22 SAS Operator | Duncan Baillie

Summary

Tier1 Podcast — Episode 22 Summary

Guest: Duncan Baillie, 22 SAS Operator
Host: Brent Tucker
Date: May 11, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode of the Tier1 Podcast features an in-depth conversation between host Brent Tucker, a former Delta Force operator, and Duncan Baillie, who spent 25 years in the UK military with the Parachute Regiment and 22 SAS. The discussion explores Baillie’s unique journey from South Africa to the pinnacle of British Special Forces, SAS selection and training, leadership lessons, selection/career advice, operational experiences during the GWOT, the deeply intertwined relationship between Delta Force and SAS, cultural quirks, and the challenges of transition out of elite service.

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Key Discussion Points

1. Origins & Early Motivation (02:33–08:00)

• Joining the British Military:
  • Baillie joined at age 19, considered "late" by UK standards (06:01).
  • Born in South Africa; left due to concerns over its future and a family connection to the Parachute Regiment (06:12).
  • Clear ambition: "I was absolutely dead set on. I knew where I wanted to go." (07:19)
• The Parachute Regiment:
  • All three battalions share the mission of airborne insertion and logistical disruption (07:54).
  • "In wartime, to drop behind enemy lines and...disrupt logistical communication lines. That's the premise." (07:54)
  • “P Company” test week described as a brutal selection process involving extreme physical/mental tests, including “milling”—60 seconds of full-contact boxing (12:02).

2. Attitude on Selections & Career Planning (13:09–19:52)

• Rise of the UK Ranger Regiment: Baillie critiques the establishment of the UK Ranger Regiment "without a selection", contrasting it with the reputation of Parachute Regiment and Royal Marines (13:09–14:56).
• Deciding to Attempt SAS Selection:
  • Initially planned a slow, methodical career path.
  • Inspired to fast-track SAS selection after a pivotal jungle exercise in Belize and encouragement:
    • "'Let them be the judge of that. Just turn up and don't give up.'" (17:53, Baillie quoting mentor Rob)
  • “You don’t know what happens to you in life at the time you’re making these grand plans.” (18:47, Tucker)

3. SAS Selection Phase — Philosophy, Preparation, and Stories (20:06–41:07)

• Preparation Mindset:
  • "You’re never fully ready. Go sooner than later." (19:16, Tucker summarizing Baillie's advice)
  • “I saw so many talented soldiers assess themselves out of the game...actually, they were doing fine.” (19:16, Baillie)
• Physical & Mental Prep:
  • Advice: Don’t overtrain or peak early; enter at 70–80% and “aim to peak at test week” (25:33–26:24).
  • “Luck plays a role. I’ll take preparation over luck, but I need a little bit of luck.” (26:20, Tucker)
• Hill Phase:
  • Four (now three) weeks: progressive ruck marches, land navigation, Welsh mountains, culminates in tests like “Fan Dance” and “Long Drag” (27:01–29:10).
  • “It’s wake up in the morning, parade on time, get on the trucks, drive out to the training area…” (27:10, Baillie)
  • War of attrition: "The hills phase got rid of the dreamers and the screamers." (39:03, Baillie)
• Selection Culture & Self-Doubt:
  • "Impostor syndrome is a real thing for sure...you look around, there’s some heavy hitters here." (34:00, Baillie)
  • Key to success: Stay the course; don’t “assess yourself out.”
  • Recovering at night: whole pizza and two pints of Guinness at the NAAFI as ritual (35:39).

4. SAS Selection — Subsequent Phases (41:10–61:45)

• Jungle Phase (Brunei):
  • Pre-jungle training, acclimatization, then deep jungle for ~4 weeks conducting small unit tactics, navigation, and infantry fundamentals under arduous conditions (43:13–46:14).
  • “There’s just no gadgetry that’s going to get you around the jungle...the jungle will kill you if you let it. It’s a very pure environment in that it is soldiering in its essence.” (45:17, Baillie)
  • Attrition remains high: dropouts due mostly to mindset and resolve, rather than skills (51:53–53:14).
• Final Exercises:
  • 10-day insertion, close target reconnaissance, and mock attack as final test of jungle phase (51:08–51:16).
• Continuation & Counter-Terrorism Phase:
  • CQB, breaching, weapons: “Now I feel like I can sort of just breathe and now I’m learning new things...” (57:42–59:13)
  • Transitioned to more advanced/capability-based training, with basic CT work in selection and advanced skills in squadron (61:45–63:33).
• SERE (Survival/Evasion/Resistance/Escape):
  • Mandatory full course for all, regardless of prior quals (61:25).

5. Operational Experience — The GWOT Era (64:53–75:00)

• 9/11 and War Kickoff:
  • Was on his first SAS operation when the towers fell.
  • His CO’s prediction: “Fellas, the world as you know it has changed. We’re going to be busy for at least the next decade.” (65:31, Baillie quoting his commander)
  • SAS deployments to Afghanistan within 4–6 weeks of 9/11 (68:36–68:57).
  • Describes the unique mobility, speed, and flexibility of SAS deployments compared to conventional forces (71:09–71:48).
• Transition to Iraq & Double Wars:
  • Moving between Afghanistan and Iraq seamlessly as a way of life for SAS (69:26–70:57).

6. The SAS/Delta Force Relationship & Mutual Influence (75:12–81:39)

• On “Interoperability”:
  • “We were essentially cut from the same cloth.” (75:14, Baillie)
  • Sharing TTPs/lessons-learned, integrating equipment, working side-by-side — “That in itself saved a lot of heartache for us both” (76:01)
• The “Hole in the Wall” Story:
  • SAS and Delta lived next door in Baghdad, literally blasted a hole in the dividing wall for operational integration (76:20–76:50).
• Cultural Influence – ‘Mates’:
  • Delta adopted “mate” into its lexicon; “It’s not a term used in US military at all...but when we get around you guys and you use the same terminology, it doesn’t sound weird.” (78:04–80:44, Tucker)
• Ultimate Trust:
  • “If went south, when you’re in some place all by yourself, you’ve got someone else you can turn to.” (81:39, Baillie)

7. Humor, Camaraderie, and Unique Culture (84:31–87:46)

• Jokes, Nicknames, and Rituals:
  • “BO” nicknames (“Brentbo”, “Dunkbo”) for each other; Rambo green jackets story; constant banter and light-hearted rivalry.
  • Units full of the most serious yet funniest people: “As soon as the plan comes down, as soon as they hit...just steely eyed laser focus...but [after] they’re the funniest people.” (85:02–85:27, Tucker)
  • Book idea: “Delta Fast and the Special Air Circus.” (86:12)
• Perspective on Regrets & Career Luck:
  • "You can’t be on every X...some guys are luckier than others...but it’s just the way the cookie crumbles." (87:41)

8. End of Career & Life After Service (99:11–112:40)

• Leaving the Regiment:
  • Abrupt end for many; “the fall from grace is exponential” (101:50, Baillie)
  • “If you aren’t anticipating it, comes as more of a shock...for some, the mental health crisis begins at that point.” (102:06)
• Transition Strategies:
  • Importance of purpose: “Making money will not make you happy. Find a purpose.” (112:32, Tucker)
  • Involvement with Force Blue, a marine conservation group leveraging veterans’ skills for ocean work (110:29–112:05).
• Adjusting to Civilian Life & Florida Living:
  • “I love living in Florida. If I have sand between my toes and a corona in hand, I'm golden.” (107:30–108:10)
  • Notes opportunities in the US open for veterans not present in UK.

9. British Military Slang & Funny Stories (112:40–121:45)

• Notable Words:
  • Bellend: "Bulbous bit at the end of a penis. If someone is a bellend — dickhead, same thing." (113:09)
  • Gingan Ghoulie: “A bit of a shitstorm, when things go off the rails.” (113:29)
  • Geezer: In US, an old person; in UK, “someone with a little bit of something about them...the blokes, or the geezers.” (115:01)
  • Blade Runner: SAS groupies (114:13)
  • Aluminium: (The proper way. Not ‘aluminum’!) (116:08)
• British Humor:
  • On sarcasm: “If sarcasm wasn’t a thing, I don’t know that we’d even speak at all.” (119:26)
  • Favorite story: Student crashes parachute into ambulance and mate jokes it’s “a terrible counter-fit.” (121:06)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On SAS/Delta Similarity:
  • "At the end of the day, we are cut from the same cloth." (25:33, Tucker)
• On Launching for the SAS:
  • “‘Let them be the judge of that. Just turn up and don’t give up.’” (17:53, quoting Baillie’s mentor)
• On Spontaneous Decision-Making:
  • “You don’t know what happens to you in life at the time you’re making these grand plans.” (18:47, Tucker)
• On Operational Tempo Post-9/11:
  • “The world as you know it has changed. We’re going to be busy for at least the next decade.” (65:31)
• On Leaving the Regiment:
  • “The fall from grace is exponential. If you aren’t anticipating it...comes as more of a shock. For some, the mental health crisis begins at that point because they don’t know what else to do.” (102:06)
• On Humor in the Community:
  • “If sarcasm wasn’t a thing, I don't know that we’d even speak at all.” (119:26)
• On the Jungle Phase:
  • “...There’s no amount of thermal scopes or NVGs or GPS that’s going to make your life easy. The jungle will kill you if you let it.” (45:17)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Introduction of Duncan Baillie: 02:33
• Joining the British Army: 06:01
• Parachute Regiment and P Company: 07:44–12:28
• SAS Selection Decision: 15:30–19:52
• Philosophy on Selection/Preparation: 22:37–26:33
• Hill Phase and Endurance Events: 27:01–29:45
• Impostor Syndrome/Selection Drop-offs: 34:00–39:43
• Jungle Phase Details: 43:13–51:36
• Transition to CT/Continuation: 57:28–63:30
• First Deployments & 9/11: 64:53–68:59
• Baghdad “Hole in the Wall” Story: 76:20–76:50
• Delta adopting “mate”: 78:04–80:44
• Leaving Military/Critical Transition: 99:11–101:49
• Force Blue and Post-Service Purpose: 110:29–112:05
• British Slang/Stories: 112:52–121:15

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Tone & Style

The conversation is a blend of dry British and American humor, deep respect, and brotherly banter—reflective of the elite military special operations community. Both speakers are humble, candid, and quick-witted, freely mixing hard-won advice with self-deprecating humor and irreverent stories.

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Final Thoughts

This episode provides an unparalleled, authentic window into the mindset, training, culture, and post-service realities of SAS and Delta Force operators. For aspiring special operations candidates, military history buffs, and curious civilians alike, Baillie and Tucker’s insights—from jungle misery, hill marches, and close teamwork, to the challenge of losing “purpose” after service—reveal the depth and grit behind the legendary SAS/Delta Force brotherhood.

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For More

• Listen to stories about “pizzas and two pints of Guinness,” air troopers versus mobility troopers, Delta and SAS cross-pollinating kit and slang, and much more, by tuning into the full episode.
• If you’re a veteran in transition: “Find a purpose. You can be rich and miserable.” (112:32, Tucker)

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Transcript

[A]

Foreign. Welcome back to the Tier One podcast. I am your host, Brent Tucker, owner of First Responder cigar, cask and coffee company. Go to FRCC Shop and use promo code TIER1 to get 15% off the world's best coffee, cigars and bourbon.

[B]

Hey, guys.

[A]

And I'm Drew Tucker, underworked and overappreciated

[B]

at First Responder Coffee, Cigar Cast Company. I invite you guys doing to join our Patreon, brought to you by Cobalt Kinetics. And it doesn't cost a lot of money and you get behind the scenes exclusive content. There's a fitness forum, there's a gun

[A]

forum, and there's a Cobalt Kinetics weapons expert ready to answer all your weapons

[B]

question at the Patreon.

[A]

This episode is brought to you by Human Performance TRT. Go to hp-trt.com and use promo code TIER1 to get 20% off all of your testosterone and peptide needs. Go get your blood work done and make 2026 the year you get in the best shape of your life. Let's go, Drew. For the special. Welcome to the Tier one podc.

[B]

This is amazing.

[A]

Dude, check this out. And with us today we have Duncan Bailey. Served 25 years in the UK military, some of that with the 2nd Battalion Parachute Regiment, and the vast majority of his time with the two 2sas. Welcome to the show, Don.

[B]

Thank you very much, mate. Good to be here, man.

[A]

I tell you, I. I'm excited about this one. I have not been shy about the relationship between the SAS and the Delta Force and how much respect we have for each other. Of course we have to like, we. We stole the whole idea from you guys back in the day.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Back in 1976. 75. Guy by the name of Charlie Beckwith.

[B]

Charlie Beckwith, Yeah.

[A]

Literally stole the idea from you guys and said, hey, we're gonna do it just like they do it. It's why we're called squadrons. That's why we're set up the way we're set up. It was literally a copy and paste. I think that started the. The relationship. I don't know if you guys looked down on us at. At that point a little bit. And like, you couldn't change one thing.

[B]

You had to do just pick one thing and change it, make it your own. At least one. One thing.

[A]

Sure you don't want to call yourselves the 22 Delta Force. Just take it off.

[B]

20 seconds, Delta Force.

[A]

But I can't speak how good the relationship back then was, but obviously it's. It's fair to say it was at least. Okay. But I, I do know in the, in the decade I was there, it was, it was more than okay.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And some of the best relationships for that I've had with people in a foreign service and all the different countries and people I worked with, the two TSAs is without a doubt on, on top of that list. So it's a long story just to make sure everyone knows, like, why this really is important to me. And I'm excited to have you here. So welcome to the show.

[B]

Great to be here. I've been looking forward to this. I know we've, we've been trying to set it up for a minute. The stars are finally aligned and here

[A]

we are, we're both retired. You'd think it'd be, you think it'd be easy. My. I don't, I don't know if I'd say if I'm busier than I've ever been, but.

[B]

Yeah, I suck at retiring. If there was a special forces of retirement, I would not have passed that selection. I'm out.

