Fred Baker | Air Force Tier1 CCT | Combat Controller Selection and Joint Special Operations

Summary

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Tier1 Podcast: Fred Baker | Air Force Tier1 CCT | Combat Controller Selection and Joint Special Operations

Host: Brent Tucker
Guest: Fred Baker
Date: December 15, 2025

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Episode Overview

In this episode, Brent Tucker sits down with Fred Baker, a veteran Air Force Combat Controller (CCT) and former member of the 24th Special Tactics Squadron (2/4 STS), the Air Force’s Tier 1 unit. They discuss Fred’s journey from a military family through his grueling pipeline training, the nuances of the CCT mission, unique elements of Air Force special operations, the evolution of joint special operations, and the realities and misconceptions of Tier 1 service. The conversation provides an insider’s perspective rarely accessible to outsiders, balancing technical details with personal anecdotes and candid reflections on leadership, operational tempo, culture, and legacy.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Origins and Upbringing

• Military Childhood: Fred grew up in a military family—both parents in service, which shaped his worldview and sense of inevitability about joining. (06:00)
  • “My dad was in special operations since the beginning... Vietnam, Cold War. He was actually tasked to do Desert One” — Fred (05:46)
• Decision to Join: Baker wasn’t pushed but felt drawn by legacy and environment; initially considered the Army (Rangers), but a family connection introduced him directly to the world of Combat Control. (08:11)

2. Combat Controller Pipeline

• Complex, Demanding Training: The CCT pipeline is long and intricate—basic, selection, SERE, air traffic, airborne, Combat Control School (CCS), then advanced skills including dive and HALO.
  • “It was guaranteed—HALO and scuba and airborne. Like, you have to have it to be a controller” — Fred (14:01)
• Value of "Ignorance": Both reflect that less knowledge made the journey psychologically easier; knowing too much can create preconceived limits. (10:22)
  • “That ignorance is actually a blessing, I think for myself” — Fred (10:24)

3. Diving and Halo School Experiences

• Physical and Mental Endurance: Dive school is infamous for being emotionally grueling, but Air Force candidates often excel due to youthful fitness and specialized preps.
  • “We were all 19-year-old idiots... we’d been training for almost a year... just running and swimming.” — Fred (16:01)
• Medical Hurdles: Fred shares a personal health scare—a heart arrhythmia discovered during pre-scuba, remedied by a “catheter ablation” (27:07), then picking up training without recycling fully.
• Unique Cultures: Vivid anecdotes about the culture of dive school, single man/two man comp stories, interplay with SEAL/Army instructors, survival through camaraderie and humor. (34:42–38:07)

4. The Combat Controller Mission: More Than Dropping Bombs

• Air-to-Ground Integration: The CCT’s specialized skill isn’t just calling airstrikes—it's orchestrating air-ground operations: controlling airfields (surveying difficult runways, logistics), airdrop support, integrating airpower.
  • “It’s basically anything that needs that air to ground integration... not just dropping bombs” — Fred (17:02)
• Surveys and Logistics: Explains how CCTs survey and prepare remote/Austere airfields, calculate load-bearing capacity, and coordinate landings in extreme or unconventional places.
• Professionalism vs. Myth: Countering Hollywood/cowboy myths about SOF, emphasizing meticulous planning and the career-long specialty of precision air-ground integration.

5. Realities of Combat and the White Side vs. Tier 1

• Deployment Experiences: Early deployments included working closely with 3rd Group (Army SF) in Afghanistan (51:08), then 5th Group in Iraq, learning in high-stress environments and accelerating operational proficiency.
• Operational Tempo: Striking difference in speed and approval tempo (“command moves fast... could be in the chow hall, then you need to be on a bird in 45 minutes”), compared to conventional special forces units. (52:28)
• Rules and Friction: Frustrations with bureaucracy and approvals on the "white side"; workarounds and risk tolerance among high-performing teams. (55:36)
• Transition to 2/4 STS: Fred took the time to build his operational resume before going for selection—recognized the need to “get faster,” both physically and in mission planning. (59:24, 61:37)

6. Unit Culture, Imposter Syndrome, and Drive

• Confidence and Humility: Despite “imposter syndrome,” Fred describes being perpetually driven by a sense of not being “top 1%,” knowing that both quiet confidence and self-doubt can fuel relentless improvement.
  • “To this day, I still have imposter syndrome... I just didn’t feel like I was the top 1%... just took everything in and got through it” — Fred (62:23)
• Quiet Professionals: Air Force SOF maintains a strong ethos of humility, internal drive, and crediting the team. (90:06)
• Rotational Challenges: Air Force controllers, compared to SEALs or Green Berets, often hop between units, frequently forming new bonds and proving themselves in new environments (76:49).

7. The Joint/Tier 1 Community: Differences and Similarities

• Navy vs. Army Tier 1: Navy groups are “light, fast, sneaky,” Army units pack heavy for firepower, but both are relentlessly capable and train constantly.
  • “In the 10,000-foot view, they’re both very much the same... always training, all the time, all year” — Fred (68:55)
• Deep Integration: Air Force CCTs get “a deep look at both of us”—working back and forth with both Army and Navy elements, a rare level of cross-pollination (67:26).
• Unilateral Operations: While rarely thought of as “unilateral,” 2/4 has a legacy of CCTs running missions alone (e.g., single-man airfield setup in Desert One), enabling the joint force. (72:40)

8. Evolving Roles, Institutional Challenges, and the Future of Air Force SOF

• Expansion and Redesignation: Discusses the conversion of Special Operations Weathermen into versatile Special Reconnaissance roles—emphasizing adaptation and value to joint force (79:57).
• Institutional Tension: A recurring theme is how the broader Air Force often misunderstands or undervalues its ground SOF, lacking awareness of CCT/PJ impact unless directly affected by their actions.
  • “There’s a ton of Air Force that doesn’t know anything about us.” — Fred (88:02)
• Need to Adapt: Fred stresses the need for “constantly growing and improving our fighting position.” Stagnation risks obsolescence as sister services develop their own JTAC, recovery, or recon capabilities. (82:58)
• Quiet Professionalism vs. Recognition: Willingness to remain “quiet professionals” can be to the community’s detriment; calls for more institutional support and public understanding—done in a way that honors the community ethos. (90:06)

9. Life After Service & Teaching

• Transitioning to Civilian Life: After leaving, Fred co-founded a distance shooting school, focusing on realistic fundamentals and innovative carbine/sniper training (97:04).
• Advice for Shooters: “Your rifle is way more capable than you are,” advocating honing skills before investing in hardware upgrades. (97:11)

10. Memorable Anecdotes & Lessons

• Dive School Humor: Tales of being the “comic guy” at dive school, instructors with “fanny packs, salt and pepper hair,” and mishaps during training events. (38:07)
• Funny Story – “Big Dick Six”: Fred recounts accidentally leaving his phone named “Big Dick Six” from an outstation when connecting at headquarters and getting called out for bandwidth use—a testament to SOF's irreverent humor under stress. (101:25–103:49)
• Imposter Syndrome (Openly Shared):
  • “I never talked about it when I was in... Now I’m sure I have talked about it.” — Fred (65:19)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments (with Timestamps)

• On CCT Specialization:
  “It’s basically anything that needs that air to ground integration... not just dropping bombs or putting aircraft on austere airfields.” — Fred (17:02)
• On Training Ignorance:
  “That ignorance is actually a blessing, I think for myself... there was no expectation. Like, all I’m going to do is not quit.” — Fred (10:24)
• On Operational Speed:
  “They could be in the chow hall and the next thing you know, you need to be on a bird in 45 minutes—with the plan, with contingency plans... that gave me a really good perspective in the beginning.” — Fred (52:28)
• On Quiet Professionalism vs. Visibility:
  “We still are—nobody wants to say these words—very much quiet professionals. I hate talking about myself. I hate self-promoting. But I want my guys to have all the credit.” — Fred (90:06)
• On Cross-Unit Differences:
  “The Navy’s really, really light and fast... then the army, you’re gonna make it, like, they pack heavy bombs, heavy ammo, heavy everything.” — Fred (70:03)
• On the Need to Adapt:
  “If we’re not adapting and we’re not growing... they’re going to figure it out that an ODA can just create a JTAC group... It’s easier to hit the go button and get one of those. But if they took it seriously, it makes sense to have a guy who’s doing that job for years.” — Fred (82:58)
• On Humor in SOF:
  “My best friend... kind of adopted that call sign, except he changed it to Big Dick Six... and so I named my phone Big Dick Six. Hilarious. Except I didn’t change it when I went overseas.” — Fred (102:36)
• On ‘Imposter Syndrome’:
  “To this day, I still have imposter syndrome... I just didn’t feel like I was the top 1%... just took everything in.” — Fred (62:23)

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Important Timestamps for Key Segments

• Intro & Early Military Influence – 05:38–10:22
• The CCT Pipeline – 12:02–14:52
• Dive School Discussions & Anecdotes – 31:06–38:07
• Discussion of Air-to-Ground Integration & Airfield Surveys – 17:02–24:05
• Operational Speed: Tier 1 Pace – 52:06–52:40
• Transitioning to Tier 1 / Selection Realities – 59:24–63:20
• Imposter Syndrome & Motivation – 62:23–65:40
• Joint SOF Unit Differences – 67:26–70:42
• Special Recon Weather Redesignation/Future Outlook – 79:57–83:50
• Air Force SOF Visibility & Leadership Dynamics – 85:15–88:06
• Podcast's Humorous Close – "Big Dick Six" Story – 101:25–103:49
• Final Reflections on Quiet Professionalism – 90:06–92:13

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Episode Takeaways

This episode provides an authentic, nuanced view of the Air Force’s elite CCT mission and its place in the broader special operations community. Fred Baker’s blend of humility, humor, and professional insight exposes listeners to both the technical rigor and human side of high-level SOF service. Through detailed discussion and memorable storytelling, the podcast demystifies the unique capabilities of Air Force Tier 1 operators and offers timeless lessons on professional philosophy, adaptability, and the persistent value of being a “quiet professional.”

Transcript

[A]

I think last time I saw you was maybe on a catwalk in a shoot house at. Right outside of Fort Bragg.

[B]

That or Blackwood.

[A]

Oh, probably shot show.

[B]

Yeah. The Circle Bar.

[A]

You know, actually. Yeah. It's got to be that.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You going to shot show this year?

[B]

Trying. Yeah. Probably. Most likely. Yes. Which means.

[A]

Yes. What is it about shot? I get it, but because I do the same thing. What is it about shot show that everyone goes to but no one really wants to go to?

[B]

I don't know.

[A]

So it's always a good time of sorts. But every year, like you go to shot show, I'm like, yeah, maybe.

[B]

Yeah. Because it's. It's just so quick and overwhelming. I just don't know. I don't know how to look at it because we do get some work done there.

[A]

It is a necessary evil to some degree.

[B]

Yeah, we. You can send in many emails and texts as you want, but when you got them face to face, they can't ignore you. But yeah, I truly enjoy seeing folks, man, I saw so many guys that hadn't seen in years. The, the Navy, the army and stuff. And yeah, like, man, I'm glad you're still alive.

[A]

For some of us, post military has been the most.

[B]

Yeah, it's most dangerous part. Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

All right, you ready? Let's get into it. Welcome to the Tier one Podcast.

