Delta Force Operator / Green Beret / Force Recon, Xavier Lendof | Tier1 Podcast

Summary

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Tier1 Podcast: Xavier Lendof – Delta Force Operator / Green Beret / Force Recon

Host: Brent Tucker
Guest: Xavier Lendof
Date: March 9, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode of the Tier1 Podcast features an in-depth conversation with Xavier Lendof, a uniquely experienced special operations veteran. With a career that spans Marine Force Recon, Army Green Berets, and Delta Force, Lendof discusses his unconventional entry into elite military units, lessons in leadership, the value of persistence, and his evolution into a world-class sniper instructor. The discussion, rich with camaraderie and humor, explores the realities of service, pivotal moments in career progression, and technical nuances of modern sniping and training.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Unconventional Origins

• Big-City Beginnings:

  • Xavier grew up in New York City and spent part of his youth in the Dominican Republic, returning to the Bronx at age 11 ([05:03]-[06:21]).
  • Early involvement in military-style cadet programs sparked his interest, particularly as an escape from a challenging home life ([06:41]-[08:07]).
  • “At first, it was the structure, because I didn’t want to be at home…I wasn’t a tough kid…so I wanted to do something else.” – Lendof ([09:06])

• The Power of Choice and Luck:

  • Brent and Xavier discuss how choices made at a young age, even when motivated by chance or hardship, can profoundly affect the trajectory of a life ([08:10]-[10:01]).
  • Full Metal Jacket was his main source of inspiration for joining the Marines ([11:45]).

2. Entering the Marines and Finding a Path

• Boot Camp and Infancy of Leadership:

  • Joined the Marines at 17, entering via delayed entry program ([12:13]).
  • Early leadership challenges: He became a squad leader during boot, learning about problem solving under pressure (the ‘saltine cracker’ hack story, [15:00]);
    • “It sounds like a silly story…but what it exemplifies is problem solving, and you will need that later on in your military career.” – Tucker ([15:51])

• Fighting for Infantry:

  • Initially “open contract,” he proactively sought transfer to Infantry Training Battalion by persisting through bureaucratic roadblocks ([18:45]-[21:30]).
  • “So even when there’s luck involved, there’s just people who work hard and are persistent and fight for what they want just happen to be luckier than other people.” – Tucker ([22:35])

• First Influential Leader:

  • Squad leader ‘Mike/Hollywood’ set the bar for professionalism and fitness—“set the tone for how I would try to behave for the rest of my military career.” – Lendof ([22:57]-[24:07])

3. Becoming a Recon Marine

• Indoc Process:

  • Describes the transition to Force Recon, the selection processes, training, and influences from senior Marines ([25:16]-[29:04]).
  • Notably, pre-internet era made it hard to find concrete info—much of it came from rumor or folklore ([26:34]-[27:15]).

• Unique Pipeline:

  • Compared Recon vs. Q Course: Recon was a single, collective program; not MOS-divided like the Q Course ([30:24]-[31:23]).
  • “Everybody that starts and everybody goes through the same program of instruction.” ([30:38])

• Early Lessons in Army Culture:

  • Humor about attending Army jump school as a Marine, including stories of harmless pranks and early lessons in humility and peer pressure ([32:19]-[37:34]).

4. Service in Force Recon & Special Forces

• Iraq, Force Recon Limitations:

  • Discusses the differences in operational authority and tempo between Force Recon (as part of a Marine Expeditionary Unit) and Army SF teams ([40:08]-[41:28]);
  • “In the Army side, it seemed like they had more awareness of what else could be done… more access to those types of operations. To me, it did.” – Lendof ([42:02])

• Transition to Green Berets:

  • After his force recon deployment, decides SF is the next challenge.
  • Smartly leverages the National Guard route to streamline his path to the Q Course ([44:59]-[46:39]).
  • Refers to National Guard SF as “the great secret…perfect for certain scenarios.” – Tucker ([46:21])

5. Green Beret Life & Leadership Insights

• Learning Army Culture:

  • Relied on Ranger Battalion and 82nd Airborne peers to adapt to Army nuances ([47:17]-[47:58]).

• Land Navigation Mastery:

  • Comparing the legendary Q Course navigation (“Star Course”) to experiences in Camp Lejeune—emphasizes humility, mistakes, and solo problem solving ([48:11]-[52:19]).
  • “It’s just, what are you going to do when you are not where you think you are?” – Lendof ([51:28])

• ODA Assignments & Counterdrug:

  • Describes counterdrug work as both invaluable real-world reconnaissance and a unique National Guard experience ([60:05]-[63:07]).

6. Advanced Special Operations & the Long Walk

• Progressing to Dive and Team Sergeant Roles:

  • Details the challenge and leadership lessons gained running a dive team and leading ODA in combat ([64:49]-[68:01]);
  • “I started to notice that I valued more team harmony than individual prowess.…a group that works together is usually better than two individuals that are just rock stars but can’t work together.” – Lendof ([68:01])

• Team Dynamics and SF Personality:

  • The podcast delves into the notorious stubbornness, independence, and strength of will among Special Forces teams ([69:02]-[73:09]).
  • On leadership: “Ultimatums rarely work…especially with a group of guys like that. You’re going to get something way worse.” – Lendof ([73:12])

• Delta Force Selection & Life:

  • Considers whether to rest on his laurels or pursue one more challenge; goes for Delta selection in his mid-30s ([75:38]-[76:01]).
  • Speaks honestly about the “imposter syndrome” and the grueling standard inside the unit ([78:11]-[81:18]):
    • “There are a lot of individuals that make difficult things look easy…that did not help my imposter syndrome at all.” – Lendof ([78:15])
    • “Taking imperfect people to do an imperfect job and ask them to do it perfectly. It’s extremely difficult.” – Lendof ([80:54])

• Why Delta Is Different:

  • Explains the unique stress and perpetual high standards required: “Perform at the highest level on demand…Whenever that is demanded of you.” – Lendof ([83:00]);

7. Transition and Building a New Career

• End of Operational Career:
  • Describes bittersweet departure from The Unit, being well-liked, and the humility in moving onto a new chapter ([92:20]-[95:27]).
• International Sniper Instructor:
  • Details of building a second career in Europe, teaching at ISTC, and collaborating with multinational special operations snipers ([95:47]-[98:02]).
  • “Being good at something does not mean that you can convey that effectively to someone that has no idea what you’re talking about.” – Lendof ([96:33])

8. Sniping: From Fundamentals to Cutting-Edge Ballistics

• The Science & Art of Long-Range Shooting
  • Discussion of the evolution in sniper calibers from 7.62 to 300 Win Mag, 338 Lapua, and the rise of civilian innovation ([99:46]-[103:46]).
    • “What I learned is the more you learn about something, the more I realized how much I did not know.” – Lendof ([99:46])
  • Deep-dive into bullet flight phases (supersonic, transonic, subsonic), truing your rifle, Coriolis effect, and practical vs. theoretical shooting at range ([103:55]-[127:41]).
  • “If you’re missing, Coriolis is the last thing you need to look at.” – Lendof ([121:32])
  • On training new snipers: starts with 7.62 as a teaching platform because it’s more susceptible to wind and environmental variables, then moves students to higher calibers ([112:52]-[113:23]).

9. Notable Quotes/Memorable Moments

• “Even when there’s luck involved, there’s just people who work hard and are persistent and fight for what they want just happen to be luckier than other people.” – Tucker ([22:35])
• “You never know what someone is capable of until they’re challenged, until they’re molded.”—Tucker ([11:11])
• “Leading a group of SF guys is not the easiest thing…herding cats at some point.” – Tucker ([68:44])
• “The unit will take more from you than you will ever get from the unit. It is designed to grind you down.” – Tucker ([81:54])

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Highlighted Stories & Humor

• Jump School Prank: Xavier shouts the instructor command “Jumpers, hit it!” as a Marine at Army jump school, only to get caught and punished, illustrating the seriousness and sibling rivalry inter-service ([32:19]-[33:24]).
• Afro Wig Story: Wearing an afro wig in formation before a big exercise, Xavier is called out before the new Sergeant Major—playful reminder that not all leaders share the same sense of humor ([129:51]-[132:41]).
• Hawaiian Shirt Fridays: Pulls a group prank on a new commander by having the whole instructor cadre wear Hawaiian shirts, discovering the value of shared insubordination ([133:12]-[133:44]).
• Hungover at Dive School: Fails the PT test on first attempt at dive school due to a hangover, an embarrassing but relatable lapse ([65:59]-[66:39]).

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Timestamps for Important Segments

| Segment | Timestamp | Description | |------------------------------|---------------|---------------------------------------------| | Xavier’s Early Years | [05:03] | Growing up in NYC & Dominican Republic | | Cadets & Marine Inspiration | [06:41]-[09:59]| Role of structure and choice in youth | | Boot Camp & Leadership | [12:13]-[16:17]| First squad leader, crackers story | | Infantry Transfer Struggle | [18:45]-[22:29]| Persistence navigating military bureaucracy | | Force Recon Selection | [25:16]-[30:38]| Pipeline and preparation for Recon | | Iraq/Force Recon v SF Roles | [38:58]-[42:16]| Operational differences and ambitions | | Transition to SF, Guard Path | [44:59]-[46:59]| Leveraging the Guard for Q Course | | Land Nav/Star Course | [48:11]-[55:16]| Lessons from land navigation | | Counterdrug ODA Experience | [60:05]-[63:07]| Real-world application of recon | | Team Sergeant Insights | [67:27]-[73:09]| Harmony, leadership, team dynamics | | Delta Force Selection | [75:38]-[83:24]| High standards, stress, and imposter syndrome| | Transition to Instructor | [95:27]-[98:02]| Moving to Europe and learning to teach | | Ballistics & Sniper Talk | [99:46]-[127:42]| Modern sniping – calibers, environment | | Joke Stories/Afro Wig | [129:51]-[132:41]| Surviving formation humor misfires |

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Contact & Closing

Contact for Training, Speaking, or Consulting:

• Website: greystone-tcp.com
• Email: [e-mail]

Closing Words:
Brent lauds Xavier as the “whole man concept” and one of the most universally liked operators in The Unit, underscoring not just his technical mastery across Army and Marine SOF, but his character, humility, and rare ability to inspire and teach.

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For listeners: Xavier Lendof’s story is proof that elite performers are made, not born, and that humility, humor, and relentless drive open doors from NYC streets to the world’s most exclusive units.

Transcript

[A]

Welcome back to the Tier One podcast. I'm your host, Brent Tucker, owner of FRCC. That's First Responders, coffee, cigar and cask company. Go to FRCC shop and use promo code Tier One to get 15% off the world's best coffee, cigars and bourbon.

[B]

And I'm Drew Tucker, K cup machine repair man at first responder, Coffee, Cigar and cast company. Join our Patreon. It's brought to you by Cobalt Kinetics. At our Patreon, you've got access to behind, behind the scenes content, exclusive content. We've got a fitness forum, a gun forum, and in that gun forum, there's a Cobalt Kinetics weapons expert ready to answer all your weapons questions. So join that Patreon.

[A]

And as always, this episode is brought to you by Human Performance TRT. Go to hp-trt.com use promo code tier1 and get 20% off all your testosterone and peptide needs. Don't wait any longer to get in the best shape of your life, get your blood work done, and be the best man or woman you can be this year. Get back in shape. Quit wasting time. All right, Drew, let's do it. For the special forces. Welcome to the Tier one podcast. This is amazing. Dude, check this out. I'm excited about this one. I get to do this every now and again, and that is interview a friend. And they're. They're my favorite ones to do. With us, we have Xavier Lindoff, former Marine Force Recon, Green Beret, Delta Force operator, and currently designs and directs sniper training around the world. Thanks for coming on.

[B]

Thanks for having me, bro.

[A]

It's been. Been too long. It's. He came in the other day. We've been catching up in the garage, smoking cigars, telling old team room stories, and it's. It's been the best.

[B]

I brought my case of beer.

[A]

You brought your case of beer. First podcast for podcast. So I. I love that you're. You're maintaining the standard still case of beer. The. In fact, I just told you before we came on that I was like, I'm. I'm probably gonna enjoy this more than you. It's never fun to talk about yourself.

[B]

It just.

[A]

It just isn't. But as much time as we've spent together, I. I knew that introduction like that I knew. But I don't know. I don't know your story at all. I don't. And how. How. How embarrassing is that? But we do it all the time, but.

[B]

Exactly. Exactly. I think the issue with that is because we're running around all the time. And we're always busy doing one thing or another. And then when you do have downtime, you want to go relax somewhere, you know what I mean?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And most of the time the conversations are really about joking with each other or giving you a hard time, whatever.

[A]

Yeah, it's one of those, you get a little bit older in hindsight, but just, yeah. Doing the, the old man reminiscing of sorts. There was, there was no, there was no shortage of, of joking around, giving each other a hard time and, and a lot of work at the same time. But yeah, so we basically, we prioritized joking around over, over learning about, like each other's stories.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

I mean, again, you don't, something you don't realize at the time, it's not intentional but something you look back and go, man, we couldn't have cut out any time for me to sit down and be like, tell me, tell me your story. How'd you, how exactly did you get here? Yeah. But hey, that's what podcasts are for, apparently. So we can.

[B]

Thank you.

[A]

So we can, so we can rectify that.

[B]

I'm glad you're solving that problem.

[A]

Solving that problem for, for us in the world.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Yes. Well, let's start at the beginning. In fact, I'm actually going to throw a curveball at you off the bat. Tell me, let's, let's go back because I said I was just going to ask you, you know, when you joined, but there's a part of your story that is intriguing to me. We're going to take some broad strokes here. And most of the people in special operations come out and I would say middle sized towns to small towns. It's, you know, big cities are sprinkled in there for sure. There's a wide range from left and right, but the majority of those guys pretty much come from those areas. Where'd you come from?

