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- [00:00]
A
Welcome back to another episode of the Tier One podcast. I'm your host, Brent Tucker, owner of FRCC. Go to FRCC Shop and use promo code Tier One to get 15% off the world's best coffee, cigars and bourbon.
- [00:16]
B
And I'm Drew Tucker, butane gas filler of torch lighters at first responder cigar, coffee and bourbon.
- [00:24]
A
Guys, join. Our Patreon is brought to you by Cobalt Kinetics.
- [00:28]
B
This is there. You will get behind the scenes content. You'll get a weapons forum, a fitness forum.
- [00:34]
A
There's incredible behind the scenes content you missed this week, so next time you won't miss it. Join the Patreon. And in the weapons forum, there's a Cobalt Kinetics weapons expert ready to answer all your weapons questions. And as always, this episode is brought to you by Human Performance TRT. Go to hp-trt.com and use promo code TIER1 to get 20% all of your testosterone and peptide needs. All right, Drew, let's do it. Welcome to the Tier one podcast. This is amazing. Dude, check this out. And with us Today we have Sergeant Major retired Mike Glover. 20 years of service, spent time as a Green Beret, spent time at the unit, helped stand up the new SIF company at tenth group. Was also in GRS and author of the book prepared a manual for surviving worst case scenarios. Welcome to show Mike.
- [02:05]
B
Thanks for having me, Brett.
- [02:06]
A
Absolutely, man. Super glad that, that you made it one of those things. You made it on short notice sometimes almost just like trying to coordinate hanging out with an old friend. It's just sometimes just works out on short notice and it never gets done. If you plan it.
- [02:23]
B
Yeah, absolutely.
- [02:24]
A
It's just. Life's weird like that. Yeah.
- [02:25]
B
Yeah. I think you gave me like three days notice and I was like, let's do this.
- [02:31]
A
I really, really appreciate it. Let's. Let's get to it. You're Florida, boy. Back to the gunshine state. So what made you join the military?
- [02:40]
B
So my old man was a combat arms guy, a military police officer. I was born in Fort Ord, California. They were stationed in Germany. He was stationed in Korea where he met my mom. And then he got out and settled at Port Orange, Florida. His mom, my grandma, was in Daytona beach. And he started working for the Department of Corrections. Wanted to be a highway patrolman. Never got that job and did a long career there. So it was always around me, the military. My uncle, his brother was in the Navy. My dad was an army guy. And so just seeing the example that they both set, it was kind of army Navy rivalry going on in the house. I knew from a very young age, as young as I can remember, that I was going in the army
- [03:31]
A
with a background like that, with your dad, you know, I just think of military service and then dealing with prisoners all day and keeping people in line. Did that carry over to him as a father or. Sometimes people come back home and they're the opposite of, you know, of what their work life is. Sometimes it carries over into. Into their personal life. Was he. Was he very a disciplined man? And carry that over to you?
- [03:59]
B
The complete opposite, man. My dad was a big old. My dad. Let me give you an example. One time I got in trouble, and I was talking to your brother about this out in the garage. My grandma wanted to whip me with a switch. I did something, and he said, I'll handle it. And he pulled me back into the room at my grandma's house, and he took off his belt, and he said, when I hit the. When I hit the dresser, I want you to cry out. And so he did it a few times. And there's a bathroom offset to that. He walked in the bathroom and put some water on my face and said, you better pretend real good. And we walked out. I thought to myself, like, man, my old man is a. He doesn't discipline for anything, and he's a teddy bear. And he was a good father, man. He was. He was nurturing, and he didn't like the discipline. My. My grandma was a disciplinary. My mom was the disciplinary.
- [04:54]
A
So at what point did military service become an option for you?
- [04:59]
B
So I graduated high school early, like a year or two early, and I kind of dropped out. Went to community college at Daytona Beach Community College. Got my high school diploma. And at 16 years old, I had options because I was done. But you couldn't come in the army until 17.
- [05:19]
A
Yeah.
- [05:19]
B
And. And if you came in at 17, you had to have your parents permission. That was an easy permission. Slipped a son. And so I went into the delayed entry program right when I turned 17. And then September of that year, I was born in January. September of that year, I was delayed entry, and I was going into the Army September 3rd of 1997. 17 years old.
- [05:42]
A
You have any brothers or sisters?
- [05:43]
B
None. Oh, well, I have a half. Half sisters. Two half sisters.
- [05:47]
A
So how'd your dad react to. To essentially losing a son to the military?
- [05:54]
B
He didn't react at all. I don't remember any reaction. Yeah, I think he was just like, good luck, you know, he. He knew it was time I was getting in trouble. I was bored, and I wanted to do something with my life. And he thought it was a good thing. My grandma, I remember, was more hesitant. My mom a little bit more hesitant.
- [06:12]
A
No.
- [06:12]
B
But it was time to go.
- [06:14]
A
Yeah. What'd you sign up for?
- [06:16]
B
So my original contract was 11x ray.
- [06:19]
A
Okay.
- [06:20]
B
And I actually remember telling people that on boards, like, what you sign up for, and they always hear 18x ray. Right. Because 18x rays. Familiar. But back in the day, in the 90s, they had 11x ray, where they decided your path, whether it was Bravo, Charlie, Mike, or hotel. Different infantrymen. Right, right. They decided it in basic training and advanced individual training. But I had an option 40 contract. I had a Ranger contract. Well, when I went to basic training, they selected our entire platoon to be a hotels. And what they didn't tell us, me and about five other guys, is Ranger battalion and Ranger regiment didn't have hotels. So when we got at the end of osut one stop unit training, they. They came, the rise came. And me and, like, five other guys are like, what's going on? We're supposed to be in that formation. And they said, no, man, you're. You guys are needs of the army. Which is what 11x ray or 18x ray really means. It's needs of the Army.
- [07:22]
A
What. And what is the hotel identifier?
- [07:24]
B
So hotel is like heavy weapons. It's the infantryman that learns the 50 cal, the mark 19 at the time. And you learn mobility. You're basically a mobile infantryman. And so for one stop unit training, advanced individual training, it was awesome because we didn't have to walk.
- [07:42]
A
Right.
- [07:42]
B
We set up blocking positions while the guys marched through the woods on patrol. And it was a real easy job. But I didn't know that we were going to be kept out of Ranger regiment at the time.
- [07:54]
A
Yeah. Oh, man, that's. I'm sure that was somewhat disappointing.
- [07:58]
B
It was heartbreaking because that airborne Ranger was how I wanted to kick off my career. And that's in the 90s. The hard thing was there wasn't anything going on. I mean, we're talking, you know, five years, four years post Somalia, Mogadishu, and there wasn't a lot going on. So basically they were just trying to fill slots.
- [08:20]
A
I've said it before, if. Well, two things. I've also said if I could redo my career, I wouldn't change anything because everything worked out the way it was supposed to work out. And I do believe that. But on the flip side of that, to be selfish or. I said I Wish I'd have grown up in Ranger Battalion. I still would have went SF and done that job. But I just. I think there's something about. I just have a lot of reverence for that unit. Solid foundation, the culture of it. It's just the best thing a young man could be indoctrinated with. Now, you usually say the word. You know, indoctrinated seems almost like a bad thing, but you could be indoctrinated with good things as well.
- [09:00]
B
Yeah. The core curriculum of Ranger Battalion, the regiment as a whole, especially the evolution through the GWAT where they became a unilateral fighting force. It was super impressive. The small unit leadership at the, you know, team leader level, the squad leaders, the platoon sergeants, everybody up the chain of command were some of the best leaders I've ever experienced in the infantry or, you know, a special operations organization.
- [09:28]
A
Yeah, absolutely. So where'd you end up going then for one Ranger regiment?
- [09:33]
B
Where.
- [09:33]
A
Where. Where Big army decided they needed Mike Glover.
- [09:35]
B
Yeah. So I. So I. I got this wrong. I. I've actually been telling this story wrong, and. And it really is irrelevant because I never went to the unit anyway. But I thought they gave me orders to 25th Infantry Division. I remember that. But my mom sent me a picture last week of me getting my blue cord, and I had a 10th Mountain patch on my shoulder. So it wasn't 25th ID it was 10th Mountain. But my uncle was a sergeant major in 18th Airborne Corps. He grew up in the 82nd. I grew up with them kind of part time in North Carolina. And he had a lot of pool. You know, the army at that time, even today is a lot about who you know. And so I remember on CQ or staff duty, we had already graduated. We already got our uniforms. We were ready to go to our units. We're about three days out from graduation. I called him and I said, hey, uncle, they screwed me over my option 40 contract. And I said, this is a big issue. I don't know what to do. He said, let me make some calls. So about two days out from graduation, they bring me into an office, and the company commander is like, I don't know who you know, but somebody called down here above me and told me to tell you to go to the old guard recruiter. And so I had no. I had no idea what the old guard was. I walk in the room, and there's this guy there named Sergeant Culbersum. And I'm calling him out now because he's probably retired or dead, but Culberson said to me, your uncle was my platoon sergeant in Korea, and he took care of me, so now I'm going to take care of you. And there was a overweight civilian sitting at the door. And he walks in, and he goes, are you Mike Duke's nephew? I said, yes. Yes, sir, I am. And I had orders in front of me on the. On the table, and it said 11 Bravo or 11 Hotel. He walks up to the paper, he crosses out 11 Hotel. And he writes, 11 Bravo. And he initials it. And I'm like, what? And he's like, you're going to the Old Guard. And I'm like, what's the Old Guard? And they said, the only way we could change your MOS Is if we send you to the Old Guard. And you could put a 4187 to go to Ranger Battalion, which is a piece of paper back in the day, this mythical piece of paper that can get your orders changed. So I. He. He signs that, hands me orders back. I go to the company first sergeant, and he's pissed. He's like, what the hell is going on? Who are you? Who do you know?
- [12:00]
A
Yeah.
- [12:01]
B
But they didn't question it.
- [12:02]
A
Yeah.
- [12:02]
B
And they. They did the right thing. And I went to Fort Myer, Virginia, to the Old Guard, which is for people listening to this. It's a ceremonial unit that does ceremonies in Arlington National Cemetery. And I did not want to go there.
- [12:18]
A
I can. I can imagine that. In fact, I. I remember being in our training course, and you being from finding out you were from the Old Guard, and we were either getting ready to go to D.C. or we were there. We may have been doing a tour at the. At the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier. I can't remember which. Which one it was, but I do remember this. You started telling me stories about the Old Guard and, like, the. If you want to call it hazing, like, the hazing that. That would go on and the prep and the things they would put you through before they'd even let you, you know, be seen in. In public. And they were. There were wild stories to me, because no one really knows about the Old Guard. I mean, he told those stories. Again, we'll. We'll get into all your cool stories here in a little bit. But those. But those type of stories are fascinating because no one. No one knows about that.
- [13:13]
B
Yeah.
- [13:13]
A
You know, we talk about a history of. Of discipline, and we talk about that in Ranger Regiment. Like, oddly enough, you got that at the Old Guard, because they do not mess around.
- [13:23]
B
Yeah. It was a It was a crazy experience because when I got there, I had, I had no idea what it was. I was the shortest one at six one in the, in the old guard. My, the platoon I was in, you had to be actually 62 or above. And then first platoon was 64 or above. And all these dudes were college athletes, like D1 athletes. So like a weekend of drinking and boozing and hanging out in the barracks was like hanging out with UFC fighters. I mean, it was, it was wild. And I was the littlest one. My uncle said to me, he said, hey, look, I'm going to try to get you in a ranger battalion. What I need you to do is I need you to go to every school and every opportunity, take it. So I got my expert infantry badge as a E1. I went to airborne and ranger school. And then he was a tomb guard as well. Like an old school tomb guard in the 80s and the 90s. He came back as a platoon sergeant, as the assarant of the guard, actually. He said, go to the tomb of the unknowns. And I said, what, what is that? And he goes, just talk to this dude, Sergeant first class Thomas, and he's gonna, he's gonna let you try out. And I went down there and I did a two week tty tryout, was the only one who made it, and then got put on a relief. And it took me nine months to get my badge. But being a tomb guard for so long and, and doing that thing was the most difficult thing I'd ever done in the military. I believe it by far. Wearing a wool uniform, doing the walk, all the discipline required, and it really did shape the rest of my career and discipline because I knew mentally at least that I can get through anything if I could. If I could walk in a wool uniform 100 degrees in front of 2000 people watching the, the, the changing of the guard, I could do anything. It also humbled me because I realized standing in the middle of Arlington National Cemetery where so many people lost their lives pre g what you know, like rangers from Mogadishu, Delta force operators from the building coming in to the tomb quarters, getting a tour, I was like, there's something here. And that reverence really taught me about discipline.
- [15:30]
A
If any listener here hasn't been to the tomb of the unknown soldier, you have to go as an American, like, it's, it's just powerful. And I've been several times and want to say the, the more mature and older I got, I was in on it the first time. But there's One of the last times I went, I had. I had this. This thought. And I mean, that's what the world and a lot of Americans get to see of our military. They don't get to go to our bases. They get to see our men in uniform doing that right there. And it. And it better be our best. And it's just. It seems so minuscule to some degree. You're just walking, spinning a rifle. You know, I can understand how people would be upset to do that, but the snapshot that hundreds of thousands of Americans and foreigners are going to get from that is that that is the most professional army that they may ever see. And if we'll do that for an unknown deceased soldier at that level, imagine what our military will do for our living brothers beside your, shoulder to shoulder at war.