[B]

This is amazing.

[A]

Dude, check this out, right? Welcome back to the Tier 1 podcast. I am your host, Brent Tucker, owner of FRCC. Go to FRCC Shop and use promo code FRCC15 to get 15% off the world's best coffee, cigars and bourbon. I'm also part owner and Human Performance TRT. Go to hp-trt.com for all your testosterone and peptide needs. And for more exclusive and behind the scenes content, feel free to join the Patreon at Tier 1 podcast and this episode is brought to you by Elevated Operator. At Elevated Operator, they believe in mental clarity, balance, energy and deep rest. Shouldn't be hard to find. They should be part of daily life. That's why they can craft premium American made herbal wellness products. From mood boosting tablets like Battle Buddies to energizing and calming teas for day or night use. All made in the USA from organic ingredients. As a veteran founded brand, they're committed to not only quality and transparency, but real results. Check them out@empled operator.com and use code tier one to save 15% off your first order today. I also use their products. I use their Ceasefire nighttime tea almost every night. Helps me get to sleep and helps me wake up not groggy. With us today, we have air Force Tier 1 veteran Fred Baker. Welcome to show Fred.

[B]

Appreciate it.

[A]

You've been a. You've been requested by the audience many times, so hopefully. Why you know, I don't. From my last podcast to this one. You're our first tier one Air Force operator, so no. No pressure.

[B]

Made another selection.

[A]

For. For we kick off. I want to say thank you for. For making the trip sweet. That there is from Brotherhood Blades. You probably have a few knives, but. But as I say every time I've, I've never. I've never met a guy who, who got a. Another high quality knife and was like, oh, I don't need another one of these.

[B]

That's super awesome.

[A]

That's got the Tier 1 emblem in there to. To commemorate your time and the largest podcast you've ever, ever heard of. Ever.

[B]

Echo that.

[A]

There's another one for. He's gonna. We're just gonna shower you with gifts. It's kind of like you're back on the. It's kind of like you're back on the team as. As an Air Force guy. Just. Just getting. Just getting a whole bunch of high dollar items for free that you don't have to turn back in.

[B]

It is my birthday on Sunday, so.

[A]

Yep, that was theirs from Cloud Defensive.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

It's got a tac light in there for you.

[B]

Sweet.

[A]

Big, big fan attack lights. If anyone's ever been to one of my tactical classes, you'll hear me go on and on about tac lights.

[B]

You kind of see what you're shooting at, right?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

And that's. That's from Tasty Gains.

[B]

Awesome.

[A]

Some. Some creatine. No one wants a. Who wants to travel around with powdered creatine and a shaker bottle?

[B]

I'm glad you gave me this because I forgot mine.

[A]

There you go.

[B]

I'm just gonna eat 20 of these tonight before we go to bed.

[A]

There you go. That's. That's. That's the thank yous for. For coming the show.

[B]

No, man. Absolutely. Appreciate it.

[A]

Let's. Let's get to it. We'll do this chronologically and we'll. We'll get to. To our history. Obviously this is. This isn't my. This is not my first time meeting you, but we've, we've been worked together in the past. But what. Let's. Let's go all the way back to the beginning. When did you. When did you join?

[B]

November of 2000.

[A]

And what was. Where were you from? What Was your process for joining?

[B]

Yeah, I mean, I lived all over the place. My dad was military, my mom always. My mom was military as well. That's how they met over in Germany. And that's where I was born over in Landstuhl. And then I just been surrounded by this community. My dad was in special operations since the beginning. Did Vietnam, Cold War. He was actually tasked to do Desert One, but that particular side of it fell out.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

I don't know if you ever seen the jet propelled C130s you ever seen.

[A]

Yes. Yeah.

[B]

So he was. He was tasked to be one of those pilots. Was going to fly into the stadium on that thing.

[A]

Really.

[B]

But they actually have it on YouTube. One of them crashed in training, so three to get two. That third one crash. They. They canceled that whole thing. So.

[A]

So your dad was an Air force pilot?

[B]

Yep. MC130s, through Vietnam, cold War, all that stuff.

[A]

That's. So that's. So is Air Force or nothing for you or do you. Did you look at all of them or you always like. Yeah, that's what my dad did. I'm gonna follow his. In his footsteps.

[B]

No, because much like everyone else out there, I had no idea what combat control or anything that.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Was. I just knew from a very young age that I needed to do the military thing. I don't think it was very much like I desired it or whatever, which I did.

[A]

Right.

[B]

But it just felt like it was there. It's in the DNA.

[A]

Was it something that he pushed you to do? But by any means. It was just.

[B]

Neither one of my parents pushed me to do anything. Yeah, they encouraged me to do stuff, but no, I never heard. Never heard that ever.

[A]

Right. Or. How old were you signed up?

[B]

I was 18. I was a. An older. Whatever grade. Senior.

[A]

Right.

[B]

So I was 18 when I signed up. And they delayed me a few months. I wanted to go right in. They delayed me after graduation till November. And so I just. Yeah. Went in right there and I went in straight in. Combat control. I can't remember what the. The term was for, but I had the contract and everything.

[A]

You think. Did it surprise your parents at all that you were joining? Did you communicate that with them or.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, they knew. I mean, I. All my friends were. Were joining the Marine Corps, going to Naval Academy. I had army recruiter sitting in my kitchen about to sign away for going to Rangers.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And my dad was like, why don't you take a wrap off? Let's. Let's talk about this. All right. And next thing I knew, I Had a combat control chief master sergeant in my house talking to me about what it is they did. Yeah, he was actually one of the guys that jumped in the Panama, Grenada. One of the Mad Jack was his name.

[A]

What that. I feel like you had. You were able to have a combat controller come talk to you before signing up. I feel like your dad probably had something to do with that.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So not, not everyone gets that. Again, you don't know exactly what you're getting into. But just man, for, for him to be able to pull that string, you know, and already be in and be like, hey, I can, I can't make all your decisions for you, but I can help you.

[B]

I mean he, he worked with him his entire life. He's. All of them were friends, et cetera. And honestly a lot of comments are like, hey, figure out, do a lot of studying on which because, you know, should I be a seal, Should I be sf? You know, go online and do. There is an amount of studying that will actually get you to fully understand what you're getting into.

[A]

That's, that's. There's a lot of truth to that. There's a little in between and, and you'll, you'll understand what I'm saying here in a second. Know when we joined in 2000, 2001, I mean, I'm not. We're not so old that we didn't have the Internet, but we didn't. Not all the information was at your fingertips. And even though we had the Internet, it wasn't f. It wasn't filled with people that talk. And with the information that we have today.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And at the. There's no substitute for talking to someone who's done that job. But the young, the young men and women joining today have really have no reason to be uninformed.

[B]

Correct.

[A]

Although it still happens. That's a travesty.

[B]

Over informed.

[A]

Yeah. You could absolutely get over. Absolutely. You can get, you can get inundated with, with information because not. Because not all of it is true or not all of is completely true. And then when you start watching all these all and gathering all this information.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like well, well, which one is it?

[B]

I think it's actually it was beneficial for us because. Because we really didn't have any idea what we're getting into. And so there was no expectation, like, all I'm gonna do is not quit. And but if you knew like, well, this event, it actually ends in 24 hours. Cause I saw it on Discovery Channel, this only goes 24 hours. And then at the 25th hour, you're like, this one is gonna end. And so, like, in your mind, you're like, you know what? Maybe I'm gonna quit because I didn't. So that ignorance is kind of actually a blessing, I think for myself, I.

[A]

100% agree with that. In fact, even it's a fine line. Like dive school, for instance. I want to know about the events in dive school as far as what are the standards. I want to be prepared before going. But I didn't ask a lot of questions about dive school in general, and I completely agree with that. I went. I went in to almost every school or selection. What I felt like was the bare minimum. And. And I was. And I was fine with that. And for that same reason, I think some people who know too much just get it in their mind this is what's going to happen. When it doesn't. It kind of. It jolts them.

[B]

Yeah. It screws you. It works out for me because I'm extremely lazy and I hate school. I don't like studying or any of that. So going on the Internet and studying, I'm like, yeah, screw it. I'll just. I'll figure it out tomorrow when I'm 8ft underwater.

[A]

So the.

[B]

You.

[A]

Where'd you go to basic training at there?

[B]

It's in San Antonio. All air forces.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

In San Antonio. Yeah.

[A]

And from there you went right into the. Into the Pipeline.

[B]

Yeah. So, yeah, the major base there. And I forget what it's called. Whatever. Who cares? Nobody cares. But right across the street is there. There's an annex there, and that's where I think it still is, but that's where all STS guys were going to start their initial training.

[A]

And what's SCS stand for?

[B]

For the Listeners Special Tactics Squadron.

[A]

And I mean, you guys have a notoriously long pipeline. How. How long was. Was the pipeline when. When you were there? If it. Roughly.

[B]

So I went over there in January across the street, and then I finished Combat Control school in December, I believe I want to say. Okay, so, yeah, that was a while.

[A]

And what's. What's the pipeline consist of? Do you guys call it in phases or what. What. What do you guys.

[B]

I don't know what schools or blocks now they've actually changed. So go back to the beginning. Like now, I believe STS has its own basic training.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Because the hardest part for basic training in the Air Force was trying to.

[A]

Stay in shape for what's next for you guys.

[B]

Yeah. But so supposedly now I believe they have their own flights so they can Maintain their fitness and all that. So it works out then. But yeah, then it was. You go across the street, you do about a month of selection, if you will. A lot of pool time runs all this stuff. And then from there you go to sear School, I believe, and then you go to air traffic control school and then you go to basic Airborne and then your final is combat control school where they put it all together.

[A]

Okay. The. It's. I'm tell. It's. It's even. Even though I've worked with you guys both on the white side and at the tier one level, you know, most of my career, I don't know much about. About your pipeline. You got, don't you guys come out dive and Halo as well through, through that program?

[B]

Yeah, yeah. So that was a major reason why I chose, you know, Air Force in.

[A]

General for the badges.

[B]

Yeah, it was guaranteed. Guaranteed. You're have Halo and scuba and airborne. Like you have to have it to be able to be your 3 level, 5 level combat control PJ.

[A]

When do they squeeze that into the pipeline?

[B]

So yeah, you finish combat Control school, get your beret and then you go down to Florida in herby and at the time it was called advanced skills training and that's when you do all your upgrade stuff.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Air Force has all this like levels three level or a bunch of wizards five level. For us to deploy, we had to be five levels. So we graduate Combat Control School. Your three level. Technically you deploy, but you can't do too much. The advanced skills training gets you to your five level and that's where you go to Halo dive and then you do a lot more air traffic control stuff. You do airfield cheesers, alternate insertion distractions, all that kind of stuff.

[A]

The. Did you not go to Key west at that time? You did the one with the dive school in 05. It's crazy. It was 20 years ago.

[B]

Yeah, I went home April of 03.

[A]

We were the, we were the first all army class. So you guys had just broke off and, and did your. Did your, your own, your own dive school. So even though, but even though I didn't go to dive school with, with any of you guys, it was, it was well known that even though, you know, it's, it's an especially Army Special Forces owned the dive school. We had, you know, a little bit more seasoned operators coming through that dive school. But that's, that actually can work for you and against you to some degree because. Because you're busy doing your job and then you have to, then you have to get in sorts, the best, not necessarily the best shape of your life, but you have to get in water shape to go to that school. And it was, it was well known that when you guys came to that school, for the most part you're very young and you're very in shape and that you guys would just come through and crush that school.