[B]

New York City, man.

[A]

Yeah, I don't, I don't know a lot of guys that I served with that grew up in New York City or grew up in big cities. Yeah, they're in the military for sure, but for whatever reason, just not a lot in special operations. What you think about is a little odd because there are millions and millions and millions of people. So you think just by sheer numbers I would, I would know more.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But in my small sample size, it's just you.

[B]

It's just me. Thank you, thank you, thank you.

[A]

So had growing up in, in, in New York City and what, what borough.

[B]

So when I was born, we Were living in Washington Heights.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

That's like little Dominican Republic. As a kid, we used to travel the Dominican Republic a lot in the summertime. And when my parents got divorced, my biological parents, when they got divorced, I went to live full time in Dominican Republic. We were in, in Santo Domingo in an area called Villa Consuelo. And then once my parents or my mom got herself together, she remarried. I came back to the States and started going back to school there. And at 11 is when we moved to the Bronx.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And so at 11, do, do you think if I go back and, and talk to 11 year old ex and be like, hey, you're, you're, you're going to be in the military? Do you think that would surprise you at that time?

[B]

At that time, yes. Yeah, at that time, yes.

[A]

All right, what?

[B]

The next year changes.

[A]

Why is that?

[B]

Well, so I did not get along with my stepfather. My mom remarried this crazy little Colombian. I love him now for sure, but at the time we just did not get along at all. And I wanted to be outside of my house as often as possible. At that time, we were going to elementary school. That's when I met my man Richmond there. And I had another friend named Manny and he told me about cadets. So on Saturdays it's run by retired military personnel, Navy, Marines, army, things like that. And they go over military courtesy drilling ceremony, general orders, how to stand that attention. And the most fun was war games. You know, you go to park and, and play with like pop rifles and stuff like that. Yeah, that was a last stop on one of the trains to go to Far Rockaway because I used to take the train from the Bronx. Last stop in the Bronx and the one to the last stop. I forget which train it is, but it's Far rock. It took three hours. Oh, wow. To get there. So at 12 is when I started doing that early in the morning to go over there just to get away from.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

My stepdad, my buddy would tell me that, hey, it's every Saturday and we do everything that I described, but I didn't hear anything but being gone every Saturday.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So I was in.

[A]

Life's about choices. And unfortunately, some of the choices we make at such a young age have dire consequences. Right. They can even prohibit you from, from all sorts of things you want to do later on in life where you chose something to do that was, that was beneficial to you. Do you, do you believe that? You believe that was luck? Was it something, I mean, you could have chose to do anything? I'm sorry. Yeah, I'm just making up random things. You could. You could have went and run with the wrong people, you know, had a lot of fun. You could have. You could have played basketball. There's. There's a lot of things you. You could do there in the city. As you look back again, do you think that's luck or what? Why do you think that was something you fell into? It's. And. And lucky for us, you did, but appreciate that. Thanks. But the why behind that, why do you think that is?

[B]

At first. At first, it was the. The structure, because I didn't. Again, I didn't want to be at home, but I didn't really. Like. I didn't. I wasn't a tough kid. I think Herb was the technical term for the kind of kid that I was not tough at all. So I wanted to do something else. And when I started going to cadets, it gave me a chance to do something really fun, which was, you know, play those war games and everything like that. And the retired Marine that was running the show at the time, he was the one that talked to me about Marine Corps. Okay. It's the hardest boot camp. It's the most selective, the most difficult to get in. And then once you get in, there's recon, Force recon. And I was buying it. Yeah, all of it. Got the brochures, I got the stickers. Got it. I got everything. I started watching different movies or just learning more about reconnaissance. Marines.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And after that, I was all in. I used to hang out at the recruiting station after a while.

[A]

I love that. I think I've told this story before as well, and it's just odd. The road. The curving road that life can have. Drew can second this. I was scared to get on roller coasters as a kid. I don't think anyone would have considered me a tough kid. I was undersized. I was athletic, and I was good in sports. But at some point, you get to middle school and then high school, like, size starts the matter, you know, and you can be as athletic as you want, but size, you know, matters. And that eventually it kind of cultivated me into. Into being more tough and learning about grit before the military. But it's just. It just resonates with me and hopefully, you know, resonates with other people in the audience. Just because you end up at the top of the food chain in the military, it just kind of breaks that. Like, we. We didn't. That wasn't always us.

[B]

It's.

[A]

It's something you turn into. It's Something that's, that's there and it's just uncultivated. You know, it's not, it's just not, it's not developed yet, but it's there. You don't really know what, what someone is capable of or, or can turn into until they're challenged, until they're, they're molded. Agreed. And we both had. Had that experience, but from very different backgrounds. But that's, that's the common denominator.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Oh, you talked about movies. Do you have any particular movie that you watch as a kid? You're like, that's Full Metal Jacket.

[B]

I think I watched that thing like six times a day. Yeah, I absolutely loved it. The boot camp portion of it at first, but I wanted to go through that. I mean, I was still nervous about it. I mean, but I really wanted to, to, to do that.

[A]

So that answers that question of why the Marines? I mean, it wasn't a, it wasn't a question for you?

[B]

No, no, no, no, no. Not by that point.

[A]

Yeah. When did you sign up?

[B]

Right when I turned 17.

[A]

So I couldn't wait.

[B]

As soon as I told you, I have. I hung out at the, at the recruiting station. As soon as I was able to take the ASVAB and, and join, I had my mom, you know, she, she signed the, whatever the paperwork was.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I entered the delayed entry program.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

And then finished my senior year in high school. Went to Dominican Republic one last time for a couple weeks. And then In August of 96, when I graduated. 96, I was in Parris Island.

[A]

Did you do well in school?

[B]

When I, with subjects that I, that I wanted to pay attention to. No, I wasn't, I wasn't a straight A student by any means, but on the, some of the subjects that I wanted to.

[A]

Right.

[B]

That I, that I enjoyed. The teachers had a lot to do with that too.

[A]

There is a variable for sure.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But for the most part, no, I wasn't a great student.

[A]

It goes back to the, you know, the, the capability though, of you as a young man. Which means if you're interested in it, which mean you wanted to apply yourself, that, that there was a lot of ability and in this young man I was good enough. Exactly. Yeah. So when you go, you join the Marines, it delays for a year. You go. Right. Pretty close to your 18th birthday.

[B]

No. So I went in August. I turned 19 in December.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

So I went through boot camp, which was nerve wracking at first, obvious the way it's supposed to be, but not long into boot camp, I was made a squad leader. And now when your guidance squad leaders usually pay for whatever the. The platoon does wrong, which is everything. Right. But guidance qualities also eat last. And I had an issue with that because I didn't eat as fast as. As the other squad leaders. I was, I don't know, 6ft tall, 145 pounds, and I was hungry. Yeah, a lot. So everybody goes through chow. The guide is the last person to eat. Once he's done, everybody leaves. The issue was, this dude was huge. I mean, strong, like, farm strong. Pick you up and break you in two.

[A]

If he wanted to farm strong, I get that. So it's a great term. Yeah.

[B]

But he ate in addition to being strong. He ate fast. I mean, he was a vacuum, you know, and I tried to. Because I wouldn't be able to finish.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Even though he sat down after me, I would not be able to finish my food.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I remember asking him, like, hey, look, man, can you just. Just give me a second or two? Just slow down just a little bit.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And he was robotic. He was like, no, I need to.

[A]

I'm like, all right, silly Bob, help me out.

[B]

Exactly. But I was like, all right, I got to figure something out. At the end of the chow line, there's a bowl with little crackers, saltine crackers, packets of two.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

I loaded my tray up with a bunch of those crackers he needed to continue to eat. So when I sat down, I started eating as fast as I could, as I normally do. But when I see that he's about to be done, I grab my crackers and I throw it at him, and he completely eats it. You know what I mean? While I continue to eat and I keep throwing crackers at him until all he eats. And then finally, you know, it takes like two or three packets and I'm done. I'm like, all right, no more crackers for you. Let's get out of here now.

[A]

I love it. I love it because really, again, what. What it exemplifies is problem solving, and

[B]

I need to eat, man, which you.

[A]

You will need later on in your military career. But you had. You had that, you know, from. From the get go. It sounds like a silly story, and it, you know, it kind of is. And it's amusing when I hear that story. Like, the first thing I think of is problem solving. And it happens at every level.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

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[B]

So boot camp, after boot camp, we go to. Well, I was open contract, okay. So in open contract, we had to go through Camp Guard and all these boots, brand new. We weren't. Camp Geiger called us Geiger Tigers at the time. We were, we would do guard duty on several points of the base. In Camp Geiger, there's like an, an alternate entrance. You'd have two, you know, boots there, guys at the, at the ammo supply point, you'd have two people there, like six hour shifts, something like that. But it, I was there for two weeks until the next phase of training began. So what in the army is ait? In the Marine Corps, it's either Marine Combat training or mct.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Or itb, Infantry Training Battalion. All right, now because I was open contract, I was needs of the, of the Marine Corps.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

The rumor at the time was either a cook or an mp. I didn't want to be the one of those. I wanted to be a recon Marine. So throughout those two weeks, I was trying to figure out, like, how can I go to infantry instead of Marine combat training. And one of the NCOs in charge, he told me that, you know, if you try to find the S1 NCO, you know, the administrative person in charge there, they might be able to do something. But I don't know how you would want to change that, how you could change that.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So on the day that I was lucky in the sense that mct, Marine Combat training and ITB picked up on the same day. So a buddy of mine, guy that I met while we were in Camp Guard, we wanted to go speak to whoever was in charge to see if they can switch us to infantry training Battalion. So we figure out where this individual is, and we're about to go in, and then the third boot comes up, and he's like, hey, I want to go, too. I want to do this, too. So I was like, all right, fine. Let's go. So we go, we find the individual. It's a mat. He's a master sergeant. Brookshire is his name. And he first, he entertained us. Small talk, like, okay, what. What do you want to do? What is this? A little bit of back and forth. And then he's like, all right, so you want to do this? I say, yes. My other buddy, you want to do this? He says yes to the third guy that decided to walk in that day. He says, well, not really, Master Sarn. I was thinking about something else. So right off the bat, Master sergeant's like, all right, look, look, guys, go back. You'll figure it out. You'll be fine. Everything will be all right. Just continue to do what you were going to do. And I was upset. I was pissed. I wanted to hit this kid, but. But I got the. The impression that there was a chance.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, because he thought about it, you know, and he asked. So I went back in there and I told him. I was like, look, I don't know what that other kid was saying, but I am serious about this. I want to do. I want to be infantry. I don't want to be a cook or an mp. Nothing wrong with that. I just don't want to do that.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And again, a little bit more back and forth. And I remember saying, like, don't you want to be, you know, warm? You know, I mean, in the cold and. And air conditioned in the summer, heated in the winter, all that stuff. I said, no, I want to go. I want to be an infantry. And looked at us for a second, then called somebody over. He's like, all right, hey, get these guys information. He told him, gave me the instructions, and. And that was it. And then after that, he said, look, you're going to infantry training Battalion. I don't want to hear from you afterward. Like, oh, I made a mistake. All I want to hear is, so master on Brookshire, if you're watching, thank you for. For doing that for me, because I don't know if they. If that was allowed or what, but we made it happen and. And got to infantry.

[A]

Well, yeah, it's as. As we know now, so many people won't help you out in the military, and it's not. They're not Capable of. It's just the answer no. It's just easy. It's just easy to say no. Get you out of my face. Agreed. And keep doing it. When the option of yes is always there. You just have to want. You just have to want to help someone out.

[B]

Yes. If there's a way.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Try to find.

[A]

Right. If there's a way. So that's. And it's again for the road you ended up being on. Had he done that, that changes your whole career.

[B]

Everything.

[A]

It changes everything. Yeah.

[B]

MP lend off or chief Cook, I'm assuming.

[A]

But the other thing that, you know, I want to say about that is. And some people may look at that and say, well, maybe, maybe that's why I don't want to give anyone a off the hook. Let them off the hook, if you will, by saying, well, see, I could have done something bigger and better. But you know, sometimes there's a lot of luck involved.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And there is. But you made your own luck by going back to him and saying, because you could have taken the first. No. 1. You could have never gone up there and said anything. You said something once you got told no, but you looked for a reason to say, but is that really a no?

[B]

He said there was a chance. He didn't say it, but he looked at me. He's like, there's a chance, kid.

[A]

So even when there's luck involved, there's just people who work hard and are persistent and fight for what they want just happen to be luckier than other people. And I don't. And I don't think that's by chance. So you go, how long were you in the infantry before you decided to so be challenged to the next step?

[B]

Yeah. So after I went through infantry training, battalion graduated as an 0311 rifleman and I was assigned to Light Armored Reconnaissance LAR. And now that's with reconnaissance vehicles. Now that's one of two pivotal points, most notable in my mind because that set the tone for how I would try to behave for the rest of my military career. And my first squad leader, his name is Mike, called him Hollywood. He was intelligent, he knew his small units, small unit tactics. He was fair just and he was fit. You know, we would work out in the morning, he lead in calisthenics and break us off. Everybody, you know, flutter kicks until the day is done. And I saw that, I was impressed by it and I wanted to be like that. So that set the tone for what I wanted to do, how I wanted to move in the military, being like that individual like him, like Mike. So again, Mike, thanks for being New York.

[A]

I love that. I do. I. You don't know how. No one knows how long they're gonna be in the military.

[B]

No.

