The Josh Willis Interview with Throwing Fits

Summary

Throwing Fits – The Josh Willis Interview with Throwing Fits

Date: December 15, 2025
Guest: Josh Willis (Co-founder, designer & creative director of Second Layer)
Hosts: Lawrence & Chris

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Episode Overview

This episode features Josh Willis, the multi-hyphenate mind behind LA’s Second Layer, a brand acclaimed for its nuanced, tactile approach to American menswear. The conversation is a candid, wide-ranging look at building an independent brand in a tough industry, the realities of running and growing Second Layer, the LA scene, textile obsessions, and balancing authenticity and evolution with hard business lessons. Josh, joined in New York by his wife Shauna, details the state of menswear, his passion for materials, and reveals what keeps him inspired (and afloat) twelve years into Second Layer's journey.

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Key Discussion Points

1. Second Layer – The Realities of Running an Independent Brand

• Multiple hats: Josh describes being "the janitor" of the company, doing everything from accounting to marketing and cleaning up after others.
  Quote: “Most of the days having your own brand, dude, 90% of the time, it just gets dumped on you daily.” (01:54)
• Authenticity and keeping it small: Second Layer’s reputation is built on their authenticity—real references and work, not just designing for trends.
• Family business dynamic: The brand is largely handled by a close-knit team and Josh’s brother, Jake (“playboy”), who handles customer service.

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2. Fit Check & Product Nerding (02:27–18:09)

• Josh breaks down his clothes and their stories in a classic Throwing Fits segment:
  • Boots: Second Layer’s Rider boots – Goodyear-welted, brown suede, made in Italy.
    Development time: “A couple months, in Italy, at our factory there.” (03:06)
  • Denim: Big Poppy trousers, “blacked raw,” and an indigo rinse—Josh’s most-worn jeans and his favorite fit for big thighs.
  • Knits: The Vex V-neck in mohair—focus on textile quality.
    “Knits are probably one of my favorite things to work on because the yarn, you always know what you’re paying for based on what the yarn you’re getting.” (09:37)
  • Jewelry: Good Art silver, a Rolex Explorer (gift from his father).
  • Accessories: J.Crew x Harris Tweed Dodgers cap, Port Tanger shades.
  • Underwear: Vintage Nike boxer briefs—“I cannot find them again!”
• Deep dive into fabrication: differences in yarns, mohair (the itchiness!), and pursuit of “real” materials.
• Customer Service Q&A: Sizing quirks and why the brand doesn’t use strict size charts.
  • Jake handles CS: “That’s a Jake problem.” (12:23)

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3. Origins: Roots, LA, Japan, and Brand Ethos (18:12–29:00)

• Josh’s journey from skate/surf culture in Riverside/Inland Empire to fashion in LA, deep involvement in the creative recreation sneaker scene, and significant time spent sourcing and referencing in Japan.
  • “Japan definitely has my heart forever.” (08:58)
• Baseball and surfing influences: “You’re like Jerry Lorenzo in that way.” (14:42)
• On LA vs. NY: The good (outerwear weather, tight crew) and the bad (rats, superficial neighborhood culture).
  • “Superficial taste” LA experiences for NYers visiting—LA is modular, a “smattering of villages.” (35:39)
• Community: Second Layer’s clients become family; nicknames abound (Baby Ray, JDub).

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4. Second Layer’s Product Philosophy (29:04–41:21)

• Product is tactile and “sexy”: “Product first, it’s so tactile… as a fabric nerd, textile is everything.” (29:04)
• Standout recent fabric: Recycled Tencel shirts/jackets and baggy pants for SS25.
• Leather: A constant quest for the right tanneries (currently shifting Tuscany vendors).
• Moves from LA to Italy/Portugal/Japan for higher standards in tailoring and fabrication.
• Josh on the “pull” of Second Layer: “Wear Second Layer, you pull… that would be my elevator pitch.” (33:06)
  • Elevator pitch, tongue-in-cheek: “No article of clothing can turn you into the man or woman you want to be… without you having your first layer figured out. That’s why we’re Second Layer.” (34:07)

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5. Brand Growth, Business Realities, and Retail (41:21–54:15)

• Business vs. Product:
  “The brand and the product are becoming dialed. The business has been what we’ve been lacking." (40:38)
• Production struggles: Balancing perfection, scaling up, being on time for two seasons in a row—a major highlight of 2025.
• Margin & exclusivity: Small production runs (sometimes only 20 units for leathers).
• Growth markets: The US (esp. LA and NY) and Japan—“Japan is how you know it’s good.” (46:01)
• Differences in US vs. Japanese customers: Slow, methodical shopping from Japanese clients, Americans more impulsive/repeat buyers.
• Retail dreams: Plans for a brick-and-mortar store in LA or Newport Beach; debate over main LA or destination location.

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6. Footwear, Categories & The Modern Menswear Landscape (56:00–63:00)

• Footwear expansion: Obsessed with “future classic” boots; craving to add a sneaker, but bemoaning the state of sneakers in recent years.
• Leathers: Josh’s go-to is Second Layer’s current leopard leather jacket (“If I could only keep one…” 60:37); the Mad Dog jacket is a brand signature and “platonic ideal.”
• Canvas/wool options: As entry-level alternatives to leather for new clients.
• Self-funding the brand: Drain-your-bank scary, but necessary. Support from friends, family, "the hood"—not VCs.
  Quote: “I had no money to lose… I had a decent amount of Creative Rec money. There was no thought into it—it was like, this is what we’re gonna do.” (63:12)

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7. Survival, Community, and Money (69:49–74:59)

• Broke stories:
  “Hiding your whip so it doesn’t get repoed… this life isn’t for everybody dog.” (70:13)
• On real wealth: Surviving challenges (deaths, setbacks, betrayals) led to a focus on health, family, and spirit.
• Working with his brother Jake: “Brothers come before everything… whose car are we taking?” (73:20)
• Division of labor: Ant handles graphics/design, Jake does ops/accounting, Josh leads fabrics, new shapes, and the business “janitor.”
• Real talk: Frequent arguments, but always move on quickly.

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8. Underrated, Methodical, and Out of Step (by Choice) (77:12–81:22)

• Second Layer as “underrated”: Intentional, methodical approach—never chasing hype for hype’s sake.
  • “Whenever anybody has ever zigged, we’ve zig-zagged.” (78:53)
• The brand’s client: The confident outsider, never fully at home in any scene.
  • “Never belonged somewhere, but just had so much confidence at the same time.” (82:09)
• Price and duplicates:
  • Never chasing “mid”—always choosing the best fabrics, even if that means a higher price point.
    “I never woke up thinking, I’m gonna make the best mid product.” (82:55)
  • Others may copy the ‘vibe,’ but not the real quality.

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9. American Menswear & Industry Critique (86:32–94:09)

• Industry health: Sees “cheap tricks” and trend-chasing, but points to bright spots—Erd (Henry), Guillermo’s new work, acknowledges Rick Owens’ commercial dominance.
• The business model is “broken”: Net terms, late payments, the need for large cash to scale—a system favoring big backers. Quote: “You’re paying for six months in advance as a brand, then waiting past that net terms time to collect… That’s not a business, it’s a hobby.” (91:19)
• Wholesale funding DTC: “You need that wholesale business to fund your retail business.” (93:41)

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10. Style Guidance & The Future (94:09–98:46)

• How men should dress in 2025/26:
  • “Dress like you give a fuck. Loosen up on the trousers. Invest in key pieces with timeless shape—like a leather, a Mad Dog. Make sure your first layer is on point... no article of clothing can do it for you.” (94:26)
• Most-worn items (2025): Rider boots and J.Crew hat.
• Best value in footwear: Second Layer’s Charo boot vs. classic square toes.
• Last non-Second Layer purchase: A Row beanie (gifted to wife Shauna).
• Women's product: Small but growing female clientele, many women “steal from their dudes,” suggesting unisex appeal is working.

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11. LA Fashion Critique & Broader Cultural Jabs (98:23–101:06)

• LA fashion “victims”:
  • “That TikTok swag… balloony type… dumbass hair.” (98:32)
  • “Rather see an Edgar than that broccoli swag.”
• Vintage kids: Likes vintage, but warns against wearing nothing but era costumes or archive for the sake of it—“If you haven’t been to Japan, miss me.”

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12. Philosophy, Generosity & Personal Life (101:39–106:54)

• Experiences over things: For Christmas, Josh and Shauna forwent gifts to provide for a local family in need.
• Preferred spends: Travel, food experiences ("surfing in San Sebastián, Basque cheesecake, making carne asada at home").
• Culinary love: “J Dub’s” home burgers beat LA restaurants, and family carne asada is his ideal cook-out.

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13. Constructive Criticism & Wrap-Up (108:25–end)

• Josh to the Throwing Fits boys: “Keep doing what you’re doing… you guys are a bright spot in a world where people take things too seriously… I listen, I laugh, I learn.” (110:04)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Independent Struggle:
  “This life isn’t for everybody, dog. You could have a million dollars in your account one day and by the end, it’s negative… what doesn’t break you, makes you tougher.” (70:13)
• On Second Layer’s “Pull”:
  “You wear Second Layer, you pull.” (33:06)
• On Brand Identity:
  “No article of clothing… can turn you into the man or woman you want to be… without you having your first layer figured out. That’s why we’re Second Layer.” (34:07)
• On the Business Model:
  "You’re paying for six months in advance as a brand, then waiting past that net terms time to collect… That’s not a business, it’s a hobby at some point.” (91:19)
• On Menswear Client:
  “Our client is the person who never really had a space, never felt comfortable where they were, but had confidence.” (82:09)
• On the Price Question:
  “You can’t buy a Ferrari at Honda price.” (85:13)
• On Copycats:
  “Maybe they feel they have the same type of sauce, too… but you can't do that in a polyurethane jacket.” (86:07)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• Fit check: 02:27–18:09
• Second Layer’s specialness explained: 25:13–29:04
• Textile/Fabric talk: 29:04–31:59
• LA style/industry critique: 35:39–38:01, 86:32–88:21
• Business struggles & growth: 41:21–43:43
• Future plans (retail/shop): 51:40–52:55
• Price point and fabric realities: 82:46–85:13
• Style guidance for 2025/6: 94:09–95:13
• Personal philosophy/generosity: 101:39–102:45

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Where to Find Second Layer & Josh

• Instagram:
  • @secondlayer_us
  • @secondlayer_player_jw (Josh – “J Dub”)
• Shop: Second Layer

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Tone & Language

The episode is casual, honest, and peppered with the self-deprecating humor and camaraderie that define Throwing Fits. Josh is candid, thoughtful, at times vulnerable but always real—a craftsman and hustler who cares more about the fabric and the family than the hype. The hosts match his energy, blending in-jokes, industry insider slang, and love for “grown dirtbag” authenticity.

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In Short

Come for the gear talk, stay for a hard-earned education in building an underrated, beloved brand from scratch—and all the tribulations, small victories, and wisdom gained along the way.

Transcript

[Josh Willis]

Whether you're solving murders during breakfast, cracking cold cases on your commute, or playing amateur detective at bedtime, Amazon Music's got millions of podcast episodes waiting. Just download the Amazon music app and start listening to your favorite true crime podcasts ad free included with Prime. Hey, Ryan Reynolds here wishing you a very happy half off holiday because right now Mint Mobile is offering you the gift of 50% off unlimited.

[Lawrence]

To be clear, that's half price, not half the service. Mint is still premium unlimited wireless for a great price.

[Josh Willis]

So that means a half day. You know, give it a [e-mail] Switch.

[Lawrence]

Upfront payment of $45 for three month.

[Josh Willis]

Plan equivalent to $15 per month required. New customer offer for first three months only. Speed slow. 135 GB of networks busy taxes and fees extra. See mobile.com Suave.

[Lawrence]

Our guest this week has accomplished one of the genuinely rarest feats on earth. Having an LA based brand that doesn't suck butt. He's a man of many layers, creating tailor made daily wear from one of the best brands in the world. That is still somehow underrated. And maybe that's on purpose. He took a brief pause during his east coast vacation and warm up in the studio and rip a pod with two of his biggest fans. Get off his wave kooks because here to chat the current state of American menswear, sexy textiles and romanticizing the past, the co founder, designer, creative director and janitor of Second Layer, Josh Willis. Josh, how the hell are you?

[Josh Willis]

Yo. That was crazy.

[Lawrence]

How's my, how's my swap of se.

[Josh Willis]

That was amazing. That was great. That, that, that definitely that's why I came.

[Chris]

All right, that's New York Hospital.

[Josh Willis]

See you guys. Yeah. Yeah, you can go out into the cold now. No, I'm good. I'm gonna stay in here, drink some beers.

[Lawrence]

You're the, you're the chatty or second layer.

[Josh Willis]

Most days.

[Lawrence]

Most days it's about messy boys or what's going on there.

[Josh Willis]

You know what? I'm the. I'm the janitor. I am the. I'm everything. And you know, we were, I was joking, you know, but it's really not a joke.

[Lawrence]

Sometimes he looks at his life.

[Josh Willis]

It, it gets, it gets serious. Most days, like this morning, I was playing, playing accountant and yikes. Last night I was playing, I was playing a pr, marketing, you know, person. Which are, those are the fun ones. But most of the days having your own brand, dude, 90 of the time, it's all, it just gets dumped on you daily.

[Chris]

Oh, man. Starting out Positive over here.

[Josh Willis]

I love this daily. We're gonna get into, we're gonna get.

[Lawrence]

We're gonna get into how much you have to clean up and eat and wipe and everything. But first things first.

[Josh Willis]

Yeah.

[Chris]

Fit check, dude. What are we wearing today to pod all second layer. I mean, you could walk us through the product specifically.

[Josh Willis]

Yeah, y. Mostly second layer. I got the 8 inch Rider boots from this season. The boot of the year, the brown suede. Thank you. Thank you. I. I think so. We worked, we worked. We worked a while on, on this last. I think the. I think the toe shape is great. Last shape is good. The construction is amazing. The Goodyear Welting kind of, you know, will ensure that it lasts forever pretty much.

[Lawrence]

What's the development time on every boot or foot piece of whatever you guys do?

[Josh Willis]

It depends, man. It depends.

[Lawrence]

What about these?

[Josh Willis]

This one was fairly, was fairly fast. I'd say couple months. Couple months, you know. Yeah. Doing it relative. Yeah. In Italy. Yeah, in Italy. Our, Our factory there. Sergio, he's. He's the. Steven's.

[Chris]

The Italian guys think of these like shapes that you're like pitching.

[Josh Willis]

You know what, they're not wearing them, are they? I think Steven's actually, I think he's from the UK actually, and he lives and works there. But he loved it. He was like, oh, man, I haven't seen this in a while. I've been wanting this. Sick. But most of the time you're correct. We walk in with things and you know, with references or with things we've done in the past. And most of the time they haven't worked in the past. And we're just redoing them again because I finally think that they, they need, they can, they need some air time.

[Chris]

Sure.

[Josh Willis]

You know, and.

[Lawrence]

Yeah, but they're like, as long as the check clears, they work for you.

[Josh Willis]

True, true, true.

[Lawrence]

As long as the accounting is on his P's and Q's.

[Chris]

Yes.

[Josh Willis]

It never, it never equals out. I don't know why. I don't. I have no idea how.

[Lawrence]

And, and you're wearing some no show socks, is that right?

[Josh Willis]

Never. No shows. Never ever, no shows. I am. You know, I, I. You scared to see him ride. You know what? I, I had the decision to wear my Nike. My Nike socks that go all the way past up to definitely up towards my calf. No, I got the, the smart wolves on.

[Chris]

Okay.

[Josh Willis]

Smart wolves.

[Lawrence]

Keep those little piggies warm.

[Josh Willis]

Yeah. Because like you said, it's literally. I think it's the coldest week Brick bro. So far.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Lawrence]

Dead S.B.

[Josh Willis]

Yeah. And the day I left, I actually surfed in the afternoon. I texted you a photo. You know, it was. It was.

[Lawrence]

Bring a thicker wetsuit.

[Josh Willis]

Yeah. I wasn't flexing, but this is a.

[Chris]

Reverse vacation going to shittier weather.

[Josh Willis]

Yeah.

[Lawrence]

Bring the 12 mil.

[Josh Willis]

Yeah.

[Lawrence]

Wetsuit, baby.

[Josh Willis]

Yeah. 12 mil. Yeah, exactly.

[Lawrence]

I don't know what. I don't know what's.

[Josh Willis]

Yeah, that would be a lot. That. A lot of rubber. That'd be a lot of rubber.

[Chris]

Michelin man, dude. I rock away.

