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- [00:00]
A
Welcome back to the Tier One podcast. I am your host, Brent Tucker, owner of FRCC. Go to frcc.shop and use promo code TIER1 to get 15 off the world's best coffee, cigars and bourbon.
- [00:16]
B
And I'm Drew Tucker with First Responder Coffee and Cigar Company.
- [00:19]
A
I invite you to join our Patreon brought to you by Cobalt Kinetics.
- [00:24]
B
There, there's behind the scene contents, there's a fitness forum, there's a weapons forum,
- [00:29]
A
and there's a gun expert from Cobalt Kinetics ready to answer your questions.
- [00:33]
B
Join the Patreon
- [00:36]
A
and as always, this episode is brought to you by HP TRT. That's Human Performance TRT. Go to HP D TRT.com and use promo code tier one to get 20% off your peptide and testosterone needs. Don't wait any longer to get in the best shape of your life. Your go and do it now. Let's do it, Drew. Welcome to the Tier one podcast.
- [01:30]
B
This is amazing.
- [01:31]
A
Dude, check this out. And with us today we have Joe England. You may recognize him from his YouTube channel, the Stoic Viking, or from his Instagram handle, Stoic Viking 2025. He was a. He was at 5th Group as a saude who supplied 5th Special Forces Group with signal intelligence. He was also with the ISA, the Intelligence Support Activity, DoD's Tier 1 intelligence agency, and also a former Blackhawk pilot. Welcome to the show.
- [02:13]
B
Thank you. It's a pleasure to be here.
- [02:15]
A
I got a few things for you right off the bat before we get too far into this. That is from our sponsor, Cloud Defense. From all the different things you did in the military. You may still have guns. And a gun without a tack light is only half good. Yeah, you gotta. You gotta be useful at. At night too. Want to give you that. You may know these guys tasty gains.
- [02:44]
B
I do indeed.
- [02:45]
A
Actually, I noticed in your supply you brought that you didn't have the. The watermelon flavor.
- [02:51]
B
No.
- [02:51]
A
So took it upon myself to, to give you to. To fill that void in your arsenal.
- [02:58]
B
Absolutely. And to be honest, I, you know, I struggle with creatine and I always felt like it tasted like sand. I was over super, super inconsistent with taking it. But when we found creatine gummies, I definitely was more consistent. But then I kept running into the problem. I was like, one some of these, I'm like, I don't even feel like it's going on. And then I found out through more research that some of them don't actually have the level of creatine they are. And then when I first tried Tasty Gains. It was like one of the first ones that I know that because they third party test the thing and within days I could actually feel that kind of like additional strength and recovery that I had from that.
- [03:35]
A
Yep. I'm glad you said that. We do. I've seen a couple of random comments that say that every now and again. I was like, oh, creatine gummies don't work. No. Certain companies tried to. Tried to get over on that and. And Tasty Gains, like you said, does third party testing. We know they're legit.
- [03:52]
B
Yeah.
- [03:52]
A
And same thing. I don't. I'm really bad at taking creatine, so I'm not, I'm not going to haul powder around and then mix it. Just. It's just too much.
- [04:00]
B
Yeah.
- [04:01]
A
Anyway, so.
- [04:02]
B
But I actually have a gift for you as well.
- [04:04]
A
Oh.
- [04:05]
B
So some people think that it's tacky when fellow podcasters or couples dress alike. So we, you know, I'm, I'm dressed in head to ankle and barbell apparel.
- [04:18]
A
All right.
- [04:18]
B
Yep. And when I told the guys at Barbell Apparel that I was coming over here to do this, this podcast, they were super excited. They're like, we want to give Brent a gift. So from our friends over at Barbell Apparel, we present you this multitude of clothing items. You know, they are again, oh, so much. Yeah. So.
- [04:47]
A
Oh, that's awesome.
- [04:48]
B
Yeah. Lifetime guarantee. These guys, like, if they rip it. And trust me, I, I try. I put that stuff to the test. And they're made for guys who have athletic builds. And to be honest, like, I was a former big Lululemon guy, you know, they're this quality. It's probably one of the highest quality of clothing that I've ever been to. Like, had it fits great. Especially you work out and honestly, you can do. You can work out in like their dress, clothing, everything like that. They just, it's honestly one of the best pieces of clothing. And randomly, I actually was a member of their Kickstarter ten years prior to them reaching out and asking.
- [05:27]
A
Oh, really?
- [05:28]
B
Yeah. So. Because when the guys reached out, they're like, hey, would you like to try our stuff? I was like, bro, I'm already a member. And I even showed them the email where I confirmed being a member of their Kickstarter.
- [05:37]
A
So.
- [05:38]
B
Love it. Yeah.
- [05:39]
A
Black multi. Oh, yeah. That's actually like the black chocolate chip, the old desert pattern, but in all black. Well, you have set the standard for now on. Oh, nice. Whenever I give someone a gift, I'm just gonna stare at them until.
- [05:57]
B
Exactly.
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A
Until I get something back. Exactly.
- [06:00]
B
So for everybody else watching even more.
- [06:04]
A
Oh, that's awesome.
- [06:05]
B
Bring your gifts. Pay homage.
- [06:07]
A
Oh, thank you. That's. That. That put me in a good mood for this podcast. This is gonna be a good episode. You did a few things. You've been a few places. Let's get into it. You started out at fifth group, correct? So the sa SA are a huge asset to Special Forces. And I'm. I'm really glad that's. That's where you started your career, because I don't really. We don't really get to talk about them on a whole lot. And every Green Beret knows what a sad A is, but not everyone knows what a Saudi is.
- [06:42]
B
Yeah.
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A
So how'd you get that job?
- [06:46]
B
So originally I would. I got it because I was trying to become a Green Beret.
- [06:50]
A
Okay.
- [06:50]
B
I wanted to be an 18x ray, but I. Unfortunately, I was in a car accident in college that left me with a ruptured spleen. Ended up a splenectomy and a brain hemorrhage, and the splenectomy ended up disqualifying me from the 18x ray program. But then I was told by the recruiter that I could go the back route, which was get my language first and then get to group and then get a waiver from within group. So that ended up becoming the plan I did that. Became a Farsi linguist, finished training, finished airborne, and then when I got to fifth group, we immediately got there, and then I was attached. I became a Saude, which stands for Special Operations Team Alpha, or as the Green Berets, and the company used to call it, Special Operations Team awesome. And so the goal of a Saude is. So especially this is in 2007, the only people that were allowed to be saudes at the time were cryptological linguists. But that made sense because the job when it originally started was they were forced protection for ODAs. They would be in the trucks or on the ground with them, and they would have HF interception devices or any sort of communication at the time. But it's obviously started with the radios, and then they would be listening to possible intercepted radio chatter, maybe listening for maybe a force that was planning an ambush. Anything they could sort of use as indicators. And then leading into the gwot, we sort of transitioned from force protection to targeting to geolocation and analysis through tools like through the NSA and all sorts of different things. And definitely expanded from more of a defensive posture to almost a offensive posture. And how we could assist in bringing that level of capabilities not just from a technical, but also a resource management. Because a lot of us had access to NSA net, and especially during that time during the gwat, the access, especially in Iraq, to the systems was unparalleled. What you could get through NSA net.
- [09:02]
A
Yeah, I'm. I'm actually glad you brought up the force protection aspect of it because I actually forgot about that. I spent so, you know, much of my second half of my career only using SIGINT for offensive operations. I forgot how much Saude's protected us on. On convoys.
- [09:21]
B
Yep. It's.
- [09:23]
A
It's probably. It's probably impossible to. In fact. It is. Yeah. To. To really calculate how many Green Berets lives Saudes saved with intercepting ICOM chatter. Like it was. They were so that. That alone they were. They were worth their weight and gold. I remember. Yeah. Gosh, I can remember some funny stories of. So not all ICOM chatter.
- [09:47]
B
Yeah.
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A
Is. Is enemy. You don't just get the enemy chatter. You get all the chatter.
- [09:51]
B
No, we get the sex team. Everything. We get guys calling their mistresses, getting dirty talk. You definitely get. So, you know, when we're at positions, especially where we're at a security halt, you know, when you're 18, Alpha is doing a key leader engagement, obviously you're out there with the other Green Berets and you're pulling security and you've got the, the Saud A. Or at least a who's in the truck. And he's, he's. He's monitoring chatter.
- [10:17]
A
Yeah.
- [10:17]
B
And almost always 90% of everything you got is like sexting and all different types of chatter. So you. And you get over the radio and you'll, you'll let the guys, including the Green Berets, like, hey, this is what I just heard.
- [10:29]
A
I remember one time we were on a. We were intentionally going to halt outside of a village and just see if there was any chatter. Just being close to this village would. Would drum up. So we were there for like, you know, 30 minutes or an hour. And the Saudi comes over radio and goes, hey, when you guys. When you guys pissing? And one's like, yeah, you know, whatever his name is, make it out. Yeah, Jason's out there pissing. He's like, is. Is his butt out? He's like, yeah, he's got his pants down, his butts out. He's like, how do you know? He goes, yeah, they're. They're talking about him right now. They find it very offensive that his butts out just Just the random stuff. Yeah, that, that you get. And in a weird way, just because they're it, it's, I mean you, you guys give us, you know, the intel and it's, it's up to all of us to decipher. But it's difficult because just because they're watching us doesn't mean they have ill intent. It's not uncommon for, to have a foreigner, you know, to think that hey there's a, there's a foreign military, they've just parked outside our village. You don't know what their intent is, so you just, so you just watch them. You have your own neighborhood security and. Which also made it difficult because it's hard to decipher what's. What's neighborhood security, what's just curious and what's, what's actual like reporting on you through, through an enemy lens. Sometimes it was very obvious and easy to figure out, but it wasn't always. So yeah, that, that force protection part of it, I really forgot about what a asset you guys were for that. And it wasn't really until probably my second, third, you know, several deployments into my SF career. I knew that you guys did that, but I really wasn't aware like when you bring up the, the NSA level or other because that, what that's, that was what I saw as a junior guy like the force protection and the intel every now and again. But it took a little bit before I realized, you know, that that's not a team has, you know, a TS clearance and they're over there working with NSA and, and at times they're, they're working with the agency and they're not, they're not just supporting us or they're not just collecting their own information, they're gathering in from, they're pushing information and gathering information from all levels.
- [12:54]
B
Yep.
- [12:54]
A
It's a really, it's a really unique job.
- [12:57]
B
So one of the things I, and I can speak from experience. So my first deployment in 2007 and our. What we did mainly was force protection because at that point nobody in our team actually had NSA access for whatever reason. But when we came back for our second deployment, we all had NSA accent and we all had NSA access, which is a complete game changer because especially at that time you're dealing very, you're not really dealing with radio communications as much. Almost everything was cellular. And from a collection standpoint of view of how RF energy works and how short range cellular phones are you, we weren't really collecting other than when we were on doing Vehicle movement and stuff. Majority of the intel that we were getting was already being implant put into the nsa. And so once we had NSA access, we had access to everybody and then we could do queries and everything like that. And that's how we really drove intelligence and really increased the capability of our 18, our ODA, especially the capabilities of our 18 foxes who then could then coordinate with the few guys who were on the team who were asot level, who were meeting with sources and we could verify. Because HUMINT by itself can only go so far. SIGINT by itself can only go so far. But when you combine HUMINT and SIGINT to really try to verify each other, you really start to get a much better intelligence product. And for your decision makers, the 18 Alpha, the 18 Zulu, to really make decisions off of. And it really increased our effectiveness to
- [14:31]
A
have that capability, that Saudi capability, as you really already, as you already mentioned, it really kind of transformed over the years because you guys were what you're capable of doing. And it was really up to the ODA to keep up with your capabilities if they, they don't know what to task you about if they don't know what you're capable of.
- [14:58]
B
Exactly.
- [14:59]
A
And some ODAs were more, were more proactive with their Saudis than others. And maybe some of them knew their capabilities. They just chose to, to go in different directions. Did you find, did you find it common or uncommon that at that time during the war that you were still having to essentially tell ODAs what your capabilities were? Or at that time did most of them know it and it was easy to work with them?