[B]

And very, very stupid too. I felt, yeah, I felt really bad for the army folks there because yes, we were all 19 year old idiots.

[A]

You've been training for this since, I mean not every day but you, you've been training this for, for almost a year. Like you know, you know what, what's at the, at the end of this? And you guys come in, it's just running and swimming.

[B]

So we show it's. Yeah, even. Even. So we still had to do a four week pre scuba. So you're doing all this stuff for almost a year, then you go down to AST and you do four more weeks of pre scuba, which really hounds on the specifics of dive school.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And then so yeah, at the end of that like you're ready to write.

[A]

This thing the back up a little bit. You know, just as far as the, the job of combat controller. Obviously everyone knows you guys drop bombs. It's what you do and you do it better than, better than anyone. But what all does the job entail?

[B]

So it's basically anything that needs that air to ground integration type thing. So whether it's air drops or dropping bombs or putting aircraft on auster airfields or not even and putting on somebody else's airfield, anything that needs that integration between the air and ground, stuff like that, that's what we're getting in. And to include maybe surveying airfields, working with the rangers a lot to do airfield seizure missions and then yeah, dropping bombs is the thing that just I think like Somalia is what kicked that off is like wow, these guys are really good at that. It's like. Well yeah, because we talk those, that's our job is talking to those people. Naturally that would kind of flow under it.

[A]

Yeah, I think just to dispel what, what if you've never been a part of it, never seen it. Some people think of that. Well, I mean how, how hard can it be? You just, you talk to the, you talk to them, you tell them where, where you're at. You tell them where the bad guys at. It's, it's pretty simple and to some degree it can be that simple. But it was always really just astonishing to me to watch you guys work to Control two, three, four different aircrafts at different levels and make sure one. Generally speaking, if you need your support, you need it right now. So you want someone that can get through that as accurately as possible and as quick as possible. And that is a job all in itself. And we learned that early on in the war, unfortunately, that there's a reason why that's someone's sole purpose.

[B]

Yeah, it makes sense to have that as a specialty duty, if not a career field. It takes a lot of. It can be easy to do. I will say that it can be easy to do, but if you're not doing your job, which is always preparing for what's to come next, like if we're walking into a target, if I'm just walking along watching my sector and not pre planning what could happen or what is about to happen at the target and have that stuff set up because like you said, seconds count with that, then I'm not doing my job. So yeah, it can be easy. And I can just be a lazy turd out there walking around them. If something happens, I can start working it.

[A]

It's like, in fact, I just got done training another SWAT team and this saying is true. It's true to a lot of things. CQB is really easy and can be really easy. Just left, right, left, right, shoot what's in your sector and run to the next room. But if you want to do it at a high level, or if you're going to do it at the worst time at your hardest day with the hardest mission set, it can easily not be that easy. I can make it really easy and I can make it really complicated real quick. And I think that's the same. The same thing with you guys.

[B]

Yeah, you got to be ready to hit booby traps over the place with six armed men and your wife and kids are in the room. Like that could happen.

[A]

Yeah. You talked about airfield surveys and I was sometimes get caught up. I know what that means because we talk about it, but it seemed, you know, it seems a little bit general or foreign to people at first. What's an airfield survey?

[B]

So we're either looking at an already pre established airfield, like there's all sorts of ones actually in Afghanistan as well in Africa that the Russians and the Chinese and they're old and so we have to learn about those. What can. What that actual structure can take in regards to aircraft landing on it, the dimensions. And then also with austere airfields where we're just looking at a dirt road or open field or whatever it is. We have to go out there and actually measure it out, make sure it can fit certain aircraft. We had to park them somewhere. How many landings can this ground actually take? Which we have to actually, you know, I'm sure they have a better system now. I hope they do. We have to take this rod and just hammer this thing in there. And it's a certain, the weight is a certain amount that's specific. And you do these calculations and all right, this spot can take 25000 landings or whatever. And some people are like, oh no, we need 250001 in order to land a C17 or something. So there's a lot that goes into it, obstacles on the side. So many areas have to be clear, et cetera. And then, and then, yeah, we survey what's there, not what we want. And then we show them like, this is what it can handle. Yes. No. Or we gotta make improvements to it.

[A]

You know, when I figured that, when I learned that part of your guys job, it just another thing that you realize how professional the US military is. Because if you don't know any better, you just watching it on a movie, just, you know, pull that out of there and you just in the middle of the night see a C130 land in some officer environment and you know, guys offload and going like, well, that's, that's what we do. We just land planes wherever we want. I mean that's a recipe for disaster. We don't like the amount of planning and preparation. What goes on logistically and before anyone ever gets there is, is insane because of course you guys could, could you imagine not doing anything like that? Not understanding what you're landing on?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And, and just having a C130, you know, sink into it and go end over nose. Yeah, that's just. You can't, you can't have that.

[B]

Yeah, the, the amount of propaganda or whatever is out there now that, that, you know, soften general is a bunch of criminal, you know, shoot from the hip type of dudes or whatever.

[A]

Yeah. A bunch of cowboys.

[B]

Yeah. So much planning and preparation goes in this stuff like this. And, and yeah, one little mistake like that wheel goes off the aircraft because it hit a spot that wasn't supposed to, that you didn't look at. And now you have millions of dollars lying on the airfield. And on top of that, the mission's canceled.

[A]

Right. And, and that's of course it's, it's easy to put that with like dirt landing strips. That, that one may seem a little Bit more obvious. But people don't realize, just like you said, whether it be other airstrips, foreign airstrips, civilian airstrips that are, you know, in someone else's country, that doesn't mean it's going to take a C17 landing on it.

[B]

No.

[A]

You know, and so it doesn't look obvious that, hey, that's. Well, it's a Runway. Planes land on runways. But not all planes land on all runways.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, we've landed planes in people's neighborhoods. You know, obviously we had authorities to do. So the cops knew about it. I don't know if they notified the neighborhood, but yeah, all of a sudden, there's this plane in the middle of the neighborhood and people are coming outside, like, what is going on?

[A]

And the. Just, Just the, The trust that you guys have built and you. And you guys, the guys before you built it, you built it for the guys doing it right now, between the aviation arm and you guys on the ground, and they just blindly trust you. And of sorts, they have. And just in real world, like the places I've seen, you guys put helicopters in, even myself, you know, waiting to get on that helicopter, going, I don't know if I'd put that helicopter there. But. But hey, I. This is. They've. They've never. They've never done us wrong before. If he says it'll fit, it'll fit. And just to watch you guys put in helicopters in the. In the just tiniest of places has just always been mesmerizing to me.

[B]

We get spoiled. The 160th is, bar none, the best in the world. And having a relationship with those guys, knowing that we understand the minimums, they're willing to push the limit, and like, that combo makes those guys undefeated.

[A]

So you finish the whole course. You're all. You're all. You're all badged out like you wanted to be. Did you recycle anything?

[B]

No. Well, okay, so technically, yes, at pre scuba. So I got there, I got an AST at like 2002, and pre scuba happened, the intensity of the training kicked up because it's one thing being able to run 12 miles or whatever.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

When you add the. The benefit of not being able to breathe at the end of it, so you're going straight to the pool. It. It kicks something off that I didn't know I had had a heart condition that I was unaware of, and they couldn't understand it. I. I didn't know why I just kept passing out, pulling me out. Resuscitating me. And then they found out, like, I. I was able to figure out I had irregular heart palpitation. Whatever. It just felt like my heart was beating, like 200 beats a minute.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But it actually was. It was just fluttering. So when they figured that out, I went down to Lackland and there's this old Chinese colonel, spoke no English whatsoever, basically got out of it that, like, we can do this, this procedure, and 99% you'll be good to go. And if it doesn't comes back, whatever, do it again. Another 99 on it.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

But. So I did it, came back, and within a week, I believe, week and a half, I went right back in the pool and I just killed it.

[A]

What was the procedure? Like?

[B]

Catheter ablation. So they. They stuck these, like, 19 gauge needles, and forgive me if that's wrong, but it felt big in my neck and then in my femoral.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And they went to my heart and they started or. I'm sorry, they hit me with adrenaline.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

To try to get me to that position. And then they started hitting nerves and they found the nerve that was knocking my heart out of rhythm. And then they zapped it.

[A]

That's crazy. Yeah.

[B]

And then they pulled it. The worst part is when they pull everything back out. I guess this.

[A]

I guess they can't put you under for it.

[B]

No. I had to be awake because I had to tell them, like, yep, I'm feeling it now.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. That was miserable. But cool. But, yeah, completely. When I went back to the pool doing ditch and dons and stuff, I'm like, oh, this.

[A]

This is what it's supposed to feel like.

[B]

This is not that bad.

[A]

And the recovery seemed very minimal on. On that.

[B]

Yeah. I don't get it.

[A]

I mean, it seems pretty invasive, but also not that invasive at the same time.

[B]

I feel like if I stuck a. A ride, a hot rod to my heart, I'd feel like maybe I need a minute. But no, it was legit. And know, God bless that Chinese colonel. He really hooked me up.

[A]

Yeah. I mean, sure, he was collecting on us, but he was also doing good things.

[B]

Yeah. They know all about me.

[A]

Just kid. Just kidding.

[B]

Chinese, they have clones of me over there, right?

[A]

Yeah, the. Well, that's. I was interested in the way you answered it at first. I was like, all right, well, you did. You didn't like you. But that's. Yeah, I. I accept that answer.

[B]

I never really recycled. I just kept stopping. It was really, really. Yeah, it was really bad times. I did really well and everything, but Then now here I am with my whole class doing ditch and dawn and whatever. I'm sitting on the side of the pool with a toothbrush in the pool, just scrubbing the pool.

[A]

I mean, luckily it was. Yeah. Sorts towards the end, but did it push you back in class, you know, to go to dive school? Yeah, I did not. I think I would go to die school with. With. With your classmates.

[B]

No, I went back like, I think I went back two classes. They do overlapping. So we'll start one two weeks in another one. So I missed those two and I started the third one.

[A]

Did you know those guys two classes back?

[B]

I mean, we, we crossed paths. Like I didn't know them, but they were a legit crew.

[A]

But it's still, it's, it's, it's always, it's always funny when you're with a. When you're with a group of guys for a while.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And you get pushed back like this, there's always that certain feeling that you're like the guys I was with for that year, like, they're the best. Those were full of great guys. And I'm not going to get that with anyone else. As if there's not great guys in every class and you have to start out as the outsider and then as usually it doesn't take long and you're like, there's a bunch of great guys here too.

[B]

We're super lucky because just about every class.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Had prior service guys in there.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, prior service, sf, Marines, all this stuff.

[A]

And then you get to know twice as many controllers as anyone else because.

[B]

You got to see I'm making friends. That's what this whole trip is about. It's not about the. In the conclusion.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It's about making all the friends.

[A]

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[B]

Yeah.

[A]

How. How was dive school for you?