[A]

And at any point you could run into a bad boss that will just crush people's dreams. You know, had they. Had they got a different first boss. Again, back to variables. You know, what could have been a 20 year, very successful career ends up being. I can't wait to get out of the military.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

But still, even that isn't. Is an excuse for anyone because it's a little bit nearsighted. A bad bosses come and go, unfortunately, good bosses come and go. But I love that. Love that the culture was right right off the bat where you went.

[B]

And I was lucky in that respect.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Again, they were not to downplay anybody else because I had great leaders.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But he was the first quality that I had. He set the bar very high and that's where I wanted to be, you know.

[A]

How long did you stay in that unit?

[B]

Two years.

[A]

Two years.

[B]

Two years.

[A]

Was recon the next step for you?

[B]

Yes.

[A]

All right. That's two years, isn't. It's not nothing. No, but it's not that long either. Did you get any pushback because of your juniorness?

[B]

No, no. The. They were very supportive of that. You want to go do something else, that's cool. You know, you want to do that, fine. No problem. They, I mean, I still did my work, everything that I needed to do, but I still had time to physically prepare myself to try out to go to recon battalion and I went with their blessing. Yeah.

[A]

What year is this?

[B]

This is 98.

[A]

98. Okay.

[B]

Or 99. Excuse me, 99.

[A]

Either one. What did you know about recon at the time?

[B]

I knew that I wanted to do that, whatever that was, because there was a lot of amphibious stuff going on.

[A]

You know what I mean?

[B]

A lot of surface swims. It was an easy way to look at it is they were the amphibious portion of the infantry.

[A]

Right.

[B]

You know you're gonna do dives, right. You know, combat dives and be on boats and do over the horizon stuff like that. I wanted to do that.

[A]

This is pre. Not completely pre Internet and. And Google.

[B]

But it's not. Yeah, no, no, no, not completely. Yeah, but it was still. It wasn't a thing. I.

[A]

Right. Even if it was because I don't know the exact year, I know this. Even if it was, there's not. There wouldn't have been a lot of information on it like the way it is now.

[B]

I didn't knew about aol, but I didn't know I was already in recon when my buddy's like, hey, look at this Google.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I was like, what is that? He's like type anything in ask it a question.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Type whatever and it'll give you an answer, that kind of thing.

[A]

But of course it's only as, as good as what's populated and there can't information, you know. So did you get, did you get any information from other Marines?

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Which may have been the, the worst resource of information. What I mean by that is to compare, you know, our careers. When I wanted to go to sf, everyone around me was more than happy to tell me about sf. Why would they know anything about S. You're around me, Correct? Yeah, you didn't go there. So that's kind of what I mean by that. Did you get good information, get bad information? Would you get.

[B]

It was, it was. So to get there there were a series of events that you need to do. It was an indoc, right. But when I went, it was just a screening in order to be accepted for the Recon Indoctrination Platoon. Right. And that was PD test pft. So sit ups, pull ups, three mile run, some pool activities, things like that. And then you're accepted into the RIP Platoon. Now at that time, you know, you always run around in pairs. You have a rope. Every morning is your pt, you know, exercising, whether it's surface swims, running the obstacle course, ruck runs. And then in the afternoons were classes like Antenna Theory, Small unit Tactics, Op order, whatever the case, you know, trying to reporting formats, trying to learn how to be a Recon Marine. And that was in preparation for the Amphibious Reconnaissance School. Ars, which was in Fort Story, Virginia. Then when we actually went, everybody that, that was in the RIP platoon ended up passing and that was 99. And they ran a really good program. It was difficult, but we were more than prepared for ars. And when we went to fourth Story, went through the course, came back recoveries and it was really cool.

[A]

The word where, where'd you go after that? Which, which force recon? 2nd.

[B]

2nd 2nd Battalion. They were at French Creek at the time. North Carolina? Yeah.

[A]

When you get there, just roughly how, how long is, is that, is that pipeline?

[B]

Well, it depended on the next cycle, the next class to pick up. We were there, I want to say a couple of months before went going to ARS and then ARS itself. Oh man, I'm drawing a blank right now. I think it Was like eight weeks, maybe nine weeks.

[A]

In fact, you might be the first recon Marine that we've had on the show. I didn't really intend to do that. I actually just realized it now. And of course we've had rangers.

[B]

Is that another case of beer?

[A]

That's not. Now I got to give you the case of beer back.

[B]

Thank you. Yes.

[A]

When I ask you a little more about that, because that's. Yeah, that's. That, that'll be, that'll be interesting. About the pipeline, of course, like, you know, because you've pretty much done it all. You're very aware of the Q course pipeline. Very long.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

You know, and, and has different modules and phases that are very specific.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

How different is, is that compared to the Q course?

[B]

Well, it, it is different in a sense because the Q course is divided up into the different phases.

[A]

Right.

[B]

There are phases in amphib recon school.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

But everybody that starts and everybody goes through the same program of instruction.

[A]

Right.

[B]

You don't separate to go do a specific mos and then come back together like in the Q course. So you do everything from amphibious swims to patrolling, learning how to work as a six man team recon team.

[A]

Is, Is diving an advanced skill after that or was that plugged into the pipeline there?

[B]

There wasn't a pipeline at the time anyways. There wasn't a pipeline to say if we have, they have dive school quotas, then you know, these guys are ready to go to dive school. You know, a team or a platoon would send guys to go down there. But it wasn't like after you graduated ars, everybody goes to that. Everybody goes to jump school.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Everybody does go to jump school though.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Or the majority of people do. Which is what. Where I went after that to Fort Benning. That was, it was freezing at the time. It was like January. Yeah.

[A]

I went to one January, maybe February. It was freezing.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That was the only thing. Well, there's a couple of miserable things about jump school, but it wasn't because it was necessarily hard.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Freezing with dumb rules. Yeah.

[B]

And then being in, being in an army atmosphere as a recon Marine now, you know, I was, I was excited to go do this. You know, you develop friendships while you're there. Remember on the last week I was, I was having a good time with the guys. We were in a platoon and we were waiting to graduate. We're like two or three days out from graduating. We've done our five jumps and we were standing in the back of the platoon and I get the bright idea, because, you know, the instructors will say, jumpers, hit it.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

And then you get into the body position that you're going to use when you step off the plane, and then you come out of that position when they said, check canopy, Gain canopy control, or recover, anything like that. So we're in the back, and I see the instructors, the black hats, maybe 25 meters in front of the platoon, mingling around, just talking amongst themselves. And I thought it'd be funny to yell, jumpers, hit it. And I did. But not the whole class did it, you know, the majority did, you know, 1 1,000, 2 1,000.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And so I'm standing there giggling. What I did not know. And I didn't check my surroundings. There were two instructors behind me. Whether they were coming from somewhere or they'd always been back there, I didn't know. So they yelled, you know, recover or check. Canopy gang. Canopy troll. You get over here. I was like, you know. But I ran over. He's like, so you want to be a black cat? Here you go. Go to the front of the platoon. So I started jogging. He's like, get back over. Get in the back of the line. He's like, fucking Marines, man. And then. Then we got off. Yeah.

[A]

Would. Do you. Do you remember your first jump?

[B]

It was a night jump. I do. I do. It was. It was from the ramp, but it.

[A]

Was it from the ramp.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

On your first.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That's unique.

[B]

Yeah, it's from the ramp and C130.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And I. Scared of, man.

[A]

Yeah, I. I'd say if. For whatever. It's. It's the great equalizer. It really is. Like, we can. It's always funny. Jump schools is the pinnacle of some people's career, and so they kind of look back at jump school as. As something, you know, very sacred to them. And I don't by any means, mean to take that away from them. It's just through a different lens through for us. It's just something else we have to go through because, you know, we have other things that. That we want to do. Right. So the school itself is a very different. Different experience because of the lens we view it through. But I don't care where you're coming from. I don't. I don't care if. What. 11 series infantry, if you want to call it, you, basic job all the way up to future green brace, future Navy SEALs, future Force Recon. It's just not in your human nature to want to jump out of an airplane at 5,000ft. For the first time. It is, it is nerve wracking. Yeah, it really is.

[B]

And it, and we saw because you had, you had to jump from like from the tower where you jump off the side and then you slide down the cable and then the, the one where you're already in a parachute and they drop this crane almost. You hook the parachute up to that. Lift you up.

[A]

I didn't get to do that because the high winds. Yeah. Most classes I feel like, actually don't get to do that.

[B]

Correct. Yeah, we got a chance to do that. Yeah. And that one of the, one of the guys that was going through the course, he's like, I'm not doing that. Hung it up.

[A]

I think I've told this story before, but it just, it reminds me I was, I was not excited about jumping out of this plane.

[B]

No, you too.

[A]

But, but, but I mean, I was going to because it was, I was going. I was already selected. So I'm going the Q course. And this is not going to get in the way of me being a green braid. So I knew I had to do this. So I was going to jump out regardless. My leg was shaking, just shaking when it came to hook up. My legs just shaking out of fear. And I'm probably the third or fourth guy from the front. And the person to my right as I stood up ends up being the person in front of me. Because we're going to jump out the right door is an ROTC little blonde girl cadet who is apparently a psychopath because she looked like she was having the time of her life. And I'm like, that's not what I look like. And so for me, out of real, like realization moment, like, hey, you better, you better buck up, buddy. Like, if, if this girl's about to jump out of this thing and you're scared to.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like you, you might either might want to man up or really rethink about your career choices. And I chose the man up. But that, that of sorts is in a weird. That's, that's kind of what calmed me down. And be like, well, if she's going to do it, get over this. Like, let's go.

[B]

Exactly. Because you can get that feedback or the fear.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

If someone else is panicking, like, wait a minute, why are we panicking? What's going on here? I don't know what's happening.

[A]

Yeah. Peer pressure absolutely works for bad. There's a lot of bad things that happen out of peer pressure, but peer pressure works for good too.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And that's. You Know why we said on the podcast, a lot of times, you know, show me who your friends are, I'll tell you who you are. Who you surround yourself with really has a strong, strong indicator of. Of your future success because they will peer pressure you.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Into being better. Yeah, I agree. The. When. When you get through all that, did you go into dive school through. Through force?

[B]

No, I went through dive school as. As an SF guy.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

The. How long did you spend in force and what did you think? Because you feels like it's accurate to say you didn't know a whole lot about Force Recon. You knew it was a job you want to do, but you don't really know really what. What you're getting into.

[B]

The more I learned about it, the more excited I got about doing the job. So in Force Recon, at the time, that's when you started doing cqb. That's when we went to, like, HALO school and doing the longer reconnaissance patrols, which was, you know, more difficult, and I really enjoyed that. When we were in Iraq, it was in 6 Platoon when it. When the war started there.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

We were doing a lot of really good things, but I saw that at that point, the SF team that was there and we were in Mosul for just a couple of weeks. The SF team that was there, I think it was fifth group, not. Don't quote me on that, but they were doing some more offensive operations. More of what I wanted to do more. More of that. And that's what planted the seed basically, for me to do the Go sf.

[A]

I hate saying this, because I do. I have a reverence for the Marine Corps. And anyone who looks at it realistically and not with, you know, not with bias. And, you know, there's always the jokes, but how can you not. They. They have a high standard. They uphold the standard. I love how they. How they preach their history. I love how they maintain the culture and they. And that carries over into force. All the guys that I met through force, ironically enough, most of those were in the Q course.

[B]

Oh, was it? Oh, right.

[A]

Or later on in my career. Always had really good interactions with those guys. I knew they were good guys, but the. The problem with. The same thing I love about the Marine Corps ends up being the problem with. With Force Recon is that they're still a part of the Marine Corps, and the Marine Corps isn't really built culturally for special operations. Do you kind of. Do you agree with that assessment?

[B]

Yes.

[A]

See, that's a. Yeah, it's a really general term, but I think, you know, where I'm. Where I'm going with that.

[B]

The way that, the way that I felt about. I love the Marine Corps, and I love the fact that I started there.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I would not change that for anything.

[A]

Right.

[B]

But the more I saw about it, the more I felt like Marines are each other's worst enemy when it came to. To certain things. So I'm not surprised that, like, if. If Marines want to leave Force Recon and go to, you know, work at another organization, some of them will get pushed back. Not everybody would be allowed to go.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That kind of thing. There are some limiting factors, but that's.

[A]

And one of the things I can, again, I can only say it from the outside, looking in or from secondhand information or hearing from people that. But you lived it. Do you believe a limiting factor of what you guys were able to do in Iraq is. Is a part of that? What I kind of alluded to, the Marine Corps culture, that that didn't release force to be a part of USASAK or, I'm sorry, socom. And so, you know, when were you guys a part of the Siege of Soda or were you maintained control by the Marine Corps?

[B]

The Marine Corps, right. Because I was in the Marine Expeditionary Unit when the wars began, when Iraq began. So we were crossing the Atlantic and then we got diverted to go to Mosul. So we were still under Marine Corps command and everything that that Marine Expeditionary Unit was supposed to do. So even though we were in Iraq, we weren't supposed to be there in the first place because it was a different type of deployment.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

But there were opportunities to do some more offensive things. And my platoon, we did everything that we could.

[A]

Right.

[B]

But I just saw that in the army side, it seemed like they had more awareness of what else could be done.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And it seemed like they had more access to those types of operations. To me, it did.

[A]

Yeah. If you've ever been to any of my tactical training classes, then you know how adamant I am about the use of white light and the importance of a quality high powered tactical light. That's why I use cloud defensive tac lights. You can't hit what you can't see and neither can the bad guys. Clearly identify your target and simultaneously overwhelm his vision with hundreds and even thousands of lumens. Get serious about defending yourself and your family. Go to clouddefensive.com and use promo code tier one to get 30% off your order. That's right, 30%. You won't find a better light than this. And you won't find a better deal than this. How long did you spend it at? At Force.

