously, that. That series is the one that got away.

[Host 2 (possibly Liner)]

Yeah, man, I was. I was like. I was 16. I was like 7, 16, 17 years old in that run, that Kobe and Shack run, right? And I remember I watched those playoff games start to finish every single game. It was the Kings, right? It was like. It was. They had some great matchups, but the Blazers were tough. Rashid and Bonzi and Damon. And having Bonzi, like, when you look back and talking to him, you look back, he's probably one of the more underrated players of that. That run, right? Like, even, like when he went to Memphis, like, he had some really, really good years. He was a great defender. He was a great role player for that team, as he sort of. Obviously then he. He became more of a. Like a bigger player for them. But yeah, man, like, it brought back a lot of memories. Obviously, the game seven, everybody talks about Kobe to Sha, but he breaks down, right? The series. He breaks down kind of quarter, which I thought was really interesting. So, I mean, dude, Bonzie Wells, man, what a stud.

[Host 1 (possibly Ferrara)]

Yeah. And you know, little spoiler from our interview. He has one of the best Michael Jordan stories I've ever heard.

[Host 2 (possibly Liner)]

The best Michael Jordan story I've ever heard. You have to listen to it and

[Host 1 (possibly Ferrara)]

then stick around because after we talk to Bonzie, Matt and I, we're going to break down our all time nicknames for a professional team. Jailblazers, obviously, would be one of them. Although if you watch that documentary, man, you kind of look, you, you'll feel differently about the Jailblazers. Feel like once you're done with the doc.

[Host 2 (possibly Liner)]

They got a bad rap, dude. They got a bad rap. Look, I, I think some of it was probably on their own, but they were, they were, they were just a bunch of ballers, man, and they played really well together. And it was interesting. You, you go back and the, and the doc covers this, which is fascinating. When the GM starts to kind of bring in new pieces, kind of break it apart to, to, to play with the Lakers. Basically it was to, hey, how do we defend Kobe and Shaq and that team? And essentially that was what, like, led to their demise. So pretty interesting.

[Host 1 (possibly Ferrara)]

Yeah, we're gonna get to Bonzi in a minute, but I, I, I would be, it would be an error for me not to take a second because this is airing now. Tonight, the draft will begin. Arguably the most fun draft for the New York Giants in a very long time. But, you know, it's 20, 26 NFL draft. I want to stick you in the DeLorean for a minute and go back in time 20 years ago. 20 years ago, Matt, the 2006 NFL draft, your name was called. So let's start. I'm gonna basically just like I said, we're in the DeLorean. Go back to the morning of the draft. You're waking up in New York City, right? It was New York City.

[Host 2 (possibly Liner)]

Yeah.

[Host 1 (possibly Ferrara)]

What's Radio City through your mind mentally? Where's your family at? Like, what's going on in your world the morning of 2006?

[Host 2 (possibly Liner)]

Yeah. So nervous, bro. Nervous. So a lot of stories come from that day. And I, for that, at that time in the draft, there was only, they only invited a handful of people, right? Like, they invited maybe four to seven, maybe five or six guys. And so it was Mario Williams, Reggie Bush, myself, Vince Young, debris shot Ferguson and Vernon Davis. So like a couple days leading up to the draft or doing all sorts of stuff, right? All the New York stuff, media, blah, blah, blah. The morning of, I mean, dude, like one, I'm like, in about five, six hours. My life is going to come.

[Host 1 (possibly Ferrara)]

You're going to the NFL.

[Host 2 (possibly Liner)]

You're going to the NFL. You're going to be a top pick. You're going to. You're going to make all this. You're going to have all of these things, right? Like, it's just. It's just crazy. Probably similar to the Heisman night that I won. Like, I was really nervous because I had no idea what to expect. So the cool part about that, and I just saw a video this week was like, my mom was there. Obviously, my mom passed away. So, like, that was like, I saw that video and I'm like, damn. Like, I shed a tear. I'm like, I don't have a lot of videos of my mom alive with me, like, at least on my phone. So, like, that was pretty cool, that moment, you know? But, man, it was. Is it what you would imagine, dude? Like, just crazy.

[Host 1 (possibly Ferrara)]

So mom and dad are with you. Do you have any friends as your brother? Any other families? Yeah, mom and dad or aging? Like, who's with you then? When you leave for the draft, who's in your car going over?

[Host 2 (possibly Liner)]

So for me, it was my mom, my dad, my brother, my agent, my quarterback coach, Steve Clarkson, who just has been with me since day one, since I was 13. We're still tight to this day. Brian Kennedy was there, USC guy, and that was it. I think maybe one other, but that was it. Like six people. And then you're at your table and. And yeah, so, like, you're. So you're in the green room behind the stage, right? And you've seen the videos, and it's. Each have our table there, and it's only 6, 7, 8 tables, whatever it is. And you're just like. Like, Mario Williams knew he was going one. That was announced the night before because

[Host 1 (possibly Ferrara)]

there was speculation that Reggie might have went one.

[Host 2 (possibly Liner)]

Yeah, Mario went one. So I could break down the stories of the top 10, if you want

[Host 1 (possibly Ferrara)]

to hear them, because I would love to. It's our show. We could do what we want. I would love to.

[Host 2 (possibly Liner)]

Here we go. So I actually pulled this up because I did forget that some of the few picks. So Mario's number one. Okay. So number two is New Orleans Saints. I flew out one. They. They worked me out privately. Sean Payton and all those guys. And I had a good workout for them. I think they worked now privately or they. I met with them. I met with them at the draft. They flew me out for a visit, a draft official draft visit out to the facility right I did that to. I did that with. Only with the Raiders and with them. And there was a lot of speculation because at that time, I think Drew was coming off a shoulder injury, like, Right. That he just had. I mean, Drew Brees, all time great. It was just. There was just speculation in that time, like, maybe we need to draft the next guy. So number two is New Orleans Saints. There was a chance I was going there, like, on draft day. They went with Reggie, which is the safe pick, a great pick. Reggie's a phenom, right. And Reggie had a great career for New Orleans Saints. Here's where it gets interesting. Number three was the Tennessee Titans. Norm Chow, offensive coordinator, my coach at usci. Jeff Fisher, the head coach, USC guy. I had a private workout for them the day after my pro day. My pro day. I wasn't. I did. I wasn't great on my pro day. Pro days have changed a lot now. I wasn't great the next day for my private workout. I was a lot better with them. I threw to some of their receivers. It was like. It was a good day. I get a call the night before from Norm Chow, and he says, I don't know if I've ever told this public. He basically says, matt, we're going to draft Vince Young.

[Host 1 (possibly Ferrara)]

Oh, he tells you?

[Host 2 (possibly Liner)]

He told me we were going to draft Vince Young. Wow. It was sort of. And I'll just leave it at this. And like, this, no disrespect to anybody, but, like, it was just out of his hands. They. They didn't really have his say, so they drafted Vince. You know, Houston guy, all that stuff. Vince. Shout out to Vince Young. He went three, but I thought I was maybe gonna go to three up until that thing, because it made a lot of sense, right? Yeah. One championships with Norm and all that stuff. The next one, New York jets at number four.

[Host 1 (possibly Ferrara)]

Wow. Wow.

[Host 2 (possibly Liner)]

New York Post. The next Joe Namath. I met with the jets and Mangini and Tannenbaum and all those guys. They flew out to la. They. Private Schottenheimer, I believe, was the oc. They. They. I worked out, had a great workout with them. They take the lineman to Bricasha Ferguson, right. A tackle, you know, had a great career for them, whatever. So I don't go there. Here's where it gets interesting. The next team dude that I'm. That I'm. That I'm slated to maybe go to is number seven, the Oakland Raiders. Again, draft visit to the Oakland Raiders. It was. Art Shell was the coach. Al Davis was obviously rest in Peace was still alive. I go out there, I have a meeting with Al Davis in his office. It's really cool, dude. I get goosebumps thinking about it. And I'm like, this is legendary Al Davis. He's basically telling me, if you fall to number seven, which there's no way you're going to fall to number seven. I remember this vividly. He's like, I don't see how we wouldn't take you. Whatever. He called me big guy, whatever, you know, like, they had. I don't know, it might have been Andrew Walter at the time. They didn't really have.