[B]

So the only thing I hated about die school was the runs. Yeah, I just hated the runs. And I was a good runner. I. I was running a 5, 20 mile, so it was good, but it was just, it was not fun. I don't like. I still don't like running. I can't remember the last time I ran.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But no, the, the dives and stuff are all good to go. We're solid. I had a good dive buddy. We made all the, all the marks, I think, except for the last one, because the last one, like, if you graduated, like, you as a.

[A]

Right.

[B]

I think I was like a kilometer off.

[A]

Do you remember? I don't need to know the exact one because I couldn't tell you my exact one either. But do you remember your dive team number?

[B]

No, no, no, no.

[A]

Like, and middle.

[B]

Back of the middle.

[A]

Okay. And. And whereas, like, I asked that because how you get your dive team number is like one of the initial swims and.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like, the first, you want to be paired up with someone that's close to your speed in the water because. So in the initial assessment swims, the fastest guys are Dive Team 1. And then having guys in the class is, you know, obviously there's 30 teams. Well, probably wouldn't be 30 teams, but if there's 20 teams, there's 40 guys in the class. Yeah, I was the same one. I was, I was. I was. It's a good thing that, that I don't know more than I did, but it was one of those things, like, had I known, maybe, maybe I wouldn't have pushed.

[B]

Slowed down.

[A]

Maybe would have slowed down a little bit because, you know, we get paired up in the water with someone faster than you because he would drag you all the way to that shoreline.

[B]

It's not really a bad thing, though. You're like, oh, I'm trying. He's just taking you in. It was really miserable too, because his. Well, April should have been okay, but it was freezing down there. They said it was one of the coldest winters they had up up to that point. And you couldn't wear Anything they wouldn't let.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I think they allowed you to wear like a 1mil chicken top and that was it. So you could try to, you know, not push, but if you did, you got cold.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So you were swimming us. Let me get out of this water, man.

[A]

I'm a Florida. I didn't even know Key west was capable of getting cold.

[B]

Oh, man. I didn't either. I thought I was going to the Caribbean. Like this is gonna be good.

[A]

Oh man. I remember waking up, I was 05 class. 05. 05. Which means would have been in May of, of, of 05.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

And just, you know, talk about just waking up at 5am and as soon as you step out, it's already balmy hot, humid, like you're already sweating. Like, this is just be another long day.

[B]

Yeah, we had the opposite. It was just miserable cold all the time.

[A]

Being a Floridian, I, I again, especially when it comes to water. I'll, I'll, I'll take the heat over the cold. Any, any day. Any day.

[B]

Was it. I can't remember where the pools heated. I think they were, weren't they the big.

[A]

Well, if you pee in them enough.

[B]

You make anything warm. Do you remember like the. Okay, so the, the night swims. Remember those like big crab traps?

[A]

Oh yeah.

[B]

Out there. Oh yeah, yeah. We had guys swimming like into those things all the time and then just get spun around. I can't believe it was like, you guys can't clear this. Like that seems kind of a issue, right? Dude stuck in that thing.

[A]

I'm telling you, I've gone back to Q. Have you been, have you been back to the dive school facility for training or anything like that? No, I'll tell you, I have. I went back to. For dive supervisor. I've been back there for a couple like training things and I, whenever I walk by it, I still hate that pool. Maybe I have. If I could, if I could, if I could demolish that pool. Just rebuild it somewhere else.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And, and, and we'll be fine.

[B]

Well, we were lucky enough because we had like some morning TV show was there.

[A]

Oh, really?

[B]

Yeah, they were there for our, our single man and one man comp.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And so you do the single man. That's the one everyone's worried about. Yep, I got that one. Thank God. I guess that. Right. And then the two man comp. Everyone kind of knew that. It's like, it's kind of fun.

[A]

Yeah, well, depending on your partner.

[B]

Yeah. Okay, so we did that. And because the news there was A big deal because they were like, they put this, the reporter like in dive stuff and she was down at the bottom of the pool like. But it was one of those head things so she can speak. Yeah. And so she's doing the broadcast underwater.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So I'm back there doing the two man comp. And I was actually a section leader or whatever they call them. The dude grabbed my UDT pocket and ripped my ass off. And so I, we finished and I get out. I didn't realize it was that bad. I knew he. I knew the pocket came off for sure. And I'm running around with my twin 80s.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I'm right in the front because I'm a section leader or whatever. My ass is hanging out all over the. I don't know how they didn't. Or I know how they edited that because it was live. Like, thanks, guys.

[A]

I. I still have my UDT shorts.

[B]

I. I found mine. Yeah, I found mine.

[A]

Yeah. The I go to die school stories for, for a while. We'll. We'll talk about it later. I got a two man comp story. But I'm telling you, I just, I didn't want to recycle die school. I just did not want to recycle die school. And I remember getting in. Into the pool and one man comp. And like my leg was like my legs were shaking like walking in the pool. And I remember looking down at the water, you could see the little ripples coming off my shaking legs going, nope, dude. This is like, this is not. Don't, don't, don't let anyone else see this. This is, this is my most manly moment. But the other reason why I kind of shouldn't have is we had, we had seal. You have. I'm sure you did. You have a couple SEAL instructors. You had a ranger instructor, one SEAL instructor. Yeah, well, I got the SEAL instructor as, as my one man comp. And someone, one of the, one of the guys looked over and at me before I got in the pool and goes, who you got? And I, I told him who I had. And like, so you got the softball. And I was like, oh, I don't, I don't know about that. But really was true. I don't think his lane recycled anyone. Okay. Because of sorts, like I'm, I'm not. Yeah. As a dive guy. They have, they have a green as a guest Green Beret instructor. Like, I'm not going to BUDS to get people kicked out of buds. Like, that's, that's your problem. I mean, I'LL hold the standard, but, you know, I'm not going to be a jerk to anyone.

[B]

No, right.

[A]

There's. I think we had two. Actually, those two Navy SEAL instructors were super nice and super cool.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

And I'm, I'm not saying I didn't have a substandard one man comp experience, but let me tell you, there were other lanes that had a much lower pass rate than others. So it absolutely matters what instructor you got to some degree on one man comp.

[B]

Yeah. I stood out because I was, I, I was a really good artist. And throughout our pipeline, we had to do comics.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

At the end of the week, you had to do a comic.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

We took turns. But when it came to my turn.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Every, every whatever school I went to when it came to my turns, like, you're now the comic guy. So like, it's the reason why I hate.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Artwork now because it's just. I remember that. But anyway, so I had that reputation at dive school now because I would always draw the instructors doing stuff. Like we had, we had. He was actually a controller instructor and he wore his UDT shorts and nothing underneath.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And he had this like fanny sack classic, like old school. He had this salt and pepper hair and he would just stand there, you know, walking. All right, guys. And you're like. So I had to put that in the comic.

[A]

Yeah. The good thing is, especially at that school, between the students and the instructors, you had, you had plenty of, you had plenty of stuff to pull from. Yeah. You probably had to narrow it down.

[B]

Tons of stuff.

[A]

Yeah. What, from dive school to Halo school? Are they back to back for you guys?

[B]

Pretty much. It's just a matter of openings. So I think mine was back to bat. I waited a couple weeks or something. Going to Halo. Yep.

[A]

What a. It's, it's funny because to some degree people talk about dive and Halo. They get, they get paired together a lot in conversation because of their specialty skills. You have dive teams, you have Halo teams. But the reality of it is it's just two. Just drastically different things. And people say obviously about that, but it's true again, when I was in sf, they pair those teams up a lot. As if just being specialty is similar. But the. And you have pre inspections. But there are some similarities about, you know, about how you get inspected and some part of the planning.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But like everything else, being good in one doesn't make you. Doesn't necessarily mean you're, you're good in both. And the sea is a, Is the most unforgiving environment you can work in. But let me tell you, I never got to the edge of the boat to jump into the water. Never got nervous.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, you put me at the edge of a 30,000 AGL jump and.

[B]

Yeah, I think that's the point. It's nerve wracking enough. We don't need to really with you.

[A]

To make it any worse. Right. So it's such a wild different thing especially to go for like from, from one thing, from one extreme to the next and back to back in your military career. What, where, where'd you go for, for HALO school?

[B]

Out in Arizona.

[A]

Eloy.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay. So the.

[B]

I'm sorry, Yuma.

[A]

Yuma. I'm sorry, Yuma.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

The had. Walk me through your first jump, man.

[B]

It was funny because we talked about like telling stories and I was like, well, you got to kind of ping me. I don't. I remember the first time.

[A]

I remember my first job as well.

[B]

I actually got. I actually made my decision to go into the military because the Secretary of defense is coming in the town and they needed to practice doing a tandem when. For when he comes. So they pick my dad to do it.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And then my dad was like, do you want to do that? And yeah, so he gave it to me. He gave me a jump for my birthday and two, four. Guy jumped me.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And when I landed and I was like, I am not going to college.

[A]

You already had a jump under your belt.

[B]

So I had one jump and. But he poised out when he did.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

So yeah, guys don't know, like if you, if you dive out, you don't really get a rush or anything. It's kind of benign. It's, it's fun. If you poise out and you're upright, you do get that rush, right. And so he poised out and I remember that rush. And when you go your first jump at HALO school, I think you dive. And so that's all I was thinking about. I was like, oh, I hate that. I hate that roller coaster gut feeling. And that's all I could think about. So I wasn't thinking about anything. I wasn't thinking about, like, make sure your hands are right and check your pens. I was like, man, I hope my guts. I don't get that gut feeling.

[A]

Right.

[B]

That's all I think about. But man, yeah, you get up there and holy shit, like you are at 18,000ft or whatever. It was 16,000. And then at some point I, I would typically get nervous about stuff, but when it's time to Go. And there's no like turning back. Well, there is, but.

[A]

Right.

[B]

I'm never gonna like not do it. So getting out there was just, is super easy. But I was just waiting for that. That initial gut feeling. It didn't come. I'm like, oh well I'm good.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And then flying was, well for most of us was easy. There were some guys that just, they.

[A]

Look like harder for something. Others for sure they look like what.

[B]

A cat would look like. If you throw out the back of a plane stiff armed and going down like correct yourself. Do something.

[A]

Right. Do something to help your.

[B]

You could. It's.

[A]

You got to help yourself out of this scenario. No one's coming for you. The I don't think people realize as well the drastic, drastic difference between static line and, and freefall.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I mean for the most part. For the most part. And it's, and it's, and it's how it's set up intentionally this way. For the most part. You can't screw up a static line jump. You don't have almost no matter how you exit that aircraft, the parachute is going to pull itself and you can only, you can. You only, you can only have so much input and into that canopy. So it kind of, it limits, it limits to, limits you in two ways. How much you can help yourself, but also limits to how much you can hurt yourself. And again which is a good thing because we want hundreds of people to land generally in the, in the same area. And a freefall, everything from the exit to the landing is, is all on you to control and you. And drastic, drastic endings from where you land at. If you land.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Or on that variable and you feel that when you go from fall from static line to halo. Like it's all on me now. It's all on me.

[B]

Yeah. If you, if you mess up a static line jump, generally, you know, hoping that the plane is in the right spot. I mean you can, you can end up 500 kilometer away. Man, you mess up a hey ho, you know, I mean, you're looking at miles and miles and miles away.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And maybe you're the only idiot that did that. And so now you're alone. So yeah, it really is on you. I mean I, I've had so many times jump in the Navy that you know, you open up and you go on heading and you don't see anybody for thousands of feet until like the last like 5,000ft. And then you see this big snake like oh, there they are. And you work your way into that thing you're like, yeah, I've been here the whole time, but, yeah, it only.