[B]

So I was there for, I think three years. Okay, three years. And then after that deployment is when I decided that I wanted to go Special Forces. Yeah.

[A]

Did you get your paddle on the way out?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Is that the right term? The pad?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

What do you want to call it?

[B]

Paddle.

[A]

Okay. I might have to put up a picture on. On if I remember to. They do something really cool.

[B]

The thing is, man, do you know

[A]

the history of that or why? And then someone has to do it for you. Correct. And the rating, everything about it can be really cool.

[B]

Usually, like your teammates will do it or somebody who's really good at it. I. I'm upset that I got it at that time because the skills have improved.

[A]

Right. There's been a lot of one uppers since, man.

[B]

The paddles that I see today, mine, mine. I mean, you can put that in the dollar store, you know, compared to the ones that, that are coming out now. But yeah, I got my paddle from my team. We had a paddle party and everything like that.

[A]

Okay, so you, you ended up getting out of the military completely correct?

[B]

Yes, for today.

[A]

For a day. Okay. So it wasn't one of these, I'm gonna get out, figure things out, and I end up going back in?

[B]

No.

[A]

You had a plan.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

What was your plan?

[B]

So I knew I wanted to go to Special Forces qualification course. I went to the recruiter in, In Jacksonville and he explained the situation. Said, look, you know, you're going to have to go through like six months of Sopsy. I think it was Special Operations prep course. Oh, yeah, Something like that. So he explained it to me.

[A]

Arguably one of the hardest parts of the Q course.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

Did you go to Sopsy?

[B]

No.

[A]

Okay. Okay. All right.

[B]

So I heard. But I didn't. I.

[A]

Nor should you have.

[B]

I just wanted to go to Selection.

[A]

Right, Right.

[B]

So active duty. That was going to be the, the, the route.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Then one of my friends, Javier oblige, he passed away, though, in combat. But he told me about the National Guard, and I didn't even know that there were Special Forces National Guard units. So he said, if you go to the National Guard, they can send you to the Q course, and then you can, you know, go do a deployment with them, and then you can go to whichever group you want to go to. You contact them, and they'll accept you. Chances are they'll accept you because you're already a trained individual and you're coming onto their unit. So I googled National Guard Special forces, and West Virginia was one of the 219 was one of the results. I think they were the second group that I called. The first one had another like six month training program or something like that. When I called West Virginia, they said, well, and I explained my situation. I'm a Force Recon Marine. I'm about to get out in like, you know, a couple of months. I want to go to the Q course. I want to be in Special Forces. And he said, if you come up here and you pass the PT test, we'll send you to the next available course.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So that was at the end of 2003. So in January 2004, I get out on the 20th, on the 21st, I sign with West Virginia Guard, and in February I'm in selection.

[A]

I love that story because so many times people get bad advice.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You don't know what you don't know.

[B]

Correct.

[A]

That is actually, that is the advice I, I would have given someone as well. National Guard Special Forces is perfect for certain scenarios and that, and that's one of them. And they are, they're, they're, they're a great, they're a great secret. Almost.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And to be able to be able to be able to be able to do that was, was almost a gift. And they're right. You can, you go right to active duty so quick. But as you'll find out, there's so many programs, there's so many different things with the National Guard SF that, that are open to you that people don't know about.

[B]

Correct.

[A]

How did they, how did they treat you and the Q course with that kind of background? Because you're not, you're not the average Q course student. And you know, it's a long course. And word gets out, people, both students and instructors. I'm not saying every instructor knew who you were, but maybe.

[B]

Right. They knew that I was a former Marine. I still, I guess, behaved like a Marine while I was there. But honestly, the, the guys that came from Ranger battalion that were going through the Q course, they were helping me navigate the, the army culture.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Because it's a little bit different.

[A]

Right.

[B]

You know what I mean?

[A]

There's nuances to everything.

[B]

There are, There are. And like certain just how to behave, how to, how to, how to, how to move in the Army.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And I leaned on them a lot for how they conducted business, whether it was, you know, during the training events or anything like that, other than doing whatever the instructors, you know, asked of us. But I, I leaned heavily on those Ranger battalion guys.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. And airborne guys. 82nd guys.

[A]

How did land nav, I'm assuming, is something you're good at. You went to the hardest land nav course in the world and recon Marine

[B]

and,

[A]

And did well. That's along the lines. You know, the, the star course is. Is. And the land navigation there in Camel is widely regarded as. Yes, of course we're biased. Like the hardest land navigation course in the army do was the star course and, and land naving and the draws of North Carolina harder than the land Navy did at recon. Or just similar or just different because. Different terrain.

[B]

The. The. The terrain in Camp Lejeune, in the hinterlands, like between. Because we had to get into the Intercoastal Waterway and into the ocean and everything like that. Going through that brush is ridiculously difficult.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Because it's thick.

[A]

It's dense. Yeah, it is.

[B]

And it's difficult to navigate. There's brush like that in Fort Bragg. But it was very difficult to terrain associate.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

On Bragg. Yeah. So on the map, it might have a, you know, stream. Not on. Not on. Not on the ground.

[A]

Yeah. You learned real quick what you. What you can trust on a map, what you can't. Yeah. Scuba road. The. The. The people who. Who are aware enough to pick up those. Those breadcrumbs or spread crumbs of intelligence that through just a couple of days of doing experience, like. All right. And some people don't get it. And they're like, they're supposed to be a creek here. Well, it's a creek, man. Like a small river. Sure, that'll be there. But a small creek may or may not exactly. Yeah. So don't put that as a hard checkpoint there. And you're in your. In your route.

[B]

Not at all.

[A]

Not at all.

[B]

And you learn the hard way because you set up like, learn the reason why there are backstops. Because when you think you're somewhere and you reach that and I get that sick feeling in my stomach like I'm about to throw up because I think I'm lost.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That kind of thing. Then you start, you know, getting your bearings again and trying to figure out where you are to get to where you need to be.

[A]

I love land navigation. I did. I enjoyed it. Every land nav. Course I was. I was ever at. I. I thoroughly enjoyed the. I think it's. It's not the end all. Be all as. As we both know. But it is a great. I believe it's one One of the best single indicators of, of a man and, and to find out what he's made of. And in this process, you have the physical aspect of it through a heavy rucksack, you know, long distance. There's. The mental aspect of it is, hey, can, can you look at this map and, and translate it to a ground truth? Can you find the variables in this map that are constants that aren't and aren't? Can, can you apply off of a short class? Can you apply handrails? Can you apply backstops? Can you figure out time and distance, what it should be? You know, when is, when is the time to do an. An. At a true asmuth and a true pace count? You know, all these things. And then can you do it at night? And then can you do it when you're tired and hungry, still not make any mistakes? And every. It's about you.

[B]

Oh, the mistakes are going to happen.

[A]

The mistakes are gonna happen.

[B]

It's, it's just, what are you going to do when you are not where you think you are?

[A]

Right.

[B]

And you realize that as well.

[A]

You're right. It happens to everyone.

[B]

Happens to everyone. And that's because you're by yourself. There's nobody there that you can like, hey, where am I at? Or anything like that. You have to sort that out yourself. And that, that was, that is, I think one of the most difficult parts of doing individual land navigation, whether it's during the day or at night, is how are you going to get out of trouble?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

By yourself.

[A]

Yeah. And just to dive into that, you're. You're off track. How fast can you realize you're off track? Because some people don't realize it until, you know, obviously, the, the faster you recognize it, the easier it is to apply a solution.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

You're on that wrong track for too long. There may not be a solution at all, you know, available to you.

[B]

Correct.

[A]

I just, I love every aspect about it.

[B]

And you don't realize how fast you can go past a point Right. When you're, when you're going because you think you're not moving as fast. Next thing you know, you know, guys will outrun their headlights, what they call it, and completely bypass the point where they should have, I don't know, change their azimuth and end up simply somewhere completely different.

[A]

I was, I was told, I was told once by a selection student. I don't remember if he passed or not, but I remember someone telling me a story about selection, about people going into draws and then coming out of a draw unintended, like, the same side. They entered, like, did a 180 in that draw and came out. I remember thinking, are these people idiots? Like, how do you go into a draw and come out the same way?

[B]

Was this before you went into a draw this.

[A]

Well, it was in Sopsy, and it never happened to me. And the Sopsy territories. Essentially. Essentially the same territory as I was. And, you know, I was in selection. Probably gotten a little cocky at this point because. Because nothing had nothing to trip me up. I'm just. You're ready. I'm just grabbing every point.

[B]

Good.

[A]

And I go into this thick draw and I'm. I'm busting and fighting and fighting, fighting. I finally get out, and luckily I look at my compass to get, you know, back on heading, and the compass is telling me to go back in the draw. I was like, I just came out of the draw like this. And then. And naturally, of course, I'm not right. And I'm like, stupid compass.

[B]

It's the equipment.

[A]

And I start walking. And luckily, something back my mind goes, you sure it's the compass? Are you sure about that? Yeah. And I looked back and I had that epiphany and I said, oh, my gosh. I just did what I thought was impossible. I just walked into that draw, got turned around, and walked right back out the way I entered.

[B]

It's because tumbling, it's absolutely humbling. And it turns when you're in there. It is so difficult, so thick that you can't go. And then you start just. I just need to get out of here. What is the path of least resistance? And it just so happens to be where you came in. Right.

[A]

You take enough small lefts.

[B]

That's exactly. I'm not an Ambie Turner, though. But

[A]

what was your MOS that you went through the Q course at best?

[B]

Mos. Bravo.

[A]

I hate you. I would my. You. They give you a list. But then, you know, actually, they didn't give me a list because I was in the guard like you. So we went already with an MOS Correct.

[B]

As did I.

[A]

Everyone else gets gets a list, but that doesn't mean I didn't give a list to. I didn't give my. My preferences to my unit.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

Like, what do you want to be? I was like, bravo. And like, we don't have any Bravo slots. Like, okay, Charlie. We don't have any Charlie slots. And at point, at this point, I remember going, why don't you tell me what you want me to be? Exactly. I Don't. You know, I don't. That's just my inside voice.

[B]

So I play this game, right?

[A]

I'm like, well, I don't want to be an Echo or Delta. Like, well, those are the two spots available. I said, well, you sure I can't be a Bravo? They're like, actually, you can be, but we'll send you. We'll send you, but you, you won't come back to an ODA until, until a slot is available. Like, you'll have to go to the B team. And I'm like, well, okay, not doing that. And they're like, well, we're back to back or Delta. And I was like, well, if that's my only two options, Echo it is. Okay. That, that was a. That was, that was an easy decision from that point. So I got, I got what I didn't want. But like a lot, but like a lot of things in life, that's not what I wanted. That ended up being one of the, the best things that could have happened to me. Ended up with opportunities of deployments that I wouldn't have had. Doing certain missions on deployments that I couldn't have. When you can only take so many people.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

And you got to bring the combo guy.

[B]

You have to bring the combo guy. If you're not talking.

[A]

That's my right.

[B]

Period.

[A]

So ended up being, being a blessing. So you graduate. We said you already. HALO qualified through force.

[B]

No, no, no, not yet. Oh, yes, yes, I was. Yes, I was. But before graduating, the Q course, so I didn't have to do language, so. Because I tested out in Spanish. Okay. And then I didn't have to do Seer because I had done that recovery.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Slapped up already.

[A]

Yeah. So that was, that made a really long course. Just a little bit long. Because it's still a long course.

[B]

Yes, yes. But before I went to Robin Sage, West Virginia, they offered me a full time job doing counter drug.

[A]

Nice. Oh, yeah. And that's something I want to talk about. But now I got a question. When you were in the Q course, did you need, did you do any HALO jumps in the Q4? You. Were you out of. You doing. They, they put you back to static line.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Yes, correct.

[A]

That makes sense. Because if you're going to static line into phase two or into Robin Sage

[B]

plus at the time, the, the point is to get through the course, not to get a HALO jump and not to, I mean, right. To prevent an injury, you know, that kind of thing. Yeah.

[A]

Oh, I'd almost argue halo's Funny. You can, you can get by because you have more control. You can get more injured on a HALO jump for sure, but you can also have better landings cuz you're in control.

[B]

I dislocated my elbow on a HALO jump.

[A]

Yeah. I, I, I've, I've had some pretty nasty static line jumps, but by, but I, I'm thinking of it right now. My worst two jumps by far were, were, were HALO jumps or.

[B]

No, you're correct. Yes. For me the worst jump that I've had again dislocated my elbow.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Was a HALO jump. And I haven't had any injuries like that on static line.

[A]

What'd you think about Robin Sage? I'd imagine, you know this, that a lot of your, your training was a little, a little redundant, you know, because, because your past. But Robin Sage would have been a unique experience.

[B]

Yes, I thought it was really cool.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Because everybody's doing their job, you know.

[A]

Explain real quick what, what, what Robin Sage is. Just in case they don't.

[B]

So Robin Sage is one of the culminating exercises for the Special Forces qualification course. After you go do your MOS portion like what your job is going to be. In my case, I was a weapons sergeant. Brent was an echo communicator. Once you're done with those phases, you come back together and then you operate as a special forces detachment, as a team and everybody doing their job and then you meet with an indigenous force. You have to build rapport. You have to train them and then employ them in combat operations in Pineland.

[A]

Right. And in a, and in a very unconventional manner.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Like they, they don't, it's creative. Don't limit you.

[B]

It's creative.

[A]

What, whatever you can think of, they'll support.