- [16:43]
B
Yeah, that's a beautiful point. Because, you know, being so young and being there. I was 18 years old when I got my Tomb guard identification badge. When I was there, part of the routine was obviously guarding the Tomb of the Unknowns, which has been done since 1948, 24 hours a day. But I would have to go down and change into a polo shirt and khakis and walk back up and find groups of people to talk to about the tomb quarters. And given the history and the briefs, and they would just be in shock that you're the guy that was just up there walking. I'm like, yeah, that was me. And I just had it. I mean, being so young, I feel like that kind of pressure where they're foreign dignitaries, they're tourists looking at you, and you're representing the United States army in the country. It was just the right amount of pressure that I needed at that age, because if I didn't do that, who knows what I would have done, you know?
- [17:43]
A
You know, it was. It was either. It was either you or someone else. I have to imagine it was you that told me this story, that one of the things that they would have to do while trying to get, you know, their. Their certification, they just be woken up randomly or just be told at random times, just a name or. Or a Medal of Honor winner, and you had to run with a sheet of paper. Do you know what I'm talking about?
- [18:10]
B
I told you that. Yeah.
- [18:10]
A
Okay, good. Tell.
- [18:11]
B
Tell that story 23 years ago.
- [18:13]
A
Yeah, so I forgot that. I still have forgot that to this day.
- [18:16]
B
That's crazy. I haven't heard that. But yeah, I. I remember telling that story. So part of the knowledge base that you had to have is 26 pages of memorized knowledge about tomb guard and Arlington National Cemetery history. And they would wake you up at random times in the middle of the night, and they would say, hey, you have to go get, you know, Joe Lewis's etching off of his tombstone. And then I believe he was buried in section 7A, if, if memory serves me right. But, but you'd wake up and you'd run down there and you'd find and identify his headstone and get the etching. And that's because every single piece of information that you memorized, you were intended after your guard duty to be able to regurgitate and explain the history of the sacrifice that these men made. And that's wild. I haven't heard that in 23 years. It's been a while.
- [19:10]
A
It's. It's crazy what my mind can retain.
- [19:13]
B
Wow.
- [19:13]
A
And it's crazy what I have forgotten. At the same time. It's both impressive.
- [19:18]
B
You triggered a whole bunch of Q course trauma
- [19:23]
A
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- [20:25]
B
So I never. The 40, the 4187 never worked because at that time, the needs of the army there was a downsizing actually, and so nobody was moving anywhere. They weren't doing lateral transfers, which changed drastically, obviously during the G WAT you can go anywhere. And. And so September 3rd of 01, I ended up basically telling the command sergeant major, Command sergeant major Butts, who was the military district of Washington Command sergeant major who was buddies with my uncle. My uncle called him and said, hey, you need to keep this guy in. And I was at E5. I was. I had done all the things that you could do and. Except for the things that I wanted to do.
- [21:08]
A
Right.
- [21:09]
B
And he said. He said, what do you want, Glover? What can I do to keep you in? And when I went in that meeting at the age of 21 years old, I said to myself, I want sniper school and HALO en Route to 3rd Ranger Battalion. And I said. I literally said that and was like, that's what I want. And he said to me, and I found out later, in hindsight, after going to free fall and all this stuff, he said, glover, he said. I think he said, mike, Mike, Free fall is not a retention or reenlistment option. And I can't send you. You're. You're like, you're not in a lurse unit. You're. You're going to range retirement. I could for sure get you sniper school. Big, big Army Fort Benning sniper school. En route to Third Bat. I said, sergeant Major, that's. That's my demand list. And he's like, well, I don't know what to do for you. So I left and I drove away. September 3rd of 2001. I ets.
- [22:02]
A
That's crazy.
- [22:03]
B
Yeah. And obviously a week later, the world changed.
- [22:06]
A
Yeah.
- [22:07]
B
And my buddy jumped into Rhino DZ with Third Bat, who. I went to Ranger school. Who was in the old guard with me that was supposed to go with me to third Bat, man.
- [22:18]
A
Well, there's a. There's a Bible verse that. That says, you have not because you ask not. Hey, you got. So you sent it.
- [22:27]
B
Yep.
- [22:27]
A
You have to ask. And I love that. I. And we. We've both seen this post military that. And even in the military and post military that some people. Will it be your next job? Or when they ask you what do you want, tell them. Tell them something more than you think they would say yes to. The worst thing they can do is say no. I think. I think we undersell ourselves a lot just because of the type of people we are. We want to give back more than we get, and we ask small things. And, you know, I believe there are people leaving the military that take a paycheck smaller than they. They could have got because they just undersell themselves. They just didn't ask. Just ask.
- [23:15]
B
I. I, at the time, was petrified to ask that question, but I actually thought it was a cool crossroad for me because I said, look, if he's. If they want to keep me in, then they need to be able to give me what I want. And, and I'm asking for service. I'm asking to be put in the ship per se, because I want to be more invested and involved. I wanted combat arms. I wanted the infantry. I wanted a Ranger regiment. And I didn't get it, unfortunately. And then, you know, obviously a week later, the entire world shifts and changes and then, you know, the rest is history for me. Because the only thing I was doing was trying to get back on active duty.
- [23:52]
A
Yeah. Right after Sep. You're out a week.
- [23:55]
B
A week. I ets September 3rd was on. Was actually, no, actually I didn't ets September 3rd. I was on terminal leave during 9 11. So I was still active duty, but there was no stop loss going on in the old Guard at the time.
- [24:09]
A
Okay.
- [24:10]
B
And I had transferred into The National Guard 30th Brigade, 30th Heavy Armored separate Brigade in North Carolina. Long story short, I, I found a way to get in to selection through this SFRE program in the Guard.
- [24:29]
A
Yep.
- [24:29]
B
And I, I drilled with Glenarm, Maryland, I think is the headquarters of 20th Group at the time that, that I went there. I did. When I showed up, they're like, okay, he's Ranger qualified. And they ran a mini selection for me. In fact, they did it. It was really cool because I was the only one that was there. And it was 2001. They knew the, the war was kicking off, so they put me with one cadre, an SF long tab dude. He. He did a 12 miler with me. He did land navigation with me, and he did a swim test with me. And he's like, this dude's ready. And I went to selection, like right after that. I mean, it was a while for the process, but I was like, he immediately signed off on me going to selection, which was real cool.
- [25:14]
A
That is. I love that especially. And we have that in common. You know, we. We both got our long tabs through 20th group.
- [25:21]
B
Yeah. The best deal, by the way, is a hidden secret. It is 19th and 20th group for sure.
- [25:28]
A
Absolutely. So what. When did you get to the Q course? Or we'll call it selection 0203.
- [25:36]
B
I think it was 0203 time frame. And then we went through the Q course together, same time frame. And right after that, I got selected. In fact, can I say that you were an echo? Do you want to keep that class?
- [25:54]
A
I. I think it's out there. We got to dig for it, but you don't have to dig for it anymore. It's okay. No one's gonna Come ask me to fix their radio anymore or fill their radio. Yeah, so I'm past that.
- [26:05]
B
You had computer guys doing that.
- [26:06]
A
I don't have to go make a quarter length wave antenna anymore or send an ALE HF shot off the atmosphere.
- [26:14]
B
So that was my worst fear because they, you know, they, they take smart dudes who they think are going to pass both the Delta and the Echo course and they put those guys with the higher aptitudes in those positions and they made me an Echo. And I legitimately did this. But I. Back in the day when we went to the Q course, everything was paper driven. There was no digital really anything. Right.
- [26:35]
A
Right.
- [26:36]
B
And so I had my orders and conveniently for me, that big black government pin, I changed the E to a
- [26:45]
A
B. I love it.
- [26:46]
B
And, and I did so in line like they were like, I want all the bravos in this line, all the echoes in this line. I changed my orders because I had no choice in it sat in line. And when the cadre was going through the names and he said, I don't got your name. That's weird. I said, I'm not sure, I don't know.
- [27:02]
A
I just played dumb and blame it on 20th group. 20th group.
- [27:06]
B
Yeah, 20th group. They told me I was a Bravo when I left and they just chalked me up and, and the entire Q course. I thought for sure I was going to be compromised. But I was a bra. They made me a Bravo and I went through as a Bravo good few
- [27:19]
A
bold maneuvers as a young soldier.
- [27:21]
B
It was scary.
- [27:22]
A
I like it.
- [27:22]
B
I was scared. I could not be an echo though. I just, it scared. Scared me more than anything.
- [27:27]
A
It wasn't fun. It was not fun.
- [27:30]
B
Morse code is what scared me. I heard about Morse code.
- [27:32]
A
So my class was the second. Second class to not do Morse code. And I was nervous about having to do Morse code because when I was in the Q course at the very beginning, guys were still doing Morse code. So when I got there, they had finally replaced it with a Microsoft networking class which was much more useful.
- [27:54]
B
Was it still a gate? Like it was like a go no go gate?
- [27:57]
A
Yeah, oh yeah it was. And like anything else the military does, they made it, you know, they, they crunched a 12 week class into three weeks and made it way harder than, than it really needed to be. But it was a good class because that's something we'll actually use because we're setting up options, we are setting up networks, whether it be a local network and. But even with that, I always said I was a Radio Echo, not a computer Echo. And luckily, the Delta on our team went to. Has a. Had a degree in computer science and always had to bribe him to fix the network that I. That I screwed up overseas. So I hated being.
- [28:39]
B
Oh, man, I hated it so much.
- [28:42]
A
And I was the only echo to my team for. For most of my ODA times to make it. To make it worse. But you go right through the Q course.
- [28:51]
B
Yep. Went straight through. French was the hardest part of the Q course. Learning a foreign language, especially after, you know, the. The pipeline has kind of changed. The organization structure has changed a lot. But when we went through. You did Sear last.
- [29:08]
A
Yeah.
- [29:09]
B
And you did language school right before that. And you could fail either one. So you went through Suts Robin Sage, your MOS training. And then you can get to a gate where there were academic failures in language school, which scared me because I. I didn't. I'm. I'm half Asian and I'm going likely to the Middle east. And they got me in French language school.
- [29:31]
A
Right.
- [29:32]
B
And I'm like, this is not working sitting well with me. I didn't have the mindset for it, but I got through it. And then I went to Sears School at the very end. We even dropped guys from Sears School that went through the whole Q course.
- [29:43]
A
And that was a weird time because I don't believe. I don't believe they've done this for a while now. But as you just said, you go through, you know, selection. Sut Mos, Robin Sage. And then we got our Green Beret.
- [29:58]
B
Yep.
- [29:58]
A
But no long tab.
- [29:59]
B
No tab.
- [30:00]
A
You still had the swick piss pot of excellence on your shoulder.
- [30:03]
B
Yep.
- [30:04]
A
And. But you. But you least had your beret.
- [30:06]
B
Yeah.
- [30:06]
A
And you went to language school with your Green Beret and you went to Sear School, you know, owning that Green Beret. But it wasn't until you passed those that you actually got the. To sew the. The arrowhead airborne.
- [30:17]
B
And you got your Yarboro knife and your. In your tab.
- [30:20]
A
When they took away the Yarboro knife. Quit doing that. I. That was such a big deal.
- [30:25]
B
When did they do that?
- [30:26]
A
Years ago. So someone finally came out and got some through a nonprofit and replaced it with a, like a V22 dagger.
- [30:34]
B
Okay.
- [30:35]
A
Like knife. But it's still no Yarbrough knife. That Yarbro knife, it's right there.
- [30:39]
B
Yeah, it's.
- [30:40]
A
It was. It was. I. Yeah, it's got my. My serial number to it.
- [30:44]
B
That's.
- [30:44]
A
I couldn't wait to get that Yarboro knife.
- [30:47]
B
I was most excited about the knife
- [30:48]
A
and all the money they put into us in training.
- [30:51]
B
Yeah.
- [30:52]
A
You're gonna take that away?
- [30:53]
B
The one thing. Yeah, it's a representation of like that period of your time and sacrifice that, you know, a lot of guys carry that in combat.
- [31:03]
A
Yeah.
- [31:04]
B
You know, I gave mine to my parents and they, they hung it up in a shadow box.
- [31:08]
A
My original Green Beret they issued me, which was floppy and fuzzy and horrible. My dad has that. It's in his office. And I did, I carried that Yarboro knife. Not always with me on missions. It's been on a few missions, but it was always in a tough box and it always came overseas.
- [31:27]
B
Oh, yeah.
- [31:28]
A
Just in case.
- [31:29]
B
Yeah. That's awesome.
- [31:30]
A
I don't. And here's a, here's a great story about the Arbor knife. When they were in Tora Bora and One of the ODAs was there, Rumsfeld gets on the line and basically tells him and says, figuratively speaking, I want bin Laden. Bin Laden's head on a platter. And they went back and they got the team sergeant or someone from that team went back, got an ice chest and his Yarborough knife, just in case.
- [31:57]
B
That's awesome.
- [31:58]
A
Right? Yeah. So, yeah, it's, it's just a lot of history behind it. But anyway, the. Was it hard? Did you end up going back to 20th group or did you go active duty straight from you transfer during the Q course or right afterwards?
