B (4:05)

Yeah, absolutely. And this book is kind of born out of my own experiences which I know we're going to talk about. But you know, I don't know if you can see on the, on the video I only have one leg and so, you know, I've got this sort of user level wounded warrior kind of experience and then I've worked at the White House doing wounded warrior policy. I got a PhD in this. I was commissioner of Veterans Services for Virginia for two years where I was the top official in charge of veterans stuff statewide and coordinating closely with the federal government on this. So I have this really unique position because I'm a user level expert and I'm also a policy level expert. And in this book we go deep, deep, deep down the hole of talking to, you know, medical doctors and psychologists and others about this problem. And so I'm excited to talk to you about it today.

A (4:49)

I've heard your story before, which is why I don't want to skip it. It's a powerful story. It's. You're not missing a leg for no reason. So I want to get to that story, but just in full transparency. I can't wait to get into your book, which ironically enough, it's not a hit on any other guest. Usually, you know, it's a little bit the opposite. You know, they come here to maybe push a book and, and you know, I just want to hear their story and then, you know, we'll, we'll talk about the book and that's a nice little side piece.

B (5:21)

Yeah.

A (5:21)

But this one is completely reverse because listening to the chapters, I had an audible and just, I'm, I'm. Gets me upset. It should get every American.

B (5:34)

That's right.

A (5:35)

Upset of about what's going on and like anything else or what I talked about earlier, as far as, you know, other people doing it for fame and money and of course when they get called out and, and proven people are very upset about that. The only people, it's just the way it is. The only people that can hold veterans accountable is other veterans or other veterans.

B (5:59)

100%. Right?

A (6:00)

So you get. You guys can get mad at the. At the second half of this episode all you want, but it's coming from two wounded veterans who both have been through the system and have seen it and completely agree on it. So maybe we know what we're talking about.

B (6:15)

Yeah. Yeah.

A (6:16)

So I think we do. Let's. Let's get into it. And as always, you guys will just have to wait. But stick around because his story is worth it. Let's start at the beginning, and let's talk about when you enlisted, who you enlisted with, and why you did it.

B (6:33)

Yeah, perfect. So I. I was born in North Dakota, and I was. My parents are patriots. My mother. My middle name is MacArthur. My mom named me after the general. My older brother's first name is Patton. And so we're like. We're like army people. My father was wounded in Vietnam, actually, and. And then became a school teacher after that. And so I was born to a family of school teachers who were patriots who love America. And so when I was getting ready to go to college, my first. My first year in high school, I got, like, a 3.0 grade point average, which, you know, is fine, I guess, but it wasn't where I could have been. And so I wanted to go to West Point, but I didn't think I could get in direct. And so I was like, I'm going to enlist first. And so I enlisted in the Army Reserve as a. As a medic, ironically enough, given what would later happen, and went to. I enlisted a few months after my 17th birthday, went into. Went through basic training, and then went back to high school for my senior year of high school. And then sometime during my senior year of high school, I found out that I'd gotten accepted to West Point. And so after I graduated, I went off to West Point, where I graduated from there in 1997. And we were talking offline before this about an absolutely awesome soldier named Bill Dean, who was my West Point classmate and a dear friend of mine. And I know you served with him, and he died a few years ago and. Just a tragic loss for America. But anyway, so I graduated from West Point in 97 and was an armor officer. Went off to do armor officer stuff as a tank platoon leader at Fort Carson, and then I was a scout platoon leader at Fort Carson, and then I was a general's aide for, like, a year. And then after that, I went to Marine Amphibious Warfare School for my for my captain's course. And then I, then I went to Ranger school. So I started, I went to Ranger school as a captain and I started on September 10, 2001. So when the bad thing happened the next day, we had just drawn our TA50 after the, after the, I think five mile run is the second day. And so, so we just drawn our TA50. And there was this on the radar and the radios, the, the little ladies in tennis shoes are handing out helmets were, is all in the radios about this terrorist attack. And I'm thinking, oh wow, the army's really good about like the scenario. Like they're, they're really leaning in on this scenario building because we didn't know, like, we didn't, we didn't know it was real, you know, know until later that day. And so we thought we were just going to go in the woods and kill terrorists and, and a lot of guys went in the woods about that time and started killing terrorists. So. So I graduated. I went straight through Ranger school as the honor grad of my Ranger school class, which was super fun. Funny as an armor officer to be to. I think some infantry guys were kind of embarrassed by that, but. And then I went to, and then I went to Korea and I had orders to Korea before the war started. And so as the invasion of Iraq is coming on were just like, oh no. Like I thought that I'd missed the war. You know, I thought, oh man, oh man. They're like, I'm a soldier and I'm a, I'm a combat armed soldier and I want to go to war. And I thought I'd missed the war. And then because, because people don't realize

A (9:29)

like how strategically important North Korea is.

B (9:32)

Right.

A (9:32)

We're just not going to pull our soldiers to push him over there. I mean that is from someone who's. And we don't touch about this, touch on this a whole lot, so wouldn't mind if you just leave, you know, spend a minute or two.

B (9:43)

Yeah.

A (9:43)

Of why we still have people over there in North Korea. I don't think people stop and realize or think about that like how volatile that situation is.

B (9:54)

It's still very volatile. The, the, the, the North Koreans are obviously a militarized state that is constantly making threats against the south and their nuclear armed power and, and all that stuff. And so the American presence in Korea back then in 2020in 2001 was we had two brigades of. Two brigades of the 2nd Infantry Division and then a whole bunch of other stuff. There's A bunch of attack aviation. There's a bunch of, a bunch of air force and, and stuff like that too. But there's about, you know, 2/3 of a, of a division over there and, and that unit at the time, now it's rotational, so, so army units from stateside rotate over their conventional units. But that unit, that mission is sort of a strategic counter attack. So the idea is that the South Koreans will defend their own country. And then when it comes time to go north and, and, and reunite the peninsula by force, the North Koreans are gonna have to kick it off. And then the South Koreans think they're going to finish it. And, and our role there would be a supporting operation for that counter attack force, basically.

A (10:54)

Of course, it's slightly unfair and opinion based, but, but you've been there, so your opinion counts. Do you believe if America didn't have that presence there, that North Korea would just roll in and take South Korea or at least tempt to?

B (11:08)

Probably not anymore. You know, I think in the 60s and 70s and 80s, probably even, okay, the south, the North Koreans might have had the capability to do that. But the South Koreans are very tough. They're very dedicated, and it's a full scale industrial power, you know.

A (11:23)

Yeah.

B (11:23)

And, but that's the, that's the positive for the South Koreans. The downside is their capital is within rocket artillery range of the North Koreans.

A (11:30)

Yeah.

B (11:31)

So, you know, you'd have 20 or 30,000 shells a minute landing in, in Seoul if the North Koreans decided to, to do that.

A (11:39)

Yeah. When that was something that. There was a point in time I thought I was going to leave Syria and go straight to Korea. I don't think people know how, how, how close we've been, even in current times. And you get briefed on those things and it's just. That one would be wild.

B (12:00)

That one would be scary. Yeah. Especially now with, you know, we see what's going on, Ukraine and Russia with, with drones just saturating the battlefield. And I think a lot of the stuff that we learned is totally obsolete now, you know, completely obsolete. And the North Koreans, I think, are learning pretty rapidly from the Russians because they're there in Ukraine fighting against the Ukrainians. Although I don't know, I don't know if they're still there. They may have drawn back, but, but there were a lot of North Koreans there, and they learned a lot of lessons the hard way.

A (12:28)

Yeah, I just wanted to get your opinion on that, but. So keep going.