[B]

And the, the entire exercise is very creative because you're right, you can do. If you can plan it and justify it.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

And, and it makes sense to them. Like it's not going to be anything crazy. They'll, they'll facilitate it and it's, I thought it was, for me it was the coolest part of the Q course.

[A]

It was, it really was. That, that was a very cool experience. We could do it, we could do a whole episode on Robin Sage stories

[B]

because from infield to X, everything man,

[A]

it's such a unique experience. So you get Back to, to 19th group and you have this full time job that I really do want to talk about because I actually did that job in Florida as well. We called it Kadota Counter Drug oda but it's taking A bunch of different names.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And it's. And it's only. I should. I was about to say it's only for the Guard, but I. That term is only for the Guard. But like fifth group has done, you know, like operations on the border, doing similar things with surveillance. 7th group does things like, like this in South America, but it's unique of something that, that the National Guard Special Forces does in conjunction with law enforcement. Law enforcement here. Conus.

[B]

That is correct. And that's because when we were in the Guard we fell under. I think it's title 32, right?

[A]

Yep. Title 32. State orders or.

[B]

Exactly state orders. And that allows you to support civilian law enforcement agencies to do surveillance and reconnaissance. Now that's how you get around the Posse Comitatus act because you can't use American forces to conduct operations on, on American citizens.

[A]

And we still can't do anything offensive.

[B]

No, no, no. It's a support role. Exactly.

[A]

Everything's in a support role.

[B]

It is surveillance and reconnaissance. Because the law enforcement officers we worked a lot with, mostly county sheriffs and state police, West Virginia and some city police departments, but they don't have the time to sit on an objective and watch it for 48 hours straight.

[A]

Right. They may not even have really the capability when it comes to some real.

[B]

That's another thing.

[A]

Rural areas.

[B]

Right, Right, exactly. To rural areas, but with a counter drug team. Like in West Virginia was only SF guys. I think Florida, same thing.

[A]

It was. It's changed since then, but it was, it was. I wouldn't say only sf, but it was SF heavy, that's for sure.

[B]

No, in West Virginia was only sf, so we treated it like reconnaissance operation. We'd take optics, pictures, video, patrol log everything and then we bottle all that up, package it, give it to law enforcement agencies for their ongoing investigations. Obviously they guide the location when we need to see, but we don't determine what is legal or illegal. We just record anything and everything and they decide what it is usable.

[A]

The real world experience I got from that was invaluable. Like it's. Because it is real world. It's not combat per se, but it. I mean the decisions you make and you know, have, have consequences out there and you're dealing with. With armed people that want to protect their way of life.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And so you take it very serious. I mean just. I've. I did everything from watch methods to watch certain facilities to see who was coming in and out. A lot of things in the woods. We did things urban, in the urban environment. As well. A lot of physical surveillance, some technical surveillance. It was great.

[B]

Like, I really, really enjoyed eradication again, those marijuana fields.

[A]

Yeah, really enjoyed that. How long did you do that for?

[B]

I was there for six years.

[A]

Oh, really?

[B]

Yeah. So while I was there, 9 to 5 was doing the. The counter drug portion. And when it comes to the real world, like, that's when I learned what a holler was. I had no idea what that was. And I know now not to go into where I. I don't understand what's going on in there. Do not go in there because that can turn into a combat situation that I'll probably lose.

[A]

What was, what Was the first ODA you got assigned to their 19th group?

[B]

Uh, the first team.

[A]

Because even though it's your full time job, of course, you're still part of an oda. Trains on the weekends, and you still have your obligation to your. To. To your team.

[B]

Correct.

[A]

As well.

[B]

The first team was a mountain team. I was a senior Bravo for a mountain team.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

We deployed to Iraq and it was, it was great. You know, I had a really good group there. We worked well together for the most part. Everybody went and everybody came back.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So that was good.

[A]

When did you go to a dive team? Is that something you want that you asked to do?

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

I wanted to because that we both know that some people avoid dive school like the plague.

[A]

Lesser men do. Yes.

[B]

There are individuals that. That is not what they want to do. That's the other equalizer water.

[A]

It is.

[B]

But after that deployment with the, with the mountain team, I went over to the dive team prepared, went to dive school, came back, and then was. Became the team sergeant for that team. And then I deployed as a team sergeant to Afghanistan with that dive team.

[A]

That's awesome.

[B]

Yeah, it was, it was pretty cool.

[A]

Were you an E7 or E8 when you.

[B]

I was an E7.

[A]

E7 when I, when I took the

[B]

team, I was an E7.

[A]

Oh, really?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And then did you, did you go to dive school first? You go to dive school through the team?

[B]

No, no, I went to dive school first.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And then went to the team. Yeah.

[A]

What'd you think about dive school? Because you'd been. That's not your first time in the water?

[B]

No, it's not my first time in the water.

[A]

It's your first time the way that you're in the water and the whole scope of it. But. But far from your first time in the water.

[B]

No, it wasn't my first.

[A]

Similar, but very different. Yeah.

[B]

Especially the pool yeah. Because that, that was the part that I would, I would get up and before going to the pool, I would be nauseous because I am not looking forward to this because I, I was. I, I was terrifying. But, you know, once you get through it and you just, you just do it.

[A]

Yeah. And I was lucky enough to, first time going, everything.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I went. I don't know about everything. We didn't.

[B]

No, no, no.

[A]

Fail the school and have to come back for, for any.

[B]

Well, the first time I failed a PT test.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

The very first time.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

Which was embarrassing. But then how'd you do that?

[A]

Why'd you fail the PT test?

[B]

I was hungover

[A]

that somehow. That is. That is correct.

[B]

So now that is correct. Ding, ding, ding, ding.

[A]

That. Yeah, that one from. I, I'm gonna ask him this question. I don't know how he's gonna. Yeah, it's, you know, it's my job. I have to ask questions. So I don't know where he's gonna go with this. But that.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

That wasn't, for some reason in my immediate catalog of possible answers. Like, I hope. I hope he has a good reason. You did.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Still poor, Judge.

[B]

Very poor. Very judgment and embarrassing.

[A]

Yeah, still embarrassing. Completely embarrassing.

[B]

Because nobody wants to come back, like, the first week, like, dude, you just went down to the school. What are you doing here? And. But I got lucky.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Because the very next class, an individual who was supposed to go had, like a family emergency or something like that. So a position opened up.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

They're like, hey, put down your beer. And you want to go again?

[A]

Yes, please. Thanks.

[B]

Let me stay sober this time.

[A]

Yeah. Tell me about being a team sergeant. If everyone doesn't know. I mean, that's, that is. I said everyone wants to be, you know, on a team. It's, it's, it's what? It's what you aspire to be. And, and especially to be able not to just be a team sergeant, but lead a team in combat.

[B]

It was great.

[A]

It's got to be pretty special.

[B]

It was, it was, it was good.

[A]

Personality dependent?

[B]

Humbling. Humbling. So I, I, I had to learn how to be a team sergeant, obviously. You know what I mean? Like, I not knowing at first, it was my way goes, and that's that. Which did not help anyone, myself included, did not help anyone. And I started to notice that I valued more team harmony than individual prowess. Does that make sense?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

A group that works together is usually better than two individuals that are just rock stars but can't work together. So I started learning to deal with that and try to take advice when I could, give my input. When I had, I didn't always, I wasn't always right, obviously, but I tried to be as level headed as possible because at the end of the day we just needed to do our job, do it well. Well enough that we all come back in one piece.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And have, you know, and conduct some successful operations. But ultimately leading a group of, you know, SF guys is not the easiest thing.

[A]

No. It's herding cats at some point.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

We've, we've some, some of our most difficult situations had to do with deciding on what our team T shirt design was going to be. That was not in combat. It stressed our team out.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And we were good friends.

[B]

It could be as simple as that.

[A]

It could be as simple as that.

[B]

I don't like your T shirt, therefore we're not going.

[A]

I'm not wearing that. Well, you didn't put any input in it, so I don't, I don't, I don't care.

[B]

I'll never wear my team's T shirt.

[A]

It's.

[B]

But it's, and it's because you'll know if you're messing up.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

They will absolutely let you know.

[A]

Let you know. Yeah.

[B]

There will be no question. Yeah.

[A]

About it.

[B]

And also learning to take that not personal. It's just like we need to adjust this because right now you're this up.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Not to take that personal takes work especially. Yeah. For me.

[A]

I had a team sergeant one time that said that really opened my eyes as a, as an, as an E7.

[B]

Oh.

[A]

I was a E6 at the time actually, but opened up my eyes for, for, for future leadership. And we were in Kiara West Iraq and the chow hall just made a rule that you had to, to bring weapons to the chow hall like, and to the gym. Like, you always had to be armed.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

And that pissed us off because we're like, we have gate guards. Like, I'm not bringing, you know, pistols to the, to the chow hall. Like, like, what are you forcing me to do this? And so we did what team guys did. We did stupid stuff and we were taking like a bunch of random foreign weapons off the wall and bringing them to, to chow. My team sergeant gets, gets wind of this and he goes, what are you guys doing? What are you guys doing?

[B]

Why Weapons of the chow.

[A]

Yeah, it's what? Right, Same. We're just taking weapons of the chow hall. Like. No, you're taking exotic, weird weapons to the chow hall. Raising questions Put the dishka down. Right now people are asking me, what. What are your guys doing? And when we told him, like, well, like, they're. We're just. It's. It's their rules. It's a stupid rule. And he goes, you guys, you're never happy. And that's fine. Like, that's, that is. I understand that. But if Data told you the rule is you can't take weapons to the

[B]

chow hall, you'd want to take it.

[A]

All of you guys would be upset, and you'd go, what do you mean I can't bring a weapon to the chow hall? We're in a combat environment and you'd all want to bring weapons to the chow hall. And I was like, wow, he's. He's right. Because I, he's absolutely right.

[B]

I felt very similar in. On one of the deployments. So there were a couple of Glocks and some Berettas. Now people wanted Glocks because everybody had Berettas, but I think had it been the opposite.

[A]

Right?

[B]

Yeah. And that, that does. As a team sergeant, that can get frustrating because now you're the one that has to like, hey, why is your team doing this? And, like, what are they doing now? You know. You know what I mean?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And. And a lot of times it seems like it's that way where, okay, they're making you do this. I want to do the exact opposite. Just on principle. I don't care what it is. I want to do the opposite.

[A]

But for some reason, he, he did a good job of, of that team sergeant, of, of. Of recognizing that and accepting that and then kind of playing within the rules of that, if you will, because it's

[B]

a smart way to do it.

[A]

That's. Those are the guys we hire. Those are the guys that they, they came over here because they don't like rules and they don't like stupid rules, and they, they want to. Yes, but, but that, that comes with its own problems at the same time.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And you. And if, if they weren't like that, then our ODAs wouldn't be as good as they are. And that's also a fact.

[B]

It's you as a team sergeant. My experience, if you try to go against the flow too much, it's not going to work for anyone. You have to work within that system, and if your team is doing this, try to steer them in any particular way. But ultimatums rarely work, especially with a group of guys like that. It's just not going to work. You're going to get something Way worse.

[A]

Right.

[B]

If you try to.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Put an ultimatum on there.

[A]

Yeah. It'll be hard to guess what their next step is, but they'll. They'll come together and they'll.

[B]

Something will happen, and you're not gonna like it. You can count on that. That's a fact.

[A]

You did something interesting and your next move in your career because you. You took. You took the long walk. Were you an E? I'm assuming you got your E8 at some point as a team sergeant or you. Any seven the whole time as a. I was.

[B]

No, I got my E8.

[A]

So you got. You have your E8. And I believe this. You know, I. I took the long walk as a. As a very senior E7 on my team that, you know, next in line to be team sergeant. I basically was the assistant team sergeant, if you will, which means I'm. I'm a made man on the team. Like, life got really easy for me. And then as a senior person, and you're even more senior than I was at that. Like, life's easy. It is not. It is not an easy decision to be like, all right, I'm going to challenge myself again, and I'm going to go become a student again. And even though I have an E8 rank, which is only one more in the military for you, I'm gonna go be a new guy on a team. And although the job can be as glorious as. As you want it to be, and it is. People will not. Will not take that step out of. Out of comfort. And that's. I'm not really judging them. I understand it. I understand it. Like, I mean, how. For you. How. How many special operation jobs do you want to try out for? How many times do you want to be tested? You know, and now you're getting. After a while, right now you're long in the tooth, but you made the decision. You're like, yes, I'll do it. Did that play any. Any role and into your decision making, it did.

[B]

I. I wanted to do that. As soon as I learned about it, I knew that I wanted to at least try to work at that level.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Right. I knew I wanted to.

[A]

So when was that on your radar? When. If you had to take.

[B]

When I was in the Marine Corps.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Yeah, when I was in the Marine Corps. And then I felt that at that point, I was like, all right, if I don't. Like, I need to. I need to go now. Yeah, I can't wait any longer. Not that I was waiting for anything specific, but I had some Things that, that I was already doing, like being a team sergeant and everything like that encounter drug. Everything was going well, but I wanted to do that next job.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So I sought them out. Then, you know, I went, how old,

[A]

how old are you at the time? When you're, when you're going to selection? Bad guess.

[B]

34 maybe?

[A]

I was gonna guess 35.

[B]

Yeah, 35 around there.

[A]

Take it. 34. Yeah.

[B]

When you start the math. Yeah.

[A]

When you start your train up, is, is your, is your age a factor at the time? Like, hey, I have to train, I have to train smart or yes. Or, or did you feel fairly bulletproof still? Like, I can, I can do anything that's required of me at any time.

[B]

I felt, I was confident that I can get into the shape that I needed to. Now I went twice.

[A]

Okay. I did too.

