Seal Team 6, Yale University | James Hatch

Summary

---

Tier1 Podcast: "Seal Team 6, Yale University | James Hatch"

Date: June 1, 2026
Host: Brent Tucker
Guest: James Hatch (Former SEAL Team 6 Operator, Yale Instructor, Founder of Spike’s K9 Fund)

---

Episode Overview

This deeply engaging episode features James Hatch—a former SEAL Team 6 operator, renowned canine handler, and current instructor at Yale University. In conversation with host Brent Tucker, a former Delta Force operator, Hatch shares a multi-faceted journey: from overcoming trauma and adversity in both his youth and military service, to his unique role bridging the world of elite combat and the halls of Ivy League academia. The episode delves into topics of leadership, consequence, veteran mental health, institutional culture, and the enduring need for honest after-action reviews. It also touches on Hatch’s passion project: Spike’s K9 Fund, his enduring love for working dogs, and the critical, often misunderstood, role of tactical canines. The conversation is raw, candid, and filled with memorable moments of reflection, humor, and practical wisdom.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Hatch’s Background: Unique Path to Tier One Units

• Military Origin Story:
  • Hatch’s road to the SEALs included quitting BUD/S training the first time, time in the fleet, and eventual success after facing his own lack of confidence (15:15).
  • His drive stemmed from a turbulent and at times abusive childhood, resulting in a deep-seated desire to prove himself and channel aggression productively (16:45–18:43).
  • “As I got older, I. It made me angry because I was weak and I couldn't do anything for myself. And it made me want to hurt people… not a brawler… but I wanted terminal violence... when I got into combat, finally, it was everything I wanted, man.” — James Hatch [18:04]
• Point on Diversity:
  • The surface-level homogeneity of tier one units masks a diverse range of backgrounds and motivations, many rooted in adversity or feelings of being the “odd one out.” (14:32–16:43)
  • “When you start pulling those layers back, you also find out there is a lot of diversity in backgrounds that get people to this highest level of our military.” — Brent Tucker [14:33]

2. Mental Health, Responsibility, and Cultural Narratives

• Owning Consequence vs. Playing Victim:
  • Both discuss the over-culturalization of labels (“PTSD,” “ADHD”) and their misuse as excuses to avoid personal responsibility (09:20–11:31).
  • “People wear these things like a badge of honor… somehow we’ve turned the 10% we disagree on into: you’re 100% my enemy.” — Brent Tucker [08:31]
• Memorable Anecdote on Perspective:
  • Hatch movingly recounts an experience in a psychiatric hospital where a young woman’s courage after horrific abuse profoundly reframed his own sense of suffering and responsibility (11:31–12:47).

3. Transition to Academia – The Yale Experience

• Why Yale Hired a SEAL:
  • Yale recognized the absence of “true diversity”—not just demographic, but of lived experience and exposure to real-world consequences (06:48–07:13).
  • “What they lacked was guys like us… what they really need is just to be challenged… exposed to consequences.” — James Hatch [06:48, 09:13]
• On Student Engagement:
  • Hatch brings police officers and other “consequence-facing” professionals into the classroom to challenge preconceived notions and humanize people often misrepresented by media (07:13–07:39).
  • “When they meet somebody that’s got a heartbeat, that changes everything.” — James Hatch [07:39]
• Contemporary Campus Culture:
  • Yale undergraduates are intensely driven and competitive—“right out of green team,” but many lack real exposure to life’s hard truths and consequences (08:34).
  • Both discuss generational trauma, the academic echo chamber, and the need for gratitude and perspective among America’s elite youth.

4. Veterans, AARs, and the Ethics of Storytelling

• Lone Survivor/Operation Red Wings:
  • Hatch provides a first-hand account of the Red Wings recovery operation, the trauma, and the problematic post-mission mythos (56:08–69:00).
  • Critiques how leadership failed to conduct a proper after-action review, letting a problematic narrative turn into public canon via the bestseller and movie.
  • “There was never a full-on community after-action report in the Naval Special Warfare community about that mission. What there was was a book written, and there was an opportunity taken at the expense of some good men.” — James Hatch [57:30]
  • Both reflect on the burden carried by survivors like Marcus Luttrell and push back against armchair quarterbacking by people outside the community (77:10).
• The Importance of Honest AARs:
  • Only special operations leaders consistently admit fault and discuss errors openly:
    • “The only people who said that they had made an error were the special operations people. Not one Diplomat. Not one conventional [leader] said that they made errors. Not fucking one.” — James Hatch [116:13]

5. Combat, Chaos, and Tactical Leadership

• The Reality of Combat:
  • The difference between theory and chaos in a gunfight—sometimes highly choreographed, other times completely unpredictable (94:12).
  • “I am a witness to the American spirit… I know I got that dog killed. That was the most brutal part for me. The dogs are not volunteers.” — James Hatch [89:06]
• Dog Handler Stories:
  • Hatch details a harrowing mission (Bo Bergdahl rescue attempt) where he was severely wounded and lost his K9 partner (78:59–89:04).
  • Primal connection with working dogs, their role, and ethical questions about sending dogs versus men into harm’s way (90:08–91:50).

6. Education, Admissions, and the Value of Lived Experience

• How Hatch Got to Yale:
  • After 26 years in the Navy, a series of personal connections and a unique non-traditional admissions route saw Hatch accepted into Yale in his 50s, despite a checkered academic record and no SAT (105:29–111:58).
  • “It's about the life you've lived.” — Jim Levinson, Jackson School of Global Affairs [108:23]
  • His presence at Yale is lauded by students and faculty: “I'm telling you, man, it's… inspiring every day.” — James Hatch [112:59]

7. Post-Service Purpose: Spike’s K9 Fund

• Origins and Impact:
  • Spike’s K9 Fund was launched from Hatch’s twin passions: his connection to working dogs and his recognition of the challenges police departments face (118:26–126:42).
  • Funding medical care, training, and equipment for police/military dogs—growing with hands-on support from unlikely allies such as Anderson Cooper (124:30).
• Frustrations and Lessons:
  • Commentary on under-resourced police K9 programs and the crucial value of canine teams for reducing risk to human officers (126:21–127:28).
  • “Having a dog can make things go right… lowers your risk… yet cities would rather pay out in civil court than fund a dog team.” — Brent Tucker [126:52]

8. Philosophical Closing & Reflections

• On Leadership & Accountability:
  • “Why don't leaders have to [do after-action]? You go out on the target tonight and fucking smoke some lady just because you're pissed off—you're going to jail. ... And sending people to drop fucking JDAM's—where are the consequences?” — James Hatch [116:57]
• On Growth, Purpose, and Moving Forward:
  • “I always had what I needed. I just didn't think that I did… nobody cares [about your doubts]. Everybody’s worried about their own shit.” — James Hatch [129:20]
• Humor and Humanity: Dog Stories:
  • Hatch closes with a hilarious recounting of his dog Spike mistaking a cow for a target while on patrol (129:40–131:26).

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• "[On reading 'Gates of Fire'] ...You almost feel like you’re the odd one out, like there’s something wrong with you. And then you read that book from a warrior culture and you’re like – no, no, that’s where I belong." – Brent Tucker [03:38]
• "The more you put people through, the more of a vetting process you put them through, the better quality you get out the other side." – James Hatch [38:34]
• "At the end of the day, when you're dancing with consequences... everybody in a gunfight gets a vote." – James Hatch [89:04]
• "I lay around for a long time, whining and crying and feeling sorry for myself… I kept looking around for places that were like our units… I had to realize I had to create that." – James Hatch [128:29]

---

Timestamps for Important Segments

• 02:20: Introduction of James Hatch and career background
• 06:03–09:13: Mission of universities, exposure to consequences, and true diversity
• 14:03–18:43: Breaking down archetypes in special operations, childhood adversity, and motivation
• 31:05–38:44: Lessons on meritocracy, opportunity, and the reality of military selection
• 56:08–69:00: Red Wings/Lone Survivor operation debrief, aftermath, and community mythmaking
• 78:59–91:50: Bo Bergdahl mission – wounding, K9 loss, the realities of gunfights
• 105:16–112:59: From special ops to the Ivy League – Hatch’s Yale acceptance and academic impact
• 118:26–126:42: Creating Spike’s K9 Fund and the realities of K9 teams in law enforcement
• 129:40–131:26: Lighthearted closing: "funny dog story" with Spike on patrol

---

Tone & Language

The tone is raw, direct, and authentic—reflective of warriors speaking plainly about hard truths, personal failings, and the best and worst moments of their lives. Humor and vivid storytelling are woven throughout, offsetting somber reflections with candid laughter.

---

Summary

This episode is a must-listen for anyone seeking to understand the lived experience of America’s elite warriors—both the internal battles and the continuous journey to serve, adapt, and build community in new arenas. Through the wisdom, humility, and humor of James Hatch, listeners are prompted to think deeply about consequence, service, gratitude, accountability, and the need for honest dialogue in every sector—from the battlefield to the classroom.

Transcript

[James Hatch]

Ready to soundtrack your summer with Red Bull Summer All Day Play. You choose a playlist that fits your summer vibe the best. Are you a festival fanatic, a deep end dj, a road dog, or a trail mixer? Just add a song to your chosen playlist and put your summer on track. Red Bull Summer All Day Play. Red Bull gives you wings. Visit Red Bull.com BrightSummerAhead to learn more. See you this summer.

[Brent Tucker]

Welcome back to another episode of the Tier One podcast. I'm your host, Brent Tucker, owner of FRCC. Go to FRCC Shop and use promo code Tier One to get 15 off the world's best coffee, cigars and bourbon.

[James Hatch]

And I'm Drew Tucker. I am the shirt folding inspector at FRCC Shop. That's first responder, coffee, cigar and cast company. I invite you to join the Patreon here at the Tier one Podcast. It's brought to you by Cobalt Kinetics. You get behind the scenes content. There's a fitness forum, there's a weapons forum, and in that weapons forum, there is a Cobalt Kinetics gun expert to give you great advice. It's a great community. So join the Patreon.

[Brent Tucker]

And as always, this episode is brought to you by Human Performance TRT. Go to hp-trt.com for all your testosterone and peptide needs. Don't wait any longer. Get your blood work done. It's overseen by a doctor. It's done the right way. Make this year the year you get back in the best shape of your life. I'm doing it right now. All right, Drew, let's do it. For the Special Forces res. Welcome to the Tier one podcast. This is amazing.

[James Hatch]

Dude, check this out.

[Brent Tucker]

And with us today we have James Hatch, former SEAL Team 6 operator, assaulter, canine handler. You did boats. You're on the naval parachute team. You've. You've had quite, quite a career. And you're also an instructor at Yale University.

[James Hatch]

Yeah, man.

[Brent Tucker]

Welcome to the show.

[James Hatch]

Thank you for having me. It's an honor. And I'm really grateful for the opportunity. Man, it's good to be here. I brought a book. Oh, man, I love, you know, how to read. I didn't know about army guys.

[Brent Tucker]

You know, I read slow, but I get it done. But I get it done. I. I love this. I can't believe I haven't read this yet, to be honest with you. So it's really cool that.

[James Hatch]

Well, you know, if I might. You know, you do read it. You talk about things with people who've been in the consequences and what I found when I went to Yale was that I found myself in those places, and you're doing that here. And so maybe the combination will be something.

[Brent Tucker]

I'll tell you why it's funny that why I say I can't believe I haven't read that book yet because one of the most influential books I ever read was Gates of Fire.

[James Hatch]

You up right?

[Brent Tucker]

Oh, it'll. If.

[James Hatch]

Yeah.

[Brent Tucker]

For someone with, know, a warrior heart, warrior ethos, especially in today's society, someone with. With that type of mindset, you almost feel like you're the odd one out, like. Like there's something wrong with you. And then you. And then you read that book from a warrior culture in a war society, and you're like, no, no, that's where I belong. That's where I belong. And guess what? Those. That. That culture may get smaller, but it'll never leave. There will always be. There has to be young men that. That are willing and want to.

[James Hatch]

Yeah.

[Brent Tucker]

Do that type of work because it's necessary. We have to.

[James Hatch]

Yeah. You know, 2500 years ago, they wrote that. I love it. Here we are. And I promise you, when you read it, you'll see yourself.

[Brent Tucker]

I can't wait to get into that. Then I will give you something back.

[James Hatch]

Nice.

[Brent Tucker]

This is from Brotherhood Blades.

[James Hatch]

Oh, yeah.

[Brent Tucker]

Give you a gift.

[James Hatch]

Oh, my God.

[Brent Tucker]

It's. Yeah. It's got the Tier 1 podcast logo engraved on there to commemorate your time.

[James Hatch]

Stout piece of kit. Man, look at that.

[Brent Tucker]

And last but not least, some creatine gummies from Tasty Gains.

[James Hatch]

I could probably stand to eat this whole bag right now. Thank you. Yeah, thank you.

[Brent Tucker]

I love what they've. They've recently come out with. With the. The mental health benefits of, you know, a focus and things like that with creatine, as well as.

[James Hatch]

I could use some of the physical,

[Brent Tucker]

so want to give that to you. I mean.

[James Hatch]

Thank you.

[Brent Tucker]

Ab. Ab.

[James Hatch]

This might help me out with those damn kids in the class. It's hard staying up. Yeah.

[Brent Tucker]

You know, I can't wait to get into that because I think that's so unique and I love that you're doing that. That I don't want to say that you are. Are molding young minds, because when you say it like that, it almost seems like someone has, you know, a. An intention that they want to bring people a certain way. And I don't think young minds should be. Should be molded. Although I could. I could argue that as well. But I think what. What they really need is just to be challenged. I don't think they're Getting truly challenged. They're getting challenged by. By a side or. Or people who want to influence them rather than just challenging them and say, hey, these are the facts on both sides. Let's talk it out with logic and reason.

[James Hatch]

I actually think. Well, I think you're right, but I think what's interesting about that is that what they don't get exposed to are the consequences. Right. In fact, most of what's talked about, it seems like, to me, is out in the future in the ether somewhere. And there seems to me a confusing part in the university right now. Is it to actually solve. Is it a job factory? Right. Or is it to solve problems that we have? And I'm personally, I'm on the. To solve problems that we have. So what can my knuckle dragger ass bring to Yale? Right. Well, I got to go there and be a student, so I see how they do business, and the way they do business is the right way.

[Brent Tucker]

Love that.

[James Hatch]

What they lacked was guys like us.

[Brent Tucker]

Yeah.

[James Hatch]

Now, they did have guys, and they do consistently have guys there that are. They don't talk to. You know, they're there studying, getting a graduate degree, but they're not exposed to the students like I am.

[Brent Tucker]

Right. I was going to say what they lack is. It's true diversity.

[James Hatch]

It's so funny you say that when.

[Brent Tucker]

Not against diversity.

[James Hatch]

Right.

[Brent Tucker]

We're just not actually doing diversity.

[James Hatch]

Well, we pay at lip service. So, for example, my. The second class this last semester, I had a police officer come who'd been involved in an act of force, and he brought his dog, actually. Yeah. And the department gave us the video and we ran the whole. The class and the kids were like, holy shit. Are all cops like you? You seem really nice. And he's like, yeah, pretty much. We're just regular people.

[Brent Tucker]

Right.

[James Hatch]

But they've never met cops. And then at the end, they all wanted to shake hands and, you know.

[Brent Tucker]

Yeah.

[James Hatch]

When they meet somebody that's got a heartbeat and a. That changes everything. We can talk about theory, but when you look somebody in the eye and this was right after that woman was shot in Wisconsin. Right.

[Brent Tucker]

I. I've said that on this podcast and, and on the live all the time. And we talk about politics, of course. It's. It's. It's part of the.

[James Hatch]

Politics is everything.

[Brent Tucker]

It's life. You know, to hide from politics is. Is ridiculous.

[James Hatch]

I agree.

[Brent Tucker]

But I've always said this. I really do think that if both sides talked more, they. They'd realize we have more in common than. Than we have apart. You know what. What's that saying, you know, if we agree with 90%. Well, you're 90%, my friend. The 10% we disagree on, somehow we've turned this into 10% we disagree on. You're 100% my enemy.

