Inside To Die For

Summary

Podcast Summary: Inside To Die For

Podcast Information:

• Title: To Die For
• Host/Author: Tenderfoot TV and iHeartPodcasts
• Description: A deep dive into the clandestine world of Russian intelligence through the eyes of Aaliyah Roza, a self-proclaimed "sex spy." Host Neil Strauss navigates the perilous realms of sexpionage, exploring the psychological manipulation and trauma endured by those trained to serve as human weapons.
• Episode: Inside To Die For
• Release Date: August 20, 2024

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1. Introduction

The episode "Inside To Die For" features an in-depth conversation between Laura from Inside Tenderfoot TV and Neil Strauss, the creator and host of the podcast series "To Die For." The discussion delves into the intricate process behind the creation of the podcast, the challenges faced, and the profound stories uncovered.

2. Host's Reluctance and Storytelling Approach

Initial Reluctance: Neil Strauss begins by expressing his hesitation to participate in the interview. He reveals his discomfort with revealing the behind-the-scenes magic that makes his storytelling effective.

"I'm not a fan of pulling back the curtain on that and breaking the spell." [01:54]

Storytelling Philosophy: He likens the podcast creation process to assembling a garage band, emphasizing the collaborative effort and creative freedom that distinguishes Tenderfoot podcasts from more formulaic productions.

"There's something about the storytelling, I think in this podcast and in so many Tenderfoot podcasts that makes it work." [02:50]

3. Production Process

Collaborative Effort: Neil outlines the team behind "To Die For," highlighting key contributors such as Tristan Bankston, Donald Albright, Payne Lindsay (producers), Mavs (composer), and Dayton Cole (audio mixing).

"It's sort of like it's sort of a band... It's really like a garage band that puts this together." [02:50]

Creative Freedom: He praises Tenderfoot for allowing storytellers the liberty to present narratives organically rather than adhering to restrictive formulas, fostering more authentic and compelling stories.

"There's a lot of creative freedom within it to tell the story in the way that the story wants to be told versus other podcast companies that seem to have a formula." [03:39]

4. Interviewing Aaliyah: Expectations vs. Reality

Initial Expectations: Neil shares his initial perception of Aaliyah Roza, anticipating a spy thriller akin to a real-life "spy movie."

"I really just thought it was gonna be like a spy movie, but real life." [04:05]

Shift to Trauma and Healing: However, the narrative took a profound turn towards themes of trauma, healing, and the predatory nature of the military system she was entrenched in.

"The biggest danger was being a woman in a military system run by these predatory men with no accountability or consequences." [04:36]

5. Trauma-Informed Interviewing

Creating a Safe Space: Neil emphasizes the importance of trauma-informed interviewing, ensuring that Aaliyah felt safe to share her harrowing experiences without retraumatization.

"We were able to create a safe space for her to really share her story." [05:04]

Peace Model and Psychological First Aid: He discusses utilizing frameworks like the Peace Model and concepts from the World Health Organization's "Psychological First Aid" to support Aaliyah during the storytelling process.

"The importance is creating a safe, supportive environment that at least prevents them from being traumatized further while really allowing them to tell their story with their truth." [05:04]

6. Validating Narratives and Expert Contributions

Layered Narratives: Neil explores the concept of narratives existing on three layers: objective events, remembered events, and the version told to others. He highlights the complexity of discerning truth within personal stories.

"Everybody has three forms of narrative... what really happened objectively, what we remember happening, and what we tell other people." [11:13]

Expert Insights: To substantiate and provide deeper context to Aaliyah's story, Neil incorporated insights from various experts, including Robin Dreek, Holly McKay (war reporter), and Russian mafia analysts. This approach ensured that the podcast not only told a personal story but also educated listeners on broader geopolitical and psychological themes.

"I had him confirm it, and then he became such a great expert to call on throughout the podcast." [23:37]

7. Social Media and Information Weaponization

Weaponizing Narratives: Neil discusses the alarming ways in which information can be manipulated to create societal divisions, drawing parallels to tactics employed by state actors like Russia to destabilize countries from within.

"For a government that wants to take down the US the best way to do it is from the inside." [30:14]

Advice for Listeners: He advises listeners to expand their peer groups, engage with diverse perspectives, and seek information from reliable, ground-level sources to counteract the divisive effects of manipulated online narratives.

