Surprise, Kill, Vanish | Special Forces Jedburgh Teams

Summary

Tier1 Podcast – Surprise, Kill, Vanish: Special Forces Jedburgh Teams

Host: Brent Tucker
Guest: Sgt. Major (Ret.) Travis Horning (5th Special Forces Group, 22 years service)
Producer: Drew Tucker
Date: April 13, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this in-depth episode, host Brent Tucker welcomes retired Sgt. Major Travis Horning to unpack the fascinating history, resurrection, and operational significance of the Special Forces Jedburgh Teams–the legendary "three-man teams" whose origins date back to World War II OSS missions. Horning offers rich firsthand insight into his SF career, shares rare historical context, and provides candid stories on leadership, unconventional warfare, and the evolution of mission sets from Europe to Syria. Both men recount their shared time on the ground in Syria, reminisce about team culture, and discuss the challenges and transitions faced by senior SOF leaders.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Introducing Sgt. Major Travis Horning and the Jedburghs (02:02–04:40)

• Brent Tucker introduces Travis Horning as a highly decorated 5th Group veteran with extensive combat deployments in Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria, and Yemen.
• Notably, Horning possesses the rare "tower of power": Special Forces tab, Ranger tab, and Sapper tab.

Notable Quote:
“I really wanted you to come on here and shed light on that niche part of SF because you guys couldn’t have been any more impressive… whatever 5th Group Jedburgh teams were doing… they were doing something right.” (Brent Tucker, 04:10)

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2. The OSS Origins: Jedburghs in World War II (05:13–14:57)

Historical Context

• The Jedburgh concept originated with the OSS in 1943: 3-man allied teams (one American, one British, one French), trained in guerrilla warfare, sabotage, languages, and behind-the-lines operations in Europe.
• Missions included: organizing and training French resistance, conducting sabotage (railway, bridges), and prepping the environment for the D-Day invasion.
• Total: 93 teams (~300 men); surprisingly low casualties considering the risk (approx. 17, per Horning).

Key Moments & Quotes

• The Danger & Effectiveness: “Three-man teams behind enemy lines is insane… there’s, it’s one thing to have a three-man team—it’s another to be a three-man team and effective.” (Brent Tucker, 06:37) “They pioneered unconventional warfare.” (Travis Horning, 07:12)
• Language & Culture: “You don’t have room for an interpreter… you better know it all and be able to do it all.” (Brent Tucker, 07:48)
• Normandy & Intelligence: “Their overall objective was to prepare for D-Day… Had those teams not been as effective as they were, I don’t think we would have made it past D-Day.” (Travis Horning, 11:56) “Jedburgh teams being smart enough… knowing what to say, what not to say… the resistance is their friends in a sense, but secrets don’t make friends, they make best friends.” (14:37)
• Global Reach:
  Jedburghs also operated in Belgium, Norway, the Netherlands, and the Philippines, with connections to Special Forces founding fathers like Aaron Bank and Col. Aaron Volckmann (16:41)

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3. Horning’s Path: From Combat Engineer to Special Forces (22:21–36:00)

• Horning’s father urged him not to go Special Forces, but a combat deployment to Iraq (05–06) opened his eyes to the mythos and effectiveness of SOF.
• Progressed through Sapper School, Ranger School, multiple deployments, then selection for Special Forces—overcoming injuries during SFAS (fractured ankle and tibia, but never quit).

Notable Quotes:

• “I’m in the wrong business” — after seeing SOF teams rolling out on night ops while his unit searched for IEDs at 5 mph. (24:24)
• “My biggest concern was getting a blister… there you are with essentially a broken leg finishing it.” (40:35–41:27)
• “There’s no way I am going back to my unit a failure.” (41:42)

Sapper School Insights

• Sapper was “harder” (higher technical demand in 28 days), Ranger “sucked more” (longer duration, 62 days).
• Sapper focuses: mobility/countermobility/survivability; demo, obstacles, patrolling, mountaineering—direct lineage to battlefield essentials from the 1700s through Iraq/Afghanistan.

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4. Life on the ODAs, Team Culture, and SOF Effectiveness (44:11–62:01)

Assignments & Operational Insights

• Fifth Group is described as the “group” within SF for GWOT-era missions (Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria).
• Discussion of northern Afghanistan: overlooked AORs can be “hot” if you dig for targets, with creative solutions like jump med stations pushing the operational envelope.
• Not all SOF/ODA teams are alike—culture, risk tolerance, and aggression differ even within elite units.

Quotes:

• “Some teams are a lot more aggressive, some are risk-averse… it was just really unique.” (48:38)
• “When you give a Green Beret the ability to experiment—it’s mind-blowing what people can come up with.” (59:51)

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5. Jedburgh Teams Reborn: Modern Mission & Selection (50:01–58:38)

• 2014: Jedburghs revived in SF; structure: 3-person teams, all-American, hand-selected by group Cdr, senior, multiple deployments required.
• Purpose: fill the gap where “the agency ended and the ODA began.”
• Emphasis on high language proficiency—some members fluent in 6–8 dialects of Arabic for independent ops.

Memorable Segment:

• Jedburgh Medics: (54:40)
  Brent recounts witnessing a Jedburgh medic teach a complex trauma class in perfect Arabic, no interpreter needed—a powerful example of both language mastery and SF training.

• Team Composition:
  “You may not have a Delta (medic), so they created a higher level medical course for us…” (57:51)

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6. Syria: Application of Unconventional Warfare – A Memorable Era (58:38–62:55)

• Jedburghs and host’s unit link up in Syria; a true “beginning-of-the-war” environment—unfettered SOF creativity, small-team innovation, building base camps, partner force development.
• SF pioneers TTPs: demo ambush, harassment missions, denying movement by blowing roads/bridges—“real MacGyver stuff.”
• Unique capability: Integration, cross-functional skillsets; three Jedburghs could fill multiple critical gaps for the whole camp.

Quotes:

• “That trip specifically was probably the, I guess, most Green Beret trip I’ve ever done—essentially Robin Sage but for real.” (61:19)
• “Everywhere we needed you guys, you could plug in.” (61:15)
• “I’d have made it mandatory that you guys came with us on our next trip too…” (62:01)

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7. Team Culture & Brotherhood: Life on Base in Syria [Fun Segments] (66:00–75:00)

• SF team and Jedburghs create a unique team house culture: building a “GB Lounge”/bar, gym, “board of feats of manliness,” custom demo-etched steel coasters, and mandatory duties like “fire pit commander.”
• Lighthearted competition (pullups, bench, curls), jokes about “which group is best,” and lore from shared deployments.
• Election night 2016: Brent’s infamous “Trump won!” wakeup call.

Quote:
“If you can’t tie a knot, tie a lot. That’s gotten me through so much in life.” (28:43–29:10)

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8. Leadership Lessons: Advancing to Company & Battalion Sergeant Major (76:22–88:04)

• Transition from team sergeant ("best job in the army") to company sergeant major: “now you’re a team sergeant for team sergeants.”
• The importance of mentoring, supporting hungry teams, and firing when necessary.
• Team cohesion is everything; division (“shadow governor” theory) can sabotage a team from within.
• Ops SGMs run complex multinational battalion operations—responsible for over 1,000 people across 4+ countries.
• The reality of high-performing organizations: high expectations mean little praise for good, big consequences for error.

Quotes:

• “When you do something really good, you’re met with ‘yeah, that’s what I expect you to do.’” (88:15)
• “There’s nothing more frustrating than dealing with someone just looking for a reason to say ‘no’.” (92:24)

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9. Reflections on SOF in War: Afghanistan, Iraq, and the Kurds (94:16–102:30)

• Afghanistan's failure laid mostly at Afghan feet—“The Afghans lost Afghanistan… We decided to try to nation build, but the problem is, they didn’t want it as bad as we wanted it.” (96:01–97:16)
• Iraq more successful; “they wanted it more and are trying to build something that can stand on its own.”
• The Kurds: “Probably the easiest to work with… they get it, and want to achieve their objectives.”
  • Tough question: Should the Kurds have been given their own country? Hosts note the complexity but feel they did “earn it.”

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10. Retirement & Closing Thoughts (102:30–End)

• Horning recently retired after 22 years, prioritizing stability for his family and a desire to leave on his own terms.
• Discussing the emotional challenge of transition, the importance of closing ceremonies for camaraderie, and some heartfelt, lighthearted stories from childhood.

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Memorable & Notable Quotes

History & Mission

• “Three-man teams behind enemy lines is insane… but it’s another to be a three-man team and effective.” (06:35)
• “That’s what we were designed to fill: the gap where the agency ended and the ODA began.” (53:10)

Operational Brilliance

• “There’s a culture in SOF, but within that, each team—some are more aggressive, thoughtful, or just want to crush things.” (48:38)
• “When you give a Green Beret the ability to experiment—it’s mind-blowing what people can come up with.” (59:51)

Team & Leadership

• “Nobody wants to go back to their unit a failure.” (41:42)
• “A company sergeant major is just a team sergeant for team sergeants.” (77:06)
• “There’s nothing more frustrating than dealing with someone just looking for a reason to say ‘no’.” (92:31)

Brotherhood & Memory

• “If you can’t tie a knot, tie a lot. That’s gotten me through so much in life.” (29:09)
• “That trip was essentially Robin Sage—but for real.” (61:19)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

| Topic | Timestamp | |-------------------------------------|---------------| | Jedburgh WWII Origins & Effectiveness | 05:13–14:57 | | Sapper School & Path to SOF | 22:21–41:27 | | Life on ODAs / Fifth Group Culture | 44:11–48:38 | | Return of Jedburgh Teams (Modern Era) | 50:01–58:38 | | Syria: Building Out, UW Ops | 58:38–62:55 | | Team Life: Gym, Competitions, Fun | 66:00–75:00 | | Leadership Challenges: Company/Battalion Sgt. Major | 76:22–92:24 | | Reflections on Afghanistan/Iraq/Kurds | 94:16–102:30 | | Retirement & Final Thoughts | 102:30–End |

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Final Thoughts

This episode offers an unparalleled look into both the tactical history and living culture of Special Forces Jedburgh teams, punctuated by sharp leadership lessons and the unique flavor of SOF brotherhood. Horning’s honest, humble stories traverse the path from OSS legend to the modern Middle East, giving listeners an authentic sense of what it means to "Surprise, Kill, Vanish."

Motto embodied:
Surprise, Kill, Vanish—SKV!

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For more real-world SOF stories, leadership insight, and exclusive operator lessons, subscribe to Tier1 Podcast and check out their Patreon.

Transcript

[Brent Tucker]

Welcome back to the Tier One podcast. I am your host, Brent Tucker, owner of FRCC. Go to FRCC Shop and use promo code Tier One to get 15% off the world's best coffee, cigars and bourbon. And I'm Drew Tucker, giving away prizes at FRCC Shop for monthly drop supply customers. So get started this month and you'll be entered to win monthly prizes every month. You also here on the Tier 1 podcast, join our Patreon brought to you by Cobalt Kinetics. We've got a fitness forum, we got a gun forum. We've got behind the scenes exclusive content only for our Patreon members. And there's a Cobalt Kinetics weapons expert ready to answer all your gun questions in our Patreon. Speaking of Patreon, Drew, next month we're giving away a set of panos. So how about. How about that for a little bonus? Just giving it away, Brent. Just giving it away. Giving it away. Not a smart business move. But that's okay. It's good for the Patreon members.

[Travis Horning]

It's a good business. It's.

[Brent Tucker]

It's a good move. And as always, this episode is brought to you by Human Performance TRT. Go to hp-trt.com and use promo code TIER1 to get 20% off your testosterone and and peptide needs. Don't wait any longer to get in the best shape of your life. Let's do it, Drew.

[Ad Host/Announcer]

Welcome to the Tier One podcast.

[Travis Horning]

This is amazing.

[Brent Tucker]

Dude, check this out. And with us today, we have Sergeant Major retired Travis Horning. Served with the 5th Special Forces Group. Spent 22 years in the Army. Fifteen years of that at 5th Group, the Legion, if you will. And I think you will. Served in Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria. I can vouch for his. His Syria experience. We were there together at the same time. That's how I know him. Had a great time there. And if that wasn't enough, between his three different combat tours and other places, dangerous, high risk places throughout the world, Yemen. You're also one of the few people I know that have the true tower of power. Special Forces tab, Ranger tab and Sapper tab.