[A]

Correct. It was absolutely ridiculous. Yeah, we, we got on it. Let's get, let's get into it because I, I have a lot of questions. You know, it's, it's funny even when, when you serve with, you know, another unit or even someone else or even a friend, I haven't really found out about their story or their unit as much as I have, obviously, when they were guests in the show. Because when you're just hanging out, you just make fun of each other. You know, you don't, you don't ask insightful questions or you're not looking to hear about their past or anything else. You just.

[B]

My wife always rips me because she's like, oh, so, so is he married or like, do you have any kids? I'm like, I don't know.

[A]

I don't know.

[B]

Did you even meet this person?

[A]

But yeah.

[B]

What did you talk about? Guns and things?

[A]

Yeah, he had funny ears, so I reminded him about that constantly. That's what we talked about.

[B]

Gave him a new nickname and that

[A]

was Nick's name, Satellite. And you know, that's, that's, that's how it works. So right off the bat, how old were you when you, when you joined the military?

[B]

19.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

It's a little bit late in, in sort of traditional standards. You can, you can join the British army at 16 with parental sign off.

[A]

Oh, can you really?

[B]

Yeah. And then you go into a, like a junior basic training sort of thing, and you're held there for A couple of years, I think it is. And then when you, when you turn 18, you can, you can go into the. Because you can't go operational until you're 18. The government won't allow it. Okay, so. But I was, I was born in South Africa, so I, I was, I didn't leave there Till I was 19, but I left specifically to join the British army because I, I sort of foresaw where South Africa was going to go and I didn't love the way it looked. And I thought, well, if I'm, if I'm going to get out, it needs to be now, at least I can start to build a life or do something else. And yeah, so that's what I did. My grandfather had served in the Parachute Regiment, so I was quite dialed into, to them as a, as an organization and what they represented. He was fiercely proud of his service and what he'd done, the unit itself. So I wanted to be part of that. And so when I came across, you used to go into a recruiting office and typically you'd meet the recruiters and they would try and get you in the unit that they, they were from. That's exactly how it works, right?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But I was absolutely dead set on. I knew where I wanted to go. And, and there's. At the time there were three battalions in the parachute regiment. 1st, 2nd and 3rd Battalion. He was 2nd Battalion. And I wanted to go to 2nd Battalion. But of course, in basic training you land up meeting the guys that you meet and you want to go where they go. Right. And for. Fortunately our whole intake went to 2 Para. So really it was a, for him, it was, I think he was more proud that I went there than, indeed I was.

[A]

What, what is, what is the, the mission set of the 2nd Para Regiment, 2nd Battalion?

[B]

So the, I mean, the three battalions at the time really have the same, the same overarching mission. And that really is in wartime to drop behind enemy lines and be able to sustain for prolonged periods in the field and disrupt logistical communication lines. That's the premise of it. I mean, we saw it a lot in the Second World War with the glider and the parachute troops there. Yeah, that legacy pretty much carried on.

[A]

And it's, and it's, it's an assumption, but she'll make sure, you know, we say it for, for the listeners who don't know, it's, it. It would be a static. Static line parachute.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Form of, of airborne desertion. Yeah, the. You guys jump often. How long were you there? About three years.

[B]

Yeah, about, about three years.

[A]

How many jumps you get in three years?

[B]

Off the top of my head, probably

[A]

only one of the hat.

[B]

Yeah. Maybe maybe 30 at a push.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And they, they normally are sort of concentrated into jump weeks or a battalion or brigade level exercise. You'll get, you'll get some jumps in. But did you like jumping? Yeah.

[A]

On static line.

[B]

Yeah. And that's where I started. I started free falling when I was in two Parrot because.

[A]

Oh really?

[B]

That was more my jam. I was like. Well, I like, I like being on the canopy, but that seems like the end of the ride. So, so I started free fall there and, and yeah, and that became a, a thing that I did for a time. So I've got far more free fall jumps than I would static line jumps. But yeah, yeah, it's.

[A]

And this is the, the late 90s, correct?

[B]

That, yeah, 97. I joined.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And then did selection in O1.

[A]

Would you guys be more agnostic in the way you trained or either overtly or they hinted at what you were training for? What I mean by that is we didn't think we were going to Vietnam again. I don't believe that's a safe, a safe bet. But we still had via very much Vietnam like tactics.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Even throughout the 90s. Of course, in the 80s and 90s there are certain parts of, of our military that if they weren't Vietnam focused, they're at least Cold War focused. And that was as advanced as, as our military got, which is, which came to bit US and 2001, you know, not really being ready and really not having understanding of, of the current world we live in.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So I say all that to say in the, in the late 90s. Do you, do you feel like you were training for a particular threat or a possible threat? No, just training.

[B]

No, we weren't, we weren't training for the war. We were training for a war, wherever that might be.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And I mean I never deployed operationally to a war zone, so to speak, in the Parachute Regiment. I went to Northern Ireland on a six month tour. But that's not a particularly kinetic tour. It can be, but it wasn't for us.

[A]

Right.

[B]

So yeah, I didn't, I didn't really start training with a specific theater focus until, until I got to. To. So yeah, so it was a more a general war fighting type thing. Bags of smoke, machine guns, you know, left flanking, right flanking, point of fire, that sort of thing.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So pretty generic infantry tactics, but sort of prefaced with and, and the reason why the, the Parachute Regiment in of itself has, has a bit of a reputation is that we have a selection process. We have a test week. We build up to this test week. It's called P Company. And you, you can't go to jump school until you've passed P Company. And so that's, it's a, I don't know how many tests there are in now, probably 10 or 12. But it's over a week and it's pretty brutal. It's rock marches, it's you know, assault courses and steeple chases and things like that and, and milling which is 60 seconds of all out fighting with your buddy. You put boxing gloves on, you beat the out of each other for 60 seconds and then stop.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And then your buddies again. Wild. Anyway, and so, so that sort of sets us apart from, from generalist in infantry.

[A]

I love that.

[B]

The idea being that when we parachute behind enemy lines we are on our toes. So we have to be that high, have a higher level of fitness so that we can insert for you know, 10, 20, 30, 40, 50 kilometers, whatever it is and then still get and do our work when we get there.

[A]

You know, I love that. And of course you just said that that 10 day process wasn't, was not an easy one. So that's not really what I mean by this. But, but what I am saying is it is impressive to some degree regardless of how difficult a selection process is. Just have one, just have one. Have something that separates you from the next step. And it's amazing how many lazy people are out there that, that, that don't even want to go to an easy slate. They don't do anything more than they have to do. So any selection processes is better than none of the. And it's crazy. And of course the more you refine that just the better and better it gets.

[B]

And this, this will be unpopular I'm sure amongst the, the, the UK military listeners. But right when I was leaving sort of 2021ish around there, the, the UK stood up a Ranger regiment. Okay. And they essentially just amalgamated three units and made them rangers and gave them

[A]

the sort of special forces identifier.

[B]

But without a selection.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And I, I think, and I could be stood, I could be corrected but I think they now have a selection process. But what annoyed me at the time was having worked a lot with the rangers, your Rangers in the past, you know what you're getting when you get rangers, right?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And they will do exactly what, what they are designed to do.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And they do it well.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

And I was a little bit like, you can't really just call these guys Rangers when they're not, they haven't earned that title. When you look, when you look at who we typically partner with on, in any global conflict, I think it was a little bit, I felt a little bit insulting in, in even being kind of part of that thing. Not that I was part of the Rangers, but still. Right. Yeah, it just didn't sit very well with me. And yeah, you know, and you've got them in terms of high end infantry. You've got the Royal Marines and the Parachute Regiment and they always are at constant, it's constant competition with those two and, you know, and it's good. Yeah, that's right. But you get a bunch of parachute regimen and Royal Marines in the same room and they all just take the piss out of each other and drink and call each other names and say, ours is further. We get hard, but, you know, all the rest of it, but it's healthy competition. And I just don't, I just don't know that that band of merry men is quite in the same, can be held to the same esteem as the Marines and our edge.

[A]

Yeah, the, and speaking of selections, it didn't take you long. You said you signed up when you were 19. Correct. You're in the parachute regiment for about three years, give or say.

[B]

Yeah, give or take.

[A]

So you're about 22 years old.

[B]

Yeah, I started selection when I was 23.

[A]

Okay. I turned 24 in the jungle still at 23. Which, which I love. But let's, but let's, let's take a step back for a second. At 20, at the age of 23, you look at, you look in the mirror and you say, I'm ready for the sas. Let's go.

[B]

This is what they need, right? This is what they need. Well, actually, truth be told, I had a plan. And the plan was not that it was never, it was obviously it was eventually going to be right. So we have junior command courses, it's called juniors, and that, that takes you from sort of lance corporal to corporal and then there's a senior command course which takes you from corporal to sergeant and then you, then you become the platoon sergeant. And that's, I mean that's like a decade's worth of work probably. So I was going to do those two things and then I was going to go to the Brigade Reconnaissance Element called the Pathfinders and they're all HALO trained and they have a selection and you know, they're like the, they are like the SF within the, the Airborne brigade and they, I mean they do some, some decent stuff. And from there I was going to spend a couple of years in there and then in about my early 30s, I was going to probably look to, to go to Hereford. But all that came to an abrupt end when we had a news company commander come in to B Company, Two Parrot. And he was a former A Squadron officer, so he'd been with the regiment for a few years and he came across and he just brought just a different level of professionalism. Yeah, not that we were unprofessional, we weren't, we were pretty spun up as a company and but he, yeah, he just bought this different edge. And so we did a jungle exercise in Belize and one of the guest instructors we had was a, was an SAS guy who just finished his time as a, as an instructor on our jungle phase of selection and he was a guest instructor. So he sort of ran our jungle exercise, not dissimilarly to way selection was. So I had the opportunity to sit down with him one evening and you know, in the jungle and just talk about what it's like to be in the regiment and all the things. And I was only supposed to really sit with him for, you know, 10, 15 minutes. I was there for probably a couple of hours when all was said and done. And by the time I walked away from that conversation, every decision or every decision I thought I was going to make up to that point changed. And I realized at that point that that's exactly where I needed to be. And so I then spoke to, to our roc, his name was Rob. And I said to him, look, so I'll be honest with you, I don't know that I am, I don't know that I'm ready. I don't know that I know enough. I don't know that I'm, you know, I have the skills. And he said, let them be the judge of that.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

Just turn up, right? Just turn up and don't give up.

[A]

Right?

[B]

And see, see where it gets you.

[A]

I, I love that, I love that you had a plan of this, this, this well choreographed big plan and, but as always, which you'll, you'll find out later and you will, and you know very well now is complex, long plans just don't necessarily work. You know, they don't. And, and if I had to guess, who knows, if, if you carried out that plan, if you would have put in your packet, if, if you would have gone, I met so many guys and Special Forces who had. Who never thought they were prepared enough so they wanted to do this first and that first and that first and that first. And they forgot the most important part of that plan, which was turning in your packet and going, just show up

[B]

and don't leave until they tell you. Right.

[A]

But you also don't know what happens to you in life at the time you're making these. These grand plans. You don't know when you're going to get married. You don't know when you're going to have kids. You don't know if you're going to have two healthy knees. Even when you're. Even when you're 30.

[B]

No, that's just.

[A]

You don't know. And I love that. I love that his answer was let. You don't think you're ready. Truth is, you're. You're never fully ready. No go sooner than later. And that would be the advice I would give to anyone else as well.

[B]

And stay the. Stay the course would be the other thing I say. And I'm sure we'll get on to this in a bit, but I saw so many talented soldiers assess themselves out of the game.

[A]

Absolutely.

[B]

Today I've had a shocker. There's no way I'm passing. I'll just leave today and save myself the pain. And actually, they were doing fine. Everyone has a bad day. Just don't have.

[A]

Don't have.

[B]

Same bad day twice.

[A]

Yeah, exactly.

[B]

It's not.

[A]

And. And of course, now hindsight's 20 20. If you'd have waited another 10 years to go do the job, all the things you'd have missed out on. Oh, dude. Like it's. It's 2001. Yeah.

[B]

And.

[A]

And you decide.

[B]

And I would. And 2011 would have been when I decided to go. Right. My timeline was accurate.

[A]

Very different.

[B]

All the things.

[A]

Right.

[B]

All my favorite bits I'd have missed.

[A]

Yeah, absolutely. So the. So fortune does favor the bold.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And you made a bold decision and said, you know What? I'm. I'm 23. And. And I'm gonna send it and let them tell me if I'm good enough or not. I love that. Did you have any idea what you were getting into? When, when, when you went. Do you have anyone that could talk to you about selection or.

[B]

No. I mean, there was. And the funny thing is, you know, the parachute regiment is quite a good feeder for the regiment. You know, lots of guys go and get in, but equally some come back. But the guys who go and get in, you typically never see Again, they just become fucking ghosts. They're gone. It's not because they're ghosts. They're just busy, you know, they don't have time. Oddly enough, the very first, after I did selection, the very first operation I went on, my battalion was deployed on the same exercise operation. So I actually got to see them again in an operational environment. I was like, what's up, fellas? First thing they said, you need a haircut. It's like, I don't have to anymore. But yeah, it was great to see him, but, but you're right. And we, we sort of lose that connection. So to answer your question, no, I didn't really have many, many people to, to refer back to. And the Internet wasn't really a thing like it is now, right. So I couldn't do this endless research and plot routes and maps and all the rest of it. You go on now and you type anything about essay selection and routes and that, you're just inundated with PDF files. You can find out pretty much anything. So I, I knew what I'd read in books, you know, and there's some artistic license in that.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And there were a few people I, I know who had attempt, who had attempted it. So they had some points of reference, but detail. No, not really.

[A]

So had. Without really knowing what to prepare for. How'd you prepare?