[James Hatch]

You are my enemy. And we got. Yeah, we can't talk to each other. Yeah.

[Brent Tucker]

What are we doing?

[James Hatch]

You know, it's funny. I think that is something interesting about Yale is I believe that they are in the business of building humans, especially among the undergraduates. These kids, they're not messing around like they are. I tell buddies from my former life, they're, like, right out of green team. They are ready to get after it, and it is no joke. So when you like being involved in that, like, it can't. You know. You know how it is.

[Brent Tucker]

Yeah.

[James Hatch]

You see that kind of fire, that ferocity, It's a beautiful thing. It's different, but I get to help build them by bringing them things that nobody else can.

[Brent Tucker]

Yeah.

[James Hatch]

And that. What goes back to what you're saying. It's. I think it's exposure to the consequences. I think that's the short stick, right?

[Brent Tucker]

This. This whole. This whole country has had a lack of. Of dealing with consequences, and this is unpopular to say. And I. I don't care, because I know it's true. You know, it's. It's not your fault that you drink too much. It's alcoholism. You have a sickness. No, you don't. These are the consequences to your actions. You know, I can't pay attention. Like, I have a focus problem.

[James Hatch]

Really?

[Brent Tucker]

Because jump out of an airplane because, you know, something else you're doing in life shows that you do have focus when you care. You just choose when to focus, when not to focus, and we just. We go down the line. Ptsd. I have ptsd. I can't control it, and all these things. I'm speaking generally.

[James Hatch]

No, I'm with you.

[Brent Tucker]

But, you know, it's not my fault that I'm acting like an a hole to everyone. I have ptsd. No, they've just used these things as a. As a free pass rather than taking responsibility and owning up. And those are the consequences.

[James Hatch]

Dude, I was one of those guys. I spent. We all spent years wallowing and, oh, you know, I'm a monster. All these things. I'm fucked up. I did the. I really. And it was almost like, okay, if I'm like this. People care about me. You know what I mean?

[Brent Tucker]

Yeah.

[James Hatch]

So I agree with you. I think, though, it's an enabled by the culture a little bit. And I think, you know, we can do it to ourselves.

[Brent Tucker]

Not only is enabled, it's. It's encouraged.

[James Hatch]

I agree.

[Brent Tucker]

We wear these things like a badge of honor. People want to have that. Here's again. Here's an unpopular thing that people don't. People want to have ptsd. People are going to look and be like, how dare. Like the most ridiculous thing. I said, yeah. And they'll pick one person out. That's not what I'm talking about. Because they want to have it when I talk, they wear it like a badge of honor. Like, I was. I was. I was in the thick of it, and this is the proof of it, you know, And I don't know why people want to have ADHD so bad, but they. They love telling everyone that. That they have it. So, yeah, now it's. You know, if. If there's not something wrong with you, what's wrong with you?

[James Hatch]

Yeah. I remember I was in a mental hospital, one of a couple I spent some time in, and we were in a group therapy session, and this woman, young woman, she was Hispanic, I remember, sat up straight, her shoulders are back. She was. Tears running down her face, man. And she said her john. And the. The theme of the. This particular group session was, what was the. The event that put you in this hospital? Why did you want to kill yourself? Why did you not want to be around anymore? And she said, christmas eve, I was 11 years old. My uncles raped me in front of my dad. They got drunk. Yeah. And I'm, you know. Right. So thank God there's a counselor in there. This is not unheard of. This is. It is to me. I mean, I've seen some things, but I've never seen that.

[Brent Tucker]

Yeah.

[James Hatch]

So after the whole thing's over, I'm limping back to my little room where I've been feeling sorry for myself, and I'm like, all right, listen. I got shot in the leg doing a job I love with people I consider to be my family.

[Brent Tucker]

Yeah.

[James Hatch]

And I volunteered for all that shit.

[Brent Tucker]

Right.

[James Hatch]

That little girl didn't volunteer for shit. And look at her. That was. She's 11 years old. She's not gonna let that ruin her life. That woman, who I'll never see again, probably doesn't remember me. She showed me courage, and I'm supposed to be tough guy, Seal Team 6 operator, you know, like.

[Brent Tucker]

Yeah. And that's. That. That point you just made is. Is exactly what I'm talking about with. With my point. I said, generally, there are a Lot of real situations out there. And if resources are finite, let's, let's let people with real problems get the majority of the resources.

[James Hatch]

Yeah.

[Brent Tucker]

You know.

[James Hatch]

Yeah.

[Brent Tucker]

I'm not denying that. You know, people don't have problems. They absolutely do.

[James Hatch]

Sure.

[Brent Tucker]

But man, we gotta, we gotta triage this at some point, right?

[James Hatch]

Well, I mean, you know, like we've, you've talked about this at great length and so it's, and it's worth talking about again. You know, I go to the VA and you know, sometimes I'll go there and Kyle go buy me on a scooter. And he, hey man, what, what happened to your leg? I'm like, I got shot in the leg. He's like, oh man, I just broke my ankle on the ship and dude, you can get one of these scooters. I'm like, I'd rather get shot again than ride around on a scooter, you know. But that's like that dude was proud that. You know what I mean?

[Brent Tucker]

I know, it's crazy.

[James Hatch]

Anyway, sorry, don't.

[Brent Tucker]

No, no, you're good. I, I'm, I'm, I'll. We're going to spend so much time talking on the live and, and in the garage smoking cigars after this. I'm looking forward.

[James Hatch]

Can't smoke a cigar because I'll throw up. But I, I'll, you know, I can act like it. I can chew on it.

[Brent Tucker]

Perfect.

[James Hatch]

I can smoke some weed. Yeah.

[Brent Tucker]

The. Let's, let's start at the beginning.

[James Hatch]

Okay.

[Brent Tucker]

And I'm always interested in this because it's, it's funny, we even touched on diversity early on. Everyone at a tier one unit to some degree is, it's almost cookie cutter. Like it's, there's just, again, just, we'll just say the, the quiet part out loud. There's a lot of 6 foot tall white guys working at a. Conservatives working at tier one units. It's, it's cookie cutter.

[James Hatch]

Yep.

[Brent Tucker]

When you start pulling those layers back, you also find out there is a lot of diversity and, and backgrounds that, that get people to this highest level of our military. So what, what, what's in your background?

[James Hatch]

So I think one of the things, you know, because the mental health stuff, we were just speaking about it. I remember one day in SEAL training, the time I made it through, I went once and decided to leave early on voluntary. I had this thing ringing the bell, seizure or something. But the Navy, they sent me out to the fleet, which is a ship and a ship is like jail except you can drown and out there, I had to do work I didn't want to do with people I didn't like. And, yeah, then I went back to SEAL training anyway.

[Brent Tucker]

So crazy that is that you quit SEAL training once and ended up at SEAL Team.

[James Hatch]

You know, it's really funny. I told the story one time at a. And a buddy of mine who's a master chief had been the master chief at buds, and he's like, look, man, you got to know how elite you are. I'm like, what do you mean? He's like, of the people that this is like 10, 15 years ago, if the people that quit and that we let come back, 8% make it, I'm like, oh, that's elite. I wish I'd have just done it the first time because three and a half years of my life. Yeah. You know what the difference was? I had no confidence. I had none. Like, when I left to join the service, you know, there wasn't anybody like, yeah, it was like, you're a. No. That helped me a little bit.

[Brent Tucker]

I'm not surprised by that. I think. I think there is. That there will be different reasons for this motivation, but everyone has something to prove. And so as you look into it, you just find what. What was the. The origin of that something to prove?

[James Hatch]

Yeah, it's whether sad, whether it be to.

[Brent Tucker]

It being bullied, being. Being smaller, whether, you know, being a little bit slow. We've had guys on the show before, they're like, man, I was. I was borderline stupid. And in school, like, school was so hard for me. He's one of the smart. And you'd never know, but they took that challenge at some point and said, you know, I'm going to prove myself would with.

[James Hatch]

With like the island of Misfit Toys, you know what I mean? Like, really would.

[Brent Tucker]

What do you think it was for you?

[James Hatch]

For me, it was the stuff when I was a kid. And I didn't realize that until not probably four or five years ago, when I started doing the plant medicine and that kind of stuff.

[Brent Tucker]

Okay.

[James Hatch]

Because what came to me, the things I did in combat, which. Where I thought, you know, I made some mistakes and innocent people got hurt. I made mistakes and put my buddies in bad situations. I felt guilty about getting shot, losing the dogs, the helicopters, people having to expose themselves to fire to help me out. You know, I had all those things, but when it really came down to it, it was that when I was a kid, I was bouncing around a little bit. I ended up with a family, and they were good People. But they had. And the woman in particular had been through some really brutal shit. And I didn't know that, but my first memories were her. She had me by the shoulders, and I was looking up at her, and she was fucking pounding me into the floor. And she was screaming, she was crying, and I couldn't remember. I just didn't understand, you know? And there were other times that she was really brutal and the police would get involved, and I was really scared of her, man. Like, she was. She was pretty frightening. And as I got older, I. It made me angry because I was weak and I couldn't do anything for myself. And it made me want to hurt people.

[Brent Tucker]

Yeah.

[James Hatch]

And I mean, really. And not. Like, I wasn't a brawler, like, I didn't do. But I. I wanted terminal violence. I want the kind that ends in somebody doesn't go home. Right. Like, that's what I was aching for. And I didn't realize that until just a few years ago. Like, I really. And when I got into combat, finally, it was everything I wanted, man.

[Brent Tucker]

Yeah.

[James Hatch]

I loved it. And you know what? This year, this is the third class I've taught at Yale. This class, this last semester, was the first time I admitted to the kids how much I loved it because I was scared to do that.

[Brent Tucker]

Yeah.

[James Hatch]

And then none of them ran out of class.

[Brent Tucker]

This is. This is what I hope people hear and realize. And, you know, I've said it before, it's not. It's not that bad things happen to you. It's what are you going to do about it? And if you really break it down and you really look at it and I. Whether you want to believe this or not, I'm here to tell you it's the only way to look at it, because you have two paths. It's either if something bad happens to you, even extremely as a child, at any point, you can choose for that to define you and just be a broken man the rest of your life. We can use that for fuel and motivation to make sure that never happens and you become something. This is. If people with a very soft life are never challenged. What's. What's their. What's their reason to grow?

[James Hatch]

Yeah. I feel bad for that kind of folks.

[Brent Tucker]

I mean, people want it, and people want it.

[James Hatch]

That makes me sad.

[Brent Tucker]

You know, I wish I had money. I wish I had this, which I grew up in a big house.

[James Hatch]

I wish I say all that, too.

[Brent Tucker]

Don't get wrong. What's. What's. What's the joke? Lord, you've Put me through enough. How about my next challenge is, you know, how, how, how, how well can I do with a lot of money?

[James Hatch]

Exactly. Let's see how I do. Just give me a run. Yeah, yeah, no, I feel you. I think too. Another reason, honestly, this is true. And, and I not afraid to say. And I say, I say it the first day of class, I stand up in front of these kids and I'm like, look, man, I love my country. Where else in the world does a fucking guy like me stand up in front of people like you? Yeah, what other country in the world can a kid who got bounced around live in trailer parks, Fucking joined the military the day he turned 17, went to college, started college when he was 52.

[Brent Tucker]

Wow.

[James Hatch]

How the do I end up in this room with you? I love my country and dude, I'm pissed off. I don't particularly care for the president or, you know, I don't consider myself like a left wing guy. But like we, I love my. And we're flawed. But what you said earlier, we gotta fucking talk about it.

[Brent Tucker]

Right, Right.

[James Hatch]

Like, come on now.

[Brent Tucker]

You know, the other thing you touched on is what I think, I think we're lacking is just gratefulness. We have so much to be grateful. It doesn't mean we turn a blind eye to everything that's wrong, but we have somehow, I think, I think just culturally, everything's been so good for so long and we just. The only thing we look at is, is the negatives and something, something that's wrong, something to attach yourself as a cause and purpose when those things should be the minority because we should always strive to be better. We've just lost gratefulness.

[James Hatch]

Yeah, I think, you know, you opened something there. Right. Like, people talk about the press a lot and I know some people in the press, some very famous people in the press, and they do a good fucking job. It's kind of frightening what they have to go through to validate and make sure, verify and all that kind of stuff. And they're like, oh, the press, this, the press provides you a service. They know what you click on, they know what you watch. They know despite whatever you say about how you want positive news and you know that you want blood and death and porn. If you take the data.

[Brent Tucker]

That's right, quote the data.

[James Hatch]

I mean, so as a culture, how do we impact that? I don't know, I'm just a little guy dragging knuckles around Yale. But I think. No, but I believe that it's people in the consequences in the ditch. And I'm not just talking about the military. I'm talking about people in these, like, difficult pro life, you know, these types of arguments. Like the people that have skin in the game, right. They talk about it, right. We have to.

[Brent Tucker]

We have to.

[James Hatch]

Or we can end up like, you know, pick a country we visited. I mean, right, like, right.

[Brent Tucker]

It goes back. And I think that's why it's a little bit easier for us to be grateful. I think a lot of these people that aren't, the only thing they know is, is America. And the only thing they think they know is how good everywhere else does it or has it. And they have no idea. Every time I left this country, I couldn't wait to step foot back on American soil.

[James Hatch]

There's one time I came back from Amsterdam and I landed in Atlanta. And the girl, you know, because you're used to the service in like Europe and you come back and you go, you're hungry, you get off the airplane, you want a burger or something. You walk up and the girl's like. And I'm like, can I order? Sure. You know, that was the only time. Sorry.

[Brent Tucker]

I get that. I get that. It's, it's, it's why, it's why I'm looking to maybe, maybe go somewhere else. Yeah. You don't have to be around that. America's a big place.

[James Hatch]

Exactly. You could, you can get you moving into his zip code up there, has he. That's. That wouldn't be a hard argument.

[Brent Tucker]

You know, it would. Wouldn't. Here at the Tier 1 podcast, we're excited to have Tasty Gains as a sponsor. A company with values that aligns with ours. I take their products every day, three times a day. And if it wasn't a product that I didn't take personally and believe in and a company with integrity, then they wouldn't be sponsors on this show. Creatine helps the body produce more ATP, which is an energy molecule that your entire body runs on. It helps improve your physical and mental performance in all aspects of life. Let's be honest, creatine powder sucks to take every day. With the creatine gummies, you can take them with you anywhere and they taste great. Every batch is third party tested, so you know you're getting exactly what you pay for. Go to tastygains.com and enter the promo code. Tier one. That's T I E R the number one. And get 20% off your order. You talked about in and out of, you know, just a hard childhood, in and out of trailer homes. What Made you join the Navy.

[James Hatch]

So I actually joined army. I, I, I knew I grew up in the 70s, 80s, right. So I was born in the 60s, and I grew up as Vietnam guys, and Green Berets were everything. Yeah. And John Delane was a Green Beret. I was talking to one of the. One of the lacrosse kids. I'm like, damn, Green Berets. They're smart. But, you know, bro, I'm talking all this. Actually, what's funny, talking to these kids. I'm like, every one of these crews is a bad. And you do great getting in any of them, you know?

[Brent Tucker]

Absolutely.

[James Hatch]

So that reminds me. Sorry. I wrote Charlie Beckwith a letter when I was in high school. He was in Texas. I read this book called Delta Force. I read that book, and I said, I want to join the military, but I don't know if I should be a Marine or a Green Beret or what. And he wrote me back, and he said, whatever you decide to do, do it all the way. That's. That was all he really said. And it. And I'll never forget that, man.

[Brent Tucker]

He wrote you back?

[James Hatch]

He did.

[Brent Tucker]

That's awesome. How'd you get his address?

[James Hatch]

I've looked in the. We had this thing, like, in the book. He had, like, his business.

[Brent Tucker]

Okay.