[Travis Horning]

That's correct.

[Brent Tucker]

Welcome to the show. Actually, I got something for you. There are some creatine gummies from Tasty Gains.

[Travis Horning]

Heck yeah.

[Brent Tucker]

And a gift from Cloud Defense.

[Travis Horning]

Everyone needs a light.

[Brent Tucker]

Everyone needs a light. I. I saw a picture of your gun safe and there's no way you have a light for every one of those guys. That is correct. That is an arsenal.

[Travis Horning]

Thanks, Brad.

[Brent Tucker]

I appreciate this. Absolutely. All right, let's. Let's get into it. I've, I've been waiting for you to retire so you can come down and hang out with me first and foremost. But again, as I mentioned, we met in Syria when I was working there and you were with the Jedburgh teams and I had known that SF had created those teams. I didn't know much about them. I don't think really anyone outside SF did. I, I'd, I'd almost say there's some team, some ODAs within SF that didn't really know what Jed Berg's teams did, did for a while. I really wanted you to, to come on here and shed light on that, that, that niche part of, of of sf because you guys couldn't have been any more impressive and I truly mean that. Me and Andrews talked about it while you guys were there. We talked about it out you left whatever fifth group Jedburgh teams were doing and, and how they put teams together, they were doing something right.

[Travis Horning]

So I appreciate that.

[Brent Tucker]

So before we get into your era of the Jedburghs, most people may, I shouldn't say most, but some people have probably heard of Jedburgh teams on it dates back to World War II. I really wanted to throw some history in there and talk about where the Jedburgh's came from and then it will shed some light on the similarities and differences of, of what they do now or why we brought them back. So let's get into that.

[Travis Horning]

Yeah, so just like really now all Special operations and specifically Special Forces. It all started with the OSS which was started in 1942 leading up to World War II. In 1943 they created the Jedburgh Teams which was an Allied team concept was three man teams consisting of one American, one British and one French. It was specifically allied so that it made it easier once they infilled into the country into France. They started training in 1943 and we're trained on numerous things. Guerrilla warfare, cryptography, hand to hand combat, sabotage, espionage, a plethora of things. Because their job was to deploy behind enemy lines and organize the resistance fighters within France. How?

[Brent Tucker]

They were small teams, weren't they? How big were the teams?

[Travis Horning]

Yeah, each team was three man teams and I believe in total there was 93 teams that were employed during World War II.

[Brent Tucker]

Three man teams. I mean they're small teams and we've worked in small teams. There are times we work when we were on Odas and we felt like 12 men was not enough to do the job. Three man teams behind enemy lines is insane. Like the amount of, of responsibilities amount of cross training that that has to happen. I just, there's a reason and, and be effective. There, there's, there's, it's one thing to have a three man team, it's another thing to be a three man team and effective. It's just, it's incredible what those guys did.

[Travis Horning]

Yes. I mean they, they pioneered unconventional warfare.

[Brent Tucker]

Yeah, they really did. SF now has, it's, it's mandatory. Everyone has to speak a foreign language. And do you think that has to do? I didn't really think about it really until right now. I think the origin of that had to do with, with the Jedburgh teams and, and their ability to have to speak different languages.

[Travis Horning]

I believe so. Just because the nature of the country they were going into and they were linking up with French speaking resistance fighters, which is why they included. It was an allied team construct.

[Brent Tucker]

Yeah, they're. You don't have, you don't have room for an interpreter. It's three, three man teams. You better, you better, you better know it all and be able to do it all. And that they did. It's another reason why, you know, being airborne was such a, a key part of, of special operations because of, of, of where there was no other way to get there except to jump in. Could you imagine jumping in the way those guys jumped in, where they jumped in with the technology, or should I say lack of technology that they had. It's just crazy.

[Travis Horning]

It's cra. Yeah.

[Brent Tucker]

I mean you don't have just a, just to paint a picture for people. Because sometimes I think when you hear stories of, of what amazing men did in the past, it's almost hard to conceptualize it because you didn't live in that time period. And so you're just used to things being easy. No such thing as gps, no such thing as satellite communication. There's no, there's no cell phones, just, just the link up procedures. Landing in the right place, getting a window to land in the right time and make sure those guys know to be in the right place at the right time and have two people who have never seen each other and are fighting a vicious enemy meet up is just that alone is crazy.

[Travis Horning]

That's the most dangerous part.

[Brent Tucker]

Yeah. You know, it's funny you say that. I, I'll never forget in phase two where we're into small unit tactics, them talking about in small unit tactics, one of the most dangerous thing you can do is friendly link up. This is a great example. One of the most dangerous things you could do is friendly link up. They had to be a little nervous meeting these guys.

[Travis Horning]

Well, and as you know, I mean, as many teams that jumped in, not all of them landed where they needed to land and it took them longer to get to link up with their partner force.

[Brent Tucker]

Yeah. And now you've missed the right time, right place, which is the very beginning of it. They don't know what you look like. No one sent a picture to them.

[Travis Horning]

Yeah.

[Brent Tucker]

You know, and so now you're outside of that window. That makes a already risky link up. Very risky.

[Travis Horning]

Yep. And everybody's on edge. Nobody trusts anybody.

[Brent Tucker]

Right. The. It's well known that those Jedburgh teams were so effective that even though they jumped in in uniform because. And they, they did that to stay within Geneva standards, Correct? Correct. They jumped in in uniform so they didn't get that spy status and would be protected. The Nazis still would kill them on site if they could find a Jedbird.

[Travis Horning]

Yeah, they did. We were playing by the rules. But as, as you know, the enemy doesn't.

[Brent Tucker]

The bad guy rarely does for some reason. And, and yet, and yet we're always painted as the bad guy to certain people, which always blows my mind. Yeah. We're the only ones that plays by that, plays by the rules. It's just it. I read somewhere, and this is again, don't let these numbers fool you, of the 300, almost 300 men that, that participated in Operation Jedburgh, not many of them died.

[Travis Horning]

Do.

[Brent Tucker]

Do you remember the count on that?

[Travis Horning]

From what I've read, it was roughly 17 or so.

[Brent Tucker]

Yeah, that sounds about right. I thought it was less than 20. That's crazy.

[Travis Horning]

Insane.

[Brent Tucker]

Because it was such a risky mission.

[Travis Horning]

But it also goes to how effective they were. They essentially trained for about a year straight leading up to this in various locations around the world, because they knew it was going to be very dangerous. Yeah.

[Brent Tucker]

They played a, a huge role into the Normandy invasion as well, did they not?

[Travis Horning]

Yes. And, and that was really their overall objective was to prepare for D Day and set. Prepare the environment to make that successful. Had those teams not been as effective as they were, I don't think we would have made it past D Day.

[Brent Tucker]

Yeah, that's another really interesting part of history that. That gets, I think that gets forgotten about. They get a lot of credit, as they should, for the disruption and what they did with the French resistance forces. But I don't think I ever hear historians documentaries talk about the Jedburgh's role in D Day.

[Travis Horning]

Yeah, I mean, they were there prior to D Day and their job was to sabotage railways, bridges, German Logistics lines, everything they could do to slow down reinforcements getting. Because they knew it was coming.

[Brent Tucker]

Yep.

[Travis Horning]

So they were all moving that, that direction. And it was the Jedburgh's job to organize the resistance and through force multiplication provide the damage that needed to be done to make it successful.

[Brent Tucker]

Which again goes back to how interesting D day was. It was such a well planned out invasion. I mean how do you, how do you hide that? Because it was a massive, massive force going in and just everything worked out well for him. A little bit of luck, a little bit of good planning. But no, no massive operation goes off well without a little bit of luck involved. But they had a couple feints where they thought made Hitler thinking that a buildup was, was coming over there. But if you think about it, these small teams that are active, actively being hunted, the communication line between there had to be so good because German they would have found out about D day had they captured the right Jedburgh. And had he. And he. Had he told, had he had something written down that he shouldn't have had written down, had they intercepted those communication lines. The fact on the intelligent side or the counter intelligence side that we. That nothing got leaked and maintained the element of surprise is another just massive thing that I don't think people really understand what an amazing operation that was and how many people were involved and

[Travis Horning]

not just like another thing to that is the Jedburgh teams being smart enough. I mean the resistance is their friends in a sense knowing what to say, what not to say. Because those resistance fighters are more likely to get captured than the Jedbirds themselves.

[Brent Tucker]

Or it reminds me of the saying secrets don't make friends, they make best friends. And there's some truth of that. And it'd be too easy to try to shore up that relationship by telling them a secret.

[Travis Horning]

Mm.

[Brent Tucker]

It's just, it's just natural to look. To look better, to look like you're in the know. Even if it's within good intentions to ensure that hey, I can trust you, you can trust me. I'm telling you things. But they didn't. And it just goes to the quality of men that, that we had from the beginning.

[Travis Horning]

And in my experience, you know, having worked with partner forces numerous times, you develop a relationship with me, you do that is just can't be duplicated.

[Brent Tucker]

I think another thing it's overlooked and I don't know a whole lot about it. When I think of Jedbird teams I really. I only think about France. I do know they operated and more but I. I couldn't tell you off the top of my head, I. Yeah.

[Travis Horning]

There was also teams that were deployed to. Was it Belgium, Norway and the Netherlands, I believe. And then some teams in the Philippines.

[Brent Tucker]

I've never even heard of them operating in the Philippines. That's right. That's. That's news to me. And I do know some of our. Like you said some of our founding fathers came. Came from that. I mean that's, that's where Special operations really, really cut its teeth. What are the. What do we have two founding fathers from Special Forces that came out of the Jedburghs.

[Travis Horning]

Yeah. So Aaron bank is probably one of the. The bigger names there's Building it. The Special Force Qualification Course named after him. He was a prior Jedburgh. And then Colonel Aaron Volkman who also. He was one of the soldiers that was on one of the teams in the Philippines.

[Brent Tucker]

Yeah, I remember going through the Q course Swick. Preparing for Aaron Banks to die because he was very old. I'll probably put it up because there will be a picture of him and I'll say, you know his, his from and to date. But he was like he. I think he went past 100 which we made. Actually we made this joke earlier because we're talking about. I think I have a chance to interview a former World War II veteran from Patton's army. He's 101 years old and like what. What happened to those guys? Had, had, had. They had. They get so durable.

[Travis Horning]

They. They. How long they're able to maintain their acute. Like they are so sharp and they remember everything it.

[Brent Tucker]

I know I've talked to SOG Mac V saw guys in Vietnam and they'll tell me the LZ they landed in and the day the operation happened, whether

[Travis Horning]

it was sunny or not, who the

[Brent Tucker]

guys were next to him. And I feel bad. So I can't remember half my former ODA members to. On. On certain teams and. And I'm. I'm guessing at years of. Of my deployments. And. And you're right. So some of these, the older generation, it's like. It's like they, I don't. It's like they never left it to. To some degree mentally and that there may be some truth of that. And I'm not trying to downplay either one of our service but. But we both know that people look at us and say that we did a lot and they'd be right. I'm not going to completely downplay that. But also guys like me and you also know what those guys really did. Oh, I have huge respect and if they wonder why we have such huge respect to them. Because we fought in wars, but we didn't. Not all wars are created equal. And what those guys did is just something special.

[Travis Horning]

Yeah. I remember my first deployment was a 12 month deployment in Iraq and I came home on mid tour leave and whenever you came through the main hub for me it was Dallas and when we got off the plane we were all in uniform and there's this massive corridor with vets on either side. You know, welcome, welcoming us home. And I look at their hats and their Vietnam, World War II, Korean War and I'm a corporal at the time. And coming back on mid to early for my first deployment, it took all I had not to just break out in tears because I had. I was like, why are they thanking me? Like I see all that history. There's.

[Brent Tucker]

Yeah.

[Travis Horning]

And it's mind blowing.