- [15:29]
B
So yes and no. And a lot of this had to do with. It was an ever evolving technological landscape. So when we first got there, cell phones were still in like 2G. So we had a certain level of capabilities. And then during one of our deployments, the networks had sort of upgraded to 3G. And that changed what we could do and we couldn't. And then also the technology to combat these particular ever evolving technologies would evolve. We would get new pieces of equipment, then would then increase our capabilities. And between geolocation devices, collection devices, analytical tools, that was probably one of the things to start up because people at the NSA are creating all sorts of new core tools to access the extensive database that they have. And so we constantly would have to update them even mid deployment, be like, hey, we now have this new ability because it's hard for us to stay on top of it. And I can't expect anybody on these ODAs where it's not their job to stay on top of it without us informing them. There were some Odas who were just not really interested in that capability. So some were, some were not.
- [16:41]
A
We just kind of, I, I get it. SF teams were so human reliant at, at times and when it came to some of them just painting broad strokes and some, we always wanted that SIGINT capability. But I feel like some teams, they knew it was much heavier weighed on the tier one side where they, they just basically got handed things and it's, I think that's really how they saw Sigant. Like if you're not just going to hand me a mission over sigint, then we'll just drum up our, our own missions on, on human.
- [17:20]
B
Yeah.
- [17:21]
A
And just didn't really want to work for it because they, they stayed with, with what they knew.
- [17:28]
B
Yeah.
- [17:28]
A
And that wasn't all teams, but that was, I, I def, I definitely saw that. Yeah, I saw that. And as an echo man, that's, let me tell you. I loved having Sades with me because we dabbled in sigint but, but that was our, our job wasn't the intercept communication. Our job was to make it. And so as, as, as always on, on an ODA, like, well, 12 guys, you got 30 jobs to do. This one lines up in your realm. This is a new piece of gear. You can now intercept signals. You, you, you're now the second guy on the team as well.
- [18:01]
B
Yeah.
- [18:02]
A
And I made it happen a few times, but that wasn't, that was not my forte, nor was ever going to be my forte, but I knew enough about it to be dangerous. And when the Saud would come, I, I, they were godsends. I'm like, thank God you're here. So someone who actually does this job.
- [18:18]
B
Absolutely.
- [18:19]
A
I have so many questions for you. I got the class. I don't think I'm doing it. I don't think I'm doing it all right. And some of those equipment, we needed several on the ground to triangulate. So even though sometimes I was capable of doing it, I needed more pieces on the battlefield to really get the most out of it.
- [18:38]
B
Yep. And when you, when you're a Saud a and you come to an oda there, there's a bit of a, you have to kind of show that you're, you're worth and there's a whole kind of basically showing that you're not a hindrance. You're not going to get in the way you can, you can be helpful to them. Usually the first two people on an ODA that usually went over are the two Echoes and then usually shortly after is the Foxtrot. And on my second deployment where I was the sole Saudi attached to this team, I was referred to as. I was the anti echo. And that was essentially I was anti 18 anti echo which was the, the, the joke that used to call.
- [19:21]
A
I get that, yeah. Here at the Tier 1 podcast we're excited to have Tasty Gains as a sponsor. A company with values that aligns with ours. I take their products every day, three times a day. And if it wasn't a product that I didn't take personally and believe in and a company with integrity, then they wouldn't be sponsors on this show. Creatine helps the body produce more ATP which is an energy molecule that, that your entire body runs on. It helps improve your physical and mental performance in all aspects of life. Let's be honest, creatine powder sucks to take every day. With the creatine gummies you can take them with you anywhere and they taste great. Every batch is third party tested so you know you're getting exactly what you pay for. Go to tastygains.com and enter the promo code tier one. That's T I E R the number one. And get 20% off your order. How, how long were you in that job for? It looks like you got a couple of deployments under your belt doing that job.
- [20:22]
B
Yeah, I did two back to back deployments to Iraq. Both the exact same team houses in the Dial province along the Iranian border. And I did three years for that. And then in between that I got. I was still trying my. My path of trying to become a Green Beret. We were able to put in a waiver. Unfortunately it was turned down linking to the guy. The week that my waiver went up to be put in front of the commanding general who would assigned it. The guy who was in the Q course who died of a supposed snake bite died that week. And then a few days later we received that I was turned down due to. The commander did not want to assume the risk of somebody coming into the course or selection with a compromise immune system.
- [21:14]
A
I remember that it was. Man, I gotta. I believe it was selection and he was dehydrated as well. If they thought he was dehydrated and that that snake bite only made it worse. And he. And he died out there a little bit. Neither one helped. Yeah, but it's, it's crazy that they linked those two like to some degree. But unless you've been in the, the community and you've seen when something bad happens.
- [21:44]
B
Yeah.
- [21:45]
A
The amount of risk adverseness that, that, that creeps in is insane. I can absolutely see them doing that.
- [21:51]
B
Absolutely. And it was just, honestly, it was just bad timing.
- [21:54]
A
Yeah.
- [21:54]
B
If it, if I, if it had went before him a week prior, I probably would have gotten approved and you know, life was a different story. But that's just not how it happened. And led me down a different path because in between those two political points, because they were back to back, we did the team houses for eight months, came back and first group replaced us. And then we had six months before we went back out again to replace them. And during that time I was sent to a pilot course at the time run by a company called Prometius Group. And this course was actually the pilot course that would later become SOCOM's advanced SIGINT course. GSM SIGINT course. And that course was run by Orange and green guys. But the course director was a former command sergeant Major of a squadron at Orange or isa. And after we were done with this eight week course, which was an amazing course by the way, he pulled me aside and he told me that he had heard that I was trying to get a waiver done, trying to become a Green Beret. And he had been impressed with how I conducted myself within the course, my abilities, everything that I had done. And he said that I had what they were looking for when it came to operatives. So he gave me the recruiter information. He told that I should go to selection. And he made the joke. He's like, you should skip JV and come straight. Diversity pros. Just because something on the job runs out doesn't mean you have to order it on the Lowe's app. My Lowe's Pro Rewards members get free same day delivery on eligible orders over $25. Get the fasteners, hardware or tools you need to keep the job Moving. Order by 2pm and get eligible in stock. Items delivered right to your job site by 8pm members get more at Lowe's loyalty program subject to terms and conditions. Subject to availability restrictions and terms@lowe's.com Shipping terms subject to change. Are you stuck staring at your W2? Are tax refund worries holding you back? You probably have FOMO. The fear of messing up the fix using TurboTax on Intuit credit Karma. They find every credit and deduction to help you get every refund dollar you deserve or your money back. It's time to overcome your fear of messing up and get your Taxes done right.
- [24:19]
A
Start filing today in the Credit Karma app. He's not wrong. I mean that'll offend some people. That's okay. They're easily, some people are easily offended.
- [24:30]
B
Yeah.
- [24:32]
A
When I was thinking about them and you're right, a week, a week earlier you, you would have became a Green Beret. Yeah. Maybe a year later you still would have. There's so much, so much of a, of a person's career path has to do with, with timing. Just good luck, bad luck, dumb luck has to do with timing. And you had a great foundation for going to an ODA with those, with those two trips and a Saudi background, you would immediately hit the ground as a net positive. Without your background, I'm assuming as anti echo as the joke was, you'd have gone a bit an echo.
- [25:13]
B
Yeah, yeah. You had to.
- [25:15]
A
Yeah, yeah, yeah. But we say it all the time. It's not that bad things happen to you, it's how, it's how you handle them.
- [25:24]
B
Exactly.
- [25:25]
A
The, the car wreck thing, you, you, you could have woes meet it and not went into the military. You end up, you still end up joining, although you didn't get what you wanted. Yeah, you still didn't get what you wanted after doing all the things you're supposed to do. But it's, it's the old, you know, what's, what's next.
- [25:45]
B
Yeah.
- [25:46]
A
Of course the running joke is if, you know, if you want to make God laugh, tell them your plans.
- [25:50]
B
Yep. I love it.
- [25:51]
A
I'm just, I'm for the young listeners out there, but heck, it can be at 50, 60 years old, you never know when that speed bump is going to come and, and you're getting tested again or really for the first time. It's not that bad things happen to you, it's how you handle them. And you end up going to a tier one unit on working on the very edge of things that are happening in the G wat for the next almost decade. So I just have to stop to point that out. I love that about your story.
- [26:23]
B
Yeah. Because if you think about it, if I, if I had been approved would I probably would never have ended up at isa you know, it may not even ended up even at the tier one level. So it's just like, you know, when one door closes, another one opens and you have no idea what like your life could be even greater at a possibility just because of something that happens. So you just take it as it is or do what you can or
- [26:48]
A
even if you end up in the isa, you delay that by four, five, six years at least. And, and you miss, and you miss the.
- [26:55]
B
Oh, absolutely.
- [26:56]
A
The heyday, if you will, of all the things that you were a part of that, that were not. That were not going to be there later.
- [27:03]
B
Yeah. And I probably would have missed out probably of the. Some of the best parts of my career just because I was in the right place at the right time with the right background, you know, and you look at like, for example, yourself, like, you know, you've had like a stellar 20 year career and it's because you were at the right place at the right time.
- [27:24]
A
And things didn't always work out for me, but I, I never, I never let it completely get me down.
- [27:31]
B
Yeah.
- [27:32]
A
So although you get this invitation now, you're in a, you're in a maybe a little bit more of a niche to where you might know what you're signing up for. But even at that time, I had some. I had two buddies go to Orange. I knew what they were intel that's about. If you asked me two more, one more question about, about Orange, I'd have been like, no, I just know their intel. So little is known about them. For you. What did you know about them at the time?
- [28:07]
B
I knew about as much as everybody else did, which is next to nothing. So I will tell you. So I remember on my first deployment, this was like the first month, and I was standing on top of our team house with two guys who would basically become my best friends on this team. Unfortunately, one got killed about a month later and we were having the discussion about when you, for sf, if you wanna go to the next level, you had two options was either go to green or go to orange. And I remember Jason. And I've never heard this, like, I'm just soaking this whole thing up with a sponge. I remember saying, jason, Jason, like, what's orange? Like, I'd not heard of it at this point. And he was like, well. And he starts telling me these, about how it's like this, these intelligence guys, but they do the super cool stuff, they're always going off, they've got their own airplanes and they do whatever. And he like. And he stops. He's like, green is like if you want to be John Rambo, but if you want to be James Bond, you go to orange. I was like, okay, you know, that sounds cool.
- [29:09]
A
So not completely right? Not completely wrong.
- [29:12]
B
No, that's true. You know, I think that there's always a, A bit of a kernel to the truth, right?
- [29:19]
A
Yeah, yeah.
- [29:19]
B
But, you know, nothing's as much as we want it to be. Nothing's like Hollywood, but there was some, some semblance of truth within there. So, and especially this was when I put in my packet to go to selection. It was 2009. And so YouTube was, I think, just getting started. There was very little in depth, very little information, not really any information about especially that unit. And so when I put in my packet, I was not 100% sure what I was even trying out for because the unit is very secretive, probably to its own detriment sometimes, but they have all these different organizations have different names, so you can't connect them. So you're not sure which exactly your selection you're going to. So I went to selection, not sure. I decided to bring some reading material with me to help me along that way. And luckily it ended up being the unit I thought it was going to or the unit I thought I was going to.
- [30:16]
A
Right. To clarify what you said, like, maybe even too secretive. Here's, here's a good example of that. I had several friends go to, go to that brief and they still weren't really sure what brief they were going to. They just knew it was a level up. And when they asked more detail, they're like, they wouldn't, they basically just wouldn't give them any information. Like, well, you know, if you get selected, you'll find out. And being team guys, you know, they're like, well, I don't know. I don't know if I want to do that job. So why would I go to selection if I don't know what job I'm doing? They're like, well, that's, that's the information you get. And some guys would leave and be like, no, I'm not going to that selection. I don't know. I don't know what I'm, what job I'm trying out for. And that's fair, I get that. So there's the. Too secretive. Could be. I believe there's a chance they missed out on some really good guys because being too secretive. Absolutely, if you will. But in that world, if you, if again, if you're going to err on one side or the other, that's there, that's, that's the side air on.
- [31:24]
B
Absolutely. And I, I, you can draw some parallels. For example, the, I feel like SF right now is going through a bit of a recruiting crisis, but the Rangers are not. And if you look at the different Instagram pages that the Rangers, you know, like, if you want the best, you got to make it look, look cool.
- [31:39]
A
Right? So that always frustrates me. It's, it's frustrated me ever since the SEALs got into really good marketing. And I'm not talking about, like, books and people and things like that. I'm talking about the actual Navy SEAL marketing. They've had some good marketing.
- [31:55]
B
Oh, absolutely.
- [31:55]
A
The Rangers don't do a great job, but they've had a couple cool videos.
- [32:00]
B
Yeah.
