Transcript

Josh Willis (0:00)

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Lawrence (0:27)

To be clear, that's half price, not half the service. Mint is still premium unlimited wireless for a great price.

Josh Willis (0:34)

So that means a half day. You know, give it a try@mintmobile.com Switch.

Lawrence (0:40)

Upfront payment of $45 for three month.

Josh Willis (0:42)

Plan equivalent to $15 per month required. New customer offer for first three months only. Speed slow. 135 GB of networks busy taxes and fees extra. See mobile.com Suave.

Lawrence (0:51)

Our guest this week has accomplished one of the genuinely rarest feats on earth. Having an LA based brand that doesn't suck butt. He's a man of many layers, creating tailor made daily wear from one of the best brands in the world. That is still somehow underrated. And maybe that's on purpose. He took a brief pause during his east coast vacation and warm up in the studio and rip a pod with two of his biggest fans. Get off his wave kooks because here to chat the current state of American menswear, sexy textiles and romanticizing the past, the co founder, designer, creative director and janitor of Second Layer, Josh Willis. Josh, how the hell are you?

Josh Willis (1:23)

Yo. That was crazy.

Lawrence (1:26)

How's my, how's my swap of se.

Josh Willis (1:27)

That was amazing. That was great. That, that, that definitely that's why I came.

Chris (1:31)

All right, that's New York Hospital.

Josh Willis (1:33)

See you guys. Yeah. Yeah, you can go out into the cold now. No, I'm good. I'm gonna stay in here, drink some beers.

Lawrence (1:38)

You're the, you're the chatty or second layer.

Josh Willis (1:42)

Most days.

Summary

Throwing Fits – The Josh Willis Interview with Throwing Fits

Date: December 15, 2025
Guest: Josh Willis (Co-founder, designer & creative director of Second Layer)
Hosts: Lawrence & Chris

Episode Overview

This episode features Josh Willis, the multi-hyphenate mind behind LA’s Second Layer, a brand acclaimed for its nuanced, tactile approach to American menswear. The conversation is a candid, wide-ranging look at building an independent brand in a tough industry, the realities of running and growing Second Layer, the LA scene, textile obsessions, and balancing authenticity and evolution with hard business lessons. Josh, joined in New York by his wife Shauna, details the state of menswear, his passion for materials, and reveals what keeps him inspired (and afloat) twelve years into Second Layer's journey.

Key Discussion Points

1. Second Layer – The Realities of Running an Independent Brand

Multiple hats: Josh describes being "the janitor" of the company, doing everything from accounting to marketing and cleaning up after others.
Quote: “Most of the days having your own brand, dude, 90% of the time, it just gets dumped on you daily.” (01:54)
Authenticity and keeping it small: Second Layer’s reputation is built on their authenticity—real references and work, not just designing for trends.
Family business dynamic: The brand is largely handled by a close-knit team and Josh’s brother, Jake (“playboy”), who handles customer service.

2. Fit Check & Product Nerding (02:27–18:09)

Josh breaks down his clothes and their stories in a classic Throwing Fits segment:
- Boots: Second Layer’s Rider boots – Goodyear-welted, brown suede, made in Italy.
  Development time: “A couple months, in Italy, at our factory there.” (03:06)
- Denim: Big Poppy trousers, “blacked raw,” and an indigo rinse—Josh’s most-worn jeans and his favorite fit for big thighs.
- Knits: The Vex V-neck in mohair—focus on textile quality.
  “Knits are probably one of my favorite things to work on because the yarn, you always know what you’re paying for based on what the yarn you’re getting.” (09:37)
- Jewelry: Good Art silver, a Rolex Explorer (gift from his father).
- Accessories: J.Crew x Harris Tweed Dodgers cap, Port Tanger shades.
- Underwear: Vintage Nike boxer briefs—“I cannot find them again!”
Deep dive into fabrication: differences in yarns, mohair (the itchiness!), and pursuit of “real” materials.
Customer Service Q&A: Sizing quirks and why the brand doesn’t use strict size charts.
- Jake handles CS: “That’s a Jake problem.” (12:23)