[James Hatch]

And we used to have this thing called an encyclopedia and a phone book, and I could get in there in that phone book, and I could find things. So. And I just want. I just winged it, right. I think I actually probably wrote the letter with a crayon. You know what I mean? But. But, like, yeah, it is cool. Anyway, so I wanted to be a Green Beret. I went to Fort Leonard Wood and went to boot camp. I joined the day I turned 17.

[Brent Tucker]

Okay.

[James Hatch]

And I talk about it in my class. I had never met. I grew up in Utah. The only people of color in Utah were the Utah Jazz. I had never spoken to a person of Asian descent, a black person. I'd never. I couldn't point to Puerto Rico on a map. My drill sergeant was Puerto Rican, and I couldn't understand him. And I had this problem. When I got nervous, I would laugh. And that's the last thing you want to do to a drill sergeant, right? Dude, brutal. I like. You want to talk about cultural awareness, and that's the thing that bothers me, like, sometimes. When I first got to Yale in 2019, George Floyd Covid, that kind of stuff was going on. It was heavy. I felt more, like, racial tension on that university campus than I ever felt in 26 years in the military.

[Brent Tucker]

Yeah.

[James Hatch]

And I tell the kids, I'm like, look, man, I was on the bus with people I had never met that came from places I didn't even know existed. And they were all colors and all I know is we got off the bus and getting screamed at and we're doing push ups together and I'm looking at this dude and he's looking at me like, what are we doing? There's something to be said for that approach.

[Brent Tucker]

Yeah. You know, you know, when all that was, was happening and I get it, I only know what I know. I can only tell you what I've. What I've experienced.

[James Hatch]

Yeah.

[Brent Tucker]

And just for me and my experience, those things were happening, but for me, in my everyday life, I never saw it.

[James Hatch]

Yeah.

[Brent Tucker]

I never saw those tensions, you know, that it doesn't mean they don't exist. And that's not what I'm saying. But I would, you know, I'd talk to my friends and, and no one else was really seeing it. So what, so what I really mean by that is I'm not saying it was all fabricated and didn't exist, but because like you talked about the media can pushes what, what, what they got to pay the bills, what people want to consume. I do believe it ended up kind of amplifying it to make people think that it was a much worse situation than it really was. When everyday Americans get along just fine.

[James Hatch]

I do believe I. And this is something that my, that changed my mind. At Yale, I took a couple of African American literature classes from a redheaded woman from Kentucky who went to Harvard. She was my dean, her name is Sarah, and she kicked me in the jewels on the regular, but she taught African American literature. And when I got in there and I started reading like the first class is African American autobiography and like, I'm a patriotic dude. I'd never read W.E.B. dubois, I'd never read Maya Angelou. I'd never read any of that stuff. And when I got in there again, I didn't sit at a table with these people, but I sat at my table with their. And when Maya Angelou talks about being raped by some, you know, as a child, there's a courage to that. There's something extra in there. And growing up. And I, it's funny because the kids laugh like the black guys that live on the ship with you or whatever, like, what did you. I'm like, we didn't get into cultural issues. You know, we weren't talking about the nuances of the civil rights marches. We probably should have been. Right. Like we probably all could have used a little bit of education, but we were just like day to day knuckle dragger shit. You know, those classes helped me see why and I do believe this now, that generational shit, how that affects like violence and purposely breaking up families and that kind of shit, that has a long term effect.

[Brent Tucker]

Yeah.

[James Hatch]

But again, I agree with you insofar as there's a certain amount of money to be made by keeping people in that anger because we know what people click on we. Right. And so if we can point out somebody who's going to incite that anger and make a lot of people make money off that.

[Brent Tucker]

And it just got, just got proved just last month with the, oh man, I want to say it wrong. The Southern Law Institute where they, it was proven that they were, that they were funding these organizations that they're supposed to hate to ensure that they, that they fueled this dissent. And of course it's the irony of that is racism is so scarce that you have to go around and stir it up. Well, maybe, maybe it's not as, yeah, not as prevalent as you thought it was.

[James Hatch]

I don't think it's scarce. I think there's plenty of it, but of all kinds. And see, we get caught in this, you know.

[Brent Tucker]

Right.

[James Hatch]

I think we're all racist everybody. But I think realizing it and saying, okay, I can see how this might come the kids, you know, cultural this and that. And I talk about in the military knuckle dragger world, I'm like, you know how I learned that you don't call a young black man boy. I called a young black man boy. And he looked me in the face and said if you call me that again, I'm going to fucking break your nose. And I said why? And he goes, because where I come from, that's what the old white guy used to call people that I can. And I'm like, oh right, yeah, there's something to be said for that kind of cultural indoctrination as well. Right? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Brent Tucker]

Anyway, but, but the, you, you don't know what you don't know exactly. But once you do know it, it's now you, you know, it's now. What do you got now exactly the when. Okay, I'm sorry. Keep, keep going with, with the army

[James Hatch]

had, so yeah, so I joined, went to boot camp. I, I, I, it was so cool and all I could think about was being a Green Beret. So. And then I went to jump school right after 1984.

[Brent Tucker]

Okay.

[James Hatch]

I Reagan was president, and I went to Fort Benning and I got in the company, and I was the youngest guy there, so they made me the keeper of the wings. You know, that little pouch with the wings in it? And they made me the guide on bear. And I grew up at, like, 5,500ft. I could run. And the company commander was a Ranger. So to me, he was a deity. Right. Like, I read stories about these guys. He was a captain. He probably never done a damn thing in his life. But to me, that dude was, you know. That's right. And he would run with me and he would pull me out ahead, like, to see. I think he wanted to push himself a little bit, and I could. That was a gazelle. I was 17. I weighed like a buck 30, you know. And towards the end of jump school, he said to me, you know, Hatch, sometimes there's these guys that come through here that are a little different. You're kind of like that. And I said, what? What do you mean? He goes, well, they're Navy. I'm like, the Navy?

[Brent Tucker]

Yeah.

[James Hatch]

He said, well, they're called Navy seals. And I said, I don't know what that is. He said, yeah, well, you gotta look into it. That was it. So I. I went home, and again, we don't have the Internet. We had this thing called encyclopedia, right? So I get in there and there's a picture of a dude standing on the beach with a machine gun. And I'm like, oh, yeah. That was the depth of my choice to switch.

[Brent Tucker]

Okay.

[James Hatch]

That was it.

[Brent Tucker]

Enter service transfer.

[James Hatch]

Yeah. But I was. So what it was is I joined the. The Guard. So it was between my junior and senior year of high school.

[Brent Tucker]

Okay.

[James Hatch]

And so when I got back, I went to the Navy recruiter, and I'll never forget his name. And I got a lot of brain damage, but this dude. I had to have the guy in charge of recruiting west of the Mississippi sign my waiver. I was a bit of a criminal.

[Brent Tucker]

Yeah.

[James Hatch]

And this guy, Cecil Kessler was his name, he did. He wrote everything up and took it. Took a lot. He had to do a lot of work. And then I went in the Navy, and I. It was a very different world. You know, folding your clothes and putting it in a drawer as opposed to walking around with a rucksack on your back.

[Brent Tucker]

You graduated jump school, though, with. With the army, correct?

[James Hatch]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Brent Tucker]

So that's got to make you a little different. I know. It's weird, you know, when. At our level, like, when. When you talk about, like, not saying they don't respect jump school. But you have so many schools.

[James Hatch]

No, it's true.

[Brent Tucker]

At that beginner level, for you to come in with airborne wings already, it's got to separate you.

[James Hatch]

It was so. Yeah. I was so proud of that.

[Brent Tucker]

Yeah.

[James Hatch]

But, yeah, I don't remember. Like, I don't think I had enough wherewithal to figure out that it helped me or hurt me. I don't think it really helped me much because I was kind of cocky, which nobody likes, you know, Especially if you're a new meat.

[Brent Tucker]

Yeah. But you need that to a certain degree like anything else. Everything in moderation. But if you don't have a little bit of cockiness, then you would never believe you're good enough to go be a Navy SEAL or a Green Beret or whatever it is.

[James Hatch]

I'm curious with you and people you know, and I talk to former colleagues. Do you. Did you as a kid, did you like, push it out to where you could get hurt, maybe even really hurt, just to push it?

[Brent Tucker]

No. You know what's funny about that? I was scared to go on roller coasters as a kid.

[James Hatch]

Holy, man. What happened? When did you start the heroin?

[Brent Tucker]

Now, I was adventurous, don't get me wrong. I had, I had. And it helped that I had an older brother.

[James Hatch]

Oh, wow.

[Brent Tucker]

My older brother, you know, he. He would go do things that someone, you know when you're six, a nine year old's gonna go do things that you wouldn't do as a six year old, but you can do it with your brother.

[James Hatch]

Yeah.

[Brent Tucker]

So we drive. We'd ride bikes all, you know, all over the place. We fought constantly. I had that. But as far as, you know, risk taking or like really pushing it, I. I played it on the safe side for a long time. When I turned 16, I got into cars.

[James Hatch]

Yeah. Oh, yeah.

[Brent Tucker]

And then pushing fast cars and speed and that adrenaline started it.

[James Hatch]

Yeah.

[Brent Tucker]

And then 911 happened and I had enough hate in my heart to say, I'll do whatever it takes.

[James Hatch]

Yeah, man, there you go.

[Brent Tucker]

There's. There's your answer. It's a good question. I don't think anyone's ever really asked. Asked me that directly.

[James Hatch]

It's interesting though, at that point, like, and so many of us, I mean, I was obviously in far before 9 11, but from our units, that was, you know, that was the trigger. And I tell the kids in my class, and actually, do you know John Ryan? I bet you've met him. Have you ever been to the 9911 Memorial Museum? He's the Guy who was the cop who handled the cleanup after the buildings came down. He. He handled the whole cleanup, helped redesign what's now ground zero, and he helped build the museum. And he goes to Gitmo, takes victims, families to Gitmo to watch him testify.

[Brent Tucker]

Really?

[James Hatch]

Yeah. I mean, he's. But I take my students down because none of them were born. Think about that.

[Brent Tucker]

I know they weren't born.

[James Hatch]

So I take them down there and I. And I say, look, there's a chunk of a video. Edna Cintron. Edna Cintron. You can get on YouTube and look at it. She was above where the plane impacted, and she's standing there in her work clothes and she's waving, like, trying to get help. And when that plane went through, it, cut all the exits, there was no way everybody above that died. And she's standing there waving, and you can see her. Like, she just went to work. And I told my class, I said, at that point, at that point, me in the direction of who thought that was a good idea, and I will kill every one of them. Right. Like, that was so, you know, that was such a big deal, but I don't think everybody felt that way. Yeah, that's what I was trying to get at. Like.

[Brent Tucker]

Yeah, you're.

[James Hatch]

Like, you're. I might die. I don't give a.

[Brent Tucker]

Right.

[James Hatch]

Like, something's got to get done, you know, and that's why we need really good leaders.

[Brent Tucker]

Absolutely. And the other thing about that is, it's. It's always. Until you're faced with a. A real challenge, you can always have these, you know, espoused values. Oh, well, if that was me, I'd do that. I'd. I'd go tackle that. That active shooter in a school. Would you?

[James Hatch]

Would you now? Yeah, I've.

[Brent Tucker]

I've done a lot. I think I would. I. I don't know.

[James Hatch]

I've been in the business of consequences long enough to know that. And.

[Brent Tucker]

And that's Right. And nobody knows until. Until you're faced with it. And. And I have seen men stand tall that I never thought would.

[James Hatch]

Yeah.

[Brent Tucker]

And I. And I saw some of the larger than life men not go where they're supposed. Where I thought they would go.

[James Hatch]

Yeah. Yeah. It's interesting to see that. I think the number one thing is surrounding yourself with people that are true.

[Brent Tucker]

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Now, of course, the higher you go.

[James Hatch]

Yeah.

[Brent Tucker]

The harder that is, the better the chance is, you know, of. Of someone doing that.

[James Hatch]

And.

[Brent Tucker]

But even then, it's not a hundred percent.

[James Hatch]

Yeah.

[Brent Tucker]

It never is there's always that. That human aspect.

[James Hatch]

I think we did something right, though, by going through those extra vetting processes. Yeah. And I say that about Yale, and I don't. I don't care if people think I'm up. I don't care if they. If they. They think I'm arrogant. I'm not arrogant.

[Brent Tucker]

Right.

[James Hatch]

The more you put people through, the more of a vetting process you put them through, the better quality you get out of the other side. It's just the bottom line. I'm not saying the better quality human overall. I'm saying for that specific thing that you're aiming at.

[Brent Tucker]

Right.

[James Hatch]

Like, you need that, and it's important, and it's really interesting because there's a lot of discussions about meritocracy. Right. And they're really good discussions. But the proving part, there's something to that. Most of the discussions around meritocracy have to do with opportunity. But when we talk about meritocracy, we had the opportunity to go to this kind of training knowing full well we're going to get our nuts kicked in. Right, Right. We had this opportunity and we took it and we got through it. There's merit to that. So sometimes the arguments are about not everybody gets opportunity, which is true. Right.

[Brent Tucker]

What do you mean when you say not everyone gets the opportunity in the military?

[James Hatch]

No, no, no. The military is completely different. See, that's why I think the military and special operations in particular is a really good example right now.

[Brent Tucker]

But

[James Hatch]

if you go to school and you haven't eaten, you're not going to. That takes away some opportunities. Right, Right. So. And I'm. But hold on. I'm not saying why we need to buy breakfast for every kid in America. That's not what I'm saying. I'm trying to point out that there are things that affect people that will not allow them. Or like this.

[Brent Tucker]

Some of the.

[James Hatch]

Some of the kids who come from, like, more rural areas and less wealthy kind of areas, there's a language that comes with academia, just like there is in the military. And. And if you don't speak that language a certain way, you don't know about grants, you don't know about these opportunities. You don't know how to navigate that system. That isn't because you don't want to. It's just you haven't had access to it.

[Brent Tucker]

Yeah.

[James Hatch]

And so those arguments are valid, but they sound redundant.

[Brent Tucker]

Yeah, I agree with what you're saying there.

[James Hatch]

This.

[Brent Tucker]

This mindset that we've put out as. As As a country, which is. I think it's one of the worst things you can tell a young person is follow your dreams, do what you love now. And I will tell you why.

[James Hatch]

Yeah.

[Brent Tucker]

There's nothing wrong with going down that road. Because if that works out, great.

[James Hatch]

Right.

[Brent Tucker]

Great. If that works out. But you. But we also have to live in reality. And not everyone's gonna go on to be in the music industry. Not everyone's gonna go play in the NFL. You know what I mean? Like, at some point, chase it. I would never tell someone to not chase it. But it's. We say it in a way that you. It. It's that or nothing else. When we also have to relive reality and say, hey, at some point, as. I'll just talk about as a man for a second. As a man, what's more important, that is you're going to have to provide for your family, and you're going to have to at least look at the realization of what's going on and say, hey, this may not be what I want to do.

[James Hatch]

Yeah.

[Brent Tucker]

But this may be what I need to do.

[James Hatch]

Yeah. Can you imagine looking at your wife? Honey, I'm gonna go try out for the New York Knicks. Sorry, we're not gonna make rent this month. Right, Right. Yeah. No, I feel you.

[Brent Tucker]

And that's. That's. That's what I mean by that. And. And. And to follow up on that. Which means. That's what I love about the military. I. I do, is that it is the nation's safety net. So let's say you're hungry and you can't.

[James Hatch]

Some people call it the spine.

[Brent Tucker]

And. And you can't be successful in college. There is something for everybody.

[James Hatch]

Exactly.

[Brent Tucker]

In the military, you don't have to

[James Hatch]

go out and kick doors and shoot people.

[Brent Tucker]

Sure don't. The chances are you won't.

[James Hatch]

Odds are very, very high that you will never see that. Right? Yeah.

[Brent Tucker]

Right.

[James Hatch]

No, it's interesting how these things are interesting because of the way that I've had these discussions with kids. So when I pick kids from my class, they have to apply. Right. So I get to pick.

[Brent Tucker]

Okay.