[B]

Yeah. I felt, and I'm grateful that they, yeah. They said, you know, come on back.

[A]

Yeah. But first one was a recce. Yeah. I didn't fail the first one. I, I was, I, I accomplished my mission.

[B]

Part of the plan.

[A]

Part of the plan. Okay, okay. That's my story. Okay. It's my story.

[B]

I'll go with that too. But, but I got in the shape I was, I was able to, I was lucky enough to get to be

[A]

given the opportunity to prepare because not everyone gets that. No, that's not to prepare or to come back. Correct. But actually I jumped the gun on that. But both are true. Not everyone gets a chance to prepare or, or come back.

[B]

That is correct. No, that is correct. So I did. And I think you and I were together at the beginning.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, we were.

[B]

Then I had to get surgery.

[A]

I, I, I wouldn't do it in anyone else's chair, so I, I wouldn't ask you to do it. You know, people are going to tune in and now they can want all they want, but you're not going to get details of, of the Delta Force selection process. Whatever is out there is, is out there. Right. We're not going to confirm it, but we can still, you know, generally talk about it. What was, what stood out to you in that, in that selection? Is there, is there anything that like, you go to the selection and you're like, I, I know I'm at a high performing unit. Did that happen to you in selection? That happened to you in otc?

[B]

It was that once, once in the organization. So there are a lot of individuals that make difficult things look easy.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And there is a high concentration of those individuals.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

At that unit. And that did not help my imposter syndrome at all.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Because it was difficult just to try to keep up because again, there are a lot of people that are extremely talented and they make it look easy.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I think that's why my time there was. Was a bit limited compared to others because it came a time where I was not keeping up. I just wasn't. I wasn't making decision fast enough. I wasn't moving fast enough. And that's a problem if I'm not at that level rightfully. So it's a problem.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So it was time for me to go. And I. But they took care of me, though, you know, they. I was like, look, we broke you. Now we're gonna send you somewhere, do some physical therapy, man.

[A]

We X, Me and X were on the same team for. For a little bit. I can't even guess how long we're on the same team together when we had. And the same troop as well. Longer than that. We had a good time. We had a good time. Yes. I mean, the, the, the stressors of that job. You know, you talk about imposter syndrome, I think everyone deals with that to some degree because you're in a unit like that. But the amount of tier one on both sides, guys that have had in that seat that have talked about imposter syndrome is a little bit surprising to me because I'd have never guessed it while you're in. And I'm pretty sure something you deal with at a personal level. But, you know, but you show up and you go to work and there's really not much of a, you know, a point to me to be made other than, you know, you say that, but you're by far not. Not the only person to tell me that. And I really wonder if we were able to do a poll there, like, how many more people deal with that.

[B]

I'd be curious about that.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It's. It's hard to. Again, hard to really describe the stress that job puts on you. Where. I'm not saying perfection is required, but it's expected. I know we're kind of splitting hairs there, but. But I think it's the best way to describe it.

[B]

It's. I think I heard it once someone say that taking imperfect people to do an imperfect job and ask them to do it perfectly.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It's. It's extremely difficult. Extremely difficult. And to try to do that all the time. Some people can do it. There are individuals that are. That have been there for well over a decade.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And they are fantastic. I was not capable of being at that level.

[A]

I think another good way to describe it. And what causes that pressure. Which is a good thing.

[B]

Yeah, Yeah.

[A]

I mean, it's. The unit. Wouldn't be the unit without it. I would never ask them to change as much as it. As much as it chews. Chews up grown men and spits them out. And ironically enough, those grown men wouldn't. Wouldn't have it any other way either. You know, you know what you signed up for. They. They tell you right off the bat, they're like, hey, this unit will take more from you than you will ever get from this unit. It is designed to. To grind you down. Yeah. And they don't hide it. Which. Which I'm glad. And it doesn't deter anyone.

[B]

No, absolutely.

[A]

Everyone hears it and knows it. But the difference is, I think on. On the white side is you have these. You're. You're on a schedule. I'm not saying the unit isn't on a schedule, but when you're on a schedule, let's take it to an oda. When you're back home and you're stateside until you're spinning up for combat, perfection isn't required of you. High, very high standards aren't required of you. You're not getting. No white side. SEAL team is getting a call in the middle night to go anywhere. No Green Beret team is getting spun up in two or three days to go, you know, to go anywhere. Everything was on a schedule and forecasted. Right, Right. But when you're at the unit 365 days out of the year, you're expected with within. We'll just call it a short amount of time to be at your highest level and deploy and have the weight of the nation on you and your team's shoulders. And it weighs on, as it should,

[B]

but it weighs on you because you have to perform at the highest level. On demand. Right on demand. Whenever that is demanded of you.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And that. It does. It takes a lot of work, and everybody does that work. And it is grinding. Like I said, some guys can be there for over a decade, other guys not as long, but it's still tough.

[A]

Here's another example that unless you're in the military, you don't. You don't understand how crazy this is. When you're on a HALO team on an oda, if you're going to do a HALO training mission into. Into an SR mission or a HALO into a hit just for training, that's a workup.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

And That's a long workup.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

You know, that's a Thursday night at, at work.

[B]

That's one of the things that I loved about it and I did and

[A]

I loved about it. You could just come in and be like hey, tonight here's, you know, you thought we were just going to come in and do some night shooting. Here's, here's what we're really doing. And you know, right into a, a full on full wall locker jump something. Yeah. With explosive breaching and you know, and a, and a, and a fry's X fill. I mean it, it takes, it takes no train up to do that because they expect you to do that through On Demand.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

On Demand.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

Was, was selection in West Virginia the most challenging thing you've ever done? Holistically?

[B]

Yes. For me. Yes.

[A]

Did OTC meet your expectations when it comes to standards, performance? What was asked of you or and expected of you?

[B]

The, what I'll say about that is the quality of instruction was the best I've ever seen.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

What was expected of you is the highest I've ever had. To provide the frequency at which you had to provide that standard, maintain that standard was tough. And I think that was one of the best training events I've ever been a part of. I was just grateful to, to, to have been a part of it.

[A]

You know, I mean this isn't a hit on, on the other, the other units by any means. There's, there's not a special operation unit out there that I don't have a massive amount of respect for.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And when it's time to, to do something that, that they are, they are the best. The world has the offer at their lane and I, everyone has a lane. But in my experience before going to the unit and it's not those organizations fault, it's really mine. I had in my mind this really high expectation. Take the Q course for example. Now when I graduated the Q course I was going to be Rambo, that I was going to be an explosive expert, that I was going to be a sniper, that I was going to be a CQB expert. That now you're going to get all those things as a Green Beret. But the Q course just lays a foundation of, of mastering the basics.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And then they're going to attach all those advanced skills onto you afterwards. And I'll make up a timeline. Within three years, maybe five of being a Green Beret, you will know all those things. But the difference was that the unit from selection to OTC and of course Squadron life. It met my. I had even higher expectations because it's, you know, it's the big leagues. And even with those greater expectations, it met and exceeded every one of them.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And in a weird way, I was a little tired of being, again. I just don't know a better way to say it. Disappointed.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

And, man, did they. Did they not disappoint.

[B]

No, it was. It's the. They. They don't miss.

[A]

They don't miss.

[B]

They don't miss.

[A]

Yeah. Take that any way you will, figuratively and literally.

[B]

Oh. Miss. No, it's. I was living my dream.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

When I was there, and that's no hyperbole. I was living my dream when I was there.

[A]

And to take it from an individual thing, because everything we're talking about right now is individually based. What I expected, what they demanded of me. But when you couple that with the guys around you, it. That's when it gets really special, even there in otc. Like, as you know, I spent a decade there, and there's other teammates, classmates around me from OTC that went to other places in the building, and I may not have seen them six times during that time period. Because you're just so busy.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

But those got their lifelong friends because of the quality of people they bring in, you know, into that program. And then like any other. What do they call it, a trauma bonding.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, it's not necessarily trauma bonding, but it's. It's. It kind of is. Yes.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

When you go through a certain degree.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Yeah. When you go through that experience with.

[B]

With shared experience.

[A]

Shared experience. It. I don't think I do the best job of keeping up with you. I don't do the best job of keeping up with a lot of people, but to really show how deep that bond is. You live in. Overseas now.

[B]

I live in Portugal. Yeah.

[A]

You could have called me and be like, brennan, I need you in Portugal tomorrow. I'm like, all right, I'll find out when I get there. That's how deep it is, having that shared experience at that level.

[B]

That is one of the many things that I love about the veteran community, especially the friends that. That. That I've met and made since I've been in the military from 2nd lar through recon, West Virginia for sure. And, you know, North Carolina. And then even through after, you know, into as an instructor. There are lifelong friends that. You're right. You know, hey, I need your assistance, and I need it.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Meow. Yeah. And somebody would go, yeah.

[A]

The. When you ended up when you left the unit, you went to Europe. Yep. Correct. You got set up with a job. Yeah, I believe, I believe. At your request.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

They were like, what do you want to do?

[B]

So that's how it was. Yeah, they. So.

[A]

And by the way, you. You won't say it and I feel like it's. It's not going to surprise anyone here. We talked about it yesterday. X has the. One of the few titles, if you will, of being the most liked guy in the unit. And that's hard to do.

[B]

Thank you. I appreciate that.

[A]

I tied you with one other person. Won't say his name.

[B]

Yes. Yes.

[A]

Tied you with one other person. And it's hard to do. There's. That unit is full of type A's. You know, there, there's a. There are times I call it the most. The world's most deadliest high school because that is accurate. It can be as much so it's just. It's just, it's just a part of.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Of. Of that environment and I, and I still.

[B]

It can get competitive.

[A]

They get competitive and competition can, can

[B]

breed animosity and it can be tense,

[A]

but it can be tense.

[B]

But at times like they're individuals that understand that a lot of it is not personal. It's just, that's just the way.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Some things are.

[A]

Yes. And I love it about the. It's one of their sayings that, you know, it's not personal, it's just business.

[B]

Yeah, it is.

[A]

But because of your personality, you just found. You just found a way to, to be liked. And I know that sounds maybe some. A weird thing to say but that the, the. The older I get, I look back and you don't get a chance to tell people this all the time. If I could redo my time, I, I would have been more like you personality wise. I. Because there's no, there's. There's no benefit to getting into arguments to. To some degree. I mean, appreciate that man. There are times and I think I could have been more judicious and, and, and what. What argument I decided to. To die on that hill on. Or, or I, or I'd have went around about it better and probably ended up having the. The same outcome. But the maturity level that, that there at the unit, even as a junior guy because you were still a senior guy. But it's not, it's not, it's not being senior. It's about your character. You're a very, very well liked guy and the building. And when you left was it Was a sad day. No one wanted to see you go.

[B]

I appreciate that, man. And it does. It feels good to hear that, you know, and, and I, I do appreciate that because that. Living that dream and then, you know, because that comes to an end for everybody at some point. That was one of the most difficult things to do. Just to know that, look, I can't. I can't work at this level anymore. Like, I am not there anymore. And it hurt, man. Yeah, like a lot. So I, I appreciate that.

[A]

Yeah. And. And you know that I'll share this story because, because it's true. And, and you know, it. You ended up getting the, the job that you wanted.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And you kind of need. Not everyone gets the go where. What do you want treatment. Some people just go, get out of here. Well, that's. You land wherever you land, but they didn't do that to you because we loved you. And we loved you so much. We tried to bring you back to your.

[B]

We heard about that.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Oh, yeah. I was with. Yeah. God rest his soul. Anders.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, me and Anders had, had talked about that and I was like, hell, yeah, let's, let's, let's bring X back. And we, we had a particular job that, that we wanted you to do that was, that was perfect for you. But you, you'd gone on to greener pastures and you were, you were happy with what you were doing, and we were happy that, that you were happy.

[B]

But that, that means more than you know, that, that that happened and that means more than you know. And I do appreciate that. Yeah, I did then. I still do now because it does. It means, it means a lot. And I appreciate that.

[A]

Absolutely. So what was the job that, that you wanted to do?

[B]

At first, I didn't know what it was. So the, so sergeant major was like, hey, look, we broke you. We're going to fix you.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Go down to Florida, do physical therapy for six weeks.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Go, you know, get your body right, get your mind right. In the meantime, we'll work on where you're going to go. So where do you want to go? And he gave me some time to think about it. I went and talked to my wife, to Jen, Jen, I love you, babe. She, you know, she told me we'd never lived. We've never lived overseas, you know. So we settled on Europe and I thought an instructor position would be good. Yeah. So I googled tactical courses in Europe and the International Special Training center was one of the search results. I looked it up and it's run by there's a US Command team, American. They have special forces soldiers teaching, like, combat marksmanship with rifle and pistol. They had sniper courses, planning courses, and medical courses. And I thought that'd be a good fit. So I went in and saw some major. I was like, yeah, this is where I want to go. He's like, what is this? I was like, I'm not sure, but I want to go.

[A]

Got a feeling.

[B]

He's like. He's like, all right, man, let me see what I can do.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And while I was down getting ready, they were going through the process, talking to whoever they needed to talk to, and made it happen. Like I said, they don't miss.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Whether they shoot a bullet or an email, they're gonna get it done. They're gonna get it done. So they, they hooked me. They took care of me, man.

[A]

So what that job ended up in tailing that you found out later, right? Yeah.

[B]

See that? So there wasn't a position open at the time, but they, they were able to convince the leadership there, like, hey, this is someone that. That would add value. And that's all I want is to add value. I don't want to be strained on anything. So I ended up going to the sniper section. And now they taught four different courses, completely different subjects in three different countries. It was extremely challenging just to even figure all of that out. So I had to learn to be an instructor. And being good at something does not mean that you can convey that effectively to someone that has no idea what you're talking about.

