Seal Team 6 Operator | Chris Fettes

Summary

Tier1 Podcast Episode Summary: Former SEAL Team 6 Operator Chris Fettes

Podcast: Tier1 Podcast
Host: Brent Tucker
Guest: Chris Fettes (former SEAL Team 6 Operator and sniper)
Date: May 21, 2026

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Episode Theme/Overview

This episode features an in-depth conversation between former Delta Force operator Brent Tucker and Chris Fettes, a former SEAL Team 6 sniper. Together, they explore Fettes’ journey from his military upbringing and decision to join the Navy, through BUD/S, white-side SEAL operations, the transition to SEAL Team 6 (‘across the street'), and reflections on high-stakes missions—culminating in thoughtful perspectives on brotherhood, accuracy in telling special operations stories, and personal growth after service. The episode also touches on the ongoing controversy surrounding the Osama bin Laden raid, mental health in the SOF community, and Chris’ new entrepreneurial path in craft ice cream.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Military Upbringing and Motivation to Serve

[04:42-09:49]

• Fettes describes a "subconscious" pull toward service due to his family's deep military roots—his grandfather was a Colonel in the 82nd Airborne; his dad and stepfather served, too.

• The 9/11 attacks had a profound, galvanizing effect:

  “I felt a sudden deep sense of duty and defensiveness towards not just our country, but all of the people.” (Chris, 09:49)

• He reflects on America's unity in the aftermath of 9/11 and contrasts it with current times.

2. BUD/S, White-Side Teams, and Early Experiences

[11:18-26:14]

• Chris details the selection process, his A-school (operation specialist—“radar, ship navigation type stuff”), and the relative lack of overlap between early training and SEAL tasks.
• Early influences included the film "Tears of the Sun," where the grit and humility of the SEAL sniper character inspired Chris’s path.
• Discussion on SOF pop culture influence: both note that quality books/films provide valuable insight and inspiration for young men.
• The value and dangers of pre-selection programs: excessive information and gaming can hinder adaptability and genuine grit during BUD/S or similar selections.

3. First Deployments: Lessons, Loss, and Cross-Community Respect

[36:21-47:45]

• Chris arrives at SEAL Team 10, witnessing the aftermath of Operation Red Wings:

  “It was tough to watch those guys lay out all their dead friends’ equipment... it was another phase closer to the reality of combat.” (Brent, 37:49)

• Early loss: Chris recounts losing a beloved SQT classmate in a car accident en route to the team—a stark lesson in the unpredictability and fragility of life.

• Chris highlights the difference in coming up as a new operator post-invasion: newer team members learned from NCOs and lessons written in blood.

• Highlights a joint op with Army SOF and interaction with the 160th SOAR, noting the “professional jealousy” among top units working different areas and their mutual respect.

4. Transition to Tier One: Mindset and Selection

[60:25-66:13]

• Chris describes the “across the street” (to SEAL Team 6) process:

  • Encouragement from more senior guys, especially mentor Alex West, who simply told him:

    “You need to go screen. Go screen. You don’t know if you don’t do it.” (Chris, 63:33)

  • The feelings that come with crossing from white-side to black-side: exhilaration mixed with the knowledge it could be lost at any moment.

5. Brotherhood, Ego, and the Realities of SOF Culture

[81:03-83:18]

• “Collective ego vs. individual ego” — both Brent and Chris discuss the paradox:

  “Your, your own ego...it’s a collective ego at that level… The balance is very difficult.” (Chris, 80:39)

• Real confidence is necessary in high-stakes ops (especially hostage rescue); humility is just as vital off-target.

• Chris describes the unspoken bond before dangerous missions—powerful “head nods” or silent gestures convey everything.

6. Hostage Rescue & Mission Realities

[74:16-79:38]

• Chris and Brent dissect the brutal reality, risk, and emotional weight of hostage rescue missions:

  “One of three things is going to happen: you’re going to get them, the bad guys are going to kill them, or… you accidentally kill them—and that’s the worst, worst.” (Chris, 77:07)

• Such missions aren’t about personal safety but prioritize the hostage’s life, with a high expectation of casualties among assaulters.

• Chris shares his experience on a final operation—called back from terminal leave due to a rare tandem-bundle jump qualification, only to experience a “failed” mission due to a teammate’s error (and the razor-thin margins separating success/failure in Tier 1 ops).

7. The Bin Laden Raid Controversy and SOF Storytelling

[83:28-110:51]

• Chris is candid regarding the post-UBL-raid narrative split between Rob O’Neill, Matt Bissonnette (‘Bis’), and the mysterious ‘Red’:

  • He affirms their accounts largely agree up to the decisive moment—then the sequence of shooting in the room diverges.
  • Expresses frustration with the “who shot him first” debate and credits the reality that it was a “team event.”
  • Brent’s concern centers on truth/honesty:

    “For someone to take credit for something that was truly a team event … that I do have a problem with.” (Brent, 96:15)

• Chris avoids judging motivations but stresses the broader impact of narratives on the SOF community’s reputation and the brotherhood—suggesting resolution would ideally come in a “safe space” (around a fire, off camera).

8. Mental Health, Loss, and Post-SOF Life Decisions

[43:20-44:10; 112:19-114:09]

• Both discuss the compounded pain of teammate suicides, accidental deaths, and the role self-medication (alcohol) plays in spirals.
• They encourage listeners to break unhealthy cycles and support comrades—even as the world outside military service feels alien.

9. Entrepreneurship: From Operator to Ice Cream Maker

[115:11-124:26]

• Chris transitions to discussing his ice cream café (Be Free Craft Ice Cream) in Virginia Beach:

  • His approach: unique, globally-inspired flavors, no food dyes, no corn syrup, minimal stabilizers.
  • Ice cream as a source of comfort, joy, and community (and yes, the science may show it’s not all bad for you!).

  “I found a way through all of that combat and conflict in my life to realize how much these little moments of joy … with ice cream, just with this one tool.” (Chris, 118:31)

• The business journey is hard (“the hardest two things in CPG are pizza and indulgent ice cream!”), but is driven by mission, not mere profit.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Brotherhood:

  “The infinite understanding between each other, nonverbal in that moment where you just look at each other … if it’s you, I got you. If it’s me, you got me.” (Chris, 78:38)

• On Truth in Storytelling:

  “It is very, very important, especially if you’re going on media and you’re telling things that are going to become history, that it’s as accurate as it can be.” (Chris, 97:44)

• On SOF Rivalries and Respect:

  “We are not tier one, but we get to pretend like we are … Utilize the helos and stuff.” (Chris, 47:42)

• On the Bin Laden Room Debate:

  “Who all put shots in him? Which means they’re all telling the truth … Now it’s just this …” (Chris, 101:19)

• On Mental Health:

  “I’ve never met anyone that was in a bad situation and ever told me, ‘Hey, Brent, life wasn’t going real good and I started drinking a lot. And you know what? Things got better.'” (Brent, 44:10)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

| Segment | Topic | Timestamp | |---|---|---| | Initial Gifts & Gear Talk | [02:47-04:35] | | Military Family & Motivation | [04:42-09:49] | | BUD/S, A-School, Pop Culture Influence | [11:18-26:14] | | First Deployments/Red Wings | [36:21-47:45] | | Black Side Transition (Tier 1 Selection/Green Team) | [60:25-66:13] | | Hostage Rescue Realities | [74:16-79:38] | | Brotherhood and Ego | [81:03-83:18] | | Bin Laden Raid Team Debate | [83:28-110:51] | | Post-Service Life, Ice Cream Business | [115:11-124:26] |

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Conclusion

This episode is a masterclass in SOF candor, humility, and honesty. Chris Fettes shares the unseen realities of elite service—brotherhood, moral nuance, and the fragile dividing line between success and failure—while also demonstrating post-military purpose and entrepreneurial innovation. The conversation is both reflective and forward-looking, giving the SOF community and wider audience insight into what really matters: truth, community, and the never-ending journey to find meaning beyond the mission.

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For more from Chris Fettes:

• Be Free Craft Ice Cream Café, Virginia Beach, VA
• Online orders and shipping soon available (insulated, nationwide)
• IG: @befreeicecream

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“The brotherhood is the most important thing… It’s aligning with the division that’s happening in public society as well now between us. In every industry. My fight against that is to realign it.”
(Chris, 109:35)

Transcript

[A]

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[B]

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[A]

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[B]

I'm Drew Tucker, late night cake cup maker at first responder cigar coffee and cast company. Guys, I invite you to join our Patreon brought to you by Cobalt Kinetics. There you'll get behind the scenes exclusive content. There's a workout fitness forum, there's a gun forum, and there's a weapons expert from Cobalt Kinetics ready to answer all of your weapons questions.

[A]

So join the patreon and as always, this episode is brought to you by Human Performance TRT. Go to hpdt.com use promo code tier1 to get 20% all of your testosterone and peptide needs. Let's do it. Drew. Welcome to the Tier one podcast. This is amazing. Dude, check this out. And with us today, we have former Seal Team 6 operator and sniper Chris Fetus. Welcome to the show, brother.

[B]

Thanks for having me, man.

[A]

Absolutely. First things first, you brought me some gifts and I want to give you some. This is a. A gift from Tasty Gains.

[B]

Nice.

[A]

So you can travel with creatine, not have to worry about bringing powders with you. Yeah, I do. I. I use them. They're. They're great. This one is from. We go this out a little bit. And this one's from Cloud Defensive.

[B]

Awesome, man.

[A]

Thank you. Little light for you. Nice. You might. You might.

[B]

Thank.

[A]

You might need it. Traveling with young ones and. And dark places. Yeah, it's one of those things. I'm just. I'm a big fan of a white light. You know, tactically Done Right. But even as. As a civilian, I think everyone should have a thousand lumen light always at their disposal.

[B]

It needs to be in your kit.

[A]

Absolutely.

[B]

For sure. Your everyday kit.

[A]

And my favorite gift because I just love it. Brotherhood Blades does a awesome knife.

[B]

Dude. Thank you.

[A]

It's got the. The tier one logo engraved to commemorate your. Your time on the show. And it's all blacked out like. Like the black. Everything I got is black multicam, so it just. It fits. I really, really like it.

[B]

This is nice. I've been seeing their stuff. Thank you.

[A]

Yeah, absolutely. In fact, I got them making me a custom hatchet as well. And I'm really, really looking forward to that. So anyway, I just wanted to give you some gifts, say thank you for. For. For coming on the show.

[B]

Thank you. Yeah. This is awesome. You guys are not stealing this one for me. Dope.

[A]

Let's. Let's get right into it. You joined the Navy. What year did you join the Navy?

[B]

2000. 2004. The beginning of 2004.

[A]

Why. Why did you join the Navy? What. What put you to. What pushed you to join the. The military in general?

[B]

In general. I came from a family of military, so I think it almost subconsciously was there when I got to a moment in my teenage life that I realized I wasn't really doing much. And I probably wasn't really gonna do much or I just didn't realize what I wanted to do at all. And that's just kind of a time where we're all trying to figure ourselves out. Right. The college life wasn't really in the books for me, but now I'm grateful for that. But then 9, 11 happened when I was 19, so that kind of was the precipice for just think even thinking about it. So once I started to think about it, it kind of came together. I always respected my grandfather, who was a retired as a colonel in the 82nd. Really? Yeah. And so I was always fascinated with that. I used to always, you know, try getting into his bedroom so I can see the shadow box and all of his awards and ask him questions. And so I think that's something I've never really talked about much before, but I do have a lot of memories of. Of him sharing not so many stories. He. He really was quieter about his stories, but his career and some of the places he'd been. He met my grandmother.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, on one experiences more than his stories.

[A]

His travels.

[B]

His travels. Yeah. So. Yeah. And then my. My dad, my stepfather, who is my dad, was a mechanic in the. In the egress shop for F16s in the air Force. And so he was, you know, that was. That was pretty cool, too.

[A]

Was. Was your grandfather alive when you joined?

[B]

Yes, he was. He was so, so proud of me.

[A]

Oh, that. Yeah.

[B]

He had he have any inkling that I was ever going to do that? Before that, he just was like, oh, you know, he's interested in my stuff, but he's just, you know, just as kind of a skateboard punk kid, you know.

[A]

So your. Your grandfather got to see you join after. After his amazing service.

[B]

Yeah, they flew out to the graduation of buds and everything.

[A]

For me, I don't. I don't think I'm going to push my son to serve. But that. That being said, I think if my son kind of ignored that and joined, it'd still be one of the proudest days of my life as a father, so. But. So would. So would him not serving and going on to. To not do those things and feel like, you know, hey, we. I did enough for the family, so you can enjoy, like, you know, the real American dream. How do you. How do you feel about that for you and your two sons?

[B]

I've thought about that a lot because before this age, they're basically 12 and 13 now.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

They're starting to understand what dad did. And, you know, the kids at school, they're. They know now they're like, hey, they know the differences between the. The units and the tiers and, you know, different types of militaries and, you know, they're starting to see me on YouTube and stuff like that. At their age, they think you're famous if you're on YouTube. So it's fun for me. But I also know their personalities more where, you know, the older one, Braddock, is more. Not necessarily reserved, but he's more of an analyzed, you know, an analytical thinker. So he thinks ahead on things, which is a good. A good thing.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And Ethan is more of, you know, my adventurous spirit where he just jumps into things, which is awesome, but also more dangerous. So I don't know. I have an idea of which one might get interested. Right, right.

[A]

But you could somehow combine the two.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. Which I think that when you have kids, I realize it's like I've got a little bit of both of that, but they are more. More.

[A]

Right.