"Expand your peer group, talk to more people who you disagree with to understand and empathize with other perspectives and get your information from the streets." [32:01]

8. Personal Impact and Future Directions

Educational Journey: Working on "To Die For" profoundly impacted Neil, deepening his understanding of Russian intelligence, trauma, and the unglamorous reality of sexpionage.

"I understand that sexpionage is not sexy... it's actually almost always traumatic for those experiencing them." [33:52]

Vision for the Future: Neil expresses a desire to explore broader systemic issues in future projects, contemplating how collective actions and widespread behaviors can lead to significant societal impacts, beyond individual stories.

"What happens when you have 100,000 people doing something to a million people? So that to me is the next true crime podcast I want to do." [37:14]

9. Conclusion

Lasting Outcome: The primary goal of "To Die For" is to foster a deeper understanding of Russia, cultivate empathy for those affected by trauma, and encourage listeners to care about others through their narratives.

"A deeper understanding of Russia, a deeper empathy for trauma and women's experience there, and hopefully just really just caring about other people through their stories." [33:04]

Listener Engagement: Neil invites listeners to provide feedback, underscoring the importance of audience interaction in shaping future content.

"Feel free to contact me on social media or through Tenderfoot. I'd love to hear your thoughts overall." [37:35]

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• "I'm not a fan of pulling back the curtain on that and breaking the spell." – Neil Strauss [01:54]
• "There's something about the storytelling... that makes it work." – Neil Strauss [02:50]
• "The biggest danger was being a woman in a military system run by these predatory men with no accountability or consequences." – Neil Strauss [04:36]
• "We were able to create a safe space for her to really share her story." – Neil Strauss [05:04]
• "Everybody has three forms of narrative... what really happened objectively, what we remember happening, and what we tell other people." – Neil Strauss [11:13]
• "For a government that wants to take down the US the best way to do it is from the inside." – Neil Strauss [30:14]
• "Expand your peer group, talk to more people who you disagree with to understand and empathize with other perspectives and get your information from the streets." – Neil Strauss [32:01]
• "I understand that sexpionage is not sexy... it's actually almost always traumatic for those experiencing them." – Neil Strauss [33:52]
• "What happens when you have 100,000 people doing something to a million people? So that to me is the next true crime podcast I want to do." – Neil Strauss [37:14]
• "A deeper understanding of Russia, a deeper empathy for trauma and women's experience there, and hopefully just really just caring about other people through their stories." – Neil Strauss [33:04]

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Key Takeaways

1. Authentic Storytelling: Neil Strauss emphasizes the importance of genuine, trauma-informed storytelling that prioritizes the well-being of the interviewee over sensationalism.

2. Collaborative Production: The success of "To Die For" stems from a collaborative team that values creative freedom and nuanced narrative construction.

3. Complex Narratives: Understanding personal stories requires dissecting multiple layers of narrative, from objective facts to personal memories and socially presented versions.

4. Impact of Information Warfare: The podcast sheds light on how state actors can manipulate narratives and social media to sow discord and internalize societal divisions.

5. Empathy and Understanding: By sharing Aaliyah's harrowing experiences, the podcast aims to foster empathy and a deeper understanding of the human cost behind espionage and intelligence operations.

6. Future Directions: Neil aspires to explore larger systemic issues in future projects, seeking to understand and narrate the collective actions that shape societies.

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Conclusion: "Inside To Die For" offers a compelling glimpse into the making of a podcast that transcends typical true crime narratives. Through Neil Strauss's reflections, listeners gain insight into the meticulous, empathetic approach required to tell stories fraught with trauma and deception. The episode not only highlights the intricacies of producing such a profound series but also encourages a broader contemplation of how narratives shape our understanding of complex geopolitical and psychological landscapes.

Transcript

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[Neil Strauss]

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[Neil Strauss]

Of To Die for are available now to binge absolutely free, but for ad free listening and exclusive bonuses. Subscribe to Tenderfoot [e-mail] or on Apple Podcasts.

[Laura]

Hi, everyone, and welcome to inside TenderFit TV. Today, we're going inside to Die for, and I'm sitting down with award winning author and journalist Neil Strauss, who's the creator and host of To Die For. I like, I imagine many of you went on quite a journey with this show and I'm really looking forward to sitting down with him, talking to him about some of the behind the scenes that might be a little unexpected for listeners, and hearing more about his process and journey in building this show and telling Aaliyah's story. So without further ado, welcome Neil, to Inside Tenderfoot tv and let's dive into it.