[Josh Willis]

I don't.

[Lawrence]

With rubber, bro.

[Josh Willis]

Good for you.

[Lawrence]

Speaking which. Raw denim.

[Josh Willis]

Yeah, this is the. This is the. The black Big poppy. Tasty. Yeah, yeah, this is. This is a raw black that we do. The big poppy has kind of become my.

[Chris]

Blacked raw by Big poppy.

[Josh Willis]

Blacked. This. The. This is. This is, you know, quickly become my favorite, my favorite bottom, my favorite trouser denim piece. I wear this all the time. I got the.

[Lawrence]

The big poppy or the black.

[Josh Willis]

Specifically the big Poppy. I got the indigo raws. Or it's kind of like a first rinse raw that we did, and I've been wearing those. They're kind of coming out pretty good, you know, turning.

[Chris]

I'm a fan.

[Josh Willis]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Lawrence]

Food brand is actually a denim brand.

[Josh Willis]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Chris]

We'll get into categories.

[Lawrence]

You thought they were a leathers brand.

[Josh Willis]

I, I, I, I, I hope. I love to sell leathers.

[Chris]

Good margins.

[Josh Willis]

Yeah, that'll change your. That'll change a week. You know what I mean? But, yeah, Big poppy. Love this. Love this fit. It's a. It's a. It's a riff on a. On your classic 500. One just rises a little longer. The leg is a tad bit fuller, but it. It has the reminiscence of that, of that classic feel, but you just don't know.

[Chris]

Good for guys with big thighs.

[Josh Willis]

I, I think so, too. Yeah, I think so, too. And I like to wear them a little bit higher as well. It doesn't say that. I don't go one size, one size up and kind of, like, schlub around.

[Chris]

Right.

[Josh Willis]

They're kind of like a little bit bigger, saggier. And then I got my favorite tea, my lucky tea. My. My Smith's tea. Oh, that. I got my first trip to Japan in, like, 2004. Something like that.

[Chris]

Drop a band on that. A band on the band.

[Josh Willis]

Not even, like, a couple hundred bucks.

[Lawrence]

Really? These are creative recreation days. Totally.

[Josh Willis]

Yes. Yes. That's where I. That's where I cut my chops, dude. Yeah.

[Lawrence]

Wait, who's. Who's the. Who's the creative director?

[Josh Willis]

Rich? No.

[Lawrence]

Was it Bashemi?

[Josh Willis]

No, no, no, no.

[Chris]

But she worked on Gourmet.

[Lawrence]

Gourmet.

[Josh Willis]

My bad. Same, same. Yeah.

[Chris]

Just another brand that made timeless sneakers that could look good today and sold.

[Lawrence]

For a billion dollars.

[Josh Willis]

Yeah, I wish they did. I wish they did it. You know what? We had a. We had a great run. I got to learn. I got to learn, you know, very early in my career, like, what it. What it takes to go from negative nothing to, you know, 50, 60, 70 million.

[Chris]

Sure.

[Josh Willis]

In that timeframe, you know, in the early 2000, mid 2000.

[Lawrence]

And you're designing sneakers.

[Josh Willis]

I was doing everything. You know, it was like, dude, it was. It was literally. I was the first employee. And so, like, I literally started out doing everything. That's how I started my career.

[Chris]

A janitor of all trades, as they say.

[Josh Willis]

Yeah, yeah. Taking out the trash. That's how I started the trash.

[Chris]

Trash.

[Josh Willis]

Cleaning up the office. Taking out the trash. I said. I said, yo, I know a couple of stores that I go to and I shop at. Let me take these shoes. And then I became the sales guy, and then I became.

[Lawrence]

Sending you Japan.

[Josh Willis]

Yeah. And then we would, you know, I got to travel the world ten times over, which has become, you know, probably the most important thing in my life.

[Lawrence]

That I'm in Japan quite often.

[Josh Willis]

Yeah, Japan, obviously, Europe a lot.

[Lawrence]

You go. Okay. We asked last week's guest, Daphne, who had just come from Japan, do you go there with an empty bag just knowing you're gonna blow, Go crazy.

[Josh Willis]

That would mean that I have enough money to blow a bag.

[Chris]

You're browsing. Not necessarily shopping.

[Josh Willis]

No, I mean reference pieces. Yeah, it's a. It's a buy a bag thing, you know.

[Lawrence]

Okay.

[Josh Willis]

Yeah, it's a. It's a. Buy a duffel, like one of those cheaper ones if you find one. And then it's split amongst the three of us, you know, me and Jake, so we could fit it mostly in. But, yeah, Japan, definitely. One of. One of the places that has my heart forever.

[Lawrence]

You are a rolling stone. What about the knit on top?

[Josh Willis]

The knit? Yeah. I believe you have this one in the brown. Yeah, this is the Vex V neck in the mohair.

[Lawrence]

I've been wearing it a lot.

[Josh Willis]

Okay, good, good.

[Lawrence]

I'm glad. Very glad.

[Josh Willis]

It's perfect for right now. I mean, you saw. I had this, and I layered it with my. With my shearling vest from this season and my rider jacket that I've probably had. I think that was the first season we ever did it.

[Chris]

Oh, really?

[Josh Willis]

Yeah.

[Chris]

Oh, gee.

[Josh Willis]

Yeah, oh, gee. Og, your favorite denim brand is actually a knits brand. The knits are great. I. You know what? Knits are probably one of my favorite things to work on.

[Chris]

Why is that?

[Josh Willis]

Because the yarn, it's. It's for a lot of reasons. One reason is, you know, you always know what you're paying for based on what the yarn you're getting. You know what I mean? So, like, whatever quality the yarn is is going to be what you're, you know, what you're getting. Essentially thinking like an accountant.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Josh Willis]

Minus, you know, minus the cut and the fit and whatever. But, like, you can look at a knit and, you know, see a tag or feel it and know it, but fabric first. Yeah. You're like, oh, it's 100% cashmere. Yeah, that's a, you know, that's a $800 quarter zip or whatever. $1,000, you know, pullover. You could feel it and be like, that might be synthetic, you know, fire trap. Yeah, totally. And then you're like, yeah, that's, you know, it is $200. You get, you know, you get it. So that's why, like, you kind of get what you pay for. And for me, can't really do, like.

[Lawrence]

Smoke and mirrors with.

[Josh Willis]

For me, I don't think so. You know, but mohair is also a different story because you can get, you know, you can get a synthetic version of a mohair, and usually it's not as itchy. You know, mohair is pretty fudgeing itchy sometimes. You know, so that's, you know, that's something to think about. But we try not to work with synthetic yarns at all.

[Chris]

Thank God you're doing.

[Lawrence]

My advice to itchy mohair wears. Don't be pussy. Just.

[Josh Willis]

I agree.

[Chris]

Don't be a fucking baby about it.

[Josh Willis]

I agree. I agree.

[Chris]

Wear an undershirt. I don't know.

[Lawrence]

Totally, totally. Stop having sensitive skin.

[Josh Willis]

I mean, you can imagine the type of customer service questions we get.

[Lawrence]

Oh, what's the most.

[Josh Willis]

What's the.

[Lawrence]

What's the most frequent question you get?

[Josh Willis]

The most frequent question. Well, for us, we've learned this, you know, over the years. Our. Our product descriptions are. Are very. Our vernacular.

[Chris]

Yeah. They're voicey. They're fun.

[Josh Willis]

Yes.

[Lawrence]

They're suave.

[Josh Willis]

And we don't really. We don't really have a size chart. We kind of ask for an inquiry for a certain size because some people, it's annoying sometimes. Some people, they're like, they know one measurement on Their body, right? It's like.

[Lawrence]

It's like four inches.

[Chris]

Y.

[Josh Willis]

It's cold today. I don't know. Yeah. You know, they know one measurement on their body. They're like, I'm a large. And you're like, what the does that mean, dude? Like, you know what I mean? And. And now they're a large in everything, right? You know, it's like, no, bro, you're not a large in everything. You know, so we ask for inquire inquiries for sizes, and then we give people a, you know, a range. We say, hey, do you want it to fit like this? Right? This is the measurement. Blah, blah.

[Chris]

It's good customer service, but I can see how that could be very. We tried.

[Lawrence]

That is a step beyond, like.

[Chris]

We try.

[Josh Willis]

We try.

[Lawrence]

Most people do. Yeah.

[Josh Willis]

Not saying we're great at it, but we guy. Okay.

[Lawrence]

Are you head of customer service?

[Josh Willis]

That's Jake. So.

[Chris]

Okay.

[Josh Willis]

Jake.

[Chris]

That's a Jake problem.

[Josh Willis]

That's a Jake problem.

[Lawrence]

For sure.

[Josh Willis]

For sure.

[Lawrence]

Jake from second layer.

[Josh Willis]

Yeah. Yeah. That's a Jake. That's a Jake problem. So everybody, customer service questions. It's Jake.

[Lawrence]

What's.

[Josh Willis]

What's Jake's number? Yeah, 949. Hey, what about.

[Lawrence]

She has pennies or should we talk hardware or.

[Josh Willis]

The hat.

[Lawrence]

What's the hat? What's on the. Oh, the chef.

[Josh Willis]

My favorite find of the year. Literally J. Crew, and it's Harris tweed.

[Chris]

Okay.

[Josh Willis]

And I, like, we were. We were in the mall for some reason, and we walked in the J. Crew. Because I saw it. I saw it, like, in there. I was like. And I'm always up for a good new hat.

[Chris]

The Dodger blue is speaking on you, like the green goblin mask, dude. Yeah, the. Yeah, the.

[Josh Willis]

The Dodger blue is my.

[Lawrence]

Yeah, but you have some of the best hair in men's. Thank you, Menswear.

[Josh Willis]

Thank you. I try. Yeah. I got the. Yeah, I got the lettuce, baby. Sure.

[Lawrence]

Is it the salt spray?

[Josh Willis]

I've been blessed. I've been blessed. You know, my Grandpa lived till 96, and he had a full head of hair.

[Lawrence]

Hell, yeah.

[Josh Willis]

Yeah. Good genes. Not.

[Lawrence]

Not just those.

[Josh Willis]

Yeah.

[Lawrence]

But your hatsman. I am.

[Josh Willis]

I am. I am now for some reason. And especially the Dodgers thing has been my. You know, especially with everything that's been going on last.

[Chris]

Congrats, dude, on ruining baseball.

[Josh Willis]

No, like the Steven Victor of menswear.

[Chris]

I.

[Josh Willis]

You know what?

[Chris]

Big Za.

[Josh Willis]

Josh Willis, dude. I mean, honestly, this year, I have a lot to say about baseball. I grew up playing baseball. Baseball is, like, my thing. I coached baseball. And.

[Lawrence]

And what age did you coach?

[Josh Willis]

High school. I coached high school baseball after. Maybe after I was in High School. 20, I think. Like, 20, 19, 20, 21.

[Lawrence]

Did they respect you or like.

[Josh Willis]

Shut the up. I'll definitely ball on their ass.

[Lawrence]

Oh, nice. Yeah.

[Josh Willis]

They see the hands, for sure. No, there was a. There. There was definitely like a. You know, like, we had people that were. Were grooming themselves to be professional baseball players and because that's how elite the.

[Chris]

You're like, let me help with that. Grooming.

[Josh Willis]

Yeah, that's how elite the program was, for sure. Especially in Southern California. Right. It was in Huntington Beach. The guy that runs the program there, Benji Madur, was one of my coaches before. I didn't want to play baseball after. Right. You know? Yeah.

[Lawrence]

Like, you're like Jerry Lorenzo in that way.

[Chris]

Yeah, he.

[Josh Willis]

I know he's a baseball player. He is, yeah.

[Chris]

His dad is a major league man.

[Josh Willis]

Yeah, his dad. Yeah, his dad is. Yeah, he's a OG for sure.

[Lawrence]

Coach Lorenzo.

[Chris]

Yeah. So to get out of Huntington beach, you need to learn how to play baseball or skate.

[Josh Willis]

Right?

[Chris]

Like, that's your.

[Josh Willis]

Exactly. There was literally a skate park at the high school.

[Lawrence]

It was a class level.

[Josh Willis]

Yeah, there's. Yeah, there was.

[Chris]

There's an A plus an ollie.

[Josh Willis]

Yeah, yeah. And then the surf team is like elite as well, you know.

[Lawrence]

Oh, really?

[Josh Willis]

Yeah, it's.

[Lawrence]

What position you play?

[Josh Willis]

I played second base, shortstop. Center field. Okay. Yeah.

[Chris]

Utility infielder. Yeah.

[Josh Willis]

Quick feet, quick hands. Yeah. Yeah, it was quick. Yeah, it was quick.

[Chris]

So this is a J. Crew 47 brand.

[Josh Willis]

Yes.

[Chris]

Harris tweed.

[Josh Willis]

Harris Tweed. Dodger Cat Dodger hat. So I had to have it. It's my joint.

[Chris]

Sure. Good stocking stuffer for listening at home.

[Josh Willis]

What's the watch? Oh, this was a gift from my dad. It's a Rolex Explorer.

[Chris]

Very nice.

[Josh Willis]

I think it was when I graduated college.

[Chris]

Okay.

[Josh Willis]

Yeah. When I graduated college and stuck with me. I've had other ones that have had to leave.

[Chris]

Sure. Accounting. Yeah.

[Josh Willis]

For many reasons. Yeah.

[Lawrence]

You got screwed on the yard.

[Josh Willis]

Totally. Totally. But this one stuck with me. I couldn't. I couldn't let this.

[Chris]

I mean, it's from dad, so.

[Josh Willis]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Chris]

Priceless.

[Josh Willis]

Yeah.

[Lawrence]

What about the neck?

[Josh Willis]

Yeah. The toolery is all good art. Oh, good, good art.

[Chris]

Hell yeah. Shout out to homies.

[Lawrence]

Real silver.

[Josh Willis]

Yeah, yeah. Josh and Rachel and my boy Adam, who I've known forever. They always keep me right.

[Chris]

You know, another underrated hitter, dude.

[Josh Willis]

100% agree. 1. 100% agree. You know, they kind of you know, I hate to say it but like globally they probably get overshined by that other.

[Chris]

Sure.

[Josh Willis]

Brand that's based in Hollywood.

[Chris]

Yeah, they just opened a hotel in Malibu I believe.

[Josh Willis]

Yeah, they bought, they bought the old.

[Lawrence]

Kind of has like the, the like the like denim heads. Love good art.

[Chris]

For sure.

[Lawrence]

I.

[Josh Willis]

They're.

[Lawrence]

They're very much in, in bed with like self edge.

[Josh Willis]

Yes, yes, exactly.

[Lawrence]

I know. They're huge in Japan.

[Josh Willis]

Yep, yep, yep. They are definitely. You know, I think that I was having this conversation I think with Shawna about good art. I, you know they're highly respected with, with people that like know and you know and that other brand is very. They've done a lot of work and they're very famous and they make really good product. You know it's all silver but it's almost like that.

[Lawrence]

But that brand has been like co opted and become something else.

[Chris]

You're only wearing one and you're not wearing good art. Leave it at that. Right?

[Josh Willis]

To. To some extent. Yeah. Yeah. Anyways, I love good art. Love those guys over there. They're the boys.

[Lawrence]

What about the wall chain?

[Josh Willis]

Yeah, good art as well.

[Lawrence]

Oh wow. And the panties?

[Josh Willis]

The are Nike.

[Chris]

Oh, Nike performance for podcasting.

[Josh Willis]

Dude, they're boxer. Sorry.

[Lawrence]

Okay. Boxer boxers.

[Josh Willis]

Yes, Nike boxer cotton blend cotton blend box brief.

[Lawrence]

Are they tight or they.

[Josh Willis]

No, they're not tight.

[Lawrence]

Wow, Nike makes boxers.

[Chris]

That's crazy.

[Josh Willis]

I cannot find them. Are they vintage? I've tried.

[Lawrence]

I.

[Josh Willis]

They're probably, probably five, six years old for sure.

[Lawrence]

List.

[Josh Willis]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Lawrence]

My esteemed list of boxers.

[Josh Willis]

I have not been able to find another pair. So if you do shoot me the. Shoot me the link.

[Chris]

Vintage Nike Nike boxers. Only the best.

[Josh Willis]

Red. Okay. Red. Yeah.

[Chris]

We went through all the outerwear. All the outerwear. Second layer. All the layers. Oh, the shades.

[Josh Willis]

Shades. Bal from Port Tanger.

[Lawrence]

Oh, that's how you say it.

[Chris]

We've always been wondering how to say it.

[Josh Willis]

It.

[Chris]

Portanger.

[Lawrence]

Shout out Joey.