[B]

You know, divided on my different. My two separate traits or my different traits in their own personalities.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And then there's some new things in their personalities that I. That I never had that I see but as far as a question, I, I expect that one or the other or both maybe make it interested. And just knowing the dangers of that life is just like what I think you're talking about. Yeah, of course. I'm like, man, there are so many close calls. I can't imagine losing either of them. And all the experiences that I saw of fathers that lost their sons was like, I had no idea how overwhelming that was in probably those moments. And so of course I'll support it. And I hope they do something awesome and not be like some TikTok, you know, YouTube thing or if they do want to, whatever they do, I'll support. And I just, I know what I feel about the danger of it. It's just. That's just what will come with it.

[A]

Well, without talking to you beforehand about this question, something tells me, I hope, and you probably hope too, that they take over a national level ice cream business.

[B]

Absolutely, that's part of it. At least there's an option. There, there's two options now. There's a bigger business side of it, you know, and. Or there's just the old ice cream shop, which, you know, I intend to be, you know, some old geezer somewhere on some dairy farm in Petaluma, California, just, you know, making ice cream at home and chilling.

[A]

So to bring it back, you joined in 2004, but it seems safe to say that the, the memories of, of, of 2001 just. You couldn't shake them.

[B]

And it was so profound, even in that moment. Not really. You know, I was doing like Muay Thai on my off time and I was boxing a lot and keeping active, and I was just working kind of odd jobs, trying to figure out. Figure out what I was gonna do into my 20s. And then that happened and I was like, wow, this is just a really profound moment. It's something that I felt suddenly I felt this like, deep sense of duty and defensiveness towards not just our country, but all of the people. And that's a whole nother conversation of the fact that we're so divided nowadays. But I don't know if you remember, but at least for a few months after that, nobody cared about any of that stuff for a minute. And I'm like, man, I wish that sustained over the long term where we realize we're all more similar than different.

[A]

I know. I miss it. I've talked about on the show, especially our lives, you know, several times. I do, I miss the, the unity of, of September 12th and, and I long for it to be, to be honest, with you.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You wouldn't be the first SEAL on this show to tell me that someone, whether it be a dad or grandfather, served in the Army.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So it's always interesting to me because I didn't have to make that choice. My. My dad didn't serve, but it seems like the. The army would be your. Your natural draw. Why? Yeah, why the Navy with. With the army and. And your past?

[B]

That's probably a simpler answer than you think, because for me, it was just like, hey, if I'm gonna go in the military, I know he did this in the Army. I don't know anything about the 82nd Airborne. My dad's in the Air Force. It's cool. But I don't. I didn't. You know, I want to be out. You know, he was in a. In a hangar a lot, doing what he loves. He's always been really crafty, and he, like. He's like. He's like a master carpenter. He's made all the furniture in our house, you know, awesome. And I wish I took more time to learn that from him, but I was too busy rebelling and skateboarding around town.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But it literally came down to a memory of just a group of friends who actually had one friend sort of friend in that group named Donald that I don't even remember much about anymore. But he was always talking about being a Navy seal, and I was like. I didn't even realize what it was. But of the. Any. Any of the movies that I did, I never watched. I never watched the old school, like, Navy SEALS movie. It was Tears of the sun at some point, some year that I watched. And I remember the scene with that sniper as the point man, and I was fascinated with that because he got shot. And. And I remember that his response, you know, when the lieutenant came up to him to help him and pull him back was like, I'm sorry, sir. You know, that was a dumb mistake. And I was like, I don't know why that's so awesome, but I want to do that.

[A]

I haven't thought of Tears of the sun as a Navy SEAL movie in forever.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And it was a great movie. I can't. And we talk about again on the lives. We talk about a bunch of different subjects or, you know, even. Even with, you know, guests that are here, and they'll say movies that. That influenced them. I don't know why Tears of the sun never comes up. That was a great movie. Yeah.

[B]

It was a hostage rescue kind of thing. It kind of reminded me of Predator, where They've got to get. Get away, you know, a long distance with this, this hostage. And I'm going to rewatch it now, dude. I'm going to go rewatch it with them. I don't think we've watched it together. I'm trying to. We try to do, you know, classics where you got to watch this, you got to watch this, and they. They dig it. Yeah, we do Aliens, because I'm an aliens fan.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

But Tears of the sun, it's actually good to talk about now because of how profound of what's going on with Bruce Willis and how he now, at this point, doesn't even remember that he was this famous, just amazing actor. One of my favorite favorites of all time. And it's good you brought that up because it's like, almost like I'm, like, now more proud that that was the movie.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, that inspired me because I love. I. You know, I don't dig Hollywood that much and all their shitty values, but there are certain ones, like Denzel and him, that were just solid dudes, you know, the humans.

[A]

I've had this stance before. I will always have this stance. You know, we did a Between Two Guns episode before this. It's. It's always fun to some degree. Sometimes I think it's a little played out, actually, but, you know, to talk about seals writing books or. Or whatever it be with movies.

[B]

Yeah, I get that.

[A]

The truth is, I'm a big fan of it. I read those books before becoming a Green Beret, and I read Green Beret books, Navy SEAL books. I read every book I could get a hold of during the g. What? The way the Tears of the sun affected you, the way Navy seals and Charlie Sheen affected a whole generation. Like, that's a good thing. As long as those books are written the right way with the truth and be like, hey, this is, you know, high moral integrity. Guys are out there fighting evil. They are good. America is good. This is how we fight wars. This is the price. And you need to know. It comes with a price. I love it. I love it. And young, young men should. Should read those books and see those movies. I'm for them.

[B]

And all the hate that's out there is funny. You know, that's going on. And it's. Some of it's justified. But to that point, what you just said is like, my opinion is that too. Where it's like, it doesn't matter what industry it is, because the CIA guys, it's all glorified and write books, and that should Be the most secretive of anything. And so when they're like, well, they should be right, you're like, well, it's worth a discussion. But as long as, like the right way. Meaning to me, like, it has some value that it's trying to teach you in the story or the way that it's written, as opposed to. It's just this glorifying thing for one person or the author of it or whatever. Those are the ones, I think that. And there's very few of those. Those that have now divided the people that have this expectation of what we're supposed to be, whether it's during or after. And then when we go against that expectation in those rare cases, then it's like, well, they. All right. And it just gets generalized and generalization. Just like anything else you talk about is the. Is the opposite of intelligent, in my opinion. So, yeah, it was. It was Tears of the sun and it's awesome. Yeah. But just like you said, Predator and Commando. You, like, watch all those awesome movies and hear me out on this one. This is funny. And I knew this when I. When we named him. My older son's name is Braddock, which is Colonel Braddock in Missing in Action. And that there's a connection there that I knew. But also the Cinderella Man, James J. Braddock, the boxer. We thought it was just an awesome, common English last name. And me and my wife loved it when we heard it. And so I always have a kind of tie to.

[A]

It's a strong name.

[B]

I have a. I have a connection the same way with my army buddies and stuff. That the. The competition to me in rivalry is still friendly. And so that toxic zone that it moves, it moves into, I just mock that for fun because it drives people crazy in the comments. They just go nuts.

[A]

It is funny. It's like that. Like that. That two brothers, like, I'll give you a hard time about. About writing a book, but if someone else gives you a hard time about writing a book, it's like we both look at my. Who are you?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

What have you done? You haven't written a book. I wrote. You haven't. You haven't wrote a book because you haven't done anything worth writing a book. You know, it's. You know, it's that type.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I think people sometimes see that and think it's a little more serious than it is.

[B]

Yeah. Take it way too serious. And anybody of story, which everybody does in the world, and you want to write a book, you should, because there's, you know, there's stories. You go to the bookstore, look at all those damn books. Who's. What are you saying? Why. Why should we. Why should we not. If you have something to tell.

[A]

Yeah. Really. That it would be when you look at it getting like through the. The other lens of it by not writing a book and not sharing these stories like you're, you're. You're keeping that, you know, from, from the world from future generations. You're keeping the truth and just letting other people assume or assume that they know your story or what you do.

[B]

Yeah. It's just one of the many layers of documenting think wars and history in my opinion. And you layer those all together. We get the. We try to get the most accurate version of history through time and then there's a bunch of garbage in between obviously too.

[A]

So when the History Channel does it, we love it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But when a SEAL does it, it, you know it. Shame on him.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I mean make that make sense.

[B]

Generals and admirals can do it then it's true. You know, they'll get you started on that.

[A]

So you sign up and you go. You sign a BUDS contract.

[B]

Yeah. Sign for the Buzz contract. Back then you got like $2,000 if you made it through buds.

[A]

Nice.

[B]

I think it's like 500 grand now or something.

[A]

I hope so.

[B]

No, it's gone up a little.

[A]

That's a joke. But I hope so.

[B]

I think like a year, a year or two after I joined we heard it went up to like 40 grand for. They just needed more guys so it was more of an incentive. But like dang, I could have used 40 grand the first few years of my. My time. But anyways. Yeah. So lucky enough to have. Have gotten through everything the first. On the first try, not get rolled back or, or sent back or anything. So A school because we had ratings back then.

[A]

Right. What was your A school?

[B]

It was at. Damn. So it was operation specialists. So like radar, ship radar and navigation type stuff. Dead reckoning type stuff.

[A]

I hate to hear that to some degree. But if. But if I'm. But if I'm off a little bit, let me know the. I think it was Alex west that we had on and his A school was Como. And I was like well that's a. At least you have an A school that you learn something about radios and that translates.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So many times I hear a guy that their A school just doesn't really sing game to be. To have any, any weight to carry over to your next job. And that's. That's unfortunate.

[B]

The Only weight that mine had was the chief that was in charge of our class. Like that, that department of, you know, just our school, like essentially like the principal of the school was a wannabe SEAL guy. So he treated us that way and he acted and dressed that way and was like always in cammies when he never should have been in cammies, you know, in the schoolhouse. And I just remember going, man, I was so afraid of that guy. And on, you know, there was a deployment where he came out and supported us when I was at dev group.

[A]

Oh, really?

[B]

I remember you.

[A]

Did he remember you by chance?

[B]

I don't think he remembered me, but when I explained it to him, he was super nice about it. And I was like, I just, I didn't bring that up, but I was like, I just remember, you know, you had us like scrubbing the floors on weekends and after hours and just doing Bud style stuff. But I appreciated the Bud style stuff now.

[A]

Yeah, you go to Bud's. He said you didn't, you didn't recycle anything in buds?

[B]

No, I got through. I had a hard time at the end of third phase, but I didn't get recycled and made it through the rest of buds. You know, I don't want to say like cruise through it, but I actually, it sucked, but I enjoyed it. It was like my first opportunity in life to have this like, real validating, like brotherhood, feeling, camaraderie thing with, with guys in the class. It was awesome.

[A]

So I'm guessing on your timeline you're probably in bud somewhere around 2005 or was it in 2004?

[B]

Yeah, it was like now was towards the end of 2004, right after boot camp and you know, winter hell week going into 2005.

[A]

So in that time frame, you know, the Internet's getting, getting full of, of more information. You know, when I talk to, you know, the older guys that went through in the 90s or real early 2000, like one or two. It wasn't there. I'm guessing you had information that you could have access. Do you feel like you knew a lot about buds and what was up or did you go in pretty blind?

[B]

I, I learned about the PT tests and like what to focus on. And you know, back then there was not a lot of mentorship programs and things. There was like, they call it the Scrub program where in if you were going to BUDS and your division let you out, you could go your, your A school for certain people. Mine was at Damneck, but you could do certain A schools that you were at the schoolhouse at. You were doing those PT tests for Bud's contracts at Great Lakes at boot camp. And so then you were getting practice with swimming and mentorship from, you know, from a seal. I didn't have that and so I just, I trained as much as I could knowing the PT test that I learned from that book Warrior Elite. And that really was the only book that I read about Buds here at

[A]

the Tier 1 podcast. We're excited to have Tasty Gains as a sponsor. A company with values that aligns with ours. I take their products every day, three times a day. And if it wasn't a product that I didn't take personally and believe in and a company with integrity, then they wouldn't be sponsors on this show. Creatine helps the body produce more ATP, which is an energy molecule that your entire body runs on. It helps improve your physical and mental performance in all aspects of life. Let's be honest, creatine powder sucks to take every day. With the creatine gummies you can take them with you anywhere and they taste great. Every batch is third party tested so you know you're getting exactly what you pay for. Go to tastygains.com and enter the promo code tier one. That's T I E R the number one and get 20% off your order. I'm a little bit torn. I'm interested in your opinion about this. You know we, we have these prep programs and they're, I feel like they're giving them the answers to the, you know, to the test to some degree. At the end of the day like you have to go out there and you have to perform that and I get that. I do think there's something to be said about just all and it's never really been kept a secret usually like what the PT standard is or that there's a 50 meter swim and BDU's like there's some gateway tests that are, that are common knowledge. But to know too much about what you're going to get into, I think it takes away a little bit to really see what's, what's inside a person. When they, when they, when they don't know what's coming, they just have to deal with it. But it does increase the numbers. But that's again, I don't know if that's a good thing. I don't know what, what do you think about those?

[B]

I think it could go, it could go both ways. I saw a lot of guys just buy, they practiced stuff so much. Even in a school we Had a group of guys that were like, always doing beach runs on top of the workouts we were already doing. And I was like, dude, I'm not gonna go. I'm gonna do the program, you know, and, and also recover myself too. And not, you know, I was like shin splints and things. And so I think it also builds a lot of anticipation. If guys are too far ahead of it and they're thinking about it for so long, and then when it comes time to do it, if they haven't really visualized the worst case scenario, when the worst case scenario happens, they kind of freak out and bolt to the surface of the pool or panic in some other situation. And I was grateful that I didn't have too much anticipation.

[A]

That's a really good point. It's kind of like knowing too much about the inside of a structure in cqb because you're gaming it to us, it doesn't matter. But once you give me the inside of the structure, now I have this idea of what it's supposed to look like, and when that doesn't mirror up, it's a problem when. If I just knew nothing at all. We just take it as it, as it comes.