[A]

Absolutely.

[B]

And I had to work on that.

[A]

How long did you end up doing that for?

[B]

Five years. Five years.

[A]

And so what that job again, Like, I. God has a plan and nothing makes sense at the time, but when you look back, you can. You can see his fingerprint on. On things. And you end up getting connections with the. The special operations and long distance communities all throughout Europe.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Which leads into what you do now.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Did you know when you retired that was your. Did you have a plan to streamline into that?

[B]

So at first our plan was to retire and then go back to the States.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

The idea of becoming. Of starting my own company and trying to continue to teach came from a buddy of mine who I met while we were there. His name is Louis. He asked me to come up with a presentation on what a sniper instructor would be able to teach, to put together for a civilian company to teach German soldiers or American soldiers or any soldiers. And that's when I started thinking about it. I was like, I Can we can do this? You know, because my buddies, the. The guys that I worked with, their lifelong friends now. Sakis, Fabio and Ben, a German, a Greek and an Italian. It's a bad joke.

[A]

Yeah. It's the beginning of a joke for sure.

[B]

They went. They went to Vegas anyway, so like them, I still keep in touch with them. Lifelong friends, man. And that's how doing that job and then meeting my friends there, coming up with the idea or really settling on the idea that I can do this afterward. And I enjoyed it as well. Yeah, I enjoyed that aspect. Is that no longer being on a team, as much as it hurt, it's the reality. That's just the way it is.

[A]

You had a long team run between. Between the three services. You had a long team run.

[B]

I wanted more.

[A]

Nothing was sure. I know. It's never enough. It's never enough. The me and a past guest were talking about this, and it is a little bit the irony of it. When you're doing it for a job, of course that's when you want to be the best and know everything. But the truth is that's just not the reality of it. You know, we're asked to be good at so many things that's just not true. And then sometimes we get out and then we get to drill down on a certain thing and we end up learning way more than yes. And you look back like, man, I wish I knew this when I had a chance to apply it. But it's just, there's. There's just no way to be able to do that. Did that. Does that kind of happen with you as well? I'm assuming you know way more now about long range shooting. The one you did in recce with me. I.

[B]

There is. The more what I learned is the more you learn about something. The more I learned about something, the more I realized how much I did not know.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And that's. And that's important as well because overestimating our abilities based on like a little bit of information is not a good thing.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So yes. Being able to do that and being able to teach it also adds to your learning because the. The participants, even if they don't know what it is that you're doing, you can still learn something from them. Because I have.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Whether it's how to present information or a different technique, because it is. This individual did not know necessarily how to get into a position and did something weird, but it actually works. Wait a minute.

[A]

Let me.

[B]

Let me try this. You know?

[A]

Yeah. Which takes me to the Next thing I actually want to talk about some long distance stuff with you. Um and it's, it's really because you've become, not that you weren't but you've be definitely become more of a, of a subject matter expert on, on shooting. I think be a fun thing to talk about. So I'll ask you these questions now. No one, no one would would argue this. Back when we were the teams, I was a much better sniper than you. But now, now the student has become the sensei I remember.

[B]

Thank you. Thank. Yes,

[A]

I want to talk about the, the history of long distance shooting real quick. The from you can kind of start at Vietnam. You go back a little bit. I just don't know how much further back you could go. But Vietnam's a good like starting point if you will for of modern day. Of modern day long distance shooting. But the industry standard from for that was the 762. Only the 762. You take that from the 60s, the 70s, the 80s, the 90s and that was, that was the industry standard for long range shooting. I have a hunch it was because that's what the military use. And no one guesses second guesses. Their second guess is the military like that's what they use. Well that's it's, it must be the best. And what we found out somewhere in the 2010 and after time range that's, that's not necessarily the case because now when you get into long distance shooting there's you have a myriad of of of ballistics available to you. What do you think, what do you think triggered that questioning of, of the system or whether it be a questioning of the system or how we got to opening up what we thought once was just the industry standard to what we have now.

[B]

The I think part of that was trying to increase the range of lethality.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

When it comes to. Because the 762, that's 800 meters past that you're dealing in the transonic and then it slows down into subsonic. If you want to engage targets further out than a thousand yards, you need a higher caliber, you need a bigger casing, more force pushing that round through the air. And additionally how that round pierces the air is important as well. How efficiently it moves through the density altitude through, through the atmosphere or through the air to hit its target. And that's when like shoot competition shooting also helped with that as well.

[A]

Yeah, I, you talk about competition shooting like on the civilian side.

[B]

On the civilian side.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. I think for because there's no limitations except winning on the civilian side. Right.

[B]

And you come up with innovate.

[A]

Yeah, I think I do. I think there's more innovation on the civilian side and I think, I think the civilian competitions really put, put a push behind.

[B]

They definitely assisted and, and, and are responsible in a large part for that efficient development of those other better rounds you talked about.

[A]

Transonic or subsonic, just break down the, the, the flight path of a bullet. The, the three phases, if you will, what they are and why they matter.

[B]

Right. So when the bullet exits the, the barrel, it's in its supersonic phase. Right. It is going as fast as. Is going faster than Mach 1.2. And that is when it's at its most steadiest, when it's transitioning into the subsonic. When it's transitioning, it is in the transonic phase. It is starting to slow down. It is starting to lose some of its efficiency. And then subsonic is when it's at its slowest, continuing to slow down Mach 0.8 around there. And then those are the three phases, supersonic, transonic and subsonic.

[A]

In the transonic phase, does it still identify as a bullet when it transonics.

[B]

Yes, it does still still identify as a bullet. I believe so. I've asked around, but yeah, I usually

[A]

save those jokes for the life. But every now and again one slips out. Every now and again, one slips out. The. And I think it's, there's. We know so much more about shooting and we have ballistic calculators now with different coefficients in it. It's, it just, it's, it's exploded. You know, it's exploded from, from dope, you know, data that on previous engagement to just written books and, and more of an art to more of a science now. But it's still not a complete science.

[B]

No.

[A]

Which makes it fun.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Otherwise robots would just, would shoot it

[B]

or you just use a laser. You have to take wind into, into account. You just go the

[A]

what is with the 762 kind of being, you know, unseated as, as, as the best round.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

What is, what is your favorite round?

[B]

What are we doing?

[A]

I'm. In fact, that's, that's, that's the perfect response. I'm not surprised. I'm sure. Like, like, like, like you. I get asked all the time, hey, what rifle should I get and what caliber rifle should I get and what's. What's the best caliber? And they, and they, and that is, that is the question. But that, that's not we have to take a step back.

[B]

Right?

[A]

I mean, that's not. What are you, what are you doing with it?

[B]

Right?

[A]

You know, we can't, I can't just blindly.

[B]

Are you going to an urban environment?

[A]

Right?

[B]

You're going to Afghanistan?

[A]

Are you, are you rural? What are you shooting? Right? Right. What, what environment is it a very windy, windy environment. How, how big is the. What altitude? There's so many things that, that you really have to, to drill down into. So with, with you sniffing out my loaded question, I'll, I'll, I'll go, I'll go a little deeper. Let's. So let's just say hunting. So we're hunting and take it out. Not elk, not, not a large prey, but hogs, hogs, hogs, deer, Something similar to human size and poundage, if you will. But on, but on, but on four legs. We're, we're just, we're trying to, we're trying to put it down. So, because we could go with the sniper, you know, correlation. But you know, most of our listeners aren't going out hunting people, nor do I think I want them to, depending on their job. Maybe they're law enforcement snipers. I don't.

[B]

Law enforcement. Okay.

[A]

But yeah, so that, that puts us in a, in a similar parameter. 800 yards. 800 meters. And in that, that, that size of prey. What round are you going with?

[B]

I can go with 300 win mag simply because. And here's why. At around 800 meters, 762, it's entering into its transonic phase.

[A]

Yeah, it's right on the edge of it.

[B]

Exactly. And if I want to maintain the energy, I want to maintain that power at that range to make sure that it is through that range through the 800 meters, I would go 301 mag.

[A]

You know, it's funny you mentioned the 300 win max. I just said, you know, 762 was the round. But there was, there was a time. I don't, I don't, I think it, I think, I think I'd introduced before my time. But. So I have to make a, I have to make a, a stab in the, in the dark here. 90s, definitely after the 2000s. SF teams had the 300 win mag at, at, at their disposal, but it never really got traction. It didn't, it didn't unseat the, the 762 as the round. Even though it went further. It shot flatter. But the, the big problem with it was it was, it was hard on barrels.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And we didn't really have a good logistical program to replace those barrels. So they were awesome at first, but by the time I got there, most of the teams that still had them had shot out barrels and no replacement. So I never really got to experience the 300 wind mag out at early years. But it is, it's funny you mentioned that one because that one, that one had the ability to get a bigger name earlier on. It just did.

[B]

Had the, had the, the replenishing apparatus been. Been there. You know what I mean, had you been able to do it would have been standard and replace it then, then. Yes. But if, if you can't get a barrel immediately.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Then you're going to shoot it out.

[A]

Let's, let's come in for a second because that's. Because your answer because of that was. Was because of the 762. It was is. It was on its, its, its edge of supersonic flight at. At 800. Does. Does your answer change from 5 to 600?

[B]

762.

[A]

760.

[B]

I like 762.

[A]

Let's. Let's go out with it. 12, 1300 meters. 1200 meters.

[B]

So now we're pushing the, into the transonic of the 300 win mag. So 338 is where I would go.

[A]

Oh man, love. We had, you know, we've, we've. We've shot some three three eight rounds. Great, great weapon. The kicks like a. It does. It's. It's funny that's always subjective. Right. And it feels. I remember shooting the 338 feeling like it's just a big gun.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And it, and it kicks.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I've actually jumped the, the 33 8. It was, it was.

[B]

How was that?

[A]

It was

[B]

still here. That's good.

[A]

Yeah, I'm still here. But of course. And then we went to some environments that, that even it could hit. That thing will hit out at 2000. But, but just like you were talking about with the, the 7 6. I mean the 762 will hit at a thousand. But it does, doesn't mean it's. It's my, it's my ideal round. And so you step up to the 50 cal and then you go back to the three three eight. You're like, oh, this thing got a bad.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

So it gets real subjective. Correct. Real quick. And it's, it's an expensive, it's an expensive round. So I don't, I don't see it a whole lot in the civilian market, but man, is it, is it a good round? And there's a lot of. There's a lot of things available within that round.

[B]

Yes. Yes. The majority of the snipers that I've worked with in Europe primarily.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

That is typically their go to really 338. Yeah.

[A]

Do you remember what platform do they have a. A standard?

[B]

They have an assortment. It depends.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Because some, some countries, some of the. Even within the country, some units have better, better funding, a better budget than others. So it depends on what they. But there's a. An array of platforms.

[A]

Okay. And there's pretty much only one answer to this. There's two. Maybe push it out to 1500. What do you got?

[B]

1500? Yeah. 50 cal. I'll do 50 cal.

[A]

Yeah. It's about. It's about the. But if again, if we're hunting, there may not be a whole lot left of. Of that size animal. You know, that's not our problem. We're here. We're here to hit. We're here.

[B]

You can get some bacon strips.

[A]

So what is it. What is it that you. When you teach your classes, I'm sure they ask you to teach, you know, an. An array of things. What's. I'm. I'm guessing because it's still the industry standard at. At our Sniper Schools is the 308. The 762 round is. Is that primarily what you end up teaching if it's. If it's not ultra long, extreme long distance?

[B]

Correct. And I, I would. For teaching a basic sniper course, I would prefer to teach it in 762.

[A]

Okay. Why is that?

[B]

Because it is most susceptible to environmental factors. You would have to be more precise, more deliberate about your calculations. The wind will affect that round a lot more than it would a 300 win background.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So it would be easier for the students once. Once they understand shooting with 762. When they move to a higher caliber, it's just easier.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I don't want to. I wouldn't want to do the. The other way around. I would not want to teach unless you absolutely have to, obviously. 300 win mag. And. And then go down to seven. Six two. Because some of the guys would have trouble transitioning in that direction. So that's if I, If I had my say.

[A]

Yeah, no, I. I completely agree with that. For. For the people listening, how would you explain the difference? Just the. Not. Not why one's better, one's worse. The difference of shooting a seven. We'll bring in just a little bit 700 meter target. And you have. And know you have a. A 300 wind mag. A 260. Some a higher velocity round versus 76 to help people understand the advantages of why you want something that as opposed why it's better than the 762 even though they can both hit at at the same range. Just go through the. The, the differences of the two.

[B]

So the like the 6.5.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Same size, same diameter but it travels more effectively through the air. So it can reach ranges that the 300 wind mag can with the kick of 762. So it's more efficient moving through the air. So maintaining that energy at that level. Same with the 300 win mag. It's more forgiving. You would, you wouldn't be as affected by the, by the wind for example. That's the one thing that's, that that's always changing.

[A]

Why not why, why isn't it affected by the wind?

[B]

It has more power behind. It has more power behind. It's a heavier round. It just travels faster.

[A]

Right. It travels faster. So it has, it has less exposure from time. It leaves the barrel to target which has less time for when to push it as well as it's. It's going faster. So it would take more wind.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

Push it as well.

[B]

There's more force behind.

[A]

Right. And everything about that just adds on to it because it's moving faster. It's now a flatter shooting bullet. And so if you're wrong on your, if you're wrong on your calculation, it's a little more forgiving because it's it. We're not dropping it in exactly like this.

[B]

You're not lobbing it into the target.