- [32:01]
A
SF has the opportunity to do all sorts of cool stuff between sift teams, dive teams, Halo teams, like, you name it, you know, the long hair teams. Yeah, it's, it's a, it's a softball. You could make SF look so cool. And the army refuses to. There's no reason for it, honestly.
- [32:24]
B
The Navy has always been the gold standard of advertising between Tom Cruise and Charlie Sheen, you know, they've been, they've been crushing it for years.
- [32:32]
A
We had our heyday back with John Wayne. We, we, we dabbled in with Rambo, but, you know, he wasn't in the Green Berets, like, for the movie. So, like, you know, he's a Green Beret, but it really wasn't a Green Beret movie. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And the next best thing we got was, what was it? Drew Commando, when Arnold Schwarzenegger was like, I know these men. The green brace from Fort Bragg.
- [32:56]
B
Yep.
- [32:57]
A
It's a horrible impersonation. But it sounds about right, though. And I think that's. Yeah. No Predator. Well, I'm gonna get green Brazen. Yes. I think that was Predator. They're going into the jungle.
- [33:10]
B
Yeah.
- [33:10]
A
And that was, that was kind of the, the, the end of the Green Berets.
- [33:14]
B
Yeah.
- [33:15]
A
Marketing campaign with Hollywood.
- [33:16]
B
No.
- [33:16]
A
And so it was on us to market, and, and we just have not done a good job. But with, with orange again, like. But they're doing something right.
- [33:25]
B
Yeah.
- [33:25]
A
Because they're, they're doing good things. If you've ever been to any of my tactical training classes, then you know how adamant I am about the use of white light and the importance of a quality high powered tactical light. That's why I use cloud Defensive tac lights. You can't hit what you can't see and neither can the bad guys. Clearly identify your target and simultaneously overwhelm his vision with hundreds and even thousands of lumens. Get serious about defending yourself and, and your family. Go to cloud defensive.com and use promo code tier one to get 30% off your order. That's right, 30%. You won't find a better light than this, and you won't find A better deal than this. So I actually want to go back to the history of Orange. Yeah. Because I love hearing how. How organizations started, and I think it'll give some more insight into who they are and what they do.
- [34:23]
B
Yeah. So if you go back to 1979, at that time, SOCOM was not a thing. You had Green Berets, you had Rangers, you had seals, and then you had Delta Force, and that was pretty much it. Because of the multitude of failures which happen on so many different levels between. One of the reasons 1/60 was created was because at that time, we didn't have special operations pilots. We actually had Air Force pilots who were training for the missions, who were doing really good. But because of bureaucracy between the services, they were switched out of the last second for Marine pilots.
- [35:01]
A
That's right.
- [35:01]
B
Which was one of the reasons that 1. SOCOM was created. So 1. We could have a better coordination between these elements. But the 160 was created because of the lack of that capability. Another lack of capability was intelligence on the ground. We had the CIA, but during this time, the CIA had a horrible relationship with the military. And they were very cagey about giving any sort of information during the. They gave enough information to help plan the first rescue attempt. But when it came to the second rescue attempt, which never went off, the CIA basically refused to give any sort of information, any access to their sources. So the minds at the time decided that they were going to grow that capability organically within the special operations community. And that's when Colonel Jerry King created which would. Its formal name would eventually become the Intelligence Support Activity, in which was. Its original design was to be the Army's version of the CIA, but later on would be sort of amalgamation of the CIA and the NSA and a little bit of the DIA as well.
- [36:13]
A
Yeah, that's. I love that history part about it because again, it. It answers the. The question why. Yeah, sure, we. We have the CIA, but we don't. We don't. The DOD does not own the CIA. So the CIA does what the CIA wants to do.
- [36:31]
B
Exactly.
- [36:32]
A
And we don't really have. We have intelligence that supports Special Forces, has their intelligence and the other intelligence. The other intelligence components are really set up to support the unit that they're from within combat operations. Yep. And not. And not outside of that. They were. We weren't set up to operate. And what we were about to find out was the global war on terror, where you could be anywhere at any time and maybe not operating within a combat zone. So we definitely. The DOD Needed that. Needed that capability. And ISA was stood up to fulfill it.
- [37:11]
B
Absolutely. We quickly started to really make our mark in. Our first big success was Pablo Escobar. And then we had a number of successes through Bosnia conflicts, leading all the way up into the gwat, where the unit really started to shine and really start to make its mark in the community.
- [37:32]
A
It's interesting you bring up the Pablo Escobar success because that was historically. That was really our first, at least publicized, big SIGINT win.
- [37:49]
B
Yes.
- [37:49]
A
I mean, that. That's. That and that was. That was cutting edge technology.
- [37:54]
B
Yeah.
- [37:55]
A
Back then.
- [37:56]
B
Yeah.
- [37:56]
A
Which is funny because that's what you guys end up a part of you. We'll get into that here in a second. But you guys started with that and then became who. Who would have known, not then, how big cell phones were going to be part of our lives.
- [38:11]
B
Absolutely.
- [38:12]
A
And it's just crazy.
- [38:13]
B
Yeah. Because we were monitoring, you know, obviously radio communications, but that was the cartels or Pablo Escobar and his crew were one of the first people to actually start using the brand new technology of cell phones. And, and so luckily, with brand new technology at the time, it was actually quickly we were able to find a way to break it down, how to intercept it, and then create ways to exploit it. And I think that was always one of the benefits of the organizations that would eventually become the tier one organizations. This was the level of funding and the ability for when we. When we encountered a new problem set. What are. What is the bureaucracy? What's the. The length of bureaucracy I have to go through. Absolutely. In order to create a new technology. And I think always one of the advantages of green, orange and blue is that we have very little. We have less things in our way, and we have the funding generally to do it. And it's one of the reasons why we were able to be as successful as we are.
- [39:24]
A
Would it be fair to say as. As I understand it, that the ISA is generally broken up, or at least used to be, and do two distinct operational sides of it. It has its SIGINT side and its human side.
- [39:39]
B
Yes.
- [39:40]
A
The. I ended up working a lot with the SIGINT side. In fact, after hanging out with you a little bit before the episode, we did an operation in Africa. Yeah. Together. Same country, same time.
- [39:55]
B
Probably even on the same plane together.
- [39:57]
A
Probably even on the same plane together. There wasn't one many of them, so probably 50, 50 chance.
- [40:03]
B
Chronic migraine, 15 or more headache days
- [40:06]
A
a month, each lasting four hours or
- [40:07]
B
more, can make me feel like a
- [40:09]
A
Spectator in My own Life Botox Onobotulinum toxin a prevents headaches in adults with chronic migraine.
- [40:15]
B
It's not for those with 14 or
- [40:16]
A
fewer headache days a month. It's the number one prescribed branded chronic migraine preventive treatment prescription.
- [40:22]
B
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- [41:32]
A
the it's
- [41:34]
B
good operation by the way.
- [41:36]
A
It was the they all were if I was a part of it.
- [41:42]
B
The last part was the best part.
- [41:43]
A
I was, I was a fairly new guy. I doubt I contributed much. My whole job was hey don't, don't, don't screw it up for the rest of us.
- [41:50]
B
Yeah, we had a lot of eyes on us.
- [41:56]
A
What is it? So obviously you fell in on, on the SIGINT side. Yes. Of that. When, when you first got there. In fact actually I want to back this up just a little bit. You end up going to to selection for, for this unit. Yes. A selection you for a unit you think you're a part of.
- [42:17]
B
Yes.
- [42:17]
A
At what point did you realize you're you're at the right selection?
- [42:22]
B
During one of my CI interviews. So when I showed up. So it's a about a five week selection but the first week of it is sort of an administrative week. You're getting polygraphed every single day. You have multiple interviews with CI, you do your PT test and they do this so they can screen out everybody, and it's at a different location than the selection is. So that way, everything is. If someone fails at any point, they can never trace back any sort of. Through any sort of means to even know where the unit may be located, and things like that. So during that, I brought two books because we were told that you would have some time to read. So I brought the Mission, the Men of Me by Pete Blaber, and a book called Killer Elite, which at the time, in 2010, was the only book that was written about the unit. But I was still not sure that this was the unit I was trying out for. And I had told a bunk mate that, or he had seen that I was reading this book. And so he asked me about it, and I said, well, supposedly about this unit. He's like, oh, that's really cool. So he goes off to his CIA interview, and I, about three hours later, went to the second CIA interview I had of that day. And I sit down, and after a few kind of just random questions, he asks me very directly, he's like, so you'd like to read? And I was like, yeah, I like to read. He's like, well, did you bring any books with you? I was like, I brought some books. He's like, what books did you bring? It's like, oh, the Mission, the Men of Me and this other book. He's like, but what's this other book? And right then, I knew that the guy I had talked to obviously ran his mouth. That guy actually did not pass election, by the way. So, you know,
- [44:15]
A
stitches get unselected.
- [44:16]
B
Exactly. And so he. And then I, very calmly, I was just like, well, supposedly or no? He asked me, so what's that book about? And I go, well, supposedly, it's about this unit, you know? And I very much emphasize supposedly, right? And he goes, just kind of looks me straight, and there's like, this dead. You know, it doesn't say anything, like three seconds. And he goes, I don't think it's a good idea you read this book. And now I'm instantly intrigued. Yeah. So I'm like, okay. So I. I wait for a second. I'm like, so, is it about this unit? And he's like, I don't think it's a good idea that you read this book. And so I think to myself, and I was like, okay. And then I respond with, fuck. So I respond with, if you were going to a unit or a selection, wouldn't you want to know the most about that particular organization? You're about to join, right? And I see. You see his eyes. I see the wheels turning in his book brain, and waits a couple seconds, looks me directly deadpan in the eyes, and he goes, I don't think you. No. He says, it's not a good idea that you read that book at this time. And so as soon as I left that interview, I practically ran back to the facility where we were staying at. I picked up that book, and I was about halfway through it. And I'm a slow reader, so I've never read a book so fast.
- [45:45]
A
Clearly something in this book he doesn't
- [45:46]
B
want me to know exactly. But when I was finished, I threw this down. This book down. I was pissed because there was nothing in this book about selection. And still to this day, one of the driest reads that I've ever read in my entire life. Those. I will never get those three hours back in my life.
- [46:06]
A
It's funny you mentioned that. And yeah, people ask me sometimes, you should write a book. It was a dry read because it was probably fairly accurate. Don't get me wrong. There's. There's definitely a few fun things, you know, that. That I could talk about. But for the most part, people just don't understand how. How dull it can be sometimes.
- [46:32]
B
Yeah.
- [46:32]
A
I went to this country.
- [46:33]
B
Yeah.
- [46:34]
A
And I hung out in a hangar for a really long time, waiting for a mission to go off.
- [46:39]
B
90, 95, 99 of the time, we're just waiting around to do things. And you know what? I'll even take it like one step further. Like, you know, compare your job compared to mine. Right. There are that one. 1 to 5% of your time is kind of sexy. I can tell you from an intelligence operative, sort of like life, Even when we're in that 1 to 5%, it's not sexy. Like, our job is not that sexy.
- [47:03]
A
Right.
- [47:03]
B
Gathering intelligence is not sexy.
- [47:05]
A
But we're. We're not. We're not doing our job if you're not doing your job.
- [47:09]
B
Yeah, exactly. Absolutely. We're. We're enablers, and that's. That's our job.
- [47:14]
A
Yeah, man. The. What. What did you think about selection?
- [47:18]
B
I think it was one of the. Still to this day, one of the coolest experiences of my life.
- [47:22]
A
Love to hear that.
- [47:23]
B
Yeah. One the. You know, as we've spoken before, Colonel Jerry King, when he created the unit, he cloned everything he could from the Delta Force, including how they did selection, the styles, everything like that. And so we have the same stoic nature that the instructors. You get instructions one time they just say, they give you the instructions. They say, go as fast as you can, do as the best as you can, and that's it. If you ask them a question, they just simply respond with a candidate, what were your instructions? And that's it. And you really have to. Because I think there's something about when you let, when you're not receiving positive or negative feedback, when someone's not yelling at you or telling you've done right, you have to rely on yourself, your own mental fortitude more than anything. And it's, you know, and you're in your head, but you're not talking to anybody. Like, majority of selection minus a small little section during like our hell week where they have a little bit of a team event, you interact with nobody and to just, you know, think about how you just need to put one foot in front of the other. Worry about the one event that I'm at. Worry about the, the one land nav event. Like, you know, I have one point. I'm not even worrying about the next five points. I'm just worrying about the one point and just having, and to rely on yourself and to know that I got
- [48:56]
A
this right, you know, and the ability when you're not getting any positive or negative feedback, your, your mind naturally has the desire to go negative.