B (12:32)

Yeah, so, so I, so I end up, I'm commanding a Tank company in Korea. And I had orders, My follow on orders were to go to, to grad school and then go to West Point and teach. And so this is like spring of 04 and I'm getting ready to change command and my, my battalion commander, my brigade commander come to me and they say, hey, hey, Dan, we're, we're sending your company to Iraq with the other brigade because there's a light brigade and a heavy brigade. I was part of the heavy brigade and they needed a little more mobile, protected firepower. So they were going to take two tank companies with them and my company was going to be one of them. And then my buddy's company went with. And so they said, hey, it's on you, your choice. Do you want to go with your soldiers or do you want to go to grad school? And I quoted the book of Isaiah and I said, here, my Lord, send me. And they were like, what does that mean? What are you talking about? You know, because whatever. And so I was like, well, sir, what that means is please, please send me. And then I went to where my wife was with our then infant daughter and, and I, I said, hey, I'm, I'm, I'm going to war. I'm not going to grad school. And so I did. And so in summer of 2004, we deployed to Ramadi. And actually I've watched your couple, a couple of your past episodes with the guys from two, four Marines. And they were there when we got there and they rotated off about two months after, after we got there. So we got there in August and they rotated out at the end of September and they had a very, very tough fight in the city of Ramadi and we replaced them. My brigade replaced them. I was sort of. Most of my missions were on the outskirts of Ramadi, but then when the Fallujah fighting kicked off in November of 04, Ramadi got really scary really fast. It was already a scary place and there was a lot of enemy activity there. But we, what we used to say is that all the dumb bad guys stayed in Fallujah and died. And all the smart bad guys came to Ramadi to keep fighting. And so we ended up fighting a bunch of smart bad guys. So on, on 11-10-04, I was wounded for the first time. I was in my tank and, and we were in a, in a firefight. And the loader of my tank was preparing to fire the loaders 240. There's a 240 machine gun at that position. And he was preparing to fire the Lotus 240 in our, in our, in. We had killed a couple of bad guys with our, with our machine gun from the tank. And I look up and I see this rocket propelled grenade coming off the roof of a, of a mosque. And I ducked and I said rpg. And either Dennis Miller didn't hear me or he didn't duck fast enough or whatever, but the, the RPG kind of bounced off the top of the tank and hit him in the face and killed him instantly. It was, it was horrible. Yeah. And you know, I always, I like to say everybody's name. You know, Dennis Miller was a 21 year old, he was married to, he was married to his 19 year old sweetheart and he was the only son of his father, Dennis Senior and Kathleen Miller from Michigan. And I visited with them, I've visited his grave. And you know, that level of sacrifice is something that, that, you know, I've seen and hate it and I'm also humbled by it and really, you know, proud of that kind of sacrifice. So anyway, so Dennis was killed and I, I could see, and I, I don't want to talk the details here because maybe his parents might see this, but it was very obvious and very graphic that he was killed. And my crew was like, sir, sir, you got to do something. I'm like, he's dead, let's go. And they're like, what? But you got to do. And I'm like, guys, listen, he's dead, let's go. And so we continued mission and we went back to the base camp and they took his body out and, and I had wounds down, up and down my arm and I had a, some shrapnel on my face. And, and but what was crazy is like, just because you get wounded or just because your guys get killed doesn't mean you get to stop fighting like the war, the war continues the next day, right? And so we ended up, you know, on. His parents probably found out. I think they found out on Veterans Day that their son had been killed in action, which is just horrific. So anyway, so we end up, we continue mission and we keep doing what we're doing and you know, killing bad guys and dodging IEDs and dodging drag fire and dodging RPGs and all that stuff. And then on 1-10-05, I was wounded again, this time by an IED outside of town. We were on the north end of Ramadi and I was in my Humvee and we were out doing a patrol visiting some tribal leaders and I just woke up on my Back in the ditch and, and I'm looking at the sky and I'm like. And my soldiers are packed around me and they're like, hey, sir, you're going to be okay. You're going to be okay. And I'm like. And they said, oh. And I, I remember I heard somebody screaming and I tried to. I tried to like, crawl to whoever was screaming, and they pushed me down on the stretcher because I was already on a stretcher. I'd been unconscious for a few minutes at this point. And they pushed me down on the stretcher and they say, relax, sir, you're the only one. And I'm like, I'm the only one. What? I'm like, oh, crap. I got wounded again.

A (17:27)

Not again.

B (17:28)

This sucks. But they're. So, they're treating my legs and I had a massive wound to my, my, my missing a big chunk of femur, and my femoral artery and vein were severed. And the, the medic did a heroic effort and actually he ended up getting a bronze star for that action. Not a, not a tour award, but Right. For that particular action, for saving my life. Because he just dived right in and, you know, reached into that mess and, and blocked off some arteries to keep me alive. But I was a company commander. The way our radios were configured, it was very fortunate that my battalion executive officer, a major, was right behind me in a different truck. And so, so he pulls up and he comes running over to me and everybody's holding my hands and they're talking to me and they've called a helicopter at this point. And he goes, he goes, dan, you know, stay with me. And he's talking to me and, and I go, sir, I gotta ask you something. He's like, yeah, anything. I go, you gotta be honest. He's like, yeah, anything. I go, are my cock and balls okay? And he goes, I don't know if it's family friendly podcast or whatever, but anyway, so he goes, military friendly podcast. He goes, I don't know, man, let me check. And he goes down, and my pants are all blown open. And he checks me out. He comes back up to where my head is and he goes, the happiest words I've ever heard. He goes, yeah, dude, they're dusty, but they look good to me. So. So, so anyway, so dusty. They're dusty, but look good to me. So, so then the helicopter comes and, and, and, and my last memory from Iraq is as the helicopter is settling down over me and they, they run me onto the helicopter and I think I Had somebody's field jacket draped over me to keep the dust out of the wounds. And as the helicopter's lifting off as a CH46 and a Marine helicopter, and I remember thinking, oh, thank God I'm saved, because these guys got me, you know, and by the time I got to surgery, my blood pressure was 60 over zero, and I'd completely bled out. And so after hours of surgery and exhausting their blood supply, they went to the mess hall and they said, anybody with a positive blood, we could use your help. And, like, 25 sailors and marines came and donated their blood to keep me alive. And, you know, I really give all the credit to God about saving me and about putting the right people in the right places at the right times to allow me to continue to live. And I'm. You know, I'm. Yeah, So I ended up getting my leg amputated a week later at Walter Reed, and. And so forth. And so that hasn't been easy, but I've. It's been such a blessing to me to. To realize that God really does have a plan. And so that's been really very nice. So that fall, the story you're talking about is, so this is January and September. I got invited to, you know, sort of tell my story at a church in California. And I got. I got to meet the surgeon who saved my life, who was a Navy surgeon. And he. He. He had a slideshow, and he's showing me these slides of. Of. Of a soldier who should have died, but lived. That's me. And a soldier who should have lived, but died. And I'm looking at it, and I'm looking at the circumstances, and I see the date of the injury, and I see that it's an army first lieutenant. And I'm looking at the pictures, I'm like, oh, my gosh. That's my. That's my roommate. So my roommate had been shot in September, on September 14th. He was one of my platoon leaders, and he'd been shot through the thigh on the other side, and we couldn't control the bleeding. And he arrived at that surgical station already in cardiac arrest, similar to where I was. And. And it was just this compare and contrast. And actually, it's. It's kind of. It's a small world, you know, And I try to honor him, too. His name is Tyler Brown. And so my. One of my twin sons. I have twins who are 17, and one of my twin sons is named Tyler after. After Tyler Brown. So. So his sacrifice was. Was tremendous. And. And, you know, I was Right there when it all happened. And it was, you know, all these things are hard.

A (21:23)

Do you remember what the lessons learned from the unfortunate. Hard lessons learned from Tyler Brown?

B (21:29)

Yeah, that.

A (21:30)

That they switched.

B (21:31)

Yeah, there were a couple. I mean, this is 2004. And I think, well, at least the army of a few years knew all these lessons because we'd learned them the hard way through all those years of war. I worry that the modern army, unless we get pretty serious about. About. About codifying these, like, lessons, we have to relearn them. Yeah, we don't want to have to relearn them, because every time we relearn them, somebody dies. So a couple things happened. Number one is the Marines were our medac coverage at the time. And Radi was so scary in terms of small arms fire and including some SAM threats.

A (22:05)

Okay.