[James Hatch]

And I. I make it male, female, almost equal. And I try to pick, like, ROTC kids or kids that are into the finance bro culture, that are a little more conservative, and then the most progressive kids I can. Because that's the problem. We've talked about this earlier. We don't want to talk to each other. We don't want to be uncomfortable. These kids, you should see how they rock this man, it is awesome. At first it's a little uncomfortable, but I, I talk about, I'm pretty wide open. I don't try to hide anything from them. And I'm like, and look, you're gonna disagree with me, I'm gonna disagree with you. But we're still like, look at how lucky are we to sit in this classroom, blah, blah, blah, we're still Americans.

[Brent Tucker]

At the end of the day, we're on the same boat.

[James Hatch]

And when I hear people talk shit about academia in particular, I went down to Washington D.C. and a guy, a congressman from Georgia helped me out meeting with like a bunch of the other Republican congressmen. And I went down there to tell him, look man, academia is not the enemy of the United States. At least not Yale. I mean, I'm not everywhere but.

[Brent Tucker]

Right.

[James Hatch]

These kids are getting after it, man. And you guys don't like it. Seems like this talk about immigration, which, by the way, I think we should. We need a border. You're not a country without a border. Right, but I also believe there's ways to handle it. I may not agree with the way it's going, but I don't know. I got a better idea. I don't know. I'm not deep enough to do it.

[Brent Tucker]

Right.

[James Hatch]

Right. But. The kids in my class that are first generation Americans are. And it's a good majority. Yale seems to find these kids right. They are. Grateful. They don't. That's what I want.

[Brent Tucker]

Grateful. I said it earlier.

[James Hatch]

They are. I've actually sat in classrooms and just teared up and said, man, aren't. How lucky are we right now? Think about it. Like, I have a young woman in my last class whose family's in Kiev in Ukraine. It's a courage class. I got kids in my courage class writing about her. Yeah, right. Like we're. Oh, she's, we're trying to be college kids. Hahaha. And she's like trying to do that too, but she's also getting bombed. Right. Anyway, I'm rambling. No, I could do that all day.

[Brent Tucker]

The, in fact, I'm a, I'm, I'm a hop around with you. Otherwise I try not to do four four hour podcasts.

[James Hatch]

I'm here and so let's might have to pee.

[Brent Tucker]

But we got, we got, we got a life to do after this. So I want to hit some of the stick onto the track. No, no, let's, let's change it up. Let's, let's, let's hit the high points. If you've ever been to any of my tactical training classes. Then you know how adamant I am about the use of white light and the importance of a quality high powered tactical light. That's why I use cloud defensive tac lights. You can't hit what you can't see and neither can the bad guys. Clearly identify your target and simultaneously overwhelm his vision with hundreds of and even thousands of lumens. Get serious about defending yourself and your family. Go to clouddefensive.com and use promo code tier one to get 30% off your order. That's right, 30%. You won't find a better light than this and you won't find a better deal than this. I want to get back to the. Your time and SEAL team. The teams. Real quick. And you already said, you know, you failed BUDS the first time.

[James Hatch]

Yeah.

[Brent Tucker]

How long before you came back to buds?

[James Hatch]

It was about. It was almost four years. So I did some time out in the fleet. Yeah.

[Brent Tucker]

That. That actually makes sense of why you were more successful the second time.

[James Hatch]

I was pissed off. No, no, you're right. It helped me.

[Brent Tucker]

Yeah. Tell me exactly what. What happened in those three to four years that made your second attempt.

[James Hatch]

I saw the work we were doing on the ship and, you know, it doesn't matter where you're at. I don't care if you're in a tank, if you're a CB building somewhere. You know, if you're on a ship, a submarine, whatever, Any kind of airplane. Like what you're doing is important. Right? It is important. Right. But it. For me, it was so far from the consequences. And that's where I wanted to be. I wanted to. I wanted to see the. We were going to kill.

[Brent Tucker]

Yeah.

[James Hatch]

I wanted to be in the room with them. I didn't want to hear somebody else's story about that. Right. And so that's what. It helped me also. I had a chief that was like a hard dude.

[Brent Tucker]

Yeah.

[James Hatch]

Hard and like no bullshit. And he kind of helped me. He just got me set up. He didn't care about being a seal. He was an old dude from Oregon.

[Brent Tucker]

Yeah.

[James Hatch]

And logger. And he was a hard dude. And he. He really helped me harden up. It was cool. I needed. It was character development, I guess you'd call it.

[Brent Tucker]

How far did you get in the first. In your first.

[James Hatch]

I was in hell week. I was about 10 minutes in hell week.

[Brent Tucker]

Oh, really?

[James Hatch]

Yeah. And I was, you know, ten minutes in hell. Like you haven't even really suffered yet. Right.

[Brent Tucker]

Quit or don't quit on day five.

[James Hatch]

Right. I Got in my head. I'm like, holy. But what happened was, it's really funny. This guy got up, and he was the best athlete in the class. This had done the Iron man, like, and he swam the breaststroke. When he swam the breaststroke, he was coming out of the water to, like, his navel. Like, he was. Yeah, he was just a horse. He's a really great runner. Ten minutes into, he gets up and quits. And I'm like, what? And me and about 10 other idiots, we all run up there and quit. And then, like, an hour later, I'm like, what? What. What did I do?

[Brent Tucker]

Yeah.

[James Hatch]

Didn't matter. Navy's like, you did?

[Brent Tucker]

Yeah, I'd. I've said this before. Quitting is contagious, but so is staying 100. You get.

[James Hatch]

Yeah.

[Brent Tucker]

You get in a good group of selection guys that just won't quit.

[James Hatch]

Yeah, I'd really like the whole selection. I'd really like to go out there and be and see that. I think that would be really cool to see.

[Brent Tucker]

Take me with you.

[James Hatch]

Yeah.

[Brent Tucker]

I'm serious. I would love to go.

[James Hatch]

Yeah, I'm gonna try to. I actually do believe that. I. I'm just gonna say it flat out. I believe that Yale is a tier one unit.

[Brent Tucker]

Yeah.

[James Hatch]

In the academic world, they are a tier one unit. In fact, I joke. I'm like, harvard's more like. Like, the Delta guys. Right. And. And. And Yale's a lot more like the SEAL teams. A little. Little rough around the edges.

[Brent Tucker]

Okay. You know, I'll give you that.

[James Hatch]

And I try to characterize it. Right.

[Brent Tucker]

Yeah.

[James Hatch]

Yeah. I'm going to be honest, too. The Harvard people obviously were the best, and they are the hardest to get into. I did a podcast, because I do that, too. I'm trying to be cool like you with a kid, and I'm like, hey, why'd you come to Yale? He's like, because I couldn't get into Harvard.

[Brent Tucker]

You know, I say it all the time, though. People from Harvard should say they're the best, and people from Yale should say they're the best. And the same aspect when I always try to, you know, make sure that my point gets across, but they're like, who's better? Delta Force to SEAL Team Six. And I tell them real quick, delta Force is the best. You're the best.

[James Hatch]

Yeah.

[Brent Tucker]

But guess what? If you ask a guy from SEAL Team Six, he'll tell you, SEAL Team Six is the best. And should. And he should.

[James Hatch]

Yeah.

[Brent Tucker]

And he would, you know, and we both believe it, but that's what you have to have.

[James Hatch]

What's really cool is when you end up in a house. Like, I ended up doing stuff, combined stuff with. With C Squadron and biop, you know, and you get in the house, you're mixed in. You don't know who's who in the zoo.

[Brent Tucker]

Right.

[James Hatch]

And you just. Like, we had the barrel way, which is a little bit different, but, like, this is the same. You could pull a guy. In fact, I remember one time we were doing one of our legacy things that I won't get into, but it's clearly heavily maritime, and we were always talking about, man, these things are so huge, blah, blah, blah. But then they brought a troop from you guys out, and we're like, well, what the fuck? You know?

[Brent Tucker]

Right, right.

[James Hatch]

It's just fun. Like, this is our. You know.

[Brent Tucker]

Right, right. This is our legacy task.

[James Hatch]

But let me. I got some more shit to vent about that. I show up at Dev Group in 94, and I'm like, oh, this is the show. Like, this is the show. We don't have a chow hall. There's one of the guys who works there. His wife brings, like, a crock pot in and makes, like, a stew and some cornbread and shit. We have. Don't have a chow hall. We don't have a swimming pool. And then I go down, I got your guys, compound, and I'm like, what? They have a swimming pool?

[Brent Tucker]

That is ironic.

[James Hatch]

What the fuck? But part of that was that, you know, we're the Navy. We're just.

[Brent Tucker]

Yeah.

[James Hatch]

0.2% of the U.S. navy. And they're like, who gives a about these yahoos, right? You guys are the. The system at its pinnacle, you know?

[Brent Tucker]

Right. But that worked.

[James Hatch]

That helped us, you know?

[Brent Tucker]

Yeah. When you. What's SEAL Team? Well, on the white side, I graduated

[James Hatch]

from Buds164 in 1990, and I went to SEAL Team 8 that they had just started up, and I did three, you know, meaningless deployments there.

[Brent Tucker]

It's the 90s. So they.

[James Hatch]

Yeah, right.

[Brent Tucker]

So what?

[James Hatch]

I got to go to Senegal. See how the third grade, third group guys worked.

[Brent Tucker]

It was cool, you know, and that's. You know, we've said it before. The. The seals versus Green Berets, you know, Dev Group versus Delta. Those are things. And we play into them because they're fun, you know, it's fun to, you know, to poke on that shit. Right? Yeah. Not just for that, you know.

[James Hatch]

Yeah, it's.

[Brent Tucker]

But it's. I don't think. I don't. Maybe we don't do a good Enough job. I don't think people ever realize we're not. We're not that serious about it. Like, it's. It's just. It's just given. It's just guys giving guys a hard time. When. When we meet somewhere, there's nothing but respect.

[James Hatch]

Exactly.

[Brent Tucker]

Nothing but respect. I've never. When I was a Green Beret and seals came over, I was never like, oh, seals, you know, what are they doing here?

[James Hatch]

Yeah.

[Brent Tucker]

Hey, man. Awesome. I want to see your vehicle. Oh, that's cool. Yeah. Is there anything I can do to help you, you know, while. While you're here? Like, it's just not reality, you know?

[James Hatch]

No, it isn't. And what's really interesting, too, is we, I think oftentimes, civilians in particular, those that are kind of fanboys of the community, parse everything down into this gunfight culture. And there's so much more to it than that. Specifically with the. The Green Beret guys. Right. Like, so on Lone Survivor, after I was at Seal Team 8 for a while, I interviewed and went to Damn Neck in 1994, and I was just. We didn't have sweat guys, boat guys, so they pulled some of us in to do that stuff, and that was what I did. So I was. I learned how to work on. And drive speedboats.

[Brent Tucker]

Okay.

[James Hatch]

And it was beaten like, it was a car wreck every time, but it was awesome.

[Brent Tucker]

I talked to a boat guy. I used to think that was kind of a cool job, like, having a race boat. And he's like, you just get beat up on the water.

[James Hatch]

It's brutal.

[Brent Tucker]

Stop.

[James Hatch]

I've seen guys break their femur. I broke my jaw like it is. Yeah, it's a. It's a brute, man.

[Brent Tucker]

Yeah. They definitely put some realization into that jobs. Like. Yeah, that actually makes sense. Like, why would I think it would be fun?

[James Hatch]

It is. Well, actually, the military ruined.

[Brent Tucker]

Well, it can be fun. That doesn't mean it's not dangerous.

[James Hatch]

Boats in ways that would get me in trouble. Like, I. Those things are amazing, man.

[Brent Tucker]

Yeah. And they are cool. Every time I see one of those things, I beat off and went and look at them.

[James Hatch]

I think back to what, you know, the. The unit stuff. One of the things that I was always bothered about coming at it from the angle that I did was, like, we would do these. We'd go do exercises simultaneous. Different targets, different. Right. And our training guys would set up our scenario, and your training guys would set up your scenario. Because the real. The real theme was we got to look good for the headshed.

[Brent Tucker]

Right?

[James Hatch]

And there's no quality in that. I mean, don't get me wrong, I do believe that the training was set up in order to make us better and to kind of test this. But it wasn't full on. Exactly. If we would said, hey, why don't you have the green guys come over and do the blue guys scenario and vice versa, we would have been better. And I think the reason I came to that was I met a guy on, I think my third deployment to Iraq. There had been a blue on blue. And this guy came in, he was a squadron sergeant major, and he'd been hired to investigate blue on blue things that had gone sideways. And that dude did not give one fuck about who was. Who he was. This has to be right, because the business we're in is serious and all this other stuff needs to go away. That attitude, I think, is in very important.

[Brent Tucker]

It is. It has to be. And I really can't, you know, speak to your side because, you know, we did ruts together and we have guys come strapping on, on deployments and things and always great, always great. But the culture of you guys, I couldn't really speak of. Speak of, but the. That is the culture of the Delta Force. Almost professional to a fault. Yeah, at times. But if you're going to err on one side or the other, that's. That's the side yet you have to be on.

[James Hatch]

I think so. And also the aggressive side, if you're in the kind of work that we do, and I tell the students in my class, man, if you're gonna. If you're gonna mess up, do it being aggressive.

[Brent Tucker]

Right?

[James Hatch]

I won't punish you as hard for being aggressive. And I'm like, I can punish these kids.

[Brent Tucker]

Right, I know, but I get what you're saying, and I say it all. I don't care when people mess up, Pete, you're going to mess up. I care. Why'd you do it? What was your intent? That means way more motivating.

[James Hatch]

Yeah, right.

[Brent Tucker]

That means way more. Two people could do the very same thing.

[James Hatch]

Yeah.

[Brent Tucker]

One person with good intentions, one with selfish intentions.

[James Hatch]

Right.

[Brent Tucker]

And you'll have two very different outcomes. And, and we see that in the house all the time. You could, you can do a tactic. Right? But then now I have to. Why'd you do that tactic?

[James Hatch]

Right.

[Brent Tucker]

And if your why was. Was incorrect, well, you got lucky there. But the next time you see this, you'll do it wrong.

[James Hatch]

And here's why we do it this way.

[Brent Tucker]

Here's why we do it this way.

[James Hatch]

This has been learned by somebody's skull getting. Yeah. Right. And that's a hard place to. To be. Right.

[Brent Tucker]

You talked about you were part of a. A couple large events. One. One being Red Wings. I just gotten into country on Myodia, into Bagram.

[James Hatch]

Oh, hell. Welcome.

[Brent Tucker]

When Red Wings happened. In fact, we were. Do you know where Camp Oulette was? Yeah, my. My ODA was the only. It was an overflow camp for us. So we stayed. What camp? I was on 20th group at the time.

[James Hatch]

Okay. Okay.

[Brent Tucker]

So we stayed in Camp Ouelette waiting to go to our fire base when that happened. And you want to talk about tough? Like, tough to watch all those guys, you know, walk around. So I only say that. And that's. That's from a distance.

[James Hatch]

Yeah.

[Brent Tucker]

You. You actually had to go there.

[James Hatch]

Yeah.

[Brent Tucker]

And help. Help with the recovery operation.

[James Hatch]

Yeah. I. And you know, this. This thing has played large in my life since. And I remember one time. You'll have to bring me back because the brain damage. But I remember one time I was doing a skydiving thing with some veterans groups and there was a kid from the 2nd Ranger Battalion who was also there and. And he said. And he recognized me and he said, hey, Jimmy, man, did you guys like that? Every guy from our crew that was on board on that mission either got wounded or killed. Like that was a bad luck thing for us.

[Brent Tucker]

Yeah.

[James Hatch]

And I started thinking about it and some. We weren't the same. There were less of us. But it affected me till this morning, even I think about that. And you went back to the culture. There was never a full on community after action report in the Naval Special Warfare community about that mission. What there was was a book written and there was an opportunity taken at the expense of some good men.

[Brent Tucker]

Yeah.