[B]

So the first, the first four weeks, as it was at that time of selection is, is the hills face, as you all know. So increasing distance, increasing weight. Land navigation, predominantly day, some night stuff. Okay. Over the Welsh mountains in all weather. So that was pretty much what I had to prepare for. The big risk for most folks is they tend to overtrain.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

So they land up blowing a knee out or twisting an ankle or they, they peak too soon. Right. And a guy I knew said to me, dude, go and have a good Christmas. Eat too much, drink too much, but be fit enough to pass a cheeky 8 miler. That's the first assessment. That's a, that's a British army standard test. 2 hours, 35 pounds plus water weapon. Right, go. But sometimes it's flat, depending on what course you're doing, sometimes it's not. Course election wasn't flat. Right. In the Welsh mountains, for God's sake.

[A]

Right.

[B]

But the two hours is a cutoff. So just because it's special Forces, it doesn't mean the cut off. I mean, yes, the instructors go a hell of a lot faster than, you know, a four mile an hour.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And they finish well ahead of, of the cutoff. Time. So as long as you can kind of see them, you're in. Yeah. And that's what I plan to do. So I had a, had a relaxing Christmas and did a few easy runs and really aimed to peak a test week, which is the start of week four, and that it kind of worked out the way I had hoped it would. I didn't and I didn't, I didn't blow out at any point. I mean, I come, I come close to a couple of the cutoffs, but.

[A]

Right.

[B]

You know, it is. But if you're in, you're in.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

So, yeah, it, I, I enjoyed the hills. I was a little concerned that my navigation wasn't quite up to speed because I didn't get as a, I wasn't a commander in the parachute regiment. I was a section 2 IC.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

So I, I didn't really have much time on the map, as it were. So I spent a lot of my off time just trying to spin up my, my map reading skills. But then, you know those Pathfinder guys I was talking about, we had a few of them on selection and dude, they turn up to a checkpoint, they go whenever gone. And I was still trying to unfold my map and find my compass and you know, it just, they just had it down because they'd done a similar type selection in the past. Right. The Pathfinder selection is not dissimilar in, in parts, but particularly their hills. Phase to our hills. Yeah. So it was a bit of a rinse and repeat for them, but yeah, certainly drinking from the fire hose to some degree.

[A]

Here at the Tier 1 podcast, we're excited to have Tasty Gains as a sponsor. A company with values that aligns with ours. I take their products every day, three times a day. And if it wasn't a product that I didn't take personally and believe in and a company with integrity, then they wouldn't be sponsors on this show. Creatine helps the body produce more ATP, which is an energy molecule that your entire body runs on. It helps improve your physical and mental performance in all aspects of life. Let's be honest, creatine powder sucks to take every day. With the creatine gummies, you can take them with you anywhere and they taste great. Every batch is third party tested, so you know you're getting exactly what you pay for. Go to tastygains.com and enter the promo code tier one. That's T I E R the number one and get 20 off your order. I love your mentality on it because it's Just, it's just fun talking to you guys because if you take the funny accent aside, it's. It's like. It's like, it's like talking to, you know, to one of us, you know, the mindset is always, you know, so similar. And your mindset of it was. Is exactly what I talk to people about. About. Hey, don't. Don't go in there redlining. Don't go in there at your peak.

[B]

You.

[A]

You go in there 70%.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

80%. Yeah. You. And then use that for that, you know, for that final push. Or else that's where. That's where you get hurt. And it's. And it's like, it's like hearing you give me my advice, you know, hearing you talk. And I love it that at the end of the day, like, we are cut from the same cloth. But it is impressive that you have that mindset. I went in at 28, 29, and after having, you know, experience in special operations as a Green Beret, I didn't have that mindset going into Special Forces selection, which I was about that age. I didn't have the experience, and I wasn't old enough or smart enough, but you were, and I love that. And that's. Don't go humble.

[B]

It might have been dumb luck if I want. Too. Too stupid not to quit. Maybe.

[A]

Yeah. And we talked about that a little bit too. Luck. Luck plays a preparation. Without a doubt. I. I'll take preparation over luck, but I need a little bit of luck.

[B]

Got a little bit luck. Yeah. Especially with some of the terrain you cover. It's, you know, you just need a little bit to. To shine on you that day so you don't end up breaking a FEMA like we were talking about earlier,

[A]

if. If it fits in. Remind me about that story, because I do want to talk about that a little bit. Did he do that during the hill phase?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay. And so we'll. At the very end of the hill phase, we'll talk about that. So talk about hill phase. Like what? You said it's four weeks long, but what all does it.

[B]

Yeah, it used to be. I think it's three weeks now.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Because there's some more stuff in the back end that they've added on and they can achieve the same standard within three.

[A]

Right.

[B]

So, yeah, I mean, it's not overly complicated. It's. It's wake up in the morning, parade on time, get on the trucks, drive out to the training area. You get out, you get given a checkpoint and you go to that first checkpoint, when you get there, you give it the next one. So you don't know how long you're out for, you don't know how far you're going, you know what route you're taking until you get to the checkpoint and then you, you plan it, walk it next one and go right. And it, it's, it starts off, I mean, it's typically one march a day, normally about anything from 20 to 30 kilometers somewhere around there, but lots of elevation and the rule of thumb is you've got to cover 4km an hour regardless of whether it's up, down or flat.

[A]

Right.

[B]

So it averages out over the. Right over time. That's how they work, the cutoff times and obviously they account for, for poor weather or, you know, things like, of that nature. But there is a cutoff when you either make it or you don't. Not within the first three weeks. There is a, there is a bit at the end of the week one called the fan dance, and it's, it's about 26Ks and the cut off is 410, I think.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

But it's up and over a mountain, turn around, come back up and over the mountain. It's miserable.

[A]

And you don't know that you have to come. Do you have, you don't know until you get to the other side that you have to go back the same mountain.

[B]

So that's, that's, there's, there's two really iconic marches on, on selection. The Fan dance is one, all right. And endurance is the other one. They call it the long drag or the long walk or endurance.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And that's about 60Ks, 60 pounds of weight plus food, plus water. And then you go and you just, you literally, you know, cover this whole training area from one side to the other, and you'll, you'll start off in the daylight and finish in the dark. So some of those, some of those features you're crossing at night, it's pretty hairy.

[A]

Sounds, sounds eerily familiar.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I wonder where we got it from.

[B]

Yeah. Full of knowledge. So, yeah. So there's not really much pressure on you as a, as a student other than to just turn up and walk right. Throughout the first three weeks. But so you start off in groups and then it goes into pairs and eventually you're on your own naving around the place and then when you hit test week, you're on your own. Okay. And it, you either get a, you either either go or you get a red card. If you get a red card, you only get One, and then if you fail another march on test week, you're out of there.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And also, you can't fail endurance because that's a. Either. It's either go, no go. Right. Yeah.

[A]

Do you remember what the weather was like during your selection?

[B]

Yes, I do, I do. And we. And we laugh. So in. In. So Brecon is in Wales and. And Hereford sits on the border of Wales. It's about an hour and 20 minutes away. Beautiful mountains, which you never, ever notice when you're on selection. You only. I walked in the mountains a lot after selection and you notice the beauty. You don't. When you're on selection, you're in a world of hurt and. But you can truly have four scenes, four seasons in a single day in that place. You can get sunburned, frostbitten, and hell damaged all at the same time. Pretty much. So it's. The weather started out like a typical. It was. I did my selection in January, so it's winter.

[A]

Right.

[B]

So it was cold and rainy and just. But on about day three of test week, there was some. Just torrential downpours. And at that point we had the. Our sort of reserve unit. Their selection was running at the same time, and we sort of came together on that same day. We land. Losing about 60 students that day. Yeah. Just through withdrawal and. And DNF. Yeah. And. But then the very next day, we had a guy go down with heat exhaustion because the weather cleared and you had beautiful sunshine. Still a, you know, a bit chilly, but just beaming sunshine. So it's a real weird place. And some people, you know, you'll sit down, you do the calculations. Well, if I do. If I do selection in January, if I start in January, then I get a winter hills, which is okay. But then I do the seer phase in the summer. It was called combat and survival when I did it. It's called cnl, but yeah, so. Or you can game and you will. If I do a summer one, then I get a winter seer, so. Which is the. The lesser of two evils.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And if I'm honest, I didn't really care. I just wanted to get on selection, get it done. And for my money, I thought, well, I can. I can navigate and walk when it's cold, and I'd probably rather do it when it's cold than when it's boiling hot because I can carry less water, I guess. And that was my. My rationale, that. And it was the next one that was available, so that's the one I did.

[A]

You Know, I've had people talk to me about our selections. Hey, what's, what's the better one to go to, you know, spring or fall? And to be honest with you, you know, the, the. I don't say this because I, I, in my older age, I try to be nice and, but my, my inner voice is, isn't as nice. And I think to myself, if you're worried about going in spring or fall and, and you think that's the difference when you make it or not, you're already like trying to game this. You, you're already. Don't go. Don't go. I didn't care if it was spring or fall. I didn't care what phases I had in winter. Go, go. Be prepared. Other. Other men are going to go and other men are going to pass. So I, I've never liked that kind of gaming men, you know, of the weather mentality as, as if, if I didn't make it, I was going to blame it on the weather.

[B]

I'll blame on sunshine, blame on the boogie.

[A]

I mean just that, that would just kind of never really, I never really under understood it.

[B]

Yeah, I mean I get some people, some people perform poorly in hot weather. I, I get that. But yeah, you're right. I think, I think if you're of the mindset that that's the deciding factor, you're probably not going to be there at the end anyway. Right?

[A]

Yeah, exactly. And I'm from Florida. I, I hate being cold. I do. I hate being cold. And the irony is almost every selection or hard thing I've ever done in the military just happened to be in a, in a cold face. So it did matter. Anyway.

[B]

Hate this.

[A]

Do you remember a point? I don't know, maybe you got there or not, but do you? I'm going to assume when you first got to the hill phase and selection that you're surrounded by men that you're kind of a little bit, I won't say in awe of, but. Or maybe you felt a little out of place.

[B]

You mean the other students or the

[A]

other, the other students.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. There was some senior. There's some senior dudes, you know, moving around the lines.

[A]

And I was like, that's right.

[B]

Right.

[A]

What have I gotten into?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And then there's a point where, where those senior guys that you were looking up to weren't, weren't there anymore. And it's, and it's still you. And there's this some sort of point, you're like, I actually might do this.

[B]

Exactly. That funny Enough. There was a, that same day that we had that foul weather, there was a guy that I was in basic training with and he and I were always vying for the top spot with fittest recruit and all the rest of it. And we, so we land up going to exactly the same platoon in the same company, doing all the same command course, our junior command course together. And you know, we're always racing to the finish and, and such. And we did the same selection and he came off that day and I was like, if he's come off, who's to say I'm not off tomorrow? Right? I mean he had his reasons for coming off and, and that's that. But yeah, you're right, there's imposter system. Imposter syndrome is a real thing for sure. And particularly on day one, you turn up and you look around, there was like 180 odd people that turned up on day one. I looked around the room, I said, you know, there's some, some heavy hitters here, right? Senior sergeants and color sergeants and staff

[A]

sergeants and they're like UK's best turned up for this event.

[B]

And you think, well, if, if they're here, I, maybe I'm in the wrong, maybe I turn up to the wrong place. I need to be in another location. Yeah. And, and as the days go on that the, the cookhouse where we all would assemble, the defect.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Just gets less and less busy.

[A]

Right.

[B]

You're like, wow, okay. Yeah, I'm still here.

[A]

So of course there's always that paranoia that you know, that you're, that you haven't made it yet. There's a lot to do. But that confidence does like start to grow a little bit. Like maybe this is possible.

[B]

Yeah. A buddy of mine, he got in as well, but he had this thing every night and I didn't do it for the first night, but I did every night after that. He said, every night I'm gonna go to the px. It's called a NAFI in the.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

In the uk, but the PX to the, to the shop and I'm gonna have a whole pizza and two pints of Guinness. Then I'm going to bed by nine every night. So we'd eat, we'd eat chow at five, six, whatever it was, do whatever map corrections we have to do, go and weigh our kit ready for the next day, make sure we dry boots, blah, blah, blah. And then we would go to the, to the NAFI and have a whole pizza and two pints of Guinness. Every single night. And I swear to God, that's what got me through. God. And he actually, he said it, he, he said that he'd read it in, I think it was the book Bravo Two Zero.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

I think he'd read it there about, about Andy McNabb's selection. He was like, I'm doing that. If he got in, I'm doing it.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

Like, okay, if that's an omen and we're going to do it, we're doing it. So we did. Yeah, so that was our thing. And it, I don't know. Did it help? I don't know. Extra calories?

[A]

Probably at, at the end of, of that four weeks, what's, what's next? You, you pass? That is, Is that, is that the. Make sure I get this, this question right. When you talk about selection, let's back up. What are the, all the, the different phases, you know, of selection? And, and the reason why I want to narrow this down is let's, let's take SEAL Team 6 for, for example, like when they, they're still talking about their, their OTC or what we call OTC like as their selection. But we, we parse out our selection in West Virginia and once you're selected, then we don't call anything else selection after that.

[B]

Continuation.

[A]

Although. Yeah, although OTC is very much still a selection process. We don't call it selection anymore. So is that similar to you guys? At what point is it still a selection process?

[B]

Until badging day, which is the last day where you're handed your, your, your beret and your belt.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

You are on selection.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And you're known as such, though, in, in, in the reality. And what I sort of later learned is by the time you pop out the back end of the jungle, we pretty much pick the people we want.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And then it becomes, and not, not, not that continuation training isn't pass fail, because it still is. You can still come off at any time. But you, you know the people you're looking for and you think they've got the aptitude to do what they need to do to get to the end.

[A]

Would it be fair to say, and we'll get into the jungle phase here in a little bit, but post jungle phase up into there, you have to prove, you have to prove yourself and then almost, almost be fair to say post jungle phase, it's yours to lose.

[B]

Yes, that's fair.

[A]

Yeah. They know, they know looking for they, they know the group of guys you want.

[B]

Yeah. And you know what the the phases beyond the jungle, they're throwing a lot of information at you quickly. Yeah. So it's how fast you take on what it is that they're showing you. Assimilate that information and put it into practice at an acceptable standard. Because the next thing you do after selection is go to a squadron and you could, like some of us have, is deploy almost instantly.