[Neil Strauss]

Awesome. Thanks for having me on. Laura, I didn't tell you before we talked, but I definitely have a lot of reluctance to do this interview and I'm going to tell you why. Yeah, so I think when we create a podcast, we're almost trying to create this magic spell that when you listen to it, you're just drawn into the story through voice, through music, through the reporting. I'm not a fan of pulling back the curtain on that and breaking the spell. And it's not like it's magic, but there's something about the storytelling, I think in this podcast and in so many Tenderfoot podcasts that makes it work. And I just, I don't like demystifying it, but I'm gonna do this and we'll See how it goes. No one has to listen. Stop now if you don't want to ruin it.

[Laura]

Well, thank you for going out on a limb, then. This is actually a great segue into your process working on this show in general. Can you talk a little bit about the production process itself and how you went about building To Die For?

[Neil Strauss]

Yeah, it's sort of like it's sort of a band. And the band is myself, Tristan Bankston, who worked on the second season of To Live and Die in la with me, Donald Albright, and Payne Lindsay as the producers. And then makeup and vanity set mavs, who is the composer. And then there's Dayton Cole, who mixes it and makes it sound great. It's really like a garage band that puts this together. And one of the reasons I do these with Tenderfoot is that there's a lot of creative freedom within it to tell the story in the way that the story wants to be told versus other podcast companies that seem to have a formula. And I hear so many frustrated creators where they are not able to share their experience because it has to be ground into the formula.

[Laura]

Well, and with a story like Aleeyah's, I imagine there was so much discovery as you went through the process of talking to her that I couldn't even imagine trying to put her story into a formula. Can you share kind of what the journey was like for you from what you expected at the beginning when you first heard about Aaliyah, met her, and then just how things might have shifted over time in the process of interviewing her?

[Neil Strauss]

Yeah, I think from meeting Aaliyah and the way she showed up at that first meeting, I really just thought it was gonna be like a spy movie, but real life. And instead it was really about trauma and healing and her own experiences. The biggest danger wasn't the enemy, the foreign country. The biggest danger was being a woman in a military system run by these predatory men with no accountability or consequences.

[Laura]

As a listener coming in with no expectations and no background, I was really surprised by the shift, like the. From the first episode, kind of the expectations I had to then where you end up. I really appreciated, actually, that you talked about trauma informed interviewing, and I'm very curious to learn more about that. Can you talk a little bit about the training that you did for this interview process and how that was different from other interviews you've conducted in the past?

[Neil Strauss]

Sure. I think that the interview was also not what Aaliyah expected. I think she expected the sizzle, glam stuff. And partly through studying trauma informed interviewing, we were able to create a safe space for her to really share her story. And I think that so much of healing is through sharing and being heard and being seen and being understood. And so as we started to realize that this was a story of not survival from people shooting at you, but survival from predatory, exploitative men in power, I realized I needed to really be thoughtful about the way I spoke to her and to be conscious of the experiences she's been through. So I studied trauma informed interviewing from a few places I got certified. In it, there's something called the peace model for interviewing I looked into. And there's a great book for the World Health Organization called Psychological First Aid. That's great. And the importance is creating a safe, supportive environment that at least prevents them from being traumatized further while really allowing them to tell their story with their truth. Even throughout this, I went beyond the process and making sure that she's getting support throughout the process she needed. And I think she always said her memories were locked in Pandora's box. I think she even says it on the podcast. There's a saying, what we repress controls us. Right. The further we repress it, it's like pushing back on a spring that eventually that's just going to snap. And so whatever we're repressing eventually takes over, because that's how force works. But however, if we can set them free in a sense, to let them out in a way while we're getting healing, while we're getting support at the same time and integrate them, I guess integration is the word. We can lessen the charge and the power they have over her. And unexpectedly, that's part of what the process created for Aliyah.

[Laura]

That's really awesome. Is there anything that you've taken from that training that you've actually incorporated into your day to day life? Not just in an interview setting?

[Neil Strauss]

For sure. For sure. I mean, think about it. For being a parent, right? As a parent.