[James Hatch]

That I think set the tone for what's followed on

[Brent Tucker]

what I. There's. There's two reasons why I hate that. One, just. I've said it before, if anyone's, you know, follow me, I'll die on. On this hill. But again, what. What's. What's your intent? It's not for clicks and views.

[James Hatch]

Right.

[Brent Tucker]

I. I'm not a very big podcast. If that was my intent, well, then I failed miserably at it. I. I firmly believe that the military is the last bastion of. Of respect in this country. Law enforcement's lost it for. Because of. Because of the actions of a few.

[James Hatch]

The actions of a few and also some people in leadership. I love President Obama, but he made it okay for people to dehumanize another group of people. And that's law enforcement.

[Brent Tucker]

That's.

[James Hatch]

And once that happened, that, you know, and then, yeah, the cops, they don't do themselves any favors, but they're also human beings. Right, right. And then the people who manipulate those things create the baggage. Yeah.

[Brent Tucker]

And don't put them in situations where they have to make decisions that they didn't want to. I've always. I don't want to get sidetracked too much on this, but it's like, when it comes to problem solving, let's say you're a doctor and you have to diagnose properly or else whatever you administer won't have the effect.

[James Hatch]

It's not going to fix what the problem is.

[Brent Tucker]

And one of the biggest problems was compliance. Just.

[James Hatch]

Exactly.

[Brent Tucker]

Everyone's running a pretty good, I would dare say 100% success rate when. When just. When just complying. Like, just don't force these guys into.

[James Hatch]

Right.

[Brent Tucker]

They're not well trained. I hate to say it. They're not well trained. They're not prepared for this. And so you're forcing them into a situation they're not prepared for, and they're human.

[James Hatch]

No, I agree with you. And I also think they're primed up. And I think that's a leadership thing. Right?

[Brent Tucker]

They are primed. Yeah.

[James Hatch]

And conversely, like, I said it in my class, like the kids asked me the first day, it was right after that woman got shot in Wisconsin. I'm like, I think. I mean, my personal opinion is, I think that she shouldn't have been shot. I said, but at the same time, what the fuck is she doing out running around, running into guys who are armed and, like, her friends are. Oh, she's really good at what she does. What the fuck is she doing? What is that? She put herself there.

[Brent Tucker]

Right.

[James Hatch]

She bears some responsibility. I don't think that the guy should have done that, but I wasn't in his shoes. Right. But I think when there's this language that we have now and it's dehumanization.

[Brent Tucker]

Right.

[James Hatch]

That's where we're headed.

[Brent Tucker]

Right. And I'm not saying two wrongs make a right.

[James Hatch]

Right.

[Brent Tucker]

But you're right. I mean, we got to start with. Yeah. What the beginning caused this with.

[James Hatch]

Guns are gonna. They have the capability to kill you and they're human. So, like, maybe it's not right, but here's another part I would like that simple. This might be my Yale stuff, but some people believe that the compliance is. The non compliance is a demonstration of a peaceful way of saying hey, fuck you. But whether or not that's true to you and I doesn't matter because there are people who feel that way.

[Brent Tucker]

Right.

[James Hatch]

What we don't have is the guy from ICE talking to the woman who's running the little gang that's fucking with him and say, hey, look, can we talk about. Because we've had. We've made this line, we are enemies. You hate us, we hate you. No, you're still going. When the sun goes down, it goes down over the United States of America. Right. Like, how do we get people to do that?

[Brent Tucker]

You know, but to come back around this, you know, the. With. With veterans. Right. Or that, you know, or the military is the last bastion of hope and respect. You know, the law enforcement's lost it for. For various reasons. Politicians have lost it. Religion, athletes have. Have lost it. You know, to some degree. They're not always who. Who you should be looking up to, but everyone still looks up for the military and said, hey, those are the guys.

[James Hatch]

In spite of.

[Brent Tucker]

In spite of how fallible we are still. You know, but yeah. Which is why it's even more important even when it comes to Red Wings and that AR is. And a book is that if the truth has to be told. Because if we're not going to tell the. If the military won't tell the truth, not just like. And I'm not talking about our generals who are basically politicians.

[James Hatch]

Yeah.

[Brent Tucker]

If the guys on the ground or the guys that America trust and respect still, if they won't tell the truth, if we don't protect that, we're going to lose that too.

[James Hatch]

Yeah. I think what happened with that was that the leadership. And I'm just going to talk about the SEAL team leadership, and I'm sure it's similar with the army in different ways. Like, I've gone to big things were. I know who really shot Al Baghdad. I'm like, who the. Are you? I don't, you know, like, I know who really shot. Been like, okay, good. Awesome.

[Brent Tucker]

Right?

[James Hatch]

Can I have a hot dog?

[Brent Tucker]

Right.

[James Hatch]

Sorry, I got lost there.

[Brent Tucker]

Oh, you're good. Hamster fell off the wheel. Happens to me sometimes, too.

[James Hatch]

Where were we right before that?

[Brent Tucker]

Just the, the integrity of. Of the.

[James Hatch]

Yeah.

[Brent Tucker]

So I think of the ground.

[James Hatch]

Here's the. This is. And this is actually a really important thing for me and I really want to say this to. Especially to the people who are fans of the community and then get caught up in these kind of moral quagmires and think that they are some type of an authority on how people should conduct themselves. You and I can talk about that. I can say, I have talked horrible shit about Marcus Luttrell, and I've never fucking shaken that guy's hands. I've looked him in the eye before. He didn't know I was there. That was brutal. That whole thing was brutal. They tried to sell that mission to other units and then like, no, right. But put yourself. You're a young man who's been practicing to do this job for your entire adult life, and they say, hey, here you go. Oh, you're going to be. Do it without the proper leadership. You're going to. You know what I'm saying? So. I saw the body bags I carried, by the way. The fucking Rangers went down that ridgeline in that ravine and got all those guys bodies and carried them back up. And those were all seals. And they did it because they're like, hey, man, those are your buddies. And those motherfuckers ended up drinking their IVs. Those are some hard, man. And we got back up, we went and found the ambush site, man. There was a lot of. There were a lot of rounds. Those guys shot a lot of rounds at him. And they were. It was a fishbowl.

[Brent Tucker]

A lot of rounds. On which side? On the enemy side?

[James Hatch]

Yeah. A lot of AK?

[Brent Tucker]

Yeah.

[James Hatch]

A lot of 762x39. A lot, yeah. We didn't. At that point, we didn't find bodies. We ended up going back down. And by the time we got back on the patrol, the rangers had gotten all the bodies up there and they were lined out in bags. There wasn't anything left of the helicopter crews except for bones, you know, because the flames, it was brutal. Alan Mack. We had to blow down. I think the Rangers did it, actually. They blew down some of these trees so they could get the 47 in there. Because we're like 11, 000ft. They get the 47 in there to get those guys bodies out.

[Brent Tucker]

Yeah.

[James Hatch]

And I don't know how he got that helicopter down that elevator shaft, but I stood there and there was a. The interpreter was on the headphones listening to the, you know, the icons that the Taliban use. And he told us after there was a guy screaming, shoot that helicopter down. And the guy would respond, they'll know that I'm here and they'll kill me. And the guy screamed, shoot that helicopter down or I will kill you. He didn't. Thank God.

[Brent Tucker]

Right.

[James Hatch]

Set that thing down. We put the bodies on there. And I know who I was carrying too, because he was A big motherfucker, Eric Christensen. He was very good friends with my commanding officer. They grew up together, actually. And I remember also one of my buddies in my team, actually, his wife was having something with the pregnancy, and they put him on that same helicopter and flew him down out so he could go home. And he was never the same after that. Like, he was never the same, right? Never. The next day. Sorry. We roped in two days after. It was like 36 hours. We couldn't get in there because of the weather. We roped in us and the Rangers and walked about three and a half kilometers along the ridgeline. We got there right as the sun came up. Then they went and got the bodies. We went and found the ambush site, but we really didn't know much. So we started a patrol, and the head shed decided to send us down into the town. And there were some ODA guys from third group walked. They walked up from Abad, like, seven of them. Like, it was. Yeah, yeah. I'm like, God damn, fellas. They got shot at while they were coming up, you know, like it was. And then I watched them work. So I'd heard all this, right? And I went to language school, actually, at Fort Bragg with some guys that had just gotten out of, you know, the selection part of it. And they were in their language portion, right? At any rate, we were walk. You know, I was a saw gunner at the time. So there's. When the ODA guys got up there, they wanted to go down and do their. They had this cool little fucking routine. It was like a little system that they had, right? Like. So anyway, I walked down to the. One of the head guys in the village with him and the captain and the medic. They had this little system. Like, the medic could see, oh, who's sick? Who needs. And he could do the bandages and he'd hand out, you know, aspirin, and he'd create a rapport, actually, really with them. And the captain and the interpreter would. Would stand there and be talking to the head guy and who in the family is sick? And, you know, and then they'd start telling us, and they're like, yeah, they came down and this is where they, you know, like, they talked about the whole thing. That was really cool to see. The Marines walked up a couple days later. They pulled us out after about six days. But there was a. When they found. When we got word that they were sending in the helicopters, that there was a survivor. I was standing. The rangers were on one side of the mountain, and they. Of Course, those guys can run. They're pretty good in rucksacks, you know. They beat us to the site, and we stopped and just kind of held ground. And I was standing next to the CCT guy when the 60s came in to get him. And I looked at him, I said, that guy's gonna write a book and make a million dollars. I didn't know they're gonna do a movie and make a couple hundred, whatever,

[Brent Tucker]

but you called it.

[James Hatch]

But right after that, we. We got pulled out. A couple days after that, the Marines and some other folks, other SEAL team guys were finding some of the bodies up there. But while we were up there patrolling, we saw the kid with the gun belt. We saw the goat herder. They turned white when they saw us. They'd obviously met some people before. We didn't know that at the time. We were like. We weren't very far from the border. You're not flying a who concert the size of a school bus. Three of them up that valley and sneaking into anywhere. I know, like, there were all these things, right? And then because of the tragedy, and this is where I'm gonna go back to the stuff I want us. And I need to say this in public because I was angry about that whole thing, and he was the. The one part of it that was alive. I talked to a very close friend of mine who is a very senior leader who knew Marcus really well, and he said, look, Jimmy, he just wanted those guys to be remembered as heroes. And I'm like, I got it. I couldn't really get past it because of the way I. Then I get my shit, I get shot up. And I was being aggressive the night I got wounded, very aggressive. And because of that, I had exposed myself, got the dog killed. These are things in my head. My buddies had to be exposed. The guys had to come back and get me. So now I'm living with similar things that I had condemned him for. He was too aggressive. He. He was a young guy in the SEAL teams that wanted to kick somebody's ass, Right? That's why we need strong leaders. Right? So the right window treatments change everything. Your sleep, your privacy, the way every room looks and feels. @blinds.com We've spent 30 years making it surprisingly simple to get exactly, exactly what your home needs. We've covered over 25 million windows and have 50,000 five star reviews to prove we deliver. Whether you DIY it or want a pro to handle everything from measure to install, we have you covered. Real design professionals, free samples, zero pressure. Right now. Get up to 45% off with minimum purchase, plus get a free professional [e-mail]. rules and restrictions apply. Then what happened is I'd be. We'd go on another deployment. My next deployment was to Iraq. And we'd get these augments, these guys from the teams that had worked, you know, that were from Seal Team 10 or from, you know, and they'd heard all these things and they didn't know any of us were actually there. So they'd sit down, they start telling us the story. And by the time I had heard that story for the second time, about like, it got turned into something that was beyond ridiculous. I got so angry. And the only place for that to go was to him, because he's the only guy alive. Through it all. The night I got wounded. We haven't got there yet, but the night I got wounded, I told everyone that we were on a rescue mission for Bo Bergdahl. And in my mind we were. Especially after I got hurt. And I couldn't figure out what the disconnect was when I did the court martial. Because the judge, the colonel.

[Brent Tucker]

The court martial for Bergdahl. Correct. Okay.

[James Hatch]

Making sure for Bergdahl. He said, why did you go? And I said, because he's got a mom. He goes, no, no, no, but why did you go out on the mission? And it didn't make sense to me. I didn't make the connection. But here's the important part. I had to create a story I could live with. No, I didn't do that. I didn't sit down like, oh, I need to make this. You know, it wasn't a sinister attempt on my part. I was like, here's what happened. We canceled the mission. This group of hardcore, like Ambush Crew dudes in that particular part of the country came up, popped up on the radar. And when they did, they were talking about the things they were doing to an American that had been captured. So in my mind, as I was a team leader, I'm like, we don't have a choice. We canceled the mission because the alum was too good. You know, all the reasons. But I mean, we, at this point, we gotta go. He's got him out, right? Like, we gotta go. And not only that, I argued to go right to the why, okay? And that there were people that came to see me in the hospital later, very senior people that talked about what a stupid decision. I'm like, I was the one who came up, right? Like, but you know how it is, right?

[Brent Tucker]

I do. All too familiar with it.

[James Hatch]

Yeah, yeah. So. I didn't lie in the sense that I was trying to make what I was doing more valuable because we were trying to rescue an American hostage. In my mind, that's why I had, I had to say that's why I did those things, that I'd made, those risks. And I put myself. And this may be a tactical error on my part, and I haven't actually really thought about it at great length, but you know, the difference between combat clearance and hostage rescue, they're very, very different. And in my mind, it was a hostage rescue mission and I really hung it out, right. So maybe that was an error. And maybe I needed to cover that up too, by filling that space in my heart that was full of the dark bullshit that I has that comes with rolling the dice and being a member of the Consequence Cowboys. Right. I had to figure out a way to get through it. And so the evil, the darkness that I could focus all that on was him. And whether I meet him again or not, I cannot imagine after going through what I did, the decisions I made, seeing the dog get killed, getting shot, watching my buddies, the grenades going on, all that shit, I can't be mad at that, dude. I want everything to be right and true and honest. I just can't be mad at that shit, man. I can't imagine watching my friends get killed and run down a fucking mountain.

[Brent Tucker]

Yeah, that is.

[James Hatch]

And you know what? The shows up and he shows up and does talks and he raises money and he gives a shit ton of it to veterans groups. And for that I'm grateful and I'm sorry that I was disrespectful to him.

[Brent Tucker]

You know, I've, when it comes to the Marcus Patrol thing, I always said that I, I wouldn't cover that like the way I've covered Rob or Tim Kennedy because I said, because other people died. And it wasn't something, you know, that, that I wanted to do. Of course. And there are some, some people who said, well, that's not true. Did it. We, we had another Navy Seal, you know, on the show who talked about it. And so it wasn't, I don't edit things out, you know, if people want to talk about it. Who am I to, to, to edit your free speech? I mean, it's, it's my show. If you say something I don't really agree with, of course I, I, I will. But that was his story to tell about what he saw at the time when he was there and what, and what he knows to be the reality of that, and I let him talk about that. So it's, it is a little unfair when people clump my name into exposing Marcus Lutrell because I, I, I, I did not do right. An episode on it in the way that I personally have with others. And I've always said this. Hey, I may not agree with, with the story he told and you can say why he did it. Yeah, I don't agree with it. But I've never taken for granted what, what he went through.

[James Hatch]

Dude, can you imagine carrying that bag, buddy?

[Brent Tucker]

Yeah. And what he has to live with every day. That's never, that's never been lost on me now to. It doesn't, to me. It doesn't justify. It doesn't justify it.

[James Hatch]

No, I feel you.

[Brent Tucker]

But you know, for, for, for people to throw that around and say, you know, and just throw the baby out the bath. The bathwater, so to speak. I, I can't, I can't do that.

[James Hatch]

Listen, I, I think I was hard more hardcore on it than anybody.

[Brent Tucker]

Yeah.

[James Hatch]

And someone who comes from our background. But you armchair quarterback that want to sit and talk about ethics and morals and what you do and what you should have done, just shut the up until you do the dance with the consequences and put yourself in that position. You are a good human being who's interested in what's going on in this culture. And I'm, you know, and I think what we have to offer the country right now is actually a very important thing. But you're not going to do anything by trying to prop yourself up by talking about a guy who went through what I can't imagine, but must have been the most incredibly horrible few days of anybody's life, you know, and how we react to those things, especially if we're a young man and we're surrounded by very senior leaders.