[Chris]

Yeah, yeah.

[Josh Willis]

And Joey too. Yeah. Brother in law Bilal who started it, he helped us with our frames. Oh, nice frames.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Josh Willis]

Got us into a great, a great factory in Japan and we made some frames for one season. Couple seasons. And I would like to make some more. You know the eyewear business is difficult.

[Lawrence]

Hater blockers. Because there's a, there's a monopoly.

[Josh Willis]

Yeah. And it's expensive, dude. Like, like not the product. The product is cheap. All the other like the certifications, the things that you need, the drop ball tests and all, it's just like oh Excuse me?

[Lawrence]

Drop ball test.

[Josh Willis]

Yeah, it's a pause. Yeah, yeah, you need like the cert for the flex nut certification and to sell eyewear.

[Lawrence]

Yeah, I'm certified. Dropping balls.

[Josh Willis]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, There's a lot. Yeah, yeah, there's a lot.

[Chris]

Okay. You learn something new every day over here.

[Lawrence]

And you're sitting on a Pacifico in a Essentia, by the way.

[Josh Willis]

Way.

[Lawrence]

Yeah, get your, get your sips, amino acids or whatever. What's it he sent you that people.

[Josh Willis]

Love, like PH balance.

[Lawrence]

PH balance. That's what it is. Yeah.

[Josh Willis]

What the that means, bro?

[Chris]

Yeah. 9.5. Sounds good.

[Lawrence]

Fit check, drink check, complete. You and Shaa, your wife, you guys are in town visiting from la. Do you have, do you own outerwear that can handle this level of cold, or are you going to be like wearing five flannels and a sweater and a leather jacket your whole time here?

[Josh Willis]

No, Good question. I, yes, I, I, I have an abundance of out wear myself. I love coming to the cold to be able to wear it because we don't get to wear it that often.

[Lawrence]

Oh, true. How short is leather weather in la? Like, how long is that season even exist?

[Josh Willis]

I mean, yes, it does. I mean, you know, I throw a tee on or even a beat or beater on with the leather. You know, like sleazy. Yeah, yeah. But you know, layered up with like this, the heavy one or the quilted ones or, you know, something like that. Yeah, couple months, you know.

[Lawrence]

At night.

[Josh Willis]

Yeah, at night, dude. At night at the beach, it gets cold, you know, not cold like this.

[Chris]

Right, right.

[Josh Willis]

Cold enough to wear some outerwear? For sure.

[Lawrence]

Are you the west side?

[Josh Willis]

I am in Newport Beach. Oh, Newport Beach. So it's south of la. Yeah, south of la. In the shores, in, in the, in the south shores, we call it all the boys there, you know, that's, yeah, that's the zone.

[Lawrence]

A lot of kooks in the lineup. How's the lineup?

[Josh Willis]

Sometimes a lot of snakes, a lot of wave sneakers. Sometimes, Sometimes, you know, we have, there's a great, obviously a great culture there. But, you know, I have a great group of friends that are all surfers mostly, so at any point in time I can paddle out and, you know, know a handful of people.

[Lawrence]

Have you ever had to beat a kook's ass on your locals? Only for Snake and the boys.

[Josh Willis]

I mean, people get talked to for sure.

[Chris]

Oh, yeah.

[Lawrence]

What do you say? Like, what do you actually say? Like, hey, man.

[Josh Willis]

It depends on.

[Chris]

Respect the waves, bro.

[Josh Willis]

Yeah, it depends on the situation, you know, it's like, you know, what are you. What are you gonna do? Beat up an eighth grader? Yeah, yeah.

[Chris]

You guaranteed win for the most part. Yeah.

[Lawrence]

And that's the thing. And if they beat your ass, you recruit them to the baseball team.

[Josh Willis]

True, true. I mean, that's the thing. Like grom. Like groms in the area is a thing, you know? Like, there's definitely a lack of. Of respect from groms these days, I think.

[Lawrence]

Are you like an surfer? You're just on your board, like, not old man.

[Josh Willis]

I'm not old man. I'm. I'm getting to like, what's. What's the levels now is like Unk and OG Gramps. Gramps. Okay, I'm. Maybe I'm. I think I'm OG right now.

[Chris]

Okay.

[Josh Willis]

I think I'm OG right now.

[Chris]

You've aged out of unk.

[Josh Willis]

Yeah. Oh, ANK is after og.

[Chris]

I.

[Lawrence]

We forget. Somebody.

[Chris]

Somebody explained the whole hierarchy.

[Lawrence]

The UNC of the Internet explained it to us, and we immediately forgot because we're too old.

[Josh Willis]

Yeah. Whatever the case is. I mean, I got a little bit of sway, but I think. Think, you know, but you.

[Lawrence]

You're at the age where you're like these groms these days a little bit.

[Josh Willis]

I usually stay. I usually stay away. I usually just do my own thing.

[Lawrence]

Okay.

[Josh Willis]

You know, Respect. Yeah.

[Lawrence]

But you're not like, on a old man, like 11 foot longboard, just like crouching and.

[Josh Willis]

It depends. It depends on what the. What, what the waves call for that day. I'm ankle slappers. Yeah. Yeah. If it's super small or something like that, I'll definitely be on something longer. Yeah. Yeah. Like a glider.

[Chris]

Ocean will dictate many things.

[Josh Willis]

Yeah.

[Lawrence]

As a lifelong Los Angeleno, what disgusts.

[Josh Willis]

You about New York City? Angelino, before we go, that. That's a. That's a broad term, you know, because I grew up. I grew up in the east side of Riverside, which is like east of la. It's like an hour east, but everything is an hour from la, you know?

[Lawrence]

And like, is that the valley?

[Josh Willis]

The opposite. It's a different valley. It's more of the desert valley.

[Lawrence]

Is it the Inland Empire?

[Josh Willis]

Yes.

[Lawrence]

True Detective, Season two.

[Josh Willis]

Oh, really?

[Chris]

David Lynch. Yeah.

[Josh Willis]

Okay. Okay.

[Lawrence]

I don't know.

[Chris]

The true text season two, I thought was like, north. I don't know, dude.

[Josh Willis]

Yeah, yeah.

[Chris]

It's underrated season, but it's do opioids.

[Josh Willis]

Yeah, It's. It's a. It was a. It was a trippy place. It was a trippy place for sure. Growing up. And that's why I gravitated towards the beach and towards, you know, towards la, before the beach.

[Chris]

So what sucks about New York?

[Josh Willis]

Yeah. New York.

[Lawrence]

Because la on this podcast gets a lot of hate from us, right? Because when we go.

[Josh Willis]

There we go.

[Lawrence]

Only get, like a little superficial taste.

[Josh Willis]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Lawrence]

And it's very easy to show you.

[Chris]

Guys for sure from the front seat of a Cadillac Escalade, usually as well.

[Josh Willis]

Shout out.

[Lawrence]

Motors.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Josh Willis]

Shout out gm.

[Chris]

We love you guys.

[Josh Willis]

That's right. That's right.

[Chris]

Sponsor the Pod Boost.

[Josh Willis]

It could be coming.

[Lawrence]

Is it the rats?

[Josh Willis]

Yeah.

[Lawrence]

Is it the goofy garbage?

[Chris]

Garbage juice?

[Josh Willis]

For sure, the rats. I mean, you know, summertime and you're walking through Chinatown. I mean, mean, you look over and you see rat hotel in the bushes. Yes. Yeah, that. Yeah, that's pretty. That's pretty, you know. Shitty.

[Chris]

You're taking the subway when you're in town.

[Josh Willis]

I used to.

[Chris]

Okay.

[Josh Willis]

I used to. I try to. I try to walk as I can. Yeah, because you can't do that. Yeah, exactly.

[Chris]

Like. Oh, my God, this walking thing.

[Lawrence]

Yeah, Sick.

[Chris]

I forgot.

[Josh Willis]

Exactly. Exactly.

[Lawrence]

Where are my Rollerblades?

[Josh Willis]

Yeah. Yeah. I'm the type. I'm the type that if it's like, says, like 45 minutes on a walk, I'm like, yeah, cool.

[Chris]

I'm the same way. Kind of, you know.

[Josh Willis]

You know, if I can make the time, for sure. But that doesn't even make sense anymore either, because you can jump in a car and take you the same amount of time.

[Lawrence]

Yeah.

[Chris]

Longer.

[Josh Willis]

Yeah.

[Chris]

Honestly.

[Josh Willis]

Yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, it's. I wouldn't say shitty. I love New York. I love this city. This. This. I started coming here in 2001.

[Chris]

Interesting timing. You're like, yo, yeah, now's the time to get in while the getting is good.

[Lawrence]

Yeah.

[Josh Willis]

Low. Yeah. Yeah. You've been coming here.

[Lawrence]

It's about to blow up. I was there.

[Chris]

I can say it.

[Josh Willis]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Chris]

He was a victim. Survive. You're talking to a survivor.

[Josh Willis]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Lawrence]

I want to ask you about secondary real quick because like I said, you have two of the biggest fans sitting right here in this room.

[Josh Willis]

Thank you.

[Lawrence]

Dude, can you. For those of listening at home or watching at home, explain to them. Convince them. Convince the people who haven't been blessed to lay hands on one of your garments. What makes Second Layer so special? Because, like, we can attest to it, but we want to hear it from the source.

[Josh Willis]

What makes Second Layer so special? I think that it's. You're right. You need to Touch it for sure. But I think that secondly, our clients have kind of attached to, I think our authenticity and how real we keep it, how we've gotten here. You know, our clients have taken the journey with us, you know, and I think that they see a realness in the brand and in the product.

[Chris]

Product.

[Josh Willis]

All of the, you know, all of the references that, that we take are, you know, are either life experienced or, you know, real authentic, you know, things that mean something to us like the skate culture, like the surf culture, like the Chicano culture of Southern California in general. You know, I think that there's a lot of the, the music culture that we grew up listening to that we, you know, that have shaped our lives. I think that you can see a lot of that in there and I think that, but there is, there's space for that. You know, I think there's space for authenticity. You know, we're getting, we're getting a little bit older. Our clientele is also a little bit older just based on our metrics that we're able to see. So I, I honestly think we've been, we've been blessed to, to, to capture, you know, the, the love and, and, and minds and, and the, where the wearers of Second Layer we've been, we've been blessed because they've all, they're all, they all come back.

[Lawrence]

Do you find it that like when someone gets like a first time customer, they are a repeat customer?

[Josh Willis]

Yes. Yes. And you know, for us we, a lot of our business is, is repeat business. But now we're also getting a lot of first time, first time buyers and you know, and with that comes a lot, you know, a lot of, of work as well, a lot of customer service, a lot of, you know, those things. But you got to educate, you know, and education. Yeah. And that's why, you know, that's why I'm trying to be more present. You know, I think as a brand we've always taken a back seat to the things that at the time seem more important to us. Like the product has been very important to us in our growth and our trajectory and just like what we, what we're proud of. So we took a lot of time in doing that and we're a small team. You know, my brother, my brother Jake, my other brother from another mother, aunt. We, you know, it's us, you know, we have, we have people that, that help us and that have been down for ever, that have never asked for anything, but they're also part of the team and part of the Family. We got Carlos and, and Angela and, and Brandon. All these people that help us, you know, a Baby Ray. We, you know, we got, you know, people across the, across the world. You know, we have one employee in Portugal that's like an actually actual employee, Kate, because we started making a lot of stuff there. We did our jerseys there and like that, and she's just stayed with us ever since. But yeah, dude, I mean, how old is Baby ray? Baby Ray's 41.

[Chris]

He's on, dude. He's Baby Ray.

[Josh Willis]

Yeah, yeah. Baby. Baby Ray. Baby Ray.

[Chris]

Sweet baby.

[Lawrence]

How come no one has a. How can. No one else has a cool nickname?

[Josh Willis]

They do. They do. I just. Baby Ray is the one that, that we, that we call them that, literally.

[Lawrence]

What's yours? J Willie.

[Josh Willis]

J Dub.

[Lawrence]

J Dub.

[Josh Willis]

J Dub.

[Chris]

White Chocolate.

[Josh Willis]

Yeah. Ants. Just Aunt, you know, Ants. Aunt Jake's Playboy, you know, so like, you know, you know, you know how, like, close the friend. The friend group is when, like, they show up and they're like, yo, what up, Jdub? You know, that's probably been a friend for, for, you know, a long time.

[Lawrence]

Speaking of the product, though, because again, I think it is, like, product first. It's so tactile. It's so. Everything is just. You gotta touch it. But as a fabric nerd and, you know, something that you guys have focused on for so long, what's. What? Textile recently has gotten you very stoked. We've talked about the G. We talked about everything you're wearing, but like.

[Josh Willis]

Yeah, yeah, you know, lately it's been. Lately it's been like, I was saying the yarns for the knits, but there's a. There's a mill that we've been working with Bonoto, who does really beautiful fabrics. And there was this, this, this recycled, like, Tencel that I've been feeling a lot. I don't necessarily use it a lot, but we use it in SS25. And I think that was probably my favorite, my favorite fabric.

[Lawrence]

What was that used on.

[Josh Willis]

What's that?

[Lawrence]

What was that used on?

[Josh Willis]

A, like a shirt, jacket thing. Okay. And some, some like, like baggy tied, kind of loose trousers that we did like this kind of like, chill. We called it the team pant. So I. That's. That's been some of my favorite stuff. The leathers are always, you know. Yeah, they're always something that I like. Like to mess with your mouth. Yeah, actually it was, it was a shitty story. Our, our. The vendor, the leather vendor that we worked with for a long time, he had to go out of business. So we've been like in this transitional period of leather vendors in Tuscany trying to, trying to find the right one. But so, so the business is hitting hard everywhere. Not just right, not just with.

[Lawrence]

How do you know what's the right leather? Because, like, as consumers, we like, like we have our second weather, second layer leathers and we're like, oh, this is incredible. But they're not up to your standards necessarily, or like you're still shopping around?

[Josh Willis]

Well, yes and no. Always. Always trying to be better.

[Chris]

Right.

[Josh Willis]

You know, I think that's kind of been the evolution of the brand in general, you know, and that's why we're so grateful for our customers, because they've seen us go from running around in LA and downtown trying to convince people to make tailoring, you know, or like we literally would. Would skate, we would park, we would skate from. We would skate from a pattern maker. We would take a pattern to a cutter, from the cutter to the plotter, from the plotter to the, you know.

[Chris]

How to make an American type.

[Josh Willis]

Pretty much that was literally like real life in, in la, you know, and then when we got to the. So where it was like, okay, you know, trying to have them understand and realize what we were trying to do and it just went right over their heads for, for two, three years. And we tried our hardest in LA to make clothes. The way that, the way that we saw them being made over that we wanted to see them being made. And so that's when we started looking elsewhere in Italy and in Portugal, Japan.

[Chris]

One fabric, I mean, just to my. That I would like to throw it humbly. The flannels are insane.

[Josh Willis]

Dude, I love the flannels. Thank you.

[Lawrence]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's.

[Chris]

That's soft as baby. Yeah, yeah.

[Josh Willis]

Thank you. Those ones are. Those were one of my favorite pieces from this season. Made in Japan.

[Chris]

Crazy.

[Josh Willis]

I love the little, the little hand pick stitch on the collar and on the, and on the cuffs. But yeah, those flannels are crazy.

[Lawrence]

Here's a word or a term that I think we use with second wear that a lot of brands, a lot of brands of menswear don't have. But it's like when you know, you know, when you see it, second is pretty sexy. Do you feel sexy wearing second wear?

[Josh Willis]

Yeah.

[Chris]

Yeah. That's the point, right?

[Josh Willis]

Yeah, yeah, for sure. 100%. You know, I, I always, I always kind of revert back to this when people are like, you know, what, what is second layer? Blah, blah. And I'm like. And I'm like, hey, you know, it be. I would be factious and I would be like, yo, you wear second layer, you pull, you know, and like trademark, you know, after, after I had like six beers, you know, that would, that would be my. That.

[Chris]

That's your elevator pitch.

[Josh Willis]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, that would be my. Sold.

[Lawrence]

Yeah, yeah.

[Chris]

One of everything, please, usually.

[Josh Willis]

And the even better part, that's why, that's why, that's why they come back.

[Lawrence]

Because it happens guaranteed or your money back.

[Josh Willis]

Email. Email.

[Chris]

Jake.

[Lawrence]

Yeah, Jake, I did not pull any hoes.

[Josh Willis]

Yeah, yeah, no, for sure. That's. Yeah, 20 off.

[Lawrence]

No, it is like this tension between like super masculine, kind of like very hard, like almost like gangster and then. But then like a sexiness.