[Brent Tucker]

I'm on, I'm on a. I'm on a mission. Ever since I got an opportunity to interview that guy and I've been very fortunate to get to interview amazing men like yourself. But I want to interview him and I'm going to find. I want to find a Korean war veteran as well. When we have to, we have to capture this knowledge and we have to capture these stories.

[Travis Horning]

Yeah.

[Brent Tucker]

Before.

[Travis Horning]

Before it's too late that those dudes are awesome. And my right after basic training, the first place I went was Korea for a year.

[Brent Tucker]

Was it really?

[Travis Horning]

And after living there for a year, I don't know how those guys did it. The terrain, the weather. I've never. That's the hottest, the coldest, the wettest I have ever been in my life. I don't know how they did it.

[Brent Tucker]

I never went to Korea. I've never heard good things about Korea, at least from, from that aspect. Like it's.

[Travis Horning]

It.

[Brent Tucker]

It is. And it's called the forgotten war for a reason and I would love to hear that story. But for right now we want to hear your story. Appreciate the history lesson and looking into the jets and before we get to. To more recent activities of the Jeds, I want to dig into your story just a little bit here at the Tier One podcast. We're excited to have tasty gains as a sponsor. A company with values that aligns with ours. I take their products every day, three times a day. And if it wasn't a product that I didn't take personally and believe in and a company with integrity, then they wouldn't be sponsors on this show. Creatine helps the body produce more ATP, which is an energy Molecule that your entire body runs on. It helps improve your physical and mental performance in all aspects of life. Let's be honest, creatine powder sucks to take every day. With the creatine gummies, you can take them with you anywhere, and they taste great. Every batch is third party tested, so you know you're getting exactly what you pay for. Go to tastygains.com and enter the promo code, tier one. That's T I E R, the number one. And get 20% off your order. When did you join? What was your first job?

[Travis Horning]

Okay, so I deployed. I joined February 10, 2004. Joined the army as a combat engineer, Went to basic training at Fort Leonardwood. And it's funny. My dad took me to maps. And when he. When we were there, he's like, travis, I don't care what you do, just don't go Special Forces like, dad, you're crazy. No, I'm gonna go be an engineer.

[Brent Tucker]

Right? Why would you say that? Do you know why he would say that?

[Travis Horning]

He was just worried about me. You know, I'm the son, his oldest boy, and he's like, I know. He's like, travis, I know you don't do it.

[Brent Tucker]

Oh, the irony. Yeah.

[Travis Horning]

And at the time, I just discounted it. Right. I was like, that's not gonna happen.

[Brent Tucker]

I know. Yeah. And same thing for me. I mean, outside of people who specifically go there as. As 18, x rays, special Forces just seems, you know, almost like a myth. It seems like you don't see a lot of. Unless you're in particular bases, you don't see a lot of Green Berets. People tell stories that are probably inflated of the time they ran into Green Berets overseas, and it just becomes this real mythical thing. So I get that. It wasn't on my radar when I. When I joined either. When. How long did it take before you ignored your dad's advice and started thinking about Special Forces?

[Travis Horning]

Well, really, after my first deployment.

[Brent Tucker]

Okay.

[Travis Horning]

So like I said, I was a combat engineer and deployed to Baghdad 0506. IEDs were huge, and our battalion was tasked with rock clearance. And so driving five mile an hour down the road, staring out a window, looking for bombs.

[Brent Tucker]

Yeah.

[Travis Horning]

And sometimes a lot of time, they found us, you know.

[Brent Tucker]

Yeah.

[Travis Horning]

Blowing up in your face. But we got to be really good at it. But anyway, we'd be doing that at night and all lit up, and then I would see, you know, four, five, six Humvees go blowing past us. Yeah. Dudes hanging off the tailgate beards, night Vision on their way to do something right. And I'm like, I'm in the wrong business.

[Brent Tucker]

Yeah. Had you been to sapper school yet at that time?

[Travis Horning]

No.

[Brent Tucker]

Okay, was. I'm assuming you did before you went to the Q course, correct?

[Travis Horning]

Yeah. So I came back from that deployment fully invigorated.

[Brent Tucker]

Yeah.

[Travis Horning]

And so decided my plan was to work my way up. And so I went to sapper school and ranger school, both in the same year. And then once I finished Ranger school, I wanted to put in an SF packet to go to selection. And at this point, whenever I was a squad leader and my first arm asked me to hold off, he's like, we have a 15 month deployment coming up. You have experience. I need you to stay run your squad. I'll give you anything you want. And I was like, anything.

[Brent Tucker]

A selection date and besides that.

[Travis Horning]

And he was like, yeah, anything. I was like, I want sniper school. And he's like, done. Well, I got a slot.

[Brent Tucker]

Okay.

[Travis Horning]

But then I got orders for bnoc, which canceled that. And then we got Stop Loss, which canceled that.

[Brent Tucker]

Yeah. So I didn't get any of them, but.

[Travis Horning]

But it was still one of my favorite trips. Is going on that second deployment as a squad leader. That was a good experience.

[Brent Tucker]

Where did you go? Back to Baghdad.

[Travis Horning]

It was in diala province from 0809.

[Brent Tucker]

Okay. I really want to talk about sapper school. You'd be the first graduate of sapper school that we've had on. And I think most people have heard about it and I don't think anyone knows anything about it, including really, including me. I'd give you my best guess at it and I'd probably be half right and half wrong. But before we get on that story to something that was really unique was you did sapper school and ranger school in the same year. Correct. I'm not sure what's wrong with you, but I'm really glad you said that and I'm sure you're really glad you did that because people ask me for advice sometimes and said when they when should I go to this? When should I go to that? And my answer is always, as soon as you can.

[Travis Horning]

Yep.

[Brent Tucker]

And you know, we talk about all the time. We've talked about it in our careers too. Those opportunities aren't always there. They're windows. And you don't know when the window starts sometimes. And sometimes you're in the window. So you know it starts, but you don't know when it ends. Something always comes up. I love how you took advantage of that and you're like, I'll just, I'll do everything I can as soon as I can. Yeah. Real quick question we're getting into. Which one was harder, sapper school or ranger school?

[Travis Horning]

Sapper school was harder. Ranger school sucked more.

[Brent Tucker]

Okay, I'll take that. Answer the.

[Travis Horning]

And what I mean is Sapper School's 28 days long. Ranger School is 62 days long. Sapper school is basically a conglomeration of every army school out there. So not only all your engineer tasks, demolition and all that stuff, but there's Pathfinder, Air assault, airborne mountain, and then patrolling.

[Brent Tucker]

Yeah.

[Travis Horning]

Which is the ranger part of it, Right.

[Brent Tucker]

Man, they really pack it in there.

[Travis Horning]

Yeah. And it. So, yeah, I mean, I had to like mountaineering stuff. I had to memorize 14 different knots, state the checkpoints and purpose, tie the knot in two minutes for each one of them. Like in ranger school, you got to do like three square knot bowline. That's about it.

[Brent Tucker]

Yeah. I don't judge me. I, I couldn't tie a bowline right now. If you ask me.

[Travis Horning]

I bet you could.

[Brent Tucker]

The rabbit goes around the tree in the hole. I got it. It takes me a couple different methods to. There's a. I have a cowboy hat method. I have the, the rabbit around the tree method. Anyone who's inside a bologna before knows exactly what I'm talking about.

[Travis Horning]

If you can't tie knot, tie a lot.

[Brent Tucker]

That's right. If you can't tie a knot, tie a lot. That has got me through so much in life. Unfortunately, the schools I've been to, they've never accepted that. They always wanted to see particular dots.

[Travis Horning]

Yeah.

[Brent Tucker]

Oh, walk me through the, the phases of, of sapper schools. Is it broken down phases?

[Travis Horning]

Yeah, it's two phases. There's general subjects phase where it's all your demo calculations, learning all the knots, combatives, level one air ops. So we, we do helocasting into the lake, Poncho raft and swim all your gates. So 12 miler, which is still the hardest 12 mile I've ever done in my life, and land navigation, all that stuff, it's crammed into those two weeks. And that's what makes it so hard is it's, it's so much brain power that you have to use on little sleep crammed into those two weeks and you have to pass all of it.

[Brent Tucker]

Yeah. We probably missed a step because I assume people know what a sapper was or have heard of sapper school. But in case, in case they haven't, what is a sapper?

[Travis Horning]

So a Sapper is a, is a combat engineer that is in charge of mobility, counter mobility and survivability. So to boil that down, basically destroying and installing obstacles. So destroying enemy obstacles and in placing friendly obstacles for tank warfare, trench warfare, all that type of stuff.

[Brent Tucker]

Combat's funny and in this aspect it's changed so much from what we've been through to what we'll call modern combat. But at the same time, there's always something that carries over. You still have to know the basics and it never completely evolves. Was there anything in your, that you can think of from your sapper training that it traces all the way back to the Continental army of the late 1700s to now that you have seen used and in your 10 combat deployments?

[Travis Horning]

I mean, obstacles, it's a very generic term, but it is on every battlefield in the Iraq and Afghanistan days or even Syria. That obstacle was IEDs. Back then it was logs and just to stop carriages or whatever, you know, resupply lines.

[Brent Tucker]

Yeah.

[Travis Horning]

So our job as the sappers was to control the lines of communication.

[Brent Tucker]

Yeah, I remember us being in Syria and that was something that I hadn't seen before because in Iraq, Afghanistan, it was more of a counterinsurgency. So we're not going to take out bridges and roads because we don't want to piss off the locals. Everyone has to use that. So that's not a time to install an obstacle. But I remember us being in Syria and taking out certain roads and certain bridges to deny them movement and in place obstacles with that same, that same TTP of back then, but using it in a current form by, by doing it with, with bombs from 20,000ft to say, hey, take away this roadway right here. Yep, it's, it's real interesting in that aspect. So you went to sapper school first. Did you get a long enough break to go to. Did you know you were going to Ranger school after that? That just kind of fall on your plate? Like, yeah, sure, take that too.

[Travis Horning]

That was my plan. But it, it was up to the unit to get me a slot.

[Brent Tucker]

Okay.

[Travis Horning]

As a young E5 and, and that was kind of the, as an engineer, if you wanted a Ranger slot, you had to do sapper first.

[Brent Tucker]

Okay.

[Travis Horning]

Like they weren't going to waste a ranger slot, which is harder to get.

[Brent Tucker]

Was there any animosity to you? And that's a maybe a funny question to some people out on the outside, but I've seen it before where one guy comes in and he knocks this out, he knocks that out and he's A younger guy, like, you're giving him all the schools or why is, you know, why is he getting special treatment? Because. Well, for obvious reasons, from the. From higher, looking down. Because he's proven himself. Yeah, but guys behind you, did you ever feel anything like that?

[Travis Horning]

No, because, I mean, they couldn't argue it. So actually, what it all started with was at that time, I had the highest PT score in the battalion. Okay, you tell them that guy that, no, he can't go to cyber school, right?

[Brent Tucker]

Yeah. You don't like it, beat him. Yeah. Oh, you can't beat them. Suck it up. Yeah, I love that mentality.

[Travis Horning]

And, like, I did everything I could, like, during that first deployment. Like I said, it was a year long, so. And it was regular army, so we. We did boards and stuff like that. Competed for soldier, a brigade, soldier of the year. And like, I was kind of a board baby. I got promoted quite three times. That. That one trip I went there as a PFC, came back in E5.

[Brent Tucker]

That's crazy. Yeah, but you, like you said, you. You put it in. You deserved it. When you got back from that trip, that's what they asked you to do. They said, stick with us, one more trip. We need you.

[Travis Horning]

Yes.

[Brent Tucker]

And. And you fulfilled that. Did they give you any flack when you continued to do what you said you were going to do, which was continue to try to move on with your military career?

[Travis Horning]

Yeah, I mean, it was kind of a little of both. So, like, there were certain leaders that I had that were not happy about it. They thought that I should follow their footsteps and go be a drill sergeant or something like that. But others that. That really supported it. And also I took it upon myself in Kuwait on my way back to go to the. The SF recruiter and sign my volunteer statement.

[Brent Tucker]

It's not wasting time.