- [49:08]
B
Absolutely.
- [49:08]
A
And so you have to be stronger than that. And, and because everyone's going to have a bad day or a bad event or a bad hour, whatever it is, and when you have those, you automatically just start focusing on that, like, oh, I screwed it up.
- [49:20]
B
That's.
- [49:20]
A
That wasn't my best time. That was my best performance. And you can either concentrate on that and spiral or you can put it behind yourself and be like, well, can't do nothing about that. The only thing I can do is, is better moving forward. And it's, it's seems like a small characteristic trait, but it's huge. Absolutely huge. And I love how I won't go into a lot of the details about selection, nor should we.
- [49:44]
B
Yeah.
- [49:46]
A
But how it's similar, yet slightly different from our selection.
- [49:51]
B
Yep.
- [49:51]
A
And our selection is similar, but different than SF selection. SF selection is similar, but slightly different than the Navy SEAL selection. And they're all similar, but they, they all have different things that, that they want from their candidates.
- [50:09]
B
Yeah.
- [50:09]
A
Because they have different jobs. And I love how you guys have a, have a process again. We have the same mentality that I believe transfer to you guys. We're not looking for the best guy, we're looking for the right guy.
- [50:26]
B
Absolutely.
- [50:27]
A
And to get the right guy takes the right process and it's not always. And don't get me wrong, I'm not saying you had an easy process. Do not get what I'm about to say. Twisted. But you really don't have to completely put the screws to a man to find out what he's made of. Yeah, like you're gonna have to. A little bit.
- [50:47]
B
Yeah.
- [50:47]
A
You know, but, but, but at the end of the day when you're pulling from special operations guys already.
- [50:54]
B
Yeah.
- [50:54]
A
It's really hard to make them quit. They've, they've already done it. So you have to find some, something else to assess them about.
- [51:00]
B
Absolutely.
- [51:01]
A
Who all do you guys pull from?
- [51:04]
B
So the, from the operative side of things, we pull from, pull from Green Berets, we pull from Rangers, we pull from Marine Force Recon. You can pull a few seals and, and then also intelligence disciplines. So the general idea is that regardless of your background, if you can come and you can make it, they'll, they'll, you know, they'll definitely give you a shot.
- [51:30]
A
Right.
- [51:30]
B
But they definitely. It's mostly combat arms and it's mostly intelligence disciplines.
- [51:38]
A
Who is there one particular organization is it SF Heavy? Who.
- [51:42]
B
Yeah, I would say, well, especially the, a squadron of probably of all the, the ones we get the most are Green Berets.
- [51:53]
A
That, that makes sense to me because the Green Berets within the special operations, within the special operation community are all, are the most intel driven of all. Of all the teams organically, they, they do way more organic intel than, than anyone else. So they already kind of have that, that flavor to them. Yeah, that, that absolutely makes sense.
- [52:12]
B
I would actually, and it's interesting, the second largest group are actually Marines.
- [52:17]
A
Really?
- [52:17]
B
Yep. And I think that, and this is my own personal opinion that the Marines, you know, and this is before really kind of like the MARSOC days are really. They didn't really have, especially the Marine Force Recon guys, they didn't really have a next step to the next level. And especially if you get those Marines who are big outside the box thinkers, the great problem solvers, where do they go? You know, they can either go to, you know, they either go to Kang or they can essentially they go to isa. And so we actually had a lot of Marines and my mentor and still probably the, the best guy in the unit I ever met was a Marine Force Recon guy.
- [52:51]
A
I love to hear that because actually we, the Marines that came over to, to my unit were, were great dudes. Great dudes. And to hear that they're just as successful over, over there, it seems almost like an oxymoron because to some degree, we need outside the box thinkers that you don't normally associate with Marines. Yeah, it's not a hit on Marines. It's just, yeah, that's, that's just a general truth.
- [53:23]
B
It's not exactly their culture.
- [53:24]
A
Right. But the, the reason they're so successful over at our two organizations, I believe, is because they left those organizations for a reason. They were high performers, yet they never really fit the culture. And they've all. And they always were those type of problem solvers. They can operate within the organization out of a means of necessity, but they're always, at some point they realized what they'd signed up for and it wasn't a good fit to them and their personality. And so they were looking to go some. Somewhere with their personality and mindset better aligned. And they, they find it in, in our organizations where you can be more of a free thinker and a problem solver.
- [54:06]
B
Yeah.
- [54:07]
A
So the, the joke kind is the, the Marines that come over are great performers, but they're kind of bad Marines. And that's, and that's why they're so good organizations.
- [54:15]
B
Yeah, that's. I actually think that's the, we actually use that exact same phrasing as well.
- [54:20]
A
Right.
- [54:20]
B
But you know, it's funny because. And I think that even you have this story when you first joined the military. Right. You don't know what you're doing. Right. And so most people, and to their credit, like, the Navy is really good at recruiting. So are the Marines. Right.
- [54:34]
A
I'd say they're the best.
- [54:35]
B
Yeah. Like that Dragon, that dress uniform.
- [54:38]
A
Come on, bro.
- [54:39]
B
Like, can we get some Mandarin collars around here?
- [54:43]
A
They are, they are very good at it. And, and I love it. And they, they don't do what the army does. I hate when the army kind of panders to the, to the broad audience. The Marines have always been very consistent. Few the proud. You know, the Marines, like, hey, we're hard, we're, we're a hard organization to, to get into. You better bring, you, you better be, you better be a, a tough man if you think you can be a Marine.
- [55:11]
B
Absolutely.
- [55:11]
A
They don't have a recruiting problem.
- [55:13]
B
And honestly, as a, as a young man, like, and you look at the recruiting, right? And then everything tells you that Marines especially, because you know their history from Iwo Jima and all things like that, if you were, you know, a capable man and you want to be that type of guy, why would you not join the Marines? Right.
- [55:29]
A
Right.
- [55:29]
B
I came from a military family and I had a little bit more knowledge of what was going on over there and other things like that. And obviously I watched John Wayne in the Green Berets and, you know, that was my path. But it's, it's just interesting. So when you.
- [55:41]
A
Yeah.
- [55:42]
B
When people join these organizations and then you quickly realize, okay, this is not what I thought it was, and then how do I adjust? And then that's exactly. We end up getting the Marines. And they are. Honestly, I think that of a, of a group of people that we have the fewest problems with that either like, don't do well or like, they're just. They're not right for the unit. The Marines, especially the Marine Force Recons, they are always high performers in the unit.
- [56:06]
A
Speaking of, of the military thing, as far as making poor decisions early on, it's. It's unfortunate, but it's just the way it is. You have to pick a job you know nothing about from a suggestion of. From a person you know nothing about and hope somehow that your best interest somehow falls in there.
- [56:29]
B
Yeah.
- [56:30]
A
And your best interest really doesn't even come to the equation because it's. It's the military's best interest. And that's a necessary evil. I'd. I get that.
- [56:38]
B
Yeah.
- [56:39]
A
So it's. And once you're in that career path, it can be as, you know. Yeah. It can be very difficult to choose a new one.
- [56:48]
B
Yeah.
- [56:48]
A
But you go into civil, into the civilian world. I mean, you don't have to choose your major when. When you go to college. You get. You get two years to figure it out.
- [56:57]
B
Yeah. And then you can change it.
- [56:58]
A
And then you can change it. Right.
- [56:59]
B
Yeah.
- [56:59]
A
You're not stuck in that job in
- [57:01]
B
the middle of AIT or you're in can I change my mos.
- [57:06]
A
So it is, it's. I don't think you could have that process any other way, but it. It's just an unfortunate part of, of that process. But as always, that's. That's why I love our special operations is a volunteer military. There is one way out. And if you want. If you want it bad enough, there's always an option. And just like you Back. Back to your story. Case in point. Even though the. It was a little bit different because it was a, A waiver issue.
- [57:38]
B
Yeah.
- [57:38]
A
The. But if it wasn't outside of the waiver issue, you would have made it into sf. But even though that was a roadblock, you. You still went Somewhere else.
- [57:46]
B
Yeah.
- [57:47]
A
So let's get back onto your road to. To isa. When you first show up there, did. I'm imagining through the. The training. Once you get selected, you go to the training course. How long is the training course roughly?
- [58:05]
B
So our OTC is almost 11 months.
- [58:09]
A
Wow.
- [58:10]
B
Yeah. Yeah, because it's, you know, I think it's because. So everybody's got a job. Right. You like, you guys are very CQB focused. Right. We're kind of in our own work, sort of like a ODA in a singular person. Right. So we're expected to have. You have trade skills, you have to have SIGINT abilities, you have to have some level of human abilities, and then you also have to have a tactical ability in order to survive within these environments. So our OTC is essentially. It's a great job of preparing you for the actual operations. To the point. To be honest, I was extremely impressed with the level of training. If you understand what happens in clandestine. In covert operations. Like what if you were to imagine what the CIA does to how to train that within the United States. The fact that we were able to do that and basically without actually being in outside of the country, we replicated that. So it was impressive. You learned so much stuff. You know, we basically. Even from a humid level, Even in the SI squadron, everybody's trained to pretty much an ASOT Level 3 level. You have intense. Majority of the course is tradecraft and you know, minus our one month long at Camp Dawson, you know, do our tackle phase, which I learned I am not that great at land.
- [59:36]
A
So Camp Dawson's funny. It's. It's a hard place to. To land nav. And equally a little bit easier because when you do land nav at I can't McCall. It's pretty flat.
- [59:50]
B
It is.
- [59:50]
A
So you don't get a lot of terrain features, a lot of contour lines to read off of. So at least you got that going for you.
- [59:58]
B
Yeah. And luckily I didn't have to worry about the stress that I was inside a selection. So that allowed me to like, look at my map and not just like, oh, I. If I don't do do this, my career is over. Right.
- [60:08]
A
So unfortunately, the trade off with contour lines is, is elevation. So the map reading gets a little bit easier. But now you got to deal with the terrain.
- [60:18]
B
Yeah. The brambles.
- [60:19]
A
Yeah. So did you feel like you. When you were. When you were done with that? And I'm going to correlate this to an oda and, and, and even my job at the Unit. When you graduate the Q course, you're a master of the basics, and it really takes you a few more years to really be a Green Beret, what you would expect a Green Beret to be. You get to go through some cephalics. You get to go to sniper school. You get to go to level two. You really start to learn your advanced skills at the unit. I mean, you definitely are prepared to go work at a. At a. At A squadron. But you find out real quick when you get there, when. When you leave doing CQB for, like, seven, eight months every day. You're really good at it, but you're really good at it compared to your classmates.
- [61:17]
B
Yeah.
- [61:18]
A
And where you came from and where you're at. Yeah. And then you go across the hall and you find out real quick there's another. I'm not. I'm not really there yet. Like, I. I can barely do this job, but I've got some. Some things to do.
- [61:31]
B
Yeah.
- [61:33]
A
Did they prepare you to hit the ground running, or is it because it's a little bit of a. Of a different aspect? Did you know everything? I shouldn't say you didn't know everything, but do you feel like you could hit the ground running and accomplish most things that they would have asked of you?