[A]

Matters how it ends.

[B]

It's work. It's.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like, static line. You get out, man, and you hope, like, okay, my stuff is still on me. And then you get to a certain point, you let your drop, and you hit the deck. But this one, like, you're working all the time. You're looking at your instruments, you're looking at your guy in front of you. Make sure the guy behind you is not doing anything silly. And then you're hitting the. You're trying to get in the right spot, and they're, like, always working the whole time.

[A]

Yeah, it's. It's a little. Yeah, you also. You forget how much work it is, too. Yeah. I mean, if you're just doing a fun jump and, you know, just going to burn it all the way down and then just, you know, circle into the. Into the. The landing zone. Not. Not a lot of work. That's fun, but military free fall is a lot of work. A lot of canopy control. You're under the canopy for a long time, and you're all trying to stay together, and you're all. You're all trying to go to a certain point from as far as ways you can exit that aircraft. And to do that three or four, five, six times a day. It is. God, it's a lot of work.

[B]

Yep. Yeah. Especially when, like, green team, we get to, like, you're packing your own shoots, so you're putting that monster in a bag, right? You got instructors, like, just get it in there. Like, this is kind of my life, you know? Like, just get it in and going up again. And.

[A]

Yeah, I had a guy who was already a HALO guy, and my OT were. We were at free fall, and he would. He would pack his parachute so fast and. And be up and ready to go. And, you know, I was meticulously packed my parachute, getting yelled at. We got to go. We got to go. We got to go. And he had packed his parachute. I'm about halfway done, and he walks by me, and he goes, brent, it's a parachute. It wants to open. Just put it in there. And I was like, I don't really feel good about that.

[B]

But I.

[A]

But he's. He's actually not wrong either. For the most. For the most part, throw that thing in there. It's a parachute. It wants to open.

[B]

Yeah, it really wants to open it. It takes a massive amount of negligence.

[A]

It does. It does. Yeah. The. When. When. When you graduate HALO school, did you already know which sts you were going to?

[B]

No, that's where you figured it out. You put in your wish list.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

I wanted to go to Bragg for sure.

[A]

Who's there? Two one.

[B]

Is that two one Is there? Yeah, two. The two one are Combat Control School, the final schools there, and then our tier one element.

[A]

Why brag more specific? Is there any specific reasons? What was your top three?

[B]

It was Bragg and then Florida.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And then because I think, because I had to have a third. I think I put like England or something.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

But I didn't want to do that. I think I might have changed that because if they see an overseas unit on there, they were like, oh, yeah, that's where you're going.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So I think I scratched that one later on. But when I.

[A]

No one puts New Mexico do that.

[B]

Well, that didn't exist.

[A]

Did that not exist then?

[B]

No.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Nope. And yeah, I don't understand that decision, but whatever. I actually been out there for training. At one point I was like, yeah.

[A]

I've been out there a few times.

[B]

This is truly at One Horse Town.

[A]

It really is.

[B]

I got some really kick ass gator skin boots out there when I was there though.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Me and my buddy, like, we're in the Southwest.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Or we got to get something.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

He got these white snakeskin boots and I got negated. Anyway, so just new boot goofing. Yeah, just new boot goofing. When I. At my graduation at ccs, I had these three guys walk up to me in suits, massive handlebar mustaches, and they're like, hey, when you. When your time is ready, why don't you come on over across the street? I was like, okay. Like, they picked me and come to find out, like, and especially when I went there, like, they say that to everybody. They're like, we need you. Because they really do.

[A]

Right.

[B]

But so when I saw that, like everyone else is in uniform, you know, it's a formal event. Yeah. And these guys are in suits and massive mustache. I'm surprised they didn't have black beanies on. But I was like, that's it. So I was like, well, I might as well just go to Bragg anyway.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So I don't have to move and blah, blah, blah. And after that, like, that was my end state. I was gonna go there for sure.

[A]

Okay, how'd you, like, how long were we at the. At the 2.

[B]

14 from 04 till, oh, 8. Yeah.

[A]

Okay. So it still took you a little bit of time to make that decision or be available for that decision. Which, which one both self inflicted.

[B]

So I did.

[A]

I think it's a good thing. I don't think it's, it's never, it's never advantageous to go to the next level too fast.

[B]

For sure. I was told that I should have gone quicker.

[A]

But yeah, whatever I was about to say. And there's. I don't think it's advantageous to go too slow either. There is like a, a window you kind of want to hit.

[B]

Yep. I, I don't regret it at all because I got, I did two, two times Afghanistan. And then our chief at the time prior, two, four guys, well, he's like, you should go. And I said well I want to get out of rack rotation then because I just feel like I should.

[A]

Right. You're always building up your, your own self imposed resume.

[B]

Yeah, exactly.

[A]

Like they don't, they don't really care.

[B]

No. Like two, two pumps was good and yeah. And, but so I did Iraq and then when I came back it was recommended that I get my air traffic control rating.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

So even though you go to air traffic control school, you get your badge and all this stuff, but you're not rated. And that's true for any air travel. You have to go to a specific airport, work there for, depending on how busy it is, eight to one and a half years being there. And then you're a rated air traffic controller. So it was recommended that I do that. Did I really need it? I don't, I don't.

[A]

No.

[B]

I mean it helped, but yeah. So that took like eight months of my life to get that. And then I went over to the, to the unit after that.

[A]

Who, who, who attached to or support on an Afghanistan in Iraq.

[B]

So my first rotation I was actually augmented to the command which was awesome. So like I did ccs. I saw these guys in my first rotation. I got to work with them. Right.

[A]

So it's going to ruin you right off the bat.

[B]

Yeah. It was so awesome because like I can't say I hated the military, but I hated marching. I hated uniforms.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And then when I show up out there, it was actually the Navy that was hanging around. Dudes in all tan uniforms like dirty as hell beards out to no man's land. And I was like this. Yes.

[A]

Right.

[B]

This is where I need to be. But anyway, so the, the next rotation I went out with third group, Afghanistan. I was at a. Camp Tillman.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Right near where. Where Pat Tillman was killed.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

So I was out there. Really awesome deployment. Those guys were the Best. Best team sergeant I ever worked for.

[A]

That's awesome. Especially your first two deployment, even though they're both through Afghanistan, you. You'd got the experience between working with those two elements would have been very well rounded to get. To get to see the difference between the two.

[B]

Yeah, it's, it's not that the white side isn't fast, but being we're not.

[A]

We're not fast.

[B]

Well, like to some degree, seeing like how fast things move. Command was impressive. And I on.

[A]

On approve on an approval level is that we're talking about or that like. Yeah, like we're really just in every aspect.

[B]

They could be in the chow hall and the next thing you know, like you need to be on a burden in 45 minutes and with the plan, with contingency plans, etc. Etc. Etc. So that gave me a really good perspective in the beginning. Like, I need to get quicker.

[A]

Yeah, I always hated that for the white side. Don't get me wrong. I believe they're, you know, there's a reason why the tier one side moves as fast as it does because they're capable of moving that fast. I don't believe the white side just honestly is capable of moving that fast, but they are capable of moving faster than they do. And I always hated that about the, the white side, about the restrictions that were put on them essentially from. Usually from. From their own command.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And they didn't have to move that. So they didn't have to be that all those levels of approval. But, but they were there because unlike you, I never got to like, see the other side at all, much less like first. And that's another thing that. Did that frustrate you, seeing the, the, the level of how fast something could go on your first trip and then on your second trip, working with the white side being like, why is it taking so much to. To get out the gate?

[B]

We were actually. It was a benefit to us because we were out in the middle of nowhere and nobody had really any oversight. There were very specific things that happened that were frustrating. Like, we got. We got ambushed right on the border. Like a really bad one. They caught us completely off guard. The mountain range that they were on was a kilometer away from the border. And so I was about to drop.

[A]

Like six JDAMs on the inside of Afghanistan.

[B]

On the inside.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Completely legal.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

At a B52 coming in the rock the world. And the B team came over the radio and said, nope. And like, I mean, we just had eight, nine RPGs, there's two PKMs up there, we're getting hammered. And they're like, you can't do it.

[A]

Like you're not here.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

What makes you think you could weigh it on this situation?

[B]

We had already dropped 105s on them.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Because our artillery guys were the, they had been there for like a year already. So yeah, we had every pointy thing around there had a TRP on it. So lucky enough we had those guys. But I've seen, you know, there's specific incidents with that that occurred. It's just, they're just a bigger beast. So the bigger the beast gets, it's harder to push and harder to move.

[A]

Right. I just hated it because we, if we could move fast on the white side, generally speaking, it was because it's just great Americans doing whatever it took to make it happen.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But if you're doing that, you're usually. And we'll just, just kind of make it up. And I don't, I don't have time to explain it all, but I think most people get the gist of it. So if, if I'm saying I'm going on a, you know, a, a level one op, which is the highest and it could be unilateral and, but it, that takes like 72 hours to get approved.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And, and so because, you know, you cannot get the bad guy working under those restraints. So they're going to say, well, we're not going to, we're not going to. We're going to hit it at night instead of during a daytime. We're going to hit it during the daytime and not a night. So that'll knock it down, you know, a category to level two. And we'll bring, you know, you'll do all these things to, to make the timeline or the approval process easier. But the other thing that'll happen, well, you know, level one Con Ops come with a bunch of air and come with. You come with assets. And so you're, you're basically lying about what you're doing to, in order to move faster, but you're going out there with, with, with less assets. And some guys have been caught with their pants down, you know, because of that. But I get it. Like, otherwise, if, if, if teams always played by the rules and not in this gray area, then, then we wouldn't have got done what we needed to get done. And that's part of the reason that, you know, that made me go, you know, leave. Leave SF to go to greener pastures.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And don't get me wrong, I'M not going to sit here and like, like I'm badmouth. And sf. I had a great time in sf. Yeah. God, did I have a good time in sf, but, but it could have been better. And then a lot of it was, was self induced. But I'm glad that you had a really good time working with, with third group and that you got a, you had a good team.

[B]

Yeah. And I was in Iraq with fifth group. Again, awesome team.

[A]

Nice.

[B]

This time, like the best team leader I had or worked for. Seth, wherever you're at, awesome dude, man. He was the quintessential like Green Beret captain. Like, if you said that this dude's, you know, six something, whatever, just a stoic guy, whatever, had a grand time there. And every one of those deployments I kept learning something new. Like with augmentation, when I learned, like, I need to get faster.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Then the, the third group in Afghanistan, like, I really got in some serious firefights and I realized like, okay, this is what getting shot at is and doing my job. And then Iraq kind of put it all together. I've already gotten shot at and it was a lot faster.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Because it's just more urbanized and stuff. And so all of those together with great teams and I got really super lucky. Like, I felt like at that point, man, I got it all. I don't know what else I could get.

[A]

Yeah, you felt like your, your self imposed resume was, was complete.

[B]

It was, it's tough because the war's in full kick and, and now I got to spend another year to go to selection. I was like, man, I'm gonna miss two deployments now because of this. And, But I don't know, like, I just felt like I needed to do it. I really wanted to be up there. So.