- [32:15]
B
Yeah, I did some slicky boy stuff. I, I was all about like, look, I had this vision in my head when we were going through the Q course because we were watching the videos, you know, the invasion of Afghanistan, invasion of Iraq, and it felt like we were missing the train. And that burdened all of us. I remember it. And there was only a few of us who had combat with like the 82nd, 173rd. And they did the initial evasion and were immediately dumped into the Q course with us. But I, I, I knew I wanted to go to combat immediately. So I kind of shopped around and found out that third group was going. I found their playbook and they were due to rip in about two weeks before we graduated. So I walked over to the Battalion headquarters of 3rd Group and I did a slicky boy move where back then you had a paragraph in line. And a paragraph in line was basically the sequence number of how you got orders to anywhere. They tracked everything by, by paragraph in line. And so I went to the warrant officer's office of third Group and just so happened he Wasn't there. And there was this E5 there. And I bribed this E5 and said, hey man, I have to have orders for third group. And he said, yeah, I can cut that, but I can't do that without the warrant officer here. And I'm like, dude, you have to hook me up. And he did. He hooked me up with a paragraph in line. Now here's the crazy part because I was out for that period of time, even though I was activated to go through the Q course.
- [33:42]
A
Right.
- [33:44]
B
I had to go back to basically 30th AG. I had to in process the big army. So he gave me a paragraph in line. I had to go back. At this point I was in North Carolina. I had to go to Raleigh, North Carolina to the in processing station. They literally nope, nobody knew because I was in civilians. I had to do the duck walk. Like dress down to your underwear and do the duck walk with kids. And so I caught on to the next day I came in uniform and they're like, what, you're a staff sergeant? Yeah, I'm like, you're a Green Beret. And I had all my stuff on and they're like, dude, why didn't you not tell us? I was like, I didn't know. And so the whole time I was doing like the eye test, all the, the duck walk, all touch your knees, all that stuff.
- [34:27]
A
Not just that, you have your eib,
- [34:28]
B
you got your short my tomb guard badge. They're like, who the right.
- [34:34]
A
Yeah.
- [34:34]
B
And. And so I in processed and then and probably pissed off 20th group because they never knew about it.
- [34:41]
A
Yeah. So again, funny because we were there at the same time, obviously went through the same things. And as soon as you said that we've, I've mentioned that before. Everyone during that period of time there are guys that were studying language on their off time so they could try to clip out of language school. So. Because we all thought we were going to miss the war. Yeah, it was our biggest fear. Our biggest fear wasn't going to war. Our biggest fear was missing the war. We had such a great, great group of guys.
- [35:12]
B
Yeah, we did.
- [35:12]
A
In our, in our Q, they went on legends.
- [35:15]
B
Yeah.
- [35:15]
A
They went on to do legendary things. And little did we know the guys in that Q course probably went on to take the brunt of the G, what for a decade or more of just non stop combat deployments. And those beginning deployments, don't get me wrong, you always want to be on invasion.
- [35:37]
B
Yeah.
- [35:37]
A
But you know, that type of combat was limited and reserved for the few that got to be in the right places, you know, by the time we got out there, really in the combat deployment circulation of O5, it's surge time and everybody's getting after.
- [35:52]
B
Game on.
- [35:53]
A
Yeah.
- [35:53]
B
Yeah. 060708. Game on.
- [35:56]
A
So I tried to go to third group. I've never told this story because kind of irrelevant, but I tried to go on. I tried to strap hang with third group. I was gonna leave 20th group, but I tried to strap hang with, with third group because they were leaving next, just like you said. And I had a, had a meeting with a battalion sergeant major, you know, to place me somewhere. And he basically ended up saying, hey, we're full. We'll take you, but I'll, I'll put you on a B team for sure. And you know, maybe you can make your way down to an oda. And I wasn't real happy about that. So I called 20th group and told them and they were like, hey, here's what we're gonna do for you. We're gonna send you, we got a team going to South America. Go down to South America for just a few months. It'll be good. It'll be a good experience for you. We'll send you to dive school and then 2nd Battalion, 20th Group AT has a Afghanistan rotation right after that. So we'll keep you busy and you'll get your Afghanistan rotation, you know, within, you know, within four to six months.
- [37:01]
B
Wow.
- [37:01]
A
And you'll get those two things. And I was like, said, all right, I'll, I'll take the sure thing and of being overseas with an oda.
- [37:09]
B
And you went to dive school too?
- [37:10]
A
And I went to dive school too. Yeah. So I almost went. Not, not permanently, but almost strap pig with, with third group on that, on that same rotation.
- [37:18]
B
Well, you showed up with a dive bubble too. I mean, that's, that's a pretty big feat. Dive school back in our day was the most gate kept school probably in the military.
- [37:29]
A
Of all the schools I've done, dive school is the only school that at some point I thought to myself, if I don't make it, I ain't coming back. This is, this is a one and done school for me.
- [37:42]
B
I've heard that.
- [37:42]
A
I think I was the oldest school ever. Yeah, I went to West Virginia twice.
- [37:46]
B
Yeah.
- [37:46]
A
And SFAS was kind of a good time.
- [37:50]
B
Yeah.
- [37:50]
A
You know, West Virginia was kind of a good time.
- [37:52]
B
Yeah.
- [37:53]
A
But they're big boy schools and they're on you and you don't know the standard, so you don't know if you're crushing it. You don't know if you're barely passing it. You just hope you're passing it. But, you know, to compare the two, because people ask me sometimes about West Virginia and, And Fort Bragg, they're essentially the same selection to us because we don't. Because you have to give a hundred percent at both.
- [38:17]
B
Yeah.
- [38:18]
A
They feel the same to you. But I might have crushed the Fort Bragg selection and just barely passed the West Virginia selection. But you don't. You don't know the standards. You have no idea how you're doing. So you just got to give it all.
- [38:30]
B
Yeah.
- [38:30]
A
The whole time. So it's kind of a weird thing to do.
- [38:33]
B
It's like sniper school. I thought about this before. You know, Sodic was a school where everybody who goes to it, just like dive school. You're. You're all qualified. You're a Green Berets, you're special operations guys. Your Rangers, you know, unit guys, go to Sodic and you're like. And there's gates. And you're like, if you can't train a Green Beret to be a sniper, what does that say about the schoolhouse? But you have to have those gates because there has to be a standard, you know.
- [39:00]
A
Right.
- [39:02]
B
Yeah.
- [39:02]
A
Not. Not too long. You know, after, after we graduated, of course, everyone feels like they. They've heard this story before, like things got easy after us, but. But for us, there's. I can at least defend it. Although we were surging and we were getting bigger Green Beret numbers passing numerically. But our selection numbers ballooned as well. We were having 3, 4, 500 guys show up to SFAs. That was unheard of. They used to have 80 and 90 guys show up to Selection.
- [39:38]
B
Yep.
- [39:38]
A
So the, the percentages never, never dropped. And I've said this before. I'm actually really glad that that was the Q course in the military that, that I knew. I only knew a post 911 military. And every cadre was dead serious about training standards because they knew you were going to go to war.
- [40:01]
B
Yeah.
- [40:01]
A
And heaven forbid you go to war with them. And they didn't. Or their teammates. And they didn't hold the standard.
- [40:08]
B
Yeah.
- [40:08]
A
So we really got the screws put to us. And I loved it. I loved. It's what I wanted.
- [40:12]
B
Yeah, same. I feel that same way because I remember our instructors. Most of them had come back from rotations in group, and so they were teaching real lessons learned from the field. And, and just like in the unit, they were. They were getting real time Feedback of ttps that were changing on the fly. You know, these techniques or tactics that we're adapting to. And I remember we were getting briefed high level, like they would have, you know, Command Sergeant Major or a 7th Group or Swix Heart Major that would come in and do a PowerPoint brief on the evolving g what and new techniques that the enemy was using. Which I thought was really cool because we all knew looking at each other that every one of us was going to be deep in the gwat, in the war.
- [40:58]
A
But there, there was a time not too long after us this, this bad culture that after talking to people is just for a short time, but still it just wasn't good where they said, hey, trust the selection process. If these are the guys we selected, then if anyone fails after this, then it's on the instructors for being bad instructors essentially. And I was like, that's not how it works. Because, you know, our phase two, we, we lost another third or half the class to some teams at phase two. And deservingly so, like, yeah, I think
- [41:32]
B
every team lost three or four dudes. Every single 12 man, team three or four guys cut.
- [41:37]
A
I hate that you had to go to phase two. Even back then I was an advocate for this. If you have a Ranger tab, I don't believe that you should have to go to phase two.
- [41:45]
B
Yeah. Travis Denman, who lives up in Idaho now, he's retired. He had just come out of first group. He was my instructor. And I remember the civilian counterpart because remember they had a military guy in the civilian. The civilian counterpart was not even a tab guy. He was a Vietnam vet.
- [42:02]
A
Okay.
- [42:03]
B
And he was respected, but he just didn't know war like Denman knew war. And Travis, he had a scroll from Mogadishi. He wasn't on the ground October 3rd, but he, he was very, he was there in the, in the AO and had a lot of experience in Ranger battalion. What he did is he used me and another guy, I'll just call him Fink, you know him from, from your, your time in the unit. But Fink and me basically ran the show and he basically used us as ad hoc instructors. He's like, hey, you guys know what to do. Just teach these guys. Go out and teach them ambush. And we're like, okay. But you're right, it was, it was kind of weird, but I think it was very powerful because like we had an X rays, the first classes of X rays. And unlike guys like you who had military experience, these guys had not a clue. Right.
- [42:54]
A
The X ray Program was weird. And, and at that time especially.
- [42:58]
B
Yeah.
- [42:58]
A
And I'll tell you what was weird about it. In fact, we, we just, we just said his name. Anders Johansson, which was the greatest guys I ever worked with in my life.
- [43:06]
B
Amazing guy.
- [43:09]
A
Gosh. I only hesitate to say some of their names because so many of them ended up at the unit and they were 18x rays. And so some of the problem was some of the best guys in our class were 18x rays.
- [43:22]
B
Yep.
- [43:23]
A
Unfortunately, most of the bad guys in our class were also 18x rays.
- [43:29]
B
Very true. Yeah.
- [43:30]
A
And those guys made all the 18x ray program look bad. But the x ray, the 18x ray program was very successful. They put some of the best Green Berets in our time that went through 18. 18x rays.
- [43:42]
B
That's right.
- [43:42]
A
It was just a, a quality control kind of issue.
- [43:46]
B
You got extremes for sure.
- [43:48]
A
If you've ever been to any of my tactical training classes, then you know how adamant I am about the use of white light and the importance of a quality high powered tactical light. That's why I use cloud defensive tack lights. You can't hit what you can't see and neither can the bad guys. Clearly identify your target and simultaneously overwhelm his vision with hundreds of and even thousands of lumens. Get serious about defending yourself and your family. Go to clouddefensive.com and use promo code tier one to get 30% off your order. That's right, 30%. You won't find a better light than this and you won't find a better deal than this. When you finagled your way over to third group, what, what team did you, did you end up on?
- [44:36]
B
I went to 2nd Battalion, Charlie Company right next to Bravo Company. To B2.3 the.
- [44:42]
A
Yep.
- [44:43]
B
And I was in Charlie Company. I was on the mountain team. They actually tried to put me on a Marops team. I was there for like a month and something happened where they had a backfill six six which is three, six six at the time. And I deployed to Afghanistan like right out the gate. I mean we went, we went to Naray fire based Naray in 05 right out the gate and I spent. It was supposed to be a six month trip but because of Red Wings and because of all the things that were going on, that was a pretty bad trip. It was a good trip for work, it was just bad trip for casualties. It winded up being a nine month rotation for us.
- [45:20]
A
And you want to talk about just our careers worked out the way they should have. One of the Good things that even though, like I said, the earlier deployments may have or may not have been as eventful as the ones that we were about to go on, for me and you who showed up to our first deployment, we got to deploy with other guys. Sure, they only may have had one or two deployments. Some may have had as many as three. But they had those lessons learned. We didn't have to learn it. That's right. They. Now we. We continued to refine those at a high level here in just a few years.
- [45:56]
B
Yep.
- [45:57]
A
But we got that kickstart by being next to guys are like, hey, I've. We've. I've been here before. I can. I have the lay of the land. I know what to do. And it helped us. We didn't have to start from zero the way they did.
- [46:09]
B
Yeah, it's a good point. All the guys on my team, Ben Bitner, the captain, the team sergeant, Willie, all of them had like BSM with these because they were in the thick of it. No. 4 and got some serious gunfights. And so as a organization, Charlie Company, I mean the battalion, Alpha Company and Charlie Company was a short battalion because B23 was kind of cut out, carved out of it.
- [46:34]
A
Right.
- [46:34]
B
But both companies, I think Ochsner was the guy who was killed in that 04 rotation. He was killed in IED. They all had lessons learned that lent itself to our survivability. And I learned, you know, OJT was real easy for us because all those dudes were in the thick of it the rotation prior.
- [46:53]
A
Yeah. The does we. Did you any Iraq experience as well? Because really at the time it was seventh and third were kind of just tagging in and out of Afghanistan and 5th and 10th were tagging in and out of. Of Iraq, and there were. There were, you know, cutouts for that. Do you get any Iraq exposure?