[Travis Horning]

I'm not. I'm not. Because I was also a senior E6 at that point, or getting close to it. And I was at risk on getting DA selected for drill sergeant.

[Brent Tucker]

Correct.

[Travis Horning]

And I was like, nope,

[Brent Tucker]

you end up getting a slot to go to SFAs. Do you know how long it took between. You put in your volunteer statement. Did you say in Kuwait? And when you actually got how long it took you to go to selection?

[Travis Horning]

I think somewhere between four and six months. It wasn't long. It was long enough for me to train up.

[Brent Tucker]

They give you time to train up? Yeah.

[Travis Horning]

I mean, yeah. Yeah, they did. They didn't fight it. And.

[Brent Tucker]

Right.

[Travis Horning]

Even though they didn't like the decision, they didn't want Me to fail or like certain people didn't like. But the majority of people were very supportive of it.

[Brent Tucker]

Yeah. So when, when you went there, did you. Did you guys have anyone else from the company or battalion that you know of that had gone to selection?

[Travis Horning]

There was a few guys that had went before and I believe got selection and, or got selected that I knew, but they weren't necessarily in the battalion. They. I believe they were like sapper instructors.

[Brent Tucker]

Okay.

[Travis Horning]

And ended up going to selection and getting selected and going to different groups and stuff.

[Brent Tucker]

That's something that makes it a little bit more of a, of a myth because when no one else has done it or worse, when a few people have done it and tried and they come back, it. It becomes this even more of a. Of a mythical thing that no one knows anything about. Yeah. Did you have any expectations going into it?

[Travis Horning]

Um, yes, but they were. I built everything up in my head.

[Brent Tucker]

Okay.

[Travis Horning]

It's going to be the worst thing ever. Right. The hardest thing ever. And it. And it was very difficult but doable.

[Brent Tucker]

Did you have any issues in selection, Land nav team events, Trek or you were challenged but. But you got through each one of them?

[Travis Horning]

Yep. Most of my challenges were injuries. So like an idiot, I messed up my ankle really bad. Like fractured my ankle before selection and then fractured my tibia during selection during the Star course and didn't tell anybody. Like my shin was so swelled up and like you push on it and the indent would just stay there. Like putting socks on was so painful.

[Brent Tucker]

How'd you hurt your ankle before selection?

[Travis Horning]

That's where I was saying I was an idiot. We were. Had to do something on the parade field and I come running out there and see a buddy of mine and I, I go to like jump and do a hug, jump, hug type thing and it scares him and he pushes me and I go straight down on him. It almost made me throw up and it just instantly swelled up. I was like, this isn't good.

[Brent Tucker]

How. How long before selection was that?

[Travis Horning]

Like a week?

[Brent Tucker]

No way.

[Travis Horning]

Yeah.

[Brent Tucker]

Yeah. So you're. Now you're.

[Travis Horning]

But I wasn't.

[Brent Tucker]

Yeah. Yeah. I. That one. I would understand that. That's got to be a very difficult decision. It may not have been a difficult decision for you because you're hard headed.

[Travis Horning]

Yeah.

[Brent Tucker]

But it. Maybe it should have been a harder decision for you than it was.

[Travis Horning]

Correct. Yeah.

[Brent Tucker]

But. But you made it.

[Travis Horning]

Yeah. I think it was 23 at the time.

[Brent Tucker]

Yeah. It cost even more. I'm sure the ankle injury fed into the leg injury. Did that happen at the very end of selection?

[Travis Horning]

It was during the Star course.

[Brent Tucker]

During the Star course, yep. So you still had to do team week and the trek on that hurt leg.

[Travis Horning]

Yeah.

[Brent Tucker]

Gosh, I'm sure you remember how miserable that was.

[Travis Horning]

So I remember at the end when it's officially over and you're all standing there in formation and the cadre are standing there like, all right, if I call your name, go stand over here. And if I don't, then you stay where you're at. Whatever called names. And I didn't know what was what. I couldn't tell, you know. Right. Because there was guys I thought would pass in both sides.

[Brent Tucker]

Right.

[Travis Horning]

And I was like, man, which one am I in? And finally they said, if you're standing here, you got. Congratulations, you're selected. Does anybody need to see a doctor? And I was like.

[Brent Tucker]

Immediately I was like, yes, please, stat.

[Travis Horning]

Yeah. I felt like somebody took a ball peen hammer to the bottom of my feet.

[Brent Tucker]

That. That story is going to make mine sound so unmanly because my biggest concern but. But is. It's not just mine, it's everyone's. But my biggest concern was getting a. A blister or a hot spot because as you know, once it starts, there is no recovery time and it only gets worse. And I remember seeing people that didn't come to selection with their feet in a condition they needed and people literally cutting their boots apart to keep that section of their boot off, that blister, and those blisters just getting worse and worse and worse by the day. That's just. That was my biggest concern yet. There you are with essentially a broken leg finishing it.

[Travis Horning]

But like, I mean, I'm sure you can relate to and all three of those things when you're there by yourself doing hard stuff. Like, in my mind, I was like, there's no way I am going back to my unit of failure.

[Brent Tucker]

First thing I said, that's. That's what got me through.

[Travis Horning]

Not gonna happen.

[Brent Tucker]

Not going back to my unit and anything other than selected.

[Travis Horning]

Yep.

[Brent Tucker]

Were there like residual consequences and effects of that injury that. That, that kept you from going to phase two or.

[Travis Horning]

No. Luckily I was young, so, I mean, I. And I was smart enough to know that it's over and do what I had to do to take care of myself and get myself back into it because I knew it wasn't over and just take an easy. Allow my body to heal. Yeah.

[Brent Tucker]

We've talked a lot about the Q course several times on this episode, so I apologize for for any first time listeners. But maybe that'll encourage you to go look at, look at past episodes because there's a lot of other things that, that, that I want to talk to you about. If you've ever been to any of my tactical training classes, then you know how adamant I am about the use of white light and the importance of a quality high powered tactical light. That's why I use cloud defensive tack lights. You can't hit what you can't see and neither can the bad guys. Clearly identify your target and simultaneously overwhelm his vision with hundreds and even thousands of lumens. Get serious about defending yourself and your family. Go to clouddefensive.com and use promo code tier one to get 30% off your order. That's right, 30%. You won't find a better light than this and you won't find a better deal than this. First and foremost, if, if people don't know and this, this will make other groups mad. But at, but deep down they, they know as well. Fifth group is a very powerful name within Special Forces. I mean, it is, I mean it's, it's with the war on Terror. It is the group. They started the invasion in Afghanistan. They did the invasion of Iraq. I know they didn't do Iraq alone, but fifth group did carry its fair share and maybe a little bit more than other special forces groups during the war. That's not diminishing. What other special. They did amazing things. But there was something special about Fifth Group during the war on Terror. When you got assigned to go there, what were your thoughts?

[Travis Horning]

Well, actually, so if you remember in the Q course, they, they give you a card and say, put down your. What groups you want to go to. Your wish list.

[Brent Tucker]

Right.

[Travis Horning]

I just put fifth group. Fifth group. Fifth Group. And I was. So to answer your question, I was like, good. I got what I wanted.

[Brent Tucker]

Yeah, yeah, that's. I've, I've actually never heard of anyone doing that. Yeah, I love that. Y and you got what you wanted. Y and Fifth group's great because it's, I feel like usually you have to pick one or the other. You can have a good location and a bad job or a bad job in a good location. And Fifth group is, is, is one of the few where you can get both. Everyone that goes to Fort Campbell and at fifth group generally enjoys that. Enjoys that area and enjoys the job.

[Travis Horning]

Yeah.

[Brent Tucker]

Is that, did the area have anything to do with why you want to go to fifth group? Fifth?

[Travis Horning]

No. I just, I knew Fifth group owned the Middle east, like based on the regional alignments of all the groups and that's where I wanted to go.

[Brent Tucker]

What was the first ODA that you went to?

[Travis Horning]

So the first ODA I went to was 5112 which was in a 15. The SIF company was there for about

[Brent Tucker]

a year and a half and then, then after that then I went to

[Travis Horning]

the Bravo Company, 1st Battalion 5126. And that's where I spent quite a bit of time before going over to the jets. And had I not made that transition to Bravo Company, I probably never would have had my Afghanistan deployment, which is still one of my top three favorite deployments.

[Brent Tucker]

What year was that deployment?

[Travis Horning]

2014 in Mazar Sharif Mez.

[Brent Tucker]

I was, I was there during that same time. Really? Yeah, 2014 out of Mez. That's where we're operating at when, when I got shot.

[Travis Horning]

Oh yeah, yeah.

[Brent Tucker]

Fun fact about, about Mez and kind of in general, I don't know if this pertained to you guys as well, but the north was really a, an under, how do I say this? It was a just somewhat under patrolled and under investigated place because the hotspots were, were in other countries. The east was always a hot spot, the south was a hot spot. And when we started looking at the north, it seemed like it was fairly desolate target wise on the surface when you started, but when you started digging in you, you find out was this was the place they were the headquarters was. This is the place if they, if it was too cold and they weren't going to go across the mountain and refit over at Pakistan, they would, they would come, they would come north and refit there and that the north ended up being a very, very active spot for us.

[Travis Horning]

Oh yeah.

[Brent Tucker]

And it didn't seem like it on the surface and at the beginning and

[Travis Horning]

if I remember right because of the time and it was in the war and how things were, you know, kind of drawn down and we were tied to the golden hour, which is, you know, the, the distance that we can travel and get a casualty out within that one hour window.

[Brent Tucker]

Right.

[Travis Horning]

And so early in the trip a lot of the targets that we were hitting were dry holes and we're like something's off here. And we like our, the team level threes and 18 foxes, they, they started digging into it and found where they were and it was just outside of that window. And we figured out a fix for it. And I forget what they're called but we, we used basically a jump med station.

[Brent Tucker]

Okay.

[Travis Horning]

The. So, so teams. Yep. And we're doing a lot of operations up in Kundu and that's where it got fun.

[Brent Tucker]

Yeah. There are some military units out there that would just sit there and go, well, there's nothing we can do about it.

[Travis Horning]

The team that we replaced, they just hit dry hole after dry hole.

[Brent Tucker]

Yeah.

[Travis Horning]

Like this sucks.

[Brent Tucker]

You know, that's, that's a good point too. Not all special forces teams are the same. And it's not, that's just not within SF. You know, I found that within working with SEALs, within, you know, working with SF, working with, with different ranger companies, you know, there's, there's a culture, you know, that each one of them has a culture. That's generally true. But then there's always the individual or the team aspect. And some are a lot more aggressive, some are more risk adverse, some were a lot more thoughtful and they way they went about things, others just wanted to crush things. And it was just, it was just really unique to see that.

[Travis Horning]

Yeah, that, that team that I was with in Afghanistan was probably one of the best teams I've ever been part of.

[Brent Tucker]

I think the, the. Yeah. And the best teams are the ones who will try to, who will deal, who will do both. They will try to outsmart a problem, yet they also have no problem just going right to the X and smashing things at the same time when, when need be. And it's, it's hard to find that balance. But every now and again you get a team that can do both and those are fun teams to be a part of.

[Travis Horning]

Yeah.

[Brent Tucker]

And they're fun teams to grow up in. You get, you get to learn what right looks like.

[Travis Horning]

Yep.

[Brent Tucker]

When the Jedburghs start to come back around in sf, did you guys hear through the, through the rumor mill that hey, SF's looking to start up new teams? Jedburgs. How'd that come about?

[Travis Horning]

Yeah, so I, you know, rumors spread like wildfire and it, but there's never any details. So I heard it coming. We came back from that trip and it was actually my team sergeant that decided to go over there and try it out. He was at the end of his team starting time and on the oda, so he went over there and did that. I ended up taking over the team for a bit and after he was there for a little bit, he was like, hey Travis, you should come do this. And that specific guy, jt, he was a huge part of my career. I mean, he was my Robin Sage instructor and then my team sergeant for a long time. And then I followed him over to the Jeds and then was my team sergeant there and then I took over. I just kept following him and replacing him and huge part of my career.

[Brent Tucker]

Of course I remember JT because that's. You were on his team when, when I met you and in Syria.