B (22:06)

That they wouldn't fly. They typically wouldn't fly medevac missions during the day. And so we were unable to get a helicopter to right where he was at the point of injury. That would have been. That would have been key because he would have been in the hands of surgeons much earlier. So we had to do ground medevac to a station, to a battalion aid station. And my understanding is I was elsewhere dealing with, you know, I was commanding my company and trying to find the bad guys and whatever. But they gave him a bunch of saline. You know, they were. They did what you do. You give them IVs, right. And what the IV does is it washes out all the red blood cells. And so that's something bad. And then the other thing that happened is, you know, the last slide of that slideshow actually is a brilliant slide. It's a picture of a wound close up. I don't know whose wound, maybe even mine. And it says on top, all bleeding eventually stops.

A (22:53)

That's right.

B (22:54)

And so unless you stop the bleeding, unless you put a tourniquet or if it's in a tourniquet, unfriendly location like his was very close to the groin. You got to put a knee on the gut. Like you. Doesn't you tell a patient to shut up and quit complaining because you're saving their life. But you have to get the bleeding stopped. And we. We did not get the bleeding stopped. We. As a unit. And then by the time he got to the medical station, they did. They almost saved him. It was so close, and it just didn't work.

A (23:22)

That's. It's gut wrenching to. To hear those things. The. When they medevaced you, you said it was on A Marine helicopter.

B (23:32)

Yeah.

A (23:32)

Did it did originate or. Or return, more importantly, return to a Marine base?

B (23:36)

It did. It went to Altacatum, which was right by. If you remember back then, it was right by Fallujah.

A (23:41)

I know exactly where it is.

B (23:42)

Yeah. Yeah. And so I was never there conscious, but I was there unconscious. But that helicopter flew out of there and then it flew back there. But what's interesting is I'm actually good friends now with a guy named Greg Duquet who is a government contractor. He's like kind of a mentor of mine. We found out much later by comparing notes that he was the battalion commander of that helicopter squadron. Commander of that helicopter squadron. So I bled in one of his helicopters and he remembers the story like they took a pressure washer and took my blood out of the helicopter.

A (24:11)

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B (25:38)

Yeah. When you know it's bad when that's happening. Yeah.

A (25:41)

And it's not what they want to do. That is a last resort for them to give, you know, that, that type of request and you Just, you just know with that, that this is, this is really life or death.

B (25:51)

You know, I, I've, I've talked about this a lot, obviously, and, and I, I, I really feel like that there's that, you know, the Bible verse, it talks about, no greater love hath any man than this, and he lay down his life for his friends. My favorite Bible, like, laying down your life for your friends is, is, is very sort of airy fairy. What does that even mean? But when you're like, giving of your body to keep your friend alive, that's a different kind of thing.

A (26:16)

Your friend alive. They didn't know you.

B (26:18)

Right, right.

A (26:19)

You know what I mean?

B (26:20)

How do you define friend? Right?

A (26:22)

You know, they're, they're, they're giving their blood to.

B (26:26)

Because it's an American.

A (26:27)

To an American.

B (26:28)

Actually, you know what's crazy? They probably would have done it for a mooch.

A (26:31)

They. I already probably would have. You know, they, I would have. And this, that kind of goes back to my, to my original question I didn't get around to, which was they fly you back to an army base. I'm sorry, a Marine base.

B (26:46)

Marine base, yeah.

A (26:47)

You're. You're the lowest of the low to them. You're an army officer.

B (26:52)

Right, right, right. I'm an officer and I'm Army. It's like two strikes against me.

A (26:57)

And you know what? I doubt they put over the, they either, they either didn't announce that or, or not a single Marine stood in that line and said, hey, who's it for?

B (27:08)

No, of course not. Of course not.

A (27:10)

It didn't matter. They knew an American needed blood and they'd give it regardless of what that was.

B (27:14)

That's right. They didn't care if I was gay or straight or black or white or any of those things. And what. I've talked about this a lot. I feel like our country is totally flying apart right now, and things are just going crazy all over the place. And getting back to that place where Americans are thinking of each other as we're in this together is something that's so powerful, and I don't know how we get back there. Brent. I'm just, I'm worried about it, and I just don't know how we get back there.

A (27:41)

Should be worried about it. I hate to say that because I, I, I worry about it too.

B (27:44)

I feel, I mean, my wife has kids.

A (27:46)

Should worry about it.

B (27:47)

Yeah, yeah, our kid. Yeah, our kids should worry about it. My, my, My wife said something to me one day a while back. She said all of this stuff in the news is so distressing. It reads like the prologue to a book about World War iii. And I'm like, oh, no thanks to that mess.

A (28:04)

There's some times I handle the stress pretty well, but every now and again I'll go visit my dad, smoke a cigar on the, on the porch with him, and just, and just vent because I don't vent to a lot of people. But, you know, dads are special. Dads are special. Your dad's your whole life. And yeah, I'll vent to him about this, about just this world. And, and I don't know why I still do. Maybe it's just, you know, therapeutic to some degree. And he'll just calmly, he'll listen to it all. He'll listen to it all and he'll go, brent, we know how this story ends. And Jesus doesn't come back because everything's going so well.

B (28:42)

Right? Right.

A (28:44)

And he doesn't have to say anything else. And it's just a good reset button.

B (28:47)

Right.

A (28:47)

But it still doesn't make me feel any better.

B (28:49)

Yeah, there's a lot of hardship between here and. Because Final victory.

A (28:53)

Because just like you, I, I understand. I do, I, I, I understand how this story ends. I just don't want it to happen on my watch. Yeah, yeah.

B (29:03)

Yeah, that's right. I just, yeah, you can. Two things. Two things can be true at once. We can, we can know that, that the King is coming to save us. Right. And we can also do everything we can to, to save our country and our friends while we're at it. Right.

A (29:17)

And I'm. And both, and both can be true.

B (29:19)

Yeah.

A (29:19)

Right. Yeah. And both can be true. If you've ever been to any of my tactical training classes, then you know how adamant I am about the use of white light and the importance of a quality high powered tactical light. That's why I use cloud defensive tac lights. You can't hit what you can't see and neither can the bad guys. Clearly identify your target and simultaneously overwhelm his vision with hundreds and even thousands of lumens. Get serious about defending yourself and, and your family. Go to clouddefensive.com and use promo code tier one to get 30% off your order. That's right, 30%. You won't find a better light than this. And you won't find a better deal than this. So the. I believe you said the last thing you remembered was probably getting loaded up

B (30:08)

on the helicopter from the, from as the helicopters lifting off. I remember that. You know, that vibration moment as they lift off.

A (30:13)

Yeah. What's. What's the next thing you remember?

B (30:16)

The next thing I remember. So it. It depends on how you define remember, I guess. So I, you know, I was unconscious, so I got blown up January 10th, and I was unconscious till the end of the month. I have a funny story about that. So, you know, they're assessing for brain injury when you first become conscious again, right? And the doctors come and they're like, hey, we need to assess you for brain injury. We have some very simple questions for. I'm like, great. They're like, what's the date? I'm like, how am I supposed to know, dude? I've been unconscious for weeks. And they're like, okay, okay, okay. Yeah, that question was very good. They're like. They're like, how many nickels in a $30? And I'm like, how many nickels in a $30 and tickets? I'm like, 26. And they're like, okay, you're good. But anyway, so I was unconscious for about three weeks. I become conscious at the very end of January, but I was in a medically induced coma that whole time.

A (31:10)

Okay.

B (31:11)

And one of the most horrible parts of this whole story, which I didn't even have an explanation for until, like, three years ago, was that I was having horrible nightmares the whole time. And you. You sort of think when somebody's laying there in a bed that they're like, they're just out, they're just not there, you know, that they're. The drugs or whatever will take care of them. And in my case, the actuality was that I was having these horrible, very detailed nightmares that were. That were looping. They were, like, on a loop. And so in one of them, I'd been kidnapped by the Moos, and. And Delta came and rescued me. So thanks. And thanks for. I was dreaming about you guys while I was asleep. I knew somebody would come get me. And I was hoping it would be the good guys and not the seals, because they'd probably. They'd probably touch me after they rescued me. But anyway, no, so. So that was one of the dreams. I'd been kidnapped. One of the dreams was that I. That my father had been body snatched by the moj and so, like, his body was occupied by the enemy, and so I had to kill him, like, like with a pistol to the head. And it was graphic, that kind of killing. And then the dream would loop, and I'd have to do it again and again and again. And I knew it was a dream. But it felt real every time I went through it.