- [47:13]
B
Yeah. So right after that, about a year before I was supposed to be able to try out because I only had a year on an oda, they sent me to Sephardic and I did really well in Sephardic. And they're like, hey, this guy could be a potential SIF candidate. And my company sergeant major went next door to become the sift sergeant major. And he brought me and a couple guys with him, and so I was able to go to B23 right out the gate. A lot of guys were pissed off about that and went to Iraq like three months. I went to Sephora and then ripped right into Iraq for 06.
- [47:49]
A
That's right, that and that's the cutout for going to Iraq. A SIF team.
- [47:53]
B
Yep.
- [47:53]
A
And, and you guys, let me tell you, the unit still, when I got there was still speaking pretty highly of the Sith guys, which is awesome. As a proud Green Beret.
- [48:02]
B
Yeah.
- [48:03]
A
I love that the SIF guys showed up and showed out over there and. But just in case for the listeners, let them know what, what a sift team is and how that differs from a standard oda. Yeah, sometimes we take that for granted that everyone knows.
- [48:18]
B
Really interesting because you know, we have the subject matter expert sitting here with you. You know, the, the unit and the SIF have a very unique relationship because it, it goes all the way back to SOT and, and Beckwith's essential challenge to compete for this National Mission Force. And so the SIFs, what they became is essentially a domestic SWAT team. So if Delta Force or the unit is the Hostage Rescue Team, the FBI, hrt, the tier one organization, the cis, the idea was they are the area of operations SWAT team, the regional SWAT team that's going to be first on site, on scene, and they always were. And it's unique because. And a lot of people don't know this, a lot of it was basically essentially declassified because they disbanded the unit and they might bring it back. But we didn't work for use of FIC. We worked for JSOC. When I validated C210, which we'll get into, and we stood up the Africa sif. Bobby, I won't say his last name, but Bobby from the unit was the one who vetted us in Utah because we had a one year window to get validated by the unit. The reason is because there's a handover process and there's a synergy between the two organizations. And when I grew up in B23, I spent a lot of time going to range 19, which is the SODIF, which is the unit doing CQB hits with, with squadron guys. Because we were expected to be able to understand the SOPs and especially for snipers and reconnaissance elements. Do a direct handover to the National Mission. Mission Force.
- [49:56]
A
Yeah, absolutely. Did you go to Recce first in the Seth?
- [50:00]
B
No, I spent a year on the assault side and then build rapport with Recce and then went to Soda can, went on the sniper side.
- [50:08]
A
Which is how it should be.
- [50:09]
B
Yeah.
- [50:10]
A
You know, because if, if your job's relay information to the assault force.
- [50:14]
B
Yeah.
- [50:15]
A
You better have some assault force in your background. So you know what it is they're, they're looking for Absolutely.
- [50:20]
B
That's a lot of pressure, you know, on the. On the sniper recce side, which is a. Not the. The most favorite job for a lot of people. I loved it. But the assaulters had the dream job. You know, they. They would Jack, still eat good food, get protein, Shakespeare, go do the hit and go to bed. We would still be out in the field.
- [50:41]
A
Yeah.
- [50:42]
B
And the pressure was when you had to interoperate with the unit, you were expected to be perfect. And if you weren't, your entire organization would hear about it.
- [50:52]
A
There are two things in the military that stand out to me. You might be able to think of a few more that what movies, what people think about is just so far from the truth. I'll tell you. I'll start that list with what's not assaulting. That's as fun as you think it is. Blowing a door off his hinges and running in there. That's. In fact, you probably can't imagine how fun that is riding dirt bikes. Sure, Halo has its, you know, has its iffy moments, but third step out to on a ramp at 30, 000ft in the middle of the night, you know, with equipment. It's an adrenaline rush of a lifetime. It's awesome.
- [51:33]
B
Yep.
- [51:34]
A
But there's a lot of. There's a lot of fanfare that goes into Sniper and recce. A big word. And let me tell you, there's nothing that cool. There are snippets. There's not a lot that's that fun and that cool about Recce. I'm not saying it's not a satisfying job and it's not a rewarding job because it is, but it is so much different than what it's portrayed to be. A lot of downtime.
- [52:00]
B
99% of its downtime. And. And I spent a lot of time. Fortunate for me, being in urban hides in Iraq and. And doing the actual mission, which was awesome. And. And it was tough. I mean, you get three guys rotating on one gun in one position for three to seven days. It's. It's exhausting. And as I matured in special operations and became a team sergeant being the mss, Yeah, I mean, that was the hardest, me and Art, because I expected myself to carry my own radio, but I had an RTO with me that, that we rotated on the radio so one of us could be down, but we were up constantly. And it was just a tough job. I mean, it was. And like you said, it was a thankless job.
- [52:42]
A
And you may go three to seven days. Three to seven days without really being able to move just one, one other buddy there on a, on a constant security type of, of readiness and you may not fire a shot the whole three to seven days or worse. I had it one time where several shots were fired, but always when my buddy was on the gun.
- [53:08]
B
Oh, yes.
- [53:10]
A
So you get to stay there the whole time, never take a shot, but watch him take shots.
- [53:15]
B
Yeah, it's just, it's all, it's frustrating.
- [53:17]
A
It's frustrating.
- [53:18]
B
The first five minutes and you're like, oh, this is awesome. And then.
- [53:21]
A
Yes. Yeah.
- [53:22]
B
Where's that? Real fast, right?
- [53:24]
A
That's about, that's about how long it is. The first five to ten minutes. Super exciting.
- [53:27]
B
It's super exciting. Unless you're on Adderall, it's very boring.
- [53:32]
A
Yeah. At what point were you like, all right, did you go, did you go to West Virginia from, from the SIF teams?
- [53:40]
B
I did. So how, how, how, how was that
- [53:42]
A
perceived from, from their point of view? Were they supportive of that?
- [53:46]
B
They had to be. I mean, because, you know, again, a lot of people don't realize this and I've educated some people on it, but as a whole, it's not really well known, which is for many reasons. Again, they disbanded the organization and they have a new mission set and still doing a lot of cool, kick ass things, but we are subordinate to the unit. And, and when, when the unit is pulling guys from the Sith, just like when they're pulling guys from Ranger battalion because you've assessed, you got your package submitted the command, at least at that level they get it now you could be on a regular oda, you could be in the big army. And for sure your chain of command can disrupt that connection. But being so closely connected to the building where a lot of our guys were over there, they didn't play that game. And so I got a lot of a little pushback, but the guys were all supportive. So I trained up for selection and I went in spring of 07, the winter class.
- [54:46]
A
Did you, did you want to done that one as well? Yeah, I continued with my, my recce career and I, I went, I recceed West Virginia once and then, and then took it seriously the next time.
- [54:59]
B
I imagine the second time it's like, I know this routine.
- [55:04]
A
It's more painful the second time because
- [55:06]
B
you do, because you do know.
- [55:07]
A
I was so close the first time. I was so close. It was so painful.
- [55:10]
B
Did you get, were you in the snow class? Were you in the blizzard?
- [55:13]
A
The one right after it.
- [55:14]
B
Okay.
- [55:14]
A
Yeah, right. The one right after it. And.
- [55:16]
B
Yeah.
- [55:17]
A
Oh, gosh, the. Which was great. So you're at a point now to some degree. You had some, some hiccups along the way.
- [55:25]
B
Yeah.
- [55:26]
A
But you've, you've passed everything the military is thrown at you.
- [55:30]
B
Yeah. Yeah. I was, I was really proud for getting through selection because as you should be. I prepared. Everything you could do in preparation, I prepared. When I went to SFAs, my feet fell apart. When I went to West Virginia, my feet. It's funny, in SFAs, I had like 10 blisters on each foot. In West Virginia, my entire foot was a blister. Like, the entire bottom of my foot came off. I lost both big toenails, But I was physically prepared. But that winter storm, that blizzard which knocked out every one of us, but five of us finished and four of us boarded, but it was, it was something that I'll never forget. It was like a magical moment in history for me. But it was one of the most difficult things I've ever done. And up until the last part of it, the last days, the last two days, actually, I didn't think it was that difficult. I was like, we get to eat as much food as we want, proteins there. We get plenty of sleep and rest and downtime. And I'm like, this isn't that difficult. And then I was, I was hit with a wall of snow. Yeah, it was radical.
- [56:42]
A
Yeah. God has a sense of humor.
- [56:44]
B
Yeah. It was 70 degrees. Perfect optimal temperature going into the last two days.
- [56:50]
A
Yeah.
- [56:50]
B
And then we got hit with a historical blizzard that was sideways snow and sub zero temperatures in West Virginia for like three or four days.
- [57:00]
A
Yeah, that was, that was infamous because my, my very next class had a bunch of rollovers because of that.
- [57:07]
B
That's right.
- [57:08]
A
And guys were still talking about it and scared that at any point it, it, it might snow, it would change and it would change everything.
- [57:16]
B
I mean, because that was the fall. So you went to the fall class?
- [57:18]
A
I did.
- [57:18]
B
Yeah. That. That's even a higher chance of the snow going in the spring. We didn't even think that was a possibility, but it happened.
- [57:25]
A
That was such a, such a out of the blue event.
- [57:29]
B
It just, it was wild. Yeah, it was wild.
- [57:32]
A
People almost died.
- [57:33]
B
Yeah. Yeah.
- [57:34]
A
No, that's not an exaggeration.
- [57:36]
B
No, that way. So me and, me and the guys who finished. One of the guys who was your team leader at one point, when we, when we were finishing the last segments of it, we had no water. When we went to our rendezvous locations, they had jerry cans or the plastic jugs and, and all of it was frozen. And so we were eating snow for water. Are the two court canteen, which is up against my body, froze. And we. All the food we had on our person froze. And I was like, how are we going to get through this? And I think it was just, you know, we just pushed through it in the snow.
- [58:13]
A
And the. Whether knew it or not, the inception of a survival company was, was beginning.
- [58:18]
B
I learned a lot about myself and survival in that circumstance for sure.
- [58:24]
A
So you go back, you go back to the SIF company. Was it well received that you were selected?
- [58:28]
B
It was, it was almost. It was funny because I remember I called my team leader, who's a real good dude, and I'm, I'm like, yeah, I'm back. And I made it. He's like, did you hear that? Only four guys made it. I'm like, yeah, yeah, I was one of them. And he goes, no, no, no, you didn't. Did you hear it? Like there was a snow. I was like, rob, I made it. I was one of the dudes. And it, it was as, you know, like that is just one part of it. But once you're through that gate, it's like it didn't even matter. You know, once you get in the compound and the building, it's like nobody cares because that was just the entry point.
- [59:03]
A
Right. You know, and that, that would have been, that would have been a reoccurring theme of, of the building. They just, they, they don't care. They care at the moment.
- [59:14]
B
Yeah.
- [59:14]
A
And even the unit when you got selected in the unit cared that you made it.
- [59:17]
B
Yeah.
- [59:18]
A
The next day, no one cares.
- [59:20]
B
No one cares.
- [59:21]
A
And, and that carries over to otc. That carries over to battlefield valor. Oh, you got a silver star today. Awesome. Congratulations. We're proud of you. The next day, no one cares. No one cares.
- [59:32]
B
Absolutely.
- [59:32]
A
And it's, it's. But it's a necessary evil of, of that unit. They don't, they make no attempt to hide it. They tell you the unit will take more from you than you will get from it. That's the way it has to be.
- [59:49]
B
Yeah. Well, they say blue chips, right? It's like the blue chips that you have are only earned in the building. And if you show, when you show up, no matter how much experience you have, no matter what valor awards or seniority you have, you're. You're starting at zero.
- [60:05]
A
I was, I'll never forget this. I was a, I was a new guy and it was a troop. We were, were overseas and he Had a decent point to make. One of the new guys. It wasn't necessarily during the planning, but guys were telling stories, and so he decided to tell the story about his. His white side combat experience.
- [60:24]
B
Yeah. That didn't go over well.
- [60:27]
A
He starts in on it, and a guy looked at him and goes, nobody cares what you did. The minor leagues. Shut up.
- [60:35]
B
I've seen that interaction a couple dozen times.
- [60:38]
A
And he said it with a slight smirk on his face. You know, it's not. But yeah, but yeah. He did not continue his story.
- [60:46]
B
Yes.
- [60:46]
A
And. And there are people out there. They're like, oh, that's. That's a toxic environment. No, that's an old school environment.
- [60:52]
B
Necessary.
- [60:53]
A
That's necessary.
- [60:54]
B
It's necessary.
- [60:55]
A
Yeah. Young guy, shut up. To your job.
- [60:57]
B
Yeah. That's what I respected about the organization is the way that they operated was obviously culturally ingrained. It was something that was handed down just like you. We talked about your team leader and then how you evolved as a team leader yourself. It's all adopted and indoctrinated in a good way from the culture of the organization. Now, with that comes excess and. And some fat to trim. But that's the way it is. And if you can't adapt to that.
- [61:28]
A
Yeah.
- [61:28]
B
Then. Then you get cut out of it. I mean, that I was told when I left the building, the machine keeps churning when you turn in your badge and you see in the rear view, nothing's stopping it. And all your friends that were in the building and all those former teammates, they're no longer part of your life because that machine still going in the opposite direction that you're driving.
- [61:49]
A
Absolutely. After 10 years, they replaced me so fast it made my head spin.
- [61:53]
B
Wow.
- [61:53]
A
No one, no nobody called me, asking later, asking for. For some advice on how things were done when I did it.