[Travis Horning]

Yep.

[Brent Tucker]

So we talked about the, the history of Jeds and, and what they, and when they did, when the Jedburg teams got stood back up, what, what was, what was the size of them, what was their purpose? Do you feel like it's, it's an honest question. Sometimes things get rolled out well, sometimes they don't. Did you feel like they had a, a clear goal and it was rolled out very well.

[Travis Horning]

Well, so there's still three man teams, which was always kind of weird to me because I always thought four would be better because then you have the ability to split.

[Brent Tucker]

Right.

[Travis Horning]

But that's what we stuck to. Except you know, as opposed to the, the version In World War II, you know, it was all American.

[Brent Tucker]

Right.

[Travis Horning]

And first SFC rolled it back out in 2014 and then. But it wasn't very standardized. It just said hey, do this. And every group did their own way. Which is kind of necessary because we all have different AORs.

[Brent Tucker]

Right.

[Travis Horning]

Or areas of responsibility. What fifth group jets do in the Middle east is not going to be the same thing that 10th group jets do in Europe.

[Brent Tucker]

Right.

[Travis Horning]

But we did. There was a standardized process. You know, so in order to get into the Jedburgh's, it was you hand selected by the group commander. You had to go to a formal board, you had to be a senior guy with a few deployments under your belt. And that's what it is, is a small team because it's, you're still doing what 12 people do. And so you, we don't send anybody there. You know, first you have to have some time on an ODA and understand what an ODA does because the reason they brought it back was I think really after lessons learned from Afghanistan. There was an obvious gap of where the agency ended and the ODA began. And that's what we were designed to fill.

[Brent Tucker]

Okay. I remember there was a large or a heavy, heavy weight on the language aspect of it, which SF always has been to some degree. But the Jeds, the Jets seem to have a higher standard when it came to language. Did it have to be a 2 2. Is there a language barrier that they were requiring as well?

[Travis Horning]

Yes, that was the goal. And, and a lot of the guys within at least the fifth group Jeds had very high language abilities. I did Not. But also my language was French, so I never really got to use mine.

[Brent Tucker]

Right.

[Travis Horning]

But I mean, there was guys on my team that spoke basically fluently 6, 7, 8 different dialects of Arabic and could go anywhere and do anything without an interpreter.

[Brent Tucker]

I will never forget it. It seems so simple maybe to, to some people, but

[Travis Horning]

Dave, yes.

[Brent Tucker]

Dave was on a neighboring JED team, if I remember right. Correct. And they were also working with us. And me and you were standing up a team, a specialized team, and we were going to give them a medical class. And Dave was an 18 Delta and asked Dave if he would give the class. He goes, sure, I'll give the class. I said, okay, this is, this is the day the class will be here. Now I assumed because it's a medical class, you have very deep medical class. There's a lot of, a lot of words that he would be giving in English that I wouldn't know. So I made sure our best interpreter was there because he was going to have a bunch of medical terms he was going to have to say. And I remember asking him, yeah, I asked him, but it was more of an assumption like, hey, do you need the terp? Of course you need the terp. He's like, no, I don't need the terp. I was like, oh, like, well, you know, I needed like a, like I intended to have like a really in depth class, you know, to do this. He's like, yeah, I know what you want. It's like, you don't need the terp. He goes, no. I said, well, I'll have him in the, in the back of the class if you ever need them. He goes, no, he can leave. I got this. And I, and I watched Dave for hours and hours on and speak perfect Arabic to these guys and never have one of them say what? Can you say that again? Can you say it differently? I never saw him stop once and go, oh man, how do you say this in Arabic? It was one of the most impressive things I've ever seen from a Green Beret.

[Travis Horning]

He loves language and medicine as much as I love explosives.

[Brent Tucker]

Yeah, that says something. Yeah, really puts it in perspective.

[Travis Horning]

I mean, he is a savant.

[Brent Tucker]

It's, it's, it's always a running joke and an SF to be hard on our officers or any office. It's, it's a military wide thing. And let me tell you, your guys's officers that, that came over were also really, really good dudes.

[Travis Horning]

Yes.

[Brent Tucker]

I mean, I saw him give. It's, I've never seen an ODA commander Give a, a foreign weapon class in my life and I saw Jedburgh officers do that, do it at a high level. It just brought a lot of respect to what you guys did. The capability guys came over and filled truly was, was something we, we couldn't do. Yeah, I don't, I don't mean this in a. In a bad way because as, as you know, I'm a proud Green Beret. I have a lot of respect for ODAs, but to some degree the way the Jedbirds acted, how senior they were, like they're, they're just really in depth knowledge was kind of how I thought all ODAs were. But it's really. The Jedburgh's really held that standard a little bit more.

[Travis Horning]

Yeah and a lot of it's out of necessity. I mean you're trying, like I said, doing 12 guys job with three guys. So a normal SF team has you know, a Bravo, a Charlie, a Delta and Echo or the main four Moses plus the 18 fox intelligence, the warrant officer, the team sergeant and then the officer. You get three guys, you know, you may not have a Delta. So that, I mean that was another thing. Part of our pipeline is they created a higher level medical course for us to go through that. Coming out of that I had way more confidence than I did ever coming out any T. TRIC or whatever, like EMT certified, doing blood transfusions in the field, you know, stuff like that.

[Brent Tucker]

I don't know if you remember this, but we were talking about doing some harassment missions and really ensuring the FLOT was a. Was a unique place. I used to kind of call it a bankers war at times because neither the Kurds or ISIS had had night vision. So for the most part the war kind of went nine to five. And it was our job to make sure that at night they no longer felt safe. And we were coming up with ideas and you had some great ideas and even going well that's a great idea. Can you do that? Yeah, I can do that. Have you done it before? Yeah, I've done it before I believe. Was IT laws or AT4s you were taking apart and putting them on a timer? Just things like demo ambush, some really some MacGyver stuff. Some true MacGyver stuff. I was like that's a great idea. It's not our forte, it's not the unit's forte. True unconventional warfare, we may have that in our past, but it doesn't mean that's our focus. And it was apparent that was your guys's.

[Travis Horning]

I mean that's the. When you Give a Green Beret or the ability to experiment and do things that are truly outside of the box, man, the things that people can come up with is mind blowing.

[Brent Tucker]

Yeah, it's fun. Some of the stuff that I remember when, when we met you, we're basically like, what. What are you guys doing here? And you're like, well, we're just. We're figuring it out. And Anders, who's. Who's no longer with us, one of the greatest. One. One of the greatest operators I've ever met in my life. One of the greatest Green Berets I've ever met in my life. He was a great man, but always a pioneer, always a visionary, always had ideas. And he was like, you want a job? You want to come work with us? You're like, hell, yeah, we do. And, and, and you guys came and, and got in where you fit in, and it was, it was, it really was a capability we were lacking. We were also lacking manpower. And even though it was just three you guys, there wasn't many of us either. Yeah. And everywhere we needed you guys, you could, you could plug in. Yeah. I remember going out on the flat with you and doing long distance shooting with you, doing unconventional warfare stuff with you, training an indigenous force with you. We could not have got done what we got done that trip without you guys.

[Travis Horning]

Yeah. And that trip specifically was probably the, I guess, most Green Beret trip I've ever done, because it was for me, essentially Robin Sage. We started in Iraq, infilled into Syria, built a base camp, linked up with our partner force, started training them, building them, organizing them, equipping them, and then going out and executing operations.

[Brent Tucker]

Yeah, it was, it was a. It was a really cool time. It's what everyone wants to be at the beginning of something before all the rules come in.

[Travis Horning]

Yeah.

[Brent Tucker]

Yeah. And we. And we finally got to do that. And in Syria, I, If, If I'd have had my way, I. I'd have made it. I'd have made it mandatory that you guys came with us on our next trip too. I mean, that's, that's, that's how much. That's how much we appreciated you guys and, and looked up. Looked up to you guys because of that particular skill set that you guys had that was really unique. And it's kind of. To go back. It was a particular skill set that they, they brought in World War II. And I love that Special Forces did not forget its history and said, we actually did something like this before and brought it back, but brought it back with a With a more modern twist to it. Yeah, but it was needed. God, it was needed. After you left us in Syria, where'd you end up going?

[Travis Horning]

So I stayed in the jets for and did three more trips to Yemen and working on that problem set until I eventually got promoted and then stepped into the SAR major seat.

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[Brent Tucker]

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[Travis Horning]

Yeah.

[Brent Tucker]

We were very scenes.

[Travis Horning]

You brought that up.

[Brent Tucker]

We were very senior E7s.

[Travis Horning]

Yeah.

[Brent Tucker]

Together in Syria and we could not make it.

[Travis Horning]

We were both on the same promotion list and we had a running joke. Forever sevens.

[Brent Tucker]

Forever seven.

[Travis Horning]

I think it took 18 months for me to pin or something like that.

[Brent Tucker]

Yeah, that's right. We had made that. We had made the list.

[Travis Horning]

Yeah.

[Brent Tucker]

And normally when you make the list within 12 months, if. If it's not. If not if your number hasn't come up, they exhaust the list.

[Travis Horning]

Yep.

[Brent Tucker]

And for some reason they did not do that. Yeah. And every month we're waiting to like, it's gonna.

[Travis Horning]

It's gonna happen.

[Brent Tucker]

It's gonna be that. Speaking of the original Jedbergs and current ones, the original ones had one of the coolest mottos of all the special operations. You remember what it is?

[Travis Horning]

Surprise kill, vanish.

[Brent Tucker]

Surprise, kill, vanish. Skv. Yep. That's. I can't believe that's not on T shirts. There's a book about it. Yeah, right. Surprise, kill, vanish. I think that's. That's better than speed. Surprise, violence of action. I love that. And you guys take that motto with you to the current one as well.

[Travis Horning]

Oh, yeah.

[Brent Tucker]

You're not gonna do a better one than that. No.

[Travis Horning]

And within the jets, I mean, we tried doing a lot of things that was kind of looked at weirdly so. You know, all the Odas, they go by team numbers. Well, the original jet teams all had names, so. And they were odd names, so, like Ephedrine, Ivor James, these weird different names. And we found the list of all those names, and then within our troop, we had three teams. Three. Three man teams. And we adopted one of the names for each team, and we started putting that on Con Ops and all kinds of stuff. And officers looked like, who is Team Ephedrine?

[Brent Tucker]

Speaking of, some of the James Bond stuff you would do. I. I actually have it in the garage. I'll show it to you after this episode when we have cigars. The. You made me. What. What do you use as a. As a coaster? I'm not sure what is originally. Do you know what I'm talking about already? Do you remember doing that?

[Travis Horning]

I was wondering if you still have it.

[Brent Tucker]

I still have it. Since you know what it is. Tell them what it is and. And how you made that.

[Travis Horning]

So I like to play with demo.

[Brent Tucker]

And you still have all your fingers, so you're good at it.

[Travis Horning]

Yes. So what I took was a sheet of plate steel, and then I designed the logo for our troop. And I spent painstaking hours. I took duct tape and covered the top of the steel, made a stencil, traced our logo on it, took a razor blade and cut it all out, leaving only the logo there, and then laid sheet explosives over the top of

[Brent Tucker]

it

[Travis Horning]

and then detonated it. Well, because of the way that the pressure works and it all goes at the same time, and with that difference of thickness from the tape, it permanently etched that logo into the steel. And I made them one for everybody that was on that trip and gave it to them as coasters to take them home. I've got mine sitting on my desk at home right now.

[Brent Tucker]

We. Where'd you learn to do that?

[Travis Horning]

I saw it in another. I think it was neod. Navy OD guy. Okay, we'll edit that out.

[Brent Tucker]

We're not giving them credit.

[Travis Horning]

I saw. I saw it somewhere, and I was like, how did you do that? And he explained it to me, and I was like, oh, I'm doing that.

[Brent Tucker]

Yeah, The. The other thing. We have a picture of it. We'll. We'll put it up here.

[Travis Horning]

Okay.

[Brent Tucker]

One of. We did. We did a lot of projects. I hope I can find all the pictures. When. When you're first into Syria, you're. We built out the camp. Yeah.