[A]

Did you know anyone else that had left for the 2 4, but before you?

[B]

Yes, I think it did. Yeah, there was. Yep. There was a couple guys that had gone right before I did.

[A]

Yeah, here's, here's an interesting question. I don't, I don't think I've ever got to ask one of you guys. And I get to ask you guys questions all the time. Like on our side, like when, when a guy goes to the, you know, we call the other side of the fence or tier one, like, we. You don't hear from him again, at least on, on the army side, you know, like they, they just go into, in this black hole. And that kind of feeds the myth, you know, a little bit. Then you find out like, once you do it, it's, it's not for any particular rhyme or reason. You're just, you're just really, really busy.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And so I knew very, very little as it should be about, you know, where I was going to go next when it ended up there. How on, on the Air Force side were you able to keep in contact with those guys? Did, did you know what they were doing at least generally or how does that. No, same thing.

[B]

It was the same thing.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You go up there, even within your building, you don't see guys forever. You know, except for within your specific element.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That I rarely would see certain other elements like for years.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And then unfortunately the only reason we ever get together is either potentially maybe someone gets an award or someone dies. That's like the only time we ever got to see each other.

[A]

Yeah. I already knew we were going with that one. That is ironically, ironically true. When, when you went over there. Like any selection process. No, everyone needs to go into that selection process knowing as little as possible. However, just challenge wise. Did. Were you physically prepared, you know to.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Did you go to it in the best shape your life how. And then, and when you showed up, how did it meet your expectations, if you had any?

[B]

So not like I got in the best shape of my life when I was there.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Because I actually figured it out. I guess so I, I was as best as I could.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I think the more impressive part of the selection and then green team eventually was just the, the amount of knowledge that you had to have right now and again the quick pace of everything. They really, really hound on the basics. There's nothing new in regards to your job that you're going to learn there. It's just different mission set and that mission set is fast and you got to keep up, you got to stay ahead of the game. There's not wait for something to happen. And that's what was impressive. And I wouldn't say it was hard, but it was definitely. It kept you on your toes. Like I got to keep up my. So like I can go to bed right now or I can read, you know about bombs for a couple hours and be ready for tomorrow. And most of the time you need to do that.

[A]

Mentally wise and as. As someone before going over in your position to a healthy degree should be and that's very confident, maybe even on the edge of cocky. And that's, and that's, that's, that's how I want my, my guys and special operations with that attitude. Was there ever time you went over there and you're like, at least to some degree, like, the, the inner younger you was like, I'm really good at my job. I mean, what, what can they teach me? Did you, did you ever have that of sorts, and then show up and be like, never mind. There was, there was a lot I didn't know. Or were you completely open to the fact that there's, there's a lot more to learn?

[B]

Yeah. No, to, to this day, I still have imposter syndrome. Like, I don't. Like, yeah, I, I'm doing the Pipeline and then like, somehow I graduate and then, and then. Okay, well, dive school and then somehow I graduate. And then getting up there, like, man, I don't know if I deserve to be here kind of thing. So I just took everything in and then you get through it, whatever, and you're like, man, I shouldn't be here. Like, yeah, I don't think I'm that type of guy that should be here. Yeah. So it was never a confidence thing because I was very confident what I could do. I just didn't know. I just didn't feel like I was the top 1% guy. You look at, you know, all these heroes that we grew up with, MACV guys and.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And World War II and even, you know, my father's time with the Cold War and Desert Storm and like all these Giants guys that are just doing ridiculous stuff. And I was like, man, I don't feel like I'm one of those dudes.

[A]

But I think it's always surprising the amount of, of people that I talk to post service, because when, when we're in the teams, you're never going to, more than likely, you're never going to tell someone that.

[B]

No.

[A]

But when you're done, you know, you're like, you know, you'll be open and honest about it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I think the real interesting thing about that is people who are very confident, borderline cocky and imposter syndrome, even though they're both, you would think, very different on, on the spectrum, personality wise, they, they end up the same as far as being driven. And what I found is this. With the, with the imposter syndrome, you don't feel like you're good enough. So you're always having to prove yourself, prove yourself to yourself and drive and be better. Ironically enough, the guys that are very confident and cocky, especially if they, if they continue to make it, it's that type of confident where they know, like, they know they're good, but they know if, if they want to keep up This, I don't even want to call it facade but if they want to keep up this impression or a belief of who they really are and they also have to continue to work to earn that confidence and to earn that cockiness. And so both sides, which is weird as would be on opposites of that spectrum, they're both equally driven.

[B]

You got to maintain that perspective that you're putting out there. Some got to get up to that one.

[A]

Something has to, something has to give you a reason to, to continue to drive and to prove and to prove something. And said the imposter syndrome is a little bit surprising to me because I'm sure anyone who's ever worked with you would, would never have. It's something you kind of keep close hold.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, and it's something that, that you keep internalized to, to, to drive you.

[B]

Yeah. I never, I never talked about it when I was in.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Now I, I, I'm sure I have talked about it but no, no, I, I never never thought my latter years when I was a team leader, like right from there I was like, yeah man, I got this like team leader was the best job I ever had. And yeah, from then I felt, I felt good about it.

[A]

If you've ever been to any of my tactical training classes, then you know how adamant I am about the use of white light and the importance of a quality high powered tactical light. That's why I use cloud defensive tac lights. You, you can't hit what you can't see and neither can the bad guys. Clearly identify your target and simultaneously overwhelm his vision with hundreds and even thousands of lumens. Get serious about defending yourself and your family and go to clouddefensive.com and use promo code tier one to get 15% off your order. And they will donate 15% to FRCC's nonprofit the Cat 2 Foundation, which provides free training and support to first responders across the country. The 24 gets a real unique perspective and into the tier one world because even though, yeah, of course I'll work, I'll work with you guys. You know, you guys are always in our building. I'll get glimpses of, of the, you know, the guys over at the beach on, on, on short training sts. But I mean you guys get, get a deep look and into both of us and I think that's, I think that's really unique and, and I've, I won't put you on the spot right now and ask you. Oh, you know, I will, I know it's Coming. Right. And it's not. No, it's not. It's not a who's better? What to you. And was it like, is it two or three years? You'll work with one for two or three years and work with the other for two or three years.

[B]

It was kind of all over the place for a little while, but after about a year, when I got there, it was two years here, two years there.

[A]

Right. So it really shows. Like, you get a deep look. That's what I mean, to kind of put a. Put a number on it. What are, what are the. What was. What would you say the differences are, if any. They may not. There may not be any to you. What would you say the differences are between the units?

[B]

Man, I really think about that. There really isn't a lot, man. Like in the General, you know, 10,000 foot look at it, they're both very, very much the same. Well, you got a lot of really high level, confident, completely brilliant, smart people who, you know, there might be a lawyer here, there might be a guy that used to just fix toilets there, and you can't tell the difference. You can't tell the difference between the older dude and younger dude. So the amount of confidence that goes on in there, and it's not fake, because when you actually talk to the guys, they can talk to you like a normal human, even higher than that. And they're always, always, always, always training.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You might show up, you know, 10 minutes late because traffic or whatever, and those guys already left 25 minutes ago.

[A]

Right.

[B]

They go to the range or go to the pool or whatever it is. It's incredible. You know, I don't know if I ever come out, and books will never do it justice, but the amount of go that those guys on both sides do all the time is unreal. It's unreal. It's not even like college football level. It's beyond that. How much those guys train constantly, all the time, all year, and the diversity of it all that they're doing. They might be doing a Draeger dive one day and then they're doing fast roping the next day. Then they're going to put it all together. Little jugger dive, fast rope. I don't even know if that's a thing.

[A]

But they'll do it. They'll do it. Yeah. So essentially what you're saying to me, if we had. If we had three Blackhawks pick us up right now, and you didn't know who was on those Blackhawks, but.

[B]

I know.

[A]

But by the time by the time the mission was over and. And I got to ask you, hey, who. Which. Which side. Which side were you with? Would. Would you know who was in that helicopter?

[B]

Oh, yeah, yeah. Like, I. I could know and I.

[A]

Could tell, but based off of small things. Yeah. Okay.

[B]

Yeah, there's. There's little.

[A]

I mean, I could talk nuances, if you will.

[B]

The Navy's really, really light and fast that they appreciate that. Sneaky, peaky, being able to move long distances to maintain that kind of posture of not being seen by any early warning kind of thing. So they weren't really, really light.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And then the army, like, you're gonna make it, like, they pack heavy, heavy bombs, heavy ammo, heavy everything.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And it's funny because, like, I can't pick which one I love. Running light and fast.

[A]

Right.

[B]

But, man, when goes to, like, you have every bit of ammo and everything you got, like.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Which one do I pick for?

[A]

Like, it just depends on the, you know, back. Back to the 2 4. It wasn't even though, again, I worked with you guys a lot. It wasn't until I read the book Relentless Strike. That was. Relentless Strike is an amazing book. And there's things in there that even I'm surprised at what's in there, but it's a real JSOC history book is really what it is. And I read some things in there about you guys doing, ironically, some things we already talked about, but like unilateral missions haloing into to Afghanistan early on the days, doing. Doing the airfield survey stuff or the dirt landing strip, you know, middle of Afghanistan, so to set up a farp so we could, you know, do longer distance missions. And it was. It was crazy to me to kind of put myself in those shoes. And like, these two four guys just. Just a couple of them haloing in. In the middle of the night to Afghanistan. Just. Just them. I mean, they're not. They're not there with a whole troop just snooping and pooping around the deserts of. Of Taliban country to see if. See if we eventually want to land a. An aircraft here. And it really got my mind, you know, thinking about the unilateral side of the house you guys are cap. Not just capable of, but have actually done real world. And that was really cool to me.

[B]

Yeah, they. They've done quite a few. I don't know which ones they can really talk about, but we've done a lot of unilateral stuff, but we don't ever see it that way. We see it always as I think it's just because we're always supporting somebody. We always see it as supporting something. It began with, like, with us, the army, and then. And the army and the Air Force were both created in that place at the same time.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Came out of Desert One, and Coach Carney was our guy. He's the one that went in with a CIA bird in a Desert One and set up the airfield all by himself.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And so that, I guess that. I guess that could be our first unilateral mission. He was super unilateral because there's just one dude out there. But, yeah, we've done. We've done our quite a bit of unilateral stuff. And even into my latter years of being there, we're not just doing airfield stuff or Cesar stuff. We were doing other things that were just our team.

[A]

Yeah, I don't even think about the. We didn't talk about the Cesar side of the house that you guys. That you guys are tasked with. And that's a whole nother animal. It's just. It's like you kind of mentioned it already. People just think a little bit at the tier one level, we're just really good at one thing, and that is true. Like, we. We are really good at that one thing.

[B]

And that's what we were developed for.

[A]

And that's what we were developed for. But we still have to be good, and we're expected to be good at every. At everything else. And, you know, we talk about that. You know, the seesaw aspect of it, too. I've got to see that in training. And those are. That's a. It's a really unique mission set.

[B]

Yeah, it's. It's pretty interesting because it's very much like, oh, you can kind of relate to, like, Secret Service. Like, you're probably never going to do your job, but when you do, it's pretty serious.