[B]

Yeah. And I'm sure you remember too, if you guys were doing runs after runs after runs, it got annoying if you were doing that from the same entrance or, you know, and you're like, I just wanted to switch it up on. On purpose because you kind of got bored with it and go, now, now I know for sure. My, my. Our brains are gaming this on what's the best way? What's. What's the answer for every little moment of the, of that, of those runs?

[A]

Yeah, absolutely. The. I think it's awesome that you didn't recycle anything. Luckily, when it came on the white side of soft, whether it be the key course or dive school, that. That was my biggest fear. Recycling something. And then I, and, And to me, kind of the same thing. None of it was ungodly hard, but I didn't want to do it again.

[B]

Yeah, I couldn't. Even now that I'm older too, I go, man, now I think back on those things from a different age perspective and go, I, I would quit if I even had to think about that right now. But you're willing to die back then?

[A]

Oh, for sure. Absolutely. Absolutely.

[B]

Did you cycle through everything the first try?

[A]

Yeah, I went, I went. I was first time.

[B]

Thank God. That was. Yes.

[A]

Although I've. I've had to say this before, and it's It's. It's fine. I did go to unit selection twice, but. But I. I call the first one a recce. I didn't, you know, I was just. I was just preparing myself for the real one.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I just. Because I didn't fail anything.

[B]

Yeah, that's. And that's different too. I don't need to say any, like, thing about it, but one of my greatest team leaders at Devereux was. He went through twice and was just. Just is what it is. You know, you got.

[A]

I've. I'm. I'm not embarrassed at all about going back twice. Yeah.

[B]

To.

[A]

To that. To that course. If there's one you're going to do twice, I'll. I'll take that one.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But I didn't. But I didn't think any of the other courses I'd been to before that I would have been upset because I didn't. Even though they were challenging, I didn't think they were bigger than me. If that's a good way to explain it, like, I knew I was capable of passing it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So if I didn't, it really would have been all my. All my fault. And that. That would have been a tough pill to swallow.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Is when. When you know, you could have. For sure.

[B]

It's probably maybe because there's so many questions out there and like the public per se, the Internet of people, they think they know anything about anything because of the select amount of information like we talk about it or there's certain. Certain of us that are in media. But I just thought about this the other day, where I go, man, when I go mess around with like, who's better, SEAL Team 6 or Delta Force and make a post just to. Just to see the comments blow up.

[A]

Just watch the chaos.

[B]

People that like a lot of them can't even. Probably go even in the military for, for, you know, or at least get to a point where they even get to experience that the ones that are like more negative and hateful about it. And I just. I actually now enjoy watching it. But the point being is that like, even with all of the information out there, we just talked about books. It's still only like a fraction of a percent of anything any of us ever experienced in whole. It's still only 1% of that life.

[A]

You can read all the books, you can watch all the podcasts, and you still. You have a better idea, but you really can't fathom what going through it is like. Yeah, I'm glad. I'm glad you mentioned That I think

[B]

it's more intentional collectively between all of us guys, whether we're embellishing type of guys or full blown lying guys or the ones that are honest. Telling the truth is like, it's still, you're only, it's only a fraction of that life. And you know, you know what, when, when you experience like, you got to be about that life for sure.

[A]

I. It's funny you mentioned that we just had Dunk Bailey on, which was a 2.2SAS guy.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

He talked about his selection a lot. A lot of their selection stuff is, is fairly open source, so he talked a lot about, about selection and I. And every now and again I'd say that's, that's like our selection, but you know, they have jungle phase, which we don't have. There are a lot of similarities, a lot, A lot of, A lot of differences. This guy goes into the comment section and lays out exactly what selection is like for the sas and then lays out what he believes is selection and OTC for the unit. Yeah. And you could tell this, this guy actually, he, he's, he's read a lot.

[B]

He's.

[A]

He's knowledgeable. But when I read it, I'm like, that's.

[B]

It's from a book.

[A]

That's right. That's actually, that's actually. You don't know as much as you think, you know, like, but man, he put it out there like, like it was. And he knew exactly the difference between the two. And it's just, it's just kind of funny.

[B]

I think the upside is that it's a good thing that those people are so into it that they study it like.

[A]

Yeah. You know, so I do too. It's humbling and it's awesome. Like, it's. If you're gonna be interested in something, what a. Yeah. What a great thing to be interested in. Interested in men who put their lives on the line for their brothers in their country.

[B]

Your opinions are more validated if you've done a little bit of work. Yeah.

[A]

With. I'm not anti sports by, by any means, but way, way more important than a, than.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Learning about a guy who swings a bat for a living for $150 million.

[B]

I mean, and knowing every little detail about that dude's life, you know, and statistics and, you know. Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

The. We'll, we'll. We'll swing it back here to, to your career.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You end up going to seal team 10. Is that correct? Seal team 10, at what point do you know you're going to seal team

[B]

10 towards the end of our. All of our qualification course, our SQT.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And Seal qualification training, there's another 10 months, I think, or so of more gentleman's courses. Meaning like you're not really going to fail out unless you make some critical, critical mistake or some dire mistake. But you're really learning. Like winter warfare is part of that static line. You know, you're diving shooting courses and things like that. And then towards the end of that, they start to figure out what teams need what. What spots and kind of give the guys an opportunity to choose. Choose which coast you wanted to go to and make little deals if you didn't like where you got, you know, and somebody wanted to switch and stuff like that. That was all kind of available.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

I actually did that. I wanted to go to the east coast.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And a guy really wanted to stay on the west coast with his brother. So we swapped orders. And also back then the SDV team, which Hawaii and Virginia beach, the mini submarine team, delivery vehicle team was like every other class. The majority of guys were going to that. And so I landed on one where we didn't have to do that. So only a few guys. A couple of guys went to that and the rest went to the teams.

[A]

You're talking about jump school. Am I understand it right? Did you go to jump school with. With Kyle Morgan?

[B]

No.

[A]

Do something with Kyle Morgan?

[B]

Yeah, I met Kyle Morgan and not. Didn't really even really realize it and especially didn't realize we were going to come besties later in life like we are now. When I was in the tandem bundle course for your guys's course.

[A]

That jump course.

[B]

Yeah, the delta bundle course.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Which. That was the closest I ever came to dropping out and probably should have gotten. Dropped out when Braddock was due to be born. During the course.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And we needed the quals just really bad.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

We needed like one or two more calls to be ready for standby after deployment.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And instead of the jockeying around that they'd have to do between squadrons at the time. So I went and really struggled and the pressure was on. My cadre was one of the most badass Red Squadron dudes ever. And he was in. He came to Silver to help commission the team.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And was like, I'm going to be your guide and you're going to be the best in the class. And I was like, oh, fuck. And then I was like the last in the class. Like the not handle that well and it doesn't matter what's going on in Your life like that. That was true. But you still. It's, it's tier one, dude. You got to go.

[A]

So the tandem bundle course was something. I'll just, I, I shied away from it. I, I, I didn't, I wanted nothing to do with it. Now don't get me wrong, like, if, if they, if they were like, hey, we, we need someone. You are a proficient jumper. You're going. I mean, I wouldn't have fought it at all, but let me tell you this, I wasn't volunteering for it.

[B]

I didn't know what I was getting myself into with that one, to be honest with you. Yeah, I was a jump guy. I was pretty newer in the jump. You know, I had, I didn't have enough jumps. I mean, you probably need to be really proficient at that course more like, I don't know, 3, 4 or 500 at least. I had barely 200 and I was excited to be a jumps me. But that for sure was a subject matter expert that I forced myself into as a recce guy to go, man, I'm gonna make myself enjoy this. And then I never really did. I never was really, that I was just as uncomfortable with it as I was with breaching, but more comfortable than I was with breaching.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So selection was fine with door poppers and, you know, had some experience down at Little Pete's and doing cool breaching, you know, courses, but I was never comfortable with, you know, building charges and you know, I carried a car, I carried minimal grenades. As a recce guy, I just was like, man, explosive explosions just wasn't wasn't me. I was more, you know, so. But jumping I was like a little less, a little more comfortable with. So we went to. And that was definitely, you're right, is like, like man town. It was just like, it's just adrenaline dump every day, all day and just super technical and scary, to be honest with you. Everything starts three in the morning, you know. Oh, you're just smoked.

[A]

I hated those days. Yeah, any, any, any jump week or jump training. Yeah, the three in the morning start, just tough.

[B]

Honestly, I, I did enjoy some elements of jumping, but not as a whole. Not like the guys who are really proficient and get really nasty at it and really thoroughly enjoy it. You know, I was always a little envious of those guys and how much they enjoyed it because they really love it.

[A]

You know, we'll, we'll put a pin on this because, but like anything else you did, you did something else to separate yourself and any get as I tell People this, if you're in the military or college at a job, get as many certifications as you can.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because you don't know when it's going to come back to be beneficial to you. Don't know the ones you really need. You don't really know the ones you don't need. And, and this, that one's going to come back and be important for you later on in your career. So we'll, we'll, we'll definitely get, get back to that. Going back to, to the white side when, when you show up to seal team 10. What, what year is this?

[B]

So we finished up, wrapped up around the end of, towards the end of 2005 and started the cycle four. And it was like the very beginning of, of those long, you know, 16 month, 18 month cycles, a year and a half workups, full workup. You know, those guys were not even yet back from deployment and you know, some of the, you know, they were doing recovery for the Red Wing thing on that deployment at the end of it. So they were coming back from that whole thing and we were the new guys kind of waiting there to join up.

[A]

Yeah, I don't talk about this a lot because I. Because no, no reason to until it becomes relevant.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

My first deployment was 05 into Afghanistan. Got there winter and we staged at a little camp inside Bagram called Camp Ouelette.

[B]

Okay. Yeah.

[A]

And we were there right when Red Wings happened.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And there was that turnover and they had laid out all of the, you know, those guys equipment and, and their tough boxes. It's Campoulette was their camp actually. It's where they, where they feel, where they stayed, where they brought all their stuff to him. There was a, there was a Navy SEAL element there and it was, it was tough to watch those guys lay out all their dead friends equipment and, and this is me going to combat for the first time.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I, and I'm in Bagram still. I haven't even gone forward yet going, wow, this.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, combat's real. Like it's, it's not real in the books, it's not real in training. But when you see that and it wasn't. I say real yet because I had, I hadn't experienced it yet. But it was, it was just one of those like another phase closer to see the reality of combat. It was, it was tough to watch those guys deal with that.

[B]

Yeah, that must be tough. The early, just the GWOT guys in general, I think that it was, I'm grateful for it. Now. But yeah, it really was that experience of like, all right, you're going to your team and this is popping off and go on deployment. It starts, you know, you're in, you're in it. And even for us, like, we had this really tragic thing happen that affected all of us going into that, knowing, hey, a lot of us are going to be going to Iraq right now and some Afghanistan, because it's already a couple years into that.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And we had this amazing officer in our SQT class who was like a rugby star at the academy. You know, when guys pass you, you say great things about him, but it's always hard if like, because he was like a great, great dude, you know, and big guy too. So he was like 6, 5. He was like the big guy of the class, but like the, the, the fun loving big guy who was like a stud wrestler. You know, a couple of the guys that were getting into jiu jitsu early on would wrestle with him and he would just, you know, not hurt them too much, but give them a workout. Right. Nicest personality ever, but stud. And he was meeting up with, you know, we all were excited to graduate and go to our teams. He was going to Team 10 as well with a few of us and we were like kind of caravanning across, but he kind of left a night or two early to jet across. And he was so excited to meet up with his fiance at the time, who's a great friend of mine now.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And in our community there in Virginia beach. And she's been there the whole time, Van Wilson. And he, he overcorrected while he was sort of nodding off in Nevada at some point, excited to get there, and flipped the car and, and passed away. The craziest thing was that we all heard this tragic news and like, oh my God, it was very devastating for the class at the point where all those, all the teams we were going to and they all knew about him.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Because the cadre of buds and they all loved this guy and like this guy's legendary already just in selection, you know, the way that he is. And so they, they let those teams know, hey, these guys are all going to go to his hometown and be there for the services in the family for like a week and a half or two. And we all did that. And then we went and checked into our teams, but on the way across, me and the guys that were going to Team 10 stopped at where that happened and realized this, this crazy thing that was connected, which was our class was 254 in buds and the mile marker where this happened was 254 right there.

[A]

No way. So that's crazy.

[B]

His BUDS class because they join SQT after because they go all do their officer things and then go into the next SQT class. So he technically was in 253 but was in sqt class 254 or our class. So that was just a crazy connecting thing there. And you know I truly believe that God needed him as a warrior up there so. Because it's what didn't make any sense otherwise for it to be that way. But yeah, so that was like my first experience with any loss and then joining to my team and that red wing stuff. Those guys came back and you heard all those stories and everything about that and then start the workup with the, with my team.

[A]

Some follow the noise. Bloomberg follows the money. Whether it's the funds fueling AI or crypto's trillion dollar swings, there's a money side to every story. Get the money side of the story. Subscribe [e-mail] I tell you what, it's as you know, you know, losing friends in combat is tough. Of course it's tough to some degree, but when they fall in combat it makes it. This is going to sound weird to some people, but it makes it a little bit easier because you understand what happened and you. Everyone knew the risk.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

This is war. This happens. I also lost a friend to a vehicle accident and that one to me was, was harder to take because it seemed senseless, you know, because it seemed like it didn't have to happen or you know, they didn't go out like a warrior, although they were.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And that, you know, those, those ones, you know, you would, it's hard to, to some degree hard to explain, but they do, they, they, they hurt a little bit worse.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Because we all go into it knowing man, I could be, could happen. We all accept it. It's part of the deal. But yeah, I feel like what you're saying a little bit about now when guys take their own lives, especially when I find out that there was like heavy drinking going on in that moment and they were out.