[A]

Correct.

[B]

So there's no sort of lag period once you get here. Take a year just to figure shit out and then we'll go. It's not that way.

[A]

Is the biggest attritter where you lost the most guys? The. The hill phase. Yeah. Or that's, that's. That's. Yes, a big one.

[B]

So we in. So the Parachute Regiment is. Is a very prestigious regiment within the British Army. Right. So we have a maroon beret, like.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Most airborne folks do. So if you don't have a maroon beret, you are known to the Parachute Regiment as a crap hat, which is about as insulting as you can be to another soldier. Or hats for short.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Or you call them screaming crap hats or screamers for short.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

So we always used to say that the the hills phase got rid of the dreamers and the screamers. And it's true to it. And I don't mean any. Any disrespect to the remainder.

[A]

This is.

[B]

I mean, I kind of do, but. But anyway, old habits die hard. But it is true. But if you've turned up and you're not prepared, you will be exposed. If your navigation is not good enough, if your physical fitness isn't good enough, you. If your resolve is not good enough, if your ability to administrate yourself and be ready for the next day isn't good enough, you will be exposed. And that's it. You know, it's a. It is very much a war of attrition, as you say, and we lose the vast majority of people on the hills, some through injury, and they will get invited back.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Some because they don't make the cutoffs and they are invited back. Some people just like, yeah, it's not for me. And they invariably don't come back.

[A]

Is. Is there a. A limit to how many times you can go back to selection? Two is. Okay.

[B]

Two typically.

[A]

Typically.

[B]

And there are exceptions. Yeah. And normally I think that's a sort of a right to the regiment and say, hey, listen, I. I was young, I made a mistake or I took myself off or whatever. But, like, now that I'm older and wise, I'd like another crack. And, yeah, More often than not it, it gets passed through.

[A]

So the next phase after this is after hill phase is what?

[B]

Jungle.

[A]

Jungle phase. Before we get into jungle phase, I want to make sure to do this Tasty Gains wanted to make sure that you had, you had some creatine and some, and some mental creatine needs and some and some mental focus. I'm not real good about, about taking creatine until, until Tasty Gaines got in my life.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because I'm just not going to take a, a powder bottle with me everywhere and mix it up. But those things goes in my computer bag, goes in my travel bag. It's, it's so easy. And so I actually, it's the only way I keep creatine in my life.

[B]

I saw Joe Rogan talking about, I was like, right, I need these. I'm like you. I can't carry lotions and potions around.

[A]

It's yes. Yeah.

[B]

Little bag of sweets. Yeah.

[A]

And they taste great. In fact, don't tell the other guests. I'll give you another couple of bags before you leave. Make sure you're set up.

[B]

I'll get a whole bug on the way home. The 20 an hour drive.

[A]

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. The relationship between us doesn't end just because we're both out. I still got you.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So we go to the, and, and to finish that up. Just, just so everyone knows that also has a Tier 1 promo code where you can get a discount. So go to tastygains.com use tier 1 and get it at a, at a reduced cost to win win situations. Absolutely. So we go into jungle phase.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Tell me about that. And where, where is it at Brunei. Okay.

[B]

So think Malaysia way.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

So well before we do that there's, there's a two week phase. So you, you move from Wales to Hereford.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And it's the first time that you're actually on the camp with all, where all the squadrons are. Yeah. And that's a bit of an eye opener.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Because you. I remember driving in and maybe it's my memory that's done it to me, but I remember walking in under a veil of mist. Like it was just like I arrived at Valhalla or something. It was wild and it, I don't know. And Hereford in the winter because it's close to the mountains when the mist sits, it hangs, it hangs low. So like building top low.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It's just an eerie, an eerie spot and, and everyone's busy. No one's got time, time to stop. Oh, you're the Guys from selections and I, I hope you good luck for the jungle. None of that like who the are these idiots? Don't sit over there in the cookhouse. You have your own spot. Don't sit where we sit.

[A]

Right. I love it.

[B]

And yeah, so, so you get there and then it's sort of two weeks of pre jungle training because a lot of the guys have never been to the jungle before. So they need to get spun up with the contact drills and all the rest of it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Even basic things like how to pack a rock and how to set up a hammock and a poncho and because you know, quite frankly that sort of skill set, particularly these days with the living out of fobs and things, that that whole skill set is somewhat faded. So there's a lot of, there was a lot of that. Um, but the officers have their officers week and that's where they get assessed on their brains.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And it's a pretty brutal week for them. The, the, the non officer types, we have a far easier week than they do.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

They get put through the wringer and then everything lifts. We have two weeks of sort of local training and then we spin off to the jungle. Then there's about a week, a week or so acclimatizing to the environment and, and we have some contact drills on ranges and twos and fours and sixes and man downs and rocks and all the rest of builds before we then deploy it into the jungle. And then you, when you, when you get to the. In actually you get flown into the, into the jungle by heli. A patrol at a time and you meet your instructor and then you're actually inserted into the jungle. And that's you then four weeks for you.

[A]

This is roughly February, March time frame. March, yeah, March.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

The is, is, is winter over at this point where they're at or is it.

[B]

Well, very much. It's tropical jungle. It's humid as hell.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

Yeah. So you, you either. Depending on. And again, depending on which you do summer or winter, you either get a rainy jungle, a rainy season jungle or a dry season jungle.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Doesn't really make a difference. It's just a jungle. You're gonna get wet. Either way you look at it. It's either gonna be rain or sweat. It's up to you. Yeah.

[A]

But at some point you got it is. It is crazy to think about a month ago I was, I was thinking I was gonna frostbite on my toes. Yeah. And, and now I think I'm gonna get Dehydrated at the end of my nose dive. A heat stroke. Right. With leeches on me.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It's just the, the short amount of time, the vast distance that you guys do. Your, your selection is, is impressive. Like it, it is, it's, it's, it's very cool to, to hear that.

[B]

It's cool. And you know, when you look at. And the reason I've been asked this question a bunch of times, but the reason the jungle is, is still used to this day is because there's just no, there's no gadgetry that's going to get you around the jungle. There's no amount of thermal scopes or NVGs or GPS that's going to make your life easy. It just isn't. It's, it's very basic soldiering done well. Right. For four weeks straight. Because if you don't, if you don't maintain your weapon every day, it'll rust and then it won't function. If you don't clean your feet and you know, maintain those every day, then you'll get foot rot and then you're out. You know, if you don't go down to the river every day to bathe, then you're going to get crotch rot or whatever, whatever the ailment's going to be. The jungle will kill you if you let it. Yeah. So it, it's a very pure environment in that it is soldiering in its essence. And that's. I loved it. It's my favorite place to work. But there's just no, there's no gimmicks to it. It just is what it is.

[A]

Yeah, it's, it's I, it's eye opening. So when we do some of our small unit tactics and swampy wooded environments, the doing the basics is, but like I said, doing the basics well. And here's the difference between that. You can, you can be in a, a wide open field and you can start the beginning of, of this training. This react to contact, to maneuver. You know, lay down a base of fire and then maneuvering another element and sweeping through. And when you do that in the field or a sparsely, a sparsely wooded environment, it's pretty easy. Yeah, do, do that in the heavy woods, do that at night, do that in the swamp area where you don't want to get in the prone necessarily anymore. And you come to find out you have no idea where anybody's at or it feels like it like the first couple times to do that. You have no idea where anybody's at. You're pretty sure you either going to shoot yourselves or the element moving up to flank. If you're the maneuvering element to flank. I've, at the very beginning of my career, I remember maneuvering to flank and then going, where are they? I don't. I don't know where I'm flanking. It's just so. It's so chaotic, it's so confusing, but it's the same exact movements that we did here, that we're doing there. But I think it really has to do. It's a great situational awareness exercise. It really shows who's. Who's thinking, who can really process this and who can't.

[B]

And we used to see that a lot, that. That sort of tunnel vision. People get the looking down the. The iron sights because you can't use optics, but you're looking down your iron sights and that's all they see. Dude, you need to see this because there's people there. There's people there. Yes, you're flanking, but where's the point of fire? Where's the enemy, for God's sake? You know, if you've maneuvered into a position to, you know, hit that flanking assault on them, you still need to know where everybody else is. Because the chances of a blue on blue is a thing.

[A]

It really is. And here's the oxymoron of it. I call it operating. Doing the basics at a high level.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Is really what. It's still the basics, but not a lot of people get a chance to do the basics at a high level. And that's. That ends up. Because, you know, our backgrounds are so similar. That doesn't change almost the rest of our career. We don't. We don't do anything really special tactically. We just do the basics better than everybody else, generally speaking.

[B]

And we have the time and the assets to train.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Which. Which in. In. I can't speak to the U.S. army, but I know for certain in the U.K. army, like, even ammunition now is a thing. Oh, well, you'll get the 45 rounds you need to pass your annual qualification.

[A]

Right?

[B]

Well, yeah, but what about some training so that I'm proficient before I hit the qualification? No, no, we'll just walk you through the, like.

[A]

Right.

[B]

That's ridiculous.

[A]

What is it in the jungle phase, that.

[B]

How long is it so all in? It's about six weeks, a couple of weeks before we go under the canopy and then six, four weeks. Yeah.

[A]

It's a long time to be on our canopy.

[B]

It is. It is.

[A]

Dude. Does it and It's a weird question. Does it feel like it? And what I mean by that is, is are you so busy all the time, like it, it. You don't really feel the time? I'm sure at some point you do. Or is it, you know, I feel like I've been in here for three months.

[B]

Yeah. I'm trying to think. So obviously I did it as a student, as an instructor, as an, and as an instructor. So I'm trying to think what it felt like as a student. And I don't, I don't recall being as cognizant of the time as, as I was certainly as an instructor.

[A]

But.

[B]

Yeah, because you're just so immersed in what it is that you're doing, you don't really have time to sit and, and ponder. Although, although you, you know, you do have time. Obviously you can't move at night, so as soon as it gets dark, you're in your hammock and you're, you're sleeping, but you do, you do spend time thinking, but you're so tired you just sleep and then you wake up before it's like stand to, you know, get your ready to go and away we go again.

[A]

Is, is it, is it, is that what it is? It's a bunch of small unit tactics and ambushes and raids.

[B]

Absolutely. Yeah. Lots of patrolling, navigation, case retrieval, ambush, that sort of thing.

[A]

At what size element? Do the elements vary?

[B]

Yeah, anything from a four to a six man team.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And then occasionally you'll come together as, as troops or half squadrons.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And do stuff, I mean, and you know, we typically had, certainly in my time as an instructor, we had, I don't know, maybe the most we ever had was about 40 dudes at any one time. I know there have been some bigger ones where there was, you know, mid-60s, but typically anywhere between 30 and 45 is about what you're taking to the jungle.

[A]

Is there a particular final exercise that you guys do? But what is that?

[B]

It's an insertion, close target reconnaissance and then an attack. Okay. And that, that spans about 10 days.

[A]

And then after that if let's, let's say rough numbers, you, you show up there with, with 40. He said you this, you don't finish with 40, but yeah, we're not finished over 40. But it's not the same as, as the hills. No, you're definitely losing people.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

What, 10, 20%?

[B]

No, probably a little higher, mate. Yeah, maybe 30, 40, I guess.

[A]

What is it, what is it? What is it that they, that if someone's not passing jungle phase. If you had to put it one or two things. What, what is it that they're. They're not doing right or not capable of or.

[B]

I don't you know what it is. They're not, they're not capable of having the resolve to get to the end is what they're not capable of. I, I'm, I'm sure most people I've seen go through the jungle would have been capable of passing had they just stuck it out. Yeah, but they don't. They overanalyze and they overthink and they, you know, they assess themselves out of the game and some people will, you know, I've, I had had a student come up to me, so you, you get on the helicopter from, from the, the main camp in Brunei and then you insert to the jungle base camp and you do it a patrol at a time. So normally you'll go in and then your students will go in, and sometimes you're in first and sometimes, you know, whatever. But I had a student because the morning of. So we've been there for two weeks already. He's down the hills, been in, in Bruno for two weeks, right. He comes up to me and he says, staff, I've had an epiphany. I was like, I have you now? He said, yeah, I have. I've decided the jungle is not for me. And I was like, well, that's interesting, given we haven't even gone to the jungle yet. There's a jungle over there. Whistle stood here. So how have you had this epiphany when we haven't even landed in the jungle? And he was like, this just isn't going to be for me. And you know what? I, I don't, I don't, I don't on people for that, because you don't know what's going on in their life. They could have, you know, a wife at home or a kid that's ill and whatever, and life gets in the way and sometimes the timing for them just isn't right and they make the decision to leave and it is what it is.

[A]

Yeah, I, I appreciate that too. For, for those reasons and, and an extra one. I've, I've had people, maybe they just are better men than me, which wouldn't, wouldn't be too hard to fathom. You, you can find better than the meal all, all throughout the Delta Force.

[B]

Right?

[A]

Yeah. Some guys, you know, that said, like, I've never thought about quitting. And to them, if anyone even thinks about quitting, like you are A quitter. And it's only a matter of time before you quit. I can't go as far to say that I've never not, I've never not thought about quitting. Of course I've, I've thought about quitting. It's. But it, you know, it never controlled me. Never really for the most part. It wasn't something I really entertained. Of course, sitting there on a cold day, I go back to Florida, go, I'm not gonna be on a beach right now in Florida. What am I, what am I doing here?

[B]

Yeah, the this moment.

[A]

Absolutely. But if, but if, if there. But if, if quitting has taken over the mentality, you know, so much. Let's go ahead and get it done now because it's, it's, it's only going to get worse from here.

[B]

No, and the funny thing is I, I, and I often thought about this more as instructor than as a student, but I thought these, these guys would never, ever, ever think of withdrawing from like a battalion level exercise, a training exercise.

[A]

Right.