[Josh Willis]

Agree, agree. That's. Yeah, that is, that's intentional. That is definitely intentional. And you know, like I was saying, I also think that that helps when you have your first layer figured out, you know, and, and before the second layer. Yeah, yeah, we kind of always talk to that first layer is you, dog. Like, you gotta have your. You got to have your figured out there. I mean, no, there's no, there's no article of clothing. There's no, there's no money, there's no watch. There's no, nothing that can turn you into the man that you. Or woman that you want to be bars, you know, without you having your first layer figured out. And, you know, that's why we're second layer, you know, we just make it easy. We make it easy for you.

[Lawrence]

When did you have your first layer figured out?

[Josh Willis]

Do you. You know what? It's, it's, it's ever evolving.

[Lawrence]

Wife is laughing.

[Josh Willis]

It is, it's. It's. You know, it evolves. It's just like with, with our, our thought process on, you know, on how we, how we create, you know, it's about, it's about stripping everything down to its core first to. To. To nothing, to bare bones and building it back up. And I think that just like with style, you don't just show up, you arrive to it and, you know, and we're, you know, and we're, we're slowly arriving, you know, and for me, you know, I'm. I'm trying to learn. I'm trying to learn something every day, you know, I'm trying to feel blessed, you know, especially with what I have, with what I don't have, with, with, you know, with tragedy, with. With success, with all these things. So my first layer, you know, my first layer is pretty. Is. Is pretty locked in, but you know, I'm adding to it every day. Right.

[Lawrence]

You know, speaking of tragedy, let's talk about the style in la.

[Chris]

Transition. God.

[Lawrence]

So we think the swag in la is like 87 butt cheeks. Do you think that's a fair assessment?

[Josh Willis]

You know, it's hard because LA is so. LA is so like modular, you know. Oh, it's like, so like you're in your own.

[Lawrence]

It's a.

[Chris]

It's a.

[Lawrence]

It's a smattering of villages.

[Josh Willis]

Yeah. Yeah. And like my. No, my. My. My. My crew, my homies, my. My, like, world, we stand up to the best of them.

[Chris]

100 from the field.

[Josh Willis]

Yep. But. But when I go out of that. When I go out of that circle sometimes. Yeah. Dude, this is trash.

[Chris]

You understand the hate that is trash.

[Lawrence]

What are you seeing? Like tik tok, dude.

[Josh Willis]

Miss me with all that? Dude, I don't. I.

[Chris]

Lot of mad happy.

[Josh Willis]

I look. I look past that skylark.

[Lawrence]

Yeah, but like, they have, you know what? But you see it, right? Or have you seen, like an increase in.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Lawrence]

Postco la, everyone's an influencer. Social media, fashion.

[Josh Willis]

Yeah.

[Chris]

Those are transplants, right? Those are people that are coming to LA for sure.

[Josh Willis]

For sure. And that's why. That's why I say, you know, like, my, you know, my world is, you know, is. Is. Is not. Is not that, you know, but, you know, for instance, a great, great people watching Departmento.

[Lawrence]

One of.

[Josh Willis]

One of our. One of our good friends.

[Chris]

Great.

[Josh Willis]

My partners, you know, my partners, you know, partners in that store as well. And. And Maru is attached to the. To the old. To the old, you know.

[Lawrence]

We got one here now.

[Josh Willis]

Yeah. Oh, really?

[Lawrence]

Maru in Brooklyn?

[Josh Willis]

Yeah, Love Maru, dude. Awesome. You like it?

[Chris]

No, no, I'm not. I don't need coffee like that.

[Lawrence]

I haven't had the coffee yet.

[Chris]

Yeah, I don't need.

[Lawrence]

It's next to a really good vintage store, so. Bar is.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Lawrence]

And so I'll look at the freaks waiting online.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Lawrence]

For coffee.

[Chris]

I know it as a meme. I know it as like an LA meme. Like, honestly.

[Josh Willis]

Right. That's what I was getting to is like, when I go to the store, I'm in Maru and I'm like, the. The dude.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Josh Willis]

Like your day was to do this.

[Chris]

Yes.

[Josh Willis]

Right. Like get a. Get a job, dude. Like, go somewhere job. I know, it's crazy. If you're gonna. If that's your job, at least look better doing it.

[Chris]

Wow. Dress for the job you want, dude. Unemployed.

[Lawrence]

But there's their fashion needs to. Needs to really exist on this.

[Josh Willis]

Yeah.

[Lawrence]

Little brick. Right. Like they need to have like the loudest, craziest on. Not something that is like you, you need to be this close in real life to see the quality hands on.

[Chris]

With it, you know?

[Josh Willis]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I, I agree. I see that. Fashion la. Yes. If, if I was to say which is better, New York or la, I would, you know, I would have to say New York for sure. But.

[Lawrence]

But second wear rare bright spot in la.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Josh Willis]

Thank you, thank you. And my crew, you know, all of them, you know, know, top to bottom, I think that we would hold our own anywhere.

[Lawrence]

Is your, when you say your crew, you mean like the second layer team.

[Josh Willis]

Or like other second layer team adjacent? You know, like the boys, the clients that, like, I mean, Jake just got married and like clients become friends. Like he had, he had clients at his, at his after party for his wedding.

[Chris]

I don't got clients. I got family, dude.

[Josh Willis]

Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's real. It's real, you know. And so it was the whole team.

[Lawrence]

In second lawyer tailoring.

[Josh Willis]

Yeah, yeah, they were.

[Chris]

Come on.

[Josh Willis]

Yeah, yeah, we all looked great.

[Chris]

It's a billboard, bro.

[Lawrence]

A brown suit is.

[Josh Willis]

I. I was, Yeah, I got married in a brown suit and then I had a different brown suit for Jake, for Jake's wedding. Sean and I got married this year in May as well.

[Lawrence]

Congrats.

[Chris]

Congrats, guys.

[Josh Willis]

Thank you. 18 years later, pulled the trigger.

[Chris]

It comes for us all, brother.

[Lawrence]

Stay away, tax man.

[Josh Willis]

Yeah, no, I mean, yeah, we're not married yet.

[Chris]

It's domestic partnership.

[Josh Willis]

Yes, Jake got married. Yep, yep. And so how do you, so how.

[Lawrence]

Do you live and design in LA and not. Not fall victim or not create dog clothing? Is it just like, what's your, what's your mentality to stay focused and not, I don't know, succumb to like, trends or what merchandisers say, what stores are like, yo, you know, be fire some, some pink out.

[Josh Willis]

That's. I mean, that's huge. That, that is, that is huge. Especially for a brand like ours where I think we're at the cusp for a lot of retailers and bigger retailers as well to like start managing our merchandising like that, you know, to like, how do you build the business? You know, what do you have, like, what's working, what's not? I think that, you know, over 12 years we've been able to grow this, this look and this and this idea and what it means. And I think that we're blessed enough to have the buyers, especially Already kind of feeling what we're doing. So, like, that doesn't really. Doesn't necessarily really like, hit us as hard. You know, when they're like, yo, you need to do a. A baggy jean. You know, it's like, well, we kind of have had our version of that for 10 years.

[Chris]

Catch up.

[Josh Willis]

So that's, you know, that's that.

[Lawrence]

I mean, it's almost like the brand is. Maybe I'm like, I mean, to speak for you, but it's like the. Is already so dialed that buyers can come in and like, like, actually, can you do this? Because it's you. By being around for 12 years now, you're like, well, yeah, we're already pretty established in who we are.

[Josh Willis]

Yeah. I think the brand and the product is becoming dialed. I think that the business has been what we've been lacking and what we're trying to work on and try to get better at. Making day. Yeah, I'm making money and balancing the books. Yeah. And honestly, being on time, you know, like, oh, sure. Like, like, dude, the first in is the first paid y. You know, like, you know, if we're the last in, then, you know, then we're obviously going to be the last paid. And that along with the timeline doesn't really work in this. In this business, you know, and then. And then you get into that rat race of chasing your tail every season. Because every season we're doing better.

[Chris]

Right.

[Josh Willis]

Every season we're growing.

[Lawrence]

But that's every season you're like, chasing down, like the perfect mill, the perfect factory.

[Josh Willis]

That, that. Those things too. Those things too. And everybody's costs are going up. Everybody, you know, everybody's tax you for, you know, at the same time, we're not making thousands of units of one item. We're making a hundred of one item. You know what I mean? Maybe, you know, of some of the leathers, we're making 20.

[Chris]

Right.

[Josh Willis]

You know, like, so there. There's some exclusivity that comes with doing this, but the, you know, the business. The business is what we're trying to get better at. And, and we have partners that are trying to help us do that, like our factory partners now that we work with. With. We're. We're trying to get better, but I think that, you know, we're on our. We're on our way.

[Chris]

Have you guys let perfection get, like, in the way of good, as people have said before, where it's like. Like trying to get it almost so dialed? Because there is that, you know, level of fidelity that you guys like have and you've had for 12 years. That's like kind of shooting yourself in the foot sometimes where you are late.

[Josh Willis]

Like. I wish it was that. I, I honestly, I, I do. I wish I was. I wish it was that. It's, it's, it's, you know, it's a lot more than that. You know, that would mean, that would mean that we had everything taken care of and we actually had the time and the money and all these things to do it that way. I don't, I don't remember your last guest's name. And they have a sportswear brand.

[Chris]

Jackie of Literary Sport. Yeah.

[Josh Willis]

Her job seems amazing.

[Chris]

I would love to have creative direction.

[Josh Willis]

Yes, yes, yes.

[Lawrence]

You know, no production.

[Josh Willis]

Yeah, yeah, for sure. That, like something like that. That sounds amazing. Amazing. But when you own your own, when you own your, your own brand and when you're on the hook for everything. I wish it was something like that. We, we try our hardest to, to, you know, perfect everything as much as we can. But again, just like with everything else, it's, it's, it's, it's in our. It's growing pains and we're work and we work through them every day. And that's why I say I'm the cleaner upper all the time. I'm the janitor, because everything gets dumped on me, Everything gets dumped on my brother. Everything gets dumped on us. And like, some days. Yeah, some days really suck, dude. Yeah, some days really suck. And the bright parts are when you do have a good product that we're sitting here, we're talking about, you know, the product. People like it. Like, dude, that, that's more, that means more than anything that, that we do.

[Lawrence]

Let's focus on the positive real quick. So looking we're at the, the ass end of 2025 right now. Is there a single moment from the past year that you would point to as like the highlighted 2025. Five for the brand.

[Josh Willis]

Married.

[Chris]

You passed the test. But for the brand. Oh, man.

[Lawrence]

For second layer, though.

[Josh Willis]

Yeah, for second layer. You know what? Yeah, yeah. I think being on time for kind of two seasons in a row.

[Chris]

Let's go.

[Josh Willis]

Yeah. Two for two. Yeah. Being on time. I think that our, our factory, like our production is, is where it needs to be in our opinion. Making great products, really, you know, almost luxury product. Luxury products.

[Chris]

It is, that's. It is. Let's be clear.

[Josh Willis]

Yeah.

[Lawrence]

It's luxury without being like.

[Chris]

No.

[Lawrence]

Stuffy or fancy. No, that's what we're. Yeah, it's a Different type of. It's a different definition of luxury than I think people are used to or fed.

[Josh Willis]

Yes.

[Lawrence]

These days.

[Josh Willis]

Yes. Yes. And I don't know how the market is going to, like, describe that, because I think it needs to be described. I think that merchandise. I think so, because I think that merchant. Because the budgets, like, get affected, you know, like when we're going to. Into a new season and, you know, LVMH is busting down, you know, somebody, you know somebody's door and they're like, hey, you got to take 50,000 of this, a hundred thousand of this. They're just like arbitrarily throwing money out there that, like, it's taken from us and, you know, and like it. I don't think. I mean, if we're making just as good a product in some instances, like, why is it that you're letting these people dictate, like, what we're doing?

[Chris]

If it's because the brand needs, like, a tagline esthetically of like.

[Josh Willis]

Right, right. Yeah. So bummer.

[Chris]

But the reality, I guess.

[Josh Willis]

But highlights of 2020. Yeah. Production's kind of in line now. The. The season over season growth has been fairly good, especially with a really tough retail economy.

[Lawrence]

Where's your biggest market?

[Josh Willis]

Is it us?

[Lawrence]

Is Japan.

[Josh Willis]

It's us. Yeah, it's us. It's. It's. It's localized even. It's LA and New York.

[Lawrence]

Is Japan up there? Because I've Japan a lot of stores.

[Josh Willis]

Yeah, Japan's way up there. Japan is how you know it's good. Yeah, I think so, too. Yeah, for sure.

[Chris]

If you ain't big in Japan, you ain't big anywhere.

[Josh Willis]

You know what? I think that our second layer will.

[Lawrence]

Pull big in Japan.

[Josh Willis]

Let's go.

[Lawrence]

That's your market.

[Josh Willis]

That's 100. I. You know, give me a couple more beers. I'm gonna put that on. That's gonna be in the description on Instagram by the end of the day.

[Chris]

That's a free one for you guys. At least we can.

[Josh Willis]

Yeah, Japan is. If I. If honestly, I had to say, Japan's probably right after LA Throw Gang.

[Chris]

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[Lawrence]

What's the difference between the the Japanese clients, whether that's a store or the consumer, and the American client? Store Consumer?

[Josh Willis]

The Japanese consumer, our client. They start fairly slow. They start fairly slow. And they're methodical. You know they're methodical. They're like, ooh, they've Been looking at a pair of denim because we could see on the back end of Shopify, like, this person's had it in the cart for, you know, for three months. You know, pull the trigger, my boy.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Josh Willis]

You know, but, but when they do.

[Lawrence]

We going to dance. We're going to. Yeah.

[Josh Willis]

No, but when they do, they're like, you can see it, like it, it comes a little bit faster the next time. And then it's not just the denim and then it's not just a thermal. Then it's like the big purchase, the leather or it's the, the, the suit or something like that.

[Lawrence]

And the American guy. They're just like the.

[Josh Willis]

I need it all that kind of.

[Chris]

Or like buying a fit at a time kind of.

[Josh Willis]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, kind of. And, and maybe because they're, they've been clients longer, maybe, you know, I, I, A lot of our, A lot of our, like of our business is, like I said, return customers. But you even start to know him, you're like, damn, what did he get? You know, you see it, you see a, you see a, a, a, a, A chaching come in on your phone and you're like, oh, Dennis just cop something today.

[Lawrence]

Yeah.

[Josh Willis]

Oh, d. He's gonna be stunting that new life.

[Chris]

Dennis just got paid.

[Josh Willis]

Totally, totally, totally, totally.

[Chris]

Shout out to Dennis, the real hero, dude.

[Josh Willis]

Dennis Nguyen. Shout out, dog.

[Lawrence]

Are you in a place where you can, like, where you have like, creative or, or business goals set out for the upcoming year for 2026?

[Josh Willis]

Yeah, yeah. What are we thinking?

[Lawrence]

KPIs beyond time.

[Josh Willis]

Oh, 100%.

[Lawrence]

Be bigger in Japan.

[Josh Willis]

Be bigger in Japan. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Go into our next sales season, which is in January with all of our.

[Chris]

Together, like all the samples.

[Josh Willis]

Yeah, look, lookbooks, line sheets, prices.

[Lawrence]

Bro, you should have just photographed the wedding.

[Josh Willis]

Yes, No, I know. No, but I hope you photographed wedding. Yeah, we did, we did, we did.

[Chris]

Double tipping of a wedding photographer.

[Josh Willis]

Yeah, yeah. It. Yeah. My boy Carlos, he shoots, he shoots the brand. He shoots the brand and he shot our wedding.

[Chris]

That's awesome.

[Lawrence]

For usage we can use, right?

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Lawrence]

Okay.

[Chris]

Sales season dialed.

[Josh Willis]

Yeah.

[Chris]

January on point. It's coming up soon.

[Josh Willis]

Yes, coming up real soon. Yeah. Had a argument about that this morning. Factory and then dude, honestly, finding a brick and mortar location for SL.

[Lawrence]

Yes, LA. Of course.

[Josh Willis]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It needs to start in la. Are our, our kind of argument is whether it should be in la, like proper, like the east side Silver Lake area. I wouldn't want it to be too close to our, you know, to our, our Main retailers there being Maxfield and Departmento. It kind of have to be, like, in the middle Right. Of those, but. Or Newport Beach.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Josh Willis]

You know, it's kind of like where we're at.

[Chris]

Destination shop.

[Josh Willis]

Destination. There's. There's beautiful. There's a beautiful store that we sell there called Amore's, one of the best stores in the world. I think they were just on a GQ's like, top 50 stores or the.