[A]

Right.

[B]

This one happened recently actually I'm talking about. And you're like, man, however he was feeling wrapped up inside whether people didn't know or not, if that always brings it out worse, more and makes it just that much easier per se to do it right with the inhibitions and everything being affected. And it feels like that works like it's not senseless. Or needless because of the way the guy was feeling. But it feels that way because it didn't have to happen. As opposed to the combat, which kind of has to happen, you know.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And I mean that in a way. It's like there's mistakes and things that happen, but it's combat, you know.

[A]

Exactly. I, it's. Yeah. I just feel the need to say this because it's, it's, it's just impactful to me. You know, a lot of people are going to watch this episode and want them to hear this. You know, I've never met anyone that was in a bad situation and ever told me, hey, Brent, life wasn't going real good and I started drinking a lot. And you know what? Things got better. And I, and you know, that's not me, you know, necessarily judging, you know, anyone, because I get it. And that's human nature. I do get it. But I also think if, if people go to bad times and they hear things like that, that just, they just, it's just logical. Even though they know it, but you know, it never gets told out loud.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Maybe they'll, they'll hear that and be like, you know what? I'm not, I'm not going to start down this road because there's no, there's no way. It, it helps.

[B]

It just numbs. So you're like, you're already numb and now you're just adding numbness to it in a moment.

[A]

Yeah, I hate to hear that. The what when you get there and did you go to Afghanistan first?

[B]

Iraq first?

[A]

What? And in the oh, five time frame?

[B]

Yeah, we got there 2006. Oh, sorry. It was like towards the end of 2006 it went into, is the early part. It was like beginning spring, summer into 2007 is when we did the deployment. Seven month deployment.

[A]

And what I mean by that, of course everyone wants to be there during invasion, but as a new team guy. And I didn't know this either because my first deployment was 05. But of course the invasion was great and it was the wild, wild west. But we didn't, we were learning things. Yeah. Such a. We did not know exactly what we were doing. But when I got there in 05, and I'm sure when you got there in 07, you got to lean on guys that had already learned those hard lessons.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And you fall in on these well oiled machines that are like been there before. Been there several times before. This is how we do it. And you fall in on a, again, a weld oiled machine. And that was. That was. That was awesome to. To get that experience of hit the ground.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Running and just follow what. What they learned the hard way.

[B]

Yeah. And it was developing so fast and learning more things the hard way. I mean, we were doing all of our clearances.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Hostage rescue, combat clearance wasn't a thing that we learned yet from. From Tier one. As they were developing it, it was like, you know, rushing in, breaching and rushing in everything. But to. To your point. Yeah, it did feel like that, but it also felt good. Turning over at the end of our deployment on a. Our turnover op was this huge firefight where a guy got sniped on our team from some. Some like a wooded area. I was a JTAC. So we're dropping, you know, Winchester in AC130. And that was like, all right, team two, that. That was their turnover. So if you pay attention, you know, and they're like, oh, you know, it's going to be like this solder city and everywhere and like. Yeah. But it was a good feeling to then go. We oiled it more now for the next guys.

[A]

That's right. They pushed the ball forward 75%. But I love the mentality of American special operations, that good is never good enough. And the next team came and pushed it, whether it be 1%, just the relentless pursuit of perfection.

[B]

Yeah, absolutely. You reminded me of that feeling when I met my first group of army guys in. During combat time and was that we did this operation stage out of biop.

[A]

Okay. Yeah.

[B]

And that's where they. That's where they had their ready rooms, you know, and they were operating. We were on another. A different camp down the road from what became Camp Lewis. After one of the ops we went on that Jason Lewis got killed in an ied and we got to work with. It was task force 17 we got to work with. We were not tier one, but we got to use the 1 60th in. In on ops back and forth with dev group. And like, you know, we. It was awesome for us. We were like, dude, we get. Yeah, like, we are not tier one, but we get to pretend like we are.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And at least utilize the helos and stuff.

[A]

It was little birds.

[B]

We. We did not. Some guys did get to ride the little birds. Was mostly the 60s and the 47s, right?

[A]

Yeah, right.

[B]

I think that they were like, you know, we didn't have really true recce elements, you know, and we for sure used the ahs for fires.

[A]

Yeah, man, that's so cool. You got to do that.

[B]

I got to rope them in on one call, one time was awesome. Like, with an islid. I felt so stupid. The pilot was like, I was this new guy, jtag. I had a lot of drops, and I thought I had a lot of experience. And then we went over there, and my troop platoon chief was like, hey, all right, you're going to talk to these pilots because we get to use them for fires tonight. It's like a special deal, right? And the guy was like, hey, you know how. You know how to rope us in on a. On a. On a gun run if you need it, right? And I was like, yeah. And I just made it up. I was like, no, I don't know. I was like, I will just. You know, I will have the AC130 sparkle what I want to hit, and then I will point to that with a laser, right? And you do that, and you hit that. And he was like, no, nice drive. Yeah. And he looked at me like I was an idiot. And I was like, sorry, I don't. I don't know what I'm talking about. You know, like, you just tell me, you know? And he's like, all right, do this. You know, like, rope us around the heat, the little bird when you see us, and then point it at the thing and wiggle it. It's like, rope us. Wiggle it, and we're gonna hit that, right? All right. That's how he does it, you know, So I learned early on for that, you know, So I knew something when I got the dev group, you know,

[A]

but you guys got that experience because I. Everyone else doesn't realize, you know, they think of regular SEAL teams and SEAL team 6. They're both SEALs. Like, they. They must be similar, you know, that Special Forces or a terminology for Green Berets and the Delta Force and it must be similar when it couldn't be any further from the truth. Like, the. The white side and the black side do not talk. Generally speaking, I'm just talking to generalities. They don't. They don't talk. They don't.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

They don't do things together like they are. They are separate.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And when I landed in Biop in O6, I was waiting to go meet my team because I showed up, like, a week late. So I was there for, like, two weeks.

[B]

You were Green Beret then.

[A]

I was a Green Beret, yes.

[B]

That was the original point I was going to make. Not the helo pilots. That when we went there, I got to meet a team of Green Berets and they let us use their ready room to get our charges and everything ready. And we got to see and compare.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And at first it was like, whose dick is bigger? And then like, like somebody broke the ice, played some music, grabbed some. Some. Some burgers. And after that it was like, dude, I wish we could operate together the whole deployment. And it was awesome. I got. And that was my first experience with SF guys. And I was like, they're. We're the same. Like, we're more similar than different.

[A]

Exactly. That's so true. We're so similar, but at the same time, everyone's just a little bit different. And because you're working on a high level and you just want that 1%, you know, 1% better, whatever it is.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And no one. No one has, you know, after. After the. The butt sniffing's done before that or if you don't get to meet them very much. Like, no one has the courage to be like, hey, let me see your kit.

[B]

Yeah, I'm.

[A]

Some of the simplest kit. Like, you know, and if one thing's off, why do you put that there?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And get to hear like, oh, this is. You know, we did this mission. That's why I used to. I used to wear it there too. And now I wear it here because of this. And that's so small, but it's such a big thing to get to talk to people.

[B]

So whether your ego is in front of or not, you're thinking about it going like that dude did something smart with his kit that I. I'm gonna copy or whatever.

[A]

Yeah. But when I was there as a Grie Bray at biop, I was staying these shoes that were right next to the Delta Force guys, I didn't know it at the time.

[B]

What'd you say? Jews choose the.

[A]

Choose like a Chinese Jew. Yeah, the. And I heard these. These birds start spinning up. But at the time, I'd done some combat rotations and a lot of training. I knew what a Blackhawk sounded like. This thing sounded higher pitch. I was like, that's weird. So it's kind of caught my attention. I look over and right over these walls, and right over the top of the trees come these little birds with these guys hanging on the side and you're. And I was like, oh, my God,

[B]

how do I get to that.

[A]

That's. That's the Delta Force. I know that's the Delta Force. I saw them. Yeah, I saw them. It's.

[B]

I saw them.

[A]

Right? And of course, it would have never. A few tone that time. Like, you're gonna be in the dull force. Like, no, those guys are. Those guys are gods.

[B]

Remember, some of them were senior dudes that I respected in my platoon. We were overseas in Unit two, where there was no combat for a part of our deployment in Germany, where we were doing, okay, training, you know, things with partner forces in, like, Nigeria and stuff in Somalia and different places. And. And there was, like, some hostage rescue that Devreux went on that we heard about, and they were all pissed, and we didn't know any better, but they were like, what the. We're already here with Zodiacs. We can just inflate them and we can go do that. And, like, it's just. It's the same. We're this. It's just another team, right? And I remember, like, chiming in, like, yeah, it's just another team. And then, you know, realizing that it is much different and it doesn't. They don't always want to say it too, with. It is. When we're talking about it, I don't ever want to make sure that it doesn't ever say that any other unit or any other force, conventional or not, or anybody in the military, is not valid because of that. We're just talking about levels, right?

[A]

And. And we. We highly concentrate on one particular thing, and that's, you know, high value target and hostage rescue rates specific and. And regular. And Whiteside Seals and Whiteside Green Berets have a larger spectrum that they have to worry about. It would be offensive if you were to tell me that they're just as good as me. When that's the only. When that's. Well, nonsense. They the only thing, but when that's what my primary focus is. Because I wouldn't say that I'm as good as them at everything that. That they do. Holistically, that would be offensive to them.

[B]

I don't know about, like, tank warfare or, like, what maneuvers we would do or anything like. But, yeah, so, like, I always make that point because the Internet of people and my friends that are all not Special Forces dudes, it's like. It's not an invalidating thing. It's just. I think people are fascinated with Tier 1 and Special Forces in general, sometimes more than regular military or conventional because of the lifestyle of it and what it takes to get there for sure. You know, we're always talking about selections and what it takes to get there and. But think about this. Okay, question for you. When you were on deployment with your guys, when you were in the Delta Force, in your hooches and you know how you used to connect video games sometimes or Call of Duty or whatever, the games you played or, you know, in the courtyard, you're playing basketball or whatever. When it was time to watch movies or shows, what do you remember you guys watched the most?

[A]

Ironically enough, Point Break. For whatever reason, we watched that movie ever. Deployment.

[B]

Oh, yeah. That's a classic to watch over Point Break. You know, classic Predator Commando, all the old school movies. But like, we, We. I remember this dep. We binge watched Band of Brothers, right?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And that was our favorite one.

[A]

I say that, and I'm thinking of the things we watched. Platoon. Not Special Operations. Band of Brothers.

[B]

Not Apocalypse now.

[A]

Like Apocalypse, which is quasi special operations, but not.

[B]

But not necessarily Fury or Marines, like Thin Red Line.

[A]

We watched Fury.

[B]

Yeah, Fury. So my point being is, like, I don't think it's a true generalization that, that. That we Special Forces guys necessarily get more attention per se, you know, because it's just that there's more sort of fascination with it because of the lifestyle of it, I think. Well, because all those classic movies are the most. The best war movies ever. And Black Hawk Down's in there too. But, you know, like Saving Private Ryan and Band of Brothers is like my

[A]

favorite Ryan for sure. You know, it's funny, Evan. We would. We would watch Navy SEALs with which it's just. It's just a classic. Like. Yeah, you have to watch it.

[B]

They won't miss any action. We'd watch in the scene where he's like, eating the rat. That's like in the bag.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

One of the best scenes.

[A]

You're like, I'm telling you those. Of. Of course, the combat itself. This just goes without saying. Those are some of the best times, which. But, man, just hanging out with the guys, watching movies, you know, working out. This is gonna be. I hate to say this, but it's true to a point. Like, it's. It was almost like a. At times it felt like a guy's hunting trip. Yeah. Just. Just you and just you and the boys, you know, having. Having the. Having the time of your lives, you know, the most dangerous hunting trip you could sign up for.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But it didn't always really feel like that. So it's a weird thing to try to convey.

[B]

Yeah. There's different. Many different layers to it, I think. But those were the best memories when. Even if it was hard moments in between missions where, like, just those few hours you'd get to stack up in the little. The little, like, stadium tiered Seating. We put in the hooches to watch a show like that. Oh, and crush ice cream.

[A]

I. On the white side. This is, this is ironic. On the white side, my living conditions were better than when I was at the unit.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. I'd usually have a big room, you know, all to myself. We'd have our own base that, you know, that we tuned and we had. But you know, at the unit side, I, I usually had a roommate or we slept in, you know, open bay. Like the team had this one room because we moved around a lot or, Or.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Constantly in and out where everyone's just together.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So. But that, that made it special because you couldn't. At least in essay, if you want to go to your room by yourself, like you could.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

There's no getting away from the guys. Like, you're all crammed. You're all crammed in there. So you're hanging out.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. And then you get used to that and learn to love it.

[A]

The. Did you. Where, where. Where you at in Iraq? I think you Solder city in and about on that first trip?

[B]

Yeah, Most of the ops were there and some of the Alamara, Bacaba sometimes

[A]

was a good one too. Yeah, we had a spicy rotation that, that, that time frame, that area.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

On your first deployment.

[B]

Yeah, it was the most intense. I mean, I think we did close to 100 ops on that one. And you know, the Deployments in Tier 1 are shorter. Four month deployments, so the op tempo just was never. I mean, we had some hard missions and, and stuff, but the op tempo was never as much as that first one.

[A]

Yeah, that's. I had a very good first deployment too. And it ruins you a little bit because that's, that's your first taste of rotation. And so to you like that, that, that plants the, the, the stake in the ground. Like that's what normal is when it, you know, may not necessarily be true.