[Host 1 (possibly Ferrara)]

They needed a quarterback, they needed a quarter.

[Host 2 (possibly Liner)]

So I'm like, I might be going to the Oakland Raiders. Which was sick because I was a Raiders fan growing up. Kenny Stabler was like, closer to home,

[Host 1 (possibly Ferrara)]

not too far from home.

[Host 2 (possibly Liner)]

So that was. That was that. Okay, so they get on. This is a story that's wild that was just told to me a year and a half ago. The. One of the strength coaches for Boise State was on that staff at that time. And I didn't know this at the time. He told me that up until probably 30 seconds, right? Because there's like 10 minutes, right? It's chipping down. People are trying to take calls, like, whatever. They didn't know who they were going to pick. He said, up until maybe, say, a minute, it was me the whole time.

[Host 1 (possibly Ferrara)]

Everybody, minutes ago, on the clock, everybody in that.

[Host 2 (possibly Liner)]

He told me this. He's like, dude, everybody thought it was you. We were all pumped. We're like, we're going to get our quarterback, west coast kid, all this stuff. And he told me this. He goes, matt, he goes. In the last minute, Al Davis goes, what about that kid from Texas, Michael Huff? And that was it. They drafted Michael Huff, dude, Based off of a revelation. Al Davis was like, hey, what are. Again? Like, maybe misquoting me. But what about that kid from Mike. From Texas, Michael. Michael Huff was a great player. Won the Jim Thorpe. Like, he was a stud, right? So that. That was it. And he goes, matt, he's like. When Al Davis said that, the room went silent. He was like. We were all like, holy shit. What the fuck is just happening? Right? So that was that. Okay, so almost finished here. So then the.

[Host 1 (possibly Ferrara)]

No, after that.

[Host 2 (possibly Liner)]

Dude, this is a scene from Draft Day, bro, when the quarterback, Bo Callahan, fucking leaves. I'm lee. I'm like. I'm now sweating. I'm the last one in there. It's like one of those doomsday.

[Host 1 (possibly Ferrara)]

Yeah. What's going through your mind.

[Host 2 (possibly Liner)]

Rogers did this the year before Green Bay was drafted in, like in the 20th.

[Host 1 (possibly Ferrara)]

He was 20. Yeah, yeah.

[Host 2 (possibly Liner)]

He was the last one in the room. So I'm sitting there, it feels like a day goes by, dude, and I'm like, cameras are there straight out of a movie. I'm like, my agent was kind of like, I had. Tom Conan was there and he's a beast. He was, he was just on the phone. Like, we didn't really know because it was like, I didn't meet with anybody after that. I'm like, no clue, dude. My agent, no clue. So number 10 comes and what I heard too was when Denver, they didn't get that Denver was going to take me or Jay Cutler, whoever fell to them at 11. Jay went to 11, I went 10, obviously. So if Jay went 10, I was going to go 11 to Denver. So I get the call from. I get, you know, then this is, this is like the moment, right? So like I'm kind of just sitting there scrambling. I get the call and it's Denny Green. And I'll never forget, man. Rest in peace. And I just, I love Denny. Denny was so great, man. He treated us so great. I only had one year with him, but he was phenomenal. And he goes, he goes. I think he said, and I've said this, he goes, he goes, matt, like, this is a gift from God, man. I don't know how you fell to us, but like, we're so freaking fired up to have you.

[Host 1 (possibly Ferrara)]

Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

[Host 2 (possibly Liner)]

And it was like the greatest, one of the greatest moments of my life, obviously. And you know, it was the whole thing, coach, I can't wait to get started, blah, blah, blah. And that was it. I get off the phone, I hug my family, I walk on stage, I have those photos. You can see is a really cool

[Host 1 (possibly Ferrara)]

moment suit, by the way.

[Host 2 (possibly Liner)]

Good suit, yeah, three piece. I still have it. And then, dude, I'm on a plane. I'm on a plane the next morning, like 6am to Arizona. Doing the press conference the next day, you know, with, with Deuce Latui, who is my team at usc. He was a second round pick. So the press conferences are for like the first two rounds basically. least that's what they did back then. So I'm on the plane with Deuce. That was pretty cool. And we do the press conference and facility, all this stuff, dude. And then I get home and then I was like, go look for a house. And I'm back. I'm in at OTAs, like three weeks later, probably two weeks later, and that was it, dude. So all the craziness in the top 10, right? And I go to the team I never. I met with Arizona in. At the combine. So what they do at the combine is they have. They have hotel rooms, right? Set up for teams, right? And they're brass and everybody. And. And those are the ones that are like 15 minutes. You get 15 minutes, you get a certain amount. I did. I think I did the Saints, I did the Jets. I did. I. I only did a couple, right? Then there's speed rounds, like, speed dating in, like, in a room, right, where you can just. Coaches can just pull you aside, right? Like, you're sitting. Like you're just sitting at a table. They're like, oh, hey, I'm coach so and so from Arizona. Nice to meet you. You know Coach Cruz, who is my quarterback coach in Arizona. We sat for like a couple minutes just shooting the. And he was. And he. I remember he was like, there's no way you're gonna drop the 10, Matt. But, like, you know, like, love your career, whatever. It's just small talk, right? Kind of get to know you, shake hands. Hey, coach, Nice to meet you. Yeah, like, awesome. Blah, blah. That was it. That's the only interaction I had with Arizona.

[Host 1 (possibly Ferrara)]

So wild for you. After hearing that story, what's the biggest one if. What if of all those teams, like, which one would you say, man, if I could have just. What? Because, like, I started thinking of the. The Tennessee thing. Yeah, they draft Lindell White later in the first round, right? There's a chance. Then they draft you.

[Host 2 (possibly Liner)]

I would probably sell. I. I would say. Yeah, I would say the biggest what if is probably New York would have been bad for me. I think Oakland. Oakland didn't have a great team. Arizona. I. In all honesty, Arizona, we were like, we had anon bold and Larry Fitzgerald, like, we had. We had receivers. And Denny just happened to get fired after one year, right? And then we all know the history that happened after that. I think Tennessee, because I know that offense was my offense at usc. That's what. That's what he had there. Even when Vince was drafted. Like, there. There is something to say about going to a team, coaches, the head coach, and, you know, they build around you or they build a system around you and all that kind of stuff. Again, I think the biggest what if is if I would have came out the year before because everybody was slating me. The number one draft pick the year

[Host 1 (possibly Ferrara)]

who was won that year? Was it Alex Smith?

[Host 2 (possibly Liner)]

It was Alex Smith, Aaron Rodgers, and myself. And I made the decision to come back. And again, I'm glad I did. But everyone asked me, like, what if you would have went out? Sometimes I sit back and think, like, would I have got. Would I have gotten drafted? Number I don't think I would have because physically I was not as good as I was the following year. And again, I wasn't like, you know, I wasn't a. Like I didn't have a rocket arm, but I was just a lot bigger and better my next year than I was that year. And I was hurt. I was just hurt. So that, to me, might be the biggest what if. If, like, I would have came out, like, I would have been Arizona, you know, so. But yeah, Tennessee probably do well, listen, but real quick, shout out to all the, you know, all the kids who are going to get drafted, even the ones that aren't going to get drafted. It's a. It's. It's an incredible experience. Enjoy it. Embrace the moment. And if you don't, let it be motivation, right? There's so many stories out there of undrafted free agents. Fourth. I mean, Tom Brady, the biggest one, right? Fifth round pick, sixth round pick, seventh round picks. The story isn't over. If you're not, your name's not called. Right. It's just. It's a great day. I'm excited to. To watch it and to see where all these kids go. And I'm excited to see what your Giants do in the top 10, bro. Two picks in the top 10.