[Brent Tucker]

Yeah. You mentioned it earlier about. Yeah, there was no aar.

[James Hatch]

There was none.

[Brent Tucker]

And that upsets me. And for the same reason TF160 did one. Of course those professionals did.

[James Hatch]

And they call us the customer. Yeah. I love those guys, by the way.

[Brent Tucker]

They're my favorite. They're my favorite.

[James Hatch]

I got a book club going on Thursday night. In fact, we should do it for the live. Okay. And one of the crew chief on the helicopter that medevac me is in that thing.

[Brent Tucker]

Really? Yeah.

[James Hatch]

Makes my heart swell up. He's reading the aeneid with me right now.

[Brent Tucker]

Ah, I love that. You know, you said that you got to speak and meet the guys who medevact you and let's Go over that just if you don't mind.

[James Hatch]

No, no.

[Brent Tucker]

Hey, let's talk about your worst night in combat. Not your worst but personally when it comes to consequences physically it was your worst. You already mentioned it. It was the Bo Berg dollar mission that you believed he was there?

[James Hatch]

I did. In my heart I thought he was because they were the way they were talking about him they clearly had some what you might call intimate contact.

[Brent Tucker]

Okay so you guys, you guys roll out. Just lay out the story for me.

[James Hatch]

So we were, we were going to go out and do something that we'd had on the books for a bit and the weather was just shitty and so in a bad way like meaning the weather was good.

[Brent Tucker]

You know we like Right, good for us.

[James Hatch]

Yeah, exactly. So we kind of shut down and then the boss came in and said hey man, we just got this and he handed it to me and it was conversation with these guys and I was like holy man we gotta. So they started ginning up the intel. We did it in like 30 minutes man. We did a turn around and quit. Got the TF guys you know how they are, you know.

[Brent Tucker]

Right.

[James Hatch]

We had a little discussion about going to the Y or. Or going you know doing the walk a distance and but I was like of the mind that again I'm in my head it's a hostage rescue mission.

[Brent Tucker]

Right.

[James Hatch]

They're going to hear their helicopters and

[Brent Tucker]

and real quick not to interrupt you but just so people understand if to the X is taking it right to the door to the wise generally outside of small arms range. 500.

[James Hatch]

Yeah 400.

[Brent Tucker]

500 meters.

[James Hatch]

Yep.

[Brent Tucker]

And then you know a walk in can be 10 clicks if. If if need be so that's. So that's what he's talking about when saying you heading to the Y.

[James Hatch]

So I won the argument about going to the Y. I. I think there were other people on my side obviously

[Brent Tucker]

and why not the X? Was it. Was it too far in the middle where you couldn't, you couldn't.

[James Hatch]

We would have been the people we were going after what we knew they been a little bit aggressive.

[Brent Tucker]

Right. Would you have had to fast rope in because you. Or do you think could have landed.

[James Hatch]

It was pretty flat. We could have landed. We actually did land 400 meters away.

[Brent Tucker]

Right. But to the X what turned out though the risk to force and the helicopters was just too great.

[James Hatch]

And I'm sure this never happened on any of your deployments but we thought the Y was the Y but the enemy thought it was the ax. So as we're Coming in. I. We're on the helicopter that was on the opposite side of the one that was closest to. All of a sudden, I can see the gunners, like, whoa, I'm sorry. No. Okay. Yeah, shit's real. We got the birds landed, and we're getting ready to haul ass off the back. And the troop chief's like, no, hold, man. And then I saw the tracers going by, and I'm like, oh, shit.

[Brent Tucker]

So it's funny you mentioned that because we. You're right. It's.

[James Hatch]

It's.

[Brent Tucker]

The why is where we think it is. It's based off the building.

[James Hatch]

Yes.

[Brent Tucker]

We only know where the building is.

[James Hatch]

Yeah, we're picking a building.

[Brent Tucker]

We don't know where the people are exactly, but sometimes if the people are on the Y, it might as well be the X.

[James Hatch]

And it turns out when you. When you fly a bus into a place that sounds like a who concert, guess what? They're ready for you.

[Brent Tucker]

Right.

[James Hatch]

Anyway, the. Our guys that got out of the other Hilo, they ended up using grenades. It was funny too, because they're like. As a hostage rescue mission, should be using grenades, you know? Wait a minute. Long story. Last long. They killed a bunch of dudes. We ended up killing like 20 some odd dudes at night.

[Brent Tucker]

Oh, man, that's a good night work.

[James Hatch]

Yeah. But they got me and the dog. I got injured and the dog. Anyways, so we'd come out the back, finally the. The bullets subside because our buddies killed everybody in the building that was shooting. And we started moving and it was insane. There were people running out of these little houses. It was like one in the morning, and it was bright. I mean, it was full moon. There were kids and women, and it was like just. It was chaos. It was like a rodeo.

[Brent Tucker]

Yeah.

[James Hatch]

And people were shooting, and it was just. It was crazy. So I kind of take a second and I'm looking around, I can see which way guys are moving and where we're going. And so I get to a certain spot and I'm like, hey, man, we need to split the team at this point because there's a lot of things going on. The synth of the other team, this. The other infamous SEAL that was on that team, the guy who should have been the team leader, I sent him and his crew. And then I. I took myself one other shooter, the dog guy and his dog. And I wanted to be with them because it was their first, like, real good gunfight. And the dog handler is a guy named Mike Toussaint. He's a public Person, I call him the Texan stud. We start moving and I, I can see some dark in the ditch. I can see these dark shadows. And we've had guys clacking off vests and like that. So I'm like, hey man, we send the dog over there. And he sends the dog over and turns out that it's kids and two little ones like 3 year old and a 4 year old and then like a 12, 13 year old girl. So they're holding security. I grab the two little kids and I take them out in the field, make a hold hands, little boy and little girl and fuck, man, I can't imagine what that night must have been like for those kids, man. You know? So I take him out in the field in the middle and I tell them, sit down. I go back to get the girl. The dog had hit the girl. She was the biggest one.

[Brent Tucker]

Oh, he, he'd latched on.

[James Hatch]

Yeah. So he got off quick, right?

[Brent Tucker]

Okay.

[James Hatch]

I go to get her and I'm like trying to get her to stand up and she is in the fetal position. I mean her night wasn't exactly great. All of a sudden there's helicopters and bombs going off and people screaming. And then a. She runs to hide in the ditch and a dog bites her, right? And then some gringo with green eyes comes over and wants to help her.

[Brent Tucker]

She's like, right. So she, she's, there's no way she can comprehend what's going on.

[James Hatch]

Throw over my shoulder. I go out in the field and I'm telling you this story because on the previous deployment I had made a decision that got three kids killed. And here's these three kids, I put them in the field and I throw down some IR chem lights and I call the gunship. I'm like, hey man, these are kids. Right? Because it was dynamic. Like we were moving and you know that the Taliban don't give a about shooting their own people. They don't care, Right? So.

[Brent Tucker]

Well, you just described. I was thinking about what a difference between us and them. You're not looking to save American kids. You'll hang it out there to save their kids too.

[James Hatch]

That's why I wrote that book. My first deployment to Iraq, I watched the, one of the team leaders who was a left handed shooter go in a building. And I was a dog guy. So I was standing outside initially. That's how we did things. I was outside actually kneeling down, watching him do the entry. I hear boom, boom, boom. I see my buddy, the team leader who's a left Handed shooter drop his right hand, and he's down the hall and he's getting shot at. And he reaches down with his right hand, he starts grabbing these little kids. The people that were trying to kill him sent their own kids. Did you ever go through a training, a tactical training where they threw little kids in the hall that you had to grab to fucking put behind you? Like that's American. You either have that in you or you don't. Right. That's why I decided to write the book. Most people don't know that. At any rate, as soon as I called the gunship and told them that they used the ir. And I could see there were some dudes heavy rolling a few of them, a couple of them. And then they shut off the ir and I got us lined up into the wind. Because I was a dog guy before, and I knew, okay, I can't remember my birthday sometimes, but I can remember where the wind was coming that night. And the way we landed was south to north, and the wind was out of the east and lined the dog up. I looked at the two dudes that I was with, and I'm like, you guys ready? And they looked at me like, what? Let's go. And this is. I'd done this before. It worked in the past. The dog buys you a fucking half a second. You know what I mean?

[Brent Tucker]

Yeah.

[James Hatch]

So. But you got to be there. You got to be there with him, you know? And we started out, I would just. At that point, I put the little MP7 up. Then I started watching the dog, and I knew that the dog would tell me when we were close. The other guys, you know, the handler was right next to me. The other shooter got himself out on a little bit of an L. Really good shooter. We start moving towards the last place I could see where those guys were, and they dropped down. Turns out it was a ditch that they dropped down in. And I didn't see it, but as we got close, I could see the dog do what the dogs do when they know that it's time to get it on. And I was like, yep, here we go. And as soon as he started up the side of the ditch, boom, boom. The guy in front of me, I mean, and we were. I was, you know, 15ft from the dude. I saw the dog get blown back. I saw from the muzzle flash that he was clearly not an American. So I start filling him in, and, you know, she's in the MP7. And I was like, he's not going to down. I mean, he wasn't doing anything, but I was shooting him really close in the face.

[Brent Tucker]

Yeah.

[James Hatch]

And he was like. Yeah. I was like, that's disturbing. So I just remember that for a second. Then I took a step towards him, and when I put my leg down, I was yelling, hey, get the dog back. And his buddy was in the ditch next to him. And I don't know exactly what happened because you never hear the rounds that get you. Right. All I know is that my leg went away. The other guys that were with me said that he emptied his magazine. And then the pictures I saw after that, he clearly had done that. He also had struck some grenades. So one guy thought, who was not close, he's one of the guys that covered ground to save me. He said he thought that the guy blew himself up and that that's what had, you know, injured me. But there were two exit wounds. I just go ahead and say it was an AK47 round, because God damn it, it hurt. And I'll tell you what, man. I remember there was a guy named.

[Brent Tucker]

Did you have ISR video of it by chance?

[James Hatch]

Was I. I'm sure there was, but I've never shown me. Okay. And then when I became a public person, like, nobody's gonna. You know, I don't just send him anything. He'll put it on the news. Right. Which, I mean, that's good reason. No. I think at the point that I went down, my life changed immediately. Right then and there, I became a witness to the American spirit. And I. Regardless of the decisions I made to get there and they. After all my mental health stuff, I got to a place where I could be at peace with it because it had worked for me in the past. I was a pretty experienced guy. And at the end of the day, when you're dancing with consequences, the roll of the dice, everybody in a gunfight gets a vote.

[Brent Tucker]

That's right.

[James Hatch]

And that's just one of the bets that I made that didn't work out for me, you know? And I got that dog killed. And that was the most brutal part for me, because the dogs are not volunteers.

[Brent Tucker]

No.

[James Hatch]

And. And I grew up. I didn't have a choice. You know, none of us really do. But I was born and brought up into different families, and I saw the way the dogs were similar to me, and I was similar to the dogs in that I had a pure drive to do certain things. Right. And when you run through the woods chasing motherfuckers down with a dog and you're looking at each other and you're running and you're breathing, and it's like a rhythm. And you're a team. There's some primal biological hunt man in there that is like the dog's giving you a little of his juice and you're giving him some. And that hunt together, that teamwork of between two beasts is such a gift. But they have to rely on us. The life they live is the one we give them.

[Brent Tucker]

Right. Do you think. Do you think the dogs. Do you think the dogs know? No, I think this is a game to them. Do you think at some point.

[James Hatch]

Well, I think some of the dogs really like to hurt people, but I don't believe that they could get hurt doing it if they thought that they. If they knew what a bullet was. Like you. You know, we train them. Look, we manipulate the. Out of those dogs. We use the one thing, the most powerful thing they have is their loyalty.

[Brent Tucker]

Loyalty.

[James Hatch]

Yeah. And we manipulate it. That's why Spikes can't. I find is important. We got to do every thing we can for those dogs because guess what? I got teammates. I'm sure you do. I'm home because of them. I got teammates. I know cops that are home because of their dogs. So this.

[Brent Tucker]

This is, again, unpopular, but it's.

[James Hatch]

I'm here for it.

[Brent Tucker]

True. At the same time, I. I give a lot of respect and reverence to those dogs. They're still. They're still God's creation. And. And they're the best. They're called man's best friend for a reason. But they don't have families. They don't have some daughters. They don't have a wife waiting for them to come home. And I will absolutely use those dogs before. Before I put an American man in that same situation. Do it responsible.

[James Hatch]

What, Leave a kid without their dad? I got you.

[Brent Tucker]

Yeah.

[James Hatch]

And where. And this goes into the problems I have in that vein with. We. We should. It's. I can't win the argument of why you shouldn't let a dog go out and do that. And you let a guy go home to his family. Right.

[Brent Tucker]

Yeah.

[James Hatch]

But what I can argue is because of that, why isn't that dog in shape? Why aren't you in shape? Why aren't you doing everything you can do to make sure that that survives? Because his survival is based completely on your inputs.

[Brent Tucker]

Yep. Yep.

[James Hatch]

You give him all the input, so he'll go do that. Violent.

[Brent Tucker]

Right. And. And dogs at that level.

[James Hatch]

Yeah.

[Brent Tucker]

Are not easily replaceable.

[James Hatch]

No.

[Brent Tucker]

And they're so important, which is why it's so, you know, there's again, several factors. Out of respect to the dog. Out of respect to your teammates, to yourself. Out of respect to yourself. Respect to resources.

[James Hatch]

Yeah.

[Brent Tucker]

You know, we can't just.

[James Hatch]

It is a soul. It is created by God. It is a soul. And that that counts. And especially when it's completely in your care.

[Brent Tucker]

Right. Yeah. You know, I think the problem. The problem that we can't separate as high performing individuals is this. It's. It's necessary. You will be your own worst critic. You don't need anyone to tell you what you could have done better that night. No one.

[James Hatch]

In fact, at our level. Yes. At other levels, I don't know.

[Brent Tucker]

But yeah. No one's. And, and no one knows exactly what you were thinking, why you were thinking it. You know that. And you will analyze it and you will. And especially after you're shot and hurt because I dealt with it too. And you will just crush yourself.

[James Hatch]

I'm a piece of.

[Brent Tucker]

And you'll think you let down everyone. No one else was thinking that.

[James Hatch]

Yeah.

[Brent Tucker]

No one's. It's the dark place that you put yourself into because we always. We do self critique ourselves heavily. You have to make sure that we're performing at a high level. Yeah, it's the best part about you. And when something goes wrong, it's the worst part about you.

[James Hatch]

Yeah. It's the worst fight of your life because you're fighting yourself and you're a tough motherfucker and it's cool when you're fucking kicking somebody else's ass, but when you're kicking your own. Right. And then you end up in the mental hospital.

[Brent Tucker]

Something else you mentioned that I don't know if I've thought about until you mentioned it. About just the. The chaos of a gunfight. And there's. There's two aspects of that I've. I've been in gunfights where because of our level of training and because of the amazing people do left and right, highly choreographed. In control. The whole time I knew where everyone was. That right?

[James Hatch]

Yeah.

[Brent Tucker]

Just like clockwork. That's how it's done. We're the best. We go home. And then there's other times you don't know where they are. You don't know where your teammates are. You don't know where you are. You don't know where they landed.

[James Hatch]

You like, like that talking head song how did I get here? This is not my beautiful right. Yeah.

[Brent Tucker]

Nothing makes sense. And we're. And. And they have the home field advantage every time. Somehow we still come out on Top. Sometimes at a. At a loss. I'm just. I'm enamored by the. The vast difference of. Of. Of what gunfights can. Can be.