[B]

Yeah, I, I watched your episode with Alex and he made a good point where it was like, hey, we were like, for a minute, you know, the dev group was a little professionally jealous of your AO in Syria, different places, because your op tempo was high. And they were like, man, we were doing good stuff. But we were. Because like you said, you're chasing that and you're like, you want that optimo all the time. Every time.

[A]

Afghanistan just sucked. It was a tough place to do combat.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

The infills, the terrain, the buildings themselves were not fun to hit. Yeah. Generally speaking. Yeah. We got some. You can get into Some city work and Jalalabad you can do some. Some city work with sporadic.

[B]

It wasn't urban, like. Like that.

[A]

Yeah. Even the urban stuff still wasn't great and. And not that often.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, no one wants to squeeze through a mud hut door and kit.

[B]

It was more endurance. Yeah. Our workouts were like, you got to go 8 to 12 clicks every night, you know, up and down terrain, and we had to.

[A]

It was the best decision, I mean, tactically, that. That every time we did that, it was the right call. But, man, was it painful.

[B]

There was one misconception maybe we had or maybe it wasn't for a period. It seemed like on one of my. My second JDAD deployment with Silver, with Dev Group, we were like, dude, fuck this. Let's just go to the X like the Delta guys are doing every time. Sometimes, you know, sir, we're like, tired of walking 12 miles every night. Let's just go to the X on this one or the Y, you know?

[A]

Oh, I'll tell you this.

[B]

We.

[A]

We didn't walk in every time. That. That's.

[B]

I was.

[A]

That's for sure. We didn't walk in every time. We. If it made sense, you know, we would walk in rather than the. The easy answer.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But if we thought we'd get away with the ax, we'd. We'd take it to the end.

[B]

It was like the offset infill was a standard, and we were like, can we just do a few. Land a little closer and just, you know, on the wire.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Promise we'll get up to the door fast and not, you know, the.

[A]

To jump ahead just a little bit. When. When you decided to. To go to Tier one? Do you guys have any cool slang for it or words? Like. We call it, you know, taking the long walk the other side of the fence. Is it. What's. What's your terminology?

[B]

We said, like, across, across the street.

[A]

Okay, so we decided to go across the street. What. What was it that made you. And I'll say this, you know, facetiously, I know this wasn't what you really thought, but there's a party that must have. There's a little bit of truth there, or you wouldn't have done it. What is it at this stage of your career? Like, I'm better than everyone else or good enough to be a tier one guy.

[B]

The thing that made me even think about that I could go be a tier one guy was Alex. So my. And I did, like. I always ended up in jbed on that camp. I think I Did four deployments there to include the first one I was ever there. Was augmenting his team there when I was on the rotation before my selection. So.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

I went and augmented for their whole deployment. We were, you know, he was my team leader, and it was, you know, me one and one other guy from my team augmenting him at an outstation. So I was getting a lot of JTAC experience doing that with him.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And I thought I was going to go there to be just a comms guy.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And I got this crazy opportunity because most guys were going to just be a radio RTO guy with a. With a task force. So especially another special situation I lucked out with. And, you know, those chow halls are legit to, like, espresso and lobster tails and. Oh, yeah, nice rooms, you know.

[A]

Okay. Are we there for the. With the Omega teams?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay. Yep.

[B]

But right down the road, the task force was there, and this crazy situation, one of their CCTs had been falling out on. On ops. Like, he was a skinnier guy. I don't know what it was, but there was one point where another assault, an assaulter, had to carry his radio and do his job, and he was just carrying a gun. So they sent him away, and Alex jumped on that because it would give him more ops and to bring us guys and have another assaulter with them. And they were like, yeah. So he was like, hey, this is an awesome deal. Don't it up, you know? And I was like, all right. And I got more calls doing that as their secondary CCT guy, and I ended up getting more calls than their CCT guy because I just. I got to roll next to the troop chief all the time. And we had some crazy experiences doing that. And back at the outstation, you know, we were going back and forth for and doing both sides. It was awesome. And just with the conversations and hanging out and, you know, having drinks sometimes and stuff was like, man, this is really awesome. And. And I'm thinking about, like, do you think that I would make it if I went to screen? He's like, you need to go screen. Go screen. You don't know if you don't do it, you know? So I did, and, yeah. And I ended up in a green team with him as my cadre.

[A]

Oh, really?

[B]

Yeah. And I wasn't the best guy. I wasn't the worst in the class. You know, I. I struggled a little bit towards the end of assault, but just, you know, that was. That was pretty standard for me, was to be somewhere in the Middle, you know, I think. And you know, when it came draft time, yeah, I ended up going to Silver. But, but fast forward to now and all the things he's doing that are so awesome and he's just a great dude. I love watching the interview, but like, yeah, that was my sort of mentor into that and he didn't know that at the time, but it was just true.

[A]

I'm sure there's a similarity, even though we don't know much about the different squadrons and we're otc. But now you're close enough, you get to hear some things and everyone has a squadron they want to go to, whether it be where their friends are at or a culture of the squadron that you hear about or because your instructor came from that, that squadron.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

Was there a squadron you wanted to go to?

[B]

Yeah, I think that primarily I landed in the one I wanted because all the team 10 guys that went there previous to me, a lot, a bunch of them were there. So I knew guys that I was deployed with. There was at least five or six of them that were in senior more, you know, on their second or third rotation there. Yeah. So I was comfortable there. And so it was either that or the only other places I really knew anybody at all was, was Alex and Red. So yeah, I think I ended up with the one I wanted to go to because of those Team 10 guys.

[A]

Yeah. To, to back up a little bit because this is, it's, it's a experience I'll never forget. No one ever will. We just talked about like how separated the Tier 1 units are from the, from the white side units. Do you remember the first day prior to like when you checked in for, for Green Team that you, you walked behind that, behind that fence as, as an employee there, if you will, and be like, no, like you're not there yet. You still got green Team. But, but you're, but you're there, you're

[B]

there and I, I speak for myself, but I think it's probably true is like you're playing it cool. You know, you're like, pretend like you've been there before. Right? Same thing. First time you're riding little birds around a city on a rut. You know, first, same thing. First time you're doing a mock up hostage rescue in like Gillette Stadium or somewhere.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, with the staff of the team watching you guys.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Every, all those moments it was like, play it cool. But I remember thinking on some of those moments like, this is, this is like the action movie life that I always That I dreamed of. Right.

[A]

You know, people write books and movies and. Yeah, there's.

[B]

That's what's.

[A]

Hard to describe stories of this place. I'm here. Like, it's just crazy. It's a crazy feeling, you know, when

[B]

I write my book.

[A]

Yeah, well, I said it's a crazy feeling, but the feeling is tainted knowing that you. You could lose it, you know, next week because you. Because you're still going through a selection process.

[B]

You could lose it in an instant.

[A]

Right.

[B]

So that. That is part of it too. But. But I think that's what's missing from some. I'm just kidding about the book. Mine's gonna be like, ice cream recipes or something with like, camel's milk or something. But the thing I think is missing in some of the ones I read. I don't read a lot of them is like, people are starting to hear it over and over again. So as they get used to it, it's becoming less and less profound. But I think one thing is missing is like the smell of the air and the sound of the propellers and the flying with the wind in your face and some of those descriptive things that make you feel what you're saying, which is, I'm do. I'm doing like, I'm a. I'm a. I'm an operator right now.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Doing this action adventure lifestyle.

[A]

You know, you could do both. You could have. You could have the greatest ice cream book ever. Tell a war story and then say when we got back from that, the best ice cream that could have coupled from that experience is. Is this flavor.

[B]

Yes. Just pair it with, like, feet experiences.

[A]

Gonna force it together and see. Let's see how it goes.

[B]

Great idea. I'm trying to think of an editor. Dylan.

[A]

Yeah. We're gonna make ice cream. We're gonna make ice cream exciting again is what. Is what we're gonna do.

[B]

Yeah. Because it's. It's bland, it's boring, it's too healthy. Now it's like, dude, if you're indulging ice cream. Yeah. But as long as the ingredients aren't toxic, you know?

[A]

How long did you spend at the tier 1 unit?

[B]

2010 to 6 years. Almost 7 years is towards the end of the year as I got out and I was on terminal leave, but my terminal leave was pretty action packed. Like, I didn't really get a terminal leave.

[A]

I do want to talk about that because that is crazy. You would talk about action, Literally action packed from the beginning to the end of your time there. Like, you could. You Couldn't have. You couldn't have squeezed in a mission any later into that, after that, my buddies.

[B]

It didn't. It was a failed mission, but not because of anything, you know, terrible. And they ended up getting recovered sometime later. Anyways. Honestly, I've held this back a little bit, but one of my biggest, like, haters in the world is a guy that I believe compromised that mission by being a doofus and falling off his ladder and creating this, like, explosion of a sound that gave the bad guys, you know, 30 seconds to. In 30 seconds is a long time.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

On that.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

To kick and stuff these guys down into this tunnel that was right in the middle of the room that they had right next to. Just in case.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And because I was able to, like, go study years later, after I was out and read the report of those hostages and what they saw and felt and heard and lines up with what happened, but exactly play by play where they, like, I got stuffed down this. We heard a big noise, and then I got stuffed down in this tunnel and knocked out. And then I came back to. And then there was a bigger explosion, which was the breach, in my opinion. Yeah. A few seconds later. And so I've held that. But, you know, eventually that guy will get out someday and may or may not realize that hating just doesn't matter that much. But point. Point being is, like, it. It could have been sour. I see it as a great experience now, and I still think it was awesome that I got to go do that last mission.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Because everything that I did was tactically sound, and it was great. And the team, you know, and it was a great. It was a great op.

[A]

I said, put a pin in that. Because we were talking about the tandem bundle course.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And you were on terminal leave, but because you're a tandem qualified, they. They needed you.

[B]

Correct. And it's not like that's like they needed you, you know, they needed me.

[A]

Skill set.

[B]

Yeah. It was like the way that it happened was because of a mistake that the. The commands, you know, our. Our team kind of made that. We've. Same thing where you talk about where, like, you get too comfortable, you know?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And when you're on standby, you're supposed to be ready to go anywhere in the world. And because nothing was happening for some time before that, for the. The previous few standbys, they were like, hey, the training has to happen. If we're just sitting around and we're like, we're not sitting around. We're just. We're in the Kill house all day, every day.

[A]

Right.

[B]

You know, so there were some guys that had those quals and recce guys we needed that were shooting. And usually you have time. You have a day, maybe, Right. In this case, we were. By the time it spun up, we were out in hours.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

And so that's why they were like, those guys are going to come meet us. But we've got, you know, a little more than a minimum force right now. We need a tandem, and a recce guy would be, you know, we need an experienced recce guy. And that was me. Because when we got back from our deployment in Somalia, there was no reason for me to go do anything else except turn everything in and go on terminal leave and go on vacations and stuff and use my leave up. But there was another jump trip, and I was like, hey, man, I was like, I want to go jump, you know, and still be part of the team, you know? And so I went and jumped, did a bunch of bundles and tandems for. For one last shindy. And thank God I did that qual, because I was current on that. And when that spun up, Troop Chief was like, hey, like, we really need help planning this. And I was joking. As I said, I was so depressed because they were spinning up and I was just on my computer doing emails. And I left because I was like, man, this. I don't want to watch these guys, you know, spinning up. I'm gonna go home and go for a run. Came back from the run, picked up my phone. Troop Chief called him and was like, hey, we need help planning the routes. And could be a hey ho. Might. Might be an infill, whatever. I was like, yeah, came. Oh, if I come do all this, like, can I go on the op? You know, I got. I got the call, you know, I'm current. And he's like, wait, do you have all your. Your blowout stuff and your kit? I was like, everything I need for my men force. And I got my. My 300 blackout and my nods.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

In my kits. And so he, like, went and checked with the CEO and the master chief and they were like, yeah, yeah, yeah, let's get him on it.

[A]

Let's.

[B]

We need a tandem. We got a medic. We need tandem in with the cmc. Did a tandem, which was badass.

[A]

Really?

[B]

Yeah. And I'm super good friends with him now still. He retired, but we landed together next to each other with two tandems on that op. And then I went up with the point element and took us to target. It was awesome. And then literally because of that, we had a follow on to a huge compound. And then the Rangers got involved and started doing different hits. And this was all the network of compounds that that network of dudes had been using for hostage taking for the whole gwat. To get them across to, you know, in Capiza. To get them across to Pakistan.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And so Bergdahl was held at, like, one of these and another and, you know, was held at one. So it was. It was a known thing that we weren't operating in all the time. So that's how it went down. And then after that second one, I was like, hey, guys, I gotta. I gotta get home to my job in three days, you know. You know, I did all these interviews and stuff with Northrop Grumman, right. To get it, and if I'm. If I miss it, I lose my. I'm like, that's not good. So they flew me home. I took a. You know, I went to the. Flew back to Bath and caught a flight home and was working three days later or so in. In a suit in dc.

[A]

I. I hate to ask you this. This question, but then again, it's. You're one of the few people that. That, you know, that can really talk to this. And it's. And it's the reality of the job. And we like to think that the good guys always win, but that's just. That's just not the case. We win a majority of. The majority of things. We go on. We. We win.

[B]

I looked this up the other day just for fun. Yeah. Who's failed more and succeeded at more hostage rescues out of the two units? And you guys got one up on us. And I think two more, two less failed overall, ever. And I think it's like four to three or something like that on success, which.

[A]

Which there's two things I'd love to hear that we're ahead, but two, that it's. That it's really close because that's.

[B]

That.

[A]

That checks out, you know, almost like so close that it's, you know, we need more data.

[B]

Yeah. And this is not an excuse, but you know how it is. It's like you could be the. The super bowl winning team that year, but, like, the tight end made a mistake and got benched or somebody on the team shouldn be there or something. You know, I believe that is true, too. And it comes down to, like, one little mistake that somebody makes. Right.