[Chris]

New York Times list.

[Josh Willis]

New York Times.

[Chris]

That's what it was.

[Josh Willis]

Yes. And. And we know we have clientele there, so it. It. It's. You know, it. I don't know. I don't know.

[Chris]

Is that like being a big fish in a smaller pond type, like, argument?

[Josh Willis]

A little bit, yeah. But it's also not. I don't know. Know. Destination is. Destination is tough when you're, like, counting on the business.

[Chris]

Yeah, true. You know, that's a risk.

[Josh Willis]

It's like you got to do the business for it to.

[Chris]

But that's the plan is you want. We want to have the brick and mortar store. Like, that's got to happen.

[Josh Willis]

Yeah. At least finding it and, like, starting it. I don't know if something like that.

[Lawrence]

Was tough to do in, like, a year, a month.

[Josh Willis]

Totally, totally. But, like, at least. At least getting a lot closer to, you know, to that idea. I think that potentially trying to start something where they had product for, like, SS 26 7, you know?

[Lawrence]

Okay.

[Chris]

Mark your calendar's friends.

[Lawrence]

Seriously, whether you're in Eagle Rock or Newport Beach.

[Josh Willis]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Chris]

Somewhere. Somewhere in the greater la.

[Josh Willis]

Anybody want to partner up?

[Chris]

Holler at me.

[Lawrence]

You should go on selling Sunset. Get a. Get a. Get a price break.

[Josh Willis]

I probably could. Honestly, I probably could. Shawna's. Shauna's sister is a celebrity re. Real estate.

[Lawrence]

For real?

[Josh Willis]

Yeah.

[Lawrence]

Is she on the show?

[Josh Willis]

She's, like, top 1% in the country.

[Lawrence]

Holy. Is she on the show?

[Josh Willis]

Literally? No, she's. I mean, she works for the agency.

[Lawrence]

For the O Group.

[Josh Willis]

What's the O? I don't know, anything like. But I know we gotta get.

[Lawrence]

I know you said Brett too short. Very short Kings.

[Josh Willis]

I know that. I know that. Gina's a straight boss, and she's a. She's a bulldog.

[Lawrence]

There you go.

[Josh Willis]

Okay. What?

[Lawrence]

Okay, so retail is something because you want what. You want to control the entire experience from, like, start from entering the doorway, Catch, register. What's moved the needle for you guys in the 12 years? Is it, like, you know, having a presence in Paris? Is it people with big socials Posting it. Like do celebrities wear it? Like what moves the needle for you guys, sales wise? What affects the bottom line?

[Josh Willis]

Hopefully this will podcast. No, I.

[Lawrence]

You know what, we'll get your IG up.

[Chris]

Yeah, for sure.

[Josh Willis]

When there's product in store, it sells literally. Like that's our biggest hurdle.

[Chris]

Just getting on the racks. On the racks.

[Josh Willis]

Rack. When it's on the rack, people sell.

[Lawrence]

The out of it because people can touch it.

[Josh Willis]

Yes, yes. But I mean there's been, you know, there's been small instances like, you know, when. When Leon Bridges will wear something, you know, he wear a whole fit to the gq, man. Yeah, yeah, you look great. Yeah, it looked good. You know, and then there's a handful of content creators. Yeah, yeah. That they're Japanese.

[Chris]

Okay. Oh, okay.

[Josh Willis]

Yeah, that's. That. That definitely are like cool and like I say it like that facetiously, but they're actually cool.

[Chris]

They're set the pace for.

[Josh Willis]

Yeah, yeah. They're.

[Chris]

They're.

[Josh Willis]

They know what's up.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Josh Willis]

You know what I mean?

[Lawrence]

Have you started making any inroads into Korea or China?

[Josh Willis]

We had one in China until the pandemic and that has kind of like gone to zero.

[Lawrence]

What about Korea? I feel like it would fucking crazy.

[Josh Willis]

We kind of go in and out in Korea. Now we have a couple part retail partners in Korea that have like slowly came back on. So I think Korea is the neck.

[Chris]

Definitely the next what people say.

[Josh Willis]

Yeah. And they see what's going on in Japan.

[Lawrence]

So gang bang them style. Yeah.

[Josh Willis]

And one of our best friends, one of our supporters, K.B. k.B. Lee. He's like Shao K.B. yeah, he's you know, he big legends. Yeah. He's always had our back. He's always wearing it. He's always like trying to put people.

[Chris]

On a real dot connector.

[Josh Willis]

The his actual job. Yes, yes.

[Chris]

He's the man.

[Josh Willis]

Which I can say he actually like, that's his job. Right?

[Chris]

Yeah, yeah. Just an Instagram bio and. Totally, totally.

[Josh Willis]

Yes, yes, yes.

[Lawrence]

Do you have. Okay, so where do you think second wear might have the most room to improve category wise? Like where do you kind of see the. The most potential footwear?

[Chris]

O. Let's talk.

[Lawrence]

What do we have now? Just like a few pairs of boots.

[Josh Willis]

Few pairs of boots. Which we're going to expand on those boots first future classics, man.

[Chris]

That's how I feel about all my footwear dudes.

[Josh Willis]

Yeah, I hope so. I think that our. That we need a sneaker.

[Lawrence]

But yo, that creative wreck notebook.

[Josh Willis]

No, and then we had article number.

[Chris]

Yeah, that's right.

[Lawrence]

Oh, that's right.

[Josh Willis]

Yeah. Yeah. That good? Yeah, it still exists, and it's a license in. In. In China right now. We kind of like, trying to figure out how to, you know, about those. Yeah, it was. It was just a lot at one time. We couldn't do everything totally.

[Lawrence]

Footwear's tough.

[Josh Willis]

Footwear. And footwear became tough, too. There was a time where it was. It was like shooting fish in a barrel. And. And now, you know, it's very tough. But at the same time, tell me a sneaker you've been stoked. You've been stoked on, like, in the.

[Lawrence]

Last two years from, like, one of.

[Josh Willis]

The big guys from anybody. Like, one that you want to wear.

[Chris]

Like, you know, really wear.

[Lawrence]

These are a shoe disguise or.

[Chris]

There you go.

[Josh Willis]

Yeah, there you go. Yeah, dude.

[Chris]

But they're proper, you know, hard bottoms.

[Josh Willis]

I go and I get my Chucks from Japan. Yeah, I do the. I do the Japan made in Japan Chucks. My friend from Tenu, Mitch, he sent me a store in Amsterdam that we sell. He's. He had a. An early version of, like, a 70s wide.

[Chris]

Okay.

[Josh Willis]

Chuck Taylor. Because you know how, like, those chuck Taylors, the 70s, they're so slim and narrow. He had a wide version, which was. All right. Yeah, cool.

[Chris]

Or talk about a shoe from the 1950s, you know, virtually.

[Josh Willis]

Right, exactly, exactly, exactly.

[Chris]

But it hasn't been a good sneaker in years.

[Josh Willis]

Years, dude.

[Chris]

Honestly. No, it's a. It's a bummer. But it's like. It is what it is, honestly.

[Josh Willis]

And. And saved me with all the, like, yo, what about this one? This. It's like, dude, no, like, for me, I haven't been able to go out and buy a sneaker. Right.

[Lawrence]

What was that sneaker that you were stoked on?

[Chris]

Wide Chucks.

[Josh Willis]

Yeah, Wide Chucks from Amsterdam. Yeah, I still get my. Yeah, I still get my. My made in Japan Chucks. I don't know.

[Lawrence]

Like.

[Josh Willis]

Nothing, dude. Nothing. I mean, all running shoes.

[Lawrence]

Okay.

[Josh Willis]

Running shoes. You know, I run. I run a fair amount if I'm not surfing. Like, running is probably the only thing that, like, keeps me active.

[Lawrence]

What's your. What are your running fits? Last or the last guest for Jackie?

[Josh Willis]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, running fits. You know, I don't know how.

[Lawrence]

Performance wear.

[Josh Willis]

No, I don't know how.

[Chris]

Second layer sport.

[Josh Willis]

Yeah, I kind of. I kind of. I kind of sensed, like, maybe like a little tension there, but it's. It's a. It's satisfy.

[Chris]

Okay.

[Josh Willis]

My buddy Max runs for them, and so that's Kind of been a. And breeze is like. Is a supporter as well. He. He actually has some boots that he wears all the time when he's not running. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And then a. A cotton. A cotton tee, right? A vintage tee.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Josh Willis]

I think it's so stupid to wear like. Sure. Like polyester. Synthetic.

[Chris]

Synthetic fibers that just throw on a torched vintage team.

[Josh Willis]

Yeah, exactly.

[Lawrence]

They always come out stinky.

[Josh Willis]

Yeah. And a bandana always.

[Chris]

Why are you covering the lettuce, dog?

[Josh Willis]

I know, I know. Yeah. You're putting in.

[Lawrence]

Wear a visor.

[Josh Willis]

Yeah. You're put. Yeah, yeah. You're putting in miles.

[Lawrence]

Yo, second layer leather visor for running.

[Josh Willis]

The last leather visor I had Jake threw.

[Lawrence]

Sorry, what?

[Chris]

You have one?

[Josh Willis]

Yeah, Jake. It was a. It was a Rick Owens. Of course it was a Rick Owens leather. Leather visor.

[Chris]

Sick.

[Josh Willis]

Like the blistered lamb. And we were so lit at a Depeche Mode concert at the. At the Bowl. Dave Gahan was like twirling around on the stage and we were so lit, Jake took off his leather Rickon's visor and threw it at him like. Like. Like it was a pair of panties or something.

[Chris]

It was a multi thousand dollar leather visor. Yeah.

[Josh Willis]

Yeah.

[Chris]

The boys were lit at the Pesh Mode, clearly.

[Josh Willis]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Lawrence]

Josh, how many leather jackets do you own?

[Josh Willis]

Oh.

[Lawrence]

Too many.

[Josh Willis]

Yeah, a dozen.

[Chris]

Oh, wow.

[Josh Willis]

Yeah, a couple all second wear now. Yeah.

[Lawrence]

Okay, now, which one's your favorite?

[Josh Willis]

The.

[Lawrence]

You can only keep one.

[Josh Willis]

If I could only keep one. Okay. Right now my favorite. It. I would just go the. The leopard leather from this season with the.

[Lawrence]

On the outside.

[Josh Willis]

Yeah. Where.

[Chris]

Go big or go home.

[Josh Willis]

So crazy. How did that.

[Lawrence]

How did you. How do you conceptualize that they were.

[Josh Willis]

Lit at the test Mode, you know.

[Chris]

Is so hard, bro.

[Josh Willis]

You know, leopard's kind of one of those things that always like sticks, you know, it always stays. It's kind of like somebody like the. The la.

[Chris]

It's a neutral. Dude.

[Josh Willis]

If you're asking, I don't know, like, it's same thing.

[Lawrence]

Well, the lining of the Jimmy jacket I have is the leopard. But like outside on a leather jacket and is it. Is. Is the leopard. Is it like a. Is that leather?

[Josh Willis]

It's a pony hair.

[Lawrence]

It's like a panel. Pony hair panel.

[Josh Willis]

Yes. Yeah. So yeah, if I had to say which one was my favorite, like, I'd have to go that one because I already pulled that one aside. I haven't worn it yet, but I'm waiting for the day to pull that one.

[Lawrence]

Out.

[Josh Willis]

But if I had to say it everyday, go to. It'd be this rider jacket.

[Chris]

Okay. Not the freak jacket.

[Josh Willis]

The Mad Dog too.

[Chris]

Yeah, the Mad Dog classic.

[Lawrence]

That's the.

[Josh Willis]

That's.

[Lawrence]

That's the. The arc. That's the. The gold standard, I think.

[Josh Willis]

I think so.

[Chris]

Platonic ideal.

[Josh Willis]

Honestly. That's one that like if. When fools have. I've literally had somebody come up to me in a bar. He had it. He had it on. He's like, bro, you never under. You never believe how many chicks this jacket gets me.

[Lawrence]

I'm like.

[Josh Willis]

I'm like, yeah, dog. I was like.

[Lawrence]

I was.

[Josh Willis]

He's like, you want a beer? I was like, Sh. 100. Let's. The mad dog. The Mad Dog.

[Lawrence]

I having like a. Like a. Like a tough. Very tough heavy canvas with the contrast stitching. I actually get asked about that more than the leather.

[Josh Willis]

Really? Yeah, really.

[Lawrence]

It's like a dark. It's like a dark navy with white contrast.

[Josh Willis]

I remember this one. Yes, I remember this one.

[Lawrence]

It's from a long time ago. Is it. It's a Mad Dog, right?

[Josh Willis]

Yeah.

[Chris]

Is it bund or zipped?

[Josh Willis]

No, it's not a Mad Dog.

[Lawrence]

The Mad Dog's button.

[Josh Willis]

Yeah, that one is great. I have that one in my closet.

[Lawrence]

I get asked about that probably the. A lot.

[Josh Willis]

I need to bring that one back. Yeah, I need to bring that. That was a. That was a. A wool with the. Yeah, with like the.

[Lawrence]

And that can be like, you know, if maybe somebody can't, you know, drop or doesn't have the bread yet. For a leather, that's like their entry point.

[Chris]

Canvas.

[Lawrence]

But it's still outerwear, right?

[Josh Willis]

Yeah, for sure. 100%. Especially for LA.

[Lawrence]

Way to hook them in. So you guys self funded. Second layer when you first started, right? You, Jake, you play an. How shook were you about draining your bank account?

[Josh Willis]

Honestly at that time there was.

[Lawrence]

And were you with Sean at that point?

[Josh Willis]

Oh, yeah.

[Lawrence]

Okay. How shook was Sha when you drained your bank account?

[Josh Willis]

You know what? Sha is the only reason that I can exist in this. In this world.

[Chris]

Behind every good man. Better woman.

[Josh Willis]

For sure.

[Lawrence]

Behind every good brand.

[Josh Willis]

Yes. Yeah.

[Chris]

Sha very understanding partner.

[Josh Willis]

Typically 100%.

[Chris]

Typically.

[Josh Willis]

She's been through everything, obviously, but. And she's.

[Lawrence]

She's let you get on her health insurance.

[Josh Willis]

Yeah, right. I am.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Lawrence]

You're married now.

[Josh Willis]

Yes, I am. I am. I just got a. A root canal.

[Chris]

He finally got to go to the dentist.

[Josh Willis]

The root canal.

[Lawrence]

D. Is that why you guys got married?

[Chris]

Because he's going to lose his teeth.

[Lawrence]

Honey, I don't want veneers.

[Josh Willis]

She with me and says that that's why for sure. No, but you had no money to.

[Chris]

Lose is what you were saying.

[Josh Willis]

I had a. No, I had, you know what? I had actually, I had actually a decent amount of creative wreck money. Yeah, yeah. I had a decent AM money and.

[Lawrence]

And mid top sneaker money.

[Josh Willis]

Yeah. And there was no, there was no toe strap money. There was no thought into it. Yeah, it was like this is what we're gonna do.

[Lawrence]

Like we ball.

[Josh Willis]

This is like, you know, and I'm being naive. I thought it would come back already, you know, like.

[Chris]

But that 12 years later, no. Yeah.

[Josh Willis]

You know, and even with how much I already knew with, with the business, being in business, doing the business, you know, making products, being part of, you know, of, of big, you know, deals like people giving you a ten million dollar PO and you know, and in making sure that needed to like come to fruition, all these things. I still didn't, didn't know that it would be this difficult because it's been difficult, dude. It is, it is a tough business to be in. Especially when you know, you, you have an idea and you're trying to stick to it and you're not getting back to la. I think that a lot of LA brands, they, they maneuver with trends.

[Chris]

Yep. No identity. Really.

[Josh Willis]

Yeah, yeah. And you know, and good on them for being able to know how to make a dollar, I guess. Shitty on me for, you know, for sticking to my guns, I guess, and not making a dollar.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Lawrence]

But if you miss one trend then if you're a trend based brand, you miss, you miss. It's over.

[Josh Willis]

Yeah. And a lot of them have been over. A lot of them have came and gone. A lot of them are on their last leg. A lot of them are still hanging on. You know, at the same time you can't not give credit where credit is due for somebody to also build, you know, businesses like, you know, some of the brands that we, we probably come to mind when we're talking about LA and Fear of God, a bigger brand. Rick Owens, 100%. And you know, I was a big fan of Rick Owens for a long time. I wore Rick owens from like 2004 to 2012, you know, religiously.

[Lawrence]

Just threw it all on stage.