[Travis Horning]

Put together a lot of bunk beds.

[Brent Tucker]

We put together a lot of beds. We put the gym together.

[Travis Horning]

Yes. That Was my pet project.

[Brent Tucker]

The. You were the gym commander, Correct. Proudly. I was essentially like the. The. My secondary job was. Was base commander. And. And so I gave all the SF guys, you know, that that were their jobs we had. And. And to make them cool, I called everyone a commander.

[Travis Horning]

Yes.

[Brent Tucker]

And so we had the vehicle commander, the gym commander, the fire pit commander, the fire. Fire pit commander. Who had to keep the fire pit going and keep the fire pit clean.

[Travis Horning]

Yeah.

[Brent Tucker]

Oh, man. Those. Those, those. Those were great. Gosh.

[Travis Horning]

And there's actually assigned duties. They were to. To all of those.

[Brent Tucker]

They were assigned duties. We built the. We're both out. I'm sure there's statute of limitations. It looked like a bar. It couldn't have been a bar because that. That wouldn't have been.

[Travis Horning]

It was a lounge.

[Brent Tucker]

That wouldn't have been. Correct. It was. It was a lounge.

[Travis Horning]

Mwr.

[Brent Tucker]

We called it the.

[Travis Horning]

The Green Beret Lounge.

[Brent Tucker]

The Green Beret Lounge. The Green Beret Club.

[Travis Horning]

I think it was the GB Lounge.

[Brent Tucker]

The GB lounge.

[Travis Horning]

Yep.

[Brent Tucker]

And granite countertops built the bar to that.

[Travis Horning]

LED lighting.

[Brent Tucker]

LED lighting. Oh yeah, exactly. Exactly what, what you'd want to post mission, go out there and hang out and talk and talk about it.

[Travis Horning]

There was other dudes in the area that would come work out at our

[Brent Tucker]

gym, specifically depending on who they were. I may not have liked that.

[Travis Horning]

Yeah, they tried.

[Brent Tucker]

They tried. Yeah. And some we'd let stay.

[Travis Horning]

Yeah.

[Brent Tucker]

We had a. A board of. Was it the board of manly feats? Yes. You remember what it was called?

[Travis Horning]

The feats of Manliness.

[Brent Tucker]

The feats of manliness. Yes. Talking about the feats of manliness. This is when you're overseas and. And you're doing these type of operations, you still have downtime. And that's of course what really what I remember the most.

[Travis Horning]

Yeah.

[Brent Tucker]

Is all the good times we had. What were the feats of manliness? We had.

[Travis Horning]

So there was a list of just a bunch of different tasks. So one, most dead hang pull ups, bench press. 135 for 100 reps. For time.

[Brent Tucker]

For time.

[Travis Horning]

Yep. Fastest speed that you can achieve on the curved treadmill.

[Brent Tucker]

Yep.

[Travis Horning]

Highest deadlift. Highest squat.

[Brent Tucker]

135 pound curls.

[Travis Horning]

Yes.

[Brent Tucker]

This I can't remember. I think. I think that might have been all of them. Can't remember anymore.

[Travis Horning]

No, there was a couple other like smaller ones, but that was essentially it. And. But in order to get on the board, it had to be observed by the gym commander.

[Brent Tucker]

By the gym commander. That is correct. Because I wasn't going to have people come in. Do CrossFit pull ups. I did 35 pull ups. No, you didn't. The 135 curl was another, was a very stringent one because strict curls, you could throw your body weight around on that and not be. And guys tried and you held the standard. And that's. And that's really why you were the gym commander, because I knew you would hold the standard with the feats of

[Travis Horning]

manliness, even sometimes I didn't want to.

[Brent Tucker]

I get it. Not to brag, but I held most of those records.

[Travis Horning]

Yes.

[Brent Tucker]

On there. And I don't know if you remember this. At the beginning, I sat back and I watched some guys put their name on the board first. So, so I knew what I, What I had to go after and when they would. They were just supposed to put their name on the board, but they added some, some extra info, and that was what group they were with. Because at the time we had some, we had some intel guys, some level threes from various groups that were, that were working for us. And so you'd see his name, you know what he did. And at the very end, 10 Special Forces Group, and we had guys from almost every group there. I mean, obviously the Jedi teams were only from fifth group, but the intel guys, we had guys from every group.

[Travis Horning]

Yeah.

[Brent Tucker]

And so on the board, you'd see 10th group, fifth group, seventh group, you know, all these different groups. And so when, when I went to remove their names from the board and add mine, do you remember what I did?

[Travis Horning]

No.

[Brent Tucker]

I put Brent Tucker and I put. What I did And I put 20th group.

[Travis Horning]

Oh, yeah.

[Brent Tucker]

And it upset some guys. And like, that is, that is, that's not right. You can't, you, you can't put. You're not from 20th Group. I, I'm, I absolutely am from 20th Group.

[Travis Horning]

Yeah.

[Brent Tucker]

And when you guys rotated out and the next Jedburghs came, I forgot that I had done that. And this guy walks into the gym and he looks at, he's looking at the, the feats of manliness, and he's like, who's this Brent Tucker guy? And I didn't even. 20th group is here.

[Travis Horning]

Who let them in?

[Brent Tucker]

Yeah. And some guy working out stands up and goes, no, no, no, he's not from 20th group. Brent, tell him you're not from 20th group. I am from 20th group. That hurt people's feelings, but that was, that was, that was fun. And, and, and full disclosure, the one that. I think I only lost one of them. There were some times we went back and forth and someone would beat me and I'd have to. To train just for that for weeks on end to reclaim it. But we had an Air Force 24 guy come in and take the pull ups away from me.

[Travis Horning]

And.

[Brent Tucker]

And he did it to a number that I knew I was not regaining that. And that's. That's what I heard the worst. And I remember being with you as he's doing them.

[Travis Horning]

That was where I learned my lesson. If you're gonna put a record up, make it so unattainable that nobody will ever even think about it.

[Brent Tucker]

Gosh. Oh, Eric. He's is. But it's. It's not fair. He was like a 170 pounds. He didn't have as much weight as we had to pull up. It was. He was made for that. Yeah, he was made for that. Anyway, he basically floated up. He basically did. There's. I. I really wanted to take a walk down memory lane on that. In fact, there's one more thing. We built a pulpit. Do you remember that?

[Travis Horning]

Oh, yes.

[Brent Tucker]

I had the woodworkers, the local woodworkers build us a pulpit. And. And what did we have on. On that pulpit?

[Travis Horning]

The Bible.

[Brent Tucker]

The swole Bible. The swole Bible.

[Travis Horning]

Yeah.

[Brent Tucker]

That was. That's a hilarious book, by the way. You guys don't know this.

[Travis Horning]

What?

[Brent Tucker]

The swole Bible is the most ridiculously written book ever.

[Travis Horning]

And then our Donald pump tank tops.

[Brent Tucker]

Oh, that's right. We had Donald pump. I forgot about that.

[Travis Horning]

Yeah. Yep.

[Brent Tucker]

Donald Trump had just become president during that.

[Travis Horning]

During that trip.

[Brent Tucker]

During that trip. And we all got Donald pump tank tops to wear the gym.

[Travis Horning]

You made sure everybody in camp knew.

[Brent Tucker]

Oh, do. Do you remember. Do you remember what happened the morning of. Of the. The election?

[Travis Horning]

Yeah.

[Brent Tucker]

Do you remember?

[Travis Horning]

Yeah.

[Brent Tucker]

Tell that story.

[Travis Horning]

Like so, like used. Everybody else went to bed. You stayed up and watched it, and it looked like he was gonna lose.

[Brent Tucker]

It did.

[Travis Horning]

And you're like, nope, I'm not giving up. Not giving up. We all kind of went to bed, and then next thing you know, Brent's running through the. In, through the entire camp yelling, we won.

[Brent Tucker]

Yeah.

[Travis Horning]

Beating on doors, beating on doors.

[Brent Tucker]

And so many people opened up. It's like, what. What are you on about? I was like, donald Trump won. And I do like messing with people. And this, this is another time in my life where I realized maybe I mess with people too much because people were literally closing the door and be like, no, we didn't. I don't have time for this. I'm going back to bed. I'm like, no, he really won. Sure he did, Brent. No one would believe me. It took like an hour before some people woke back up, checked their phones or got on the Internet, whatever it is they did, to find out and be like, oh, Donald, hey, did you guys know Donald Trump won? But yes, I told everyone that, but no one wanted to believe me.

[Travis Horning]

Yeah.

[Brent Tucker]

Oh, I for. I forgot about that, man. All right. Getting back to good times got me off course. You go back, you go to Syria for a guy who was forever seven, you end up, between the. The two of us, picking up sergeant major.

[Travis Horning]

I did.

[Brent Tucker]

What was your first job as sergeant major?

[Travis Horning]

Company sergeant major for in 2nd Battalion, Bravo Company, 2nd Battalion. Loved it.

[Brent Tucker]

Did you?

[Travis Horning]

Yes.

[Brent Tucker]

You grew up in 1st Battalion, though?

[Travis Horning]

Yep. Grew up in 1st Battalion and then moved to 4th Battalion for the Jeds and then stepped into the sergeant major seat in 2nd Battalion.

[Brent Tucker]

What was your favorite part about being a company sergeant major?

[Travis Horning]

So I think. And I think a lot of people agree the team sergeant is the best job, the one that everybody wants. Well, there's a lot of guys that didn't want to be a SAR Major. They didn't want anything because you're no longer tactical. You're not on a team anymore.

[Brent Tucker]

Right.

[Travis Horning]

Which at that point in my career, my body was deteriorating. I knew it was time to do something, but basically, the way I looked at it was a company sergeant major is just a team sergeant for team sergeants.

[Brent Tucker]

Right.

[Travis Horning]

And I approached it with that mindset.

[Brent Tucker]

Yeah.

[Travis Horning]

And, you know, I had six, seven team sergeants, counting the B team, that I was responsible to mentor and make sure that the teams had everything that they needed to be successful. And, like, at that point, I work for them.

[Brent Tucker]

I want to transition over to a little bit of. Of leadership talk. I won't. I won't make you say names, but did you have a favorite team sergeant?

[Travis Horning]

Yeah.

[Brent Tucker]

Did. Did you have a least favorite team sergeant there?

[Travis Horning]

I can't put my finger on one that I had some strong team sergeants and, like, top three.

[Brent Tucker]

Okay.

[Travis Horning]

And they were just a pleasure to. To be in that position for them.

[Brent Tucker]

Yeah.

[Travis Horning]

Receptive, hungry, Cared what I thought because I cared what they thought.

[Brent Tucker]

Yeah. Did you have a. Doesn't make him a weak team sergeant, but someone has to be the weakest or. But the truth is, it just may not have been someone that fits that. That bill that I'm describing. Did you have someone like that?

[Travis Horning]

Yeah, there was one that had to get fired, if that's what you're asking.

[Brent Tucker]

No, I wasn't asking if you Fired anyone?

[Travis Horning]

No.

[Brent Tucker]

No. Well, we're not. Unless you want to. I'm not cutting that out. Yeah. Or not. I'm not cutting it out. I'd rather not, because that, That's. That's the other part of leadership. It's. It's. It's easy to work with the guys that are hungry.

[Travis Horning]

Yeah.

[Brent Tucker]

To learn hungry. To. To work for their teams. Firing someone can't. Can't be fun.

[Travis Horning]

No. And. But, yeah. So even as a squad leader, like, I liked the challenges. As long as they were willing to listen or, you know, and were willing to get better. I'll take that all day.

[Brent Tucker]

Right. Did he lose the drive or is he just making bad decisions with that situation?

[Travis Horning]

Specifically? It kind of. It was towards the end of mine and my time as the company star major, but there was a leadership change. He wasn't quite ready for it. The team dynamic changed, and that's what really made it hard, is they didn't make it easy for him to be successful. Yeah.