- [62:00]
B
You didn't get a speaking engagement back into.
- [62:04]
A
Nobody cared. Everyone's replaceable.
- [62:06]
B
It is.
- [62:07]
A
You know, even after a decade, it's just. It's in your review. And that's. And that's where. That's where it'll stay. When you went back, did you end up doing another rotation or. Or stick around third group, just. Just a little bit longer because we. We would end up at the same OTC class, but different selections. What was the. Was there a cost for the delay?
- [62:27]
B
Yeah, there was a. Actually, no. A few months maybe. I came back and then the guys ripped out. B23 rotated in with B squadron at the MSS. So at the time it was, you know, SAS or Tutu, blue, red, green and the SIF company all under. I think it was TF16 at the time. And then I. And then I went to otc.
- [62:58]
A
Okay. Yeah. We have another thing in common. Neither one of us graduated that, that class.
- [63:04]
B
Really.
- [63:05]
A
I didn't. I. I did not graduate that class. I had to come back, really. And that was the. The West Virginia failure. To me, of course, it felt like a failure, you know? You did. It wasn't as. It wasn't as bad to me because when I went to that selection course, I didn't think I could make it.
- [63:26]
B
Yeah. Yeah.
- [63:26]
A
But then as I got really deep in, I started having, you know, these, These visions of grandeur. Like, you know what? I think. I think I can do it. And then I got pulled and I was like, well, I guess I couldn't do it, But it showed me enough to. To make me think it. It. It was possible.
- [63:45]
B
Yeah.
- [63:46]
A
Like, I. I can do this. And I went back and I, I trained up better and I went. I went right back and, and kicked that course in the ass. It hurt really bad in OTC because you're actually behind the wire, so you feel like you're a part of your. Of your dream job.
- [64:06]
B
Yep.
- [64:08]
A
And for me, I made a personal mistake that I had to. That I had to own up, to grow up a little bit and come back later. And so it was. It was crushing to be that, that close. And to me, that felt like my real first failure. And I did. I, I, I was depressed. It. It was. It was really hard for me to, to bounce back from that. For you, it truly was your first failure. You had done everything, every hard school the army had asked you, essentially.
- [64:46]
B
Yeah.
- [64:46]
A
And you'd gone right through it. Had. Had. How'd you deal with that?
- [64:50]
B
It was shocking to me. I, I didn't understand what was happening because I had the greatest time in otc. I went through the entire shooting program. I was. I was top. One of the top. At least top three shooters, top three physical. We had a small OTC class, but overall, I was like, this is easy. And it was. It was really weird because as a SIF guy doing CQB with the unit prior, and we did free flow cqb. I was like, I have no problems with this. And I was used to moving fast. And, you know, this. That's not what you do in otc. And when I got into it, I was like, this is what they want to see of me because I'm a SIF assaulter. I know what to do.
- [65:40]
A
Right.
- [65:40]
B
And I Would jackrabbit into rooms, run at targets. I wasn't scared of flashbangs. I had combat experience, and I thought I was very proficient at cqb. But again, that's not what that is. You cross the hall in the saber squad, and that's what that is. When your team leader tells you it's, that's what that is. But I didn't get it. And there was a, for the first time in my life, a personality conflict that I had with two of the instructors. And I knew this because I knew several of the instructors and one of them was a friend of mine, and which is common, you know, you like, you grew up in the military together. And they pulled me aside and were like, hey, I don't know what's going on, but here's what you should know. And one thing I'll never do is bad mouth the organization. But I was so like, let me give you an example. We were in a shoot house and we had just done nighttime CQB and had a good run. And we. I had this weird interaction with one of the guys that I had conflict with. And I came out of the building and everybody knew that. That there was a conflict between me and him. And he's an instructor. And at this point, which there's a point in OTC where you call you relax grieving standards, and you can call the instructor by their first name and they call you by first name. And I walked out of the shoot house and I took a knee. And it's the first time in my military career with at that point, about a decade in that I wanted to quit. And that night I had to sign a counseling statement for the first time in my military career for disrespect. Now, I could sit here and say I wasn't disrespectful, but it doesn't matter what I perceive, because we know this. I mean, Sergeant Major Ferris told me this perception is reality. And if he perceived that I was disrespectful, then I was. So I signed it. But then I knew what was happening. And, you know, I've told this before, I've said this before, and I've actually been. Some guys, including guys that have been on your podcast, have to have talked about it. Not on the podcast, but they've mentioned it in public forum that people don't leave the unit voluntarily. I did. I wasn't in tr, but I was told, we want you to go to DOGS for two years to learn. Unlearn your bad habits. Now, here's what's interesting, I didn't know what the hell a dog handler was in the unit. I, I never, we, we never worked with him in 06 because I was with Eru. Half of our troop, our troop two was with, with B squadron at the time or A squadron at the time. And then I, I had no familiarity with what that was. What I thought it was was a pog ass job. I'm like, yeah, I didn't come here to be a dog handler. Screw that. And I'm not going to be a support guy. And the CSM who had just rotated into otc, he said, well, what are you going to do? And I said, Sergeant Major, my B23 is right now with B Squadron and they're kicking indoors with B Squadron. I was like, if I leave right now, can I go back to B23 and come back? He's like, all right, you could do that. And so I was like, oh, that's my out. You know, I don't have to do this. Two years probation, which by the way is, is not uncommon. Now what is uncommon is getting a lot of the guys to be never to return into yard. And I was not into yard. I was told go away and come back. So ironically, my guys were downrange. B23 was downrange and I was going to recce and dude, this is no, no lie. Three weeks later, I'll just say his first name, Rick. And his dog Vinnie. B squadron dog saved my life on target. And I'm like, who are these pogues and this damn dog with some of the best handlers in the world and this elite animal that we highly respected bit a suicide bomber 15 meters in front of me and I'm like, what? And, and so it was too late at that point. So I, I did that rotation, I did the O8 rotation. I went to A knock and right when I graduated a knock, I went back to the building. Now when I went back to the building graduating a knock, that guy, those guys were still there, the two guys. One of them was an A guy, an A squadron guy, one of them was a C squadron guy. When you're OTC leadership, you are ripping in to senior leadership in the unit. It's, it's the perfect evolution of a small unit leader in a tactical element. It's, it's a beautiful thing. You know, you, you get up, you do your team leader time, you're a God in the building. Team leaders run the organization. Good troops aren't majors. Facilitate team leaders objectives or, or desires to meet the end objective that's defined by the troop sergeant major and the, and the, and the, and the troop commander. And then they go to otc and then they become senior leadership for the troops. What a amazing thing. Except when I came back, he was a troop sermon major, right? And so I remember talking. I'll just. His name's Chuck P. I was talking to Chuck P in the spine. I'm upstairs and I'm trying to figure out when I'm going back to otc. And he comes up behind Chuck P. And he whispers something into his ear. And Chuck didn't tell me what it was, but he said something along the lines of like, why are you talking to that bag? Or something like that. You know, something personal. And I didn't understand it. Well, long story short, I start working with a squadron I'm in. I'm a G Squadron assigned. I mean, I'm in a. It's called a recon nco. At least that's the, the, the title of the job. Not a lot of even unit members understand the role because it was a Bosnia requirement. It was, it was one of the requirements for, for Bosnia. I was in G Squadron. And then because I was OTC qualified, they farmed me out to a squadron, which is great because all my friends were there and we share mutual friends that were there. So I know if I go to otc, there's a high probability the word is going to get out. And so my thinking at the time was if I build rapport with a. Especially the team leaders, Jamie Caldwell being one of them. Amazing. One of the most phenomenal operators I've seen in the building killer. I'll just leave it at that. I knew he was going to otc and I was waiting for him to go to become an instructor because I knew he could validate that I wasn't a shitbag, that I was squared away, long story short, with a couple guys in my class on the black side, I got promoted. My first look. And I was shocked. I was in a, in a, you know, for the, the audience there's a white side list and a black side list. And I don't have to go into detail about this, but when you go into the unit, you disappear off the radar. And so on the black line black side list, there's a 0.7. I believe it was in promotion that year. They promoted 160, 18 series and I was 159.7, meaning I was the last black side E7. My first look, which at the time was like two years as E7. I think it was two or three years in service. I got picked up as an E8. That list was really long, so I couldn't promote for like a couple of years. But I made the list meaning as an 18 series. My entire world opened up, and me knowing it became one guy because the A squadron guy. And I'll say this publicly, I don't think I've ever publicly said this. We were doing something to do with aircraft one night at Pope, and he told me to stay behind. And his name, I'll just say his first name is Joe. And he was running A three at the time. And he pulled me off the side and he said, hey, Mike, when you. When we're done, I want to talk to you. And I'm like, I'm in trouble. This guy, he's got it out for me. I'm screwed. And he pulled me aside and he said, look, I want to apologize to you. And he said, I had it wrong. And he was a good Christian man. And he said, I'm a God fearing man. I had it wrong. And I want to tell you, you've earned my respect. I've seen how you've operated. I've seen how you work with the guys. I was giving them, I was teaching them like, surveillance detection. I was teaching them photography classes, the A3. And I really enjoyed that. That part of my job. And he goes, I want you to know that if you need anything from me, you just say the word.
- [74:33]
A
It's a big man.
- [74:34]
B
Yeah, he. Dude, I get chills just thinking about that moment. Because up until that point, like you said, the first time you fail, and it's Delta, it's the unit, it's the hardest failure you'll ever live with. But at that moment, I knew the other guy wasn't a fan of me. He was senior leadership. Ironically, he winded up getting pushed around. And ironically, two years ago, he texted me and he. He heard through the grapevine, through a buddy of mine who knew him very well, and he texted me, I still have it saved. And he said, I was a different guy back then. And I heard that I changed the trajectory of your career and it broke you, and I'm sorry. And, dude, that, that. I mean, I. I get teared up thinking about it. That 20, almost 20 years later, changed my life because the only thing I wanted to do in the unit was shoot bad guys in the face with Saber Squadron across the hall. Again, longer story shorter, I made E8. Bob Irby, who I knew Real quick.
- [75:42]
A
And I hate to interrupt you, but.
- [75:44]
B
Please.
- [75:44]
A
It's a. It's. It's a. It's a personal question, but it's. I can easily turn around and tell you another story. Most men can. When you got those two apologies, did that release a lot of. I wouldn't say a lot, but in this. And this question will call that. That release a lot of hate in your heart.
- [76:08]
B
The weight of the world. And I live with hate for almost 20 years, man. Yeah.
- [76:14]
A
Yeah.
- [76:14]
B
It tore me up.
- [76:15]
A
Yeah. And we'll carry that for a long time. Yeah. Not only. I don't. I only say that not. Not to expose you. You holding hatred in your heart. Because I'm just as guilty as it. Like I said, I. I could. We can. We can go story for most men can. But it's. I really wanted to point that out because what. What released. That was just another man saying sorry to another man for wronging him. It's such a simple answer. And. And I think as we get older, we can look back at our younger selves and have an honest look at ourselves and be like, do I need. Do I need to say sorry to anyone?
- [76:50]
B
Hundred, man. Yeah, I. Actually, it's. It's funny because after that, I did reach out to a couple guys that.
- [76:57]
A
Yeah.
- [76:57]
B
You know, that. That I, you know, I think about that time in that period of our lives, and the only motivation for us. It had nothing to do with the Persona or. Or the allure of being that guy. It was. We knew right after graduation, we were going in extreme conditions in combat, and. And when other guys went across the hall and I wasn't able to do that, it really broke my heart because that's where I knew I needed to be. Now God's got a. A grander plan. And like you said, which I think is true, I don't regret anything because I'm where I'm at right now because of it. But we were desperate for. For combat.
- [77:43]
A
Yeah. Yeah. The. The other thing to rewind just a little bit, but I just wanted to touch on it because I don't think people necessarily understand it. And it's something you had mentioned about OTC being somewhat of an OTC expert, because I went twice.
- [78:01]
B
That's crazy.
- [78:02]
A
Yeah. Everything that you're talking about, you can see in one OTC and I've seen in two OTCs. It happens to some degree to a person in every class, I'm certain, because I went two for two. See, seeing those types of things happen. But the other thing that I think is, it's interesting. SIF guys don't always do well an otc. It's very true. I think that would be crazy to think about because again, people, people don't. We don't talk about sift teams a whole lot, but in the SF community, we know exactly who sift teams are. You know, too much. Yeah. I hate to say it.
- [78:41]
B
Yeah.
- [78:41]
A
And that, and that, and that process is meant to break everybody down to its lowest level and bring everybody up systematically to a certain level at a certain time. And when you're not on the same playbook, you look different. And as you know, in cqb, different is bad. Doesn't mean the CQB you're doing is bad. It's a dance and everyone has to be on the same sheet of music. And it's, it's painful sometime to watch sith guys not do as well as, as they could because their biggest deterrent is they know too much. Like, it's, it's true. And I'll, I'll, you know, just something I wanted to say out loud because it's true. I've seen it.
- [79:25]
B
It's unfortunate that the fact that you're saying that out loud means a lot to me because, you know, I was told a lot of my OTC class has communicated to me that I got screwed over. And we're looking for validation, right? We want the validation that we weren't that guy.
- [79:44]
A
Right.