[Laura]

Yeah.

[Neil Strauss]

Active empathic listening, valuing someone's feelings and experiences, not being judgmental. All those things make you a great parent or a great partner that allow you to be really present for someone else's reality. There's a quote I love that says listening is so close to being loved that some people can't tell the difference.

[Laura]

Oh, I love that.

[Neil Strauss]

Yeah, it's great, right? So I think about that all the time.

[Laura]

That's really beautiful.

[Neil Strauss]

So it's a part of the trauma. Informed listening was not about sitting down. And we did a lot of due diligence at the beginning as far as Aaliyah's story. But in the end, it wasn't to put her story on trial, to put her narrative on trial. I thought maybe at the beginning that was a possibility, but by the end, it really felt that that's not the job of this podcast. It's to really give someone the space to tell their story and to listen for the human being underneath it.

[Laura]

That actually sort of points to something that I did want to ask you about. Cause you talk in the beginning about this dynamic of her using certain tactics that pickup artists had used and that you had this kind of fear of being played. And by the end of it, that's kind from the tone of the podcast and from the tone of her telling her story. And I would love to know if there was, you know, a moment that you shifted over from what's going on, is she for real? Into this is definitely real. That was a very leading question.

[Neil Strauss]

But so I was curious about that question, so I called this on the podcast. I called Chris Voss, who's a good friend, has helped with the other podcasts, who is the famous FBI negotiator. And he wrote the book Never Split the Difference. And Chris, I said, how many times have people asked you to prove whether you were really in the FBI or not? You just say it, who knows? And he goes, never. Maybe once someone jokingly at a bar, but that's it. I'm like, well, how interesting is this that here's a woman saying this and presenting herself in a glamorous way on Instagram. And all of a sudden everyone's, prove it. You're lying, you're fake. And would it be the same? It was a male in a suit who presented another way. And I don't think it would be. And so I thought, I don't want to be part of that, part of the culture. And this speaks to creating a safe space. We got to know who she really is. And at the end, she literally says, I create this fake world and this fake life on Instagram because, A, I want to please my father and show him that I was a success in life. And so there's still that child trying to please the parents. So many of us have this on some degree, right? Our family message becomes what we think our life purpose is. The second thing also is just feeling like she won. When you go through these really disempowering experiences, there's a need to empower yourself and to feel empowered, because so often in these stories, there isn't a happy ending. And so maybe we make one or create one or do something that allows us to go on living.

[Laura]

Right. Yeah. And I really appreciated in the. I think it was the final episode, you brought her therapist back in and she talked about that. She talked about the aspirational element of social media, which, to be honest, as a listener, kind of blew my mind open because we do employ all these judgments and all this kind of criticism to how people present online. And it was really interesting to have that perspective brought in of look at this through a trauma lens. So, yeah, I just wanted to call that out and give you kudos and give the whole team kudos because it was really cool to have a perspective shift.

[Neil Strauss]

I also think in terms of narratives, it's interesting to hear. Read the reviews, for example. I really love reading the reviews, positive or negative. They give me really valuable tips, data. I really look at reviews as a valuable source of feedback about what's working and what's not working. And I thought a lot about narrative during the telling of this. And I think everybody has three forms of narrative. They're telling or there's three forms of truth in any story. One layer is what really happened, what a camera would have recorded if a camera was there. The second layer is what we remember happening. Some people are really extreme in the stories they tell themselves. Other people are semi close to the truth. Other people are always the hero in their own story. Other people are always the victim in their own story. Other people are always the one who's forgotten about, always the one who led the group. People have their own way of their own filter through which they see themselves or almost need to see themselves to prop their ego up. So there's what really happened, objectively, what we remember happening. And then the third layer is then what we tell other people. And that layer is that mask we wear for social acceptance. And some people, that second and third layer are close. Some people, they're more distant. So every story has those three layers, no matter what.

[Laura]

Right, Right.

[Neil Strauss]

And the question is, what is the gulf of separation between those three layers? And maybe when we're do an investigation or something, we're trying to figure that out. Right. So a witness may have a false memory and the perpetrator may straight up be putting on the mask. So I find memory, story, narrative really fascinating. And Ali is sort of like a very lightning rod for this in some ways because she shows on Instagram things that really aren't real.