- [61:47]
B
I would think so. I will tell you that. And I'll get to this a second. There is actually one exception to where. And I will get to that second. But a lot of what we're doing, especially when it comes from working in Alias, there's a lot of nuance that goes into working out in the real world. Right. You can only recreate so much in the United States, but when you're dealing with on the ground, you know, doing those type of operations in those countries with that dialect, with, you know, interacting with the specific customs and how you even conduct yourself could give away your cover. So that's almost impossible to recreate in training. So I would say that that one is definitely the farthest when you are very little prepared, but there's very little they can do. So when you get to the unit, when you get to the unit and you get to your detachments, you get your troops, get your detachments, and then you are quickly taken under by the senior operatives of like, hey, okay, this is the mission you're going on, because also that we. We have missions all over the world. So you get to your particular attachment, you get your team, and then you're like, okay, this is the next mission. It's going to this country. All right? You get with a senior operative who just came from there, and you're like, okay, these are the things that you need to worry about. And then tactically, you know, we were trained, we gave us a good foundation. But especially for somebody who was in the tackle detachment, I got the best part of my training, what I'd come down to, either with you or blue, and we would do as much sort of like training alongside them in order to be able to be there alongside them, not doing the shooting, but, you know, being enough to where we could keep up and not get in the way. Right. So the one exception to this is the SIGINT side of things. Right. So the one thing that ISA does amazing, and I think one of the reasons why they're so successful, especially the SIGINT side of the house, is that they put so much of their effort, is that they have an entire team team that goes around the world. They find the latest and greatest technology, and they then come back and they are then the next instructors in the schoolhouse. So when you come out of. Of OTC and you are typically. And they make this joke the most, the people who are the best in the second side of things are the ones who just came from the schoolhouse. So that is the one exception. But that's only because of technology changes so quickly. And I think it even sort of exponentially increased the speed at what it. I think. What is it? I don't know if it's called. There's a law for this. It's not like Ohm's law. There's some law that dictates of let's how CPU processors get faster over a certain amount of time. I digress. But. So it's hard for even the unit members to stay up on it. So usually the guys who come out of ODC are up and up on the latest and greatest technology. And then the hardest part is then once you're in the unit and you're between all your trips and all your professional development schools, and you have to like, find the time to be like, oh, what's the latest and greatest technology? Which you actually end up going over to the schoolhouse and you sit in on OTC classes.
- [64:45]
A
Yeah.
- [64:45]
B
And that's like, one of the best ways that we created to stay on top of emerging technologies.
- [64:52]
A
Yeah, that's. That's interesting. And. And it's unique to. To that job because it's so technology focused.
- [65:00]
B
It is.
- [65:00]
A
And technology changes all the time. You know, when I'm overseas, I'm not. I'm not falling behind on Anything. In fact, that's probably where we're, we're becoming our best.
- [65:12]
B
Yeah.
- [65:13]
A
And it is, it is. Never thought about it, you know, like that, that you guys can be too operational to somewhat your, your detriment because you'll, you'll fall behind on the technology aspect of it.
- [65:27]
B
Yeah. And that's probably one of the hardest parts of that, that particular discipline within that job.
- [65:33]
A
So when you finally get to the unit and you're, you're ready to do your job now again, you go to do the SI side of the house, correct?
- [65:41]
B
Yes.
- [65:43]
A
How, how long did you spend on your first team and doing that job?
- [65:47]
B
So I was actually. So there is a tactical detachment. The unit's tactical detachment actually exists within the SI squadron. And typically to get to that detachment, you have to be a senior guy. You have to be in the unit for at least three years, kind of, I would say draw a parallel to maybe the recce guys.
- [66:07]
A
Right.
- [66:08]
B
And. But I was identified early on in otc that I was being looked at to being brought over to the tactical detachment almost immediately. So I would say I was in a normal troop for about eight months before I was moved over. So I got moved over probably about two and a half years prior to what most people get to do.
- [66:28]
A
Okay.
- [66:30]
B
So. Which was amazing because when you. We don't do free fall during otc, we do it out once we get out. And all the operatives get to go to. Get to go to Free Fall. But you're put on an oml, you know, the, the order which you're going to. And it's usually dictated when you left of tc, but if you're in a tactile attachment, you go straight to number one. And I was in freefall basic course three months after I got into the tactical Dashboard. So a lot of the guys I went to OTC with didn't go to Free Fall for probably about three more years.
- [67:01]
A
Oh, really?
- [67:02]
B
Yeah.
- [67:02]
A
That's a long time.
- [67:03]
B
And then, and then we were very aggressive. So I was. And then I was in Free Fall Jump Master within a year of that.
- [67:09]
A
Okay.
- [67:09]
B
So probably within 18 months I already had free fall jump master over 200 jumps, non standard everything. And if I would have stayed in the tackle attachment longer, I would have went. I would have went tandem. I would have went to tandem school as well. But, you know, so I did that for about a few years. And the greatest part for me was the main mission for the tactical detachment is getting to support both Delta Force and SEAL Team 6. So I got to come Down. I got to be integrated with the teams. And you know, we. Within, specifically within the squadrons, we actually spent most of our time with the RECCE guys. And we even got on the jort cycle with you guys and spent a lot of time, didn't. I would even say we spent most of our time at Green or Blue more than we did even being at Orange.
- [67:55]
A
And you probably didn't complain much about that, did you?
- [67:57]
B
I did not. Because, you know, in hindsight, I. I
- [68:03]
A
like to hear that.
- [68:04]
B
I feel like you. There's different personalities of different units. There's different personalities of different squadrons.
- [68:10]
A
Absolutely.
- [68:11]
B
I quickly realized, probably within that first year of working with both Green and Blue and being at Orange, that my personality fit better at Green. And to the point that I made some really good friends down at Green. Chris, Vallejo, Taylor, and even got a personal invitation from a number of the RECCE members at Sea Squadron to come to selection because they thought I would be a good fit for the unit. And that, to me is probably one of the greatest compliments I could ever get in my life. Would I have made it? Who knows? I don't know. But they thought that I was at least could have given a shot. And that's honestly, in that type of organization, the level, the ability that CAG has is just like, I couldn't have asked for a barrier compliment. And that's also the other thing is when I was down there, you get to see, you know, coming from SF, the nine day difference between a Tier 2 and Delta is just crazy. I remember one of the first experiences that we came down, we had just gone down there and they're like, hey, oh, we're doing a run on an airplane tonight. And I got to sit there and watch it. And how quickly you guys took that thing down. I turned to my buddy Kevin. I was like, what the is going on here? That's magic.
- [69:30]
A
It really is.
- [69:30]
B
Yeah.
- [69:32]
A
It's funny you say that because
- [69:37]
B
you
- [69:37]
A
don't realize it as an assaulter because you're just worried about your piece of the pie. You're just worried about your door. You're just worried about not tripping on the way into the aircraft and embarrassing your team. You don't really get to see it holistically. And if you're around long enough, you'll get an opportunity for various reasons to sit inside an aircraft and actually watch it. Which is really weird because the first time I got to watch it, I assaulted an airplane 100 times. And then, then I actually watch it. And I never thought I mean, I. I knew we were good. Yeah. I never thought we weren't good. But it wasn't until I watched it for myself from the inside that I realized, wow, I did not know it was that violent. I didn't know it was that quick. I didn't know people came from every angle. And there's really no way to track what's going on right now.
- [70:31]
B
Like, how do you take on an aircraft that size in seconds?
- [70:35]
A
Yeah, it's. It's crazy. But. And as. And as good as they are about that, and they will come out on top. I hope. I hope they never have to do it, because end of the day, a tubular assault is just someone. Someone's getting shot.
- [70:51]
B
Yeah.
- [70:51]
A
You know, they can't stop us all, but someone. Someone's taken around. And that is a mentality you're told over and over and over again. Some. Someone. Someone's. Someone's getting it. So just go ahead and accept that and. And don't be surprised when the guy in front of you falls, because it's gonna happen.
- [71:08]
B
Yeah.
- [71:09]
A
But it's. It's weird now, like, really thinking about it, because it's. It's. It's a reality. At the time, you're like, okay, you don't really think about it, but you. But now when I look back at the thing, I'm like, thank God. I hope those guys never do it.
- [71:22]
B
Yeah.
- [71:22]
A
But trust me, the guys are there now, don't care. They're like, all right, well, if we do it, we do it. Yeah, we'll crush it.
- [71:26]
B
Yeah. They give you guys the impossible mission for.
- [71:29]
A
They do. Well, I love that. They had a good experience with. With us. Did you go to Jump Master through blue?
- [71:41]
B
I did, yep. So, yeah. So I went through free fall Jump Master at Up at Virginia beach with blue up until team six. And, you know, from there. At this point, I'd been spending probably the first six months of my time at the tactical detachment with green, specifically with Sea Squadron. And now it was my time to get a little. A little experience of going on in blue. And I definitely got to see the cultural differences between blue and green and obviously orange mixed in there as well. But there is definitely a difference between blue and green in my personal opinion.
- [72:19]
A
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A
I don't. I don't. If it's too bad, we'll keep it roughly above board. What's. What's. What would you say the differences.
- [73:27]
B
So I would say the biggest differences is how Blue looks at their support. So Green. In my experience, Green typically looks at their support as enablers. They see them as like, you guys are an asset. You guys help us do our mission. It was the general view that Blue kind of looks at their support as like, you guys are sort of a hindrance, maybe a necessary evil. And the biggest indication of this that I saw was that when I dealt, when I worked with the support guys at Green, they were, like, really excited. They loved their assaulters.
- [74:05]
A
Yeah.
- [74:05]
B
Blues support guys live in fear of their assaulters.
- [74:13]
A
I'm not, I'm not completely surprised to hear that. I'll, I'll, I'll stick up for, for the boys at the beach a little bit in this aspect. Yeah. What. I can't remember his name. The Ranger that's a sniper. And he's, he's gone on interviews and has not hidden the fact that SEAL Team six was not good to, to the Rangers. Yep. Now, I won't say which squadron, but it, it really seemed to be like that squad because I've had other guys work for other squadrons and have, you know, very, very good experiences. Yeah, but, but you're right. Regardless of good and bad experiences over there, as a support guy, you. You will not have a bad experience over at the unit because we, we love our support guys. They're the best support you could ever ask for. And not that anyone would ever have to tell you this or make you be nice to them, because it might cost your job, but I believe it would. If you're. If you're rude enough to a support guy, I think you'd lose your job over it.
- [75:24]
B
Yeah. But it's par for the course of the other place.
- [75:28]
A
And I don't know how to package this correctly, but both things can be true at the same time.
- [75:35]
B
Yeah.
- [75:37]
A
Is because we're so pro. Support. Yes, we are. Don't. Don't mess with our support guys.
- [75:42]
B
Yeah.
- [75:43]
A
2. It's not just about the support guys. If you're willing to treat someone like that, I can't trust you anywhere else around the world. If you're working for an embassy, whoever else you're working with representing the unit, we. That is a toxic trait. And we. We. We won't tolerate it.
- [76:03]
B
Yeah.
- [76:04]
A
So.
- [76:04]
B
And I will say this, like, you know, in the operations I did do with Blue, they are. They are amazing at what they do. Like, you know, they are. You know, it's when you train at your skill every single day and you have the funding and the ability. Like, they are. They are amazing at what they do. The biggest divide I did see of a particular support group was between the assaulters and the boat guys. And so the. It's my understanding that it's the only support guys that are able to go to Freefall are their boat guys. And so when I was in the Freefall Jump Master course.
- [76:38]
A
Okay.
- [76:39]
B
Probably half of them were frogmen, your salters, and half of them were boat guys. And the animosity between these two groups was pretty apparent. Like, you could see insults going on during JMPIs.
- [76:52]
A
Yeah.
- [76:53]
B
Yeah. It.
- [76:54]
A
It is somewhat funny. It can go too far or gets awkward, but it is funny to see the. The pecking order play out sometimes.
- [77:02]
B
Oh, it is.
- [77:02]
A
Especially when it's not your unit.
- [77:04]
B
Exactly.
- [77:04]
A
You just get to watch it play out.
- [77:06]
B
It was. It was. It was probably one of the most entertaining courses that I've ever been to.
- [77:12]
A
So you're on the tactical team now. Yeah. Word. Does that. Does that mission set have a more particular focus to it or something different that it.
- [77:25]
B
So, yeah, so it's mainly us providing, especially at this time. Like there was nobody who did SIGINT probably better than we did. And so we brought a level of capability not just because we were like the best at sigint, but also we were just trained to a higher level than the SIGINT guys who were the support guys. We were on par as much as we could be with infiltration methods and how to be operatives. And so when we did mesh in with the recce teams. We were, we were definite assets and we, we never got in their way. We had, you know, we have our own physical standard of the unit. It's not quite as high as yours, but it's close enough. And that's one of the reasons why even within the unit you get selected to be in that tackle. Because we don't send goobers down there, right? Like when we first came down to reintroduce us as an organization to you guys, we sent me in a 6 foot 5 guy, right? Like we're, we're, we're putting our, we're putting our best foot forward.
- [78:22]
A
Yeah, just £500 of SIGINT capability between the two of you.