[Host 1 (possibly Ferrara)]

It's gotten to the point, Matt. And I know by the time most people listen to this, maybe the draft will have happened. Who knows? But it's gotten to the point where I've heard so many versions of what the Giants could do, you almost have to just stop reading and listening to stuff because nobody knows. It'll all be fun, man.

[Host 2 (possibly Liner)]

Hey, let's get to Bonzi. Our boy.

[Host 1 (possibly Ferrara)]

Let's get to our boy. Bonzie Wells. Untold jailblazers. You know what's tough this time of year? Trying to keep any kind of routine when you're constantly on the move, whether it's early flights, long days, or bouncing between things, it's really easy for the stuff, you know, makes you feel good to fall off. For me, I try to stay consistent with just one thing every day, something simple that keeps me feeling on track. And that's where Kachava's new travel packs have really been clutch. They make it ridiculously easy. You just toss a couple of packs in your bag and you're good. No scooping, no mess, no thinking twice about it. And it's not just convenience, it's actually doing something for you. You're getting plant based protein, fiber, greens, probiotics, all in one shake. I've noticed better energy throughout the day and it keeps everything balanced even when my schedule is not. It's clean too. No artificial flavors or sweeteners. Non gmo, no soy, no gluten. Just real ingredients that actually taste good. And having that consistency even when everything else is moving around makes a big difference. Take your daily ritual with you. Go to cachava.com use code throwbacks for 15% off your first order. That's cacava k a c h a v a dot com code throwbacks I'm US Transportation Secretary Sean Duffy. We all get distracted when we drive,

[Host 2 (possibly Liner)]

whether it's from our phones or kids

[Host 1 (possibly Ferrara)]

in the backseat bickering. But how we handle these distractions can be a matter of life or death. Before you get on the road for your next road trip, please put your phones on silent and take a mental note to focus on driving.

[Host 2 (possibly Liner)]

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[Host 1 (possibly Ferrara)]

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[Host 2 (possibly Liner)]

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[Host 1 (possibly Ferrara)]

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[Host 2 (possibly Liner)]

See homedepot.com pricematch for details. All right, our guest today hails from Muncie, Indiana. He completed his career at Ball State as the Mid American Conference, all time leader in points and steals the 11th overall pick in the 1998 draft. He knows a challenge of trying to lock down my favorite athlete and basketball player of all time, Kobe Bryant. And in the 2003 playoffs, he set a then franchise record of 45 points. A member of the infamous Portland Jailblazers with a new dot coming out, it's Bonzi Wells. Welcome to Throwbacks, man.

[Bonzi Wells]

Man. Appreciate y' all having me gentlemen. Appreciate it.

[Host 2 (possibly Liner)]

I, I, I am like so, I, I'm, I'm a Laker fan, you know, I'm from Southern California, but I totally watching this doc, which is really incredible. And, and that team, and those teams you were on were so good and so fun to watch. It's just a great, it was great memory lane for me, man. And I used to always say, yeah, Bonzi's a great player and all this stuff, man. So we really appreciate you coming on, dude.

[Bonzi Wells]

I appreciate y' all having us and, you know, I'm glad you guys like the doc and I hope everybody else like it when they watch it, but it was just opportunity for us to tell our story, man, from, you know, our eyes, not everybody else's. And, you know, like, we spoke off camera that it wasn't any social media back then. So it's good for everybody to kind of relive the journey and kind of understand. Oh, that makes sense now, you know. Oh, okay. That makes sense. Instead of kind of like hearing one side of the story, judging guys off the one side of the story. So that's kind of what it was. I wanted Damien's story to get out. I wanted Rashid's story to get out. And also my.

[Host 1 (possibly Ferrara)]

Yeah, that's what I wanted to ask. When you are first approached with the idea of doing a doc, right? Is it. Was it an immediate like, yes, let's go tell the story. What was your process when they. When this all kind of came together? Was it a no brainer or did you guys all have to take some time to figure out if you wanted to go back down memory lane?

[Bonzi Wells]

You know, honestly, it was me. I spearheaded this thing about eight years ago. Just became an idea. And, you know, and you know how this world is, you know, people. And sometimes you don't do official writing stuff down. It's just a conversation. And, you know, when we started the big three years ago with Ice Cube, I started mingling with different type of people that, you know, you in different worlds. And I was just. We was having blazer conversation, blazer conversations. I was like, man, I think it'd be nice if we did a documentary, just something to tell our story. Just kind of just go back and relive the thing. And it just became a conversation and it just stayed on me. And for years I was just trying to connect the dots with different people and make stuff happen. And you know how I go, timing's not right, you know, and. And then once I've really got it together, the hardest part was getting guys to agree to it, you know, and, you know, a couple guys got on immediately, but Rasheed Wallace is probably one of the toughest guys in the world to, you know, get to talk. And I had to pull the serious friend card to be like, bro, we need you. I need you, man. Let's just tell our story. Cause he's such an interesting guy to me. He's such an interesting character and he's so Misunderstood. And I'm like, man, people need to know the true you, the guy that I know, because I know how the response is when we go out in public, especially back then. Some people will be standoffish, some people will be. You hear the whispers, you get the looks, and I'll be like, man, people don't know how genuinely of a good guy you are. And then Damon as well, and just, you know, all of us. And I feel like that story needs to be told. And once I met a guy named Tim Livingston, you know, he's my guy. He kind of started connecting the dots with me and we got with some other guys and it worked out.

[Host 2 (possibly Liner)]

It was. It was so fun watching because it kind of brought me back because I was, gosh, in those years, I was probably 17, 18, 19 years old. I played basketball and football, and I remember there were a few, like, players and teams that really changed, you know, the culture. Just what it was. It was the Fab Five back in the day, you know, with the shorts and the uniform. It was. It was kind of AI coming to league and him. And then, gosh, I'm watching the doc and I'm thinking, man, it was. It was you guys, like, you guys, like, it's almost. It's almost refreshing to watch it because now the NBA is so different. Like, I don't say it's soft, but it's different, right? The fact. It's just a different. You guys were like, almost the bad boys, you know, before, you know, you guys were like the bad boys in that time. You kind of talk about reliving what, what. What emotions and feelings come up. I know you just watched the doc. What emotions do come up from that? Because I do think, and Jerry and I have talked about this. It is one of the bigger what ifs, I think, in sports because you guys were so freaking good. And if you. If you do win that Game 7 against the Lakers, then, like, you guys might go on and win a couple championships. Just the emotions and feelings that you got from re watching that, I mean,

[Bonzi Wells]

it was a lot, you know, because when you're in the moment. I was young, I was in my first couple years in the league, so I didn't know the intricate details that was going on behind the scenes. For me, seeing a doc was like connecting puzzle pieces for me as well. And when I was in the moment, I was just remembering selfishly, saying to myself, looking at the talent, like, I'm never going to play. Like, these guys are really, really, really good. I'm never going to get off the bench. And I just remember that journey. Like, my first year I didn't play. We made it to the Western Conference finals. I don't know if you remember when Sean Elliott hit that. That corner three over, right? Yes.

[Host 2 (possibly Liner)]

Oh, yeah.

[Bonzi Wells]

And then he played the Knicks in the finals, and they beat the Knicks. And so that was supposed to be us. And, you know, but, you know, when you're young and dumb, you thinking, oh, this is. Every year. We. We'll be back next year. It's nothing, right? And, you know, and that was the beginning of, okay, you start seeing, you know, you know, Bob Witson start making tweaks to the roster a little bit. But, you know, that's part of the business. I was okay with it. So my second year, when they brought in Scottie Pippen, Steve Smith, and some guys with some, you know, some real cachet in terms of legends, you know, Scottie Pippen's a legend, obviously. We know Steve Smith is a perennial all Star from the East. And I was like, okay, we got a different vibe here. And when we made that journey in 2000, I was. I was literally like, man, every time we go into the game, I think we're up 15 points because we're that good. Like, people are scared of us. Like, not. Not. But we had an intimidation factor to us in terms of how we carried ourselves, which was a plus. And any. If you got that type of bravado, you would take it. And I think our. I think just going through that and dominating teams, then going through that roller coaster with the Lakers for all those years, and especially that 2000 when we lost that game seven, that right there, when I saw that. Cause I haven't watched the game since 2000. I never watched it. Just to see those highlights and seeing the people, it brought it back to me. And I just remember being dumb. We'll be back next year again. And they made some tweaks, and we never got back there. Then we went through the whole. The fans love us and everybody love us. And then you just watched it downfall. And I watched the downfall. And then at the end of the doc, I'm not gonna lie to you guys, I shedded a tear because it brought back so many emotions that I went through that I didn't know I was going through.