[B]

They just wouldn't because the humiliation would be never ending because the guys would never let them get away with it. But also the battalion doesn't give you a get out. They don't give you, if you want to leave, it's cool, we'll put you on a helicopter, you go back to your nice comfortable bed and you know, no harm, no foul. Whereas they have that out and they know it. So I think that also plays on their mind because, you know, when you have this, this moment, I think, you know what, I don't need to be doing this. But the sad thing is for a lot of those guys, you know, and I, look, I take my selection for example, because the very next thing that happened was 9 11. So I bet you so many of the dudes who were like, yeah, this isn't for me, kick themselves when 911 happened. Like, son of a. I wonder what the dudes I did selection with are doing now. You know, so it, absolutely, it really, those moments are. You talk about forks in the road in your life.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

For some of those people, the decision they made took them down a path and it could have taken them somewhere completely different.

[A]

Yeah, I agree. It's, and it's, it's easier to understand this, you know, when, when you're older, looking back and you still realize it to some degree in the moment. You still, you don't know how vast.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

This decision can be. It's why it's so important that if there's something you want to do like, you know, for me, go be a Green Beret. That's why I decided to go. At least try. Because I didn't want to live a life of regrets. I didn't want to be older and be like, I could have done that or, or worse. I should have done that.

[B]

I was gonna.

[A]

But yeah.

[B]

Them dudes if you met.

[A]

Yeah, I was, I was gonna be

[B]

in the parachute regime, but then I developed a system. I tested like, whatever. Still do it?

[A]

Yeah. And you have no idea what's next. No one before 911 would, could have even fathomed what, what was coming up in just a short amount of time and what, what elite units were going to be asked to do. Yeah.

[B]

So.

[A]

So since you don't know. Do it all. Do everything you can and do it at a high level. It's because life is crazy. Life is, is crazy. You leave the jungle phase and what's, what's the next phase of training? If you've ever been to any of my tactical training classes, then you know how adamant I am about the use of white light and the importance of a quality high powered tactical light. That's why I use cloud defensive tac lights. You can't hit what you can't see and neither can the bad guys. Clearly identify your target and simultaneously overwhelm his vision with hundreds and even thousands of lumens. Get serious about defending yourself and your family. Go to clouddefensive.com and use promo code tier one to get 30% off your order. That's right, 30%. You won't find a better light than this and you won't find a better deal than this.

[B]

I think the counter terrorist phase. Okay. So I think Iranian embassy, Nomec suits, respirators running around buildings, just, you know, a sort of an intro to tqb.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Is probably the best way to phrase it. Pistol work, MP5s as it was at the time. And that's changed a lot now. But, but that's how it was then. And that was, I think, three or four weeks and it, it was pass or fail when, when I did it for sure. But it, I didn't, I never felt like there was the same level of pressure as, as was in the jungle. And, and I know that that's very much changed now because it's the, the, the guys that run that element of training don't take any prisoners. Like, you've got to be mustard by the time you leave there, otherwise you're out. And I, and that's. That was probably the Same for us. I just. I just didn't feel it. It almost felt like, okay, the two big chunks, the two. The two parts I was most worried about are done. Yeah. And now I feel like I can sort of just breathe and now I'm learning new things, so I'm just, you know, hoovering up all this information that's given to me and trying to make some sense of it and. And make it work so that I can demonstrate, I can do the things, and then we move on to the next thing. And that. And that. That takes a. I want to say, three or four weeks.

[A]

Yeah. Well, at least now you're. You're doing what I guess you would perceive to be is SAS things.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, Very much so. Everything else you did is, yeah, I have to do this to get to what I. To what I wanted.

[B]

It felt a little infantry. This didn't. This felt right. This felt sexy for one of a.

[A]

You're here. You're here to do the job.

[B]

Yeah. We got all the new things and different guns and, you know, it was. It was cool. Very, very cool.

[A]

You feel like you're starting to finally look behind the curtain.

[B]

Yeah, a little. A little bit. A little bit. You know, and every day you're one step closer to that eventual goal of. Of. We call it being badged.

[A]

Right.

[B]

When you're badged into the unit. Yeah. And it's cool. And because. Because you land up with a different set of instructors that you only have them for whatever time frame you're with them, and it's.

[A]

It.

[B]

They're not your selection instructors. Your selection instructors are still there in the background setting up for other things and the next phase, whatever that is. And then. But, yeah, these are, you know, squadron dudes. Not that the instructors aren't. They are, but they're there specifically. But, yeah, it just seemed a lot. The learning environment seemed more relaxed. Still a lot to cover and a lot to do. Right. Yeah, just a perception of pressure seemed a little less.

[A]

Have you gotten into explosive breaching yet at this point, or is it more just entering and gun handling skills?

[B]

Yeah, this is just, you know, shotgunning locks, and that's about it. And.

[A]

But it seems like that's the, The. The. The starting point. Yeah, to work up that. I mean, that's, That's, That's. That's the road we're on now in selection is continuing to work up and work up to more advanced things.

[B]

Indeed. Yeah.

[A]

So that. That very beginning phase was three to four weeks.

[B]

Yeah, I think it was about four Weeks, something on that.

[A]

What's the next phase after that?

[B]

So then we start getting into. I can't remember the exact order, but it was, it was either what is now seer.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Or it was the jumps course. I can't remember which. But if you were from the prep. If you were from the Parachute regiment or the Marines and you had your jump wings, then you didn't have to go and do the full jumps course.

[A]

Right.

[B]

You only went to the, the screamers. They had to go and do. They had to go to Bryce Norton, which is the RAF home of parachute. They had to go and do the square. The. The rounds course.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

And then we would all come back together for the squares course. So we did two weeks of French. Hated it. Really hated it. Yeah.

[A]

If. Was there. Was there anyone that could have also skipped SEAR because they'd already been to SEAR or was this particular se. Everyone has to go.

[B]

Even if you'd done some sort of sear, you're in, you're doing the full Ish. So that's like five days on the run. And then you get lifted at the end and you go into the bag. And that is what it is.

[A]

The. Are you guys doing your advanced CQB still within the selection process, or do you guys get that at squadron?

[B]

Yeah, so that, that becomes more now a squadron thing. So we get, we get the basics of doing what we need to do. Quite frankly, there's just not enough time in within that six month. And we, we, I know we looked for a time in making selection a year.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So that the actual selection phase finished after six months. But then there was another six months of. So all your infiltration skills, all your patrol skills, all your advanced CQB breaching, all the rest of that stuff would be covered in that second six month block.

[A]

Right.

[B]

But it just, it never got traction and never lifted off. So it's still something that now when you get to the squadron as a new guy, you're jumping through your ass trying to get all this stuff spun up. Right. Not, you know, not considering, of course, the squadron is doing what it's doing. So if it's going, you're going with them.

[A]

Right.

[B]

You might have your skill set, you might be part way through it, or you might get left off the, off the manifest because you've got to go and do this other thing. Yeah. So that, that's a real thing too.

[A]

The. We call it the, the Halo course or the Free Fall course. Where do you guys do that at?

[B]

So it's Oddly enough, it. If you. Unless you go to an air troop, you don't do the free fall course. Okay. And I know. I think that's changing, but there was a. There was a push when I was still in the squadron to do to make everybody, hey, ho. Cold. Right. Because that. That was a thing that we were starting to use more often than not. Right. But, yeah, again, this boils back down to the, you know, the conversation we were having about diving. There's so many things you've got to keep current at. Sometimes there's just too many things and you have to forego one. So the decision was made way before I turned up that free fall would only be the preserve of air troop.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Everyone else was jumpers, but not free for qualified.

[A]

Right. And. And I get that because it means you still have that capability, but not everyone has to maintain that skill because they. Like you're about to get into. With your career. There's so many things you have to be good at. We can't be. We can't be the best at everything. Yeah, it's a lot. It's absolutely. It's a lot. And it's, I think, one of the biggest. One, the biggest misconceptions for the adults force when people talk to me about it at times, like, well, yeah, of course you should be really good at CQB and shooting. I mean, that's. That's all you guys do. And, you know, I just kind of laugh a little bit on the outside and be like, you think that's the

[B]

sum total of what we do?

[A]

You think that's all we do? And then there's another part it was like, that goes back to that. That inner voice that isn't as nice as. As my other voice hears in my mid-40s, where I'm like, what makes you think you know what the Delta Force does? Like, how could you even say that with. With such. With such an assertiveness that, you know what we do? You have no idea what we do.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You have no idea what the Delt does, but you're gonna sit here and tell me, you know what the only thing we do is CQB and shooting.

[B]

That's. That's the bit we do right at the end when we've done all the other shit we have to do to get there. That's the bit.

[A]

Yeah, absolutely. Where were you when 911 happened?

[B]

I was on my first operation with the regiment. I was actually running up and down an airfield. It was one of the days we had some downtime. Running up an airfield, and a buddy of mine came out waving his arms. I was like, oh, fuck, I better get back in. Something's happened. Like, I thought we'd got a shout and we were going somewhere.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I went back and he was like, dude, you've got to come see this. So we went into the common room where the TVs are right as the second plane hit the towers. And then I was like, dude, what the is this? He was like, right, this is live in New York. I was like, what's. Is that an accident? He was like, no, we think that they've been attacked.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And so about. We watch everything unfold, and I forget what the timestamp was, maybe an hour, but our boss came and he was like, right, fellas, the. The world as you know, it has changed. We're going to be busy for at least the next decade. I'm like, okay. And we lifted and shifted, and the rest is history. As I say, man, that's.

[A]

That's crazy that he had the. The insight to even say the next decade.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because, you know, as I start, that's what brought me into the military. And I was in a. I was in a hurry to. To get to combat because I thought it was going to be over. A lot of us did. Yeah. He had the foresight to go, we're gonna be busy for the next decade.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And. And even that, if you'd have told me then, I'd have thought that would have been almost an exaggeration of a timeline. And he was still off.

[B]

Yeah, still about a decade.

[A]

He was still off by a decade. You know, that's crazy. And, yeah, he'd have been the closest person I've ever heard of guessing how long we were going to be busy for.

[B]

Yeah. And he. You know what? He was a. He was a really, really, really good commander. He later went on to be the CEO of the unit. And, you know, we thought he was going to become the director, which is, you know, the brigadier that runs the whole.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Shebang. And he. He bowed out, and it was a real shame, you know, he was a. He's one of the few. One of the few commanders I would have followed on a wing and a prayer. He was like, hey, we're going to do this. I'm like, that sounds dangerous. I'm in. But there's. And. And honestly, I've. I've met other officers. I wouldn't have followed and followed them into the bathroom to knock them out. But him, I was like, yeah, whatever. You're saying that's what we're doing. He was just a fucking great, great officer and he actually lives here in the US now, works for a big mining company. Really fantastic. Either. Yeah, good dude.

[A]

The here's another I think misconception is. And don't get me wrong, it's not, it's not a complete misconception. When you're at a tier one or national level unit, something happens. You, you, yourself or, or everyone's going. And that's not necessarily the truth.

[B]

There's.

[A]

There's more than just. There's more than just me and my team. How long did it take you to get to Afghanistan? And what's now. Now goes in a little bit of this luck, you could be in the first wave, you be in the second wave, you'd be in the third wave.

[B]

So you're right sometimes it's right place, right time, right. And it just so happened that the, the two squadrons that got selected to go, I was in one of them and they wanted all of us to go, so we did. But the very first operation I went on, half the squadron went and I wasn't in the halfway.

[A]

It's like. So you got picked to go forward? Yeah, but.

[B]

So I just sat back, I can't remember what I was doing. I was doing something else, but I was like, well, this is shit. And they'd say, well, don't be too far from your, your pages because we had mobile phones. But not like now, right? No, don't be too far from your pages. That's how they, you know, send you all the nines. And then you would call in and hey, what's going on? We can't tell you, but you need to come into work.

[A]

You're like, okay, yeah.

[B]

So that call came about a week after the. Half the squadron went and then we went to. And then it was whilst we were deployed, 911 happened and we all, we came back, picked up a different, different shade of uniform and yeah, so we were, we were boots on the ground, mate. I reckon within, I want to say, I want to say four to six weeks tops.

[A]

That's impressive.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, it was a quick turn.

[A]

That's, yeah, that's, that's moving out.

[B]

Yeah,

[A]

the. When, when Iraq kicked off, which would have been 0033. And I'm sure you'd have been, you know, in and out in Afghanistan doing what you guys did. What. What did you think? I mean, this has got to be a wild time, you know, to, to be again in at this unit. There's already one full scale war going on. You're like, you know what, let's do another one. Same time.

[B]

Let's double, let's just double fist a war. Let's just do it. I was actually, I was actually in Afghanistan on a, like a small task. The remainder of the squadron were back in the uk, I think, and they, they then handed over from the squadron who was in Baghdad at the time they took over and my task finished up and I thought, well, I'll go back to the UK and then maybe get some leave and then I'll join the squadron. Oh, no, no, no. They were just, hey, just send whatever you don't need back to the UK and you get on that bird and need to send back Dad. I was like, oh, perfect, right. So that's what I did. But I mean, again that. It was wild west back then. Yeah.

[A]

And, and you can't go back and, and tell anyone who quit or can't even tell, you know, past you, you know, how important it was to keep going. But this is now your life. No one else in the military outside. Well, at least we'll say, you know, the UK military in general are, are ever going to be asked to do that or ever going to see something like that, like. No, just you're special. Take your bags, leave from here, go right to there. I mean, just the, the things you're now allowed to do that, the options you have are just unlike anything anyone is, is going to experience. And at some point it just becomes your life.

[B]

Yeah, you're right. It's funny because in the parachute regimen, when you move from one place to another, you move as a full company or a battalion unit and you'll be, you know, 600 of you at the airport. You get on a C17 or C130 and you all go.

[A]

It doesn't happen fast.

[B]

No. But then, you know, roll on a few years later when you, you know, like I did, they were like, okay, send those bags on that plane, you get on that helicopter, you're going to meet another plane there on your own and then you're just going to land up the place. Okay.