- [78:28]
B
And then we also, we, you know, we, we, we, we, it's all about interoperability. Like we, like our arms room is every weapon that you guys carry, every weapon that blue carries. And then so when we show up, like we have kit bags that are like, if we're going for blue, we grab this one. If we're going to green, we grab this bag and we brings those particular weapons with that particular ambition. Because when we're there, right? And usually it's two of us, we go out in two man teams. And when we do, like, especially because we were on the Jord cycle and we even a part of the oh, 300 package, right? And so when we do that and we have our own private airplane that when we get that call out, whether it's blue or green, that goes to that particular airfield, right? So when we show up, we, we don't have enough room to bring our own ammunition, right? And so we have to have the weapon systems and also the other types of gear that mesh in with yours. So it's just the whole thing was to be seamless, to be, you know, an asset added in whatever way that we could to support it. And then also we had other advantages to access through different programs and different analysts. And you know, we have an entire organization who if we're like, hey, these guys need this particular piece of information. I have an entire rooms full of analysts who will get whatever information that we could. So you know, we get up and then also at that point, because we have to communicate, we're also our own 18 echoes at this point. So we're also communicating back through our own specific networks to do our own things in order to get it back to you guys who were then there with.
- [80:02]
A
So yeah, I don't think you have to be nice about it. You guys are the best at se. Again that's, that's, that's how we view you guys. Yeah, we, we always viewed you guys as, as the best America has to offer in the SIGINT realm. At one point your focus was Iranian CODS force. Correct.
- [80:23]
B
So I was probably been about three years at the tactical detachment and the summer of 2014 ISIL invaded Iraq. So at this point I was actually at some random training in Florida and I got a call basically hey, we're going back into Iraq. We are looking at who is essentially the best at this point for that particular mission. And I was one of the few Farsi linguists. I obviously had a tactical background but I also had some of the probably of anybody the most amount of experience in Iraq. So they called me, they're like hey, we're cutting your. As soon as you're done with that course you're coming back and you're going to be a team leader. And this point I just made sense. Seen our operative status probably like a year prior and so I got to lead my very first team into Iraq and we were there. So we deployed with a troop from Green. I don't remember exactly what squadron it was. I think it might have been Sea squadron but we were co located with them at the Baghdad embassy. And from there while your guys mission was to deal with ISIS and the air campaign, ours was to deal with the CODES Force and the Iranian influence that was now which we had predicted that it was going to take over. This was to go down. And Colson Soleimani, the head of the head of the. I think he was the head of the CODES force. Yeah, he was head of the CODES Force was spearheading this particular situation because he thought that while there was Iran had a bunch of influence because of the Shias were a big part of the government. He was going to use this as an opportunity to save Iraq and by saving Iraq basically taking over as a kind of like we did this for you, now let us lead your country and you do what we tell you to do. So I was there to help combat that particular problem.
- [82:28]
A
Yeah, the. If it may have got put back on people's radar about the KOOTS force because of the Iranian war that that's kicked off here of late. But they, they may not know about it and even with, you know, Suleimani Jr. Suleimani being killed, it, it got brought up then I don't think people really understood how bad they were and how much they either directly or indirectly had to do with American deaths.
- [83:03]
B
Absolutely so Iran understands like the SO one, especially nowadays. So when SO the first, you know, I know people get this confused. So there are two ayatollahs. There's been two ayatollahs. There'S Khomeini, who was the first one, and then there was Khamenei, who is the current one who just got killed.
- [83:25]
A
Right.
- [83:25]
B
So Khomeini was the president when Khomeini was. And he was a big fan of the irgc because the IRGC was created because they didn't trust the normal Iranian military. So Iranian military has actually has two different militaries, the normal military and then the one to watch over the other one because they don't trust it. And so. But when Khomeini came to power, he really was a big fan of the irgc and he increased. Almost every decision he ever did was to increase the power of the IRGC to the point where when it was first started, I think at the end of the ran, Iraq war may have been 10, 15,000 members. It is close to over 150,000 members. And now I or the IRGC not only is larger, it actually controls majority of the economic structure within the country. So the IRGC is so embedded that if you, in order to take down the current Islamic Republic, you have to take down the irgc, because they are the government and the infrastructure of that country now. And within the irgc, because the IRGC has its own army, has its own navy, has its own air force, might even have its own coast guard, I don't quite remember. But they have their own intelligence organization and it's known as the CODES Force. And this is sort of like amalgamation of their version of their CIA, their special forces, everything like that. They do have another intelligence organization that does exist outside of the irgc. It's the acronym is mois, I can't exactly remember. But it's their civilian intelligence service and sort of looks like their CIA, FBI. And you have the IRGC, which has their military. But because of Khomeini likes the irgc, the IRGC intelligence services have actually gotten bigger and have taken over. And of course there's a rivalry. But specifically the Codes Force, who was commanded until 2000, I think he commanded from 1998 to 2020. And the reason why the Codes Force is a world threat is because Solmani did a number of different things really well. He was a leader. He was a charismatic leader. And if you ever see pictures of him, we always used to say he looks like the Iranian version. Do you remember from the Dos Equis commercial. The world's most interesting man. If you see a picture, especially certain angles, he looks like the Iranian version.
- [85:51]
A
I'll put a picture up of the
- [85:53]
B
world's most interesting man. But when he would go and he would go and like, for example, when he'd go to the Shia militias, he wouldn't wear body armor. He would be there and he would go to the front, he would be standing in forward positions and he'd be like he was leading from the front. And he built rapport within the Islam community. That is the main reason why they probably reached peak power in 2018 with the combination of their influence in Lebanon, their influence in Yemen with the Houthis attacking ships in the lanes. You had the overwhelming control of the Iraqi government with all the different Shia militias. And then you also had their ability in Syria, which almost at this point was kind of unchecked, and we kind of refer it to as the Pax Ironica, which was the closest time that basically Iran had created its sort of its empire and they had an unhimitted weapons line from Iran to Iraq to Syria, all the way to Lebanon. And luckily, through your efforts and a couple of hours, we were able especially to punk holes in the Syria problem. And then in 2020, somebody, you know, former President Donald Trump or existing now, had the cojones to put a missile into Kasseim Khomeini. And that has actually helped in a number of different ways because his. His predecessor, I think it's. His name is Amir. Amir, I'd have to. But he's been serving. He was his deputy to the enduring time. He does not have the same level of charisma and the relation with the Arabs. And because of that, other things have started to fall apart. The. The Shia militias in Iraq don't really see him as like, he's not Kassem Soleimani. And because he's not that same guy, he doesn't have that same level of influence. The Shi militias have actually started to deny refusal to refuse orders, but ignore what Iran wants because they see they have their own political, you know, they're Iraqis, they want. They have their own political means. And they're like, okay, maybe doing everything that Iran wants to do is not a great idea. But when Soul Mandy was in charge, everybody was in lockstep. But now with his predecessor, so I think one of the biggest hits that we could have done it was killing him. And 2020 was one of the best first links in the chain that we cut.
- [88:28]
A
Yeah, Absolutely. It's blows my mind when, when that hit happened, how long it took because we, we had known that he's been a problem for years. Yeah, he's, he's never hidden it. And, and we've, and we've known the amount of American deaths are directly connected to him. And he just walked around a free man. Absolutely never in fear. Yeah.
- [89:02]
B
He actually had a slogan that he would talk of whenever he was talking to the media. He would actually say that. I try to remember the exact phrasing that he would say, but he would basically, he would say, America won't do it, basically calling us out almost every single time. And he did this for years. Years. And to be honest, he wasn't, you know, until 2020. He wasn't, he wasn't wrong and right. And I can tell you from personal experience, we knew where he was at all times from at least 2014 to 2020. And somebody finally, you know, Trump finally decided to pull the trigger in 2020.
- [89:43]
A
I think that's what a lot of Americans are, are tired of, just not knowing that there's a problem and not doing anything about it. Or worse yet, America saying that they're going to do something about it and then just never doing anything about it. You know, we, we have a clip on our Instagram of Biden, Kamala Harris, Hillary Clinton, all of them saying, you know, answering questions about Iran, basically warning Iran, saying that they will remove. Don't do it, don't, don't cross America. But you're not going to do anything about it. Yeah. You know, the, the Ayatollah said death to America for, for 40 years. Well, someone took him serious.
- [90:31]
B
Yeah.
- [90:32]
A
And I think the next time someone chants death to America, maybe they'll think twice.
- [90:37]
B
Absolutely.
- [90:38]
A
The next time they, they supply terrorist organizations to target our military, they're going to think twice.
- [90:46]
B
Yeah.
- [90:46]
A
Because we will do something about it, and we should.
- [90:49]
B
And you come down to what is deterrence? Because when you, when you put down red lines and your enemies cross over it, not only do you stop them from whatever they were doing, you embolden you sure do other people. But when you do, are you a man of your word? And then you around, you find out, not only do you kind of solve that immediate problem. Right. You also, without knowing, you probably keep maybe 10 other problems from popping up just because they're afraid that these people will do exactly what they say and they're not afraid to show people what exactly we're made of and that we are people of our word.
- [91:34]
A
And I'm not, I'm not just being an over, just a Trumpy over this. I'm giving credit to Trump because he deserves it. In this particular area, I would give a Democratic president the same amount of endorsement for doing these actions as well. I could care less about red or blue when it comes to this country. I just want what's best for this country. And without going into too much details, it talking about deterrence.
- [92:14]
B
Yeah.
- [92:16]
A
I was almost on an operation one time to save an American who a lowly cell of a particular terrorist group in a certain country saw an American service member and decided we're going to take them. Well, when it went up the chain that hey, they were looking for kudos, like hey, we have an American. And when I want the chain, they were like, release him right now. Do you know who the President is?
- [92:50]
B
And do.
- [92:50]
A
And do you not do. You just stirred up the hornets nest. Release them right now. And thankfully we didn't even have to go on that mission because out of fear of America, they released them. Yeah, you have to. That's all they understand. They only understand fear. They only understand a strong arm. Every American should be able to go anywhere in this world knowing that no one's going to touch them because if they do, only certain death is, is going to come. Not, not a reward, money.
- [93:22]
B
There was a time when I would say probably during the beginning of the Iraq War, the height of the Iraq war, we actually intercepted communications from a group of kidnappers and they specifically said from one cell to the other, yeah, get whoever you're gonna get, but leave the Americans alone.
- [93:42]
A
Right.
- [93:42]
B
Because at this time, you know, I think especially because people are like, Bush was on a bit of a tirade, so. But you know, it's there. We've seen evidence of it. Or like, hey, take whoever you want. Americans are not worth it. They're not worth kidnapping for money. And especially because this particular organization wasn't a religious or kidnapping organization. And they're like, it's, it's bad for business. Right? And you know, when you, when you establish that level of deterrence, you, you know, you, you protect your own people throughout the world. And you know, I feel like we might slightly be getting back to that. I don't know, we'll see.
- [94:19]
A
Yeah, well, I know we're back to it right now, but if, if the whole country has bought in is, or enough of the country has bought in is yet to be seen. Because you know, every election will be a hard fought election until, until common sense comes back to this Country.
- [94:40]
B
Yeah.
- [94:42]
A
When. When you're done with your. With your time there at. At some point, you know, you decide to go be a Blackhawk pilot. How does. How does that come about?
- [94:52]
B
So there was a number of different things that were going on. I see.
- [94:56]
A
Saw.
- [94:56]
B
I saw some shifts within the unit, especially. There was a couple blatant examples of toxic leadership going on combined with that. And I had a CW5. He was a CW5, I believe, of the unit at the time, was a legend. This guy was a Ranger, Green beret in the 80s, became a Blackhawk pilot, went to 1 60th, one of the helicopter pilots. I think he might have gotten like a Silver Star based on his actions in the Battle of Mogadishu. And. And then actually, I. He's actually was a Golden Knight too, as well. Right. And then eventually becomes. And then he's a pilot. He eventually ends up at the unit. And then now at this point, he is the CW5 of the unit. Awesome guy.
- [95:43]
A
He.
- [95:43]
B
And he likes me. And he came up to me one time in the gym, and he asked me what I was doing. I was like, oh, I'm doing legs. He's like, no, with life, you idiot. And. And I'm like, well, I'm gonna do what most people do and, you know, stay here as long as I can, because it was good money and, you know, great life, you know, living in a nice metropolitan city, which I really enjoyed. And, you know, like, where else can you recreate this life in the civilian world? Because you really can't. And then most of the guys, especially the tactical detachment, were going to ground branch, right? And we were hearing like, hey, we get to finally get to do everything that we're wanting to do. They don't have the restrictions that we do. It's amazing, you know, maybe only do it for three years and then leave, you know, but that was essentially plan.
- [96:25]
A
Yeah.
- [96:25]
B
And he. He blatantly just looked me right in the eye and he said, don't do that. I'm like, why? He's like, well, he's like. He's like, look at your seniors. You know, look at the ones have been here for 20 years. You know, how many of them are divorced? You know, what's.