[A]

It's pretty important.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, I've sat on a lot of airfields just waiting all night, and, like, you know, it's kind of a. Do I want to feel like I really want to get after it? Because if I do, that means something bad happened. Always felt bad. For the 160th guys, I got the seesaw mission because they're all, like, their crew chiefs are all kids, and, like, they're hearing on the radio like, I want to get in there, too. And like, sorry, guys, you're holding us. But yeah, we do a lot of training for collapse structure and vehicle extrication and stuff. And the amount of Shit that those guys bring to the table. When it comes to something catastrophic like that, it's pretty incredible as far as lift capabilities, cut capabilities, extraction stuff. The training they do to get in the small confined spaces, to be able to move humans and gear through that is pretty crazy.

[A]

Yeah. The PJ side of the house. Yeah, those. And those, those guys. Those guys. Every. You guys have never sent anyone to us that was even mediocre. I mean, these just the caliber of, of men that you guys produce and maintain the standard. I, I can, I can speak for, for both sides of the house and, and every squadron. There was just never a time. Don't get me wrong, you get, you get your. At some point, you get your favorites and, and it always sucks. I'll, I'll, I'll tell you his name here in a second. We had our favorite. In fact, he worked with us the whole time. You might, you don't even know who I'm talking about through this. He never even got. Did a blue rotation and he only worked with us and we got him for a long time. And it sucks to have to go. Sucks to have to go replace this guy. In fact. I'll talk about this while I got you. I don't know if you guys ever felt it, but there was a certain point where I felt, I don't want to say bad, but I re. I realized this, that when you're coming over to us for the first time, we've already made it. You know where you're at, and you were already a new guy where you're at. And now you have to come and then reestablish a relationship with another unit. And then when you do this for a couple of years, you have to go to the next place and then reestablish yourself as a new guy. If you. As an unknown. Yeah, another place. And so you guys have that hop around of stuff, you know, that you move around a lot that we don't have to deal with. But if they ever felt like that again, it was, it was self imposed because every single one of you guys that walked into our bay was a known quantity.

[B]

Yeah, I mean that's really, really common thing with us is just bouncing around like Marines, third group, fifth group, SEAL Team 2, SEAL Team 10. And then by the time you get up there, it's kind of. Yeah, this is what I do. It's, it's the one thing I, I can't say I didn't like because I got so much experience from all these different branches and teams and et Cetera. But it's, it's tough to be able to like train with your boys all year just to deploy with, you know, some random group of dudes. And that's on the white side. You know, at least on, on this side at least you train with them for a year, right, or half a year, and then you deploy with those same guys. But still you go back to your unit and it's all your boys and you guys drink and have fun and like, you know, each other's families. And if something does happen overseas, like I wasn't there, right. You know, they were on their own with another team. So like, I, I would appreciate that. I appreciated what the army and Navy had with their really close knit, you know, family. Basically. Yeah, we didn't get the full capability that we had a little bit because we were still trained on our own with guys. But I really, really desired like training with our bros and then deploying with our bros and then coming back and training our bros. So no regurgits. I still appreciate it, like having that experience with, with dudes and again, like, you know, imposter syndrome. Sitting here with, you know, guys who were, you know, the ancestors of MACV and all. And like, this is what I've been dreaming about. So no complaints.

[A]

The, at the end of my career or just shortly after my career, I got to go work with you guys on a, on a civilian side with which is one of, I think the Air Force. I believe that this. Right. But this would have happened at the end of your time. Kind of want to get this your take on it. They turned the Special Operations weathermen into essentially into. And reclassified them into more of a reconnaissance SNR team roles and responsibility, which was kind of what they were doing to some degree anyway. But they definitely, when you're doing that, you get a chance to really just do a complete re. Scope and say, well, let's, let's. Let's set the standards on this and do this right. I thought was a good call on, on the Air Force side. The. What. What did that do? Was that a big change for you guys or is it something that you were kind of already doing anyways because you guys can, can essentially do it. Someone saying do what you want because we're not cowboys, but we're better. We're better at making an element until what it needs to be. And so the Air Force was finally, instead of making it to what it needs to be, they were finally saying, hey, like this is, this is what it needs to be. Let's let's, let's move forward with it. Had that change effect or no change at all. Business as usual with the 2 4.

[B]

There wasn't really any change with us. So at that point I was, we were doing something different up there at the time and I was a team leader for reconnaissance team and I already had TACPs and at the point at the time weather guys and like I had a whole mix of dudes on my team and then the redesignate him as you know what he's already doing anyway.

[A]

Right.

[B]

He wasn't a big issue. But at the front end I think that's an absolutely correct decision. You know to make it a broader reconnaissance job rather than just strictly weather like that just makes sense. And I don't know because we've made this fight for forever with the Air Force on what should be done with STS now Special warfare. I don't know what their end game with that is because I just haven't investigated it. But our broad look at it was to have teams that have PJs, controllers, TACPs and special reconnaissance guys to be able to do whatever mission sets needed by the Air Force but then also still be able to augment to special Forces teams, the seals, whatever. I think it just gave us more reach, more capability.

[A]

Zooming out more on a strategic level with the Air Force. Do you think, do you think the Air Force, the special operations side of the Air Force did. Is doing a good job of, of regrouping after the G what and being prepared for the next thing or do you think that the G what kind of set set some, some focus and like well this is how we do business now because this is how we've been doing it for 20 years. What's, what's your perception on, on the future of Air Force special operations and, and it is, it is in a, is it in a good spot?

[B]

Well so the problem I guess is that the current generation of guys there are too young to remember back in the 90s and 80s. And not that I was in at that point, but my, my father was in very, very invested in STS and he can count, you know, so many times that the Air Force is trying to get rid of pararescue and try to get rid of combat control. And so my point is if we're not adapting and we're not growing, we're just staying the same, they're going to keep on trying to do this thing. They're going to figure it out that an ODA can just create 18 whatever Romeo and create a JTAC group or classification or job. Same with the SEAL teams and whatever. They still already, they already do it. But it's not a sole job. Like the RTO might do it, the Echo or a seal on there might have it. But it's not a sole focus. It's easier to just hit the go button and get one of those.

[A]

Absolutely.

[B]

But if they took it serious enough, it makes sense to me to have a guy who you know for years to be able to do that job rather than bringing in a new dude every time. Although this is what we, what we do the same with Pararescue and right. All the rest. I just think that we need to constantly be growing and improving our fighting position and look for work that would make sense, that would help out the Air Force and then also our sister branches. And continuing to do what we do all the time is just not going to do it. I don't say we have to make a gigantic leap and I won't say that I'm smart enough to understand what that growth would look like. But I just think if we stay stagnant, you know, the rest of the force is going to be growing and getting better, making things easier, making things more electronic or whatever. If we don't grow and adapt with that, we're just going to, you know, not be used anymore.

[A]

Yeah. And I would hate to have to relearn the same lessons there was. And we already talked about it early on, early on in the gwat. Not, not every team left with a controller. But there's a reason by in a very short amount of time, every team left the wire with a controller. So everything you just said is true. Like it briefs well, like hey, we could get rid of these guys and we can just add something onto their plate. But again that only briefs. Well, history's already shown us there's a reason why someone specifically does this job when it really matters. I think you already answered my next question which was how does, how do you think the Air Force as a whole views their special operation wing? I'll just leave it there for a follow up question because it, because from the outside, the civilians, if you will, the outside looking in, we get questions all the time. There's, I don't call them fans, but you know, I mean there's, there are fans of, of the, the ground side of the Air Force and special operations. And I don't always feel like the Air Force itself is, is a fan of you guys. But you lived it and you were.

[B]

You were There it ebbs and flows. Like we had, we've had some leadership that had personal interactions with our guys. A particular guy who was rescued during Desert Storm by us. Yeah, PJs. And so when he became guy in charge, like he was super all about us, right? But other than that, like, if they don't have any personal interactions with us on a professional level, not just training and all that stuff, but in real world, man, it's. They just really, really don't understand what we do. I, I went and did a thing out west with the weapon school when I was at the, at the command and I was going into a briefing room with. These are all, you know, students and instructors present the scenario. It's a massive, massive exercise. Basically invasion of a country. Aircraft are coming in, taking out SAM sites, taking whatever, all this stuff. And it's all live action. Like planes are actually moving. And I was in there to be able to present what it is we were doing. We were out there actually using a certain missile system and we were going to take out this system, this AAA system, radar dish, whatever. And so I was in there and the presenter, like, who knew, he knew who we were, but none of the, none of the kids did. Yeah, like any of you guys. This is Mass Sergeant Fred. He's from 24th. If you guys have any questions for him, he'll be right over there. And I just stood there for like a good hour and a half, no questions. So whatever. Long story short, we go out and do this mission. The whole exercise goes, and then everyone comes back and you sit in this massive auditorium and they go second by second through everything of where all the planes are, what you did, whatever. And the, the referee or whatever is like, no impacts. You got shot down by an SA7 and like call sign, whatever. And then we got to us at our time, you know, two 4sts launches, blah, blah, blah.

[A]

Right?

[B]

And referee. Yep, you did, yeah. And then two minutes later, like 2 4Cs impact on whatever site and they're like, confirm kill. We were the only element in the entire exercise that got a confirmed kill on that thing. And so when I went back the second time for the next exercise, they're like, yeah, on your way out there, would you be able to shoot this thing and this thing and this thing and then be available if we get shot down to pick us up and blah, blah, all these questions like, yeah, yes, yep, we'll do that. So it's just not there. And it's funny because civilians don't feel bad that you don't know about us. There's a ton of Air Force doesn't know anything about us.

[A]

How does that change? Should it change?

[B]

I do a movie. It's a. It's a very, very much top side thing. It's a leadership thing. We're either the greatest thing on the planet or nobody wants to talk about us. Right. Like.

[A]

Right.

[B]

We get guys that do incredible things and they promote the hell out of them, but they don't really promote the community itself. They'll promote the individual, which isn't necessarily a bad thing. Great. But he came from a particular group of dudes that do this on a daily basis. And I think that, like, internally, I think leadership needs to do something about that to be able to showcase, like, what these guys are capable of, where they can provide to you. And we're here for you guys.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

We're not out there doing it on.

[A]

Our own, you know? Yeah, I'm sure you know him. Jared Taylor is, is. Is invested in that. In fact, he just did a documentary on the, on the, on the history of, of jtax.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

I just started watching. It's really cool. And it's just. It's going to just literally just line out the. The history of it. And, and he had guys in there like, interviewing him. And I think that's a. I think that's where it starts. And I'm really glad you came on because we need good men throughout our whole military to be as strong as it needs to be to maintain a free country. And it's a beacon of this world. And if guys just want to be rangers and Green Berets and seals, we cannot have a weak point anywhere in our military. And after working with you guys, I'm sorry, anyone who has, is. Is adamant about the job you guys do and what you bring to the table. And I'm more than happy. So glad you said that you would come on. So I had this opportunity to highlight you guys and what you do. I know a lot of. Not a lot of people want to talk about it and of sorts and come on podcasts, I get it. But if we don't do this then. Then you kind of stay in the shadows.