A (32:27)

Yeah.

B (32:28)

And then the last one was that my wife, who we'd been married five and a half years at this point, that my wife was having an affair with one of the doctors. And it wasn't just sort of the general knowledge that your wife's having an affair. It was like specific, pornographic level, like, detail of this affair. And so literally, when I become conscious, the first thing I say to my wife, who's been there, like, pulling her hair out, everything, I'm like, why did you cheat on me? And she's like, what are you talking about? You know, and the doctors were like. The doctors were like, listen, he'll come out of it. It's just. It's okay. Everybody has this. But I think what happens when somebody's unconscious and drugged out and, and their body is so damaged, is that a bunch of, like, mud from your subconscious. Like, all your worst fears. Like, what's, what's worse than getting kidnapped by Al Qaeda? Probably your wife cheating on you.

A (33:18)

Yeah.

B (33:19)

Like, but not much. Or, you know, what's worse than killing your father? Like, those are all nightmare level things. And I think your, your subconscious just brings up this nightmare again and again, and it was just really horrible. But the beauty of all of that was that when I first became conscious again, that all that stuff went away. And I've had no bad dreams. I don't, I don't dream war dreams. I don't. You know, I. I'm fine.

A (33:42)

I. I'll share a story of, of my experience with you. When I got shot, and coming out of one of my, one of my surgeries, I would have this reoccurring dream. It's probably the only one I can. I can tell

B (34:03)

because they're all dark.

A (34:04)

There's some dark ones. There are some dark ones. And I remember them because most of them were, like I said, were reoccurring. But one was somehow, there's no rhyme or reason to it, you know, just like yours. I don't know how I got there. It's just like the dream starts. We're on the outskirts of this village, this Afghan village, and it's me and this stranger that, like, civilian has no business being there next to me. And, and for whatever reason, like, the, They're. They're. Well, not for. They're kind of freaked out over it. And I'm like, hey, you have to calm down. You have to calm down. If you don't calm down, like, we're not going to make it out. That's the first thing you need to know. The second thing you need to know. Things are about to get really bad because I'm going to kill everybody in this village. And then they're like, I don't want to see that. I don't want to see that. And I'm like, it has to happen. It has to happen. And I go through and I kill everybody in the village. And it's a dark. It's a. It's a dark dream.

B (35:10)

It's one thing to kill a guy who's trying to kill you.

A (35:13)

Yeah.

B (35:13)

It actually feels like. It feels like victory. And it's sort of gross. And like, you. You wish that that guy hadn't been born in the situation that would cause him to shoot guns at Americans. But since you're the American, he's shooting guns at. Die. I'm cool with you dying, buddy. But when civilians get hurt, man, it's like.

A (35:30)

Yeah. And rough. I don't. Unfortunately, that's what I can tell. That's. That's. And again. And that's not like. It just drudges up, like, the darkest things. I've. I've. I'm very proud of my military career. I've. I've never done anything questionable when it comes to that. So it's not like something like that's in my dark, deep past resurfacing. Just. There's kind of no rhyme or reason to it. Like, there's just some weird dreams. Yeah. Yeah.

B (35:59)

So a buddy of mine is now the JSOC Command psychiatrist, actually, another West Point classmate of mine, and I told him that story one time. I'm like, I never had any explanation for that. Nobody ever told me. He's like, oh, it's. It's called intensive care psychosis. Everybody gets it. I'm like, what would have been great if you told me 20 years ago.

A (36:20)

Oh, the. The second half of that. Not second half, but the other. The last part of that is. And. And this I do. Waking up and still being in that foggy state of. You don't know what that. Because you're coming out of surgeries, and there's. There's this weird state that when you're having those type of dreams, you don't. You don't really know what's real or not. You're in this weird, like, middle state. And anyone who would talk to me, I would remind them and be like, hey, shut up. Because if you keep talking, I'll kill you, too. Like, we're. You're gonna give our position away. And in a weird way, I remember being half in and half out, being like, that doesn't feel right. I don't know where I'm at. I know where I just was and I was just in this village.

B (37:06)

You know, I remember being at Walter Reed and sort of like, you know, semi conscious, whatever, and being really bothered by the fact that nobody was armed. Like, where are all your weapons, you clowns? Like, you don't have your rifle with you? Where's your rifle? You know, we're in D.C. dude. We don't have rifles here. Yeah. So, you know, that's kind of where I would say that, that, you know, being wounded in that recovery period is kind of, it's, it's definitely the roots of, of this story that I've been so passionate about.

A (37:37)

Yeah.

B (37:38)

With, you know, helping veterans live better lives. Because I've seen it from the ground level. I know what it's like to be, you know, I was in the hospital for six months. I was, I had 40, some surgeries. I was then an outpatient at the hospital for another five months, learning to walk again and all of that stuff. And then I learned to use a prosthetic. I wore a prosthetic for many years. I quit about five, six years ago. But like, that was a really hard recovery period. And during that time, I began to see a bunch of things that really disturbed me. So, for example, I saw guys who were really seriously injured be coached by, I think, well, meaning people from veteran service organizations and whatever. Like, hey man, make sure you get your disability, make sure you get your disability, whatever. And I'm like, is, is nobody going to talk to me about getting better? Is nobody going to talk to me about, like, living my best life? You're only going to talk to me about, like, seeing how much the government can pay me. And I just, I just found that to be appalling and misplaced. It's like, it's like a kind of misplaced. Like, it's, it's like kindness. They mean it kindly. They think you're going to, they think you're help, they're helping you, but what they're really doing to. So many veterans get trapped in this mindset of thinking that their disability, whatever it is, is like central to their core being and that their, and that their life has to be defined by their worst moment. And for me, like, I don't want my life to be defined by the fact I got blown up one day, like, whatever, yeah, that sucked. But it's over. And now I'm doing great things. I'm going forward. Why do I have to keep looking back? And why do I have to, you know, I just, I just don't embrace that kind of stuff. And so many people do. And they're doing it because they're coached to do it.

A (39:28)

What you just said is, is, is really tough, I think, for, for some people to consume. And this is, this is what, this is what makes this problem so hard for the most part. We'll get into this again a little later. Is that most of what's going on with some of this fraudulent veteran stuff comes with good intent. A lot of. There are psychologists out there. There are people within the system that are trying to look out for the best, the best interest of the veteran. And that's. And that is true.

B (40:06)

That's right.

A (40:07)

And the American people want what's best for the veteran. And they assume, and everyone's assuming that the veteran is, is being completely honest. And now let's talk about the veteran for a second. So almost. There will be. There'll be a couple cutouts on that, but almost everyone wants what's best for the veteran. Now when we change our focus over the veteran himself, I believe some of the veterans. I hate this word. I don't usually use it, but it is an apple just because it gets overused. They are a product of their environment.

B (40:46)

Sure.

A (40:47)

And so they're almost being used at this point or overly persuaded. And there are some. And again, people aren't going to like the way I phrase it, but I'm not wrong. They know what they're doing. They're intentionally doing what they're doing. They're lying about what their problems are. They're going as far as not just lying about their problems, they're researching what problems they should be having to get as much money and resources from the government. And it's just wrong.

B (41:26)

It's wrong. Yeah. So there are a couple of different ways that the, you know, so I was in a. I did a. I was invited to testify to the Senate Veterans Affairs Committee. And it was, it was really funny because it was this lady from the VA who's the vaig, She's a friend of mine. And then Veteran Service Organization. Veteran Service Organization. Veteran Service Organization and me. And I'm like the sort of canary in a coal mine saying, hey, hey. Like, no, this system is deeply sick. This system has real problems. And people can sort of Google that, look up that testimony. It's really, it's like solid, tight little five minutes. But one of the things The VA says all the time is that they do all these, the IG does all these investigations and that fraud is exceptionally rare. And that's true. Well, it's true in one sense because although there are people and we talk about some of them in our book, there's this guy named Perez Gorda who legitly scammed homes for our troops out of a, no kidding, fully built out adaptive home in Dripping Springs, Texas and claimed to be like, claimed to be paralyzed from the navel down and, and was a wheelchair user and they gave him a whole house and then somebody like walks by and they see him unloading lumber, like walking around unloading lumber from a jacked up pickup truck and he's not paralyzed at all. And, and what's nice about that story is like some of these stories have their own little natural endpoint. And that guy ends up, and I don't want to totally misspeak here, but there was some kind of criminal incident that caused him to be incarcerated unrelated to his VA crimes. There's also, you know, fraudulent, fraudulent activity because he was also scamming the VA out of 100 disability. Is also this guy who used to be, who's like a, like a, kind of like a world class weightlifter, like a big jacked guy who would go to his VA appointments in a wheelchair and say that he couldn't feel his hands and his feet and was getting 100, you know, 100 disability. And the VA eventually found him and he goes to jail and whatever. So that kind of overt, like, no kidding, lying is actually relatively rare.