[James Hatch]

I believe that your organization. My organization. I've not worked around a lot of the high end federal guys in shooting scenarios often, but they're solid too. The HRT guys that I've worked with were. Look, It isn't actually. Let me say it this way. I talked about a night when I made a decision that got civilians killed in my class on courage. And I. Because I thought it would demonstrate courage on my part and it would also give them an insight into what's real about warriors that they've never met. People like us. Right. And that is that yeah, we're brawlers and we don't want to kill the fuckers that want to hurt our people. But we're also humans who have to deal with the consequences. Right. When you deal with the consequences, the people who deal with consequences for real are not the ones out there talking about Marcus Luttrell being a piece of shit or Jimmy Hatch being a public guy who shouldn't say certain things. They're getting after it and they're learning their mistakes. They're after actioning those things and then they're getting back to work. They're not spending time. I wasted a lot of time. The guy who's responsible for me being at Yale is an economics professor of note. In fact, he's like. He's like the expert on healthcare.

[Brent Tucker]

Okay.

[James Hatch]

Right. And he's got some really interesting man you should have him on.

[Brent Tucker]

Okay.

[James Hatch]

He'd fire some people up. And he's for sure. He's. He's a real Yale professor. Like he's.

[Brent Tucker]

So I don't need tier one, tier one operators. I'm looking for people that are tier one people. Tier one in their profession.

[James Hatch]

He's. I got a whole list of those. I'll take them anyway. I don't. I completely lost.

[Brent Tucker]

Well, you said that he. He's the reason that. That brought you on to Yale, which I'm interested in. That was gonna be my next line of question anyways.

[James Hatch]

Okay.

[Brent Tucker]

Flows right in.

[James Hatch]

Oh man. I got lost. Sorry, buddy.

[Brent Tucker]

We'll edit it out.

[James Hatch]

So I'm doing the Spike Skinner. After I got injured and went through all of the mental health stuff, it was hard. I should probably talk about how the cops got involved in my life. Sure. Everyone do that in live.

[Brent Tucker]

Send it now so we can do it of both.

[James Hatch]

Okay. So I came back. Medevac got to the Hospital or got to D.C. and my wife met me there, and some guys from my crew, because I have. I have kids, but they were quite young. And my wife and I had been divorced and she'd been remarried. They're on the west coast, and we weren't close. In fact, after. Not long after I got wounded, probably a few weeks after, I saw. Sent them all a message and said, hey, I'm a worthless piece of. And you don't want me to be a part of your life, so just forget about me. That's how I felt, right. Right. So it was me and her, and she doesn't have a lot of family, right? So it was my unit, was my family, really. And man, guys just kept showing up. You know how the deal. You know how it is, right? My CEO sent his wife up. He's still overseas. Sent her up. Get. Get to get my wife out of my room and go out and have a few drinks and fucking get. You know. I was a fucking witness to the American spirit. When I got shot and those guys covered open ground, I was screaming. I couldn't stop screaming. I remember thinking, stop screaming. I'd be feeling my lungs. And I remember this guy, Carlos Melita, who got shot in Panama, okay? And I was like, carlos, what'd it feel like? He goes, man, I felt like I was on fire right where the bullet was. And I'm like. I remember thinking that way. He's right. It feels like something. The other thing I was thinking was I shot a lot of. With 5.5. 6 and then. And then that what, 4.6 by 30. The MP7.

[Brent Tucker]

Yep.

[James Hatch]

And nobody went down the way I went down. I got shot in the leg, but it blew my femur out. Like it was a pretty. Let me hit my. The femur. Guys saved me. I'm listening to him as they're going to work. Jimmy, you got to be quiet. I'm like, I can't. They shoved. They're like, we got to roll you over, dude. I'm like, no, because every time I move my twist, you know. Yeah. And they flip me. But when they did, one of them smashed his knees into my back and pushed all the air out of my lungs so I couldn't. The helicopter came back in, and I want to do that before I forget, because the brain damage. I don't know. It's probably 15 years later. I went to. I was out doing something with Spike's canine fund in. In Tacoma, and I talked to some of my friends out there, and they said, hey, man, we're having our family formal. Would you come? I was like, yeah, I would come talk. Because those guys are like us, right? Like, right. Their families are there, but their families don't know shit, right? They don't say shit.

[Brent Tucker]

You never come home and tell your

[James Hatch]

family what you've been through. I'm a fucking shooter. They talk about the shooters, and that's why they go to work, right? Their families know. They go to take fucking idiots like us to go roll the dice, right? So I took that as this opportunity to. It was gold. And I stood up and I said, look, man, imagine. Imagine the worst night of your life. You're laying across the world like, on the other side of the world in a fucking poppy field, bleeding to death. The only way you're getting out of there is if those motherfuckers that dropped you off in that shit show come back and get you. And guess what? Not for a fucking second did I doubt that Those. Can you imagine that kind of feeling? Like, yeah, I'm dancing with the consequences, but I know they've got some shit piled up in case things go sideways, right? Like, yeah, that's a. I can't tell you how powerful that is. And, you know, I'm talking to the families. Need to know that your family member does that every night. Like, that's just regular shit for them. Like, for me, it was a. It was a big deal. Yeah. Another bloody guy on the fucking helicopter. In fact, the guy who's in my book club, when I met him, he came to a skydiving event for spikes up in Wisconsin. Like, hey, man, I recognize you. I'm like, were we in jail together? He goes, no. Last time I saw you, you were bleeding all over the floor of my helicopter, dude. Yeah.

[Brent Tucker]

How cool is that to get to see that guy?

[James Hatch]

But that's like. I got to see my. One of the team leaders throw kids behind him in a gunfight. I got to see. All these things are stories to help us love our country, I think.

[Brent Tucker]

Right. It is uniquely American.

[James Hatch]

It is. It is. I. I bought a. Actually, I actually had a friend, a guy who helped him publish Taliban poetry book. And guess what? You know what? It sounds like we would write. These people don't think we're humans.

[Brent Tucker]

Right?

[James Hatch]

I read that in a class.

[Brent Tucker]

Yeah.

[James Hatch]

Not because I like those. They killed my friends, and they try to kill me, and I kill my dogs, you know? But guess what? Had I been born there?

[Brent Tucker]

That's right. One. One Man's Terrace is another man's freedom fighter.

[James Hatch]

I had a Kid in one of my classes who looked like a lot of dudes we killed, and he's from that part of the world. And he. I could tell. The only reason I knew he was halfway okay is because he would walk in with a kid with yarmulke on. I'm like, they're good. So. But he came to me. He's like, hey, man, we need to talk. Yeah, I could see he was angry, you know? And I'm like, yeah, man, let's have office hours. So we went after class, went and talked, and he goes, look, man, I need you to know I don't see you the way these kids see you. I don't see. I'm like, you don't see me as a war hero. You see me as a war criminal. And he goes, exactly. And I'm like, if I grew up where you did, I'd feel the same fucking way. And I said, and this is something we need to talk about in class. And you know what he said? I'm going to change the details of this a little bit so he can't be tracked down because he still has family. He said, look, man, I have a sister that's at another college in this country, and I know how lucky we are. And if I go in class and say anything negative about the United States because of where I'm from, I'll be. Somebody can use that against me, and it'll ruin my opportunities. It will hurt my sister. And. And I was. That broke my heart. And so I said in class, into my class, I was like, look, we have people in this class who come from places where free speech isn't a thing.

[Brent Tucker]

Yeah.

[James Hatch]

I'm an American. I believe in free speech. And I want your guarantee that people can say what the they want in this classroom and not have to worry about it. And there was never a problem. And we did.

[Brent Tucker]

We talked about it, which is funny because the word free speech, it's. We do have free speech, but culturally, no one has free speech. And what I mean, like, we. We have protection of it legally.

[James Hatch]

Right.

[Brent Tucker]

But that doesn't mean there won't be social ramifications of things you say.

[James Hatch]

Consequences.

[Brent Tucker]

Consequences. Whether that's deserved or undeserved and for. And for that kid to. To recognize that and say, yeah, I have free speech legally, but, you know, yeah, socially. And consequences of that, I can legally say this. I still. There are still consequences to. For. For free speech. I think that was very insightful for that guy to.

[James Hatch]

It was also insightful for the kids to See that?

[Brent Tucker]

And, and, and he's talking to someone that's above him in power, you know, and so it's, it's one thing to say that to a. Another student, but no, no. To be in that presence and have that, that mindset, though, what a, What a great kid.

[James Hatch]

He's a Yale student and he gets

[Brent Tucker]

a Yale student, right?

[James Hatch]

I'm telling you, man, it's no, like, I. Harvard students are the same, right? Like I've. I. One of my troop commanders was a went. Did stuff at Princeton, so I've been there too. They're the same, right?

[Brent Tucker]

Yeah.

[James Hatch]

You'd be shocked at how similar it feels. I mean, you know, there's. People use hygiene and stuff, not so much in the SEAL teams, but the kids at school are, you know, how

[Brent Tucker]

did you get to Yale? What's. Oh, yeah, what's that process like? Because that isn't enough process from Seal Team 6 to Yale.

[James Hatch]

Especially for a guy who dropped out of high school during the service a day turned 17, right. So. And I'd never taken an SAT.

[Brent Tucker]

Okay.

[James Hatch]

My grade point average was in the high. No, it was in the mid ones when I left school and took a ged. So I get a diploma. I was. There was a SEAL guy I worked with who was in one of the other squadrons. Troop commander, super sharp guy that I have a lot of respect for. He messaged me, say, hey, man, I was at a conference, leadership conference. There's this guy who's a Yale professor, wants to go skydive. Would you go with him? That was kind of my thing in the teams. I like jumping a lot, so. And I had cameras and I took pictures and I really enjoyed it. I was like, yeah, give me an excuse, right? So I'm thinking some crunchy old fucker is going to show up at the drop zone and be decrepit. No, this dude shows up, he's a young guy's in great shape. He looks like Bradley Cooper, the actor. This guy's name is Zach Cooper. He was a. He went to one of those high schools where you're going to be an Olympic athlete, so you got to travel. And they. Right. He was a downhill skier.

[Brent Tucker]

Okay?

[James Hatch]

We go for a skydive and we get connected. He gets my number and he's like, hey, man, would you be interested in coming up to Yale? And I was like, well, you know, sure. I don't even know where Yale was. And he set it up. And I didn't realize that he was trying to recruit me initially. I didn't Realize it. But let me back up. Right before, actually right after Lone Survivor, I had bought one book to take with me on that deployment, and it was called Genius, and it was by a professor named Harold Bloom. And I wrote him a message from Afghanistan. And I said, this book. I'm in American troop, and we just had a lot of death. And I came back to my little fucking hovel and grabbed this book, and it's like this perfect medicine for what I need right now. And I was emotional, and I sent it to him. And he wrote back one word, survive. And I'm like, fuck. And he was a Yale professor.

[Brent Tucker]

Yeah.

[James Hatch]

What the Arrogant. I didn't realize that smart people think if you can say what you need to say in the fewest words possible, you're doing the right thing. Right? So, anyway, I wrote it off. So back at Yale, he asked me if I come. I went out, we did some tours, walked around. I was blown away. The place was like. It's like I've never seen the movie. But Hogwarts say that you seriously need to come up.

[Brent Tucker]

And I will.

[James Hatch]

Dude. I was shocked. And we went to dinner with the guy for whom I now work, who's the head of the Jackson School of Global Affairs. His name is Jim Levinson, and he is a visionary, dude. He's really good friends with this guy we know. His name's Stan McChrystal.

[Brent Tucker]

Okay.

[James Hatch]

So that's kind of. That's where we're at. Like, they're really close. And he said we were at dinner and he's like, hey, Jimmy, you ought to look into this thing here at Yale. It's called the Eli Whitney Student Program. It's for non traditional students. Now, he claims I told him to off, which I'm entirely capable of doing. But I remember laughing at it.

[Brent Tucker]

Right, okay.

[James Hatch]

And saying, look, man, I've never taken an SAT. Yeah, I had like a 1.2 grade point average. I was. And he goes, well, that's not really about that. It's about the life you've lived. Yeah, I didn't get it. It makes sense to me. Like, where we come from, you gotta have certain qualities. You got to go through the things you gotta. So I blew him off. I was like, yeah, whatever. I went back to Virginia beach and I'd been out for 10 years. So. Zach, Professor Cooper. In fact, I was skydiving with him this morning at deland. And it's funny because we met skydiving. It's kind of a thing. He got his license and everything. He sent Me the link. And he's like, hey, here's the link to the school and the application. And I was like, oh, whatever. Laughed. Blew it off. Blew it off. And then, you know, one. One night, I said, fuck it, man. What's the worst that can happen? So I filled out the application and I didn't know about how this shit works, so I fucking text Zach. I'm like, hey, Zach, I just want you to know I did. I just sent in the application. He goes, what? He goes, you did the whole application? I'm like, yeah. He said, well, how long did it take you? I said, well, about 45 minutes. He goes, wait a minute, did you write the essays? I'm like, yeah. He goes, both of them? I'm like, yeah. He goes, jimmy, how long did it take you to write the essays? I'm like, about 15 minutes. He's like, jimmy, you need to understand that people spend thousands of dollars on their kids essays to get into Yale. And I'm like, well, it didn't seem that fucking hard to me. Pretty easy question, right? Yeah. And he's like, jimmy, do me a favor. Email the person in admissions and ask him if you can resubmit those essays. I actually work for her now, part time. I work part time in admissions for the non traditional student stuff.

[Brent Tucker]

Okay. Remember the questions were that they wanted you to ask?

[James Hatch]

I don't. Okay. But I can find out. In fact, there's a. There's a kid I want to say, he's from 1st Battalion Ranger Battalion, who just is starting this year. Nice. So I finished the email. I sent it. She's like, no, you can't. But you could submit two more if you like. So I took the ones that I had written and I sent them to Zach and he helped me with this thing called punctuation and grammar.

[Brent Tucker]

Right.

[James Hatch]

And yeah, and then I sent him. I resubmitted him.

[Brent Tucker]

Okay.

[James Hatch]

And then you don't hear anything. Right? For I don't hear. Then I got an email that said, hey, your interview. You have an interview with two people on this day. And the first one was a person who is actually a non traditional student like me. And they have like a series of questions and they want to see is this person gonna be able to come here and be humble enough to get through this and blah, blah, blah. And then the second one is with an actual admissions person. Well, guess what? I had fucking scheduled for that day. Because I was like, yeah, fuck, it was the colonoscopy. So I had drank the fucking bucket of venom. So I'm sitting at the table with my computer for the. I've got my little fucking time, you know, I'm looking all sharp and shit. I couldn't get through like the first interview. I got through without like any major issues. But the second one, I'm like, I stand up, I'm like, can I go to the bathroom? She's like, sure, right? I wish I wouldn't have done that. So I got through it. And then about a month later, I think, or so I heard, I got this email. I'm sitting at the kitchen table, my wife's in there, and hey, you've been admitted. And I'm like, honey, they just admitted me. And she's like, I quote, you're a fucking idiot if you don't take that opportunity.

[Brent Tucker]

Yeah.

[James Hatch]

Which is a very big deal to her. We haven't really talked about this, but the way our families are neglected while we're out doing the action, man, bullshit. I was gone 270 days a year. I mean, she was at home watching the news. Oh, a whole helicopter full of seals got shot down. Where's my husband? Oh, he happens to be. You know what I mean?

[Brent Tucker]

Right.

[James Hatch]

So for her to say that, hey, man, I'm gonna have to move to Connecticut. We've been separated, we've been a lot, most of our marriage. She's got her career, right. Selfless. I'm like, fuck it, you know, Yale. I showed up, man. It was the best thing that's ever happened to me. It changed the lens through which I view the world. And it's exposed me to the same drives and passions and fortitude that I saw in Special operations in 18 year old kids that don't have any clue about the military.

[Brent Tucker]

I love to hear that.

[James Hatch]

It is inspiring every day. And look, man, there's people there that believe at three years old, you can have gender dysphoria. I don't believe that. But guess what? This America. There's 25,000 people on the campus at Yale. Some people believe some shit I disagree with. And guess what? We can sit in the room and talk about it.

[Brent Tucker]

That's right.