[Host 1 (possibly Ferrara)]

Well, that's what really comes across in watching it. You know, we were talking off the air. Like, that was peak basketball for me. I was, like 20 years old. I was watching every game. Any. Any game. I didn't care who was Playing. I was watching everything. And, you know, that's why I'm so happy you guys did do this, Doc. Because, you know, watching it back now, first, I forget how young truly you are. Like, we're about. Like, you're not. We're about the same age. Right. You don't realize it because, like, you're in the NBA. I'm like some kid working in a restaurant. Like, you're, like, playing in NBA playoff games. Right. But, you know, and I don't want to. I encourage everyone to watch it, so I won't get too deep because I don't want to. Not that it's. I mean, it's a public story, but when you. The. The thing that hit me the most was the Damon Stoudemire incident. Right. The thing that happened. I just think, like, today, obviously, we always have these talks about, like, oh, social media having it now. It's no good. And back then, but, like, that might have been the one instance where maybe it might have helped because, like, And. And Damon, I know, says in the doc, like, he just, like, never talked about it, buried it, went about his life. But to me, watching that and, like, knowing you were so young, you must have really just been like, what the hell is going on in this place?

[Bonzi Wells]

But, you know, it hurt me so bad. But I was proud of him, of course, because it hurt me to see people turn on him. Hometown legend, one of the best players in the league. Just a really. And then off the court, hands down, one of the best men, you want to know.

[Host 1 (possibly Ferrara)]

Yeah.

[Bonzi Wells]

And they was just so hard on him. And I watched him every day, never put his head down. I never saw him pout. I never saw him want. Even when we hung out on our personal time and just doing what we do, he never wanted nobody to feel sorry for him. And that's what I respected so much about him. And when he was going through and the stuff was happening, that's the story I wanted people to know about. Damon Stoudemire and Rasheed Wallace. Like, this stuff happens to people like us out here. The police might have it out for you. You know, people just don't like you and don't want to see you on top, and they just want to. And when they control the narrative, they kind of control your life. And, you know, back then wasn't Associated Press was everywhere, and everybody didn't have access to it. And us, we were so anti media, we wouldn't say nothing to them. So we just allowed them to say spew whatever they wanted to and for guys like yourself who don't know us personally, you're going to form your opinion. I hate this dude. This guy is a douchebag. This guy is this and that. Not knowing that these people are creating a narrative that's totally false reality. And that's what we dealt with so much. It got to the point. Well, it was always like that. We just, like, we was used to it. It just became another Monday that we got pulled over. It became another Tuesday that they would pull us over, let you go on your way. And then you read in the paper next day that the policeman made a report that said, I pulled such and such over. And I think I smelled the odor of marijuana. Just to put the narrative out there. And it keeps building. And then when you start stacking narratives, shoot. The weight was just so heavy. It was like, man, this is what it is.

[Host 1 (possibly Ferrara)]

Yeah, man, that's just dead wrong.

[Bonzi Wells]

I'm.

[Host 1 (possibly Ferrara)]

I'm curious to see, like, once the DOC drops, like, there. There will be some commentary on social media about a lot of that stuff. So, like, real quick. I know we were talking about, like, game seven. You haven't watched it, but, you know, we here at throwbacks like to kind of go back in time and dig up. I forgot too, as a massive F. You guys were down 3:1. So that game seven wasn't just like, oh, both teams were slugging it out. You guys almost pulled off. The 3 one is like a death sentence in playoff basketball, let alone the Western Conference finals. So I guess go back in time for a minute. Cause it doesn't really hit on the dock. But the mindset. Do you. What do you remember going into that, like, game five down three one, Lakers trying to close it.

[Bonzi Wells]

Man, I'm gonna tell you the truth. If you look at the series, we went to la, you know, you gotta play two two one. One one. We split in la. Game two got our brain. We got our brains beat in game first. In game one. I'm sorry, game two, we beat them. So we're going back to Portland with all the momentum, like, oh, we got two games at home. We going at least. We got to get two of them. We gonna go three of one and we're confident. We saw the looks on their face. We knew the matchups was in our favor. We knew we were deeper. We knew we had better players. Respectfully, as a whole. As a whole. So we was like, okay, one of them gonna get their point. Shaq or Kobe. It is what it is. But we can't let the others. So that was the game plan. And when we went to game two, and, I'm sorry, three and four back in Portland, I think we might have let our guards down a little bit. A little more cocky because we had the home court advantage. The fans were great and they snuck us in those two games. So you think the more the morale would be down. It wasn't. Guys were still like, man, we gave them a gift. Man, we gonna go to LA and whoop them. We gonna come back home and whoop them again, and then we gonna go win game seven. So that was the mindset.

[Host 1 (possibly Ferrara)]

But you basically did it. You basically did that very thing.

[Bonzi Wells]

Yeah, well, you know, everybody would say that in that situation. Yo, if we do this, we could do that. You know, you're thinking of, you know, best case. So, you know, everybody threw it out there and, you know, you don't know if it's going to happen, but it happened. And it was happening perfectly until for. So it worked well in game five, Game six, and game seven for three quarters. And then after that, you know, the debacle. Thirteen missed shots in a row or whatever the case may be. But it was no wavering on the fact that we still to this day feel like we were a better team. And they will probably tell you the same.

[Host 2 (possibly Liner)]

All people remember and you see the highlight. And by the way, I don't watch the last five minutes of our USC Texas National Championship game with Vince Young. I'm the same way, man. It just. It makes me. It makes me shed a tear. I'm like, I got to turn it off because I unfortunately, I know what happens.

[Bonzi Wells]

I know what happened.

[Host 2 (possibly Liner)]

But, like, game seven, you only really see that. The lob, right from Kobe to Shaq. But, yeah, I forgot the 13 missed shots because I'm watching it, the doc, and I'm like, dude, you're up 13 or 15 going into the fourth. You have the game one, and then all of a sudden it's just. It's just. That's just. It's just like luck, you know, literally, Lakers got lucky. And I'll be the first to say that I wanted to ask you about Kobe, because I think, you know, for me personally, like, I think he's one of. I think he's probably number two behind MJ. And, you know, there's all these goat conversations, LeBron, all these people. But, like, you played against him. You saw him. You saw him throughout his. His prime in those years. What are your thoughts on Kobe, on where he stands as. As one of the greatest of all Time. Because I do think sometimes he's. He almost. He's looked at as underrated sometimes, you know, with the way they view, you know, I. I don't know. I. I just feel like these young kids now are like, oh, like, he's. He's never really in that conversation sometimes,

[Bonzi Wells]

you know, and it sucks. It sucks. You know, I argue with my kids and I argue with these younger kids that I coach, and I'll be like, fam, Y' all say that, but you guys never had to look across from him, knowing that you gotta guard him on NBC at noon, where everybody's watching across the country, and, like, you don't know what that feels like. I do. But, you know, honestly, man, Cole, you know, rest in peace to Kobe. I'm just so thankful for what he brought to the game. The mindset he brought to the game, and the mama mentality is real. You know, people don't truly understand. Kobe had no friends. In terms of outsiders, if you were close to Kobe, you were special. You. Like, every time I talked to Kobe off the court, it was like an interview our young fellow, and they keep moving around. It was never like, he trying to be my friend. He was like. And then you hear about the work ethic, you hear about the stories, and then you get on the court and he's embarrassing you. Like, I just remember I thought I was one of the best defenders in the history of defense, just mentally, because you try to be, you know, you try to have confidence in yourself. I just watch this six' six man. When he don't got big hands, he can't grip the ball. He's not more athletic than me. He's not overly faster than me, but just the skill set and the will that he had, it was unmatched. And I played against Jordan, older Jordan, LeBron, Kobe, and just that Kobe. It was just amazing to watch as a fan of his and to compete against him to see if I could even match up. And he was younger than me in age, but I was just like, man, this guy is just so mature and ahead of his. His time. The way he goes about the game, the way he holds people accountable to how they even address him. Kobe don't even take no mess on how you even address him. So I just really appreciated him for the game. And I feel like it's dumb for kids to really, really overlook Kobe in any type of goal conversation because his game was special and he didn't have any distinct advantages like Bron, 6' 9, 250. He got Michael Jordan was uber athletic, had these big hands. You know, all this stuff of. Kobe was just a six, six skinny kid with a crazy, crazy, crazy skill set.