- [79:45]
B
By every measure, by every measure that I was measured by very analytically, very precisely. I, I was a, a top tiered operator, right? In the top bracket of, of an elite group. And so when I was told I was going in the room too fast or I was too comfortable with bangs because they're dangerous or whatever, whatever it was. And then a paper trail had to be evolved because not a lot of people know this, but it's a school. It's actually. You have 1099s, like, or, or 1059s. You have counseling statements and you have to provide all the stuff. I knew that the odds were stacked against me and I was, I felt at least relieved that I wasn't put in a position where I could never return. You know, that, that made me feel good about it. And then when I came back into the building, I didn't know what to expect because those guys were there. And then so many of my friends were across the hall and I'm in this little office in G Squadron, like, right. What am I doing? I almost had to find work for myself, in fact, but, but Learning and evolving in that building in the short period of time I was there only a few years or two and some change. When I made E8, I remember having a conversation with, with this guy Fink that we both, I think we both know a very now seasoned and senior operator, but he was one of my best friends at the time and he said, if you leave now, you'll regret it for the rest of your life. And, and I was in my driveway at my 10 acres in Lillington, North Carolina, which is great because I never had to go on a brag. I just drive into the, in the back of the compound. And he said, you'll regret it for the rest of your life. And, and I said, but man, it's an opportunity to do something different, you know, as an E8, as a 29 year old E8. And I made that decision and I left the building and it's been thrown out there and it's been communicated. Some guys have said it, that I was an Augmentee. I wasn't an Augmentee. I don't even correct me if I'm wrong. That's a person who's attached to you when you go down range and they're augmenting you.
- [82:04]
A
Right? Yeah. I mean, I'm sure there's different. Maybe there's a textbook that, that I'm not aware of, but I can tell you what I. When someone says it's the Augmentee, it means you belong to a different unit and you, you're coming over here for a short period of time still owned by the parent unit.
- [82:19]
B
Yes.
- [82:20]
A
But you're tactically controlled by us now.
- [82:22]
B
Yes. And I was never that.
- [82:23]
A
Right.
- [82:23]
B
I mean, I was a bonafide unit unit member, was not in Saber Squadron, but I was because I was OTC qualified. I mean, Johnny, Johnny l was like, bro, jump on the bandwagon. Let's go. And my first rotation was our first rotation as a organization back into Afghanistan. And it was wild. I mean, it was, you know, you know, Matt and Pat, that's when they got injured there. That was that first rotation back. And it was, it was the Wild west, man. I was running af, the Afghan partnering unit for, for the troop I was with. And I had, dude, I was, I was able to do things because I wasn't part of the you guys system. I was able to do things that I, I think I shouldn't have been doing. I mean, I was like, I, I briefed Derek and Johnny. I was like, I want to do daytime ops and follow the the human source guy and protect him. And I want a bang bus with an APU guy. I want to be hodged up. I want two rangers in burkas doing recce. We had recce Rangers with us at that time. And I want a machine gunner, a saw gunner in the back behind a curtain. I built the vehicle. I briefed it. I did. I did a CTR setup on it so we can collect the information. And I could do drive. Drive bys on any eyes. And I briefed him and they're like, do it. And I was staging a whole platoon of QRF Rangers that were pissed off at me because they had to do night ops and then have an upsell of platoon for me. And I'm like, dude, I would never dream about this. Nsf. I did a rotation, another rotation in Iraq. And Jasper, who's now a general.
- [84:13]
A
Yeah.
- [84:14]
B
Was the J3. I'd pick up the phone like, sir, I want to do this. He's like, dude, just do it. I'm like, no, conup. He's like, you got the conup approved. I'm giving you a thumbs up. Do it. I'm like, dude, I got chills, man. It's like the most unbelievable experience, even though I had a short version of it.
- [84:30]
A
When it comes to our support guys, not. Not only do I believe we're the most professional to our support guys, but they're the most professional to us. It's a. It's a reciprocating professional relationship that. But. But not all support guys are the same. And, and what I mean by this is they better all be treated with respect because unit does. Does not tolerate that. But there are some support guys that will be able to do more things than other support guys.
- [85:09]
B
Yeah.
- [85:09]
A
Be. Because of who they are, because of what they've shown to be responsible with. And so they may all be treated the same, but they may not all do the same.
- [85:18]
B
Yeah, absolutely. I. I've seen that with, you know, motivated EOD guys who, who like. You're like, what are you doing? What are you. You're putting in a con up for us to jump, just three of us to freefall into this thing, to do this thing. I'm like, that. That's ballsy. But they had, they had free reigns. And I think, yeah, yeah, the organization was very good at giving you the reigns enough. You know that, that analogy with a rope, just give you enough rope to
- [85:43]
A
hang yourself and it goes back the same thing. Just ask. Yeah, they might, they might say, especially at the unit.
- [85:50]
B
Yep.
- [85:51]
A
They. They Just might say yes.
- [85:53]
B
Yeah, I, I did a. I did some thing on target with, with, with A one and I asked them and they said roger that. And we did it. And they're like, don't ever talk about that. We just, we talked to hire. That never happened. And I'm just like, damn. Okay. But yeah, the, the best organization in the military by a long shot. And yeah. And then I made E8 and got an opportunity to stand up to be a plank holder with a SIF company, which is pretty cool.
- [86:22]
A
I don't. I just, I just have to let you know how much that story hurts. Hurts. Hurts me because as an operator, I got passed over for E three times. Wow.
- [86:35]
B
Yeah. Yeah. But you guys situation is totally different.
- [86:38]
A
Right? I mean I, I still got, you know, I, I'm not necessarily complaining, but it's, it's never enough for guys like us.
- [86:45]
B
It's true.
- [86:45]
A
It's never enough.
- [86:47]
B
That's true.
- [86:48]
A
So it's. And I don't think people realize, I mean you got, you got your first look at, at E8, which is awesome. It. It is. But traditionally at the unit, the SF guys, the 18 series qualified guys, that unit, you would think, hey, you're working at the National Mission Force. The tip of the spears. Regardless of the job you're doing, you are doing something that's more tangible than anyone else out there. But you're not a part of the SF regiment.
- [87:18]
B
Yep.
- [87:19]
A
We have a lower stand. We have a lower percentage of promotions than SF does.
- [87:28]
B
That's right. Yep.
- [87:29]
A
Which is crazy if you think about it. So in a weird way, you're almost being punished as an SF guy via promotions. If you go to the unit. I'm not saying you won't get promoted. You absolutely. If I remember the numbers off the top of my head for one of the years that, that I got passed over and I went and looked at the numbers, there was something like a 60 promotion rate to, to E8 for eligible for SFE8s, but the unit itself was like 52%.
- [87:58]
B
Wow. So under the regular regiments norms. Yeah, yeah.
- [88:03]
A
Yeah. So it's, it's just, it's a little bit because, because people just assume, oh, you're, you're at the unit. It's a first time look for sure. And that's true for 11 series.
- [88:11]
B
Yeah.
- [88:12]
A
The Rangers, you're getting promoted.
- [88:14]
B
Yeah. Because they're, it's, it's like above and beyond. They're especially conventional 11.
- [88:19]
A
Right. Because that's right. They go, they go against all 11 series.
- [88:22]
B
Yeah.
- [88:22]
A
4th ID 25th ID.
- [88:24]
B
And then when you look at. And you put them all together, they're rock stars. Yeah.
- [88:28]
A
Yeah, absolutely. Is that when you end up going to back to SF via 10th group? And I just want to point that out. Not. There's not a lot of times in an SF career you change groups.
- [88:41]
B
Yeah.
- [88:41]
A
Now, of course, this one makes sense because you went to another and it happens. I'm not saying it never happens. It usually happens if you go to SWIC and there's something in between, but it's pretty rare that you got to. To change groups. Is that something you looked for or something that was offered to you?
- [89:00]
B
It's a weird one because when, when I was waiting, I actually had essentially a lined up OTC class and I was trying to time it with. With Jamie. I was. He probably doesn't even know this. He's. He's probably never even heard that. But I, I had such a good time with A1 and I knew those guys were ripping into OTC and I thought I had a decent reputation with them. And so I was like, okay. I had to game the system a little bit. And when I made eight, one, you know, there it is common for an E8 to cross the hall. I mean, we had one in our class, but it's not preferred. I think at the time, the unit sergeant major who took over for Ferris, who was not very liked, who brought back uniform, dress and appearance.
- [89:52]
A
We had our unfortunate moments. It came and went.
- [89:54]
B
Yes. When that happened, essentially if I went back into the unit, you know, as a six, I see on a team, I was weighing the options and it obviously wasn't guaranteed, but I was like, you know, what would my destiny look like? Could I finish up the next eight years and how would that go? And this was offered and I thought, you know, I'm envious of your career, your. Your timing. Because you hit something that we never knew was going to happen. Syria. And it's really profound that it's not really talked about because it's the most profound level of killing bad guys that's ever existed in history. Yet it's such a small sliver that I thought was never going to exist. I thought I was in prime time. 060708. And so I was like, well, there's nothing going on. What are my options? Somebody reached out to me and said, hey, they're looking for two sniper recce team sergeants for C210 who have SIF and unit experience. And I was like, well, I do. And then two lamb Was in the building too. And I'm like, hey, bro. He was working with one of the sats troops. And I'm like, would you go there with me? And that's really the only way I would have gone because I was like, I want to go together and kind of figure this out. And we had a nickname in the unit called Double Dragon. Besides now retired, I could say his name is retired Doug Kim. He was. We were the only Asians in the building. And. And he got. And this guy's like, I would love to have you. And we were like, where's it at? They're like, 10th group. It's Colorado. So I flew out there. I think two went with me and we went on tdy. The unit sent us. Now what's crazy is the unit facilitated it because the unit had to vet it when I, when I validated. When. When were. Did you go to Benghazi? Were you on that. On that rip when those guys ripped In September 11th and 12th of 2012, I was in the unit compound as the SIF Recce Team Lead. Me and two were in the building and we walked through a squadrons bay and we're like, where the hell is all the ladders? Where are the sprinter vans? Where's all this? And they're like, they're gone, dude. You didn't hear. And so we. Well, we were part of that whole process.
- [92:20]
A
I. I was part of that.
- [92:22]
B
Okay.
- [92:22]
A
We didn't land there, but I was part of that.
- [92:24]
B
Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So when you guys ripped out, we walked through the bay and we're like, we're the guys. We wanted to say what's up? And we went to the J3 and we had to directly coordinate with the unit because we had to get approved. And we went there to actually do a. It was one of the team leads NA who was going to take over one of the programs in Libya. And he was obviously gone. But we were supposed to have a kle. A key leader engagement with him, the ambassador and the dat, the defense attache. And we walk in, we're like, where's everybody at? We went in the basement and task force. And they were like, yeah, man, they're gone. They just ripped out.
- [93:03]
A
We'll hear a funny story about that night. It's just. Yeah, it's just the way things work. We were all. We were all at work that night and I was excited about this. We were going to Halo in to Robin Sage and hit.
- [93:19]
B
Do the.
- [93:20]
A
And hit it and hit a target for one of the Robin Sage teams.
- [93:23]
B
Oh, nice.
- [93:24]
A
The future Green Berets and one of the, they were, you know, for the last two or three days, they were wrecking, wrecking a target for, for their scenario. And they had given us pretty good intel and you know, told us the, some good breach points and photography and they were told, hey, there's going to be, you know, and you need to set up the DZ because an assault force is coming in. And I'm sure because it happened in RQ course sometimes you get told that and you're like, ain't nothing happening. Ain't nothing happening. You know, or they tell you there's a helicopter coming. Like, you know, ain't no helicopter coming. And sometimes there is, sometimes there's not. And I was as a, again, as a proud Green Beret, I would have loved to jump into Robinson.
- [94:09]
B
That would have been sweet, man.
- [94:10]
A
And, and showing the boys, you know, what, what could be in their, in their future or.
- [94:14]
B
The seer hit, you guys, I never did a sear.
- [94:17]
A
I never did a Seer hit.
- [94:18]
B
Yeah, those were good. I heard.
- [94:19]
A
But we were, we were all in and had all of our stuff ready to go to fake war. And then someone comes down and goes, switch out your blue bolts, go upstairs.
- [94:28]
B
Wow.
- [94:29]
A
Yeah. So we didn't have to get called in. We were, yeah, we were there.
- [94:32]
B
We, me and to sat in the talk and watch you guys land in Sigonella in Italy. And we were just tracking it because we were going to live. I mean, our first rip was in, in Libya and I was the first team lead, taking my cell leader and a couple guys and we were rotating in with the two unit guys that were there and we winded up meeting, you know, I, I deployed there a few weeks later, linked up with those guys and they handed over the 1208 program to us, which was a big mistake. I actually pushed for it, but it was, it was sox ass first 1208 and they really screwed it up. And, and, and the, both the unit guys who were good dudes, they try to convince me otherwise.
- [95:16]
A
Yeah.
- [95:17]
B
And I said, man, it's not up to me. It's up to this lieutenant colonel who's here. He's pushing for it and we got it and we were able to do nothing with it.