[Brent Tucker]

You know, it's. I don't. I don't know how familiar you are with the. With the Eddie Gallagher story, but I've. I've seen it time and time again when, When Eddie was a. Essentially his version, their version of a team sergeant. And he had a very powerful. In a good way, too. I see the guy right below him and. And really, in my experience, that's the team sergeant sets the culture and does a lot, but that next in line, that next senior guy, he's really the shadow governor of the team. Correct. And he decides whether the team sergeant's culture gets implemented. If. If things are kosher between the team, if there's fights between the team. In a weird way, it's really that second guy in charge that. That bridges that. That gap, and that if he approves it, then the rest of the team follows through. And when you don't have that and you start seeing the infighting within a team, it's. It's really. It's really painful to be a part of. Luckily, I was never a part of one, but I'd seen that happen to. To a sister team, and it's tough to watch.

[Travis Horning]

Yeah.

[Brent Tucker]

Because there's so much. There's so much potential there that's just lost on. On cohesion, which seems like something silly to lose effectiveness over, but it's. There's no real way to get it back without shuffling personnel.

[Travis Horning]

Yeah. And it kills me to see because having, like, seen what a really cohesive team is capable of and what they could be capable of to see that it's frustrating to watch

[Brent Tucker]

more random questions because it happens. Did you have a, did you have a junior guy that was. It's, it's a little bit harder to say, yeah, the team sergeant because they were directly there. But when you're in that leadership position every now and again there's just a young guy that remind. Either reminds you of yourself or is just outgoing and you're like, that guy is going places.

[Travis Horning]

Yes.

[Brent Tucker]

And I'm helping go places.

[Travis Horning]

Absolutely. Yeah. I mean I had a handful of those guys. Some of the. As the company started major, whenever a new guy comes from the Q course and he gets assigned to your company, it's your job to place him wherever and depending on what their MOS is and all that will determine where they go. Well, I had to build a B team because it was basically non existent whenever I got there and I ended up having to put a lot of those new guys on the B team. I pulled some guys off of teams too to kind of balance the talent, but those are the guys that I spent most of the day to day with and watching those guys grow and then eventually go to A team and just kill it. Yeah, it was. Was awesome.

[Brent Tucker]

That's a great first trial for a guy who thinks he's going. Who thinks he's going to A team and finds out he's going to the B team right off the bat. And like anything else in life, it's. It's how you handle it.

[Travis Horning]

Yep.

[Brent Tucker]

And if you show up ready, doesn't matter. I'm just happy to be here. Whatever position you give me, I'll be the best at that position. Really shows that, that because you're a company sergeant major, you know that the next 10 or 15 years are going to go fast. And this one year to two years he's going to spend on a B team is nothing but really a great foundation that he's going to have before he goes to A team. And it's so easy to lose sight of that as a new guy and just come in with a bad attitude.

[Travis Horning]

Well, and there's also like behind the scenes aspect of it that they don't. No Greenberry coming out of the course wants to hear that they're not going to an A team, but the B team is very important and having that perspective of what all the B team does or doesn't do to enable the ODAs to accomplish the training and stuff that they need to do. School, slots, all of it, ammunition, everything.

[Brent Tucker]

Yeah.

[Travis Horning]

So then when you do go to an oda, you have that perspective.

[Brent Tucker]

That's a real good point, because not only do you get to understand what a B team does, you don't have a full understanding, but you have a better understanding of what the battalion does as well. Because usually when you're in a position, you know, one step below you, one step above you, but when you're a new guy on the team, there is no one below you.

[Travis Horning]

Yeah.

[Brent Tucker]

And the guy above you is your senior.

[Travis Horning]

Yep.

[Brent Tucker]

So you'll know a little bit what the. About what the B team does, but not. Not really directly. Like, you've. You're just in the vicinity, so you kind of figure it out. But if you get assigned to the B team now, you have exposure to battalion and having to work with them, having good approvals for them, what that. What that requires. You're the B team. You get to push information down and be a part of that. That whole system. Like I said, really build your network, man. There's something be said about a network too. Absolutely. There's. There. There are teams that get things done just because they know how to do it and they know who to go to to get it done.

[Travis Horning]

And that requires a network. And then the other aspect of it is they get to see the culture and personalities of all the other. All the ODAs. And that was the deal I made. Whenever you get done, tell me which team you want to go to.

[Brent Tucker]

That's a good deal, actually. That's a good deal.

[Travis Horning]

So then they weren't going in blind. Yeah, like, oh, I want to go to the HALO team, or I want to go to this. Because of this.

[Brent Tucker]

What, what you do after your company said, sergeant Major, time, what was your next position?

[Travis Horning]

So that time was short, shorter than I wanted it to be, but about two years. And then I got moved to battalion operations. So the. Between me and my officer counterpart in charge of all operations for the battalion

[Brent Tucker]

and for the listeners, to understand what. What that means is each company has six teams in it, and a battalion is. Has four companies. So I'm sorry, three companies underneath it. So you go from being in charge of six teams to essentially as the operation, you're. You're not. You're not the battalion Sergeant Major. But nothing runs without. Without operations like the operation Sergeant Major really runs those 18 teams now that are underneath you because they have to go to 3U first. It doesn't go straight to the sergeant Major.

[Travis Horning]

Yeah.

[Brent Tucker]

And the command Sergeant Major.

[Travis Horning]

So, like, perspective. Not that I did everything, but like, on deployment, I was responsible for all operations for about a thousand people spread across four countries. So like that's, that's a lot to keep tabs on.

[Brent Tucker]

Yeah.

[Travis Horning]

And making sure that they were all successful.

[Brent Tucker]

Was it eye opening to see how much a battalion can really affect and what a battalion really does? Because before that, as always, you only, you only know what you know and you see the piece of the pie that you see and you don't always get to see how they all either fit in together or how complicated this mission really is. But, but as the, what you just talked about is, is a lot. And maybe people understand why ops sergeant majors are cranky.

[Travis Horning]

Yes. I kind of like you. I, I try to have fun no matter where I'm at. Right. Because it is what you make it. But yeah, there's times that it's just so frustrating and, and most times it's not the teams that, that's, that's frustrating you.

[Brent Tucker]

Yeah.

[Travis Horning]

But yeah, trying to make things happen on that type of scale.

[Brent Tucker]

The. It, it's always fun to hear about the good things but, and no one gets credit usually for the good things. Especially in high performing organizations because when you do something really good, you're normally just met with. Yeah, that's what I, that's what I expect you to do. You don't get, you don't get atta boys for things. You're expected and that, and when there's high level of expect expectations, you're just meeting the standard. So on the opposite side of that though is when you have high expectations, when someone does something dumb, it's even more egregious because you're in a high performing organization. I'm gonna put you on the spot. But when there's 18 teams spread across four countries, there is something that came across your desk and you thought why'd they do that? Why am I dealing with this?

[Travis Horning]

Well, I guess the most memorable thing of that is reading ConOps.

[Brent Tucker]

Okay.

[Travis Horning]

So I'm reading these Con ops, they know what it's supposed to look like. Even though I don't agree with it. They know what it's supposed to look like, I know what it's supposed to look like. I've been in their shoes, right. And something comes across and I'm like, I know what you're trying to do here and they're trying to sneak something past me or whatever.

[Brent Tucker]

Right.

[Travis Horning]

And I'm just like, I gotta call the team sergeant or the company or the battalion. The. Yeah, the company's our major.

[Brent Tucker]

Yeah.

[Travis Horning]

Aob, SAR Major, I guess. And like, hey, and of course they're gonna fight for them. As they should.

[Brent Tucker]

As they should. If. If they're, if they're, if they're good bt, they will. Yep.

[Travis Horning]

And it's just a, a conversation that nobody wants to have. And I wish I could just say, yep, good to go.

[Brent Tucker]

Right. But you also can't pretend you don't know what, what you do know.

[Travis Horning]

Yes.

[Brent Tucker]

Yeah. That's it. That is funny. It's, it is unfortunate because you've been on the other side of that. You've tried to, you've tried to sneak things through, through battalion and, and rightfully so. You get frustrated that you're working under rules and guidelines that are perceived to be too stringent. And it's just, it's just easier to work in a gray area or say, say you're going on a presence patrol when you're really going on a raid.

[Travis Horning]

Yeah. And it shouldn't, shouldn't be surprised about it because that's what we're designed to do, is work in the grave.

[Brent Tucker]

I love that's how you handled it. Because so many people forget that they were on a team and they, they get this holier than thou attitude and like, how dare you, you know, try to sneak this by me.

[Travis Horning]

Yeah.

[Brent Tucker]

When really the attitude, it is a weird way. In a weird way should be nice try.

[Travis Horning]

Yeah.

[Brent Tucker]

Like, I, I actually appreciate the effort, you know, but if, but if you have an OP Sergeant Major that you can actually talk to, it's a good opportunity to say, tell me what you're trying to do. Tell me why you think you can't do it, and let's, and let's get to how you can do it.

[Travis Horning]

Yeah.

[Brent Tucker]

And I got to work with one OP Sergeant Major like that in my time at group. And he was a great man, Dan Kinkle. And he left his. He had one more deployment that he could have gone on as a team sergeant. And to show you the type of sacrifice this man gave, he left his team sergeant early because there was a position opened up at battalion Sergeant Major. He did not want to do it. He was, he wasn't a guy who's like, oh, there's. I can get rank here. I can get position here. He went there because his last two or three deployments before he had fought with battalion. And he said, on this trip, the boys aren't going to fight with battalion. I will go fill that position and the boys will get out the door as often as possible and I will make sure they do. And he really, he, he fell on that sword.

[Travis Horning]

Yeah. And if you have a good commander, he listens to his ops. Armager.

[Brent Tucker]

Yeah, I'm not an ops archer. Really? Does they. They people don't. They really run. They run the show. They run the show. A good. A good. A good ops Sergeant Major can get done whatever he really wants.

[Travis Horning]

And there's nothing more frustrating when dealing with somebody that is just looking for a reason to say no.

[Brent Tucker]

Yeah, it's the easy answer. Continue on. On leadership and you don't even have to say the. The position you were in at the time because deductive reasoning will get there. Did you ever have a bad counterpart or were you lucky enough to have a good counterpart everywhere you were?

[Travis Horning]

As far as like officer enlisted, Not counterpart. I mean, I had some bad officers,

[Brent Tucker]

but

[Travis Horning]

I was fortunate where like really all my immediate leadership was good. I don't know how. I've heard some horror stories and in all units, but yeah, you know, I'm

[Brent Tucker]

actually, I'm actually glad that's your answer. I mean, the, the other answer would. Would be more entertaining if you will, but it goes back to the. To who Fifth Group is who Special Forces really is. Yes, there's. There's always bad ones in every organization, but you know, the, the saying is that I'm just looking to. I'm just looking to work with fewer of them. And the fact that you got to go through all those positions and not truly have a bad counterpart really goes to the system and, and the process. And that we have a good process. And there's a reason why Green Berets and, and my. In my opinion, and I do. I do mean this holistically, there's other forces that are better at certain things, but Green Berets holistically are our nation's most lethal fighting force on, on any battlefield.

[Travis Horning]

Yeah, it.

[Brent Tucker]

I believe that.

[Travis Horning]

I mean, it's when an ODA is unshackled and you give them a mission. Hey, I need this done. Just tell me what you need. It's amazing. Afghanistan. We took over the entire country of Afghanistan, overthrew the Taliban in a matter of weeks with a handful of ODAs.

[Brent Tucker]

Yeah, yeah, that was. I think it's a. I'm glad you brought that up because I think the debacle of nation building gets. Overshadows what Fifth Group did at the beginning. They just crushed America's enemy at will. Just a handful of ODAs completely crushed that whole country's fighting force. And when it really comes down to Afghanistan, we didn't. Yeah, I've said this before, so we didn't lose Afghanistan. We didn't lose Afghanistan. The Afghans lost Afghanistan. If we wanted to occupy Afghanistan for, for the rest, with, for the rest of our days, there would be an American flag on that flagpole for as long as we wanted it there. And no one can take that from us, which means we won. But we decided to try to nation build, which wasn't. In hindsight, it was a bad choice, but we gave them an opportunity. And the Afghan people fumbled that ball.

[Travis Horning]

Yep.