[Host 2 (possibly Liner)]

What do you remember about. You said you played against kind of older Jordan, I'm assuming, with the Wizards. What, what, what do you remember about playing against him? Anything.

[Bonzi Wells]

Playing poker or playing just, I mean, poker.

[Host 2 (possibly Liner)]

Both, both. Both playing against him at his older.

[Bonzi Wells]

I was blessed to. I was blessed to play with Pip. So, you know, I had kind of an end with Jordan. So we. We've had a couple card games where I gotta. I got blessed.

[Host 2 (possibly Liner)]

That's gotta be rough.

[Bonzi Wells]

I learned that. It's levels. It's levels. It's levels. I learned a lot about levels. Like, I'm here, Jordan is, you know, and he'll let you know about it. But, you know, playing against Jordan, I just remember when he was playing from the Wizards, and, you know, I grew up in Indiana, so, you know, WGN for us was local. So I was always a huge Jordan fan. I was a huge Jordan fan, you know, a huge Scottie Pippen fan. And I heard about the stories from Scottie for like two years before Jordan, you know, before we played him. And just telling me about Jordan, I was just picking Pip's, you know, brain about Jordan, about the time, about, you know, mindset and all that stuff. And then he was like, you want. He's like, man, we gonna have a card game. You wanna meet him? And I just remember. This is a true story. This is a true story. We went to Washington and I got a call at 3 in the morning. We had a shoot around. We had practice next morning at like 10. He was like, hey, man, the game is on. You coming or not? Yes. I jumped up. I ran three blocks to the Ritz Carlton. I get. I've never met him before, right? So they took me around to the residence site or whatever. And I remember I knocked on the door. I was nervous. I was just trying to get myself together. I remember I knocked on the door and Jordan answered it. And he gave me. He looked at me, gave me some dap. And he said, b Dub, what's up? And he gave me a hug, right?

[Host 1 (possibly Ferrara)]

Wow.

[Bonzi Wells]

And when he hugged me, I smelled him and I said, damn, he smelled like success. I said, man, I said, man, I. I know, I know that was weird, but I said, man, I just. I just wanted to smell the man. And, you know, he just showed love. He was just nice to me all night long, man.

[Host 2 (possibly Liner)]

I just got a visual of that. I got a visual that's amazing, dude.

[Bonzi Wells]

Oh, and, and, you know, we played two times that year and I got, you know, we, we split and. But it was just good going against him. He lost his athleticism, but he still had the skill set to pivots the footwork this way. He was pump fake Michael Jordan, so he was good. He still gave us 20. He still gave us 25 at 40. So that let you know what, what he was on.

[Host 1 (possibly Ferrara)]

Listen, I, you know, I, I'm a Knicks fan and similarly, like, you know, that guy was the bane of my existence. But I want to ask you with two things real fast, too. You know, you mentioned, like, your kids and kids you're coaching, right? I have this conversation with, like, my nephew's 17 all the time, and, like, I learned how to show him, like, Michael Jordan highlight reels. Like, he's like, come on, was he really that good? I'm like, dude, but who do you find? Like, whether it's kids you're coaching or your own, like, what. When you talk about, like, your generation, who do they try to throw at you from this generation, right? Besides LeBron? I know it's LeBron, but besides Brian,

[Bonzi Wells]

that's what it's always going to be. It's going to be Brian, right? Like, they know John Morant. They don't know D. Rose, the young D. Rose that we know. They know John Moran. I'll be trying to tell these guys, I'd be like, kids, all this training stuff you're doing and all these kids you seeing, they got the stuff from our era. All these training A's they're doing is all the stuff that Michael Jordan was doing. Naturally. These trainers are just so smart. They know how to break it down into drill form. I said, so you're just basically getting kids who mimic the games of other guys. Like, even when you poach. It's crazy. Allen Iverson used to do this cut right where you got the top of the key. You have two guys at the free throw line, and he'd be on the wing and he'd just run across the top of the guys and he'd catch the ball and rip it through. It's called the Iverson cut in everybody's offense. Like, they got names for guys, and you probably, in football, as you know, Matt, you probably got different things that guys did well. So, I mean, guys, you guys stole everything that we had that we, that we offered, and you guys are trying to make it like, you, you're the originators and you're not. And, you know, if you really want to watch guys, like we said, Jordan and Kobe and Scottie Pippen. And he was my favorite. Grant Hill, Penny Hardaway. Just Charles Barkley. Just so many guys that just naturally played the game without training aids. Go watch those guys. And that's, that's, that's the reactionary stuff a lot of you guys play. Oh, I gotta do this cone drill. I gotta do this pop, pop, pop. Like, no, like our, Our arrow was different. We going right at you. We don't got no time to take, you know, shoot threes and all that crazy shit real quick.

[Host 2 (possibly Liner)]

I love, I love basketball. I love this. Who was someone we know, like Kobe in that era? I know you play with TMac, I think who's. I mean, unbelievable. You mentioned Penny. Was there someone in the era that you played that is just, like, super. We talked about Brandon Roy a couple weeks ago. And like, one of the bigger what ifs, how great he was, right? But then the injuries and all that. Was there someone in your air that maybe we don't talk about that. You're like, this dude was a problem. Maybe not a big name or a star, but someone that would give you fits, Daddy.

[Bonzi Wells]

I mean, I just, I. Man, that's, that's, that's a good question. Because everybody I play with are really, really, really good players. I mean, I got. I was going. I was going to name a guy like Yao, but Yao was really, really good. And I thought Yao could have been really amazing.

[Host 2 (possibly Liner)]

But we don't even talk about.

[Host 1 (possibly Ferrara)]

We don't talk about Yao anymore, though. It's sad, but we really don't.

[Bonzi Wells]

Oh, my goodness. Yao was the best center, skilled I've ever seen. I'm talking about shoot it mobile, big, good touch. Play like, like guys like him, you know, a guy like Stromile Swift, who was really, really athletic. He was really, really good. But he was just like. He was kind of like Rasheed a lot. Like, I don't care about getting 20 and 30 points. I just want to win the game, play the right way. And If I get 20, cool. If not, you get 20 and all that stuff. I don't care. So, you know, it's just so many really good players out there. I mean, that's an interesting question. It might pop up in my mind again. I might say something in a second.

[Host 2 (possibly Liner)]

There was, there was. There was. Vernon Maxwell was on a pod, and he had said somebody back in the day. And it was like, I, I actually. I think he ended up passing away, so rest in peace. But he was a European guy. And he said, man, this dude used to give me buckets.

[Host 1 (possibly Ferrara)]

I.

[Host 2 (possibly Liner)]

We'll have caller Eddie, one of our researchers will pop. But it made me think. It's like I didn't even know who the guy was, but, like, this dude was a ball.

[Host 1 (possibly Ferrara)]

Well, you know what this sets up, though? We do a throwback three every week, right. Where you just ask for like a top three from you. And being that you had that swag of I'm the best defender in the world, as you should have as a young man. Yeah, give us the three guys night before. You're like, shoot, I gotta cover this guy tomorrow. All right, give me your. Your Throwback 3 toughest covers for you personally. Strictly for you.