[A]

Yeah. Here's something that is that I'm really surprised how many hunters don't know this. Like people that are, that are in the shooting competition community, they're well aware of this. I really thought this would, would catch more traction than it has. And that's truing. Tell us, tell us about truing. Truing your gun.

[B]

Right. So truing the weapon system. First you have to have a good zero, right. Which is point of aim, point of impact at 100 meters, let's say. So when you shoot, you dial it in. It's at zero. And your point of aim is exactly your point of impact. Now you put that in your ballistic software. Whether it's the Kestrel. When you give the Kestrel, you put a range and say target is now at 230 meters. The kestrel will provide an elevation hold. So if you dial that elevation hold and you miss, that is false. So you adjust accordingly. So if you hit High you come lower. If you hit low, you come higher. And then at the elevation hold where you actually hit that is true.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Therefore you put that true information into the Kestrel and then you continue to do that through the supersonic phase though, right?

[A]

Yeah. And so essentially what it's doing is when that ballistic calculator spits out this is your elevation for this distance, it's giving you a general correct answer. That's, that's generally true across all weapon systems of, of this, of these. Same, same barrel, same bullet. But at the end of the day, not every single gun even let's. They're all, they're all accuracy international three three eight. Every single one of them can be a little distance with a little different with its muzzle velocity.

[B]

Exactly. Exactly. And that's another thing I forgot to mention. When you're zeroing, it's a good chance to get to calculate that muzzle velocity using a magneto speed or a lab radar.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And that will give you a muzzle velocity that you can then input in the Kestrel.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Now with that information it'll give you a good estimate at your elevation holds. Sometimes they're accurate, sometimes they're a little off.

[A]

Right.

[B]

When they're a little off, you adjust your elevation until you're actually hitting point of a point of impact. Then you input that information, the Kestrel. And now that becomes true.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You continue to do that just up to the edge of your supersonic phase.

[A]

And why by the term true again really what it's saying is the first one was a guess. A very well educated guess.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

But when you actually shoot it, if it falls a little short or it goes over a little high, the first one saying is this is what should happen without knowing anything more about your gun. And then your gun is telling you but this is the truth of what happened. And then when you adjust those numbers into the cast rule now it's true to your gun.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

At least we'll call it that lot number of bullets. Exactly.

[B]

Exactly. Now that is important.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And you're right. You're absolutely right. That is important. It is true to your weapon system and the lot that you have.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Because the lot the idea being that they're most consistent when they're in the same lot. And consistence. Consistence provides predictability. And that's what you want the if

[A]

anyone, if not if you tracked a little bit we were talking about but one but. But want to know more, please go to YouTube. There's, there's tons of videos out there. It just hasn't really caught the mainstream for the people I've interacted with. So if you're a hunter or you're looking into and do shooting more accurately, take what we just said, if it interests you, go find out more about truing and you will thank us later.

[B]

There is, there is a lot of information out there.

[A]

Here's another one that gets thrown around. I think everyone knows the term. I don't think people really know what it is or, or when it's actually applied the, you know, in the, in the radio community, like when if something's wrong, it's one of those like, generous, like. And then we go, oh, it's solar flares.

[B]

Solar flares, right. Forgot about that.

[A]

And I think my equivalent in the long distance shooting community is like, oh man, I should have hit that. Coriolis effect, you know, sometimes it gets thrown out there some, sometimes it's a joke, but sometimes, you know, as, you know, serious thinking that, that did that play a part of it and we're not at a range or maybe even in a place in the world where that, where that matters. Let's talk about the Coriolis effect real quick. So what it is and right.

[B]

So Coriolis effect is the, is what's called the. Is what we use to call the left or right deviation of the impact of the round due to the Earth's rotation. Now that doesn't come into effect unless the round itself, unless it's time of flight, it's, let's say, two seconds or more. Chances are if you're missing the Coriolis is the last thing you need to look at. You need to look at the foundational stuff that you have is your weapon system level.

[A]

Right.

[B]

You know what I mean? Are you, do you have a good firing. Firing position?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Is your target on the same focal plane as, as your reticle? Those things, but Coriolis.

[A]

So the farther you shoot, the, the greater, the more it does it, the greater the impact.

[B]

Exactly. Because the Earth is moving underneath it.

[A]

Yeah. So it's crazy someone figured that out.

[B]

Well, first, can we agree that the Earth is round?

[A]

Yes. Okay. Yes, we can agree on that.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Just another proof that it's that it's round, but. Okay. All right. There will be one or two that disagree.

[B]

All right.

[A]

They'd be wrong.

[B]

We're good on that. Now imagine a platform, circular platform. Okay. At the center of that platform there is a pole and you have an individual standing closest to that pole, like maybe at an arm's length. Right. And you have an individual at the edge of that platform. Let's say the radius is 10 yards.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

10. 10 yards out. There's an individual at the edge of that platform.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

The amount of steps that it would take. The number is irrelevant, but let's call it 10.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

10 steps it would take for the person closest to the pole to do one complete circle. Do you think it would take 10 steps for the person on the outside to do one complete circle? No, no, it needs to. He needs to travel faster. Right, Right. Especially if that individual wants to stay in line with the person in the center. He would need to travel faster to do that.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Now if you were to that. That would be the globe. Okay. That's the North Pole. And the edge of the platform is the equator. We're spinning fastest at the equator. Let's say a thousand miles per hour or something like that. Okay. As you spin, you inherit the speed at which you're spinning.

[A]

All right.

[B]

So if you're in the northern hemisphere, and let's say. Let's go back to the platform. Yeah. The person closest to the pole is moving slower than the person at the edge. If that person shoots at the edge, the person at the edge will not be there, in theory when it travels because you're continuing to move.

[A]

Right. Let's take. Take it on this small step. Almost like a football, right? Yeah. You're going to have to lead the person. Yes, because I have to lead. Right.

[B]

But if you shoot directly at the individual, that. That target will not be there when it gets there.

[A]

Right.

[B]

So you would have to lead. Now, that causes the round to. It would from the shooter to shift to the right. From the Northern hemisphere to shift to the right because the target is moving faster than you are.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

The same thing applies if shooting from the equator north, because you are moving faster than the target, you in the round inherits that speed as well.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Think of if you're in a moving car and you step out of the car, you're not just gonna stop. You probably roll in the direction of travel because you inherit that speed.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Same with. With the round. You're attached to the platform as you're spinning, but once you release the round, it inherits that speed, but it is no longer touching the ground. So it is traveling as the. The ground is spinning underneath it.

[A]

And so the. The two takeaways. But two. Two things that are. It's that create its largest input into this is one shooting at the equator or closest to the equator, because that's where the Earth is the widest and essentially spinning the, the, the fastest. The fastest. But also, but, but just because it's doing that, just because you're at the equator, if you're shooting east west, that's a different story. It doesn't matter because it's. You're in line with the spin. But if you're shooting north south, it now matters because the platform is moving underneath you.

[B]

Now, even with your. With the spin or against the spin, that still has an effect as well.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

That was called OTBOs, I think E O T V O S. But with Coriolis, the simplest way to explain that.

[A]

Right. The Corios will have a will on north, south will have a left or

[B]

right deviation, depending on which hemisphere.

[A]

Depending on which hemisphere. But now for shooting east west, either directly against the spin or with the spin. Now it really has to do more with elevation or elevation proposed.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

Speed. Air speed versus ground speed.

[B]

Exact thing.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And it will impact or it will affect the impact. A little bit higher or a little bit lower.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Let me imagine you're for OTVOs for that effect. Good. Way for me to describe it is in the airports, you have those moving walkways. You're standing on that walkway and you're walking with it. You run faster.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Right.

[A]

That's a great example.

[B]

So let's say you're the bullet because you're inherit the speed. You will shoot that round and it will land. It will tend to land higher. It won't drop as much because it's going faster. It's been whipped by the speed. Now if you were to face the opposite direction and you're like you're moonwalking, you're going to travel less and in that direction. If you shoot from east to west, it would land lower. If you shoot from west to east, because we're spinning eastward, it would land higher. So the simplest way to look at it is if you're in the northern hemisphere, you're either going to land high and to the right or low and to the right, depending on your angle, what latitude you're on. If you're in the southern hemisphere, it's the opposite. High to the left or low to the left.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

However, having said that, Coriolis and anything like that is probably the last thing you need to look at.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Consider. That's the last thing you need to consider is the reason why you miss. It's most likely either wind or some other factor that you have control.

[A]

Right. It more than likely it's input that, that you put in the Gun.

[B]

It's not me. It's the gun.

[A]

It's the gun. Right? Yeah. You know, man, we could. We. In fact, we will. We're gonna. We're gonna talk a lot more about this over cigars and in the garage. I'm so glad you came out here and. And I got to hear more of your story. Trust me, this was. This was more for me than it was. Than it was for you. Where can someone reach you if they want? And. And I don't expect you to say this about yourself, but. But you already have in a longer form. And what people should. Should hear right now, when this is done, you're damn near one of one. Try. Laugh all you want. Thank you, man. Go out there in the community and find someone else that was in force recon, was a Green Beret, was at the unit, shot long distance, you know, went. Went into combat, went to Europe, all over Europe, you know, not just teaching them, but learning from them as well. And has the ability to logically explain things with the personality that you have.

[B]

Appreciate that, man. Thank you.

[A]

You always were. You were the whole man concept. I'm sure you've heard that term before, and you embody that. So if someone wants to hear more about all this real nerdy stuff, but really get a chance to pick your brain about it and make their team better, or maybe they just want to make themselves better, how they get a

[B]

hold of you, they can go to greystone-tcp.com or you can email me at lend off x graystone-tcp.com.

[A]

all right, that's Lindoff. L E N D O F. Exactly. All right, well, there's one more thing you got to tell us. You're not getting away that easy. Tell us a funny story. All right.

[B]

When that comes up is. So as a force Recon Marine, okay. I like to joke around a lot when I think it's appropriate. During one of the exercises as a recon Marine, I remember we were in some abandoned building, and one of my teammates. Now, in that abandoned building, there were. I don't know if they sold, like, old uniforms or something like that, but there was a cosmetic section, and there was a section that had wigs. One of my buddies thought it would be funny to grab the afro wig and give it to me.

[A]

Checks out.

[B]

So I took it. Yeah, I took it.

[A]

Right. Also checks out.

[B]

I don't want to offend him. I took.

[A]

You're a giver. Yes.

[B]

Then we're standing fast forward, I don't know, a few months we're standing in formation, and this is before we're going on a jump trip to Yuma.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

I'm in the Force Recon Platoon. And we're just doing a final formation because we have a new sergeant major. And right after that, we're going to load buses and get out of there. So I'm in the back of the formation and I just happen to have the afro wig in my cargo pocket. So I think it'd be funny to put the afro wig on and put my cover on top of it. So I'm in the back of the formation. Some of the guys start laughing. The platoon sergeant looks back to wonder, why is everybody laughing. He sees me and he's like, x, get in the front. Get in the front. You know?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So I move up to the front and I'm standing in a formation. I look like a struck match from, from, from. I'm just like. I'm just dark with a little afro over there. Like, what is that?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So the new sergeant major comes out, stands in formation, and he's like, I forget exactly what he said. But he wasn't happy, right? He wasn't happy. So he continued with his speech. And then afterward he's like, get the fuck in my office, all of you. And you, platoon. Sorry. I get over there. So I go and I put my little wig away and I run smart inside. Yeah, Yeah. I didn't think he'd think it would be funny if I walk in with it.

[A]

Like, hey, you know, just doubling down

[B]

on the joke, you know, but. So I went in, my platoon sergeant was already there. It was like, sergeant Major, it was just a joke, you know, all that. And he was joking. He was not happy about it at all.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

He was like, you force recon guys, you think you're a bunch of cowboys doing whatever the hell you want. It's disrespectful, this other stuff. And I walk in, it's like, you get the. In here, you know? So he starts yelling at me, but then he tells me to disappear. It was a good thing that we were leaving for about two weeks, right?

[A]

Yeah, yeah. Give a chance to simmer down.

[B]

Yeah, he simmered down. As we were leaving, the platoon sergeant's like, just, just don't do that again.

[A]

Now you know, Now I know. I mean, now you know. Now you know who you're dealing with.

[B]

I thought he had a sense of humor.

[A]

Nothing's worse than it really now than starting out that way. And it's 8:50.50. Could have started Out. Great.

[B]

It could have been great.

[A]

Yeah. Or now. Now you're starting out in a hole.

[B]

Well, it was leadership when I was at istc. When I was at ISTC is the ncyc. We started doing the Hawaiian shirt Fridays. We had a new commander and he needed a brief back on a course, and it was a Friday. Yeah. So I had myself and all the guest instructors.

[A]

Rules are rules.

[B]

Showed up on Friday, you know, with Hawaiian shirt, as we're giving the brief. This one was good, though.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

He was like. At first we walked in and he's like, what the. I could tell what's happening in his in, and I can see what's. What he's thinking. He's like, what is going on right now?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Who the. You know, what is this? We go to the brief, still trying to maintain professional. And he's like, look, had one of you guys been in uniform, then you would have been in trouble. But since all of you did it, this is the only time I'll allow it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Again, don't do that again.

[A]

I'm telling you, man, that the, that those are the things that, that made the, of all the, the bad things, you know, that happened, all the, the trauma bonding, you know, of just guys being guys that, that can somehow find out, find a way in the worst of situations to still have fun.

[B]

To make it fun. Yeah, exactly. It doesn't have to suck.

[A]

Doesn't have to suck. That's a choice. That's a choice. Absolutely. X. Thanks so much. I, I again, I cannot thank you enough. I appreciate flying all the way from Europe over here. Sit down with us and share your share your story with the Tier one podcast audience. Thank you, guys.