[A]

Well, you know, or it's very similar to where, of course, everyone cares about that super bowl. But as soon as that super bowl is over. You're no one, no one cares. Like what, what are you capable of now? Yeah, it's short lived.

[B]

There's a team that's won six of those, you know, but not in the last five years. Who better?

[A]

They all care what they're going to do this year.

[B]

That's right. So that's all that matters for sure.

[A]

You know, but, but you, you call it a, a failed, you know, hostage rescue because you guys weren't, weren't able to, to grab, to grab those Americans, you know, I'm sure, I'm sure you were thinking about that the night before. Like bringing these Americans home. It's all. It can probably consumed you guys.

[B]

Absolutely. It consumed in the way after too.

[A]

And that's, that's really what I want to talk about. And, and again it's probably not, it's not a fun thing to talk about, but it's a reality of this job that no one really ever talks about or has that experience. What did that do to the team? And what was that like coming home?

[B]

We were down, we did that debrief. And the last thing I remember, that same master chief, badass master chief saying was, you motherfuckers better get your heads up because that was, that was badass, right? And you know, it's a hostage rescue. One of three things is going to happen, right? You're gonna get them, right. The bad guys are gonna kill them or in very rare cases but has happened, you're gonna fuck up and you accidentally kill them. And that's the worst, worst, right, Right. But that's how high risk that is. And so when people are talking about it, having fun, coconuts, they don't realize like the fine, the fine hair, the fine line between success and failure in any, in any, any of that level of, of a, of a mission, you know, of a mission set.

[A]

I don't think people realize how even

[B]

for law enforcement too, any, right. Anybody that does hostage rescue, they do

[A]

it in video games, they see it in movies.

[B]

So desensitized to that they don't understand

[A]

when you go on a hostage rescue mission, the, the tactics are, they're not for you, they're for the hostage changes.

[B]

Like we're for the hostage. We can take, we can take heavies and still have a successful hostage rescue. Not, that's not like a regular op against some regular dude in the network where if we take heavies that, that still could be a successful mission. It's not, it can't be.

[A]

You know, before A regular mission. I. I don't. Generally speaking, there's. But I don't worry about getting hit. I don't worry about getting killed. You know, I only. You know, it's just not what I worry about. Before a hostage rescue mission, you just know. You know, the chances of someone taking one and is. Is very high.

[B]

Absolutely. And it's just likely to.

[A]

Likely. Yeah, you just hope it's. You just hope it's not lethal, you know?

[B]

Yeah, that.

[A]

Yeah, it's. They just. They come back to work, but someone's getting hit, you know, the chance of someone getting hit is so much higher than any other operation.

[B]

It's a crazy thing to think about. I don't even remember, you know, when we hit our set point with one of our EOD guys up in the point, and I was like, we had done so much together over the years, and we just were, like, kind of looking at each other like, all right, we're calling it in 20 minutes and waiting for the head shed to make their set point. And we're rolling. And he just looked at me, and I was like, dude, it's just like any other mission. Let's go do it, you know? And think of that with him is like, that's the mindset. Is like, you know what's gonna happen. Kind of give each other that look and go, like, if it's you, I got you. If it's me, you got me. But let's like. But don't worry about me. Unless. Until you get the hostage, it's just a different, different mindset.

[A]

This is the one thing the movies get right to some degree. And it's. It's a. It's a little cliche, but it's so true, and it's so powerful. It just is. Whether it's on a bird, whether it's at lcc, at some point during that mission, you're gonna look at one of your friends and you're just gonna give him a head nod. You're not gonna say anything. You might. You might give them a fist bump at best.

[B]

Yeah. But that's usually nonverbal.

[A]

Or that. Or that little, like, head nod says everything. It says, I got you. When they give the head nod back, it's like, and. And I got you. And it just. It gives you all the confidence in the world that you're with the best guys on earth to do what we're about to do.

[B]

Now that what you just said, foreshadowing to something later, you may or may not ask me, is the way That I decided to answer if you do is like more related to that. What you just said is like, that's the most important thing of all this shit is that look, the infinite understanding between each other non verbal in that moment where you just look at each other like we are right now where it's like you get it and I get it and it's, it is what it is and we're. Doesn't matter if I, if we hate each other back home. I'm like, God, I wish that guy would leave my team because he's the most annoying dude ever. You know.

[A]

But people say all the time. It was apparent on the Alex west episode the Parent on this because you didn't think you were the best. You don't think you're the worst. But most tier one guys are very humble guys. They're very humble guys, most of them. Now get me wrong, it's easier to be humble when you're retired. They may have been a little cockier like while they were on the team, but they still would have, they, they still wouldn't have been jerks about anything.

[B]

You know, it's so hard to balance at that level. Your, your own ego. Your ego. Because it's a collective ego at that level.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And it's an individual ego. And the balance is very difficult. And it's true what you're saying. But there was a time where you said, like, when did you realize it? Like, man, I'm good enough. There was a time, but I wouldn't have said in front of me and my other team, 10 guys. I was like, man, I just, I'm ready to go another level. Right there was, you know.

[A]

But let me tell you, just the

[B]

way you say it.

[A]

You know, walk into that bird and giving head nods, confidence through the roof.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That like I, I am capable of doing this job and I'm going to prove it to you. You're gonna do it to me. Us as a team are the best in the world at what we like. There's no real time for extreme humility right there.

[B]

No, you have to have that I for it to work.

[A]

I think you, you do like you, you do. You have to have that to work. And, and if you're doing hostage rescue, I don't want anyone else stacking up against that door than dudes who think they're the best in the world and what they do. And you're lucky I'm here tonight because we are exactly who you want tonight because we're capable of this.

[B]

And you have to have that audacity in those. In those moments, I think that ego is necessary. It's all the other 99.9% of the time outside of that, in that life and afterwards. Now we're talking. And mental health and the things that. That doesn't exist in that moment, you

[A]

know, And I love that. That you talk about. You know that. Because it's. It's all about the ability to change gears and people who are humble too much the whole time, they'll never be able to perform because they're too humble, and guys that are jerks because they have too much ego and pride and that's all. The only speed they have. They'll never make it anywhere either. No one wants to work with them. The ability to change gears and say, all right, now's time to turn it on. Now. Now's time to. To turn it off. That's.

[B]

It's a.

[A]

It's a unique ability to. And somehow they select for it really.

[B]

Well, yeah, they select for it, really.

[A]

Whether it's intentional or that's just the. The package that just happens to come with what they're looking for. Yeah, I don't. I don't know. I don't know how you train a guy to do that. I don't think he can. I think it's an innate ability.

[B]

I think there's a. Some kind of an art to it. And that's what they've been trying to study is how it all. All puzzles together. But like you said, if you're too humble, it's like there's an insecurity that makes you that humble, just as like, there's an insecurity that makes you way overly arrogant that just is inauthentic. And then the. In between that are the guys that operate at this level to go. It's. It's real confidence, like, authentic confidence in what they do.

[A]

Well, you talked about it. Let's get into it. Did you. You served with. With Rob o' Neill when he was. When he got pushed over to Silver Squadron, correct?

[B]

Yes, very temporarily. After that whole sort of kind of return from that OP and the. The little bit of dysfunction that seemed to be going on in there, and we needed a team leader. He came over temporarily and. And I was newer then, and honestly, I didn't. You're so busy. I didn't think much into it that much, but. Yeah, but I met. I met him and met him in. Got to work with him a little bit.

[A]

It's. It's. Regardless of. Of what was. What was going on. Like I would, I would ask you this, this the same question it did. Of course, being on that op is a pretty big deal, right? I mean it's, it's, it's arguably one of the greatest high value, you know, target raids in American special operation history. Because of the level, not because of how hard the target was. I don't care about that. It was, it was.

[B]

But the gravit, the gravity, gravity of it.

[A]

I mean, and it was still a cross border raid. You know, there's still things that could have gone wrong, you know, and they didn't. And that goes to the level of expertise to everyone, the level of planning. And not everything went according to plan. They shift, they shifted off of that.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And they carried it out to perfection.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, no one people ask me like, do you think the Delta Force would have done that better, done it better? What's what, what was there to improve on?

[B]

I think they may or may not have like we said, depending on the specific team, the, the situation within the team, the players, they executed it perfectly.

[A]

Really. Like put it one, they all, all bad guys gone, all good guys come home.

[B]

Right. We only ever asked that question if it didn't work out.

[A]

Right. So that being said, did, did he ever come on the team, you know, and, and, and talk about the raid and, and tell, and tell you guys like, hey, I, I'm the one who killed bin Laden and just told that story or do you just, just never really get told?

[B]

And for my, I'm only going to speak for myself in this whole answer. Yeah, first of all, and not for anybody else and what I experienced. But like no, we didn't hear debrief about it much. We talked about, of course, you know how it works, locker room talk. We're talking about it amongst ourselves, but that's all speculation unless you go to a brief and you know, Silver Squadron had a really big hostage rescue go wrong when I was a new guy and I sat in on the brief to hear about, I was like, oh my gosh, wow. I didn't realize like one, it was a tactically badass op, like the way that they did this thing. And it's just very unfortunate that it, the way that it ended, different story, but so it was more like. It wasn't like that. There was no, we just were working, you know, and not knowing what was gonna happen next. And then he got out, you know, and then just between work, I started to hear the stories of the two guys that are gonna tell their stories different ways, you know, and I'm friends with Bis now.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And he's doing great things, and I believe his version of the story. And I'll reserve my thoughts for when you ask me for that side of the story and what I think. But the way that I've decided to answer that, I think might be a little different. So don't get mad at me or anything.

[A]

But I don't.

[B]

Yeah, but.

[A]

Yeah, I can't get mad at your answer. It's your.

[B]

But to that answer. Like, no, I didn't hear who did it until probably months later when guys were talking about it and going, all right, who killed ubl?

[A]

And, yeah, I'll tell you this. And I'll always be. And, you know, the, the audience can be. I get it. Mad or disappointed. You know, I had Alex west on, and some people just don't want to talk about it. And, and, and I, And I, I get that. I just want to tell you that regardless of. Of what you say, I'm just grateful that you're like, yeah, I mean, you can ask me. I'll. And I'll be respectful, you know, about the way I do that, because no one else will talk to me if I, If I'm not.

[B]

I don't mean to. I don't mind telling my opinion. It's just the way that I. I say it, you know, for sure.

[A]

And that I would. I wouldn't. Wouldn't expect it any. Any less of you.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

What. What is it about Matt Bissonnette's story that. Do you have an opinion on that?

[B]

Yeah, Yeah. I read both of those a long time ago. So it's like, you know, I don't memorize every page of anything.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But I don't read that much. But I believe his. His side of the story is like. It lines up with anything that I've heard. So does Rob's, up until that moment on the third floor.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And the question really is about the three or four guys that made that entrance and the timing of it and all of those little tiny nuances that, you know, we go over, you know, all the time and. But, but also. Especially when it's a successful mission, it's.

[A]

It.

[B]

We talk about a lot less as a team than if it was a failed mission, then you pick it apart, like to death, you know, and you. And you will know. And so I don't want to get ahead of your questions, but there's.

[A]

I have no set line of questions.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I'm just reacting off of, you know, off of what you say.

[B]

Yeah. So, yeah, I like, I enjoyed Biz's book, the Operator book. I think they. They have different tones and reasons why is a tone thing and a personality thing. Right. And like we said earlier is like, I want to answer this not out of judgment for what I think is like, oh, he should or shouldn't say it this way or do it this way. I get this shit all the time where people are like, you should put this in your ice cream instead of that. I'm. Well, there's a lot more to that than you think of.

[A]

You started ice cream business since you know everything about it.

[B]

You can make it however you want to make ice cream, you know. And so whether or not, you know, the Operator is more driven towards his own ego, you know, or not.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I don't. I know that there's layers to that that I don't understand because I don't know him super well, you know, day to day, and I know Bis, but I don't know him super well. Same thing. So I'm going to leave the judgment part of it out of it.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Because I think the general public can already know and feel what they. What they think about that part of it. Mine is more like what I think happened and why these two stories and that finite last details is different.

[A]

Right. But I mean, it is. It's a. It is a small part of the story. It really is because I said, and I said this on my show that, you know, Rob's account, Matt's account, or anyone else that was on that mission that I talked to has the exact same account, generally speaking, maybe from different views, but they all line up all the way through the second floor. So it's not like. It's just like one massive lie we're talking about. Unfortunately, it's the, the smallest one room in this on this Target matters. It's the biggest. It's. It's. It's the.

[B]

The.

[A]

It's the culmination of getting vengeance for September 11th, who shot UBL.

[B]

I think it. I'm gonna use my. This is hard for me to do right now.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

I'm gonna use that hostage rescue where I. The first interview I ever did talking about this was with Dave Hookstead. And I, like, I was super nervous. I needed to get it off my chest. And I started to. This was like, hey, I couldn't figure out how I was going to do it. And then eventually I ended up doing the full thing on the Sean Ryan show when I got. And I liked. I'M glad I did it that way. It was not easy. And it was like a healing, resolving moment for me to just get that off. Right. And not just for people, but for, like, even my sons later on.

[A]

Right.