- [96:41]
A
What.
- [96:42]
B
How much of the relationship have they had with their children? And then he's like, also, he's like, you've done this. Like, you've been in this sort of community for a number ones. He's like, you're senior operative. You've been leading teams. He's like, I Can tell you from my vast experience. Which he did.
- [96:56]
A
Which he did.
- [96:57]
B
He did, right?
- [96:58]
A
Yeah.
- [96:58]
B
Like he, he was even on a dive team in SF and everything like this. This guy had every badge just ridiculous. His dress uniform was stupid and he was like, go. It doesn't get any better. Is like when you get to senior status and especially when you're taking off like the missions and you're doing admin stuff, like it's. You would think that you should get more leeway when you're doing things you don't. And he's like, but have you ever wanted to fly? And it's like, who, who has it? He's like, dude, the army will literally let you the train. You know how to, you don't have to pay to get your, your flying license. And so combination of that and the other things that were going on in the unit and that's when I decided to put my warrant packet, you know, went off to flight school and you know, that was a bit of a culture adjustment, you know, I bet.
- [97:47]
A
Yeah.
- [97:48]
B
You know, it's funny because when I got there, I've never, I've always been mentally strong. Never. Like I, especially in my own head, like I've never, that's never would always be one of my strengths. I can think myself out of any negative hole for the first time in my life. And I, I will admit this here today, that two days into warrant officer course and I, and let me preface this real quick. Warrant officer school is the first three hours are a attempt at basic training again where they smoke you for three hours. So. And it's a poor even version of that, let me tell you, Warrant officer school is not hard. I, for the first time in my life, the second day of warrant officer school, I wanted to quit. Right? So. And I'll tell you why. Okay, so outside of SF warrants, all warrant officers come to Fort Rucker, Alabama, right? So you were in there not just with aviation warrants, you're in there with cook warrants, you're in there with support warrants. Right, right. And all my cadre of the, of the war officer, but not in the schoolhouse because you actually spend majority of your time, war office in the schoolhouse. We're all cooking supply warrants. Right. And I got nothing against cook and supply people. Right, but spending your entire life in sof, right? And then being in, you know, a tier one unit and then coming and hearing some of the things that were coming out of these guys mouths, I was like, I left my organization for this. And some of the most ridiculous takes I think I've ever heard. Luckily, first day of school, this is like a third or fourth day in warrant officer school. You start going to the schoolhouse. And one of my first instructors, who's a history instructor was this guy looked like Jason Statham. And he was a 1/60th pilot. And I believe his claim to fame is he is the youngest CW5 in Army history. I think he achieved. I think he did street deceit, which allows you. You can actually join the army to become a warrant officer straight off the thing. And I think he achieved CW5 at like 32, 33 years old. And this guy was like a jiu jitsu black belt, like I said, looked like Jason Statham. And he alone was like, okay. I found my people, like the aviation community, maybe not quite as good as soft, but it's definitely the next best branch within the Army. And he was so amazing. He told me everything I had for. And then I actually had him pin me on my. On my. For my warrant officer graduation. So.
- [100:10]
A
Really, I didn't know you could. I didn't even know you could do that. That's. That is news to me. But that's not, you know, outside of my. Outside of my wheelhouse. I'll tell you this. I was a senior guy on my ODA before I was. So before I was ever in charge of, of a helicopter of, you know, on the assault. Like, Brent, you. You know, you're. You're the. You're the lead on this helicopter, which allowed me to plug in to the, to the helicopter. And the pilot was running the co pilot through, like, some sort of, like, test for him to be a flight lead. You know, just kind of like, like going through some OJT stuff. And he asked him about the armament that was on the helicopter. And he starts. He goes, he goes to his little board that was. I think it was on his leg because he had written it all down. And there's one that he kind of can't read that was actually a little impressive. He's like, we got this, this, this, this. I think we have that. And the guy goes, you think, do we have it or not? He's like, well, I'm not sure. And he just leans into this guy. Like, I have never heard officers talk to each other because I only hear officers talk to each other. Very cordial.
- [101:32]
B
Yeah.
- [101:33]
A
You know, I get. I get to see one officer on my. On my oda. And he talks to the, to the company commander, very cordially. Yeah, I couldn't believe how disrespectful he was this co pilot. I was like, oh, this is a different side of officers that I have not seen that have been a good chewing out for any enlisted man.
- [101:53]
B
Absolutely.
- [101:54]
A
And he just like, it seemed like the smallest thing. I'm sure he could explain why, but it was, it was definitely unique to see that. I don't know if that's aviation specific or just officers forgot there was an enlisted guy on the comms. But it was definitely a unique behind the scenes look.
- [102:14]
B
Absolutely. So you quickly see why that is specifically in aviation. You'll see officers yelling at each other. And a couple of things that you quickly realize is that one rank means nothing specifically in army aviation. It's not exactly that way in the other branches, but in army aviation because typically, well, one, the army is the only branch that lets warrant officers fly. And then because of how the army does its sort of command and rank structure and progression, commission officer pilots in the army are actually usually your least experienced pilots. Yeah, it's not that way. It's actually the exact opposite. In the Air Force, Navy and Marine pilots, usually your score, your. If your 06 is in the bird with you, they're usually the most experienced pilot. Right. If you are in an army helicopter and AN06 climbs in the cockpit, be very afraid. Okay. And I'll explain why. So warrants, that's our only job is what you know. So when you. Luckily command means nothing. Once you're in the cockpit is who has the most experience. Who's then is the pilot in command.
- [103:27]
A
Okay.
- [103:27]
B
So typically whenever an officer get commission officer gets in, he's been spending most of his time commanding, not really flying. So he will usually be paired with one of the more senior warrant officers who like hey, sir, do you remember how this works? Let me walk you through this. Okay. So but at the end of the day, it's all about who's got the most experience. And because aircraft and flying aircraft and based off the FAA is so particular about things like because especially in helicopters, right. It has no glide profile. So if you Suddenly change weight 100F, 200 pounds, they have to know because just a few hundred pounds may completely change their mission profile. You may completely change one. Do they even have enough power to get to the objective? Do they have enough fuel? All these things change. So when you change a very any sort of variability as a pilot to what you, what you are flying, it changes everything. So if someone comes in is like, hey, I don't know if we have this or not. This mission is not going off until we know whether or not that is on board. So you quickly. That is a thing in aviation.
- [104:36]
A
Yeah, that's. How'd you like your time in aviation? How did you find that, that training, it's got to be drastically different or maybe very similar because
- [104:50]
B
the risk is still very much there, especially being a helicopter pilot, right? So one of the things that you, you, you learn quickly in probably your first few weeks of helicopter, you know, it's Army's hel. Army aviation is based around helicopters, right? There is like one fixed wing aircraft that you can fly, but everybody, even those pilots have to still go. Have to fly helicopters, right? Is you learn. Actually, you learn this before you actually get to flight school. You actually learn this in SERE school, right? Which is funny because in a slight tangent, because I was not a Green Beret, I never went to CRC. But when you go to the tier one units, they send you to advanced SEER schools, right? SEER 400, SEER 240. I probably went to three different SEAR schools. Plus there is, you know, you know, there is another seer event along my path. We won't really get into that, but so I'd basically been to almost four different SEER events. And so when I show up to. And I actually tried to argue that I even showed my certificates, I've been to advanced Sears, but they're like, you haven't been to searc? So I go to searc, right. So luckily I actually, I'm probably one of the best people in SERE school because I know exactly what you're.
- [106:04]
A
How you're supposed to be.
- [106:04]
B
Yeah, I know exactly.
- [106:05]
A
Yeah.
- [106:06]
B
But the first week of CRC is classroom time and we're doing case studies about pilots. And you notice that every case study we're doing is about an airplane pilot. And you know, I raised my hand, you know, I'm like, you know, sir, when are we going to learn about helicopter pilots and how they, you know, escape and evade? He's like, because they don't. I'm like, what do you mean? He's like, because they die, you know, helicopters. And you learn, you learn why this is when you get into flights. Cool. Which is helicopters are. We're not one. Not meant to fly. I'll tell you this. And it's. They have zero glide profile. And if you were to ever lose both engines, you have one thing you can do and one thing you only you can do. It's called an auto rotation, right? Which is essentially. Okay, let's Just imagine you lose both engines, what an auto rotation is. I'm now going to put the helicopter into a dive, because, mind you, there is no gloid profile. So I. If I lose power, I'm a brick and I will fall to the earth and then I will die. So I will put the. I will put the helicopter into a nosedive. I will drop the collective, which changes the pitch of the blades. So it's going to be almost. And what I'm doing is I'm using relative wind and kinetic energy to spin my rotors up, right. I'm putting energy. I'm putting as much energy as I can in my rotors, right. And about, you know, 50 as close as you can to the get to the ground. And I've sped up as much as I can put enough kinetic energy into my rotors, I will then pull the nose up. At the last second, I will pull my collective all the way up, which will change the pitch blades. I will grab as much air. And you are hoping that you have caught enough air and enough cushion to when you crash, because you are going to crash, that you've done it enough that you don't die.
- [107:54]
A
Yeah, that's trying to slowly crash.
- [107:55]
B
Exactly.
- [107:56]
A
Which is an oxymoron.
- [107:58]
B
Yeah. So nose dive into pulling up at the last second and hopefully. So that's basically the only thing you can do. And then, you know, there's the issues of tail rotors. That's why most modern helicopters are being designed without tail rotors, because if that thing comes off. So without the tail rotor, the road, the way a rotor spins, it actually spins a fuselage around and it won't stop. And eventually get to the point where it hits terminal speed, it will actually shear itself off from the helicopter itself. And then you'll go like. Any time you've ever seen any helicopter lose a tail rotor, it's going down. There's nothing those pilots can do. So there's a lot of things. It's a capability which is awesome, but it created. Just to create that capability, it created a lot of issues when it came just to flight profiles, physics, aerodynamics. And so basically, when you go through flight school, you know, like with anything like OTCQ course, you even say, specifically flight school, you learn enough not to crash. Like, you do nine operations, it's like. But you don't learn how to do airborne operations. You learn how to do fries spies. You learn that all, like, later on in the unit. And this is also actually interesting because when I left. So when I did my warrant packet. The CW5 who did it was obviously a former 1 60th guy. He wrote my letter of recommendation. And when I told him that I got selected, he. He told me to call him. I'm like, okay. So I called him. I'm like, hey, what's going on? He's like, all right, like, I'm gonna tell you something, and I want you to be very clear about this. When you finish flight school, because you're coming from this organization, you are going to be given the opportunity to go straight to 1/60. They have a program or it's, you know, only I don't know how widely known it is. If you come from any of the Tier 2 or Tier 1 soft units, you are going to be allowed the opportunity to go straight to 1/60. And he said, when you, when they tell you this, when they come to you and like, hey, would you like to go straight to another 160th? He's very important. Tell them no. He's like. And I'll tell you why. Because when you leave flight school, you only basically know how not to crash your helicopter. 1/60, when you show up, they expect you to have already been to a unit, learn how to do spies, fries, airborne operations, everything, sling load, everything. They will make an exception for you. But that learning curve is drastically reduced. You're basically given a month, and if you can't attack it, it's a dog eat dog world and you might fail. And he's like, flying a helicopter is already stressful enough. And then as you combine it with, I'm learning all these new things, but also I need to keep up with the 1/60 standard. He's like, it's a level of stress you do not need. And mind you, this was a very accomplished pilot from the 160th, right? And then when I get to flight school, there's only one other soft guy there. It's. He was an 18 Charlie.
- [110:51]
A
Okay?
- [110:52]
B
And randomly, we were actually the two oldest people in flight school. I was the oldest. I actually had to get a waiver just for time and service.
- [110:58]
A
How old were you?
- [110:59]
B
I was 33 when I showed up. And even the first sergeant came during one of our first family redness briefs. And he goes, sir, sir. Mind you, I'm a little. Still being weird being called sir to the sir at this point, right? And he's like, oh, I just wanted to let you know I confirmed this. I'm like, what's up? For a start? And he's like, you're the oldest man in flight school. Congratulations. And he just walks away. Anyway, so I'm sitting next to. And I quickly became friends with this. This. This group beret. And we're sitting there and we're going through this thing and we're talking, and we somehow get on the subject of, you know, like, what we did in 160. He's like, oh, and by the way, my. My warrant told me not to do it. I'm like, oh, mine did too. So both of us were told by our. And his warrant was a formula 60th guy. Yeah, don't do this. Don't. It's not worth it. Just go to your unit, you know, learn how to fly, and then if you still want to at that point. But also when I was there, back at, like, the. The. When I was at Orange, I worked with E Squadron, you know, worked with the Virginia boys. So when you see the difference between those guys and 1/60, you know, that was where I kind of had my eyes set. And when I was going through the basic course where you learn how to fly the, uh, 72 Lakota, one of my instructors was a contractor, and he quickly learned who I was, mainly because I was. I had my freefall, my. My master free fall wings on my. My uniform.