[Laura]

Right, right. Oh, that's so interesting.

[Neil Strauss]

And those are all the things that kind of went on in my head through this, just trying to see the humanity in people instead of objectifying them.

[Laura]

Right? Absolutely. Yeah. And especially when you're talking to somebody who's so much of their experience has been acting as an object. Right. Being objectified and. Yeah. I just. I don't even know what to say.

[Neil Strauss]

What were you about to say?

[Laura]

I just appreciate that nuance and I appreciate, you know, pointing out compassion as the first lens that you look at anyone through, I think is. It's so important. And like you're saying, we live in a very judgmental world. And definitely for me as a listener, like, there is this tension between that presentational element and then the vulnerability of her story. And like I said, I'm really glad you took a full 16 episodes and the story shifted as much as it did because it felt like these layers. And I definitely had doubts that I think a lot of people shared in the beginning because it's natural to be a little bit uncertain. And then by the time Aaliyah's like, really, she gets very emotional, you know, and I was amazed at the journey that she took, that I felt like I could follow along with her as she opened up. And it was just really powerful.

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[Laura]

So what was the timeline of recording? And you said you had about 30 or 40 hours of raw interview, Maybe more.

[Neil Strauss]

Wow. Maybe more.

[Laura]

Wow.

[Neil Strauss]

Yeah, I'm a super thorough interviewer in the sense that I really do, because I care. I really want to know everything, whether we use it or not. And so a year and a half ago, I think it was January, was when I first met her. And then we got together, we discussed doing the podcast. I talked to Donald at Tenderfoot about it, and then we just started recording, just her story and. And sitting down, day after day and time and time again. And sometimes when she'd share these stories, it got so quiet you could hear a pin dropping. And that's why I tried this experiment on episode 15. I don't know if you noticed when you're listening, I'm curious if you did. On episode 15, I did no voiceover. I just let her tell her story without any interruption. And only at the end did I say, you've been listening to chapter this, episode this. And so I wanted just to hear her voice, let her speak, and just stay out of it. And I think most people listening may not have missed me.

[Laura]

I didn't consciously notice that, but I'm sure that I noticed it in part of observing this shift, you know, like, that's definitely a deepening of her presence, I guess, which is an odd word to use, but it felt like she got more and more present.

[Neil Strauss]

Yeah. And I felt like I really, when I do these as a storyteller, I try to think what hasn't been done, and I've never heard. So for Tristan and I, it was like a really exciting experiment, I think, on a deeper level, discussing trauma, informed interviewing and everything we said, just allowing someone to tell their story without jumping in and explaining.

[Laura]

So you started a year and a half ago, you said. So was the interview process over three months, six months longer? You talked about taking a break for a while when she was going through a really intense moment in therapy.

[Neil Strauss]

Yeah. The interview process probably went on the whole time. So what you heard in the last episode was recorded in the week or two before the last episode dropped.

[Laura]

Oh, wow.

[Neil Strauss]

And that's the other thing I love about the podcast I've done with Tenderfoot is they're all very live and in the moment. Like with the first season of To Live and Die in la, that investigation was ongoing, even with the police, as each episode is coming out.

[Laura]

Right.

[Neil Strauss]

There were parts. I don't want to say anything if people haven't listened, but there were parts where very intense things happened, and those literally happened between one week of the podcast and the next week.

[Laura]

I mean, it feels very alive, so it translates to the storytelling component of it as a recorded piece. As well.

[Neil Strauss]

Exactly. And I think there's an element of that, that just. That transfers into it, of it being very alive and being very present. I used to be a music critic in the New York Times, so I'd see bands play, and when the band stopped getting along and still played this music, it didn't sound as good anymore. It's the same songs, the same notes, the same lyrics, and yet, because it's not alive in them, it ends up sounding lifeless.

[Laura]

Given the kind of top secret nature of a lot of what she's talking about. I know that, you know, Aaliyah changes the names of people and doesn't really disclose exact people, places, things in a way that I guess would be incriminating, but she is speaking out about this system that is very corrupt at a time that political tensions are very high. I'm curious to hear, you know, if she expressed any concerns about her safety as she was going deeper into this story and kind of unveiling more. And also if you experienced any internal concerns around being present within this kind of espionage world that she's talking about, that's also very alive, very much true.