[B]

This thing that dad did and needed to understand as my two sons, my own two sons grow. So when I told it there, I made a mistake that I didn't understand. Still planning and doing my best. I said, hey, me and another guy killed these five people, including these two younger ones. Now, I didn't realize this, but that guy was really affected by that and was like, I wasn't ready for that. And it really affected him equally as profound as it affected me. And so I called him and apologized because he's a really close buddy of mine. So we resolve that with that. But point being is that now when I tell it, I go, I did that because you do the stories. I think the most respectful way is from your own perspective, unless the guy agrees or someone wants to be in it. So what I think happened with the third floor is you got a one, two or three or four man entry. I'm not well versed in the very details of that story from the book that I. Way back I. My opinion and the truth, I think in general community, is that another guy that was not Rob o' Neill, that we all know is out there, People know his call sign, right as Red is the first guy that took shots, whether it was in the face or in the body, I. I think it was not in the face to put the bad guy down. Now when we go on operations on normal ops and we come home and a couple guys got some kills

[A]

in

[B]

our community, do we ever. Do we ever go, like, if you put somebody down and he wasn't like, quite all the way dead, but needed to be because that's the most ethical way to do it and other reasons too. Somebody else is like, oh, shit. And like, you know, puts them away, finishes them off, whatever you want to call it. Who gets the credit for that kill, per se? Not that we ever need it. We don't. Honestly, in my experience, we never kept score on each other. It was just like, hey, we generally know that Brent, Brent killed that dude. Right, Right.

[A]

Just so team room banter. I've been back for missions where all four people said, yeah, I shot that dude.

[B]

Yeah, exactly. So when we.

[A]

And they all four did, actually.

[B]

Yeah. But so are we talking about who put holes in them or who do we think killed them? Not knowing at the moment, the exact moment when his spirit left Right, Right. So now, in my situation, the two younger ones, one of them was not all the way dead, but for sure, that was the most ethical thing, was like to stop that suffering. Right. Another teammate finish. Finished that. And that was not easy. And that's another story that I don't even want to talk about because it's not. It's not my place to. That. The story is that I did that. Right. So now take that and go back to what we're talking about, where generally what my opinion is and what I feel is that another guy put shots first, then it's. It's almost instantaneous. Second guy comes in, maybe he's on his way down, maybe he's already down. It's like more shots, third guy, couple more shots if the angle is right. And I don't remember if there was a fourth guy or not, but. And I don't know which one was Rob in what order.

[A]

Right.

[B]

But in my opinion. Now, this is where I'm gonna play devil's advocate. Sure, he did kill ubl, because they all did. They, everybody. They all those three or four guys put shots in him. Him. Now, whether he came in and put one in the face, I don't know. That's like, different. And, you know, they needed to ID him, so that wouldn't have been smart. But I don't know with the first guy, I don't know that stuff. This is just. Now, now, Now, back it. Back it up to your point, which is you're saying he didn't. He didn't kill him. Well, I. Well, I agree that he's not the first guy that shot him and that the credit typically goes to the first guy who shot him, if we're going to be talking about that way. So you are also correct.

[A]

That's not necessarily my point. Okay. My point is, is this. If. If that was the way Rob told the story, I'd have never made a podcast about that. That's about who shot him first, second, third, or fourth. And, you know, and they're. And he's like, I took the final shot. The problem comes in Rob's side of the story changing, where he takes everyone else out of the room and he goes, me and me alone. Put two shots in his head while he was standing up and put a shot in his head while he was down. Nobody else but me took out the world's yes, no, Most deadliest tears when that's just not true. It's a very. I try not to get too. I'll never really want to Be unprofessional about it. I might be blunt, but you know.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I don't get. My feelings get in the way.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But, but as, as a team member, for someone to take credit for something that was truly a team event, like, yes, that I, that I do have a problem with. And then when you couple it with this, the why behind it, did. Did you. Are you covering something else up or did you do it for good reasons or did you do it to sell a book and go on speaking tours for personal gain? And now I have a double problem with that. And that's why.

[B]

So I absolutely agree with you. It has changed. Right. The story. Now what I'm saying is, I agree with what you're saying because in our community it is very, very important, especially if you're going on media and you're telling things that are going to become history, that it's as accurate as it can be. Right. And why, like, I think Tim Kennedy's a good human. But sure, it's separate. It's different from his because his is like just full blown lies. Right, Right. And you made an attempt at accountability. Different story. My. I still think that, like I could still go hang out with that guy. And then he's a, he's doing good things. He's not a bad per human. Right. And his accountability should be better. Whatever. Now for Rob, different story because I think he's telling the truth in different ways. But I also know that that was such a high level of McChrystal and the administration getting credit for it. Obama administration. Like, hey, we did this and now here's the guy. Just like in that one movie about the dude. It was like a Medal of Honor guy. I can't remember the name. It was like Flags of Our Fathers or one of those where they were like, you're getting the Medal of Honor. And he became this celebrity thing that he didn't want to. Right. But he was forced kind of into it. Now, Rob wasn't forced into it. I think that with his personality type was like, yo, yeah, I'll be the guy, you know. Right. And. And because he was there and he did put shots into him and he could, you could say that it's very tough to tell at which exact shots the spirit left the body and he actually died or whatever. Right. But to your point, buy that story

[A]

all day long, I'd buy that story.

[B]

Right. But you, to your point, there was a time where he said I was the only one. And that's why I made that point before. Where I said I was the only one because there's these sensitivities to those layers for guys that are involved that I think people above Rob o' Neill in this story demanded that he do. Right. And I'm not gonna. Maybe he decided on his own to do that. I just. I don't believe that because there were so much, so many politics involved with it. The same with, like, Marcus Luttrell's book. There were so many politics in that were. You know, he had to come back and say, like, okay, look, honestly, they did this and they were going to make this a big thing. And it kind of caught him by surprise, but he kind of went with it, not realizing, hey, the later all the GWA guys are going to be done, and people that know are going to be like, hey, we're not cool with inaccuracies or even lies or anything. So my point being is that I am going to say this from a point where it's like, I am ignorant to the details and nuances of, like, the lawsuit and the things going on. But what I think is that underneath all that, it matters because it's like, tough, dude. I have business and I went through a lawsuit and it was tough. It almost stopped the whole thing if I didn't navigate that correctly. So I don't want to invalidate either of you guys. And your personality types are completely different. It. Right. What I'm saying is this. If we. If he showed up here and tonight, we grabbed those whiskey glasses and we started a fire out there like we used to around the campfire, I bet you guys, he. You. We would drop it and we'd go, hey, I think you're full of. And we'd make fun of each other and he'd be like, you're, you know, an. For. For doing all this. And there's all these layers that we. That you. That. That either of us don't understand, and maybe we'd explain it, maybe we wouldn't, but it would be in a brotherhood circle. So it's like, you know, trustworthy. So I don't want to discredit anything. But my point is that what I hope would happen is that we do.

[A]

Do.

[B]

We could do that and go just. It's. There's more. It's more important what's underneath of that than this thing, how it affects our lives. Because you're absolutely right. Like, full. It's such a high level and history is so important. Accountability and integrity is very, very important to clear. To clear up. And maybe he doesn't have a way. And he's doing this sort of. His personality type is this overt.

[A]

Doesn't feel like he has a clear path, you know, to do it without.

[B]

Maybe he's reacting to the pressure to be truthful about it, to go, who actually killed him? And I was like, I think that's not the question. It's more like. It's like, who all put shots in him? Which means they're all telling the truth. Like. Like they're both. This and him are both telling the truth. They put shots in him.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And now it's just this.

[A]

But again, Matt puts it as a team.

[B]

Yes. He's chosen to go. It's always team. And Rob's personality is like. What I think is there's some layers to that, that he kind of went with it. This is like what 10 years now is like.

[A]

So my. My bigger issue to some degree is this is when it started. And I hate to say it, it's weird, because I'm like. It's almost like I'm getting offended. Intended for you guys.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But.

[B]

Yeah, it's.

[A]

But when. When. When the. When the truth was coming out. And I feel like he felt a little cornered. But, you know, we talked about Tim Kennedy, too. Like, Tim Kennedy got cornered by the truth, and Tim could have came out and just been honest, and guess what? And Tim would be fine right now, people.

[B]

That's right.

[A]

He'd still get jokes about it every now and again, but people would have welcomed him back and be like, hey, we all make mistakes. You still do good things. You are a good man.

[B]

You're still a.

[A]

Right.

[B]

You're still. You were a badass UFC fighter that. Like, that Yoel Romero fight. I still watched it this day to go. He got robbed in that fight, dude.

[A]

But because he didn't do that, he can't go on a single podcast without the. The comment section just.

[B]

I know.

[A]

Just ripping them apart. And I hate that, to be honest with you, because me, too. It didn't. It didn't have to be that way.

[B]

But if you think about the pressure that was created, it worked. He's not embellishing and lying anymore. It kind of. It stopped. So essentially it worked for now. Now, like, maybe something I hope maintains. If you think about this way, like, if you ever had, like, an addict in your family and you're like, for them. Because you're saying in a way, that's like a brotherhood thing for Rob and for anybody else, because we are brotherhood underneath all of this. Anybody in the Veteran, anybody in combat. And there's layers to that, that if you love them, the way that to get them to heal first is to, like, confront them and get them to confront themselves and admit this, like, I'm a heroin addict or whatever.

[A]

Right.

[B]

That's so hard to do when you're in that. Until they're ready. And you have to find a moment where they're ready. Well, maybe he's getting ready and it's just taking time. I don't know. But the point is, what doesn't work is to go. You will admit it right now and start this path to freedom that we know you can be. This. Right.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And four seconds, people will just get defensive and backed into a corner, like you said, And.

[A]

And that's.

[B]

And then they'll defend themselves to the death if they have to, if they're not ready.

[A]

Right. I. I completely agree with that. And, and proof of that is, you know, when. When he went on Andy Stump's podcast, it was. It was a little bit painful. Not. I really don't take, like, joy in

[B]

that, you know, because we're talking about Tim right now. Again.

[A]

No.

[B]

Or.

[A]

And I believe what he did was. And I've covered this in a live podcast, but rather than coming out and saying, hey, it was. It was the whole team, but I was the last one to put a shot in him, so that's why I think I killed him. I'd take that all day long. But instead, when all these facts are brought to him, now he has to try to outsmart the truth rather than own it. And, And. And this is something that, that the, the few things is kind of what I was saying earlier, that I think I became offended for you guys, because I think very, very highly of you guys.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And when his idea was, all right,

[B]

let's see how it affects an entire community of people. One thing, right?

[A]

And he goes, all right, here's how I'm gonna. Here's how I'm gonna fix this. I'm gonna tell Andy. I'm gonna go on the show and tell Andy that, okay, we lied about what happened during the. During the debrief. And just. And that's. And that's how I'm going to connect these dots. And now you have a whole community that has done a lot of good in this world and is full of. Of. Of men with integrity. And now your story to the world is when we're. We're gonna. We're gonna lie.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

When something goes wrong, we're gonna come out. We're gonna lie about it to cover it up. And I don't. And I, and I was, I just, I didn't like that answer. And because the answer was more, I'm just being, just being honest, you know, right now the answer was again more of like, how can I cover for myself? And I don't think he shouldn't say. I don't think he cared. I don't think he was thinking what the other side of that looks like, you know, and what that. And what that's going to look like to the community.

[B]

Yeah, I agree with you. That doesn't. No matter how much I can say

[A]

it's not a good look. Say, hey, we're going to cover things up, up. No, I want to lie on an aar.

[B]

But if he's also going to go make the story about me, myself and I, not the team, and then he says something that relates to the whole team, then it's counter. It's counter indicating. It's like contradicting. So I'm not going to say like, oh, it's not true because it's not my place to control that. But like, general, it's, you know, it can't be. We can't generalize. But it's such a high profile thing that it just happens naturally. There's nothing you can do about it. But my point is, I think you're both right in what you're doing. Like 100% honest. And some people are gonna hate me out there because they want to see us. They want to see us, you know, they want to see you guys meet up and live stream a fight, you know, and go like, well, just, let's just duke it out and drop the lawsuit thing. I'm saying we should meet up and drink whiskey and go through it and understand that there's layers to both what you're saying and why you're doing it. And there's layers to why he is choosing the directions. He's saying things with this story that I think go. My opinion is that they go above him because from what I understand about the administration, McChrystal's book, and nobody's questioning his shit. You know,

[A]

line it up. Yeah, I will sit down and talk to Rob. I've offered that since the beginning when I gave him my phone number. Yeah, and, and that's not, that's not like a jab on him just so I can say I'll sit down on him. That's just, that's just telling you I've, I've been consistent I would have talked with him then. I. I talked to Tim Kennedy several times during the whole Tim Kennedy debacle. Even though I knew he was lying, I was very cordial with Tim and Tim. Even though I called him out as a liar, Tim was very cordial with me. If to be honest with you, it. No one would have.

[B]

Would have.

[A]

If people would have heard our conversations, they wouldn't have thought we were in the middle of this public. You're a liar. No, I'm not.

[B]

That's good to hear that in public because I don't think I've ever. Because I've never said that. Because of the way that if he responded that way still, you know, a nice guy to this thing that was happening. It says something about him that I'm. That I'm trying to prove here. Right.

[A]

And I would.

[B]

And he's just not ready to just fully say I lied about a bunch of stuff. But maybe he will be soon. You know, I don't know.

[A]

It would. It would be face of me to say like, hey, I'll have this conversation with Tim, but I won't have them with Rob. So of course, of course I'd have them with Rob.