[Brent Tucker]

We didn't lose it. What is, what is your perception of, of Afghanistan, the war? Was it, was it worth it?

[Travis Horning]

How it ended for Afghanistan? I, I hate how it ended. And I mean, so much work that's just thrown away, but it, it's not all on us. Like you said, it really takes them and it's, it's frustrating. At, at the end of our trip, we closed down our camp, Camp Wise.

[Brent Tucker]

Okay.

[Travis Horning]

And handed it over to the Afghans. We came back two weeks later demolished, like, just. It deteriorated like that. They don't take care of anything. They didn't care about it. I mean, they didn't adopt our, they

[Brent Tucker]

didn't adopt our culture at the end of the day. Yep. And they had plenty of, plenty of opportunity to see what our culture was about and what hard work was about and how much we were willing to support them. And they just never really seemed. They. The problem is they didn't want it as bad as we wanted it. We wanted it for their country more than they wanted it for their country. And the Taliban wanted it more than they wanted. They didn't want the Taliban to take over, but the Taliban wanted to take it over more.

[Travis Horning]

Yep. And initially, you know, with the, with the Northern alliance, when we came in, they wanted it. They wanted us.

[Brent Tucker]

That's right. Yeah.

[Travis Horning]

And when you have both sides wanting it enough, you can get a lot of results.

[Brent Tucker]

Yeah.

[Travis Horning]

It was after that that it kind of fell apart,

[Brent Tucker]

I think, because it's easy for, for people who don't want to see the success of the American government and want to view everything as, As a failure. The. It's why they paint the Afghan war the way they do. And I understand it.

[Travis Horning]

I'm.

[Brent Tucker]

I'm not saying I don't understand it, but the, they like to lump Iraq as a, as a failed venture as well. And in my opinion, that's, that's just simply not true. I've even been back to Iraq as a, as a, as a contractor and seen Baghdad and what it's become. What's. What's your opinion on, on Iraq and, and how that ended and where Iraq stands today?

[Travis Horning]

Definitely more successful. They wanted it more. Yeah, they're, they're taking the sport that we gave them and trying to build something that can stand on its own.

[Brent Tucker]

Now I think there was, because it's a Shia based country, like 80 to 90% Shia, and there is going to, I think a concern earlier is there was going to be a lot of Iranian influence into that, but I think we just solved that problem. So I think, so I think Iraq really has, has a chance at a true, a true success in Syria. What'd you think about our, our partner force, the Kurds, and, and that, and that war as well.

[Travis Horning]

So the Kurds are probably the easiest to work with. I mean, they get it and they want to achieve their objectives and are willing to take the advice and push to make their dream come true.

[Brent Tucker]

Do you think we should have given the Kurds part of Syria?

[Travis Horning]

I don't know if I'm smart enough to speak intelligently about that, but like, because there's some ambiguity to that and what they want, you know, doesn't necessarily fall within the lines of Syria. It crosses lines. And now you're talking a whole nother thing.

[Brent Tucker]

Yeah, like you, because, because we were there the same time. We worked with the same people. The Kurds were great and I was always personally pulling for him. But it, that one does get complicated really quick. But I also think people look at complicated situations or, or they're scared to make a decision and they fall on. I mean, we saw generals do this time and time again and, and say, well, that's complicated. And I'm just a simple man. I go with this and I go with a simple answer. And to me, the Kurds, just like for the past thousands of years, if you fight for land, you shed your blood on it. It's your land.

[Travis Horning]

Yep.

[Brent Tucker]

And I think the Kurds deserve that. And it's up, it's up to them

[Travis Horning]

to hold that land, distill it down to its most simple thing. Yeah, that's right. Like they, you earned it.

[Brent Tucker]

You earned it. It's yours. And I felt, I felt like we did leave them wanting, maybe with almost another bad experience working with the Americans, which, which is tough because the ground guys, we had a great relationship with them.

[Travis Horning]

Oh yeah.

[Brent Tucker]

If it was up to us, you know, maybe there would have been a

[Travis Horning]

different outcome and they would have done anything for us.

[Brent Tucker]

They have, they did, they did and they did. And here we are asking them again, hey, now it's a different part of the Kurds and what we worked with, you know, you have Turkish Kurds, you have Syrian Kurds, you have Iraqi Kurds. And they're all, they're all fall under the same Kurdish banner, but they are different at the same time. And now we're asking the Kurds again to go into Iran and help with that. And at some point that's the problem with not supporting them after they did that to you. If I was the Iraqi Kurds, I would say I don't know, what do we get out of it? And normally I would be kind of upset at that attitude. But I feel like the Kurds have earned that attitude. It's about time for them to say, wow, sure, we might do this. What do we get out of it?

[Travis Horning]

Yeah.

[Brent Tucker]

Well, how's retirement? Fresh. How fresh we talking?

[Travis Horning]

February 22nd was my last day in the army.

[Brent Tucker]

That is fresh. We're recording this thing beginning of March.

[Travis Horning]

Yeah. But I'm excited about it. It was, it was very difficult for me to make the decision and because I mean I was leaving the only thing I've ever known my adult, entire adult life. I joined right out of high school after 911 and or for a few years later. But I had to wait to graduate. Yeah. And then that's a big change and leaving everything you've known and loved and. And I did it as long as I did because of the guys, you know.

[Brent Tucker]

Yeah.

[Travis Horning]

Now starting completely over, trying to figure out what's next, all that. But I'm excited about it.

[Brent Tucker]

After 22 years, did you know it was time? What, what, what made that decision? Yeah,

[Travis Horning]

part of it was, you know, my body. It just a lot of wear and tear, being rode hard, put up wet, you know and then

[Brent Tucker]

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[Travis Horning]

I liked being at, you know, group level and down and it was looking like, you know, that was no longer gonna be an option for me.

[Brent Tucker]

Yeah.

[Travis Horning]

And at this point, you know, I'd been in the same, my kids have been in the same place their entire life. Like, I had an option to move up, but it would have required me to rip them out of everything that they've ever known. And me, you know, as a kid growing up, I went to 10 different schools growing up and I was like, I'm not gonna make my kids go through that. So to give them stability. And Tennessee is amazing. Love it there. Like, I don't ever want to leave. And I really wanted to retire out of fifth group. I didn't want to go somewhere else and do that.

[Brent Tucker]

Did you do a retirement party?

[Travis Horning]

I did it. My wife had a, had a big say in that. She's like, you're doing it. And, but it was fun.

[Brent Tucker]

I'm not surprised that you said that about her having a, a big part in it. I did not have a retirement party. And I had this, I had this, if you really want to call it, selfish mindset that I think was wrong and good intentions. And I said, hey, no one threw a party for me when I got here. No one's throwing a party for him. I leave everyone, you know, everyone go to work. And someone told me when, really later, it's kind of too late to change my mind. But I wasn't going to change my mind anyway because I'm hard headed. And he said, he's like, you, you oaf. The retirement party isn't for you. It's it's for everyone else around you. Yeah. It's that. That's who it's for. It's not for you. And. And he's right. It's. I. I probably. I took that away from.

[Travis Horning]

From.

[Brent Tucker]

From other people.

[Travis Horning]

And. And when, you know, I've heard you say that before, and, like, that actually influenced me. I'm like, okay, I need to do this. I love it.

[Brent Tucker]

I love it. I'm glad you. I'm glad you did it. Well, Travis, thank you so much for coming on. Thanks for the history of the Jeds. Thanks for telling your story. Everyone already know who you are by the time this airs because we got to get ready for a life tonight.

[Travis Horning]

Yeah. Looking forward to it.

[Brent Tucker]

I can't wait. Travis, not so fast. Tell me a funny story.

[Travis Horning]

Oh, man. Okay.

[Brent Tucker]

It better not involve me.

[Travis Horning]

It was originally going to, but I decided keep it.

[Brent Tucker]

Okay.

[Travis Horning]

Keep it nice.

[Brent Tucker]

Classy, man.

[Travis Horning]

Like, okay, so this one doesn't even have anything to do with the military. This is a story about two dumb brothers. Sure.

[Brent Tucker]

You got two sitting right here.

[Travis Horning]

Yeah. So that's. I hope to hear a story that. Relatable.

[Brent Tucker]

But. Okay,

[Travis Horning]

so my brother, he's two years younger than me. We've been very close our entire life. But anyway, we were. We were kids. I think I was probably around six, maybe seven. And we were watching a movie. I remember it to this day. The Perfect Weapon is about fighting. You know, I loved anything. Ninjas fighting, war, whatever. Sneaky stuff.

[Brent Tucker]

Yeah.

[Travis Horning]

So we finished watching it, and we got the bright idea to go. There's a lot of knife throwing in the movie. And so we went and got all the butter knives out of the kitchen drawer. And we're standing opposite ends of the hallway, like, throwing butter knives at each other. And my mom walks in and she gets mad, and she sends us to her room, you know, rightfully so. And so now me and my brother are sitting in our room, which me and him shared a room. I didn't have my own room until I joined the army.

[Brent Tucker]

Okay.

[Travis Horning]

But we're like, man, Mom's really upset. You know, what are we going to do to put her in a good mood? And then I got a bright. I was like, I got it. My mom had these big, white, furry house shoes, like, long white hair on them. Like, we'll give mom's house shoes a haircut.

[Brent Tucker]

So that'll make it better. Yeah.

[Travis Horning]

So I was like, you stay here, I'll go sneak. I snuck into my mom's room, into her closet, got her her house shoes. And the scissors snuck back into our room, shut the door. And then I had my brother, like, holding the hair up. And then I had the scissors and was going to cut them because I, you know, little didn't know how to use scissors, right? And he kept letting go of the hair right before I would cut. And I got mad at him. I was like, stop letting go. I'm not gonna. I'm not gonna cut you. And I was, like, watching. So I was like. I handed him the scissors, right? And then I'm holding the hair, and he goes. First snip and then cuts off the tip of my finger. There's blood and white fur everywhere. I grab a sweater and wrap my hand. In it lays blood and fur. And I go lock myself in the bathroom. And then my mom finds out about it, and she's beating on the door, right? Travis let me in right now. He's like, no, mom not letting you in. Like, holding it under the sink, right? Because I knew she doesn't respond well to the side of blood.

[Brent Tucker]

Okay.

[Travis Horning]

And I finally. She's like, you better let me in. I'm Kick this door down. And I was like, fine. And I opened it up. She walks in and takes a deep breath, and she's like, I'll be right back. And she goes out, breathes a minute. I don't know what happens. But anyway, she. She comes back, gets me, takes me to the hospital, and then she's passing me off to the doctors. And then they're like. She was like, you got him? And they're like, yeah, we got him. Are you sure you got him? And they're like, yeah, we got him. And then she passes out and hits the floor.

[Brent Tucker]

I could only imagine you tried to eventually explain that to your mom, that she had to look at it as like, we're. Were they trying to get back at me for. For. You know, that's got to be what it looks like. Like, you got in trouble.

[Travis Horning]

Yeah.

[Brent Tucker]

You sneak out to terrorize her slippers.

[Travis Horning]

Yeah.

[Brent Tucker]

And like. And then your. Your young boy mind.

[Travis Horning]

Yeah.

[Brent Tucker]

No, this was for you, mom.

[Travis Horning]

Yeah.

[Brent Tucker]

How is this for me?

[Travis Horning]

I think it was the same time Edward scissors hands came out, too.

[Brent Tucker]

So it was like they started out throwing knives. They were going to the hospital that night. Either way, you go to the hospital. Hospital that night, regardless, he just found the new way to do it. Yeah. And while you're talking about that, as far as, like, sneaking out, doing that to your. To your mom's shoes, and then going to the bathroom, I actually thought about. Well that was his. That was his his real first introduction to surprise kill. Vanish.

[Travis Horning]

Yeah, there you go. I tried to vanish.

[Brent Tucker]

He tried to vanish. Well, we'll work on your vanity. Well we'll we'll really needed to work on all three phases of that. She's definitely surprised you got it eventually you got the mistakes out of the way early. That that says that actually checks out. Yeah, that checks out. Thank you, Travis. Let's go to the car. Let's go to the garage, smoke some cigars.

[Travis Horning]

Hell yeah.

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