[A]

It's, it's. You don't realize it then. I don't think, I don't know what it is. You realize it. For me, I think it's more towards the end of my career. Right. I really started looking back and being more appreciative on, on the things I was doing and then definitely when I got out, but, you know, I just hear those Things. And I don't think you realize it at the time. Maybe you did, hopefully you did, but your life was a movie at that time. Like, you realize that you're right in

[B]

the, in the first few years, like everything was new. Right. You're doing all the things for the first time. And eventually by the sort of second or third rotation, you. You kind of get into the swing of things and it becomes somewhat of the norm.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But then as you say, as you get a little bit older and you look back and you see the new guys coming through, how excited they are, and you're like, oh, fuck, not this again. And they're like, this is amazing. Like, this is shit. You know, and it just. How the cynicism creeps in over time. You're like, actually, you know what? This isn't shit. This is awesome. We actually still get to do this shit. And, and, and I think you forget that at some point you're not going to do that shit anymore.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And that's probably the worst part of that career is when it all ends. Because it ends pretty abruptly. Which only did for me.

[A]

Right. It did for me too. I at one point thought I had years and years left in me and my body, my brain at some point was like, I don't think you have that much longer left in you.

[B]

Your body's writing checks. Your knees don't catch. What are you talking about?

[A]

Exactly. You know, you said something that's. That's actually very interesting. And I, I don't think I realized it as much until you just said that. It is so funny. New, excited, new guys coming in is sometimes what it took to remind me, like, how special this place is because. And you just see how excited they are to be here. And they're like, you're like, you know what? That's right. Like that. That was me. Like, this is. This is a dream.

[B]

This is fortunate. Yeah. Right.

[A]

This is fortunate.

[B]

Spoiled.

[A]

And there's. And there's two things grateful. There's two things I can do. I can either go over there and crush his dreams and tell him how tired I am. Yeah. And try to bring reality to him. Or I could. I could, you know, or his excitement could be contagious and I can remember how awesome this place really is.

[B]

Which is probably the better of the two options.

[A]

It's the better two options. And unfortunately a little bit of both, I think happens in reality.

[B]

I'm so excited for you. But this fucking sucks. Just so you know, you're gonna hate

[A]

this in five years. He Reminds me, he reminds me a little bit that this place is better. And then I remind him a little bit. You don't, you don't know anything.

[B]

Youthful optimism. This too will pass.

[A]

The you got, you end up going to Iraq. We was fortunate on the Iraq side is like during the invasion or shortly. Shortly. Shortly after.

[B]

So just, I think just after. So just after. Everything still fresh secured. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

And at some point you, you guys got to work with us

[B]

pretty much straight out the gate.

[A]

Were you working with us in Afghanistan as well?

[B]

Not a little. No, not initially.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

I think we had different aos.

[A]

Right.

[B]

But yeah, certainly, you know, Iraq, all through the campaign that we spent there. I mean we were there for, I was in and out of there for probably the better part of eight years, I guess. Yeah. But every time, every time I did, we were always right next door to you, you know, either in the first spot or the second, the second spot that we landed up picking up.

[A]

So Iraq would have been the first time that you got to work with the U. S. Military tier one units. Does that, that be.

[B]

Yeah, I think so. I think that's fair to say. Yeah.

[A]

What, when that, when that first started happening, let's say like, hey, we're going to work with these guys, we're gonna be, you know, living next to them. I'm sure you were either told that you found out real quick when you got there what, what the environment was. Did you have any preconceived notions about the Americans and the delta force or.

[B]

No, not, not bad ones, no.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

No, just was conscious that, that we were essentially cut from the same cloth.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I knew guys who'd worked with you guys for a long, long time and said they're basically like you said, they're basically us with funny accents and so, and so that became the thing and you know, the, the, so we would hang out together once we made the hole in the wall, we'd hang out together and you know, shoot the cut up if we were working. Sometimes we work side by side. Sometimes you do your thing, we do our thing. So there was a lot of cross pollination and one of the things I really liked is that particularly the lessons identified piece is that we, we willingly shared that backwards and forwards so that neither of us made the mistake that the other had made or when we're aware of a new TTP like, you know what the fucking something is.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So that, that was really cool. And I think that that in of itself saved a lot of heartache for us both in the long term, you

[A]

kind of glossed over it real quick. But, but the hole in the wall. So apparently, as I understand it, we live next to each other. Yeah. The two units, identical.

[B]

And you can't call them houses. They're like a, like a 20 bedroom, okay. Mansion type house. Former politician types. All right. You had one, we had the one next door. But there was a war between the two.

[A]

Right.

[B]

So we just got. I don't know who, I don't know whose Dems dudes did ours or yours.

[A]

Right.

[B]

We blew a hole through the adjoining wall so that we could walk to you and you could come to us so that we essentially didn't have to leave the compound to go out to come around and knock on the front door. We just went through the wall.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And so that was, that's just how it became. And the cool thing is we used to trade things like, you know, got this bit of kit and that kit and you know, we're switching things around.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But then when we turned up, dude, we didn't have half the kit we needed. Yeah, we were, we were rocking M4ish with acogs and some body armor and terrible helmets. No cry kit. Like none of that was a thing. And then this same officer I was telling you about, by that time he was a colonel and he turned around, he was like, you know what, we're missing a trick here. If, if we're gonna run side by side with these guys, we need to get up to speed. So go and get the NVGs we need, go and get the helmets we need. Go and get the play carriers we need. Go and get the, the level of protection we need. Go get the vehicles we need. When we first rolled out, dude, we had 110 Land Rovers. I shit you not, 110 Land Rovers with ballistic shield plasticuffed to the side of them. That was our armored platform. What the is going on. But not, not, wasn't too many rotations after that. Then we started having, you know like your pandas and whatnot. And, and then very, very quickly the two units started to look on the battlefield much the same in terms of equipment and capability. Yeah, but the dudes, you know, it's a different, slightly different uniform, but it's the same creature.

[A]

Yeah, I love to hear that. Here's something that started from 1977 that, that goes on right now and will, will never stop. It's so ingrained in me. I have, I have forgotten that it sounds weird and what I'm talking about is this, when you, when you show up to otc, like in the regular United States military, you're always like, this is your battle buddy. This is, this is your fellow soldier. This is your, your swim buddy. It's all sorts of monikers and names for the guy next to you. There's only one name that, that you call someone that works with you at the unit, and that's your mate. This. Go check on your mate. Hey, make sure your mate is there. When, when your mates put the door, you know the door charge up, they're going to come back here. And our instructors are always talking about these mates, mates, mates. That's not a term used in, in the United States military at, at all. And then you just kind of pick up that lingo and then that just becomes normal. Everyone said, hey, this is my mate. And that you forget when you talk to other units because it, and we're so secluded. Like, you kind of live in your, your own world at some point. You know, you can see someone's face go, that's. That's weird. Why'd you call him a mate? And then we get around you guys and you guys use the same terminology. It doesn't sound weird because we use the same terminology. Yeah, but that's. I know that sounds like a real small thing, but to pick up another, another country's terminology for what you call your, your teammate.

[B]

I mean, you know, it's huge.

[A]

It's a huge tip of the hat.

[B]

I was about to say that. I think that's quite a. It's quite a nice tip of the hat. I think it's a, it's a, it's a cool thing, right?

[A]

I mean, I don't, I don't expect you guys to do it back, but if you guys want to call each other dudes or something like that, that'd be, that'd be cool. I mean, we did it for you guys, but you guys don't do it for us. It's no big deal. I mean, you guys deserved it.

[B]

You're missing a lot.

[A]

You were the first.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So I just say if I don't do it. But, yeah, we there. So, yeah, it's more than just our, how we set up. It even goes into our, our terminology with things like, like mate. So if I think a little bit longer, I'm sure there's some other terminology that, that, that we took. That we took from you guys. But again. But I say that whole thing because, again, it started from 1977, and you have no idea what, what the Future is. And now you Fast forward to 2004, 2005, and into my time and even at the end of my time till right now. Those two units are absolutely intertwined. Absolutely.

[B]

I think that. I think there always will be.

[A]

And I think there always will be. I think it always will be. I told a story once on a podcast that some people in the comment section got very upset about it, and I don't care. I do. I do not care. They don't. They don't understand the relationship. I said, here, let me put it to you this way. If I was in Syria and like a fellow Green Beret came and knocked on my door, I came from the Green Berets and knocked on my door and just wanted to hang out at my compound, I'd be like, get out of here. Go walk 40 miles and then you can come hang out in this compound. Beat it, nerd. Yeah, but if. But if another. But if he left, another guy with a funny British accent comes up, all

[B]

right, all right, mate.

[A]

Knocks on my door and. And says, hey, yeah, from the tutu. Got. You know, we got told to come over here and hang out with you guys. I'd be like, get in here. You know, let's. Let's go. Do you want to move in?

[B]

And that's a funny thing, dude. No matter where you go in the world, if you land up in these random places, the first thing I always used to look for, I was like, is any Delta cat. Yeah, there's such and such. Oh, mega. And then you'd find someone and. And. And, you know, take. Take the mate thing out of it. What you also realized is that if went south, when you're in this place all by yourself, absolutely you've got someone else that you can turn to and say, hey, listen, here's my number. If you need me, call me. Equally, here's my number. Call me if you need me.

[A]

That's a huge.

[B]

And that's a, you know, that's a safety blanket that. That's nice to have because, you know, the level of training that they're at, you know, what they're capable of, right? You're like, well, if we have to run and gun, we're doing it together.

[A]

And, you know, their authorities, anyone can sit there and tell you and say, hey, you know, give me a call if you need me. I'll be there. That's just not true. The chance of you putting your job on the line or, you know, getting to go out and. And get into a gunfight with. Without approvals is slim to none. But if I call you guys, the approvals are already there. I, I know that. Well, really, whether they're or not, I know you guys will be there.

[B]

Our comms always go down when that happens. I try to call and couldn't.

[A]

So, so when I made that comment on that podcast, there's some people in the comment section or just, just couldn't fathom that I would turn away another American. But they don't, they don't understand and

[B]

you know, I would suggest the same is true. You know, if I was telling you that story earlier about, you know, one of your, one of your teams was, was down where we were, which is out of their normal ao and they were waiting on a, on a trigger to go. We're like, dudes, come hang out. Yeah. And we hung out for, I don't know, probably two weeks by the time the trigger actually went. But we had a blast. Just hung out and talked. So I had. This is a legit story, right? Do you remember Rambo? First blood for sure.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Who doesn't? So he had that trademark green jacket, right?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So your, your guy's team comes down and there's probably six of us down there and probably maybe eight or 10 of you. And we'd got some, some local fixers to get us these Rambo esque jackets and the guy turned up like, where the did you get those jackets from? They're awesome. Was like, we'll get you some. So we did, so we, we went, we went. We had our guys go out the next day, picked up a bunch of these jackets and we gave your guys these jackets. Right? But then we took the first, the first part of their name and put Bo on the end. So you would have been Brent. Bo. I was Dunk Bow. And so we just hung out with these fucking ridiculous jackets on with a bow on the end of it. And dude, that was us for two weeks walking around these jackets. Who the fuck are these idiots?

[A]

I, I don't, I'm not, I'm not going to sit here and tell you everyone I worked with was a comedian. That's not, that's not the case. But I will tell you this. The. It's an unusual amount of very funny people work, work at, at these units, which is a little bit ironic because they're also the most serious people on target you will ever meet. As soon as the plan comes down, as soon as they hit that, you know, get on the helicopter. As soon as the helicopter lands, they may not say a word. Just Steely eyed laser focus.

[B]

Like when you put the armor on like a muzzle on a dog. It's work time. It's not going to work.

[A]

And, and of course, some of them can't even, can barely wait until, you know, target secure before, before the jokes come out again. Yeah, but they were the. Not only were they the highest performing people I've ever been around, they've just been the funniest people I've ever been around. That's, that's just another, like, nod to it. Putting BO at the end of everyone's names.

[B]

I, I met a dude when, when I was away and he and I were cutting up one night and I said, wouldn't it be cool if we could write a book? And, and the book was just like toilet reading, you know, Right. A couple of pages of these silly stories that we tell over a beer or whatever, but an encyclopedia of these ridiculous stories and the shit that you do and you get away with, you know, on the, on the dark side of the wire. I just think it'd be an interesting. And I said, wouldn't it be cool if we could call it Delta Fast and the Special Air Circus. Dude, that's the best name ever. Obviously we didn't do anything with it, but I still think there's, I think there's a story to be told.

[A]

Absolutely, absolutely.

[B]

And again, not creeping into any ttps or just those sorts of silly things.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

Brent. Bo.

[A]

I love it. You, you spent a. How long did you end up spinning in the SAS?

[B]

20, about 21 years, I think. All said and done.

[A]

You realize how insane that is? You spend as much time in the SES than some people do and the military as a whole.

[B]

Yeah. You know what? I was just, I was just lucky. And it, it, like I said, you know, when, when my, my company commander in two Power said, you need to go now. Don't wait another 10 years. Go now. I mean, his, his words were almost prophetic, but that, that led me to have the career that I, I had. That conversation was what set that touch paper alight. And I'm, I'm thankful that it did because the timing of my arrival in the unit couldn't have been any better, really. If I had done the next selection, I'd have missed the first wave of fun.

[A]

Right.

[B]

So.

[A]

And maybe you don't go to that same squadron and then.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Then everything else, and I wouldn't. Career. Yes.

[B]

Right. Completely different trajectory.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. And there's, I mean, there's lots of, there's lots of Sort of touch points in my career that I look back on. I'm like, I wasn't really happy with how that worked or I. I wish I'd have done that. And did I see dudes go away on these little, you know, these onesies and twosies. They go on these cool little jobs and they come back and they tell you all the. That they didn't. Like, why wasn't that me? But then you think about it, hang on. But I also went to get to do these little things and.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

I'm sure other people, like, why didn't I get to that? But you can't be on everything, right? You know?

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

You just can't.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And some, Some guys are luckier than others. They get on lots of cool. Some dudes don't. But it's just the way the cookie crumbles, I guess. Yeah. But yeah, I was lucky. I. I was lucky to do quite a wide spectrum of things. So I didn't, I didn't leave with any. Any regrets. There were. Of course, there were things I. I would have liked to have done. But like I said, you can't be on every X, you know, Right. You. You get what you get and you got to be thankful that us for that.