3. Origins: Roots, LA, Japan, and Brand Ethos (18:12–29:00)

Josh’s journey from skate/surf culture in Riverside/Inland Empire to fashion in LA, deep involvement in the creative recreation sneaker scene, and significant time spent sourcing and referencing in Japan.
- “Japan definitely has my heart forever.” (08:58)
Baseball and surfing influences: “You’re like Jerry Lorenzo in that way.” (14:42)
On LA vs. NY: The good (outerwear weather, tight crew) and the bad (rats, superficial neighborhood culture).
- “Superficial taste” LA experiences for NYers visiting—LA is modular, a “smattering of villages.” (35:39)
Community: Second Layer’s clients become family; nicknames abound (Baby Ray, JDub).

4. Second Layer’s Product Philosophy (29:04–41:21)

Product is tactile and “sexy”: “Product first, it’s so tactile… as a fabric nerd, textile is everything.” (29:04)
Standout recent fabric: Recycled Tencel shirts/jackets and baggy pants for SS25.
Leather: A constant quest for the right tanneries (currently shifting Tuscany vendors).
Moves from LA to Italy/Portugal/Japan for higher standards in tailoring and fabrication.
Josh on the “pull” of Second Layer: “Wear Second Layer, you pull… that would be my elevator pitch.” (33:06)
- Elevator pitch, tongue-in-cheek: “No article of clothing can turn you into the man or woman you want to be… without you having your first layer figured out. That’s why we’re Second Layer.” (34:07)

5. Brand Growth, Business Realities, and Retail (41:21–54:15)

Business vs. Product:
“The brand and the product are becoming dialed. The business has been what we’ve been lacking." (40:38)
Production struggles: Balancing perfection, scaling up, being on time for two seasons in a row—a major highlight of 2025.
Margin & exclusivity: Small production runs (sometimes only 20 units for leathers).
Growth markets: The US (esp. LA and NY) and Japan—“Japan is how you know it’s good.” (46:01)
Differences in US vs. Japanese customers: Slow, methodical shopping from Japanese clients, Americans more impulsive/repeat buyers.
Retail dreams: Plans for a brick-and-mortar store in LA or Newport Beach; debate over main LA or destination location.

6. Footwear, Categories & The Modern Menswear Landscape (56:00–63:00)

Footwear expansion: Obsessed with “future classic” boots; craving to add a sneaker, but bemoaning the state of sneakers in recent years.
Leathers: Josh’s go-to is Second Layer’s current leopard leather jacket (“If I could only keep one…” 60:37); the Mad Dog jacket is a brand signature and “platonic ideal.”
Canvas/wool options: As entry-level alternatives to leather for new clients.
Self-funding the brand: Drain-your-bank scary, but necessary. Support from friends, family, "the hood"—not VCs.
Quote: “I had no money to lose… I had a decent amount of Creative Rec money. There was no thought into it—it was like, this is what we’re gonna do.” (63:12)

7. Survival, Community, and Money (69:49–74:59)

Broke stories:
“Hiding your whip so it doesn’t get repoed… this life isn’t for everybody dog.” (70:13)
On real wealth: Surviving challenges (deaths, setbacks, betrayals) led to a focus on health, family, and spirit.
Working with his brother Jake: “Brothers come before everything… whose car are we taking?” (73:20)
Division of labor: Ant handles graphics/design, Jake does ops/accounting, Josh leads fabrics, new shapes, and the business “janitor.”
Real talk: Frequent arguments, but always move on quickly.

8. Underrated, Methodical, and Out of Step (by Choice) (77:12–81:22)

Second Layer as “underrated”: Intentional, methodical approach—never chasing hype for hype’s sake.
- “Whenever anybody has ever zigged, we’ve zig-zagged.” (78:53)
The brand’s client: The confident outsider, never fully at home in any scene.
- “Never belonged somewhere, but just had so much confidence at the same time.” (82:09)
Price and duplicates:
- Never chasing “mid”—always choosing the best fabrics, even if that means a higher price point.
  “I never woke up thinking, I’m gonna make the best mid product.” (82:55)
- Others may copy the ‘vibe,’ but not the real quality.