[Josh Willis]

Yeah, yeah, but too many concerts. Yeah, but that's like, you know, that's even, that's played, you know what I mean? Even though they're probably having the best year ever in business because everybody is buying a sneaker.

[Chris]

Sure.

[Josh Willis]

You know, like it's, it's hit, you.

[Lawrence]

Know, but, but that's another words like it's, it's. They're still doing what they're doing, but it's been co opted by like a subset.

[Josh Willis]

100%. 100%.

[Lawrence]

You know, and those people move on eventually.

[Josh Willis]

They always do. They always do.

[Lawrence]

Movers move.

[Josh Willis]

Yeah. And hope. And hopefully our clientele, I think from what the looks of it are, you know, we've had clients forever for a long time, you know, six, seven, eight, nine, 10 years even.

[Chris]

R or dies. Yeah.

[Josh Willis]

Yeah. And yeah. And that's what we're going to be here for. We're, we're going to be here for the long run, you know.

[Lawrence]

Was there a big up you made in the early days of the brand?

[Josh Willis]

Almost every day.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Lawrence]

All right.

[Chris]

Every day to name.

[Josh Willis]

No, every day. Dude. I mean, honestly, Trusting people maybe that, you know, trust nobody that we shouldn't have and it maybe not necessarily the people, but like just like. Because everybody has fairly good intentions. I think like when it comes down to it, when we're both trying to achieve something, but maybe not listening to our gut, you know, somebody's saying that like, you know, you have two months to make something, somebody's saying that they can do it when in reality, you know, like, you know, deep down that like that's not enough time.

[Chris]

I want to believe you.

[Josh Willis]

I want to believe. And you're telling me the person that's making it, you're telling me that it's going to be done. Done and you can do it.

[Lawrence]

That's exactly what I want to hear.

[Josh Willis]

Yes, exactly. Holy. Exactly. No, I still make that up.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Josh Willis]

I still.

[Chris]

Too trusting.

[Josh Willis]

Yeah. Yeah. Taking. Taking too much business on in the beginning.

[Chris]

Eyes bigger than your stomach.

[Josh Willis]

Yeah. In the beginning we tried to take. There was a lot of people that wanted to buy the, the collection. We took a lot of orders and we didn't, we didn't deliver on those orders or partially delivered all of them or. And just because we couldn't, like we, you know, we had spent all of, all of our money. We were always, you know, robbing Peter to pay Paul, you know, always chasing your tail because one season you do a certain amount, the next season you already did more than that. Yeah. So you got to pay for not only what you did, but what you got coming as well. And, and you know, and like you said, we self funded ourselves. You know, we, you know, we come, we come from, you know, not a lot and you know, all of our you know, all of our supporters, our friends, our family, dude, everybody's. Everybody's been a supporter, dude, everybody's. You know, I had, you know, I had friends hitting the block to like, you know, to come back and be like, yo, I got you guys. Yeah, don't trip, right? You know, I would, you know, I hit up one, I hit up one of my friends and he was like, sh. Give me a week. You know, And I was like. And I was like, dude, yeah, like, you just saved me. You know, you saved us. Cuz, if you, if, if I didn't have those friends, if I didn't know how to go from, you know, Wall street in the bank to, to the street and like, figure it out.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Josh Willis]

Then it wasn't going to happen. And you know, and everybody's.

[Chris]

Takes a village.

[Josh Willis]

It does, it does, it does.

[Lawrence]

What was the brokest behavior you have engaged in as an adult? Maybe not could. This could precede your second layer career or like your career creative.

[Josh Willis]

No, no, no.

[Chris]

He's like, what I do yesterday.

[Lawrence]

I'm talking like ice cubes.

[Chris]

How long do we have?

[Josh Willis]

How long do we have? Okay, I'll do a couple things here.

[Chris]

Okay. All right.

[Josh Willis]

First off, I would. There's been, there's going to be a book coming out about that, about how to survive because surviving as a broke, as a broke, broke person, like in la, just surviving, making it happen. Like I said, luckily I always had food on the table. Luckily I always had a roof over my head. You know, luckily those were the things that like I, Shauna was like, the.

[Chris]

Bare necessities were taken.

[Josh Willis]

Bare necessities. Yeah, bare necessities. But I don't know, like hiding your whip so it doesn't get repossessed. Repoed, you know, hiding two whips so they don't get repoed. Having your, having your credit card decline at a coffee, you know, nine dollar cortados.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Josh Willis]

Yeah. I mean, I don't know, you know, like, like this life isn't for everybody, dog.

[Chris]

Oh, it's not.

[Josh Willis]

You know, like, gotta put your pride.

[Chris]

To the side sometimes.

[Josh Willis]

Yeah. I mean, at the same time you could, you could have a million dollars in your account one day and by the end of that day it's at negative because you've paid for everything. You're like, you know, you're, you're keeping it moving. You're it, it's going. But at the same time. Time, you know, I don't want, I don't like to dwell on those, on those things too much because what, you know, what doesn't break you, makes you. Makes you tougher.

[Chris]

Sure.

[Josh Willis]

You don't. You don't sharpen steel and sand, you know, like, you, you know, we've. We've gotten better at this. You know what I mean? And I've gotten tougher. And what I will say is that I've been able to understand and realize what being rich is. And I think that, you know, my riches now, I know they come from being healthy, from having a. A family, from loving, from giving as much as I can, from appreciating my day to day, my, you know, being upright, you know, just all the things rich in spirit. Yeah, I had a. I had a lot of shitty things happen too, at the same time. You know, my mom died, my grandma died, my dog died, died. Like all this, like, happened, you know?

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Lawrence]

And, you know, like, they found your car.

[Chris]

They found. The second. They found the second car. Never found the car.

[Josh Willis]

They never found the car, you know, but, you know, it's.

[Chris]

I've.

[Josh Willis]

I've been blessed to be able to have this, you know, to know this, that I, I am, I. I am rich. And, you know, I'm working towards. I'm working towards the, the thing. Things that, you know, that I want to accomplish, but none of, none of the things that I go through are discouraging that. You know, I wake up every day feeling blessed. I wake up every day with a goal and with a mission and I got people riding for me. Yeah. You know, I got ride or dies, homie.

[Lawrence]

So, well, what's the best. So it is like a family affair. What's the best thing about working with your brother?

[Josh Willis]

Playboy dog. Playboy's been that fool. Playboy has been.

[Lawrence]

Start with best thing and then we'll go.

[Josh Willis]

Yeah. No, no. Best thing is, you know, is like, no matter what. And my dad always instilled this in us, you know, it's always been a family thing. Like we're brothers, and brothers come before everything. And it's, you know, I'm blessed to have a brother that I know I can call. Call any time of the day. You know, it's, you know, it's like that. It's like that one scene in the town when he's like, yo, you know.

[Chris]

Whose car are we taking?

[Josh Willis]

Yeah, whose car are we taking?

[Chris]

Yeah, yeah, one or the one they didn't find.

[Josh Willis]

Yeah, yeah. You know, we got to take the bus.

[Chris]

Yeah, we're gonna skate over.

[Josh Willis]

Yeah. No, Jake, you know what? At the same time, I, I learn from my brother every day. He's smart as he knows what. He knows what he's talking about. He. He also lives everything. And that fool has definitely lived. He's got some miles on him. You know what I mean?

[Lawrence]

Who steals more samples for their personal closet?

[Josh Willis]

Me. Me. All day long. And you know, I have no qualms doing it ever. Yeah.

[Lawrence]

What's the worst thing about working with your brother?

[Josh Willis]

Arguing. Yeah, arguing. Because that's inevitable.

[Chris]

How do you compromise?

[Josh Willis]

We.

[Chris]

We don't.

[Josh Willis]

You know what? We. Yeah, we. Time. You know, time just figures it out time. Like we're also Shauna trips out on us. We're also the type that can have be on a call yelling, screaming all the. That we know that we shouldn't be doing all the things that we know are not productive. You know, in. In figuring out what we're trying to out figure. Figure out. We can hang up the phone mad as five minutes later, yo, so on this other thing I was talking about, you know, and so. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, when he used to drink, he'd be like, yo, let's go grab a beer. But, you know, it's. That's. That's a tough one. But I. I would. I wouldn't. I wouldn't say I would ever choose to do anything different. Now.

[Lawrence]

How do you guys.

[Chris]

How do you.

[Josh Willis]

You.

[Lawrence]

How do the three of you split up the job duties? Like, what's.

[Josh Willis]

Yeah.

[Lawrence]

Talk about. You're the janitor, count pr, everything. Like, sir, actually, how do you guys split it up? Like, who's. What roles?

[Josh Willis]

Yeah, you know what? Ant. Ant is an amazing designer. He is very particular and technical. He's great with graphics, I think is his, like, you know, coming from Stussy, that's kind of of like his. For his forte or whatever. So when it comes to design, it's like he'll usually take the reins on the graphic. More graphic stuff or more intricate stuff, whereas I'll be like more the fabrications and the new bodies or something like that, the new blocks that we're doing. And then when it comes to the. The creative, it's, you know, we're just there. We're making it happen. You know, we're like.

[Lawrence]

It's like a hive mind.

[Josh Willis]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. We're like, yo, this is what we're trying to do. And. And. And we're, you know, dialogue between everyone. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. We're the. The. If you're there in the room, you're. You're there for a reason. You know what I mean? Like, so. So everybody Makes something better. And then my brother, he, honestly, he's got a. He sweeps up the.

[Lawrence]

He's the sweeper.

[Josh Willis]

Yeah. He's the accounting, the back end, the operations. And then, like, is able. Is able to, like, look at, you know, some of the analytics and be like, hey, guys, like, the white one did good. Like, why don't we have a white one? You know, type of shit.

[Lawrence]

So he's like the business engine.

[Josh Willis]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Lawrence]

And then you're like, what if we did it in green?

[Josh Willis]

Yeah, well, I wear a lot of hat for. For some, maybe because I'm the oldest. They, like, a lot of people come to me for everything. You know, maybe that's just the way it's always been for us, me and my brother. Brother. But yeah, we. We take on our fair share of. For sure.

[Lawrence]

Is it fair to say that second layer. Actually, you know what? I have one. One more question about the early days of the brand. How, from. Aesthetically speaking, how has the brand evolved from its earlier days? Like, what you. What did it used to look like before the current sector that we know?

[Josh Willis]

Our. Yeah, I think that our. Our references and our inspiration, like, it was. Was. It was a lot more literal to, like, our, you know, to what we. What we were picturing in our head. You know, I don't think we were there as, like, a brand yet. I, you know, I think that over 12 years, you arrived to this. You know, I think that early days, first couple of seasons even, we had a lot of. We had, you know, a lot of, like, Chicano culture as our. As our inspiration. You know, we were kind of, like, looking at, like, these, you know, these things that had made a mark on our lives growing up, and we just wanted to make them in really, like, nice fabrics. We didn't know how to do that. Yeah, you know, we were buying fabrics from. From, like, secondhand retailers. You know, we were buying, like, Giorgio Armani, like, dead stock fabrics and, you know, trying to make. Trying to make a tailoring in LA with these fabrics because we thought the fabric was so nice right today. I think that we've evolved into, you know, into, like, you know, we kind of hit our stride. I think that there's, like, a lot of things clicking, you know, with what we got going on right now.

[Lawrence]

I mean, we 100% are on board with you on that.

[Josh Willis]

But.

[Lawrence]

But in the larger conversation, is it fair to say that secondary is, like, very underrated in the menswear. In the large, larger menswear conversation? And do you care?

[Josh Willis]

Yes and no. You know, I think it's been. You know, I think it's been methodical in. In that as well. I think that we've. You know, dude, whenever anybody has ever zigged in our life, we've zigged, zagged, you know, and I think that the. It's been intentional to some extent and to some. And to the other extent. Yeah. Sometimes I look around and be like.

[Chris]

I should be getting those flowers. Like, really?

[Josh Willis]

You know, really, you know, but, yeah, I'm not gonna. I'm not gonna look at it like that. You know, I'm gonna look at it like, yo, this is our opportunity. You know, we have a lot of work to do. But I think that our product stands up to, you know, to other products that are out there in the marketplace. I think that our. Our brand, you know, stands up as unique as its own in the marketplace. I think there's a space for it. And so I think we're. You know, I'm gonna take it as an opportunity. You know, everybody knows it. I mean, most. Most of their, you know, the buyers.

[Chris]

And, you know, anyone who counts.

[Josh Willis]

Yeah, there's been some haters, for sure. There's definitely haters. You know, what do the haters say?

[Lawrence]

What can they say?

[Josh Willis]

I know mostly the haters are like, we don't have that client.

[Lawrence]

Okay.

[Josh Willis]

You know, like, when it comes to, like, buyers and like that, like. And I get it. I. I get it. You know, everybody has their own, you know, their own vision of what. Who they're selling to or whatever.

[Chris]

That's their job.

[Josh Willis]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Lawrence]

Maybe.

[Josh Willis]

Maybe they don't. Maybe they don't.

[Lawrence]

But it's also, like. Is a brand that just creates an incredible stuff.

[Josh Willis]

Just.

[Lawrence]

If they're making noise. Right. Or, like, Spectacles.

[Josh Willis]

Cole.

[Lawrence]

Because Lawrence and I were putting together, like, you know, the best brands of the year, and obviously, second layer comes up and, like, Stofa comes up, and it's like, well, okay, what was, like, the. You know, the. The list is more like, what Loud's collaboration was there or they store. Yeah. They got a big profile written on them in a, you know, big magazine or. Or newspaper. And we're like, well, there's so many brands that should be on this list just because they make fire things.

[Chris]

Is that enough? Right? Should be, but it should be.

[Josh Willis]

It should be. For sure. For sure. It should be. I think that there's some retailers that are bringing that to light. I think that, you know, people, you know, there. There's definitely stores that sell our product that I think they're trying to make product the, you know, the mainstay of what they're trying to. What they're trying to. To say to achieve. But, yeah, right now, no, it's not enough.

[Lawrence]

But do you want to do that?

[Josh Willis]

That's what I mean. I was just going there, I was like, it's not enough. But I don't know, like, that's not our dude either. You know that. If that's what that dude needs.

[Chris]

Right.

[Josh Willis]

You have it.

[Lawrence]

Go.

[Chris]

Go a thousand other options.

[Josh Willis]

Go do it.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Josh Willis]

You know what I mean? If you're the. If you're the one out of ten. Dude, that is like, yo, that shit's fire. Whatever. Because that was me, right? That was me growing up. Like, I never had. I never. I never belonged to. Belonged somewhere. I was always like, you know, not brown enough, but, like, you know, too brown for this crowd or, like, you know, I didn't want to. I didn't want to do what my cousins were doing or, like, the neighborhood was doing. I wanted to skate or surf or play sports or, you know, like. And I think that's. That's who our client is. It's like the person who never really had a space, never really felt comfortable in the place that they were at, but just had so much confidence at the same time.

[Chris]

Real swag.

[Josh Willis]

Yeah, real swag. Yeah.

[Lawrence]

I don't need Austin Butler to wear this to want it.

[Josh Willis]

Yeah, yeah, totally. Totally. You know, and. And we need those people for us to shine too. Right. You know, we need. We need that shit for who's going.

[Chris]

To wear it the best too. Because it's. Again, it's authentic and real.

[Josh Willis]

Yeah.

[Chris]

For the wear as well.

[Josh Willis]

Yeah.

[Chris]

Not just you guys.

[Lawrence]

Can we talk about the price point? Because that is something that comes up a lot when, you know, we. When how much we love second wear and people do bring up the price point. Like, how do you explain to your. Or educate people, people, like we said, is necessary with this brand? What goes into that pretty hefty price tag?

[Josh Willis]

Yeah. I mean, you know what? In the beginning, I didn't. I never. I never woke up. And I was like, yo, I'm gonna make the best mid product.

[Lawrence]

You know, a lot of people wake.

[Josh Willis]

Up and we're like.

[Lawrence]

They're like.

[Josh Willis]

They were like, I see. I see an opportunity here.

[Chris]

And the clock is the mid factory. Yeah.

[Lawrence]

Yeah.

[Josh Willis]

Like, I'm gonna make the best mid product that I can.

[Lawrence]

You call that mid? I can do better.

[Josh Willis]

Yeah.

[Chris]

You think, you know mid. You have no idea how mid I.

[Josh Willis]

Much does that one cost? You're like, dude, I, I. I was never. I was never built like that. You know, we wanted to. We wanted to make the best product that we think that we could. And I, you know, the opportunities that we.

[Lawrence]

Gold medal at the mid Olympics, like.

[Josh Willis]

For real, you know, and it's. You. Yes. Can we do better at some product? Have we. Have we had some misses before it made, maybe, you know, am. Am I ever going to a. To a mill or to a factory and being like, being like, yo, like, give me the. Give me the $20 fabric.