- [95:24]
A
Yeah. And just to, you know, clarify what, what you said, because I know what you mean by that. And it's, and it's been this way that they wanted to turn over Syria to, to, to sf, as they probably should have as well. That was an SF mission all day long. But it was, it's not the quality of guys running the programs. The ODAs are still, are still what I believe to be holistically one of the most versatile and results getting peace on the battlefield. Holistically, it's the headquarters element that always ends up being the bottleneck of the guys. And the guys on the ground are still capable of doing that 128 program. They're capable of taking over Syria. It's the siege of soda or the equivalent that hamstrings are own guys, the hamstrings are own guys of doing great things. And that's what the Tier 1 level really shines at, is they still believe in their guys in the ground to do the right thing.
- [96:25]
B
Yeah, they give them unilateral control to, to do the, to do the thing. And, and that decentralized plan of execution and that trust that they put in the guys is very apparent. And, and when we took over, I mean, here's an example, I was on the ground with two A squadron packs. One of them, a good buddy of mine, actually I served in the Sith with his brother. Great dudes, they, they ripped in with the other two unit guys that were there during Benghazi and Algeria, popped off a big oil refinery hostage rescue. Me, my cell leader and my 18 Delta Gerald. We loaded up our Hiluxes, one unit Hilux, one SIF Hilux, and we were prepared to go and link up with Saber squadron in the middle of the desert, do a rapids infill, facilitate the whole thing and get it done. Sock af. We called Sock AF and we said, hey, what's the latest intel? And they said, what do you mean? We're like, like, I'm a master sergeant, this unit guy here is a master sergeant. We're asking you to go get somebody in charge to tell us what's going on with the intel with Algeria. There's hostages, American hostages, and the guy's like, sergeant there. There's nobody here. We, we don't run a talk full time. Like what?
- [97:50]
A
Amazing.
- [97:51]
B
So Sock AF as a command didn't run a full time talk. They run a daytime talk in Germany. And we had. Out of Germany, in Germany, we had, we had no intel, we had no, no clearance. So then I'll just say his first name, Jim makes some calls and gets the J3 at the unit to buy off on it. So we got our initial movement. What is it? What's the troop leading procedures? Receive the mission, issue the order, start movement. We got the start movement. The lieutenant colonel that was on the ground that was on the ground in Benghazi, was very Risk adverse. And he's like, you guys can't leave. And I'm like, you don't own us anymore. These guys own us. And he's like, yes, sir, these guys are our guys. And so we, we loaded up, got ready to do it. And then that, that following. It wasn't the following morning, it was that morning. Because this is like two in the morning, daylight breaks and the Algerian military uses Cobra gunships and they fly in and what they think are squirters from the objective winds up being hostages that broke themselves out. And they do gun runs on hostages and kill a whole bunch of hostages, including Americans. And we're just like, I can't believe it, the incompetence. So at that time, Ground branch was running the paramilitary show and dude, behind the scenes I was farming out all my guys that I trained for CT for counterterrorism and was giving them all those guys, which, which is why they recruited me. They were like, we need to bring you in.
- [99:21]
A
Yeah. And that's, that's what's always crazy about a military career. The relationships you make. Those are a known. Your next steps are always an unknown. And so I, I say this to younger guys because I don't think I always did a good job of it. I'm not saying I ever treated anyone bad, but I'm saying there, I could have, I could have treated some people better or I could have picked my battles a little bit more judiciously because you don't know what the next step is. You don't know when you're going to see that person again. You don't know when you're going to need that person again. I don't mean in a selfish way, but just in a minute. Making things happen, just the rest of your life is so unknown. So if, if you're going, if you're going to make a stand, you better make sure that it's in. You look at it in a, in a more long term perspective that this stand is worth making now. And I'll look back in the stand and say I, this was the right thing to do. I think all of us, when we're in that moment, we get a little shortsighted because we just, and it's not with bad intention. We're standing up for what we think is right. But maybe, maybe to a degree that I think we, we lose a little bit of sight holistically of the, of, of the whole picture.
- [100:34]
B
Yeah. Yeah, that's right. Because we I think we, we're moving from target set to target set or rotation to rotation, not realizing that the endurance for that long haul is going to pay off potentially in the future. I mean, the guys you're talking to as a platoon sergeant or a young squad leader are the guys that you're potentially going to be talking to as a senior command sergeant major, a unit sergeant major, a team leader in the unit.
- [101:01]
A
Yeah, I think it's another really good thing. We've talked about this a little bit offline, but most men, good men and most of the people you work with, those levels are good men.
- [101:14]
B
Most of them, Most of them 87%
- [101:17]
A
is that when, when you do get out. See, but at least now you're, you're, you're leaving this to chance. But chances are when, when you meet up later at some point you'll probably have a conversation that goes something like this. Hey, you know, back then was, back then. That's, you know, that's not now. And most people will, will, will leave the past in the past and just start fresh and be like, hey, this is what we're doing now. Let's, let's, let's do this now. But again, you're leaving that, you're leaving that the chance if, if you're not careful about the, the stands you're making and, and how you treat people.
- [101:53]
B
Yeah, it, they say, you know, in our community, you know, your reputation follows you everywhere you go. And I never really bought into that until the last probably 10 years where you know, even you knowing my reputation in the Q course and me knowing your reputation in the unit, like that's a phone call away. Yeah, right. You can make a call on a guy and be like, hey, how was this dude? Well, I remember him as being a rock star, a good dude. And, and when you, when you think about that long term now being post military outside of the army, what are those guys doing now? I mean one of those guys is like a senior executive at Wells Fargo. The other guys retired in San Diego and you know, he, he was the liaison for the seals and, and doing some really good work. I mean there's, you know, Jack Carr talks so highly about him as a commit, as a command sergeant major and all the things he imparted knowledge wise onto him as a, as an officer. So it's like that impact is resounding and, and, and, and doesn't go away. And, and then as we evolve as men and as Christians and as, as leaders of our family, that reputation is still going to follow.
- [103:08]
A
You. I'll. I usually keep private conversations private. I don't. I don't think you'll. You'll. You'll mind me telling this story because. Because I. Because I know you won't. We're talking about it right. Right now. We. We haven't seen each other in
- [103:27]
B
21 years.
- [103:28]
A
It's been a hot minute.
- [103:29]
B
Hot minute.
- [103:29]
A
It's been a hot minute.
- [103:30]
B
Yeah.
- [103:31]
A
I had no idea when the last time I saw you what you were going to end up doing, and I had no idea what I was going up doing. I know this. Me and you didn't even know what the term podcast was back then.
- [103:42]
B
We weren't doing it for an Instagram
- [103:45]
A
post or Instagram or. We knew nothing about anyone's future.
- [103:50]
B
Yeah, but it wasn't.
- [103:52]
A
It wasn't too long ago we were talking about pushing out a story that. That I may need help with, to. To promote a good cause. And. And you just simply said, brent, let me know and I'll. I'll push it out on this platform and even this platform or whatever you need. Reach out to me anytime you need help pushing a good cause. And. And you can count on me for that. And that's awesome.
- [104:18]
B
Yeah.
- [104:18]
A
You didn't have to do that. Yeah. You can use your platform for whatever you choose to. Your platform for, but, you know, there was no history for us to get over, and so it makes doing good together really easy.
- [104:33]
B
Yeah. And I think, like, we just talked about, Swede, these amazing human beings, you know, that have passed on a lot that are obviously still here. Like, that connection, that fabric of connection that kind of bonds men together through these experiences is so important. And, And I never knew I'd be talking about the unit with a guy who's in the same squadron that I adore, that I love nine years after my service. But I'm. I. I'm glad I am, because that connection still needs to be there in a form. And some guys, you know, they write it off. They're like, I'm done with that. You know that. That chapter. For me, that page has turned. You will never not be that guy.
- [105:23]
A
It'll always be a part of your life.
- [105:24]
B
Always.
- [105:25]
A
You can try to minimize it as much as you want, and for some people, it's a good thing. Some people need to. But it. It's always there.
- [105:33]
B
Yeah.
- [105:34]
A
It's always there. Yeah. I know we can go on and talk about, you know, what you did after the unit and why. Why you left the military and grs, but we got to save Something for the life. And I want to talk about something else. And we, we, we talked about this, and I, I really wanted to, to use this opportunity. It was nothing you asked for. It's, it's, it's what I wanted to do, especially after doing a little bit more research into it. And, and that's some of the, the allegations that have, that have come up against you in your personal life. And to some degree, you know, it doesn't matter if whatever it was, whoever I had, I don't even call it a problem with, I had a problem with their story, not with them personally, but whoever I've called out in the past, I've always left their personal life out of it because I always thought your personal life is your personal life, your professional life is your, is your professional life. But of course, when you're in the public eye, that, that starts, that starts to blend and you're accused of something that we're going to get into. And I did. I was. Luckily, I'm a little bit older and more mature in some sense. I still make a lot of stupid mistakes in some other sense.
- [106:53]
B
Samesies.
- [106:54]
A
And when you were arrested, you know, I was asked, hey, what, you know, what do you think about Mike Glover in that instance? And they, and they said it almost in a, in a you're guilty way.
- [107:05]
B
Yeah.
- [107:05]
A
And I said, well, hold on. There's been some recent stuff with cops on several instances, and when we waited for all of the information to come out, we found out that the good guys were good guys, and it just takes a while for that information to come out. And I said, so if I'm going to give that same courtesy to cops, I will extend that same courtesy to Mike Glover. And then, sure enough, as the information comes out, it's very different than the initial story. And I say all that to say it's no surprise to everyone. The initial story gets a lot of traction.
- [107:47]
B
It does. Yeah.
- [107:49]
A
But even if they write a retraction, which I doubt anyone's, maybe you might know, I don't know if anyone's written a retraction on, on your story other than you, you know, coming on podcast and getting talked and having the opportunity to talk about it, really, it's an opportunity to give your side. Otherwise, the only thing they know about you was the allegations, and they have no idea how it ended. So I just wanted to preface that, that long intro, with why it was important for me to, to skip ahead to that and give you ample opportunity to talk about that.
- [108:19]
B
First off, I want to Say what you said is right. Like I am, I am somebody who hit social media at the right time, was one of the first few special operations guys to come out and do it, do social media. And I think semi successfully. I've, I've gotten some emails from, from unit members, from SF guys and I've tried to course correct. I've done my best to do that but I am obligated, I believe, because the public in a social media medium form built my business. They supported me.
- [108:55]
A
Right.
- [108:55]
B
Many obviously still do. And I feel obligated to tell people what happened because they've been part of the journey and I'm a public figure. So that's number one. Two, the situation revolves around something I didn't know existed. And this is in hindsight, after therapy, after conversations with my now wife about what took place. Postpartum is a real significant issue that women deal with all over the country and it's not really talked about. The reason being is because it's, it's identified as a bad thing and not something that's commonplace amongst women's chemistry after giving birth to a child. Oh, by the way, they could, they could start postpartum during pregnancy and it could last for years. So the confrontation that we had between me and my spouse we've determined was a massive community miscommunication. She thought I was coming in there to tune her up and I thought she was in there to, to potentially risk my child's life. And that's not the case. Either way, the exacerbation of this was due to law enforcement and, and I get it, young officers, they're looking at Willy Wonka's golden ticket in Mike Glover, I'm wrapped up in a chocolate bar. And they, for example, and I've said this before on Andy's podcast, but I just want to reiterate. They, for example, said I kicked down a door. I never kicked down a door. One, I'm not going to kick down a door in my own home. Two, I'm 235 pounds, six foot one. I could get through any door. I was a breacher for a long time. I can get through doors. Hollow core doors don't stand a chance. I never kicked down a door. It was also advertised that I broke my, my girlfriend's wrist. I never broke my girlfriend's wrist. In fact, my girlfriend was playing an acoustic guitar two days after this happened on video. The idea that there was conspiring between me and my girlfriend is also a false narrative. I didn't see her for six months because we had court to go through. And it was a devastating circumstance of miscommunication and an interaction that I can't take back now, now understanding through therapy with her, her own therapy, this is something that happens all the time. How do you deal with it? Well, Mike Glover at the time thought his ex or his girlfriend was just crazy. I thought this was just behavioral issues. It has nothing to do with that. It's chemistry. And so everything that took place was chemistry related. When, when we finally got all this behind us, case wise, we had some real digging deep to do because I was burnt out. And I was like, I'm done. But I also have children with this woman. And I, I thought to myself, she made a mistake. And at the time she thought I was going to take her child from her. Because that's what I said.
- [112:18]
A
Yeah.
- [112:18]
B
I said to her, I'm going to take this child from you. And. And we are done. And what she did, in my opinion, looking back at it, was everything she needed to do to protect her child. Because she thought I was taking her, her child, her son, away from her, from Mama Bear. And she did what she did. I can't take that back. But I forgive her. I could have done a lot of things different that, that night or that day, that morning. Actually, it was seven in the morning when it happened. But one thing that I won't forgive is the way law enforcement handled it. I mean, I was, because of my background, told that I might not even get out of jail because I was a threat to society. And Brent, I didn't even touch that girl.
- [113:06]
A
I'm not, I'm not giving them a pass by any means. When I heard you on other podcasts, you know, saying what actually happened, I was kind of thinking about it from a, from a police officer's eyes, more as a man. And they're men and they are programmed to show up and see an emotional girl.
- [113:30]
B
Yep.
- [113:30]
A
And then see a large man, a large stoic man and be pre wired to protect her.
- [113:39]
B
Yeah.
- [113:40]
A
Not. I don't. Only they know, you know, why they did, you know, what they did and why it was clearly skewed the way they skewed it. But that, that was the first thing that kind of jumped out to me is that if that's what happened, it's not an excuse. You, you still have to investigate both sides, but that could be a possibility.