[James Hatch]

And I think that's what's important. I also think that there's. If you can push yourself in situations like we did, physically, mentally, emotionally, why would you not continue to do that in other ways? So that's what I started to get as I started going through it, reading these different things, being exposed to the different subjects, forced to take classes. I didn't want to take biology, but Yale, smart like this is how they do it. They have an instructor that lectures like two or three times. The first instructor was a guy who's created a peptide that kills tumors. That's kind of important. The second one was the woman who's top in the world at addiction and how that works. It's called biology. The world and us. And it's for people who aren't science people. Yale understands that there's people that are going to be great in finance, but there's a requirement to take biology. Let's do something that's useful. And then Carl Zimmer was another guy they brought in in the biology class. He's like, this is how data was manipulated during COVID He writes for the New York Times. Charts had podcasts up where people talking, saying, he's like, see this? This is it. And like the whole thing, like the data, they call it the academic treatment. And when the academic treatment is the way we do AARs, and that's what like the lacrosse team, they need to do AARs, they need to go back and look with a fine tooth comb at the mistakes and the good things. Right. Like, you remember coming back and like, this is going to be a tough one.

[Brent Tucker]

Yeah.

[James Hatch]

That's something that we as Americans don't do. I think enough of the aar, like we talked about it with the lone survivor stuff, right?

[Brent Tucker]

Yeah.

[James Hatch]

I don't think we look back at like the Afghanistan. I went on Anderson Cooper show and said, hey man, we need to do an after action like we do in

[Brent Tucker]

the military that got swept under the rug because no one wanted to hear,

[James Hatch]

no one wants to talk about it. Nobody want to talk about it.

[Brent Tucker]

Responsibility for it.

[James Hatch]

It's getting, it's getting ready. Like I think that committee, right, is getting ready to come out with some announcements. And I'll be willing to bet they're going to go after some of the military people. And that's going to piss me off.

[Brent Tucker]

Because if, if you did, if you looked into it unbiased and really tried to find the root cause, then there would be consequences. You know, there's no consequences if you don't look into it.

[James Hatch]

Exactly. Right?

[Brent Tucker]

Well, that's not true. There's no personal consequences. There are, there are dire consequences later on down the road. Not, not capturing these lessons learned.

[James Hatch]

We talked to over a dozen senior officials, more than a dozen for that class. It was a year long class. Two special operations people out of at least 15 speakers. The only people who said that they had made an error were the special operations people.

[Brent Tucker]

Wow.

[James Hatch]

Not one Diplomat. Not one conventional said that they made errors. Not fucking one.

[Brent Tucker]

Wow.

[James Hatch]

I invited President Obama, President Biden, President Bush. I invited all of them. And there's people at Yale that know them, you know what I mean? Like none of them would show up, you know. But guess what? I had to show up when I shot my dog. And I had to go through the after action. Right. I had to. I had to talk about the consequences. Why don't leaders have to do that? You go out on the target tonight and fucking smoke some lady just because you're pissed off you're going to jail.

[Brent Tucker]

Absolutely right. You should.

[James Hatch]

And, and sending people to drop fucking JDAM's on where the consequences. Right, right. This is also another big discussion. As the technology becomes more and more integrated into conflict, at what point does it become unhuman? And is that okay? A guy like Tolstoy would say war should be horrible when it becomes easy.

[Brent Tucker]

That's right.

[James Hatch]

Right.

[Brent Tucker]

And isn't that the truth? There's a wicked man. Think about that for a second. But I love the saying, which I. I don't know which weapons World War 3 will be fought with, but World War 4 will be fought with sticks and stones.

[James Hatch]

I mean, sounds like a legit plan to me, you know?

[Brent Tucker]

Yeah.

[James Hatch]

Yeah. I just. We just hosted at the Jackson School, we just hosted 15 Ukrainian veterans. There's a person of means who's Ukrainian who wants the next. This is his quote. I want the next leaders of Ukraine to be veterans. So he spent. He wrote a check for these people to come to Yale. And we put together a course.

[Brent Tucker]

Good.

[James Hatch]

And listen to them talk about the technology and what's going on and the way. You're right, you're right, you're right.

[Brent Tucker]

How. How do you start the. The Spikes, the Canine Spikes fund. So in 2000, how'd that come about?

[James Hatch]

In 2005 or actually in the 90s, I wrote a point paper to the leadership on bringing dogs in to help us with one of our legacy clearance problems. Because they're large clearance problems and very large. Yeah. And. And a place where a canine might be effective because they can move quickly and, you know, their ability to discern their nose, blah, blah, blah, blah. So I wrote that and they're like, hey, this is a great paper. And they put it somewhere in the file. I left, went to the jump team, came back anyway. When I got back, they said, hey, would you be interested in being a handler? You're not going to be the number one man, but, you know, we need a shooter to be And I was like, I would fucking jump at it.

[Brent Tucker]

So they post tale time or. No, no, no. After the injury.

[James Hatch]

This was right after lone survivor stuff.

[Brent Tucker]

Okay.

[James Hatch]

So when I got injured, I was done.

[Brent Tucker]

Okay. All right.

[James Hatch]

So I, I was like, heck, yeah. Came back from the 2005 deployment, the lone survivor stuff, and picked up Spike. They'd gone overseas. You guys had already set up a kind of system and our guys just kind of climbed on board with it, went over and got the dogs in Holland. And Spike came back and I was scared to death of him. I went and got Slim jims and at 7:11 on my way in that. Because I was going to meet him that day and I cut him all up and shit on him and he's like, yeah, I think we can get along, right? He was only about 62 pounds and he was, he was amazing. He was really smart. And I loved him, like in a. Probably not a healthy way. Like, I was too close. Like he was, you know, I was like emotionally like a six year old, you know. And this dog to me was like love. And I still felt from the minute I saw him that I was responsible for every. For him being good at his job, from surviving it, because I'm asking him to do these things, like, it was just clear to me and I love that connection. And then when I started to feel what the biology of hunting with that was like. Yeah, that's like a heroin of its own. Yeah. And. One night we went to do a hit. As of December 23, there were actually guys, important kids, into Ramadi to be suicide bombers, you know. Right. So we found out where they were located. We went to do the hit and we had a squirter right off the bat sent him and he hit him and hit him up here in the chest. And the guy grabbed him, bam. Took him to the ground, guys, big guy. And I put a couple rounds into him. One of them went through and hit Spike. And I didn't see it at the time, but the guy rolled over after I put some rounds into him. Me, there was another shooter with me. And I ran towards the guy who had rolled off to take care of him. And as I was doing it, I looked at, I looked at or I yelled to my buddy, I was like, hey, man, I think he broke his leg. And he's like, no, Jimmy, he's really hurt. So he was kind of staggering, but he was trying to come back into the fight. So I snatched him by the thing and I threw him over my back and started running back to The. The initial insertion point or the initial contact point and you know where the PJ was. And I felt him stop breathing on the way back. You know, I was running with him on my shoulder. And then I remember sitting down in the PJ looking at me, and he was like. He didn't. He's like, I can't. There's nothing I can do. And it was. My relationship with the dog was clear to everybody. A little bit extra than most people's. And it's just because I was emotionally, you know, a midget. But I remember sitting on the helicopter, flying home with him, feeling his body get cold and stiff, And I look at these things that I do with the dogs now from behind that gun.

[Brent Tucker]

Yeah.

[James Hatch]

So when I got home and I didn't know what to do with myself after I had my meltdown and the police came to my house and kept me from smoking myself and helped me get to a mental hospital, I went to the. I didn't know what to do with myself because I thought I didn't really have anything to offer. I knew I was good at fighting and I could do stuff with dogs. So I went to the police department that had come to my house, and I said, hey, can I help you guys? I'm Jimmy Hatch. I used to do. They're like, we know who you are. And, yeah, they didn't need my help, but they knew I needed to, like, have an arm around me and have a job and have meaning, you know? And so I was doing that, and then one of their dogs got. Needed a surgery in the city's like, hey, man, we can't. We're not going to cut. And I was like, are you fucking kidding me? This dog has done. He's been shot at. He's fucked, you know?

[Brent Tucker]

Yeah.

[James Hatch]

What do you mean, you don't have the money? Right? So I lost my shit. And it was right about the time I'd done an interview with Anderson Cooper, and we gotten to be kind of friends, and I talked about it. And then not long after that, one of the. Norfolk, Virginia, one of the dogs. Dog named Krieger, big fucking strong son of a bitch got killed. Hit a guy high, and a guy fucking put a couple rounds into him. And I actually sent the story to Anderson, and I was like, hey, man, can you help? I started this little nonprofit. Can you help me out with this? And he goes, yeah, I'm going to give you my speaker's fee. I don't get paid to speak. What? Anderson Cooper gets paid to speak, but it Changed everything. Wow. It changed everything. And he shook all the cops hands, and he. He. After that, for, like, the next, I don't know, two or three years, he really, like, when he went on Celebrity Jeopardy. We would be his charity of choice. In fact, I went to D.C. to see that, and I'm like, hey, man, thank you. And he's like, I. I didn't win. If you're the winner, you win 50k.

[Brent Tucker]

Okay.

[James Hatch]

If you're the runner up, either or the runner up, you get 10k. He's like, I'm embarrassed that I didn't win. I'm gonna write you the check for the other 40k. I'm like, holy.

[Brent Tucker]

I love that.

[James Hatch]

Yeah.

[Brent Tucker]

Didn't have to do that.

[James Hatch]

And it's funny too, because we'll go do these, like, police trainings, and they'll be like, Anderson Cooper, that liberal. I'm like, he's into us for over a million bucks. I don't think he's that liberal. He likes cops and he likes dogs. I'm. I don't know these. What you think he is. You know what that showed me, though, was that a celebrity, a person who has that kind of. And will risk that his name on you and your cause is. Is like winning the lottery.

[Brent Tucker]

Yeah.

[James Hatch]

Then we started saving dogs, with dogs getting shot up. We could pay for their medical. We could pay for vests. We could pay for training. The woman who runs it, Emily, is. Her husband's an EOD guy. Pretty busy Tier one level guy. She's a tier one level, you know, nonprofit Gestapo leader. Right. It's beautiful.

[Brent Tucker]

Ah.

[James Hatch]

We're helping the dogs. It's also. I'm not gonna lie, because we're about talking the truth here. It's really frustrating for me.

[Brent Tucker]

Yeah.

[James Hatch]

I feel like that the law enforcement community could really use some help from our community.

[Brent Tucker]

Yeah.

[James Hatch]

And I think I can see why they're frustrated. People talk shit about it all the time. There's never a good story about cops doing anything good. It's always fuck you, fuck you, fuck you.

[Brent Tucker]

They do so much good.

[James Hatch]

Exactly. And I think maybe sometimes people lose a little motivation. I work with. I've worked with police departments from Honolulu to Boston, and there's good departments and good units, bad units, good. I just wish, as a collective community, it would pick itself up more, especially with the dogs.

[Brent Tucker]

Yeah, it's. It's. I talk to him about dogs. It's. It blows my mind. Most SWAT teams don't have a dog, and if they do, it's not a dedicated dog. And it's.

[James Hatch]

It's the work they don't want to do.

[Brent Tucker]

Some of it's the work they don't want to do, and some of it's. They just don't get the resources.

[James Hatch]

It's true.

[Brent Tucker]

And it's crazy to me is that if something. Having a dog can make things go right. I mean, everything you can do, training, budget, resources.

[James Hatch]

Yeah.

[Brent Tucker]

Lowers your risk. The police department. Well, almost everyone. Right. In the tactical military, law enforcement risk is what everyone's scared of. But for whatever reason, they won't. They won't allocate to that. But if something goes wrong, they'll. They'll pay out in civil court a million dollars.

[James Hatch]

Right.

[Brent Tucker]

When we could have sa. We could have saved that and done it. Right.

[James Hatch]

Yeah. Or take half of it and give it to the right. No, I'm with.

[Brent Tucker]

That's what I really. So you have money.

[James Hatch]

Yeah. Well, I think that's probably another reason that law enforcement folks are frustrated.

[Brent Tucker]

Yeah.

[James Hatch]

Well, the city's happy to let somebody.

[Brent Tucker]

Right.

[James Hatch]

Right.

[Brent Tucker]

Even It's. It's even worse, really gets me going is when the. Is when the cop was cleared of all wrongdoing, yet they will still pay out in civil course and be like,

[James Hatch]

well, the guy who shot that dog in Norfolk, his family did that.

[Brent Tucker]

Well, man, I. I think that's awesome. It's awesome what you, what you do. I tell people all the time, you know, when you leave, it doesn't matter, you know what. Whatever profession you're in, that you have an emotional attachment to, the way military does, the way cops can, firefighters can. You had a purpose, and now you're purposeless. You find a purpose, and for you, you get to. You get to have, you know, interactions and get to help with the next generation of Americans through Yale.

[James Hatch]

Yeah.

[Brent Tucker]

You have the foundation, the canines, the Spike canine fund. And so I love that. I love that. Keep doing good things.

[James Hatch]

Thank you. I. We don't have a choice. We don't. I mean, don't get me wrong, I laid around for a long time, whining and crying and feeling sorry for myself and. And I'm not going to bust myself up too much over it, because it's just part of life. But one thing I did not understand was that I kept looking around for places that were like our units. And what I had to realize is that I had to create that, and I didn't have the courage to do that. I didn't understand that I needed to do that. But I also learned a couple of things, and I Tell this to my students. I always had what I needed. I just didn't think that I did. I always had what I needed to do what I wanted to do. And two, I was so worried about what other people thought about me. Nobody gives a. Nobody cares. Everybody's worried about their own shit, you know?

[Brent Tucker]

Right, exactly.

[James Hatch]

Anyway, well, I got.

[Brent Tucker]

I got one last question for you. That always happened.

[James Hatch]

Then we'll.

[Brent Tucker]

We'll take a small break. We'll go do the live. Especially with the canine stories. So I always like to leave people on a high note. Tell me a funny story. It's just that simple. Just that blunt and that simple.

[James Hatch]

So we talked about Spike and when he died. But one of the funniest things, you know, speaking of what people think about you, we were. When we patrolled, I would patrol with the recce guys up front, and we would get to kind of a ready point, and we would stop. We'd pick up, he and I. One of the recog guys would pick a spot to kind of secure things where he could keep an eye on stuff. And Spike was with me. He didn't have his leash on. He was, you know, he was pretty obedient, and I could keep him with me. So he was right next to me where he was supposed to be. And I was looking through the gun, and I was looking at the target. And, you know, we were at this kind of an end of a concrete fence that was about, I don't know, three and a half feet high. And I'm looking at the target out here and the fence keep.

[Brent Tucker]

Take the microphone with you.

[James Hatch]

The fence is like, right. The fence is like, right here. And I'm looking at the target and the other recky guy standing there with me. And we're looking. He's kind of behind a little tree with just for a little cover. And all of a sudden I hear. And I felt Spike run. And he was moving. Yeah, this way. And I went and I looked and there was a. You know, in Iraq, they would tie, like, goats and cattle up by, like, one foot. Right, Right. Yeah. So this cow, I didn't even hear it. I didn't know it was there. But I look over and there's Spike hanging from his throat like a foot, you know, jackal off the end. I'm like, off the cow. And I'm like. And we're right. The target's right there. And I'm like, hey, what the. I'm whispering, my Spike. What the. And the guy that's with me, his name is Greg. He's like. I'm like, hey, don't tell anybody about that. But we were like, we're, like, a couple hundred meters from this, you know? But he was a dog. He's still a dog.

[Brent Tucker]

That's right. He's still a dog. He's a lethal dog, but he's still a dog.

[James Hatch]

Yeah. And he'd take a on the floor if he needed.

[Brent Tucker]

Well, Jimmy, I can't thank you enough for coming down here, telling your story, spending time with us. I can't wait to do this live, man. I really, really appreciate it.

[James Hatch]

Thanks for the opportunity.

[Brent Tucker]

The pleasure was all mine. All right, let's go to the garage, smoke some cigars and tell some stories, huh? Let's go.