[Chris]

Right?

[Josh Willis]

You know? Yeah, no, I'm like, I really like this one. Right. Just. Just so happens that it's the most expensive.

[Chris]

Yeah, totally.

[Josh Willis]

My bad. Yeah.

[Chris]

Sorry.

[Josh Willis]

Yeah. I'm just doing my job, you know, and. And there's. And to some extent, you know, I think that there's categories or the. There's. There's. There's certain sectors in categories that we can, you know, that we can offer things that aren't, you know, the most luxury fabric in that. In that construction, but jeans, I think.

[Lawrence]

Are perfect example that.

[Josh Willis]

I think so too. And, dude, we're not far off on the denim prices or even footwear. Dude, it's not that footwear either, dude. I, you know, I. I think that. I think that our leathers are a little expensive. They're also great, but.

[Lawrence]

Go touch one.

[Josh Willis]

Yeah, totally, totally. You know, can I get. Can I use a lamb instead of, you know, instead of like a, you know, a really nice calf, like. Yeah. And could it have, like, a soft touch? Which. People look at leather sometimes, and they touch a leather. Like, oh, my God, it's so soft. Yeah, it's, you know, glam. Or, you know, it's some other, you know, leather that probably. It doesn't cost as much.

[Lawrence]

Sure.

[Josh Willis]

As a calf, but, you know, price, dude, like I said, you know, it's like, we're trying to make good product. Good product costs you. I don't know, go. You know, you can't get it. You can't. You can't buy a Ferrari at Honda price. So.

[Lawrence]

Okay.

[Josh Willis]

Wow.

[Lawrence]

Incredible. So I always use the. I'm not a car guy, but I always use the car analogy where a lot of men now, young men that have gotten into fashion, you know, their primary concern is price. And it's like, well, if you're into cars, you're not gonna be like, all right, I want the Ferrari engine. But, like, what's the dupe?

[Josh Willis]

Right? Yeah.

[Lawrence]

What's the dupe with the Ferrari engine? Or like, how can I get the Ferrari for cheaper? It's like, well, don't you want what's supposed to be the best, then?

[Chris]

It's not a Ferrari. It's not what you want.

[Josh Willis]

I mean, you can find a lot of dupes of second layer too, though.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Josh Willis]

You know, if. If you.

[Chris]

Is that flattering to you or is that annoying?

[Josh Willis]

I don't care.

[Lawrence]

Yeah. What gets. What gets knocked off the market most?

[Josh Willis]

I think more so just like the swag, the vibes. Yeah, yeah, yeah, the swag, the vibes.

[Lawrence]

So we're not talking about, like, Sheen and like, H and M. We're talking about, like, brands.

[Josh Willis]

Like, brands. Yeah, yeah.

[Chris]

They see the sauce and they try to replicate.

[Josh Willis]

Yeah, yeah. Maybe they feel like they have the same type of sauce too. I. I don't know.

[Lawrence]

Maybe not enough paprika, but you can't.

[Josh Willis]

Do that in a. In a. In a polyurethane jacket. You know what I mean? Like, I don't know. It doesn't make sense to me.

[Chris]

Yeah. You know, and if they are, then it will be advertised on your Instagram feed for sure.

[Josh Willis]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, totally. 100.

[Chris]

That's how I know of them. No, I mean, I was gonna. I could name five right now that I. I want to be.

[Lawrence]

That ain't Sriracha with the. That's Sriracha with the yellow cap, not the green.

[Josh Willis]

Yeah.

[Lawrence]

What about. Okay. Do you think American menswear is in a healthy place?

[Josh Willis]

There's some. I mean, I see a lot of cheap tricks is what I call it sometimes. You know, not the band. No. We've been, you know, me and Aunt, we always. We always talk, you know, we, you know, we can see a cheap trick when you see one. And I don't know, dude, at the same time, I don't really. There's a. There's a lot too. I think that. That, you know, Japan is having a moment, you know, Arlee and.

[Lawrence]

A press. A press.

[Chris]

A press.

[Josh Willis]

Yeah. I think, you know, they have a lot of good things going on, but.

[Chris]

They'Re beating America on our own game almost.

[Josh Willis]

When you, like when you look at. When you look at it, though, I don't know, like, how are we saying it? Are we saying. Because I could. I can name, you know, five really amazing retailers that every single one, every single brand wants to be in, and they'll probably tell you that one of the brands in the top three is an American, is an American designer, you know, and I don't want to say which one.

[Chris]

Right.

[Josh Willis]

But.

[Chris]

Michael Murray.

[Josh Willis]

Yeah. Yeah, that's definitely one Michael Course. No, but, you know, even like Henry at, at, at erd, you know, is, is, you know, is an LA based brand. Even though he's, you know, from Atlanta. You. I've known Henry for, you know, I've known Henry for a long time. I've known him for a long time. I've known him for a long time. And you know, like, like he's always been that, you know, so it's like psychopath. It's never been my, you know, Hell no, it's never been my. And you know, but like, I, I.

[Chris]

Mean, that brand is huge right now.

[Josh Willis]

It's crazy huge, dude.

[Chris]

It's huge resell alone.

[Josh Willis]

And, and, and I'm, you know, and when you look at like that, like, I'm stoked for him. He's an, he's an artist. Like when you, when, you know, when you get down to it. So if I was counting American designers, you know, and if I was looking at retail and saying, what's the state of it? I mean, mean, he's one that's at the top of those retailers list. It's like killing it. But like, I don't know, then you have bright. Then you have some other, like, bright spots too of people that are really trying to like, make something, you know, good. You know, I think that, I think that Guillermo is really trying to make something cool and different. Not it's his thing, but like, different from what he used to do. Yeah.

[Chris]

Doesn't look like anything else really either.

[Josh Willis]

I think that there's a space for it, you know.

[Chris]

Same with you guys. It's like, you know.

[Josh Willis]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I, I, I definitely think there's a space for it. You know, you have some of these other people that kind of, you know, make this conversation a little bit awkward because I love the people I love, you know, I, they've always been nice to me. Right.

[Chris]

The brand sucks ass. Is not for you.

[Josh Willis]

It's not for me, right? It's not for me.

[Lawrence]

And you know, are they the cheap trick folks?

[Josh Willis]

Sometimes, yeah. You got to be a cheap trick if you're selling to fucking. If you're selling to thousands and thousands. If you're selling thousands of. And thousands and thousands of pairs of denim, you know, for $1,000, you know, like, okay, you know, you, you know, you kind of.

[Lawrence]

Doesn't sound very cheap. Well, but okay, so you're, you're, you're, you kind of gave us perspective from the designer side of things, but also, like, I don't know. Like, Lawrence and I, we were in a. We were at a dinner a few weeks ago and you kind of look around the room and it's like, is this, this is the industry?

[Chris]

This is like the Nexus, the best and bright.

[Lawrence]

These are like the important place players, you know? Like, I don't know.

[Chris]

So the room was a little old.

[Josh Willis]

It was old.

[Lawrence]

It smelled crazy in there.

[Chris]

Like what?

[Josh Willis]

Like what? Like what?

[Lawrence]

Adult Pampers? No. Prune juice?

[Josh Willis]

No.

[Lawrence]

But like, is it like, okay, so as a designer, so you can point to people and be like, look, this guy is doing awesome. This team is doing awesome. We're trying to do awesome. But like the whole ecosystem, you know, retail, like, is. It, are the retailers the ecosystem and.

[Josh Willis]

The business is okay? The, the business. This, this business in general, this fashion business. It, they should re. Phrase it like you sweet.

[Lawrence]

You've seen it.

[Josh Willis]

It's barely a business.

[Lawrence]

But it started circling the drain or it's always been.

[Josh Willis]

I don't know about always. Since I've.

[Lawrence]

Since you started.

[Josh Willis]

Since we started. I mean, it's built on a fallacy. It's built on it, you know. Yeah. It's built on these ideas that, that it don't. That don't make any sense. Like, you're supposed to, you're supposed to give net terms to a store that's going to sell your stuff, but you're paying for six months in advance as a brand.

[Lawrence]

Yeah.

[Josh Willis]

What. Like how does that. And then, then when you do sell the stuff, like, you're still waiting past that net terms time to like, collect on the money. Like, that's not a business, it's a fucking hobby at some point, you know, a. Yeah. And the only way for people to, you know, to grow is to have a ton of money. And that's why a lot of these people that are doing really well, they come from that, you know, they come from that or they have big backing, they have this LVMH money or they have these, you know, the Kieran Group money, whatever it is, you know, they're, they're, they're funded, you know.

[Lawrence]

Have you guys ever been approached about funding or, or getting back workers? And would you want that?

[Josh Willis]

Not. No, not from any of those people that I mentioned. But like, there's been people, you know, like I said, you know, I've had, I've had my hood friends hit me up to be like, yo, what do you need? And I've had, you know, I've had, you know, VC dudes be like, hey, what are you Doing. How can we. What do you need? Like, those types of things and those conversations. Just.

[Lawrence]

Do you trust the hood guys more? The VC guys more?

[Josh Willis]

Me? Yeah. The hood guys. Yeah.

[Chris]

Correct answer.

[Josh Willis]

Yeah. The hood guys rather get a brown.

[Lawrence]

Paper bag than a terms.

[Josh Willis]

Yeah, yeah. You know, and blood money. You know, my boy. My boy has been, you know, has been down for this since he saw a little sparkle. And he's never hit me up and been like, yo, dog, it's time to pay up. You know what I mean? Because everybody's down for the ride. You know what I mean? But no, this. This fashion. This fashion thing, dude, it's. It's. It's. It's. It's broken to me.

[Chris]

So it's just a labor of love, really, at this point, like, trying to.

[Josh Willis]

Figure out you can make a little bit of money. You know, there's people out there making money for sure. You know? For sure.

[Lawrence]

The term. The terms are from a. For a brand selling to stores is nuts because.

[Josh Willis]

Yeah.

[Lawrence]

You got to fund it now, you sell it for later, and then you collect even further down the road.

[Josh Willis]

Yes. How does.

[Chris]

While trying to make the next thing. Yeah.

[Josh Willis]

While trying to make the next thing and while trying to make new seeds samples. While trying to make the next production.

[Lawrence]

You're, like, cheap and improve upon.

[Chris]

Yes.

[Lawrence]

Like, you guys are in the business of improving upon last season.

[Josh Willis]

Yes.

[Lawrence]

You're not just. You're not settling for the midairy.

[Josh Willis]

Yes.

[Chris]

What about breaking out of that seasonal model and leaning on dtc? I know you guys do some of that, but.

[Josh Willis]

Yeah, that sounds great, but we. But like, as a.

[Chris]

As.

[Josh Willis]

At the same time, the reason why I say it's broken is because you. You need that wholesale business to fund your retail business, your direct. Your direct consumer business. Or else. Yeah, you can do direct consumer, but you just have to fund it.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Josh Willis]

Like, you know, so if you can fund it straight up, like, yeah, that totally makes sense for sure. But I need to go out and get these wholesale orders so I can, you know, I can fund my. You know, my orders.

[Chris]

Yep.

[Josh Willis]

That's just. That's just the. That's just the lay of the land.

[Chris]

The nature of the beast.

[Lawrence]

Yeah. The house of cards. All right, Josh, as we close out 2025, in your humble opinion, how should men be dressing in 2025? 6. What do we want to see more of? What do we want to see less of?

[Josh Willis]

Yeah. More second layer facts.

[Lawrence]

Cheat code.

[Josh Willis]

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, dude, dress like you give a. You know, for sure. Yeah. First and foremost, Loosen up on the trousers a little bit. Invest. Invest in key pieces like a leather with a. With a timeless shape or with something that. That. That stands out like the Mad Dog. And like I said, make sure your first l. Your first layer is on point, because it don't matter how you're dressing if your isn't like, starting or at least on its way to being tightened up like, you got a lot more to worry about than what the you're wearing.

[Lawrence]

Well, your second layer is how you express your first layer. Right? So if your first layer is your second, where it's gonna look like dog too.

[Josh Willis]

Yep, yep. Exactly. Exactly.

[Lawrence]

Go to therapy, kids. What's the one piece of clothing you've worn the most this past year? And you. Do you do owe me that answer?

[Josh Willis]

I do. I do. Am I supposed to email that to you? Do I still got some time? Probably the. Probably the hats and the boots.

[Lawrence]

Oh, yeah, these boots.

[Josh Willis]

These boots.

[Chris]

The rider boots.

[Josh Willis]

Yeah, the rider boots.

[Chris]

And the J.

[Josh Willis]

Crew hat is tough, dude. The Charo boot. I bring that. I brought that one.

[Lawrence]

Is that the square one?

[Chris]

Chiseled, baby.

[Lawrence]

They're so, so good.

[Josh Willis]

I love that.

[Chris]

So many people ask, dude, we need ID on the boot.

[Josh Willis]

ID on the boot, dude, please. Thank you so much.

[Chris]

Oh, thank you.

[Josh Willis]

Are they not.

[Lawrence]

Are they not in the current rotation? They are online or for sale?

[Josh Willis]

Yeah, they're. Yeah, they're for sale.

[Chris]

Chocolate suede. Those might be gone.

[Josh Willis]

Those are coming back. Oh, those are coming back.

[Chris]

Mark your calendars, friends.

[Josh Willis]

Those are coming back for SS26.

[Chris]

Let's go, baby.

[Josh Willis]

Yeah, people might do.

[Lawrence]

I might do a rare on Pod Cop.

[Josh Willis]

Dude, that. That Charo boot. That Charo boo, it's so good, dude. Okay, can I get to that because. Because you're wearing a square tote.

[Chris]

I'm wearing the camon.

[Josh Willis]

Great start to a. To a classic, you know, Margiela silhouette.

[Chris]

Absolutely.

[Josh Willis]

That is. I've always loved that silhouette. Great, great start. I just think that ours is the, The. The. The evolution.

[Chris]

I think so too.

[Lawrence]

The Charo.

[Josh Willis]

Yes, the Charo.

[Lawrence]

It's like this is entry level square toe for sure.

[Josh Willis]

Yeah.

[Chris]

I mean, this is like, cuz, you know, there's, you know, cowboy boys, there's almond toe, and there's like, you know, your traditional. This is like the kind of perfect Nexus point of all this stuff, which, honestly, in. In my opinion, makes it the most versatile you can wear with everything.

[Josh Willis]

I think so too. I know so too.

[Chris]

Get the black pair and wear with a tuxedo.

[Josh Willis]

Yes.

[Lawrence]

Which I did Your wedding. Oh, no, you were.

[Josh Willis]

It was a tux, but. Yeah, but like it was dressed exactly. Yeah. And then you could throw it on with some denim and it's like.

[Chris]

It is. It's a. It's a. That's. That shape is. I think the. The signature could also boot for me.

[Lawrence]

Could kick a field goal with them.

[Josh Willis]

Hundred kicking, for sure.

[Lawrence]

What's the. Okay, besides the J. Crew hat mall brand hat, what's the last non second layer piece of clothing.

[Josh Willis]

You purchased for yourself? Last non second layer clothing?

[Chris]

Some erd with a swastika.

[Josh Willis]

I. I didn't. I. I didn't purchase it, but I'm. I was very. I was very thankful for the. The gift from my friends at Departmento. It was a. I wanted to. It was a row beanie, a cashmere.

[Chris]

Oh, it's on the trip for the.

[Josh Willis]

Weather that Shawna stole from me.

[Chris]

Ah, yeah.

[Lawrence]

How much. How much clothing is. Sean, your wife steal from you?

[Josh Willis]

If she can steal whatever she wants, she could have whatever she wants.

[Lawrence]

Another story.

[Josh Willis]

Whatever it is, it doesn't amount to what she's owed. Do.

[Lawrence]

Do you guys have a female clientele?

[Josh Willis]

Yeah, a little bit small. Small. But like, there's definitely ones and there's ones that came in the past as.

[Lawrence]

Well because there's some unisex stuff. And like we said, it's like, it's. It's tough but sexy.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Josh Willis]

And if it's it. You know what? Here's the thing. We might not have too many female clients. We want to grow that for sure. We think that there's a space for that for us. You got the. But every. It's a testament because every girl wants to steal it from her dude. For sure. For sure.

[Chris]

That's. The proof is in the pudding, my friends.

[Josh Willis]

Yes.

[Lawrence]

What does a men's fashion victim look like in la besides standing in line at Maru?

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Josh Willis]

I mean, to me, it's that tik tok swag. That, like, balloony type of, like, lower bottom thing. The hair's busting. Stupid hair. The dumbass. Dumbass hair hood.