[Neil Strauss]

So I definitely think that. I don't know why I do this, but I think everything I do, a lot of what I've done in the past, there's a danger element. If you're outing a murderer or someone who conspired with the murderer. There's a danger.

[Laura]

Absolutely.

[Neil Strauss]

I've done books with really dangerous people, projects on really dangerous things that I absolutely should not be doing. And so for sure, while I was doing this, especially at the beginning, I had a lot of nervousness. She had some nervousness. And however, I think it's interesting, especially with this podcast, seeing the narratives people tell versus the truth. And the idea is, well, if she's talking about this, she'd be killed. And I think her thought was, all this stuff happened around the year 2000. I'm not mentioning names. I'm not revealing state secrets. I'm not saying anti Putin, anti Ukraine war things. Maybe a touch, but nothing more than everyone else is saying. And so I'm not a threat to power. It's different than other people who are speaking out with the intent to overthrow Putin or overthrow the regime or create systemic change there. So I think her thought was, because I'm not revealing sensitive information, because I'm not a threat to what's happening, it's okay. And there are other former KGB agents who speak out, who've written books. Jack Barsky is one of them, who's out here and doing podcasts, and that's okay. So I think her thought was, I'm just talking about stuff that people don't talk about, but I'm not sharing something that's a threat to those currently in power. I think, if anything, everyone else on the podcast who I interviewed as guest was more negative about things and revealed more. And through all these voices and experts, I really feel like the listener and myself learned so much about Russia and the Russian mafia and the Russian military and the way of thinking Putin has. So I feel like it was such an education for me researching all the context. I probably, like, consumed at least 10, 20 history books along the way.

[Laura]

Yeah, absolutely. Can you talk a little bit about how you found the people that you brought onto the show? Because I loved having all of these experts pop in, and I felt like you did a great job of. Whenever Aaliyah would say something that was kind of hard to believe at first, you know, like, you would immediately bring in somebody who would back that up and be like, yes, these actually structures do exist, or this is something that we know happens. How did you find the people that you ended up bringing in as these experts?

[Neil Strauss]

First of all, thanks for saying that. I really did feel that there were. Each episode ended up having a theme, and then I wanted a deeper understanding of that theme. So whether it was bringing in Holly McKay, a war reporter, to talk about women's treatment in the Russian military, or bringing in the different Russian mafia experts to talk about that, literally when you talk about the Russian government, you talk about the mafia, you're kind of talking about the same thing. That was just shocking. It was shocking. But it's funny, because when it sounded incredible that the Russian is training these seducers, I realized that having written that book, the Game, many years ago, that I forgot or didn't make the connection until I started thinking about it, that the FBI had brought me in many years ago to train them in seduction. And that could sound preposterous. However, I called someone who was there at that training, Robin Dreek, and just had him confirm I was there, because that's a hard one to swallow.

[Laura]

And you didn't trust your memory because it might have been changed over time.

[Neil Strauss]

Exactly. So I had him confirm it, and then he became such a great expert to call on throughout the podcast. So while you're working on a project or while I'm working on a project, I try to talk about it everywhere I go with everyone I meet, because you never know when a resource is going to Pop up. And so I'd be out at a conference and meet someone who used to be in the CIA. And I'd say, what do you know about these Russian swallows? And he'd tell me something. It'd be great. Can I call you back about 20 that? I mean, my transcriber who was transcribing the audio said, oh, my God. I used to work for a secret aerospace program where they trained us and warned us about these type of women. So I think by just putting your antenna out there, all of a sudden the information starts coming to you. And sometimes, of course, if I couldn't find someone, say, an expert on poisonings, I'd just research online and try to find some great people to interview. But I was so grateful for those speakers because they brought such important context to it. And I think that was part of the narrative is just you're learning so much and not even realizing you're learning it.

[Laura]

Absolutely. Are you allowed to share anything about your training with the FBI in seduction? Or is that.

[Neil Strauss]

Yeah, I think I can train it. No, I asked them. I asked them and they said I can share it. I just can't share where I went to do the training.

[Laura]

All right.

[Neil Strauss]

So basically what they do is the same as a seduction, but just the outcome is different. So the outcome is not a relationship or a romantic experience or a physical experience. Their outcome is, how do I get this person to be an informant on their boss?

[Laura]

Ah, okay.