A (43:36)

Yes, that is correct.

B (43:37)

But that's not the main problem, right? The main problem is that the system is built around these, system these symptom checklists. So if you say, if you say, hey, I have, you know, I have an elbow injury, there's a disability benefits questionnaire for, you know, elbows, right? And it'll say, you know, what's your level of flexion? How much pain do you have? Whatever. And you get different levels of disability compensation for different levels of impairment. But the only thing that, you know, with an elbow it's pretty easy. You can put a, you could put a gauge on it and you can say, okay, like what's the, what's the level of, of motion? But what you can't say is, is this guy, when this guy says that he's in screaming pain at this angle, is he really? And if you observe him playing with his kids on the lawn two days from now, he's going to be like, woo. Woo. You know, moving his arms. And so symptom exaggeration for physical ailments is bad enough, but the real problem, we talk about it extensively and I know you read those chapters, is the real problem is that specifically for mental health conditions, it's very easy to see. And there's studies where they've taken people who are naive to the system and say, okay, endorse the symptoms that you think will get you the biggest disability compensation and they give them the symptom checklist. And it's really easy because if it says how often do you have disturbing thoughts that you can't get rid of? And you put like once a month or once a quarter, that's pretty obviously like, okay, we all kind of have disturbing thoughts once in a while. If you put every day and if you put non stop, you know, it's pretty obvious that if you, if you check the symptomatology at the far right of the sheet, then you're going to end up with a higher disability rating. And the only person who ever knows about that is you. You know, your wife might know, your friends might know, but really the only person who knows is you. And so the, the main kind of fraud that's easily done. And there's, like you were saying, there's, there's websites that will coach you how to do it. You can't get on Instagram at all without seeing there's this one kind of goofy looking veteran who sometimes wears a headband and stuff and he's got a, he's got a whole company and he's making millions of dollars because they have physicians on staff, they have lawyers on staff. They have, and the, and the lawyers will tell the physicians exactly how to fill it out. They won't even do an interview with the veteran or they'll do a very brief interview with a veteran. They'll give you the checklist and then you take it to the va and the VA, like, you know, has to go through it. So the fraud is rampant. And, and it's, it's kind of a natural, it's become a natural thing. But it's unclear about exactly when that began to happen. So after World War II, which by any measure World War II is way, way worse than the global war on terror. Right. Like, you know, we, we lost about the, as a country, I think we lost around250,000 killed in World War II. Correct. In all of the war in Iraq, we lost about 4, 4500. And then the war in Afghanistan, another like 2500. So let's say 7000 together.

A (46:50)

Yep.

B (46:52)

So by any measure, the, those, those former wars, Korea, Vietnam and World War II are definitely worse. But those veterans claimed far fewer disabilities than what we see now. And there's, so there's a societal shift towards instead of, you know, John F. Kennedy said, you know, famously right, like, ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country. But that was 1961 or 62.

A (47:20)

Whenever he said that and he was a Democrat.

B (47:22)

Yeah, yeah, he'd be a Republican now.

A (47:24)

He sure would be.

B (47:25)

But, but, but, but I think that society has shifted to, instead of people being self sacrificial and sacrificing for their families and leading their families and sacrificing for their communities, somehow there's this, it's almost a spiritual shift, but it's definitely a political shift that causes people to say, what can my country do for me? You know, I'm going to put up a leering center in Minneapolis and make a bunch of money off the government. And it's like, how did we get to the place where we go from being these self sacrificial, willing to give our bodies to our friends if necessary, like we were talking about with the blood stories. How do we get from that to where a guy goes to the VA and doesn't feel bad at all about claiming stuff that is just nonsensical. So here's some nonsense things and actually they're modifying this one just now. But it used to be until very recently that if you had sleep apnea and you used a CPAP machine that you would get a 50% disability for that. A baloney amputation is a 30% disability. And above the amputation is a 60% disability. Losing an eye is a 30% disability. Losing half of your penis is a 30% disability. And all of those are worse than, oh my gosh, I've got to wear the Darth Vader mask when I sleep. Like, it's just crazy.

A (48:46)

That's. That one is always, always made me mad. I took a round that, that completely shattered my, my, my ulna bone. Ripped my, my nerve essentially in half. Took a grenade to the face. Things that, that, that will of sorts you know, affect me my whole life. I love having you on because I'm like, well, I can't complain too much.

B (49:16)

Remember those?

A (49:16)

Look, I got a little, I got a little owie on my arm. It ended up being okay. Ended up being okay. 30% for that. Sleep apnea. 50 crazy. Are you kidding?

B (49:26)

Me crazy. It's a crazy system. And so this week is. It's actually perfect that we. We scheduled this a month and a half, two months ago. Whatever it was. It's perfect that we're talking about it this week, because earlier this week, on Tuesday, the VA released a new rule in the code of federal regulations, and it was an interim final rule, which means they weren't really interested in anybody's feedback. They were just going to do it. And what it said was basically that if you have a condition, if you're ill or injured, and you have a condition that can be managed by medication, that they're going to rate you on what's left of the condition after the medication handles it. Okay, so let's say you have high blood pressure. You take a pill, and their high blood pressure returns to normal. The VA is going to rate you 0% for that, because now you're high blood. You don't have high blood pressure anymore. Okay, so let me give you an analogy. So let's say you're starving to death, and somebody gives you food, and now you're eating food, but you still want to be treated as if you're starving to death. It's just nonsensical, right?

A (50:28)

Oh, absolutely.

B (50:28)

So the VA releases this rule and the veterans organizations go crazy. Vfw, dav, blah, blah, blah. And just today, the VA is so cowardly on this that they pull back the rule and they're like, oh, my gosh, you guys, so sorry we offended all the grifters. And I mean, that's not what they said, but that's what they meant. So they're just.

A (50:50)

What they meant.

B (50:50)

They're terrified.

A (50:51)

Why would they be terrified of that? It makes no sense.

B (50:57)

Because. Yeah, the reason is because it's all political and because the people who are making this policy are, are non veterans who are, you know, members of Congress, and they're afraid that if they do anything to offend the veterans, that all the funny hat people, you know, all the pointy hat people are going to show up and make them famous. And that's not what they want. So they, so they hide from it.

A (51:21)

Let's. Let's walk this back and let the, Let the listeners under. This is really important.

B (51:27)

Absolutely.

A (51:28)

Let the unders. Let the listeners understand what. Where disabilities came from, why we originally had it. And like, and like every government program, we're so far off what it was originally intended for. I think it's a good resetting mechanism when they know what disability was really originally for.