[Lawrence]

It's the shag dog.

[Josh Willis]

Like, I'd rather see a Edgar than that. Than that.

[Chris]

Edgar's classic compared to some broccoli swag.

[Josh Willis]

Dude, that is crazy.

[Chris]

And.

[Josh Willis]

And you know what else, too? Like, I love the vintage, kids. I really do. I. I do love the vintage.

[Chris]

Does it look like a costume to you?

[Lawrence]

What?

[Josh Willis]

What?

[Lawrence]

What?

[Josh Willis]

Here's where I'm going with this. Like, not everything needs to be vintage because, like, you're into underwear, you know, I love the mix. I love, I love the. Yes, I love the mix. I think the mix is a great middle ground. When you go too far in either, you know, either direction, you're missing.

[Lawrence]

When you're talking vintage kids in la, is it like, like, what are we talking about? Are we talking about like the. The archive kids or like The Single Stitch, 1950s Archive Kids?

[Josh Willis]

Dude, you mean all the kids that are buying that nobody wanted then anyways. Get the out of here. Like, no, nobody cared about the 2004 John. John Paul Gaultier. So nobody cared about that then.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Josh Willis]

Why do you think they care about it now? Nobody cares about that.

[Lawrence]

Because it's available. Yeah.

[Chris]

Because they want to.

[Josh Willis]

Nobody wanted it, you know, mid condition. Yeah. Fuck, dude, the archive kids. I would love to see somebody's archive that I actually liked.

[Chris]

That's a challenge. I don't think anyone is going to be able to step up to.

[Josh Willis]

Yeah. What was the other.

[Lawrence]

Are you talking about like the, like the single stitch, 1950s?

[Josh Willis]

Like, to me, that's. I like that. Personally, I like that a little bit more, but I don't really give a. I don't really give a.

[Lawrence]

But it's also like if you're wearing.

[Josh Willis]

That, that, if that. But if that kid also has never been to Japan. Right. Miss me? Like, you've missed the whole. You missed a whole. A whole thing, you know? Like, you can't just do it online, bro.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Josh Willis]

Like, you gotta go. And just like when we were growing up, like, if you wanted to go see something, you had to seek it out.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Josh Willis]

Like you had to get on a train, get on a plane, get on auto, go. Like you had to do it all just to go to the store, feel it, feel uncomfortable in the store because you couldn't afford anything. Like. Yeah, like, go through, go through all that. Yeah, go through all that.

[Chris]

Sure.

[Josh Willis]

Come back and like, talk to me about something. Right.

[Lawrence]

Do you think there's any, any, any pendulum swinging back towards that at all or is it still just everyone? It's just. I think there is. Okay.

[Josh Willis]

No, I think there is.

[Lawrence]

Kids.

[Josh Willis]

All right. Yeah. And. Yeah, you know, just like with, you know, print, print things. I, I think that there's a. I think that there's a slight like, drift back to analog almost. Right. You know, I mean, look at everybody with their fancy record players in their, in their houses, their wired headphones, you know.

[Lawrence]

Yo, CDs up next.

[Chris]

Yeah, get CDs for cheap, dude, they're cheap. I have all my CDs still.

[Josh Willis]

Ds dude, what's those CDs?

[Chris]

I can't play them, but I got.

[Lawrence]

What do you. What do you want for Christmas? A CD player?

[Chris]

Yeah, a. A disc man. No, what do you.

[Lawrence]

I mean, you're.

[Chris]

You know, we get.

[Lawrence]

You got a. Your wife in the audience here. What are you hoping to get for Christmas this year?

[Josh Willis]

No, I. This Christmas, we were blessed to be able to contribute to a family from our. That we chose those from our church and. And we were able to provide them with a. Hopefully a good Christmas, a great Christmas, I think, for. So for us. We for. Went our gifts to each other and we put it all in there and. Wow.

[Chris]

Nice.

[Josh Willis]

Yeah.

[Chris]

Look at that.

[Lawrence]

Damn. That's the nicest thing anyone on this podcast has ever done.

[Josh Willis]

You've had.

[Chris]

I want to do watch.

[Josh Willis]

You guys have had a lot of. A lot of good people and a.

[Lawrence]

Lot of bad people.

[Josh Willis]

Yeah.

[Lawrence]

Morally speaking. Yeah. Entertaining, but morally atrocious.

[Chris]

Great conversations.

[Josh Willis]

Trying morally as well to be.

[Lawrence]

No, Most people are like, I want a new car.

[Chris]

I want to watch probably like a vintage Range Rover or like a new ap. I don't know, something like that.

[Lawrence]

A Vinty Brony.

[Josh Willis]

I don't need any of that. I just need to be able to ship my next collection on.

[Chris]

True.

[Lawrence]

That is true.

[Chris]

Just on time. The gift of time, dude. That's what you need, is more time.

[Josh Willis]

Yeah.

[Lawrence]

Besides. Besides helping out marginalized folks and those in need, what else do you like to spend your money on?

[Josh Willis]

Experience.

[Lawrence]

Experiences like travel.

[Josh Willis]

Yeah. Yeah, we went to. We were just on our honeymoon. We went to. Well, I made. I made Shawna go to work with me on our.

[Lawrence]

I was gonna say you guys were on a honeymoon, but you're also at factories.

[Chris]

Well, how romantic.

[Josh Willis]

We went to Italy because we got a blessing from the Pope. A newlywed blessing. Oh, yeah. Yeah.

[Chris]

How's he. How's he like.

[Josh Willis]

Papa Leo is a. Oh, the American Pope. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Chris]

From Chicago.

[Josh Willis]

Yeah.

[Lawrence]

Hit him with a leather, bro.

[Chris]

No, the white boots.

[Lawrence]

Yo.

[Josh Willis]

That would be the metal.

[Chris]

I guess they need to be red for him, right?

[Josh Willis]

Yeah, no, red socks. Red socks. White boots, White boots. Gotcha, gotcha, gotcha. No, but yeah, we got a blessing from the Pope then from there. Sha went to school in Florence, so we spent some time in Florence.

[Lawrence]

Wait, did you, like. When you say blessing, you, like, met the Pope?

[Josh Willis]

So the. They do Sposi novelli, which is like a newlywed blessing during one of his. His papal visits to, you know, to the. In St. Peter's Square. Yeah.

[Lawrence]

So it's like A group.

[Josh Willis]

Like it's a large group, but then our group was like very small and intimate within the larger group.

[Chris]

He comes and you have the VIP package.

[Josh Willis]

Like the VIP fast pass the meat.

[Lawrence]

Take a quick selfie.

[Josh Willis]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So yeah, we. Yeah, we took that all in. That was, that was really cool.

[Lawrence]

What was the fit?

[Josh Willis]

What was the blessing fit? Yeah, yeah, it was pico. A pico double bless double rested jacket. A. A really slim, slim, like nice tea underneath, like the. And then a Smiths. Yeah, yeah, no, and then a white. A white psycho trouser, which is like our pleated. Our pleated trouser that we do. And the black boots. And Shauna had a really, really pretty little kind of suit. What do you call it? Like a suit.

[Lawrence]

And your robeinie.

[Josh Willis]

Yeah, yeah, the Robin. Yeah, no, she had a little Montia, like a, like a lace. Ah, right, right.

[Chris]

As is customary, naturally.

[Josh Willis]

Yeah, yeah.

[Lawrence]

So experiences. Like getting blessed by the Pope.

[Josh Willis]

Sorry. So experiences. And then we went to San Sebastian. San Sebastian was resurfing. Yeah, I surfed. Surfed in San Sebastian.

[Lawrence]

What was the food like up there? You guys going crazy?

[Josh Willis]

I was just going to. Dude, have you ever been. No go. You're the, you're the guy for like you love. You're a foodie. Dude.

[Lawrence]

Are the lines crazy for everything?

[Josh Willis]

Like, yes and no. I mean, we, we went in. What was that? October. So it was, it was chill. It was super chill. I'm sure in summertime it's jam packed.

[Lawrence]

What was the best thing you had at San Sebastian? What was the best tapa?

[Josh Willis]

Well, they're pinchos there.

[Lawrence]

Pinchos.

[Josh Willis]

Yeah, pinchos. In the Basque region, they best thing I had was not a pincho, it was a burger.

[Lawrence]

Because the meat pause is crazy, right?

[Josh Willis]

Yeah.

[Chris]

They take their meat seriously.

[Josh Willis]

Yeah.

[Chris]

Bar.

[Josh Willis]

Bar Desi. Bar Desi has an amazing burger. And then after the burger I had a cheesecake, a traditional, traditional Basque cheesecake. And this and this burnt. Yep. And this was about 10:30 in the morning.

[Chris]

Oh yeah, look at this. Yeah, look at this burger.

[Lawrence]

Dude.

[Josh Willis]

It was about 10:30 in the morning after I served surf. So I surfed and then went and had like a Michelin rated burger.

[Chris]

It's one of the best burgers like in the world. I mean, this looks crazy.

[Josh Willis]

Everyone is like insane. It's insane.

[Chris]

What's the cheese on it or what's the sauce? What's on it?

[Josh Willis]

Yeah, the cheese is like a cream cheese almost. It's.

[Chris]

It looks good, dude.

[Josh Willis]

Banging, banging, banging. But that that bass cheesecake hits different.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Lawrence]

What's the best burger in LA right now? I know you got. I know you boys love your burgers.

[Josh Willis]

My burgers that I make.

[Chris]

Oh, yeah.

[Josh Willis]

At home.

[Lawrence]

Are you, are you, are you a big cook? Big meat?

[Josh Willis]

I'm a barbecuer. I'm a barbecuer. Yeah. Meat. Yeah. You know us, you know us Chicanos. Yeah, we love, we love a carne asada. So anything over fire, I, I only do over fire or like mesquite or, or brisket. But I love my burger. Right, right. Yeah.

[Lawrence]

JDub. JDub's home cooking.

[Josh Willis]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Lawrence]

Suck it off the bone.

[Josh Willis]

Little. Little, little. Little really thin slice Havardi and a super thin slice speck.

[Chris]

Okay.

[Josh Willis]

So it gives it kind of like the little smoky. A little smoky oldness to it.

[Chris]

Fancy bacon burger.

[Lawrence]

What? What? So this is the J Dub Cookout JDub.

[Josh Willis]

If you're at a J Dub cookout, it would be, it would just, it would be a straight up Garnet Salada. Okay. Yeah, we're doing a.

[Lawrence]

The pickup truck full of just ice and Modelos.

[Josh Willis]

Oh, I love that. Yeah, the.

[Lawrence]

Dude, that's how you guys do like a three year old's birthday, right?

[Josh Willis]

Pepe got jacked. My 94 Toyota. Toyota pickup. Dude.

[Chris]

I thought you by the streets.

[Josh Willis]

Yeah, that should have been paid off since 92. You know, dude, it got jacked. So that would. That was the one they throw. You throw all the ice in the modis in Pacificos.

[Lawrence]

Yeah, model's with the fellows. What's the dumbest purchase you made recently?

[Josh Willis]

Dumbest. I don't have too many dumb. I, I can't afford dumb purchases. Yeah, I like that.

[Chris]

Being too cheap to make a dumb purchase.

[Josh Willis]

Yeah, no, I don't, I don't, I don't, I don't make dumb purchases.

[Chris]

You'll never catch me lacking. No, I don't got the bread for it.

[Josh Willis]

And if I, and if I did, like I said. Said, like I said, we're, you know, dude, I'd rather get. I'd rather give some.

[Chris]

Right?

[Josh Willis]

Give it to somebody or. Yeah, that's beautiful.

[Chris]

You need any more reason to shop this brand besides being incredible? It's run by incredible people too.

[Josh Willis]

Yeah, we're trying, man.

[Lawrence]

We want to ask you to give us something, which is our last question. Give us some constructive criticism.

[Josh Willis]

Yeah.

[Lawrence]

Now that we've been chilling for almost two hours.

[Josh Willis]

Yeah, I mean, keep doing what you guys are doing. You, you. I mean, I, I've known you guys for a while for, you know, A long time almost. And I told you the first time.

[Lawrence]

We hung out, I. I very stupidly wore a. A blooded fitted while going out in Venice, which was very stupid.

[Josh Willis]

You weren't in C. That's.

[Chris]

That's the dumbest purchase that you've made, bro.

[Josh Willis]

Yeah, you're not at C City.

[Lawrence]

I was like, you guys like my red hat.

[Josh Willis]

Dang. That really.

[Lawrence]

That was a long time ago.

[Josh Willis]

That makes me think of. Of my. Of my boy Sponto.

[Chris]

Oh yeah.

[Josh Willis]

But what was the question?

[Chris]

Constructive criticism for us. Oh, dude, we're just in the glazing portion.

[Josh Willis]

Yeah. Like I said, like I said. Even when I met you. Even when I met you then, you know, I think the first thing that I met Lawrence at capsule.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Josh Willis]

Probably shout out Chris.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Josh Willis]

Plus plus Chris child.

[Chris]

Plus plus.

[Josh Willis]

The.

[Lawrence]

The prince of menswear.

[Chris]

Slowly aging out Chris.

[Lawrence]

You gotta stop trying to make that nickname happen.

[Josh Willis]

No, I said that I loved your. I loved your writing. I loved, you know, all the four pin.

[Chris]

Thank you.

[Josh Willis]

I thought let like what it was then was, was a bright spot in like something that people take so serious. That is not serious at all. We're not saving lives. We're just doing fashion.

[Chris]

That's exactly right, sir.

[Josh Willis]

Just doing fashion. And. And I think you guys have like continue that. I think you guys are a bright spot in this, in this, in this world of. Of fashion people. I listen to you and I laugh. I. I learn. I. You know, you guys are. You guys are. You guys are doing your thing. Thanks, bro. Yeah, keep. Keep doing that.

[Chris]

Hell yeah.

[Lawrence]

This was a long time coming.

[Chris]

Absolutely.

[Lawrence]

I think the. This first thing, maybe second thing I said when found out you're coming to New York was a pod. Come on, pod.

[Josh Willis]

You did.

[Lawrence]

So Josh and Shawna, we're so happy that you guys took the time out of your vacation to talk cracks. Have some yucks.

[Josh Willis]

Yeah.

[Lawrence]

Hopefully teach at home something. A thing or two, but learn yourself something, fool.

[Josh Willis]

Yeah.

[Lawrence]

We want to thank you for coming on to the only Podcast Matters. Where can the kids follow you? What would you like to plug?

[Josh Willis]

Thank you, thank you, thank you. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. First before I get to that, shout out to everybody who has ever supported us. All of my friends and all of my family, my pops, you know, everybody that has thrown down for this situation. Juju, Baby Ray, Baby Ray, Playboy Baby Ray. Yeah. Carly, my cousins. Like everybody, all the gente. You know, shout out, shout out. Definitely my. My sales staff, you know, plus plus Simon, Hideki in Japan, our factories. Massimo, everybody. Thank you. You know shout out to everybody that's ever it's gotten us here and I'm gonna keep fighting to take us, you know further. You can find us at Second layer underscore us better.

[Lawrence]

Let's get that verified.

[Josh Willis]

And then second Layer player underscore JW which is my personal stands for J Dub. Yep yep. Playboys Instagram Mexican House Party Volume 2.

[Chris]

We've had a conversation many times about the best IP handles. Jake's is incredible.

[Josh Willis]

That's a bad because Volume 1 got.

[Chris]

Jacked.

[Josh Willis]

And then and then my brother from a different mother from Antipatavon Visual reception is his Instagram. Give us a follow and thanks for.

[Chris]

All the support and also second layer us make a purchase for the holidays.

[Josh Willis]

We would. We would definitely we would definitely be thankful for sure.

[Lawrence]

Hoping to send some folks your way. Josh, thank you again for coming on to the only podcast. Great to see you guys. Chef, take us out.

[Josh Willis]

Beautiful Anonymous changes each week. It defies genres and expectations. For example, for example, our most recent episode, I talked to a woman who survived a murder attempt by her own son. But just the week before that, we just talked the whole time about Star Trek. We've had other recent episodes about sexting in languages that are not your first language or what it's like to get weight loss surgery. It's unpredictable. It's real, it's honest. It's raw. Get Beautiful Anonymous Wherever you listen to podcasts, does your child dread going to school every day? It's time to try Oregon Trotter Account Academy. Our online school offers interactive learning in a safe environment with a dynamic and responsive curriculum. Providing your student with support to thrive will bring you relief knowing you found just what your child needs. Don't wait. Enroll today@oregon charter.org and see the difference it makes for your child. Oregon Charter Academy what learning should be.