[Neil Strauss]

How do I get this person to work for our government instead of that? But the process is the same, which is you're meeting someone, you're building trust, you're trying to understand what their value system is. You can speak to them in terms of what their values are. And then when you've built enough trust and rapport and connection, you're starting to plant the seed for the offer you're making. So what I discovered was there's really very little difference. And these pickup artists who I wrote about in the game because they did it so much, had as sophisticated knowledge of human behavior as. As the FBI's Behavioral Analysis Unit. These guys are talking to whatever, five, 10, 15 people a night versus you have one target, and that's a one year project or something, or a three year project. So it was very surreal. It was very surreal. It's definitely the last thing I expected when I wrote that book. But then it made me realize it's not ludicrous. A government will do any means necessary that they can get away with to accomplish their objective.

[Laura]

Right, right. Like you said it's studying human behavior more than seducing. Almost like seducing is the word, but yeah.

[Neil Strauss]

And at the same time, like in the past for other projects, I've interviewed government psychics who were trained by the government to do spying as psychic spies. Literally. That's like a real thing. It's not a conspiracy theory. It's called remote viewing.

[Laura]

Remote viewing. Yeah. I remember reading about that and thinking it was just so interesting.

[Neil Strauss]

Yeah, I went and got trained by the guys to learn how to remote view.

[Laura]

Cool.

[Neil Strauss]

Yeah.

[Laura]

That should be another podcast.

[Neil Strauss]

That should be another podcast. It was awesome. So the point being is any government will try anything to see what works, whether it's seduction or esp.

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[Laura]

So with Aaliyah and with the pickup artists that you'd, you know, worked with and interviewed, were there any times when she talked about these tactics that were either really similar or really different from the pickup artist tactics that you'd been familiar with before?

[Neil Strauss]

Yeah, it was super weird because she'd be talking about things that she was doing a seduction techniques, and I was like, oh, wow. This was exactly what the pickup artists were doing. It was the exact same period of time, the early 2000s.

[Laura]

Wow. Interesting. We were talking off mic for a second and I was mentioning to Neil that there was Actually a question that has been on my mind that I didn't wanna put him on the spot about. And he said put me on the spot. So one thing that came up for me a lot in listening to this podcast and learning about the way that information has been used by Russia to essentially, you know, brainwash and radicalize people, I was really reflecting a lot on what I've been seeing happening in the US And I was hesitant to ask this question because I don't want it to be a divisive or super politicized question. But I'm curious if you in the process of learning about how Russia's government works and how information can be used to kind of weaponize people against one another, if you reflected on that in the U.S. and you know, have any observations about that kind of radicalized thinking that Aliyah talks so much about?

[Neil Strauss]

For sure, there's a fault line in our society and. And I think everyone can agree on that. And that for a government that wants to take down the US the best way to do it is from the inside. And again, there's interviews with Russian defectors who've been saying this for years, going back to and again haven't been killed. It's so much easier to destroy a country from the inside and everybody fighting each other and not focusing on the external. So it's 100% happening. And even Aaliyah said, and also someone I talked to from the CIA said as well that there's so many people over here and that's their job is to do this sort of there's even a name for it, but to do this kind of sabotage from the inside. And so I think I really learned that A, there are a lot of people we meet who are just ordinary people living here who report back to handlers and talk about what they're hearing. They're called eyes and hears. They other people here who are actively creating relationships with other people in power and putting these ideas in their head and fanning the flames of division and discontent and then. Absolutely. Their softwares and armies of individuals who are creating this on social media. It's such an effective way to hurt a country from the inside. And no one checks. You see these news reports that are covering an issue and they just quote Twitter accounts, not even knowing if these are real people or what's called sock puppet accounts.

[Laura]

Right. Especially with our election cycle. What do you recommend for people to, I guess be aware, but not necessarily be completely afraid of what you just said?

[Neil Strauss]

I asked someone who runs a social media company what countries were responsible for the most fake propaganda accounts and fake sabotage accounts. And the three were, not surprisingly, China, Iran, and Russia. But even if they're real people, it's only a specific kind of person who posts a lot of negativity on social media. I haven't met you, Laura, but I know you don't. And so what you're hearing is A, people who are working out their trauma through social media, or B, countries that are working out their domination plan through social media. And my advice as the antidote is expand your peer group, talk to more people who you disagree with to understand and empathize with other perspectives and get your information from the streets, not from a place where anyone can create an account and post anything provocative.