[A]

I suppose the. I mean, this is more of a. Of a conversational podcast, so I just, I'm. I'm just excited to tell stories about. About the units, you know, as well. Not just, not just your story, obviously, primarily your story, but to get to tell you things as well. So I was. I was leaving Syria one trip, and I was asked if I would. If I'd go to Hereford and basically brief them up on what's going on right now. Like, so before I went home, I went directly to. To Hereford and. And didn't have any drinks.

[B]

No.

[A]

And we don't drink in the sas, do we?

[B]

Do not have squadron bars.

[A]

Anyway, do not do nothing. Just. Just consummate professionals.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And as I'm going there a guy's name we've already mentioned, mutual friend of ours says, hey, have you ever been to Hereford? And I said, actually, no, this would be my first time going up, going several times after that. But he goes, hey, I'm gonna set up a. A tour for you if, if, if you want. Like, I would love that. I'd absolutely love that. And so some guys, some new guys come in and pick me up from, from the airport and I get my own personal driver, you know, all the way there. And it's not close. It's several hours from. From London.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And we didn't stop at any bars in the way.

[B]

No.

[A]

And that'd be unprofessional. And be unprofessional. And we get there, and what was professional was I get there and they take me around from whatever it is, the air shop, to the mobility shop, to all these different things. And when I get there, he. He walks me up there, there's a representative from. From each shop, and he comes in and he gives me the most professional brief. This is who we are. This is what we do. These are our capabilities. Follow me and I go inside. Everything's laid out. They tell me like, this is what we use this for. That we use that for. This is what you use that for. And after the first one, I'm like, this is. This is crazy. Now I'm starting to get some imposter syndrome. I'm like, this is. This is too much like, why. Why are they doing this for me?

[B]

Second one, third, I think I'm a general.

[A]

You beat me to it. I turned to this guy and I go, hey, do you. Do they think I'm a commander? They think I'm someone, like, more important. Do they know I'm just an operator? And he goes, mate, just an operator. You're an operator. That's why they're doing this for you.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I was like, man, that's. It's just humbling, you know, it's just. It's super cool. That, that, that, that outlook and that, that culture and that answer was one of the. One of the coolest things I think an SAS guy could ever could ever tell me.

[B]

I don't go back to Hereford all that often, but when I do, I always try and get around the various spots on camp to look at, you know, the museums and things like that, because the living, breathing things, they change and evolve.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So this. Yeah, there's lots and lots of history there.

[A]

It's cool. Oh, that is. That's something else I thought was really cool, really unique. And that's very different about us. You know, we. We were formed in 1977. You guys were formed in. In the early forties, mid forties at best. Yeah. Within World War II. Yeah, yeah. By. By sterling. And who's, you know, who has a statue there? And you guys have 80 years of. Of history behind you from, from World War II all the way forward. And that's, that's, that's clear. Like you guys are. You guys been doing this for a long time? I've done A lot of cool stuff.

[B]

Yeah, you're right. I mean, even though you are within the unit, you still look like. One of my favorite. One of my favorite times is when we have squadron reunions and we call them the Old and Bold. Now we're not bold now I realize I am. Right. But we get the. We get the older guys and, you know, we. We were lucky enough to get guys who were in Merbat, who guys were in North Africa to come back and. And sit with them and just chat. And like you say, you know, we're. We're. We're cut from the same cloth. Slightly different accent. They're cut from the same cloth, just considerably older.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

They've done some cool things. If you sit long enough to listen, they'll have a couple of beers and, you know, spin dits about North Africa and Hitler. And you're like, this is wild.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It's like listening to a museum talk. It's incredible. And sadly now, you know, we. We've lost a lot of those dudes are now gone. They're not. They're not around. Yeah. But, yeah, we still get. I'm actually going to a squadron reunion this year, and so I'll get to see a lot of the guys and hopefully some of the older and Boulder come back. We'll come back, sit down, a few beers, and that they normally get out of hand.

[A]

Well, one of. One of the nicknames we give the older guys, which again is as dummy, is the Gray Beards.

[B]

The Gray Beards, yeah.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Well, yeah, we stole that from you, actually.

[A]

Yes, we got. We got one.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, you got one. You take that one. Yeah, we call it the Gray Beard Network. Network. You always. If you tap into the Gray Beard Network, there's always somebody who knows somebody who knows somebody who can get you whatever you need.

[A]

Right. Yeah, that. That. That. That network, that group chat, the. That I've been. Has. Is. Is a very small group of people, but there's not. I. I don't know if there's ever been a time that someone's requested a contact into something, no matter how small or how big. Dude, I think somebody out there.

[B]

I was like, there's no way anybody's gonna know anybody, like, within about four minutes of a guy. I can get you in touch with a guy who knows. Guy enough.

[A]

Have you ever read the book Rogue Warriors?

[B]

I have. So. Or in fact, there's a series of books written by the same.

[A]

Oh, I'm sorry. Rogue Heroes. Rogue Heroes. And it's. And it's. Right up there.

[B]

I didn't read it. I listened to it as an audio book.

[A]

Fair enough.

[B]

I've covered the topic.

[A]

That's right. I love the integrity there. But I would, I would accepted that I was driving.

[B]

Reading and driving is bad.

[A]

One of my favorite books. One of my favorite books.

[B]

Have you watched?

[A]

No. I have.

[B]

So there's a series. I almost say Amazon prime, maybe Netflix.

[A]

Okay. And I know there is a series, but I haven't watched it.

[B]

It's pretty good.

[A]

Is it? Closely follow the book.

[B]

Yes. And when I watch things, like I don't end up shouting at the TV and turning it off, throwing a tantrum, but it, it's, it's, it's watchable. It's funny. Yeah, it, and it's, it's pretty true to.

[A]

I'm telling you, I, I read that book Rogue Heroes and I, I, I'm, I'm comfortable with my career. I know what I've, I know what I've done. I've been to war a bunch of times. Iraq, Afghanistan and Syria and, and other various places. I've done some things, I'm telling you, I've done some things. I read that book and felt like a small man.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Felt like I hadn't seen war. Like, I felt like I was like, you know what? I, I don't really, I don't know if I could even consider myself that had really gone to war to some degree.

[B]

When I read that book, one of the things that struck me, you know how we'd sit and, you know, we'd get a set of orders and they'd be like, right, infills looks like this X fill looks like that. And all the bits in between. Well, when you read that book, all they had was the infill bit and then what. So you haven't covered the X fill bit? No, no. That's on you just walk back to England from Italy. Yeah. Yeah. When you're done, just make your way back. Okay. Thanks, Mental.

[A]

Especially the early on days of, of northern Africa. Yeah. Them hitting airfields and just the most austere of environment, knowing that, you know, airplanes were eventually going to come look for them. And you're in the desert and you got nowhere to hide and just covering insane miles. It just, I can't even fathom it. Of guys getting back to base and being like, hey, is everybody here? Some of them keep coming in. Some of them haven't made it back yet. Like not even knowing what happened to your force and you know, give it a couple days and, and that's just who we got back and everyone else is just presumed dead. Like, it's just, It's. It's absolutely insane. If any. If anyone hasn't read Rogue Heroes. You think we're exaggerating or can't really understand. Read that book. Yeah, it's. It's the history of the SAS and everything Sterling went through to. To get it started, how he got it off the ground, their first missions into Northern Africa, and it goes on to Italy and France, if I remember right.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And just a great book. Gosh, it. It was. That's a good book. Glad you read it.

[B]

I went to years ago with a bunch of us jumped on motorbikes and rode from Hereford to Omaha Beach. That is a exceptional place. It's such an exceptional place. And it, it. Talking about it, reading about it really doesn't do it any justice. And I, I'd never quite. I'd never quite comprehended just how complex of an assault that that was. Until I stood on. On Omaha beach and looked back at the land, I was like, okay, everywhere's overlooked by cliffs, essentially. Yeah. Or rolling hills, at least. And when I thought, and I don't know why, but in my mind's eye, I thought, oh, well, you know, the positions would be, you know, reinforced bunker position, sandbag positions, type, you know, MG42s, blah, blah. No, dude, concrete built into years in advance. Like a whole engineering thing had happened to set that up defensively.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And then. And then when you. You go up to the museum and you walk through and the museum just a little bit up the way, and you. And you walk through and start to. To understand the level of loss so early on. It's a frightening place.

[A]

I want to do a Normandy jump.

[B]

Dude, you should.

[A]

I want to do an jump.

[B]

Yeah. I've missed out on two. One, I was in the uk. I couldn't go. And when I was here and there was just no way I could go, and I would love to, but I just don't know I could afford the broken angle at this point and the

[A]

barbell to bring it back to your story. And there's something just while we're talking and just hanging out for a little bit is when I get back to 21 years in the SAS, when the ride's over, my guess is It's. It's over one or two ways. It's 21 years and now it's all, you know, like, this is. This is who you are. It's all, you know, but it doesn't last forever. Or is it 21 years? I've done this for a long time and I'm. And I'm tired and I'm. And I'm ready to go, or I guess there's always c. Look, a little bit of both.

[B]

Yeah, it definitely was a little bit. A little bit of both. I don't think you can do anything for that long and not become instrumental, institutionalized to some degree. But I, I think the, the path I took in the latter part of my career, I was. I did a lot of kind of CDC type stuff.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

The combat development stuff.

[A]

Right.

[B]

So looked into the procurement of new things. Right. When I did land mobility platforms and vehicles. So I worked a lot with, with the defense world, commercial world, and so I sort of had an understanding of what it looks beyond.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Also, a buddy of mine had got out, so he, he did selection when he'd already been in the army for about 12 years, so he could only do about 10. And then he was done. And I remember when he left. And he left midway through my career with the regiment and he said, you know what the thing that struck me when I left was? There was no fanfare, there was no parade or any. Said. I don't know what I was expecting, but I wasn't expecting what I got. And what he got was a handshake from the policeman that took his pass away at the gate. And then he left. He was like. And I just stood there waiting for a taxi to pick me up. Like, what the. And, and, and I, I remember thinking at the time, I was like, I can see how that happens. It's not because the regiment doesn't give a. About you. It's because they're so busy with everything else that's going on, they haven't got time to care about poor you as you leave. Right. So you just gotta leave and figure it out on your own. And it is. So I somewhat prepared myself for that day coming. But when I left, I landed working with a defense company. So I still, I still worked to the unit to some degree. So my, my, my leaving wasn't an instant severance and there was no more. So I still sort of kept some, some tenuous links back to the unit and, but also I didn't want to be that guy. And I'm, I'm sure you're aware of what I'm seeing. Like the guys that leave but don't actually fucking leave.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

Like every time you go back to the compound, they're there. You're like, dude, I thought you left I did, but now I'm here doing this, like, really. And I didn't want to be that guy. Like, oh, hell, he's here telling all the young guys how it is ruining their dreams.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So I didn't want to be that guy either. So I, I, I sort of kept a. Not a healthy distance. That sounds like I didn't want to be part of the unit. I do, and of course I do. And I, for as long as they'll allow me, I'll keep going back, you know, when I'm invited to. But I'm a civilian now. I'm not. I don't just get to walk into camp anymore. I have to know someone who's going to escort me and do all the things, and I get that and appreciate it. And it's a privilege still to be able to go back. And it's definitely something that you miss, but I don't know that anything can fully prepare you for the day that you step away from it.

[A]

All right.

[B]

Because you, you go from, you know, being someone who's part of a, this organization that does gets to do amazing things across the globe to waiting for a taxi. And it just, the fall from grace is exponential.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And I think if you, if you aren't anticipating it to some degree, it comes as more of a shock. And I think for some, for some guys, as they leave, the mental health crisis begins at that point because they don't know what else to do. Like, fuck, I was a, I was, I pitted yesterday and now playing golf.

[A]

I was important yesterday. Yeah, yeah. And, and that's the truth. You were, you were important yesterday.

[B]

And it's not that you aren't important anymore, but in the structure of the unit that you spend so much time in, strategically, you want.

[A]

And, and regardless of, of the job you do, even when you're a little bit older and say you do a CDD job or, you know, with your work's important and, and it's important to your country. Like, like my country needs me. Like, what I do is important to my country. There's tangible results to my work.

[B]

That.

[A]

A high level. Yeah, that, that's important. And the moment you're waiting for that taxi, you realize to some degree it's not wrong. I'm, I'm not important to my country anymore. And no one's going to say thank you for what you did, because no one knows what you did. They knew what you did. They'd probably thank you for what you did, but no one even knows what you did. And it's just, it's a tough moment. It really is. It's, it's almost hard to explain. I try to explain the best I can but unless you've lived it that like I said that, that, that fall is, is real.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It hits you hard. How did, how did you deal with it? A pizza and two pints of Guinness.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. Pretty much every day since. Wishing I could be back and I'll do in I'm so sorry, I'll come back. Yeah. I, I don't know. I, I, I, I sort of, I kept, I kept links with, with a lot of the guys and, and you know, we'd meet up when we can notwithstanding work and some of them were still in doing their thing. But I, I knew, I knew from about 2015 that I was going to move here. New Smyrna beach was the place for me. So that was always a plan that I knew. I didn't quite know when I was going to leave and I was actually due to leave in I think 2020. And then Covid hit and the British government basically turned around and said we can't make you leave the military because the job market is what it is. You can't get a job.

[A]

Right.

[B]

So we will find something for you to do for the next however long until this whole thing pans out. So I ended up signing an extension for a couple of years and then I just got to the. And I, I'd always said one of two things was going to happen. I was either going to leave when I ran out of time or I would leave when I didn't love it enough to give it everything that I was. And I. Those two timelines somewhat converged and I thought to myself I could stay, but if I stay then I've got another five year commitment. And that five year commitment would take me well into my late 40s and really at my late 40s. Do I want to be starting something again? Probably not. So it's kind of now whenever. So I made the decision to leave and we, within six months we were in New Smyrna beach and, and what, what I realized and part of my reason for, for going to the US is I'd always bounce backwards and forwards to the US particularly as I was in that sort of CDD role. It's just how well received that the military veterans, never mind soft veterans, were received in the defense and commercial world. They saw genuine value, right. And I thought, you know what, the UK is not there yet and I don't know if they'll ever be them. They're not. It's not that they don't care for the veterans or they don't, but the opportunities for veteran employment isn't what it is here.