9. American Menswear & Industry Critique (86:32–94:09)

Industry health: Sees “cheap tricks” and trend-chasing, but points to bright spots—Erd (Henry), Guillermo’s new work, acknowledges Rick Owens’ commercial dominance.
The business model is “broken”: Net terms, late payments, the need for large cash to scale—a system favoring big backers. Quote: “You’re paying for six months in advance as a brand, then waiting past that net terms time to collect… That’s not a business, it’s a hobby.” (91:19)
Wholesale funding DTC: “You need that wholesale business to fund your retail business.” (93:41)

10. Style Guidance & The Future (94:09–98:46)

How men should dress in 2025/26:
- “Dress like you give a fuck. Loosen up on the trousers. Invest in key pieces with timeless shape—like a leather, a Mad Dog. Make sure your first layer is on point... no article of clothing can do it for you.” (94:26)
Most-worn items (2025): Rider boots and J.Crew hat.
Best value in footwear: Second Layer’s Charo boot vs. classic square toes.
Last non-Second Layer purchase: A Row beanie (gifted to wife Shauna).
Women's product: Small but growing female clientele, many women “steal from their dudes,” suggesting unisex appeal is working.

11. LA Fashion Critique & Broader Cultural Jabs (98:23–101:06)

LA fashion “victims”:
- “That TikTok swag… balloony type… dumbass hair.” (98:32)
- “Rather see an Edgar than that broccoli swag.”
Vintage kids: Likes vintage, but warns against wearing nothing but era costumes or archive for the sake of it—“If you haven’t been to Japan, miss me.”

12. Philosophy, Generosity & Personal Life (101:39–106:54)

Experiences over things: For Christmas, Josh and Shauna forwent gifts to provide for a local family in need.
Preferred spends: Travel, food experiences ("surfing in San Sebastián, Basque cheesecake, making carne asada at home").
Culinary love: “J Dub’s” home burgers beat LA restaurants, and family carne asada is his ideal cook-out.

13. Constructive Criticism & Wrap-Up (108:25–end)

Josh to the Throwing Fits boys: “Keep doing what you’re doing… you guys are a bright spot in a world where people take things too seriously… I listen, I laugh, I learn.” (110:04)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

On Independent Struggle:
“This life isn’t for everybody, dog. You could have a million dollars in your account one day and by the end, it’s negative… what doesn’t break you, makes you tougher.” (70:13)
On Second Layer’s “Pull”:
“You wear Second Layer, you pull.” (33:06)
On Brand Identity:
“No article of clothing… can turn you into the man or woman you want to be… without you having your first layer figured out. That’s why we’re Second Layer.” (34:07)
On the Business Model:
"You’re paying for six months in advance as a brand, then waiting past that net terms time to collect… That’s not a business, it’s a hobby at some point.” (91:19)
On Menswear Client:
“Our client is the person who never really had a space, never felt comfortable where they were, but had confidence.” (82:09)
On the Price Question:
“You can’t buy a Ferrari at Honda price.” (85:13)
On Copycats:
“Maybe they feel they have the same type of sauce, too… but you can't do that in a polyurethane jacket.” (86:07)

Timestamps for Important Segments

Fit check: 02:27–18:09
Second Layer’s specialness explained: 25:13–29:04
Textile/Fabric talk: 29:04–31:59
LA style/industry critique: 35:39–38:01, 86:32–88:21
Business struggles & growth: 41:21–43:43
Future plans (retail/shop): 51:40–52:55
Price point and fabric realities: 82:46–85:13
Style guidance for 2025/6: 94:09–95:13
Personal philosophy/generosity: 101:39–102:45

Where to Find Second Layer & Josh

Instagram:
- @secondlayer_us
- @secondlayer_player_jw (Josh – “J Dub”)
Shop: Second Layer

Tone & Language

The episode is casual, honest, and peppered with the self-deprecating humor and camaraderie that define Throwing Fits. Josh is candid, thoughtful, at times vulnerable but always real—a craftsman and hustler who cares more about the fabric and the family than the hype. The hosts match his energy, blending in-jokes, industry insider slang, and love for “grown dirtbag” authenticity.

In Short

Come for the gear talk, stay for a hard-earned education in building an underrated, beloved brand from scratch—and all the tribulations, small victories, and wisdom gained along the way.