B (51:50)

So a Lot of the initial thinking about disability came sort of after the Civil War, okay. Because obviously the Civil War produced tons and tons of people with substantial disabilities. Right? The modern disability system sort of starts like kind of during World War I. So 106 years ago, 19, 18 or so comes this idea that, oh, my gosh, we got to figure out a way to codify all this stuff. And like you said back then, you're talking about a completely industrial age economy. So it's farms, it's, you know, it's coal mines, it's factories, it's all those things where. Where physical disabilities matter quite a lot. And nobody gave any thought back then to mental disabilities, although there were people with shell shock and very serious mental conditions back then, mental health conditions. So you fast forward and what. General Omar Bradley in 1956 was tasked by President Eisenhower, his buddy, to lead a commission to reform the va. And he said that we, what we have, and this is the 1956 version. So like, you know, 50, 70 years ago, golly, he said, what we have is not a veterans care system. What we have is, is an accretion of laws over time. So, like, like, it grows. He didn't say this part, but it grows like a coral reef. Like somebody, like little pieces add, little pieces add, and it gets bigger and bigger and bigger and bigger and bigger. And nobody ever anticipated that we'd have a system where, like what it is now, where the va, the VA is almost like a student driver who's driving with one foot on the gas and one foot on the brake where the gas is. The Veterans Health Administration, which is actually really good. It's the world's biggest integrated healthcare system. They treat tons of patients. They have like 1200 different medical facilities, about 60 VA hospitals. I mean, the VA healthcare system is actually really good. It's trying to make people better. But the VA disability system is like the foot on the brake here. Because what the VA disability system does is rewards people for remaining in an unimproved condition, Right? So if your knee hurts and you get your knee fixed and now your knee doesn't hurt, do you have a disability anymore? The VA would say yes, but reality kind of says no. And so what we have is just layer after layer. And every politician of both parties, by the way, Trump does it, Bush did it, Obama did it, like back and back and back. Every politician, every president comes and says, we're going to make the VA the most generous of all time and we're going to increase the VA's budget 10% every year. And it's like, to what end? Well, what we're doing actually is we're trapping people in an unimproved condition. We're making these fit, healthy, productive members of society into, and I'll get a lot of hate on this phrase that I'm about to use, but we're making these productive men and women into welfare queens. We're making them go to the mailbox with their handout, and it's all electronic payments, so it's just a form of speech. But we're making people go to the mailbox and live on the mailbox economy rather than provide for their own families. And, and here's the thing. I talk about identity a lot when I'm, when I'm talking about this. And you know, we all have many identities, right? Just like we all have a bunch of ball caps in our, in our closets. And your identity from moment to moment can vary based on the context of what is going on around you. So, you know, when you're with your, you know, when I'm with my wife, I'm a husband. When I'm with my children, I'm a parent. When I'm, you know, with my employees, I'm a business leader. So those are all identities that just. You kind of go through them. When I'm at church, I'm a Christian. And actually, I hope, I hope actually, beyond. When I'm at church, I'm a Christian, actually, I'm a Christian all the time. But there are some identities that are more important and some identities are less important. The problem, one of the main problems that I see in all of this system is people get so focused on how can I get my disability level high? And so focused on the idea of getting the financial rewards from being a disabled veteran, which can be substantial. But also they're getting the sort of social awards for being a disabled veteran. And they get the respect of others. They get the, oh, my gosh, you, oh, what can I do for you? You're a disabled veteran. You must have been knee deep in hand grenade pins outside Fallujah. And it's like, no, I was a, I was a cook at Fort Bragg. Like, I didn't ever deploy, but thanks. You know, and so it distorts people's identity and makes them focus on something that is in the past and is negative rather than in the future and positive.

A (56:36)

So this is a cultural problem that has really bled over into the military, but similarly, but different because you just hit on it a little bit because you're a hero, you know, type of thing. You get put on a pedestal. And so what I mean, but it's a cultural thing. I don't know when it happened 15, 20 years ago, it started and it got worse, became this thing that if you having a problem with you is now a badge of honor. And if you don't, what's wrong with you that you're normal. And let's, let's walk down the list. Add.

B (57:21)

Yep.

A (57:22)

They're proud to have, they want to have.

B (57:25)

There was an article, Brent, last week in like the Atlantic or something about how the percentage of students at elite colleges who have, who have a diagnosis of ADD, ADHD or autism is like 30%. And in part the, the now this article was like, very controversial and people got really mad about it. But in part it's because there's advantage to be gained there. If you're at an elite college who doesn't want more time on a test, who doesn't want the ability to take home a test, like, of course there's advantages to it. And in the veterans context, there's a couple of advantages. Number one, if you can get to 100% disability, if you have a wife and two kids and it's 20, 26, 100% disability is like $4,000 ish per month, tax free. So that's 48,000 a year, tax free. Means it's like if you were to get a job that paid that much, you'd have to make 65, 70 grand to bring home 48 grand. Right. So that's pretty substantial financial advantage. But you also get the sort of cachet or the, or the sort of societal thing of, oh, you're a veteran, you know, thanks for your service, blah, blah, board this airplane first. You know, don't have to take your shoes off of the check, whatever. And it's like, when did the soldiers, when does the soldier have to be just a citizen again? And I think soldiers should be citizens the second they hang up their uniform.

A (58:53)

Well, add no tax, property tax.

B (58:55)

Gosh, in a lot of states that's true.

A (58:57)

And that's true in Florida. And it sounds like we're just bashing like these incentive programs and we're just, you know, bashing 100% disabled. I just want to stop and just make a, like a real clear delineation here. I have no problem with these incentives. Okay. If you truly are 100%, you deserve to get paid for that. I have no problem with the state of Florida. Texas does it, maybe North Carolina, there's a few other states that do the no property tax.

B (59:26)

Yeah, Virginia does.

A (59:27)

Trying to honor their, their, their veterans. I have no problem with that. In fact, I want it. And it goes back to the unintended consequences. The unintended consequences is this. And I don't. Well, we'll get, we'll save the last a little bit towards the end because there's a lot of more stuff to cover. But I just want to just again pause for a second and just re. Refocus. It's not, we're not hating on that part of the system. It's that once you start monetarily incentivizing people for it, there is going to be a, I want to say large, but there's going to be a certain part of the population that is. Now you've incentivized them to lie, you've incentivized them to go after that and that's exactly what's going on. So I don't want to do away with those process or with those rewards if you want to call them that kind of is what it is. What I want to do is focus on the, the fraudulent behavior of people going after it that don't deserve it.

B (60:36)

Right.

A (60:36)

Because let me tell you, these, these resources aren't infinite, they're finite. And if enough people do it, they're going to ruin it for everybody.

B (60:45)

That's right, yeah. I mean I think, I think there are a couple of the winners here are a little hard to describe. There are some, there's some people in this kind of system who end up as real winners. There are people who are running these claim shark kind of companies that will take a percentage of your claim in order to I think fraudulently and I can prove it, but it doesn't matter. But they will help you get your claim to 100%. They'll guarantee 100%. All this stuff. It's really crazy. Those people are the winners of this broken system. Politicians who get to pander to veterans are winners of this system. But here's who the losers are. The loser is the 25 year old soldier who has a high school diploma who maybe some community college or something like that. He did a hitch or two in the army. He's, you know, he, he got a little scuffed up, maybe even got wounded, but maybe just got scuffed up somehow. And he's convinced by this system and by these sort of king vampire kind of grifters that his best way to live a full and a powerful life is to make sure he gets 100% disability. Well, how does that play out in real life? Well, here's how it plays out. He goes to church and he goes to church or a bar, hopefully church. And he wants to meet a nice girl, right? He goes to the. He sees a nice girl, he walks up to her and you know, hi, how are you? My name's David. And she says, oh, hi, David, nice to meet you, whatever. And she says, what do you do for a living? And it's a moment of truth, right? Because she's really asking if she's interested in dating. She's saying, can you protect me and my children? Can you protect me and our children in the future? Right, right. And so when he says, I'm a disabled veteran, I don't, I don't have a job, I'm a disabled veteran, she's going to say, oh, cool, thanks. Nice meeting you, David. Bye. You know, so he loses because the quality of his relationships are poorer. And if he's already married, here's what happens. The wife goes off to work, she's a schoolteacher, a dental hygienist or whatever. And the kids go off to school and their disabled veteran dad is sitting there on the couch drinking whiskey and eating Cheetos. And they come back eight hours later and the dad's still sitting on the couch eating whiskey and drinking whiskey and eating Cheetos. And her respect for her husband goes down and the children's respect for their father goes down. And he spent so much time convincing the government that he's broken, that this is the real tragedy here, Brent, that he believes it himself. He believes that he's broken. And instead of being the sort of pioneering spirit who's like providing for his family and having this positive, forward looking identity, he's saying, I'm disabled, I'm broken. Woe is me. I'm going to sit here with the shutters closed and then six months from now, he's going to go out in the garage and suck start a shotgun. And we're supposed to pretend to be surprised by that, right? I think the suicide. And there's good evidence of this, actually. I think that the suicide epidemic that we see among veterans is really a disempowerment epidemic that drives the suicide epidemic. And I think the disability system drives the disempowerment epidemic. And it's all very sad.