[Bonzi Wells]

Easily. That's easily. I tell anybody, obviously. Colby, you're going to sleep at 8pm you're not. You're not hanging out. You just, you know, we're not. We're not chasing, we're not partying.

[Host 1 (possibly Ferrara)]

None of that.

[Bonzi Wells]

Kobe, early night, number one. No early night. Richard Hamilton. Rip Hamilton. I don't know if you remember the way he's. This run.

[Host 1 (possibly Ferrara)]

Never stopped running.

[Bonzi Wells]

And it's a tie with these two guys because their games kind of changed. But Reggie Miller and Ray Allen were two of the toughest guys to guard. Because I can guard somebody on the wing that's giving you rock steps and all this stuff. But when the guy just won't stop moving and then you have big, strong, burly, big shoulder guys set the screens and you got to. Those are the stuff that's tough to guard. And Reggie Miller and Ray Allen, you know, this is when Ray became a shooter. Before he was this after he was dribbling all that stuff. When he came a shooter, he was just really tough to guard. And the night before. You better get some rest, man.

[Host 1 (possibly Ferrara)]

I'm thinking about now, you guys would have. I think you guys would have beat the crap out of the Pacers after that game seven, man. Oh, because that's who. The Lakers.

[Host 2 (possibly Liner)]

The Lakers swept the Pace.

[Host 1 (possibly Ferrara)]

I know. I think. I think you guys would have swept them too, maybe.

[Host 2 (possibly Liner)]

Yeah.

[Host 1 (possibly Ferrara)]

They had nothing for you fellas.

[Bonzi Wells]

I had a party planned. I'm like, I'm going home. I got a party plan. We're going to win. We're going to win a championship at home. I just had this whole. Mapped out in my mind during the fourth quarter as I'm watching the league go from 13 to 11. It's like, oh, my goodness. So just everything just kind of went away all in. And you know how it Is Matt when you're winning and then when they're walking you down, the time goes so

[Host 2 (possibly Liner)]

slow, you're like, oh, this is left.

[Bonzi Wells]

It's still seven minutes left. Yes.

[Host 2 (possibly Liner)]

I got. Honestly, dude, I got goosebumps talking to you because I can remember. I remember those years as a Laker. And then like, because the Lakers had all the Kings battles when they had, you know, Bobby Jackson and they had. And then you guys, it was always the west, man. No disrespect to the, to the East.

[Host 1 (possibly Ferrara)]

No, that's true.

[Host 2 (possibly Liner)]

The Knicks, but it was the west back then. The name Bonzi was. Was Draws and Petrovic, of course. So, yeah, so Maxwell was talking about. He's like that dude. Yeah. Rest in peace. He used to give him buckets. Well, you know, you talked a lot about Rasheed and. And I do think the doc really highlights what you guys were trying, what you were trying to do and put him together. Just like he is misunderstood. He played with a lot of emotion. It seems like he was a great teammate. How do you think, if you could pinpoint one thing, how do you think he was misunderstood? You know, as you, as you watch it, it's like. Cause he, you know, the technicals and all this stuff, but he just played with so much passion.

[Bonzi Wells]

And that's what it is. That's Rasheed. And Rasheed is what you call a 1 of 1. He's like, if we're going. Everybody's going this way. Sheed is going to go this way. Like, he's not, like, he's not a guy that's going to wear jewelry. He's not a guy that's going to be in the fashion stuff. He don't wear. He don't. He don't care about none of that stuff. All he care about is family, you know, making sure everything is good and his friends. And if you're in that circle, you know, you're in there forever. And then that's what I wanted to show on the DOC because Rasheed didn't care about stats. All he wanted to do was win. I remember, you know, I used to get mad at him. You know, we sitting back, we might be doing a session or whatever we doing, you know, the fellas be pow wowing. And I'd be like, bruh, how you letting Chris Weber and Dirk and tim, them averaging 20 and they being perennial all stars, you only averaging 17, 18. I'm like, dude, you can average 25 a night if you really wanted to. And he looked at me and he said, bons, Think about it. He said, what would it look like if I'm averaging shooting all the balls, averaging 25, 30, you averaging 7 or 8, Dame averaging 10 or whatever, and I get hurt. Now we asking y' all to do something that y' all haven't been doing all year. He said, what if I'm averaging 17 or 18, you at 15 or 16, Dame at 15, Pip at this number. And if one of us go down, it ain't that much. We all in a good rhythm. And selfishly, I was like, oh, Lord, that's more shots for me.

[Host 1 (possibly Ferrara)]

I got more shots for me.

[Bonzi Wells]

Yeah, yeah. But I just. That just let me know the type of dude he is. He's just a team guy. He didn't care about nothing but winning. And he. He could sniff out the bs. He sniffs out the bullshit. So he really, truly believed the refs was cheating. The refs had an agenda. And when the stuff came out with. With. With. With the ref cheating, and we had him on our pod, he admitted that he was cheating to us. And Rashid was always saying this stuff behind the scenes in the door.

[Host 1 (possibly Ferrara)]

You had Don, Is it Donna you had on. I got to listen to that? Man, that's crazy. And he admitted it on your show.

[Bonzi Wells]

Yeah. He was like, man, we had an agenda with y'.

[Host 1 (possibly Ferrara)]

All.

[Host 2 (possibly Liner)]

That's crazy.

[Bonzi Wells]

Go check it out. If y' all get, you know, go check out under our. Let's Get Technical. Under our. Let's Get Technical. When we was doing our pod. But he. He had told us, and Rashid is like, man, I told you Bonds they was cheating us. I told you I wasn't out there tripping. Like, I told you they was. Get every big game they would give me and you, two fouls in the first quarter or Dame or Pip or whatever. So we gotta sit and kind of get the. Like, he was just saying all this conspiracy stuff. And I'm not knowing if it's true or not, but when Adonis, he kind of. Donna, he kind of confirmed a couple things. We was like, wow.

[Host 2 (possibly Liner)]

It's probably for sure true.

[Bonzi Wells]

Yeah. Yeah. Like, wow. I mean, I love the NBA. I'm not ragging on him, but just in that incident when he said that, I was like, wow. She. You know, you. Yeah, yeah. You called it.

[Host 2 (possibly Liner)]

Damn.

[Host 1 (possibly Ferrara)]

Well, then. Because it really does, like, turn into a script, right? You know, Rasheed goes to Detroit. And with that same mindset, though, right? Like, again, could have went in. His numbers could have been way bigger. And if you look at that Pistons team, right? Who's really the star that team. It's like Billups was like the leader, but like he wasn't 25. RIP Hamilton, you mentioned Ben Watt. Like who. Tayshawn. Like, that was a team similar to what you. What was built with that Blazer team, that the pieces just fit together. There was an unselfishness and of course, like I said, like a good Hollywood script. They beat the freaking Lakers, which.

[Host 2 (possibly Liner)]

Yeah.

[Bonzi Wells]

And I said it in the super team too.

[Host 2 (possibly Liner)]

They smacked.

[Bonzi Wells]

I just remember I was so hurt watching him celebrate with them. And those are my brothers.

[Host 1 (possibly Ferrara)]

Bittersweet. Yeah.

[Bonzi Wells]

But I was watching him and I was just sitting back at the house and I was. I was happy for him. But I was like, man, I wish we could explain. Experienced that together because we went through so much and that could have been the final fu. To everybody. Like through it all. Yeah, we still won. And that's. That's the thing that kind of lingers for us because we was right there. But it's just a pesky ass Lakers and, and that Shaq and Kobe. Brian Shaw, you.

[Host 2 (possibly Liner)]

Honestly, if you think about it, I mean Shaq and Kobe were great, obviously, but like you guys definitely were way deeper, way more talented. Like you said, like, it's not even close. Oh, those two were just so. But you had like defi. You had them, you know, they had their role players and then you had two. Two stars, man. Oh, yeah. I feel, I feel for you. I feel.