[A]

Right.

[B]

So I thought, you know what, I'm, I'm just going to give it a punt and see what happens. And you know, as, as you said earlier, fortune favors the brave. I don't know if it was brave or reckless, but it, I'm doing it. So we came over here and, and set up shop and started again and. And so I just do different things now. I do things that I work because I like it and I do things that I enjoy versus things that I don't. And it's a downside to being a consultant, but there's an upside to it as well. I get to pick and choose what I want to do. But opportunity is my point.

[A]

Did you ever stop and think that there's, there's something about you and that a wake of a destruction surrounds you because when you got into the sas, mad cow disease was running rampant and then when you left, Covet had hit.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And so what is it about you coming or going that, that causes this widespread?

[B]

I went to Thailand once and it was a tsunami. So I don't know if you might be, or you might be onto something. I want to be a fucking jinx.

[A]

The. This isn't a leading question, but by any means, what. You've. Obviously you came over here to the States like you know what you're getting into, but then again, it's a little bit different when you're out in Southern Pines or, or you're in this bubble of, of specialized people and then you're, you know, in, in the real world of, of America. What, what do you think about living in, in Florida?

[B]

Dude, I love living in Florida. It's my favorite thing.

[A]

It's because you see sun every day.

[B]

Yeah. Yes. It's because. Because there isn't mist that hangs at house level over 90 of the time. No, I, I know. I, I love Florida. The weather's great. I mean, I grew up in South Africa, so the weather would. I'm used to beachside weather. Right. And when my kids were smaller, my wife used to work for British Airways, so we used to fly a lot.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And when the kids were born, I was like, listen, we're not going to stop traveling. Let's. Let's travel with them. And she was like, I. Yes. 100. So, because we're all. Because we're in England, we typically go Places that are warm and nice.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And if I have sand between my toes and the corona in my hand, I'm golden.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And I was like, well, if we could. And so we went to Cuba on holiday.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And my wife turned 40 and my daughter turned one within that three week time frame. And as I said, I watched the kids, I was like, they just blossom in this weather. Like, why couldn't we do this full time?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And whilst New Smyrna was in the back of my mind, as in that's where you want to live. We hadn't actually kicked it into a plan yet.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

So as my service started to wrap up, that became the focus to live here. So the weather was a driver and opportunity was a driver. And you know, when we got over here, I just said, look, we've got to take every opportunity that's afforded to us. And because as cliched as, as, you know, living the American dream is you, if you're prepared to get stuck in and work your balls off, you can, you can earn a decent living and you can live in, you know, a nice home in a nice neighborhood and do cool things. So I was like, yeah, let's, let's give it a bash. I think I can, I think I can do some things over here. And I, I'm always looking for opportunities and I don't say that in that I'm not happy with what I've got. But you never know when what you've got could go. So I, I've always got, you know, a few irons in the fire, as it were. So I try and keep myself occupied doing things that I enjoy and hopefully people pay me for it.

[A]

That if that is the kicker. Hopefully people. I am, I'm really bad about staying really busy, but some things people don't pay me for. Yeah, but, but, but some of those things I do are absolutely, absolutely worth it. But, but that is, you know, besides joking, jokingly, I think, you know, some veterans, especially, you know, very high and specialized veterans, I don't think they always know their worth like you, you, your skill set is worth something here. And if, and if you maintain that, you will find it.

[B]

Yeah, you will. But then also, you know, notwithstanding that humility is, is a big part of both of our units. So. Right. The guys can be quite self deprecating.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So you quite, will quite often undersell yourself.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

When, when there are people out there that won't undersell themselves at all.

[A]

What is, what else are you a part of? What else are you doing?

[B]

So when you spoke about how did I sort of figure out this whole leaving a team thing, one of the things, a guy I met, funny enough on one of the deployments, a US Guy, former agency cat, he got involved with an organization here in Florida, actually out of South Carolina. But they predominantly operate here, an organization called Force Blue. And in a nutshell, they take soft community folks who have a diving background, whether in military diving or otherwise, and repurpose their skill set in support of marine research and conservation. And they're super active. They have missions all throughout the year. In fact, I was supposed to be on one last week, but in fact. This week. This week, yeah. And it got pushed. But one of the cool things about, about being in Force Blue is that that feeling of not being part of a team and waiting for that taxi. Well, now all of a sudden you, you're, you're back as part of this team that has a focus, a mission set, if you like.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And it's, it's just a cool organization to be a part of. And I look forward to the, to the missions as they come up to jump on them and catch up with the guys and see what they're up to. And it's a whole plethora of different backgrounds, so there's always some good banter going on and some ribbing and all the rest of it. So, yeah, it's a good time. And notwithstanding that, you know, the missions that we get involved with are truly meaningful. So when you talk about, you know, service to, to one country or another, there is, there is genuine, genuine service being given back in the preservation of marine life around Florida and elsewhere in

[A]

the U.S. yeah, I love that I say it all the time. We just talked about, you know, the, the fall, the reality of leaving this, the service and feeling like you're, you're part of something important no longer. I think it's a, a big part of that is. Well, then go find a purpose.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You have to have a purpose in life. And that purpose can't be just making money. Making money will not make, will not make you happy. You can land the biggest job. You can do it. You know it.

[B]

You can be rich and miserable.

[A]

You could be rich and miserable. Most people who are rich are miserable. Fine, find a purpose.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Last thing that there's. That I want to do with you is I'm going to give you a list of words. I want you to tell me what they mean.

[B]

Okay. Blues and twos is uniform. You have dress uniform to dress uniforms. Yeah.

[A]

A bellend

[B]

Bell ends. One of my favorite words.

[A]

It's one of your favorite words.

[B]

So a bellend is the bulbous bit at the end of a penis. And if someone is a bell end, dickhead. Same thing.

[A]

Okay, yeah, this one I, I sometimes I, I definitely got from you guys, but I don't know if it's as widespread as I thought it was, and I may not be saying it right. A gingham ghoulie.

[B]

Again, Ganguly. Yeah, a gingham ghoulie is if, if something turns into a gingan ghoulie, it's a bit of a shitstorm. It's like just whatever. Or, or if people are supposed to be doing something and you walk in, you're like, fucking hell, fellas, this has turned into a ginger. What's going on? Like be doing something, but you're, you're off.

[A]

Right, Right. A badge bunny.

[B]

Badge bunny.

[A]

A badge bunny. Is that one.

[B]

Not sure.

[A]

You were just talking about? What is it that you get when. At the very end of selection when you get badged, you get badged.

[B]

Oh, a badge bunny.

[A]

Oh yeah, I know. I have an accent.

[B]

Yeah. No, okay, I see. No, I see what you go. What do we call them? We didn't used to call them.

[A]

You call them. They're a different term.

[B]

No, we called them blade runners cuz the opera known as blades because of the, the winged dagger. Right? Oh, the nickname was Blade Runner.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So we call the Blade Runners.

[A]

This is one that for the most either they're weird like gingually. I don't know how that, you know, can, can be described. But, but you usually, when you hear the, the description of it, it makes sense like bellend. Actually, when you, when you hear why it's called that, it's, it's funny.

[B]

Anatomically it makes sense. Sense.

[A]

This one is one of those that culturally does not translate well. And it's geezer.

[B]

Geezer.

[A]

Because a geezer and in the States is very different than the geezer. So what's a geezer to, to you guys?

[B]

So some historical context.

[A]

Right, okay.

[B]

In, in sort of London town in the oldie days. Right. All right. If you were a bit of a man about town, okay. New people, you could get things. You're a mover and a shaker, you were known as a geezer.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And I know in the US that means an old agent.

[A]

Right? Right. It's usually not a good thing. It's usually, it's usually started with old you old geezer.

[B]

Yeah. Like, no, geezer is not A bad thing. It normally means someone with a little bit of something about them, but in. In the unit, if you refer to the rest of the guys, right, you either call them the blokes or the geezers. Like, I'll ring one of the guys I work with at sig. He's also a former unit guy, and I'll. I'll say I saw him a couple of weeks ago last week. And I said, oh, when was the last time you saw the geezers? And he knows that's what I mean. Like, when was the last time you sat down, had a cup of coffee or a beer with some of the blokes?

[A]

Right.

[B]

You know, back in Hereford? So geezers is what we refer to one another as. Like you would mates.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

Geezers. Yeah.

[A]

All right, last one. I need you to read this word for me.

[B]

You've misspelled it, first of all. But the word you're looking for is aluminium.

[A]

Just. Just. Yeah, I don't need the extra bit. Just if, you know, if you know what I'm looking for, just. Just give me the answer.

[B]

I can't. I can't bring myself to say it. I just can't.

[A]

Tell me how. Tell me how you pronounce what I was trying to spell.

[B]

Aluminum. Aluminum.

[A]

Aluminium.

[B]

Aluminium. Yeah. Okay, so the English spelling is actually correct because we invented the language in the first instance. So I. I, U, M, minimum, same as titanium.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Or condominium.

[A]

Right. I. I know it is. It is funny. Or would. Would we give our SCS counterparts a hard time? But how. Whatever it is, they pronounce them or say something.

[B]

My favorite. My favorite favorite is Worcestershire sauce because. So Worcester. Worcester is about 30. The. The city of Worcester is about 32 miles north of Hereford, okay. In. In what you guys would call a county of Worcestershire.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And Hereford is in Herefordshire. It's a shire. Right?

[A]

Right. Yeah.

[B]

So. But for some reason, the. Particularly in the south, in south US The Worcestershire is the most complex word to say. But when you go up north, like New Hampshire, where SIG is, people just say Worcestershire and Worcester. Right? Yeah. For some reason, it's impossible. We always call it Worcestershire sauce. What's your sister? Sauce.

[A]

That is one of the hardest words to. To pronounce in the English language the way that. That we pronounce it.

[B]

One of the. One of the funniest, funniest road trips I've ever had, that road trip from London Heathrow to Hereford.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

You know, two and a half. You've done it yourself. But there's a bunch of road signs, obviously, between the two. So I picked up a friend of mine, he's from Louisiana.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

So you know the accent. Right. Picked him up and all the way back I was getting him to read words that places names.

[A]

Right.

[B]

It was hilarious. Just the he was coming out with.

[A]

Right.

[B]

So nothing like it was supposed to be.

[A]

Yeah, I'd imagine at some point, I guess, for. For us to you guys, like someone with a deep accent, like a deep Irish accent. Yeah, you know, that's like. I can understand it, but if they get too deep, it's. We're speaking the same language and I can almost not. Can't understand what you're saying.

[B]

Drunk. That gets out of control.

[A]

Yeah. Or drunk, I'd imagine same thing for you guys. You get. You get someone from like deep Louisiana or a real deep accent. Like we speak the same language, but I don't understand how.

[B]

I don't know.

[A]

You can blame that on the French. Yeah, yeah, I played that on the fridge. Yeah, sorry. My. My last real question for you is, and after 25 years of service in the UK military, I already said that the guys we worked with were funny. But no, no pressure. I'm telling you, the British guys, you guys are just extra funny. Like as a whole. You guys just crack me up. It's just the way you speak to each other, the way you view things all the way to the words you use. You're just funny guys.

[B]

If sarcasm wasn't a thing, I don't know that we'd even speak at all. Right, Right.

[A]

Correct. So tell me a funny story. And it's. I know it's such a broad. It's. It's almost so broad. It's. It's a hard question, but usually, you know, what are the. You know, the first thing that comes to mind is it. But of. And it can be a selection story, it can be an overseas story. Be making fun of the Delta Force that live next door to your story. We'll take them all.

[B]

So many to choose from. I need. I know you pick one that's. I know that's worth telling.

[A]

And we always put people on the spot.

[B]

Yeah, right.

[A]

I know. I know what we're doing. It's never easy.

[B]

So here's one. Here's one. All right. So I said about sarcasm, right?

[A]

Okay.

[B]

So we were on. Remember said on selection, we had the two halves of the jumps course, the rounds, which everybody did, and then the. The squares which if you had done the rounds, you wouldn't did anyway. So we. So I know we're three or four jumps into the squares course. And for some reason, the Royal Air Force, in their infinite wisdom, had landed an ambulance right on the wind line at the end of the X, right? So the pits in the middle, right? That's what. Where everyone's aiming for that. And so one of the guys who actually went to air troop, funnily enough, he is on finals, full drive, and plows straight in to the ambulance, right? So one of the other. One of the other guys walks up to him. Don't ask him if he's all right. He just leans over and he goes. You do realize that's a terrible counterfeit. The guy's all mangled up against the end of. Do you realize it's a steering canopy and left it there?

[A]

I guess the other good news is you don't have to go far. Yeah, but you're just. You're right there. It's. It's the ambulance. So if you are hurt, it's do we right there.

[B]

So I. I was in mobility troop, and so we would always have a lot of banter with our air troop guys. And we always used to, like, ride each other hard about whose troop skill was the hardest. Okay. Boat troop, mountain troop mobility or air. And so we always used to say to air truth, like, yeah, this is a skill. Right? That's a skill. Dude, I used to get so upset. Yeah, because that's a skill. Driving

[A]

absolutely dunk. Man, I can't thank you enough for. For coming the show. Thank you for having me share some stories with us. I really, really enjoy it. I know you got a rock concert to get to get to tonight.

[B]

My boy are gonna go rock out to the Offspring and Foo Fighters.

[A]

I love that. I absolutely love that. I'm telling you, one of these days, you got to come back for a Thursday night live show, love. And we can interact with. With the audience.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Until then, I got a feeling this isn't the. The last time I'm going to see you.

[B]

I hope not.

[A]

Thanks so much, brother.

[B]

Thanks, brother mate.