A (64:14)

I agree with you 100%. I've seen it. And again, this is gonna. The people who are gonna be most offended at this is. And I'll use it, in fact, I'll go back to your welfare example, which is, which is crazy because people are going to hear that and be upset.

B (64:34)

Sure.

A (64:34)

But that's, that's actually a great analogy. But that mean. That's exactly what. And people who are upset about people being fraudulent on the welfare system, we have it happening on, on our side too. And you can't point fingers over there and say how bad it is over there and then once, once it gets slewed over this way and the eyes on you. Oh, how dare you. I'm a veteran. And they'll stand on that like you can never be, you could never be questioned.

B (65:02)

Yeah. Because you're on the flag. Right, right. The hide behind the flag. They'll cover themselves up in the flag and say the flag will protect me because I serve my country. I was a, you know, you know, I'm here. And I don't care if you're in the army for 35 years and retired as a. The Command Sergeant Major of the army or whether you were a general or whether you're a private or a lieutenant or whatever. You sh. The sort of shield of righteousness that you think you have because you put on a uniform one time.

A (65:30)

We're not.

B (65:31)

I wasn't drafted. You weren't drafted. We like raised our hand. We said, I will work for the government.

A (65:36)

Salt.

B (65:37)

You're going to give me my paychecks. And if I get broken. Listen, when I have healthcare needs, I expect the government to take care of them. They broke me. They bought me on the health care side. But what I'm not okay with is the real thing that bothers me is this identity distorting thing that breaks families, breaks individuals and, and ultimately is it hurts the taxpayers. There's a lot of ways. Taxpayers are hurt all the time, as we all know from being taxpayers. But, but the real problem of the system is that it is. Is breaking young men and women and turning them into wards of the state, which I think is negative.

A (66:18)

Yeah. And like I said for the military veterans, we'll go in the comment section and, and they'll come after us. There'll be a lot of people. There's a lot of people that we do. I'm. You'll see here on the live, which will have already happened by the time you get. You guys see this. Our viewers are great. Our, we, we have a culture of hey, what's that? We try to set. And that's why we'll never be as big as others could be. And I'm fine with that. What's right is right. What's wrong is wrong. I don't care who does it either side. I'm not on a side. I'm on of that side. I'm on the side of right.

B (66:51)

Sure.

A (66:51)

So if some of the people who aren't familiar with my podcast want to come in here, get the, in the comments section and say how upset they are that we're bashing veterans, maybe you're one of those, those grifters. So did we touch a nerve? Because you know what we're saying is right. You're trying to protect the stuff system because it is a broken system. And just a couple points I want to touch at is, you know, you kind of talked about those lawyers who, who are helping. In my experience, you, you want to know who helped the most to create this system? Other veterans. Other. Not just. No, I shouldn't even say veterans. Other people in the military that are, that have. It's kind of getting passed along, like, almost like generational laws, John. Like, hey, I just got out. This is what I did. I said, I have tinnitus. I had people tell me this. They can't prove tinnitus. Just say you have tennis. That's 10%. Yeah, just say you have that.

B (67:48)

That's. As long as it's mildly bothersome.

A (67:50)

Yeah, just. These are the words you want to say. Like, we're giving each other the, the, the answers to the test, you know, to, to fraudulently pass it. And, and, and just, and if we're, if we're bold enough to say something about it, you're going to be mad at us.

B (68:06)

Yeah. Yeah. You know, there's a, there's a, It's a natural human thing that happens where if you're doing the wrong thing and your conscience is pricking you, but you can get other people to do the wrong thing with you now, your conscience is okay. Right, Right. So there's a whole lot of people out there who have claims that on their face are kind of silly. And as long as they can get other people to come along with them and, oh, make sure you document everything. And aren't your ears ringing? And don't you have a, you know, don't you have ptsd, whatever? If, if they can bring a whole lot of other people with them, then it soothes their own. You know, it sues their own sort of existential angst about what they're doing. But, you know, one of the things, I actually did a. Did a podcast a couple of months ago. I was actually on November 11th with these. With these two guys. And I didn't really know it at the time, but it turns out that one of them has a whole business coaching veterans how to get higher disability ratings. So he was not, he didn't. He didn't really like me much. He was super big mad at me. And, and, but it doesn't matter because the Internet's not a real place anyway. And then the, the other guy, I think, does this sort of thing, maybe as kind of like a volunteer or whatever. But they, they really seem to believe that once you serve, even for a day, that whatever you say for the rest of your life is legit. And they're like, one of the things they keep coming back to is like, but it's legal. It's right there in the code of federal regulations that if you have sleep apnea, you get 50%. Or if you have this, you get this rating. And what's legal and what's moral are two totally different things. So if you're on the left, I would just point out that capital punishment is legal. And you on the left probably think it's immoral. I don't, by the way. But. And if you're on the right, you know, you think that, you know, in many states, abortion is legal. And if you're on the right or in the.

A (70:08)

Really.

B (70:08)

Or if you're a Christian, you probably believe that. That abortion is immoral even though it's legal. So moral and legal are two different things. And so what. What I really would like for veterans to do is focus on what's moral and not. Not just what I can do, but what ought I to do, because those are different things.

A (70:28)

And I don't think. I wouldn't go back because. And you're right, what's. What's happened has happened and it's. And it's legal. Although I, I would. I would push back against that a little bit and saying, well, because some of these things you can't prove if you don't really have ptsd and you say you do, well, that's actually immoral and illegal. That is fraudulent claiming that because there's, there's some of these things you can't prove and they know what they're doing. So that is illegal. But I would say this. I wouldn't go back and, and, you know, retroactively. It's just, I'm just being realistic. Sweep the system. Take people's ratings array away. So settle down a little bit.

B (71:18)

Yeah, yeah, settle down. It's impossible.

A (71:21)

But moving forward, if you know something's wrong. Do something better moving forward. I don't. The sleep apnea. Right off the bat, I think we can all agree 50%. How do you know you don't have it because you're fat? How do you know you don't have it because you're old? How do you know? How do you know it if a CPAP cures it? Well, why do we then you're zero percent right.

B (71:42)

We'll give you a cpap.

A (71:43)

Right.

B (71:43)

We're not getting you paid and the. Not giving you the treatment and the payment for being sick. Right.

A (71:49)

It's just, it, it just. We have to do better moving forward.

B (71:53)

Yeah. And I think there are some positive things that we can say here, Brent, that I think hopefully people will, even the people who are big mad will agree are positive things. So here's what I think. I think that if you're, if we, if we take some of the fluff out of the system, if we take things that are, that would have occurred regardless of military service. So, you know, if you have a genetic condition, you know, here's an example, vitiligo, which is that thing where people lose pigmentation in their skin, most famously associated with Michael Jackson. But if people have vitiligo, that's a VA compensable disability, shockingly, even though there's no known cause and it has nothing to do with military service at all. Right. So there's things like that in the system that we could just take out and say, look, this is a genetic condition. This is part of living in a world that's marred by sin and gravity and aging and all these things. Take that stuff out, preserve the money, let the VA keep the money, but make the VA use that money for things that are positive, like reskill, upskill and transition. Like helping people start businesses like interest free loans to help veterans start or run businesses like job training, like marital counseling, like things that are going to make people's lives really better. Rather than putting what we, what I like to call a cash bandage over every wound, why don't we actually open up those wounds, heal them, and then the, the veteran can move on in a more positive space?

A (73:26)

I completely agree with that. We can reallocate sources and again, I'm not. Neither one of us are anti veteran support. We're anti fraudulent, we're anti grifters. In fact, if we could make a more perfect system, I would take that money and invest it even more into the people who really have problems is what I would do. Yeah. And for those that, that may think that, you know, the government is an infinite source of resources and money, so they don't really care. Like, well, what do I care? Just pay them. They served like they, they. They earned. This is a victimless crime. I, I'd also charge them with this. What, what the military right now that I believe the veteran community, if you will, is doing to the current military is a little. Is a net negative. Of course it is. And what I mean by that is I believe the older veterans that came out, sucked it up and became a.