[B]

Yeah, I agree with. I know. And when I say this, this is going to sound. This is going to sound all Alex west right now, which is funny because I love that guy. Is the best way to do it is in a safe space to get somebody to talk out what you're trying to get out of them. For us, the safe space is just like we were on deployment around a campfire with whiskey after ops, bullshitting or like on some hunting trip. That's the safe. That's the fucking safe space. So that's the best way that I can think of. And if I was like a mediator and I was like, I'm not because. But if I. I'm just. I wasn't even. I was newer when all that happened. I didn't have that much experience compared to any. Compared to him at all. So you know there's going to be people or even him that's like, who is this guy? Have the audacity. But my point is like the brotherhood is the most important thing to me. That like it's going away from that because it's aligning with the division that's happening in the public society as well now between us. And it's like every industry of anything anybody does is doing this. But my fight against that is to go just realign it. And so that. Because what I think that there's this public expectation for guys like us to be like these heroes, you know, and not be. It's. I think that it's awesome when it's this fun, friendly rivalry. Like, I don't know if they know, but. But this still happens. But every year we had a golf tournament down with you guys, SEAL Team Six and Delta Force, and we got hammered. And there was fights sometimes, but what were they doing after the fights was like. The UFC were like, they're like, dude, now it's mutual respect because it's over. You just dealt with it, you hug it out, and the rivalry continues. And that's what I want to happen with this, because it's also. Now when it gets into, you know, past the fun back and forth, and it becomes this thing that's affecting both of your guys livelihoods, then it's like, I just feel this urge to go, man, let's do the safe space and bring this back in. Drop it. Drop that. And figure out some way to talk about the fact that there's a bunch of layers on both sides that people just don't understand.

[A]

Why I'm gonna ask you.

[B]

Cause I don't think he's lying. I think that it's just. Just. Well, in the moment where you said he dialed it back and was like, I only did this myself in that room.

[A]

Right.

[B]

I think is so. Is so opposite.

[A]

Okay, that.

[B]

But what is the reason why that happened is what he either can't say or just doesn't want to say or whatever, but it doesn't matter that much too.

[A]

I got a question for you that I think that it's a little bit of an unfair question, but I'm going to ask it on. On behalf of. Of the audience and. And the commenters.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

There's one person that could just come out and absolutely clear this up. Like, why do you think Red doesn't. Doesn't say anything about it?

[B]

Good point.

[A]

Somehow, some way, I mean, he could. He could figure out a way to get it out to someone if he doesn't want to out himself. What. Why do you think Red has stayed quiet during all this? If. If he's the one that. That took the shot, you know, initially killed or. Or. Or hit bin Laden. The story is always about Rob, but it's really always about Robin. Like, everyone, he's. It's crazy. He's the most famous seal that no one knows about.

[B]

Yeah, it's cool.

[A]

It is cool.

[B]

It also brings. It's like. Like, I hate the argument between the silent Professional thing or not. Because by contract, we all were silent professionals. Because you would get fired if you talked about anything when you were that professional. Now you're living your life. You actually are writing. You rode off into the sunset that the general public would like to think all of us go do and then just go live in obscurity. Except it's not Hollywood. We're humans. And so the sunset for us was the ending of that purpose in that career and then not realizing that the sunrise is only going to come up. That's the next purpose.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And you're. You're living. You did that, and so am I. I rode off into my sunset, the sun came up, and now I'm living that. My answer to that is that he could find a way, I think. But he's busy as fuck, still doing something.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Right. And also, aside from that, he never needed the credit at all for any of it, probably for anything that he ever does. Because some of us warriors will be warriors until we can't walk anymore. And he's one of those. Like, I'm not one of those. Like, I can be when I. If I need to. Something, let's say Civil war pops off or something and move my family around or whatever. But, you know.

[A]

Right.

[B]

But like, that's. I'm making ice cream. I'm not like, still actively engaging in adversaries and enemies.

[A]

Right.

[B]

By choice. But some guy's purpose is that. And you know, these, these, these, These conceptions, like Hollywood conceptions of the public opinion being like, that's the most epic way to be is, like, true. But there's been warriors of all different kinds over time that have been brutal warriors till the end, you know, gentle warriors till the end. Or not warriors at all. Just warriors in a garden till the end. In different ways. Like so many different ways. My, My point for him is that he doesn't need to. And he's probably fucking pissed that he's. This thing is gonna. Is like potentially wrapping these guys back in. There's only two guys that wanted it. That part of their purpose is storytelling, and that's okay.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And other guys don't have any interest in storytelling at all. And that's okay. That. That's why. And I do think there is a way that he could be like, you know, I'm just the first guy that shot him. I don't give a fuck when, at what moment he. His spirit left doesn't. That's what I think.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I think that Rob, through the way that we all Perceive his personality and ego is also, you know, he's gonna defend this. Right. But I don't think that he intends to like get those guys all have to get like under oath and go.

[A]

I don't.

[B]

Just through with this.

[A]

I don't think so. I agree with you. I don't, I don't think so either. But again, I think, you know, some of the decisions he makes, I don't think he, it's just my opinion. I think they're, I think they're like personal protection, like could be like choices that he makes and he doesn't always look at the holistic part of this.

[B]

Personal protection happens if people are not ready to go because change, change something

[A]

because it's going to have effects and you know, people are going that, that want no part of this, are going to get called in on this.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

And that, you know, that, that was, that was Rob's doing, you know, with the lawsuit. The lawsuit is going to force people who've wanted to want nothing to do with this to now become a part of it. Not.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And that is, that's, that's. I hate that. I, I really do.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. That's just, it's difficult. But I think that, like I said, that's why earlier I was trying to go. It's simple underneath all that, the brotherhood is the most important thing. And if you just figure out a way to go, hey, even it doesn't need to be like public. We had the safe space of the whiskey around the fire and we just went, hey, here's the, here's the full blown truth of everything that won't leave this little space. And you say, well, here's the truth of why I think it's important to get that right in some way. And we figured out from there that I think that will be an epic public story.

[A]

You line it up and I'll be there. And you know that speaking of riding into the sunset, you rode into the sunset a different way. And that is. You probably decided the veteran coffee community space was full.

[B]

It's funny because I'm doing coffee too, but like.

[A]

Oh, you're really. That's funny.

[B]

We're doing like a private label table. Start going online. But like I'm trying to. It's, it's, it's centered around the ice cream. And then we just have. Because the space that I had right was big and I was like, I gotta do something a little more here. And it was bakery, coffee, coffee house and ice cream. So yeah, it's just, we're dabbling in the coffee. But the comp that we're really. We're not. We're only going to be competing in ice cream. But yeah, the coffee spaces. You guys are. Everyone's crushing the coffee space. We took it over, right.

[A]

It's such a huge space. There's. There's so. There's so much room in it, you know, and like anything else, I mean, what's the only question is what, you know, what. What makes yours a little bit unique? You know, just carve out whatever makes yours unique and. And. And run with it, I think.

[B]

So what I identified was that there's a lot of brands that I respect. My mindset is I respect everybody's ice cream. But right now what's going on and I'm noticing and maybe I'm just too much into it. In the world of social media is influencers that are rapidly trying to discredit it. Indulgent good ice cream and call it fake ice cream because they're more like health, like, better for you brands that I like them, like, they're just milk, cream, sugar and some sweetener, you know, and no inclusions, you know, and so mine is bold. It's like I like inclusions and chips and textures and things and like, it's naturally going to have more ingredients. We're do. We did the best job that we could starting out, but I know I'm going to have to go to war, per se about this because we also know what's happening now. I'm in the food industry and the. In the. The world of things where private equity owns all the majority of stuff we all buy. So there's an illusion of choice when you go into the grocery store. My way to battle that is to get in with my ice cream. That's crafty. We. We have like, I've got culinary inspiration from all around the world from my travels. You know, we're not starting with any crazy innovative flavors. They are some cool ones. But because it's such a competitive space to. The barrier to entry is so difficult. The hardest two things that go into the CPG consumer package packaged goods industry is that's all grocery stores and stuff is frozen pizza and the indulgent brand. Indulgent in the ice cream aisle. It's the two.

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

But what we. What have we done in our lives is we're. If you're gonna go for it, you go for the hardest way.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So that. That's what I'm doing. It's challenging. We're gonna See how it goes. But we. I've chosen. What's different about mine is that the purpose behind it, the mission behind it, the purpose being that I found a way through all of that combat and conflict and everything in my life in certain moments to realize how much these little moments of joy that I could bring to people with ice cream, just with this one tool. You know, when there's babies at our cafe, we've had multiple times where the customers go, they've. She's never had ice cream before. We're gonna see what happens. And it's. I now go. Can you record the reaction? Because it's always amazing. Yeah, it's like when you're born, you're like, wow, what's this world? And then you get ice. A baby gets ice cream. And they're like, they like. It shocks their face. It's awesome. And I saw that in, you know, orphans, in different places that I visited and stuff like that, like in Africa and stuff. So that's all part of the story and that's what's behind it. And so besides just I thought that there's this huge section of this kind of bland and boring ice cream, private equity owned stuff that is now called frozen dessert if it has less than 10 milk fat.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And when they say fillers and stabilizers. Yes, that. But there's a spectrum for everything. So we use a couple stabilizers that are like the most natural. They're essentially just soluble fiber, no toxicity to it. They're actually good for your gut health. But those are being wrapped into some of the ones that are toxic. And these things are, they're inaccurate. They're like, if it has anything else besides milk, cream and sugar, it's. It's terrible toxic for you. Like. No, it's not true. The Harvard study that they're all talking about where actually ice cream, it penetrates like the, the. There's a thing, the way that the, the milk molecules react with the sugar and water molecules and the proteins that it does a. It has like a. A dopamine effect that's different than just an addiction. Dopamine effect. That's actually good for you. Right. And I'm like, I need to get the science right. Maybe we'll talk about it later. But they're finding that like it's actually a healthy thing for you. Obviously, if it spikes your insulin, it's like you don't want to crush. But the balance of the sugars, the milk, proteins, fat, globules, is such that it, it actually has a Positive effect on you mentally as well.

[A]

Well, I think it does have an addictive effect because I'm a fat kid and I want ice cream every night around 11pm to midnight.

[B]

But it might be a little better for you than you think.

[A]

You know, I've read those studies where they've come out like, actually, ice cream may not be bad for you at all. It might be good for you, but

[B]

there's a little bit of also justifying things that are healthy and addictive things like even coffee. It's like we could crush coffee all day long, start to finish. Not good for you.

[A]

Everything in mind, but there'.

[B]

There's some antioxidants in the coffee or whatever, or even in like, red wine, but that doesn't mean go crush three bottles of wine and go, I'm getting antioxidants right now.

[A]

When you get all nerdy with, with ice cream, there's a reason. There's a reason for this. You, you. You went to college. You went to ice cream. You went to ice cream college, did you not?

[B]

I did. I'm Penn State, you know, seven weeks. I did a semester at Penn State, like a half semester.

[A]

I love that they have that, though. That's. That's awesome.

[B]

I brought myself to wear like, a Penn State shirt. Yeah. Because I, like I said, I didn't get the college experience. I was a skateboard punk kid. But you know how people are about college. You know.

[A]

Well, where can they get the ice cream?

[B]

In my store in Virginia Beach. Be free. Craft ice cream cafe. All made craft in the house. And we only use one stabilizer in there for creaminess effect. And it's guar gum. It's just, it comes from a bean. So.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

If you learn ice cream science, there's different ways, different things you can do that are interesting, that shouldn't be passed up just because of, you know, false claims by some of the stuff I'm seeing. But so you can essentially say, yeah, natural. And I, I created the formulas, you know, but we color. We. Here's what we successfully have done on both ends of the thing of, of the. The seat, the distribution brand and the cafe is no food dyes. We know those are toxic. We color with beet juice or spirulina and things like that are really easy to get. No corn syrup. A lot of those big brands use corn syrup. That's terrible for you. And no seed oils. So those are the three that I think should be prioritized in the industry if we want changes to happen. So that's What I'm gonna get after as I gain any kind of resource or power through this to make any change.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And but you gotta, you gotta start, you gotta make a start point. And the goal is we make a start point to what we claim and we improve by 1% every day the best we can. As opposed to the opposite. Where there's a brand right now that claimed, oh we're like USDA certified organic, A2 dairy, this and that, this and that and they can't scale and so they've had to now make bad choices to change those that and they're gonna lose all their customer base because they started as something that they, they, that they can't follow through on and sustain. So we're going to do it the other way around where we start with a, a good level of, of of health conscious ingredients decisions. But the goal is like it's indulgent. Also the textures are creamy. It's not boring.

[A]

Right. Let's pretend.

[B]

Why would I even eat it at all if it's just bland and boring.

[A]

Right.

[B]

But healthy for you. I can eat a salad.

[A]

Right. You could order online as well. Is that, is that correct or.

[B]

We're getting ready to launch soon. We are getting the logistics squared away with insulated bo. We'll be able to ship a certain amount nationwide with online orders. Yes. Awesome. And then the brand, we're in the middle of that right now where we'll start announcing stores that we have opportunities to get on shelves with starting like this summer. And hopefully that works out and 2027 is the bigger year for that.

[A]

So you, you got the shipping nailed down because when, when I got those pints from you.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

They, they'd been on my front porch for hours. Yeah. And they were. Or there was cold as if they were still in the freezer.

[B]

Yeah. So to get to. It's easy to say go get shipping. You have a lot of awesome customers. They're like. Or even people in other out of state. They're like, when are you, when can we get the ice cream? Like it takes a lot of work to get to that. And that was a lot of, a lot of testing to shipments. But I'm glad it got there. I sent, you know, veteran with a sign.

[A]

What is it? Veteran with a sign. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

He, he, I sent him some and, and I was like, hey, I'm testing out a box completely failed and it like show up all melted. So that's what I'm saying is I've had to do that and get embarrassed, right? Andy at Half Face Blade sent him some. First started out of my thing all for Christmas. Like, I want to get like ice cream for everybody. I sent a whole thing, like 600 bucks worth. Showed up like soup in a box. So still owe them a bunch of ice cream.

[A]

Well, thankfully I got it. When you, when you got it nailed down.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. Well, we got a life to do tonight, which these guys would have, would have already seen. But if, if not, then go back and, and, and catch our. Our live episode, which will get uploaded as well. Man, I. Chris, I can't thank you anymore for coming the show, sharing your story and, and again and, and hanging out later on the live. I really appreciate it.

[B]

It was awesome, man. Thank you very much.

[A]

Absolutely.