[B]

Yeah, that's. That's our. They give benefit to the leadership. That is our major problem is. Well, I can. Major problem. Like we still are. I know nobody wants to say these words, but we still are very, very, very much quiet professionals. It. Me personally, I hate talking about myself. I hate it. I hate self promoting. But I want all my guys to have all the credit. Right. And having said that, every other guy is just like that. They don't want to talk about themselves, they don't want any credit, but they want their boys to get credit. And so that's just to our detriment that and I, I would never like, you know, thoroughly encourage anyone to just go on to something and start talking about things. He did fully get it, but at some point, you know, numbers are numbers and if guys don't know.

[A]

Right. I think it's, there's, there's a huge difference. And, and being you can, you can publicly be a quiet professional and I don't think that's an oxymoron at, at all for everything you, you just said, it's really clear when, when someone's out there basically self promoting.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And it's very, it's very evident when someone out there is just, you know, telling the stories that, that need to be told. You know, I think Pete Blaver is one of the, the best examples of that. One of the few guys from my unit that's, that's wrote a book that nobody cares about.

[B]

Yeah. It's crazy because I saw the episode with him and I'm like, who the.

[A]

Hell is this guy?

[B]

Yeah, like, he's super articulate.

[A]

He knows his.

[B]

Yeah, he was right on it.

[A]

It was like, and if this guy.

[B]

Should be talking everywhere, oh, I love that guy.

[A]

And if you ever read his book, it's just not a thing about him. He said, you know, it's not, there's not, there's not a whole lot of talks about missions. It's just lessons learned and, and leadership for him. But you can absolutely, you know, talk about, you know, where you came from and, and your unit and its history were a part of it and still very much be a quiet professional. So I can, I think it's a tightrope. It's a tightrope, but it can be done.

[B]

Yep. And the Internet's devious. They're clipping right now.

[A]

Oh for sure. But absolutely.

[B]

But yeah, it, yeah. At some point, like things need to be talked about and alone at dawn kind of. I guess maybe, maybe it jump started there.

[A]

Oh yeah.

[B]

But like I think it's still talked about matter of fact of combat control guys this and PJs that. But they don't really understand like who they are, where they come from. They just knew this is Air Force's ground based, you know, special operations unit. I think they're more emphasis on there and I think we wouldn't have that much of a recruiting issue if that were the case? Because, like, it's the Air Force and you get to do army shit and SEAL shit. Like, what's the better? Like, you get to go back to the hotel, right, and then come back out and do commando shit. Like.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And not a bad gig, dude. And on top of that, like, we're going on everything.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

That there. There isn't a thing that we're not going to go on. I think the only other unit that might beat us in that is maybe the 1 60th. Maybe we're neck and neck. But, like.

[A]

Yeah, but. But you know what? Even on that, I mean, they get. They get to be on it, but they get to be on it just long enough to be close to it and leave. I mean, there's. And then, of course, there's. There's one thing no one argues about from any Tier one unit, and that's. That's our admiration and love for the 1 60th. So I don't even necessarily have to say that, but. But there's a difference between. Of course it takes balls to be on a massively loud helicopter behind enemy lines and leaves, but, hey, but guys like me and you, you know, and the guys from the beach, when they leave, we're. We're the ones that are still on the ground and have to deal with that until we see them again. So even though they get to be on all the big operations, trust me, there's. And I'm sure they'll tell you there's. There's times where we're getting off the helicopter and they're like, wish I was with those guys. But don't worry, there's times they're flying off and we're looking back going, oh, I wish I was with those guys.

[B]

Those guys are awesome. I. I just actually watched. I was complaining about this in my head that, like, we don't get to see enough 1/60 guys on. On podcast. And lo and behold, my phone heard me and there was one of a guy. I can't remember his name. It was just recent. And dude, the amount of stories that guy had. Just one dude, I can only imagine like the rest of them.

[A]

Yeah. After having you on having a 160th guys is. Is. Is I think the only thing I'm. I'm. I'm missing at. At this point. Yeah. And it was good to see Mike Durant go on the. The. The Sean Ryan show until. Until his story, because that story will. Will Never get old.

[B]

Yeah. My dad was actually such an amazing story at Cliff Walcott's funeral, I believe, where they had, you know, the funeral procession going down the road, but it was slow rolling and they had every, just about every single 1 60th bird flying overhead. He said so is like one of the only times that like he was really, really tearing up. That thing was cool.

[A]

Would you. What are you doing? What are you doing now? What do you do now?

[B]

I don't know. It's funny, but I really, really don't know. So I. I'm working with a guy that we actually linked up a long time ago. Like my initial, one of my initial team trips when I got on the team back in 09, I believe it was a jump trip. And Mike was working for Magpul at the time.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

But they had Magpul dynamics and he was part of the airborne portion of it. So this was pre flight one type stuff. But we're still in the hunt for that kind of school and Magpul was providing it. Mike was a long time just jumper in general, but he also did a lot of test jumps. So he, he would be one of those guys that would purposely put in a. A malfunction is in his chute. He'd pull, it would happen and he would calculate what went wrong. Right. Like, or what's happening and then cut away and then pull another shoot.

[A]

Like someone's got to do that, but count me out.

[B]

Yeah. He has like tens of thousands of jumps and he's done a lot of crazy. So he was the lead instructor of that and met Mike. All right. And then later on down the road he started teaching long range shooting, etc. So when I got out, it's like, I really love distance shooting and got with Mike and I was like, hey man, let's. Let's start a school, start doing distance shooting. Well, Covid told you to go fuck yourself. So ammo was tough, travel was tough. We're like, well, what's one thing that everybody has an AR so we can teach fundamental shooting, you know, distance shooting with a five by six. So we started doing that distance carbine.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And really, really pushing out people's carbines out to 800, 900,000 meters, depending on what you have.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And so one, it was getting guys interested in what we were interested distance shooting. But at the same time it was showing guys like, this rifle is way more capable than you are.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

So you need to be aware of that. Like one for dangerous purposes of like if you just clack this round off at a 45 degree angle, it's going to hit something two and a half miles away. But also like maybe you need to work on your shooting skills a little more when it comes to distance shooting because you can absolutely hit an 800 meter target with a 13 and a half inch barrel. Like that's no good.

[A]

Yeah, it kills me sometimes. I get, I get a lot of questions about guns, gun manufacturers, gun types, barrels, barrel length, ammo, all this. And really the first, the first thing I want to start talking about is, you know, how accurate are you? Like they're so worried about how accurate the gun is. Yeah, most, most guns are more accurate than you. And so let's, let's, yeah. Buy. Don't get wrong. I mean I don't. There's no reason to ever buy something bottom shelf. But let's buy something middle of the road. Let's invest in some ammo and if you, once you, when you can outshoot that gun, you know, maybe let's, let's, let's talk then.

[B]

Yeah, Good thing about guns is generally they don't appreciate in value. So guns and ammo are probably like the best things you can buy. Jewelry, not so much guns and ammo. So you could probably resell that thing or you can just make it better, whatever.

[A]

Right? Exactly. Yeah, you can always make it better. Or hey, that's, that's, that's your first, that's your first gun.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Have to the. Is, is there any. Do you, do you currently go on right now and, and teach classes?

[B]

Yeah, we're, we're working on it because I took another contract. It's kind of busy on 30 off so I'm trying to figure balance that out with kids, family and that. But we were going pretty hard for the last three, two, three years. Yeah, it's super fun. I like seeing guys lose their minds.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Five, five, six isn't what, you know what grandpa is saying. It was like, yeah, 300 meters. That's not distance shooting. That's a layup.

[A]

I mean there's, there's a lot that's, I mean that's a whole episode on itself. But the, the amount we have learned ballistically.

[B]

Oh, it's crazy.

[A]

You know, guns have been around for hundreds of years, but really in the last 20 years and if you really want to get down to what's been proliferated to, to the rest of civilian community in the last decade, the advancements of it.

[B]

Yeah, it's good.

[A]

It's been and some of its advancements and some of it's just.

[B]

Understanding.

[A]

Understanding. Yeah, it's. It's been. It's been absolutely crazy. I haven't done this in a while, but I'm gonna put you on one last spot before. Before I let you out of the hot seat. You got a funny story for me?

[B]

Let me think. Oh, man.

[A]

We used to do this all the time on the last. On the. On the last podcast. It was always the final question. I haven't done that a long time.

[B]

I have a lot of funny stories.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But I don't want to tell them. So I've always had this. This dream. Do you know. You know vet tv, right?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Okay. So they really. We get it. But majority of the population is probably like, oh, well. I wanted to do one called Tear Tales. And it was going to be no, no big picture thing. Just all these little things like little skits that happen on target. Man, I. I have so many good ones, but I'm sure I'll offend massive amount of people, so maybe I'll steer away from that. Oh, so I got. Okay, I got a good one.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

This will embarrass the shit out of me. So we were in. In northern Iraq. We were doing stuff and we had to go out west to test out this new weapon system. Caveat this, like, God bless our commo guys because we get some stellar Internet while we're out there. And when you're out in an outstation kind of thing, like, there's no rules, like you can stream as many movies and download as many music or whatever, all you want. But to get to this other location, I had to go back to northern Iraq to our little headquarters area.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

I spent a few days there. And when I was there, you know, didn't change anything. I. Streaming all the movies and listening to all the music while I'm working out and texting everybody and all this stuff buying. I think it was that time of the year, so I was buying Christmas presents and just.

[A]

Yeah, just getting after it.

[B]

I'm at headquarters. I don't want to go into the main building because then I have to talk to people. I'm just waiting to get to the next place. So we get down to this other place and we have. We're mobile, but we have a mobile unit to be able to do secure comms on the phone. And I'm walking up the truck and the team leader hangs with the phone and we're like, yeah, we're all good. Target's good. Whatever, Blah Blah, blah. By the way, guys, any one of your phones or tablets or anything called Big Dick six. And, like, immediately I'm like, whoops. So why.

[A]

Why do you ask?

[B]

To go even further back, everyone knows Apocalypse now, the movie, right?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And the commander of the air cab unit, his call sign was Big Big Duke 6. Right.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And so my best friend, he kind of adopted that call sign, except he changed it to Big Dick six.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And so he would end up exercise. Whatever he was. He would. And, like, Big Dick six out. Like, we'd all go. So I thought it was funny. And Internet being what it is, you know, when you go on to your networks, you can see everyone's phone. I was like, I'm going to name mine Big Dick six. Right. It's me. Hilarious.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Except I didn't change it when I went overseas.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And so, yeah, they're like, yeah, Whoever is Big Dick 6 is, like, using up all the Internet. So, like, we're at outstations, there's no rules. But at headquarters, they have so many guys there. Like, you can't. You're subjected to so many time or whatever.

[A]

Right.

[B]

So I'm just in there watching movies, whatever. And they're like, yeah, like, actually, that's. That's my phone. He's like, that's your. I was like, yeah. He's like, I'll let him know. Like, okay, all right. Just let me know if anything's going wrong with it. So now, I don't know. It went kind of quiet, but, like, I'm pretty sure, like, that was the talk of the town for.

[A]

For the min. I Love it.

[B]

Big Dick 6.

[A]

It's always the stupid stuff. It's always the stupid stuff. Oh, Fred, thanks so much for. For coban for coming on. We'll do the live after this, but by the time this is released, you guys have already have known that if you're here all the way to this part of the episode, it means you like it. So please subscribe to the podcast. It does help. Thanks, guys.