- [112:21]
A
Yeah.
- [112:21]
B
Which may or may not should have done. He was like. We quickly got into it, and he quickly could tell where I came from. And so we started talking, and I found out that he was actually a contractor, but he also spent time back up in, you know, with the Virginia boys, you know, the. And so we quickly started talking, and I was like, okay, well, I'm glad I met you. That's the route I want to go. And he's like, okay. I was like, how do I get there? And this ended up determining which aircraft I ended up choosing. So he was like, all right, the quickest way you can get there is in a Blackhawk, because if you go the Apache route for a various number of different reasons, it's going to take you an extra two or three years to be out for the. For aviation to allow you to come in, go to selection for those guys, okay? He said, in a Blackhawk, you will be given the quickest opportunity. So after that. So when I graduated the basic course, that's why I ended up choosing my wish list. Whether or not they even look at my wish list, that's another fucking story. But, yeah, that's why I ended up choosing Blackhawks, with which. With my goal was to go that Route. Unfortunately, I ended up running into a few problems in flight school. First, it was Covid. I had a successful real estate business that basically started to go under because of the rules. I had, like, 30 rental properties up in Baltimore City. Tenants weren't paying. They didn't have to yet. But within six months, the mortgage companies were asking for their money, even though my tenants were paying. So I was going through a lot of financial difficulties. I was basically, in my eyes, my business was completely failing. And then my father and my sister died within the same year. And then during the Blackhawk course, I somehow had pissed off one of the instructors, and it was apparently his mission to get me kicked out of flight school. And he accused me of parking in the wrong parking lot. And they started a process of removing me from flight school. I had to go through a whole different number of things. I had to write letters to Congress. But this whole thing became altogether. I had at this point, and I realize this now, that I had tied my identity to these three different. To three different things, which is one, I was this former Tier one operative, Isaac. I was a pilot, and I was a successful businessman. And in a combination of my dad and my sister dying, these three things were no longer who I was. Like, they were no longer facts. This is no longer was. And because I tied my identity to it, I no longer knew who I was. And I'd never been depressed in my entire life. I've always had this sunny disposition. And I think because I'd never been depressed before, I didn't know how to deal with it. So I went into a dark hole. And I didn't talk to anybody because I was so embarrassed. Not only was I failing, but to me, because I wasn't. These things I could no longer. Like, how can my friends even talk to me if I was no longer these things that they look up to? So I went down this dark, dark hole, and I hit rock bottom. And to the point where I even made a plan. I decided I was going to commit suicide, and I made a plan. I was going to do it after my best friend's wedding, who was actually a bridesmaid for her wedding. And. And the only reason I didn't do it was because of my dog. My dog Cali. And she. Because at the time, obviously, I learned later that there is nothing more selfish than committing suicide. Because you think you're eliminating a problem that you have, but you're causing, like, almost generational trauma to anybody who's ever loved you.
- [116:00]
A
Absolutely.
- [116:01]
B
But this dog, who I'd rescued from Baltimore City, who had become the love of my life. Granted, she was a big part of my life, but I'm her world, and if I was to commit suicide, who am I to take the one thing in this, her favorite thing in the world? I'm her favorite human. Take that. And then where does she go? She goes to somebody else. All these different things. How horrible was that Was the reason why I didn't do it, because I didn't want my dog to be like, you know, live through this trauma. So I didn't do it. And then I just was like, okay, I'm gonna do one thing today that makes my life better. And I took one step, and this is. I'd already kind of been into the stoicism, but this is where I really used it. And I used the fundamental foundations of stoicism, of, like, there are things in this world that happen you cannot control. You have no control over that. What you have control is what you do when they happen.
- [116:58]
A
Absolutely.
- [116:59]
B
And I use stoicism to crawl my way out of that hole that I got into. And it is the reason why. It is, like, you know, my moral, my. It's just the foundation of who I am nowadays, which is why, you know, the YouTube channel is called the Stoic Viking, is because it has helped me immeasurably. And now when I look at that, because I realize that life, because I was so hurt by these failures, but then I realize now that failures are your pathway to success. Right? You don't learn anything from success. You only learn everything from failures. And now when I look at it, this was the biggest series of failures in my life, even to the point that I failed. I didn't even do it. End up becoming. And this is why I truly believe that was the defining moment of my life, who I became the person that I was meant to be. And I don't even regret it for a single sense. I'm actually happy that I went through it, obviously happy I didn't do it. And now that's a part of what I believe is my mission, which is to help other people find that sort of level of clarity. It's not just something you made. It's the privilege that you get to work with your hands. It's building something that serves a purpose, proof that you have the grit to keep going. At Timberland, we understand you take your craft seriously, and we do, too, which is why our products are built to the highest quality. We put in the work so you can perfect yours with purpose. In Every detail and crafted with intention. Timberland built on craft. Visit timberland.com to shop.
- [118:42]
A
It's crunch time at work and you need to bring wings to your workday. Visit redbull.com gettingitdone and answer a couple questions about your work style to get a Spotify customized playlist tuned to your productivity. Plus score a can of Red Bull on us while you go from to do to done. And remember, Red Bull gives you wings. Supplies are limited. Terms apply. Visit the website for more information. I said it before. I've. I've learned so much more from missions that went wrong than I ever learned from missions and went right. No one and I. I hate it for people who are going through it. And it never makes. Never makes it feel any better. Toxic leaders will mold you into a better leader if you. If you take that as an opportunity. I learned way more from bad leaders than I did good leaders. And the fact that bad leaders will leave a serious long lasting impression on you, that'll make you want to go. I'll never be like them.
- [119:49]
B
Yeah.
- [119:49]
A
I'll never treat someone like that. I'll never do that. And so it's there. There is, there isn't. There's no forging process without the hard times. Yeah. And to. Just like we talked about the beginning of this, it's. It's what you do with it.
- [120:07]
B
Exactly.
- [120:08]
A
Are you gonna. You're gonna break or you're gonna turn to something stronger?
- [120:10]
B
Yeah.
- [120:11]
A
Those are the two old. They're the only two options you have.
- [120:13]
B
Absolutely.
- [120:14]
A
And if breaking is. Is. Is an option. I know it sounds harsh. I'm not saying I don't get it. But you know, suicide is one of the most selfish things you could ever do in life. And you know, I'm almost joke or almost laugh when I heard you say it was my dog.
- [120:34]
B
Yeah. When.
- [120:36]
A
When the truth is that you realize how selfish it was. It was a selfless service to your dog. You find something. There is something that's. That's worth sticking around for. And if. And you actually don't have to look too far, you can find them. Yeah. And that's where I'm saying I get it.
- [120:55]
B
Yeah.
- [120:56]
A
You just, it's. You get so far down this hole it's hard to see any light. But. But it's there. Yeah, it's there.
- [121:07]
B
And because I had never experienced it myself because I, I've had like when I was at fifth group, one of our real. Actually one of our really good friends. It was a guy on a team within our Company. He was going through some problems with his girlfriend. And then he came over and I actually lived with the junior and the senior. Bravo. We were all roommates. That's how much these guys liked me. They allowed me to be roommates. Roommates after their first appointment. So we're sitting there, we're playing. We're playing. I think it was call of Duty 2 at the time or something like that.
- [121:36]
A
Okay.
- [121:36]
B
And he's over the house we're having. You know, we knew he was having problems with his girlfriend or his ex girlfriend and whatever. Apparently he had seen his ex girlfriend's. The car he'd bought for her was being driven around by her new boyfriend. So we played video games with him, and then we went to work. And then myself and two roommates got called into the commander's office later that day. And we were told he went home and put a gun his head and committed suicide. And at this time, I just didn't understand why anybody could even do that. Right. And I didn't know until I went through it. And now I understand. And I think that for what I'm trying to do now, it's really good that I went through it. Because if you're like a therapist, right, and you have an education and you study it, but do you really understand if you've never went through it? And now I have a better idea of how to help people with it because I went through it. And another reason why I'm thankful that I ended up having to go through it.
- [122:35]
A
I love that I've said that here on the show before. Not that. Not that all therapists are bad, but that is my one question that I have that keeps me from going to therapists. One, my beliefs are rooted in Christianity, so I go to the Bible for my advice or to my brother whose moral compass is rooted in the Bible. But why would I go to a stranger who has never seen or dealt with the things that I've seen with and expect them to give me a good answer?
- [123:13]
B
Absolutely no.
- [123:14]
A
I would much rather take advice from someone like you, who's been through there, had tough times, came through the other side, and knows exactly what us brothers in the veteran community has dealt with. So I'm a big fan of that. I do have one more question for you before you get out of here. Give me a funny story.
- [123:38]
B
All right, so the same guy who was my really good friend, who was the first guy who died, his name was Jason Brown. He was like this guy from Texas, and he was like one of the first Green Berets to, like. When I first got there, they, like, welcomed me, and he took me under his arm. He was an 18 Charlie. And this guy was like a character. Like when. When the company would come around. Like, when the company leadership would come around and we'd have to shave. Like, he would shave his beard off and put into a Hitler mustache just to piss off the commander like this. The type of guys, he had this thick Texas accent. But every single day after operations, you know, if we did the night operations, we'd come back and then we'd. We'd go on the top of the team house, we go tanning, okay? So we're up there, and we've got, like, most of the team. We did this, right? You know, we're trying to get sexy. You know, this is 2007, you know, and we're laying our cots up, right? And we got our cots up. Everybody's getting ready. You know, I've got my, you know, my silkies on. I'm hiking them up, so I have a little. And Jason is right next to me on the cot next to me. And I'm. I'm getting ready, and I turn over, and Jason is next to me with his leg up on my cot, butt naked, putting a sock on his penis. And I just immediately start laughing, right? So mind you, Jason's initial reaction never. Never broke character. Never straight face, right? He still has, mind you, he has his. His foot on my cot. He reaches over with his other hand. He still has his hand on the sock, and the penis reaches over his other hand grabs me by the shoulder, looks me directly in the eye, and he. And I can't not recreate his Texas draw. So just imagine a Texas draw. He goes, joe, hey, listen to me, and listen to me very carefully. When a girl is tossing your salad, do you want her to be like, wow, that is a white ass, or, wow, that is a tan? And I said, jason, I've never thought about it. He goes, exactly. And then he goes back, situating it. It goes down and continues tanning.
- [125:45]
A
My man's thinking two steps ahead.
- [125:48]
B
He's a problem solver.
- [125:49]
A
He's not even home yet. He's thinking two steps ahead. He's a problem solver.
- [125:54]
B
Yeah.
- [125:54]
A
Oh, man.
- [125:57]
B
He could go home and start a
- [125:58]
A
business of, you know, for. For tanning. You got one of these, the. Those. You know, some people. Yeah, I'm gonna let that one go, because we get it. Some people, like, that's a little bit of a, you know, harsh story. Whatever. They want to say that's. That's team life. Yeah. Like, that's. That's team life. That's one. I'm leaving that in there because it's actually. It may be one of the most authentic stories I've. I've ever heard. So it's there. There are. There are a lot of moments like that. You stick in this community long enough.
- [126:40]
B
And unfortunately, I actually. He's actually the one who I wear his memorial brand for, but I. I randomly. As I was leaving yesterday, I forgot both my watch and my thing, actually. I had two of them. I actually climbed Mount Kilmandaro, and I have a picture of it. I bent it around the post at the summit of mountain. Yeah.
- [126:56]
A
That's awesome. Yeah. Well, Joe, man, thank you so much for making the trip out here. I guess I owe you a case of beer. You're. You're our first Tier one ISA guy to. To come on the show and. And one more time, let them. Let them know where they. Where they can find you if they want to. Want to see some more of you.
- [127:16]
B
Yep. So you can either on YouTube, you can find me at the Stoic Viking, and on Instagram, it's stoic Viking 2025.
- [127:25]
A
Awesome. Thanks, brother. Really appreciate it.
- [127:27]
B
Thank you for having me.