- [114:02]
B
Yeah. And, and to their credit, I will say that the process of arrest and charge is the beginning process of proving yourself in court that you didn't do it. Right. And so I never got to a courtroom because all we had to do is provide the evidence and the statements and the information to the. The prosecutor's office. But what I was bummed out about is they wouldn't give me the benefit of the doubt at all. There was no injury. There was no bruising. Look, my. My wife's five foot three, a hundred pounds. She might even be five two. She advertised she's five' three. Like she's a little bit taller. She. She is a little thing.
- [114:47]
A
Yeah.
- [114:48]
B
And if I thrashed her or physically assaulted her, there would be evidence of that. There was zero evidence of that. Zero. And, and, and even in this articulation that I broke her wrist, we actually talk. We had to do this because we. We subpoenaed the doctor. The doctor never said that her wrist was broken. The cop perceived that it could be a fracture, and he wrote in the police report the wrist was broken. So when you look at the X ray tech, the X ray tech said there's nothing there. We had to actually get four independent X rays to demonstrate that there was nothing that. Not even contusion, no bruising, nothing. Right. Her wrist. I could. I could wrap every finger, even my pinky finger with my thumb around her wrist. And if I grabbed her wrist at all and. And thrashed her or broke her wrist, she would be in a cast. There would be bruising, there would be contusion. There was none of that.
- [115:46]
A
Yeah.
- [115:46]
B
So if I'm a law enforcement officer and I'm doing an investigation, I'm looking at the scene, which they didn't look at. There was no. I mean, the displacement of just things like a rug, because I didn't have an opportunity to do anything to the scene of where we had this interaction. They didn't even look at it to articulate that I kicked down a door. That's a big articulation when the door is on the. On its hinges. Right. And so I think they exaggerated because they wanted it to be true. And I think that's a problem in law enforcement today, is things are objectively true or not. And if you have evidence that it's potentially not and charges are presented, I get it. But there was no objective evidence at all that a physical conflict actually took place besides her words.
- [116:35]
A
And that's what's scary, which is why it got dropped. Never even been to the court. Cooler heads prevailed because another entity came in, looked at the evidence. Yeah, Because. I'm not saying. Because just kind of. I'm Kind of continuing down this, this, this road that I presented earlier. Because they didn't have to see you in the house. They didn't have to see her in her emotional state. They had nothing pressing. Their biases. They're just looking at the facts.
- [117:03]
B
Yeah.
- [117:03]
A
And when they looked at the facts, what are we doing? It didn't even, it didn't even go to court. But this is nothing new. And this is by no means because anyone can snip something I'm about to say and make into something that. It's not that I don't believe women, I believe the evidence. But this isn't new. You can go back to the Duke lacrosse scandal.
- [117:25]
B
Yeah. Huge.
- [117:27]
A
And anytime this dynamic is involved, I do believe men do catch the short end of the stick off of emotional reasons. And you are guilty until proven innocent.
- [117:47]
B
That's, that's for a regular guy. Imagine a guy with our background as it's framed.
- [117:51]
A
Right, Right.
- [117:52]
B
When, when I was in lockup, I spent a week in jail, man. And I, I was one in fear of my life. I mean, the corrections officers were walking up to me, thanking me for my service, saying they follow me and watch my content. And then other prisoners like. And I was in my first cell lockup in, in public housing before they put me into a, a smaller lockup. Oh, they wanted to put me into solitary confinement, by the way. I was in there with an MS.13 gang member who had a.380 round lodged in his neck from being shot at point blank range, who was like, why are you talking to that cop or to that, that guy? I'm like, oh, he just, he knew I was in the military and blah, blah. So what'd you do? I was a special operations guy. Killed a whole bunch of guys right out the gate and they're like, oh yeah, oh, and one of the dudes in the cell was like, I, I recognize you. And I'm like, thank God.
- [118:44]
A
Right.
- [118:45]
B
Because. Because in that environment, obviously the tension is high. And I was told because of my background, and this is obviously after the fact, because of my background, they used that and they actually framed it in a narrative and said is a potential liability and a danger to society, which is not scary.
- [119:02]
A
Further from the truth.
- [119:03]
B
Yeah, we should be. For some reason, they skip the narration of our backgrounds where we are psychologically evaluated. In, in West Virginia, we went through like a two and a half day, three day psych eval.
- [119:20]
A
Right.
- [119:20]
B
Like the most aggressive filtration and distillation of your psychological status I've ever seen in history. And, and none of that could be leveraged to be like, hey, guys, this is like the most stable human being on the planet.
- [119:36]
A
And, and to add on to that, oh, by the way, I'm the guy that raised my hand to fight evil on, on the side of good. You don't have to take, you don't have to take my word for it. My background shouldn't be used against me.
- [119:49]
B
Yeah.
- [119:50]
A
It should be used to say, hey, let's, let's make sure we look at the evidence.
- [119:54]
B
Benefit of the doubt. Give me some benefit of the doubt.
- [119:57]
A
Yeah.
- [119:57]
B
Yeah.
- [119:58]
A
I'm really glad that you came out here and, and talked about that and was transparent about that one. I wanted to give you a platform to, to write a perceived wrong because that's important to me. And although this isn't about me, it's just, just something else. There's a lot of people out there that said that, let's say like, that I tear down vets or, you know, or the, the negative is true. I wouldn't have had you on this podcast if that, if that weren't so. And if that was so, then let me use my platform to, for good and to correct those, correct those things.
- [120:40]
B
Yeah. I'm appreciative of a lot of the guys, including yourself, who I was told behind the scenes. I mean, in full transparency. The last thing I cared about was social media. Obviously, when I'm fighting for my life, I turned it off, you know, and, and I, I, I really disengaged. But I heard from personal friends that certain men, including yourself, took certain positions because it was too early and, and that that was meaningful because I don't care about many people's opinions, but guys that I serve with in uniform, I care about their opinions.
- [121:18]
A
We'll go through something like that. And I bet you you could easily tell who your friends were and, and who your friends weren't.
- [121:28]
B
Yeah. You, Evan Hafer, Andy Stumpf. A lot of the guys called me, checked in on me. Dude, Evan Hafer bailed me out of jail. $10,000. They, they threw like a million dollar bond on me or something crazy. A hundred thousand dollars or whatever it was. And I didn't even know you lost that. And my mom's like, I think Evan just paid for your, your bill. I'm like, I don't know what that means because I've never been to jail. But when I walked out, Evan Hafer was there to scoop me up. Him, him and Greg Lappin.
- [122:00]
A
That doesn't surprise me at all.
- [122:01]
B
Yeah, He's a good man.
- [122:02]
A
He's another good man that does good things with. Without needing for everyone to know about it. And the more I've got to know him, the. The more I've gotten to see that he.
- [122:14]
B
He. Man, I had a hard time, man, because, you know, the prospect of losing my kids, I didn't care about my business. I didn't care about any. Anything that was going on outside of losing my babies. And, I mean, that dude held me. That little guy. That little man held me in his arms because I was just so broke over it. And. And he really stepped up. So did Andy Stumpf and a lot of the guys that just, you know, they were there, like, they would have been there in a gunfight.
- [122:48]
A
Those are the good guys in the space. And that's exactly what. What I expected them. And that. That won't change for a long time because that's who they are. Yeah, that's who they are. Well, after. After that depressing story, we're going to need the final question in a hurry. So we end this thing on a positive. The same question I always end with. Mike, tell me a funny story.
- [123:09]
B
Oh, man. Do you want one from the infantry days, one from yesterday? There's so many of them.
- [123:17]
A
Whatever you got. Whatever comes to mind. It could be basic trading for all I care.
- [123:21]
B
Oh, man. Let me think about this for a second.
- [123:23]
A
Sure.
- [123:24]
B
There's. That's all I'm trying to avoid, the dick.
- [123:29]
A
We had a guy tell a story that he got his dick caught in a. In a belt sander. Oh, that dick surgery. Yep. We've had a lot of. Two or three of them have revolved around pooping their pants on target. A lot of. A lot of.
- [123:44]
B
Okay, that's okay. You're vectoring me.
- [123:46]
A
And some crotches blown out and dick swinging on target. Oh, yeah, that's another one. People stepping in holes and disappearing on target. A ranger told a story that an ox was on target but tied up. And while he was pulling security, he didn't notice, but the ox had made a circle around him and had basically, like, tied his feet together. And when the. And when something spooked the ox, it took off. And he's now cinched his legs tight.
- [124:12]
B
Oh, my God.
- [124:13]
A
And it had to get cut off. I had to cut the. Anyway, there's just a bunch of random stories.
- [124:20]
B
So when I was in the Q course, you know how. I mean, this. This is like classic patrolling. You know how you always dug the slit trench? Yeah. Inside of the perimeter of your triangle Right. You had the, the 240@ the, the pinnacle or at the top of the pyramid. And then you set your patrol base up. Well, when you set your patrol base up, you set it up in the middle of the night. You really don't know where everybody's at. And then you wake up and you're like, the patrol base is like 10ft wide.
- [124:52]
A
You know, what were we thinking?
- [124:54]
B
And, and you think it briefs well at night because everybody's droning and. And you just accept what you got. And we dug in, in this position and that morning I was briefing on a, on a sand table. And for, for people watching this, a sand table is basically how you brief the execution phase of an operation. But you use visual representations. Right? You use little playmen. Sand string. Yeah.
- [125:23]
A
This pine cone is the building.
- [125:25]
B
Yeah.
- [125:25]
A
Pine cones.
- [125:26]
B
We carried it in a Ziploc bag. Well, I was briefing a foreign student. He was a foreign officer.
- [125:34]
A
Okay.
- [125:34]
B
And then we had foreign students in our class. In fact, one of the guys was. He was single. Singaporean. Is that the right term?
- [125:44]
A
I'll give you that.
- [125:44]
B
Yeah, Singaporean. You should know, the Singaporeans aren't even Asian. That's like an island off somewhere. They're Pacific islanders, I think. So this Singaporean, he. We're briefing this. And we don't realize that I'm briefing this like, Dutch officer, this officer who's part of this whole process, but he's a senior officer and he's with a cadre. So we're briefing back the cadre, but also this foreign officer. And there's a couple guys the leadership is around, and I'm briefing the whole op on this sand table and we're briefing it. And behind the, the officer, the Singaporean guy comes up and he's foreign and he's this good kid. He's actually. He was a free fall expert and he did all this like flying stuff for the demo team and it really squared away. Assaulter. He used to. He's that little guy, he's like, run up the ladders on a linear target, jump in the window. Window of a bus.
- [126:39]
A
Yep.
- [126:40]
B
High speed dudes and very tactically competent. But he dug the slit trench right next to the land. The. The sand table.
- [126:51]
A
Okay.
- [126:52]
B
And so everybody's briefing it and. And I hear like a. And I'm like, what the. And I look at the Dutch officer and I'm thinking, did you fart? Like, what's going on? Because nobody broke a smile. Like, he didn't laugh. And I'm like trying to Read his body language. But because the Singaporean dude was so small, he was in line with him and he was squatting behind him. And so we hear another. And everybody turns around and. And this dude's squatting over a hole that's like, right next to the sand table, like a foot behind this officer, and there's a hole. And his gaping butthole is staring at us. And an MRE turd comes out of him like a torpedo, bro. It's like an SDV team coming out of a. A nuke sub is infiltrating in this hole.
- [127:40]
A
What was he thinking?
- [127:41]
B
And all of us turn around and. Dude, we compromised the whole fire base.
- [127:45]
A
Yeah.
- [127:46]
B
And. And here's what was funny. I mean, that was funny. He blew it out his ass. So he's like, turns around, he's laughing, we're all laughing. And the instructor just walks. He walks like 10 steps.
- [127:55]
A
Yeah.
- [127:56]
B
And takes an R sim that's right out of his bag, you know, and blows us all out of the firebase. And that dude's, like, dragging his. His naked ass to his gun. Oh, it was funny.
- [128:07]
A
I hate to say it. That is the appro. That is the appropriate response to that, as. As an instructor.
- [128:11]
B
Yes.
- [128:12]
A
You know that. That is the appropriate spot. But I was actually already thinking if I was an instructor. I'm just. I'm laughing.
- [128:19]
B
Oh, yeah, I'm.
- [128:19]
A
I'm just. I'm letting that one go.
- [128:21]
B
Yeah, he smirked. He was like, giggling. And then he just got series and he just takes a couple off, like. And then everybody gets blown out.
- [128:30]
A
Oh, gosh.
- [128:30]
B
It was funny.
- [128:31]
A
Mike, where. Where can people get the book prepared?
- [128:36]
B
It's everywhere. It's Barnes and Noble. It's. It's on Amazon. And yeah, it's a book that I. I spent a couple years trying to convince the publisher to publish, and it's all on survival and preparedness. And it's. The only war stories are in there are from the mistakes that I made that lent itself into a lesson learned for survival.
- [128:58]
A
Love to hear it, man. Mike, I can't thank you enough for coming down here. We're gonna turn around and do a live. And I can't. I cannot wait for that. Thank you, sir. It. It was a pleasure. I enjoyed it.
- [129:09]
B
Yeah. I appreciate you, brother. Thank you for what you do.
- [129:11]
A
Absolutely. See you guys.