[Bonzi Wells]

Just think how many times Derek Fisher hit that big shot. Robert Horry hit that big shot. Rick Fox hit that big. The stabilizing shot or whatever. Because everybody knows the defense is going to double team this guy. Everybody knows the flow, but them guys always hit the. Hit that shot. And that's why they're pros and that's why they're legends and what they do.

[Host 2 (possibly Liner)]

I think Bonzi, one really cool thing about the doc that I thought was. And you talk about it just. It really tells your story and highlights all of you guys. But for you. And when you had, you know, the. The quote about the fans and you talk about it in the doc and I thought it was just, you know, you kind of owned up to it. And I think I've read a quote where you. It's like one of the. Maybe the regrets you've had in your career. When you do look back at that, do you. Do you. Do you all. Do you think like, man, I should have never said that or how do you feel when you rewatched it, kind of reliving that moment for you, man, I'm telling you.

[Bonzi Wells]

And I never said this to nobody. I didn't say it. Oh, this is the craziest thing. This is how they take stuff out of context, right? So back then, everybody was trying to get a story, so people were coming in. So they gave us the Sid, sports information director or whatever for the team or whatever. He gave us the heads up. Hey, Sports Illustrator's coming in. We know what's up. They trying to come in and find some dirt or whatever. But it's still Sports Illustrated. You still gonna give em a little something or whatever. So in this particular moment with me, you know, he was asking me all kind of dumbass questions, like, I'm a kid. And like, bro, of course ain't nobody. We know what you're trying to finesse us. Nobody's stupid. We know you're trying to. Trying to go viral before viral was a thing. We know that's what you're trying to do. So we were leaving the game and we played a bad game, just so happened. And they booed us, right? And I remember this like it was yesterday. And he asked me this simple question. How do you feel when the fans boo you? And I said, we hate it. And he said, what are y' all gonna do about it? And I said, well, if we play better, they love us tomorrow. I said, but all we gotta do is play better. Cause it was a game. The next day, it was like two days. I said, all we gotta do is play better. I said, you know how this stuff go.

[Host 2 (possibly Liner)]

Yeah.

[Bonzi Wells]

And so when I read that quote, I said, what the. And I'm talking about I was the beloved Bonzi Wells before that moment. The next day, they was booing me. But I'm thinking to myself, I don't even have to say nothing because Portland knows me. They love me. I'm not. They know the. I lead with love. I might be aggressive on the court when I play, but off the court, I'm the nicest man in the world. And when. And people who know me know. So when he said that and I saw that, I said, oh. And there wasn't no way I could say anything back because the organization took it. And I was like. And then I would look like I was trying to scramble if I would have said something by the time it came out, because. So I just kind of kept the status quo with all of us. It was like, I'm just gonna just let it go. Like, dammit, let it go. She let it go many times. I'm just like, it can't get no worse, you know, but for me, that was the beginning of the end for me, and the fans just kind of turned on me, which I get it, because they don't know me. All they can do is go off what they read and hear. So I understand it now when I'm older, but when I was young, it hurt. It hurt me bad. And it made me bitter to not want to smile when I was on the camera. Made me bitter when I didn't want to smile, and that wasn't who I was. But when I was getting booed all the time and people said disrespectful things to me when I was out, I was just. It just left a bitter mindset.

[Host 2 (possibly Liner)]

Well, yeah, I appreciate that, man. I didn't know. Again, there's a perfect example of, like, you just kind of read what you think and you talk about a little bit. But I appreciate the honesty.

[Bonzi Wells]

Oh, yeah, yeah. Appreciate it.

[Host 2 (possibly Liner)]

Yeah.

[Host 1 (possibly Ferrara)]

And that's why I'm happy that you got this doc made, and I encourage everybody to watch it and.

[Bonzi Wells]

Yeah.

[Host 1 (possibly Ferrara)]

Thinking about, like, even just hearing you say that, too, you know, growing up in New York, there was so much. It always did feel like, because New York's tough town to play and, like, yes, it is. Would try to, like, get a divide with a player in the fandom, right? Like, famous, like Jack McDowell at one point, pitcher for the Yankees, couldn't take it and, like, flipped off the crowd, and that became, like, this whole, like, there. There was. Especially in that era. I feel like, again, maybe she's trying to sell papers or whatever, who knows? But it did feel like there was wedges. They. They tried to incite the fan base, right? Because that's what sells back then, anyway, before social. So. I'm glad you did it, man. I'm glad that you got to tell the story. It's a. It's a. It's an awesome doc. I love a good sports doc, and this one is, like, of the era, so I encourage everyone to watch it. And. Yeah, man, it's good to hear. Like, you still keep up with everyone, too, and.

[Bonzi Wells]

Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. I'm the connector. That's my job. I'm the connector. I'm. I'm cool with everybody, man. I leave with love, man. You know, if I saw y', all, y', all, I would be the same way. Um, I. That's how I always been, you know, on the court. I'm a warrior. I was a warrior. I played hard. You were era. That's how you Got to play. And. And I had a crazy father growing up that wouldn't let me smile on the court because he knew I was a class clown off the court.

[Host 1 (possibly Ferrara)]

So is that a rule, though? Like, no smiling on the court?

[Bonzi Wells]

Oh, 100%. 100%, 100%. I bet I catch you smiling. That's more what it was. I bet I catch you smiling. Unless the game is to, say, triple zeros and it's over with. Because I was a class clown. I was voted class clown my senior year. And he's like, man, if you could. He used to always tell me, he said, man, if you ever took this game seriously and quit smiling so much, you could be good. So that's what it became. And then it became a threat, like, all right, and I'm tired of asking, if I see you smiling again on the court, I'm going to do that thing to you. So it just became me trying to take the game seriously, and that's all he wanted.

[Host 1 (possibly Ferrara)]

Well, I think that's.

[Host 2 (possibly Liner)]

You were a baller, man.

[Host 1 (possibly Ferrara)]

Yeah. And I think that's what the fans did love about you. And that's what. As. As a true basketball fan, all you ever want to feel is that you really want to win and you're taking this shit serious. And as much as maybe you wanted to smile, I think. I mean, when I watched you, I was like, that dude wants to fucking win. That dude wants this game bad. You know, it's easy to say, of course we want to win, but there is a difference, right? Like, yeah, it's just wanting to win and, like, needing to win.

[Bonzi Wells]

It's needing to win.

[Host 1 (possibly Ferrara)]

You guys had that need to win.

[Bonzi Wells]

Yes, sir.

[Host 1 (possibly Ferrara)]

With that team.

[Host 2 (possibly Liner)]

So.

[Host 1 (possibly Ferrara)]

Dude, can't thank you enough for doing this again. The DOC is unbelievable. Encourage everyone to watch it. And, hey, man, let's hit up. Let's. Let's tee it up. One of these days. I know. Now we gotta go. Hopefully you don't want to win that much in golf, because I, you know, you'll take some.

[Host 2 (possibly Liner)]

Every show we do, we always end up trying to play golf with everybody, because that's all. All of us do.

[Bonzi Wells]

I love golf, man. Golf changed my life, man. I've been playing golf about 20 years now, and it's just. It's just the best game ever invented. I mean, there's no. You know, y' all know. Y' all know the journey. Y' all know the journey, and it's

[Host 2 (possibly Liner)]

a hard journey, though.

[Bonzi Wells]

I hit the best eight iron in the world today, about 175. About five feet from the hole today. So I'm still feeling that.

[Host 1 (possibly Ferrara)]

You still got that?

[Bonzi Wells]

I still got that on me a little bit.

[Host 2 (possibly Liner)]

There's nothing better than hitting the great golf shot, man. Oh, God.

[Bonzi Wells]

Yeah, definitely, Definitely.

[Host 2 (possibly Liner)]

All right, man, we appreciate the luck

[Host 1 (possibly Ferrara)]

and yeah, we'll talk to you soon.