B (74:43)

That became the greatest generation after the war was over.

A (74:46)

Right? That's right. After the war was over, they came back. They continued to. To give back to their country. They reintegrated. They were successful citizens and just worked hard and moved on with their life. This current generation of veterans has the American people looking at the military going, why would you want your son to go join this military? They're going to leave. They're going to be broken. They're going to be full of ptsd. They have all these problems. They're lazy. You know, everything is wrong with them because we did this. We have told the world everything was wrong with us. We're a broken toy. We're unfixable. And if that's the product, which you're lying about, if that's the product the military puts out, what they're done with you. Why would you want to hire a veteran? Why would you want. You want to know why we have a recruiting problem?

B (75:43)

Totally.

A (75:43)

Because that's what you've told America.

B (75:45)

Yeah. This is a long national security tale. So here's how that happens. Right. So parents, coaches, and teachers are the three most important groups that will determine whether or not a child is willing to join military service. And let's be honest, when we were 17 or 18 and we raised our right hand, we're children, you know, to some degree. Boy, I was a. I was a baby. I'm surprised my parents let me. But. But parents keep. Teachers and coaches are super important. And if they believe what they see in the media right now, then they think that their child is going to be raped, poisoned, or maimed just for having served. And they believe that their child is going to come out on the far side and be mentally ill and turn into, you know, a ward of the state. And who would want that for their child? Not me.

A (76:34)

Right.

B (76:34)

So I wouldn't want my kid to go into military service if that's what I believed. And veterans, as we reflect back on our service, I feel like we should Be proud of our service. If our service was honorable, we should tell others to serve. We should take advantage of the educational benefits and the healthcare and just feeling like we did something powerful for our country. But this continued way of thinking of veterans as just broken toys is hurting our recruiting. It's hurting our ability to generate forces for whatever comes next, whether it's, you know, World War 3 or decades of peace. But it's a real national security problem. It's not just a taxpayers being screwed problem.

A (77:24)

This is what I love about having you on, and it's this. We're not just saying these things. I know what you've done post military. You've been a very productive citizen. I'm post military, very productive citizen. I don't claim to have ptsd. I don't have a woe is me tail. I had bad days. I had bad days. Every now and again I have a bad dream. I can't control that. I have a bad dream and I wake up and I have to deal with it for a little bit and then. And I don't let it control me.

B (78:04)

Right.

A (78:04)

You know, it's. Anyone. You're in a car wreck and, and lose a friend in a car wreck, you may have a bad dream.

B (78:10)

Totally.

A (78:11)

Yeah, that's. Yeah. It's not, it's. It's nothing unusual.

B (78:15)

These are common. These things are common to the human condition.

A (78:18)

Right? Yeah.

B (78:19)

And it's, it's okay. It's okay to embrace the hardship and say, yeah, that was hard. It was really terrible. It was terrible when Dennis got killed. It was horrific. But it was also the kind of thing that happens in war, and then we move forward.

A (78:34)

And I've, I've had this conversation before, and one of this isn't a hit on who I had the conversation with, but, you know, I was talking about, hey, it's, it's a choice. And they hit me back with, well, I, I do. People are different. I, I do understand that. But they hit me back with, well, you were selected for your particular mindset. You were selected to be durable. And that's why, in a weird way,

B (79:06)

I get the same thing. You were an officer, so you had all these extra advantages, the officer privilege version of white privilege. And you were an elite soldier, so you were selected again and again and again, four positive traits. So it's no surprise that you still have positive traits.

A (79:24)

It's a good argument.

B (79:25)

It's not a bad one.

A (79:26)

But here we are, special operations and conventional forces having, and you had the worst day than I did. And you're handling it way better, I believe, than I would. So it doesn't have to do with being in special operations and dealing with things. It has to do with a mindset that any man is capable of having.

B (79:53)

Right, Right. You don't get to choose your circumstance. You only get to choose your response to your circumstance.

A (80:00)

Yeah.

B (80:01)

Right. So. So you know what I always tell people, And I've done some, you know, I've done some public speaking and things in the past, but I always tell people like, you have either had a hard day or you're going to have a hard day. And if you've already had a hard day, you're probably going to have another one. And so you only get to choose how you respond to that stuff, not whether or not you have to go through it. Because we all have to go through it. We're humans, and that's why we can lean on our faith and say, oh, my goodness, thank God that God is going to take care of us in the end. But for now, being human is hard. And it sucks a lot. It sucks a lot, a lot. And just because you've had a bad day doesn't mean you're not going to have another bad day. Just because you've got your leg blown off doesn't mean you're not going to, you know, get cancer or whatever.

A (80:48)

That's right. But you can choose to have a good day.

B (80:50)

Right.

A (80:50)

The next day is a new day.

B (80:52)

Right.

A (80:53)

I can. I'm telling you, I'm afraid we will. And that's not even a bad thing. I could talk to you for hours. There's so many things that we haven't even covered that. That I got from your book. It's just. It's amazing. Thank you so much for having the courage to do this. Where can they get your book?

B (81:12)

Well, it's on Amazon in electronic version. It's the Audible book I did myself, and it is really good.

A (81:20)

Yeah, I listen to the Audible book.

B (81:21)

It's on Kindle. I think they're actually sold out of hard copies because it was a pretty limited run. We're thinking about doing a revised and updated edition because this came out in 2021 and the PACT act and some other stuff has happened since then that actually compounds all this problem and makes it worse. So we could add a couple of chapters to it. But. But the book's available. I. I think the Audible is really good. And. And by the way, I'm not feathering my own nest here because, like, Jeff. Jeff Bezos takes all the money from Audible, I get like, I literally get like 25 cents per audible purchase. So I'm not feathering my own nest. I'm making an argument because I really do, you know, let me land the plane really quick. I care about veterans. I want veterans to thrive because I care about America and I want America to thrive. And what I see is a bad system trapping veterans in a non improved condition, not thriving, killing themselves and not contributing to the society. And I think that's a tragedy. And so I'm trying to avoid tragedy for our nation.

A (82:24)

Really, anyone who's listened this long and doesn't like necessarily what we're saying, this is, this is my challenge to you. And it truly is. You can run off of emotion and you can say, I don't like what they're saying, I just don't like it. And go in the comment section and say something negative. Or you could read Wounding warriors and hear what we did was just touch the wave tops on it. And you can hear all of the data, all the stories, what's really going on. And then you are more than happy to form whatever opinion you have after that, after reading the whole argument. Yeah, yeah, please do it. One last thing for you. Get out of here. And we got a. We got a life to do. This is where we can let loose about this subject a little bit. Tell me, tell me a funny story.

B (83:26)

So. So I got a. I got a chance because, because the other people who

A (83:31)

think like us, they're gonna be pretty mad right now.

B (83:33)

Okay?

A (83:33)

So we gotta, we gotta, we gotta bring them back around. Give us a funny story.

B (83:37)

So here's my funny story. So in 2015, I think it was, I got invited to be one of the Warrior 100 mountain bike riders with President Bush. And so I'm riding with President Bush, riding mountain bikes on his ranch. Actually, that year it wasn't on the ranchers at a place called Palo Duro Canyon and outside of Amarillo, Texas. Beautiful place. Like little mini Grand Canyon.

A (84:01)

It's beautiful.

B (84:02)

Anyway, so I'm riding bikes and I'm literally right behind the President of the United States. Former president. And he looks over his shoulder at me and he goes, hey, Dan. And I go, yes, sir. And he goes, mind if I fart? And I go, I go, no, sir, go ahead. He goes, good, because I already did. It was really great.

A (84:25)

That guy was far from perfect, let me tell you.

B (84:28)

He's a funny dude.

A (84:29)

I'd have a beer with that guy. I jump at the opportunity. He's just a genuine guy. He is. All right. Thank you so much, Daniel. Guys, please, please consider going reading his book and finding out a little bit more about the hard truth of the situation that we're in as veterans.

B (84:50)

Awesome.

A (84:51)

Thanks, brother. Really appreciate you coming.

B (84:52)

Totally thanks for having me.