[Laura]

Yeah, absolutely. Thank you. It's good advice. I have a couple kind of wrap up questions.

[Neil Strauss]

Sure.

[Laura]

So what do you hope will be the lasting outcome of this show?

[Neil Strauss]

I think that the intention, the goal is a deeper understanding of Russia, a deeper empathy for trauma and women's experience there, and hopefully just really just caring about other people through their stories. I think the third thing is just there's something about telling a compelling story that takes place in a world that no one else has been to that enriches us all and gives us greater empathy. So maybe that's the point.

[Laura]

That's really beautiful. Is there anything that you've noticed that feels like a lasting impact of working on the show for you? Like, did this change you in any way that you've been able to put your finger on yet?

[Neil Strauss]

I think exactly what I just said is what it did for me that I see. I understand history in a way I never did before. I understand government intelligence in a way I never did before. I understand that these. Let me try to say this, because we haven't voiced this, but that sexionage is not sexy, that we want to make things sexy that are actually almost always traumatic for those experiencing them. And so I think that was another big takeaway that we wanna glamorize some of these things that. And to live them. It's not very glamorous.

[Laura]

Yeah, absolutely. Is there anyone that you think really needs to hear this podcast or a specific listener you kind of had in mind while you were sculpting it?

[Neil Strauss]

I mean, I think Aaliyah's father needs to hear that so he can see the damage he's done. And so many parents do this. There was something I said at the very end, and it was that these are the results of growing up in a totalitarian system. Whether It's a country or a family. Because many people living in so called free countries grew up in a totalitarian system which was a parent or parents whose word was the law, who didn't respect your needs, who wanted it their way or no way, who always had to be right. And so understanding that some of us have grown up in not just countries like this, but families like this can help us better understand ourselves. So I sort of put that in the end because I think the damage came not just from the country, but from a father who's. It doesn't matter what you want to be, you're going to be what I want you to be. And that is so repressive of the spirit of an individual. It's like stepping on a plant and saying you're not going to grow, right?

[Laura]

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I think that's really valuable. And there's so many. Something that I've learned working at Tenderfoot and being, you know, adjacent to a lot of the shows that we put out there is exactly what you're saying is you never know where someone has come from and what kind of environment they grew up in or what kinds of stories they have, just behind the masks that we put on every day.

[Neil Strauss]

Yeah. And I think that's the hardest thing as a creator of any of these shows is when you. That people have a filter through which they see the world and it's like this or it's not like that, and they're convinced of it 100% and nothing you could say do, no story you can tell will change their mind. That's just the way it is. That's how people are. That's how that person is. And I think it's not just a sad way to live, but a dangerous way to live. And I think that it's a slippery slope from that to war or genocide when we start to feel like we're right and other groups of people are wrong. And so I think somehow my next Tenderfoot podcast to close on, I think a lot of these podcasts are about one person did something to another person or one person something to 10 or 20 people. But what happens when you have 100,000 people doing something to a million people? So that to me is the next true crime podcast I want to do. And instead of maybe rescuing one person or giving one family closure, is there some way we can do this on a broader scale?

[Laura]

That's really beautiful. Thank you so much for sharing that vision with us and just so much about the show and about Aleeyah and your journey with it, and I could pick your brain for 30 more hours, I'm sure. But we'll go ahead and wrap up. Is there anything else that you'd like to share with everybody before we go?

[Neil Strauss]

No. If you're listening to this episode, that probably means you listen to all the rest of the episodes. So I want to just thank you for listening. Feel free to contact me on social media or through Tenderfoot. I'd love to hear your thoughts overall. And also, I really want to know, did this episode ruin the podcast for you or did it support and help your listening and understanding of the podcast? I truly mean that because that'll allow me to do less or more of these in the future.

[Laura]

Awesome. And you heard it from him. He reads the comments, he takes them to heart, he collects the data. It will definitely be taken to heart.

[Neil Strauss]

Yeah. So thank you Laura for a great interview and for listening and asking great questions.

[Laura]

Yeah, thank you for doing this, especially because it was something that you were resistant to and I really loved it.

[Neil Strauss]

Foreign.

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