[Host 2 (possibly Liner)]

Good luck with the dog.

[Bonzi Wells]

Thank you, man. Blessings to you fellas. Thanks for having me. All right, peace.

[Host 1 (possibly Ferrara)]

All right, big thank you to Bonzi Wells. That Jordan story, man, smells like success.

[Host 2 (possibly Liner)]

Just gave him a hug at 3 in the morning.

[Host 1 (possibly Ferrara)]

I just love that he threw his clothes on. He's like, I gotta get there. Running through, trying to get there.

[Host 2 (possibly Liner)]

So good, man.

[Host 1 (possibly Ferrara)]

All right. What a great dude we are in honor of the jailblazer. And I just want to point out too, we've said this in like jailblazers is not on any of my lists because now also after talking to Bonzi, that nickname to me, although catchy and memorable. Yeah, it's not like a deserved, I don't know, I, I, I feel totally different about that nickname now after all these years and after getting the story.

[Host 2 (possibly Liner)]

Yeah, I don't, it's not necessarily the greatest nickname, I don't think. But I mean, look again. The Doc, I think, takes a deeper dive into those guys and the personalities. And honestly, I think I think the league was out to get them. I mean, Bonzi talks about that a little bit, but the DOC talks about that. I think they were just one of those in that era where they were kind of being out to get got, you know, so.

[Host 1 (possibly Ferrara)]

All right, so here's how we're gonna do this. Matt, why don't. Because there's so many to choose from in our favorite nicknames. Why don't you go your three and I will comment and then I will go my three and bring the noise. So you want to go count it backward, three to number one.

[Host 2 (possibly Liner)]

Yeah. So I'm gonna go. I mean, I could easily been number one for. But I don't want to be a homer. So I'm going to go number three. Showtime Lakers. I'm not really sure if there's a better name than just like, hey, it's Showtime, right? It's, it's Showtime the ball. Like, it's Showtime. So obviously I'd air with Magic Kareem, and we had James Worthy on a couple weeks ago, but Showtime Lakers is pretty sweet. This one is interesting. Number two, I'm going the Bash Brothers. Oh, I know.

[Host 1 (possibly Ferrara)]

I like it.

[Host 2 (possibly Liner)]

As a baseball fan growing up, obviously I love baseball. And in the frickin. I don't even care. The steroid era. It don't matter to me. You had Mark McGuire and you had Jose Canseco. Just two absolute units batting back to back and just hitting absolute nukes every, I mean, unbelievable. That one just stuck with me. And then, listen, dude, I'm going to go number one. This is going to surprise you, but I still think we talked about them recently. They are still culturally relevant today as they were, you know, 20, 30 years ago. The Fab Five.

[Host 1 (possibly Ferrara)]

Yeah, that's, that's the fact that the

[Host 2 (possibly Liner)]

Fab Five, to me, it's still like they, they just changed. Like it was like them and like, A.I. right, kind of changed just the way the culture of basketball and the fact. And they were together for March Madness a couple weeks ago. Michigan won it all, and they were all together. And I was just like, this is so rad. These guys are back together. They didn't even win a championship. And they're still, they're still being talked about as sort of transcending the game of hoops back then. So again, I had, I had a bunch of other ones, man. I'm curious that, that would be my top three nicknames, though.

[Host 1 (possibly Ferrara)]

So the cool thing about Showtime, besides the obvious and something you and I talked about off the air, it's just one word, Showtime. A lot of these nicknames have like the, the, the, the, like a bunch of.

[Host 2 (possibly Liner)]

Yeah, when you say Showtime, you know, Showtime. Yeah, that was the Lakers.

[Host 1 (possibly Ferrara)]

So that's always what made it cool. You know, I like those things that are one word. Great list. Great list. You really can't, you know, there's really everyone. I'm curious to hear everyone else's on Social too, because some people are going to claim. I'm going to start real quick, Matt. I'm gonna give you the worst one first. I don't know why this became the nickname for this team. I, I, I'll say, I'll look right in the camera, say, I think it's stupid. I think it's a stupid nickname. The Heatles. For the Heat team. For the LeBron. Dwyane Wade, he, they were called, they

[Host 2 (possibly Liner)]

were called the Heatles. I've never heard that before.

[Host 1 (possibly Ferrara)]

Like the Beatles. Like, you gotta go see them in person. Yeah, we all went and saw them in person. And unless you were from Miami, you booed them. I don't know if anyone went to go see the beatles in the 60s, by the way.

[Host 2 (possibly Liner)]

That was, I never even heard of the Heatles.

[Host 1 (possibly Ferrara)]

You never heard of the Heatles. No, that was a thing. That was a thing for sure. And easily. And I'm sorry. I just will refuse America's team. I will not put that. I just won't do it. Whatever you want. I just will not do it. Okay, that being said, I'm gonna go number three. This is a personal favorite. Hate me if you want. I'm going. Run tmc.

[Host 2 (possibly Liner)]

I had them honorable mention. So sick, bro.

[Host 1 (possibly Ferrara)]

It's so specific to me. So you could argue with yourself on this one if you want. But just that generation Mullen, Mitch Richmond, I mean, Tim Hardaway just factor.

[Host 2 (possibly Liner)]

They were nasty. They were. They were another three that were like, like kind of had that bad boy image a little bit.

[Bonzi Wells]

Right?

[Host 2 (possibly Liner)]

You know, like a little bit of toughness up there. NorCal. Yeah. Run TMC was sick. They were on my. They were my top 10 for sure.

[Host 1 (possibly Ferrara)]

God, there's so many, man. I couldn't allow myself.

[Host 2 (possibly Liner)]

Where are you going? I don't know where you're going with this.

[Host 1 (possibly Ferrara)]

Well, number two, I'm going with the Dream Team. I just think that's as iconic as Showtime in terms of like my iconicness. That is as iconic as anything you could think of. You hear it. You know exactly what it is. I'm going homer on my number one. I'm just sorry. I am. And I. I'm sorry for you with your Dodgers that you don't have a cool, fancy nickname for you.

[Host 2 (possibly Liner)]

We don't need a nickname.

[Host 1 (possibly Ferrara)]

Two time champion Dodger. Well, back to back champs. I should say the Bronx Bombers. Come on.

[Host 2 (possibly Liner)]

I like the Bass Brothers better than the Bronx Bombers.

[Host 1 (possibly Ferrara)]

Well, the Bash Brothers are cool for that moment. I remember the elbow thing. You might get everyone with that one because that one is fantastic. But it's just hard when I think of the nicknames after Dream Team. To me it's. It's Bronx Bombers. But we left a lot off. I almost put. And I can't again allow myself to do the Jets. But do you remember the sack exchange that. The New York sack exchange. That was a dude.

[Host 2 (possibly Liner)]

The greatest. The greatest show on turf is pretty cool. I had obviously the bad boys. The Pistons just being called.

[Host 1 (possibly Ferrara)]

Sure, yeah. Famous. Yeah.

[Host 2 (possibly Liner)]

I thought you might have said the captain. The captain's a. I mean, you think captain's great.

[Host 1 (possibly Ferrara)]

I just really went more with the.

[Host 2 (possibly Liner)]

The team.

[Host 1 (possibly Ferrara)]

The team. Like, I couldn't do the purple people leaders because I didn't really know that Vikings team. But that's a cool one. The Hogs. There's just so many. So let us know yours. We left out a bunch.

[Host 2 (possibly Liner)]

Good ones.

[Host 1 (possibly Ferrara)]

Who was your number one again? You went bash brothers.

[Host 2 (possibly Liner)]

I went Fab 5.

[Host 1 (possibly Ferrara)]

Fab 5. Fab 5. Fab five. Bronx bombers.

[Host 2 (possibly Liner)]

I could have had Showtime one easily.

[Host 1 (possibly Ferrara)]

But I like that you didn't go full homer on me. I appreciate it. All right, well, that's it for today. Thanks again. The Bonzi Wells. Go check out Jailblazers. Untold Jailblazers on Netflix right now. And we will be back next week.